NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.claybennett.com/images/archivetoons/labor_day_2001.jpg

Well, Labor Day is just around the corner in the US. We get to be thankful for all the workplace struggles that won us the 40 hour work week, the right to collective bargaining, decent wages and safe working conditions by generally forgetting that the struggles ever happened.

When you think about it, Labor Day is the most emasculated holiday in the entire US. We aren't taught in school what it represents, and indeed, when we do study unions in school, they are usually portrayed negatively. Everyone celebrates Labor Day, even the business owners who historically were so dead set against labor struggles. But, so few really know what it represents.

Now it's time to fight for the 20-hour workweek! :D

And here I thought it had something to do with giving birth.

:p

Well, Labor Day is just around the corner in the US. We get to be thankful for all the workplace struggles that won us the 40 hour work week, the right to collective bargaining, decent wages and safe working conditions by generally forgetting that the struggles ever happened.

When you think about it, Labor Day is the most emasculated holiday in the entire US. We aren't taught in school what it represents, and indeed, when we do study unions in school, they are usually portrayed negatively. Everyone celebrates Labor Day, even the business owners who historically were so dead set against labor struggles. But, so few really know what it represents.

Everyone loves Labor day. Its a time to grill out and get trashed. At least thats what I do every year...

All the struggles that made us work more than the Euros, and get far fewer vacations.

Now it's time to fight for the 20-hour workweek! :D

And the $20/hr for min wage! -orgasms to the thought of being paid 20 bucks an hour-

http://www.claybennett.com/images/archivetoons/labor_day_2001.jpg

Well, Labor Day is just around the corner in the US. We get to be thankful for all the workplace struggles that won us the 40 hour work week, the right to collective bargaining, decent wages and safe working conditions by generally forgetting that the struggles ever happened.

When you think about it, Labor Day is the most emasculated holiday in the entire US. We aren't taught in school what it represents, and indeed, when we do study unions in school, they are usually portrayed negatively. Everyone celebrates Labor Day, even the business owners who historically were so dead set against labor struggles. But, so few really know what it represents.

I know what it means and it should not be a federal holiday. A day of recognition yes but a holiday? no.

Labor day is when I can't wear my sandals anymore :(

Please explain.

Labor day is when I can't wear my sandals anymore :(

Also, school starts right after, so it's literally the end of all my lazy days of summer.

In some districts, school has already started. Sucks for them :D

Labor day is when I can't wear my sandals anymore :(

Why?

By the way, it's May 1 you Yankee dolts! And it's spelt labour!

Labor day is when I can't wear my sandals anymore :(

Also, school starts right after, so it's literally the end of all my lazy days of summer.

You aren't supposed to wear open toed or white shoes after labor day, it's when you start wearing fall colors.

Why?

Why?
You aren't supposed to wear open toed or white shoes after labor day, it's when you start wearing fall colors.

By the way, it's May 1 you Yankee dolts! And it's spelt labour!

:p

Why?

Autumn colors come out.

By the way, it's May 1 you Yankee dolts! And it's spelt labour!

Sorry but we are not socialists and we do not celebrate may day. May day is only good for a distress call. And it is Labor in America and your spelling in the UK.

You aren't supposed to wear open toed or white shoes after labor day, it's when you start wearing fall colors.

That has yet to stop me.

Also, colour me unsurprised that Fass would correct our dialectal issues. :)

In some districts, school has already started. Sucks for them :D

yeah, one of the great things about homeschooling is I can wait to start school until September.

The school I substitute teach at started in mid-August :eek: they didn't get to start summer break until mid-June either, all those stupid days off in the school year are robbing children in my area of things like summer camp and baseball.

yeah, one of the great things about homeschooling is I can wait to start school until September.

As long as the required days are met, it does not matter when ya start. I started in early july and worked periodicly until the regular school started. It ment that my summer started sooner :D

The school I substitute teach at started in mid-August :eek: they didn't get to start summer break until mid-June either, all those stupid days off in the school year are robbing children in my area of things like summer camp and baseball.

That is very very sad :(

As long as the required days are met, it does not matter when ya start. I started in early july and worked periodicly until the regular school started. It ment that my summer started sooner :D
We only have to do 180 days and since we don't take Spring break or Fall break or Winter break, or snow days, we start late and end early......more summer for them.

That is very very sad :(
it really is.

By the way, it's May 1 you Yankee dolts! And it's spelt labour!
No, that's May Day.

And its spelled "spelled."

Autumn colors come out.



Sorry but we are not socialists and we do not celebrate may day. May day is only good for a distress call. And it is Labor in America and your spelling in the UK.

It's Fass's spelling everywhere except the US. Only the US adheres to Noah Webster's misguided orthographic reform.

In some districts, school has already started. Sucks for them

Yeah, we started on August 20 this year. Last year we started earlier than that, but we got out in May. This year school doesn't end until after the first week of June. Seniors get out a week earlier than the other students though, as we have our exams a week earlier. My graduation will be on June 6, apparently.:)

No, that's May Day.

And its spelled "spelled."
Or spelt. Again, Webster's orthographic reform at work.

"Today is my birthday."
"Today is Labor Day."
"Yeah?"
"Yeah, we celebrate yo momma!"

........

Cousin #4365687 is having her first birthday on Sunday. I shall enjoy cake.

It's Fass's spelling everywhere except the US. Only the US adheres to Noah Webster's misguided orthographic reform.

Oh how I hate Webster - totally ignoring the origins of words and creating 'new' spelling all to make a political point.

In some districts, school has already started. Sucks for them :D

Yeah but they get out earlier.Still rather stay to the end of August instead of a few extra June days. :D

Yeah but they get out earlier.Still rather stay to the end of August instead of a few extra June days. :D

Unless of course the teachers are stupid enough to strike. Then the school year gets prolonged by the number of days they strike for.

Oh how I hate Webster - totally ignoring the origins of words and creating 'new' spelling all to make a political point.
Most languages have undergone such reforms in order to keep things tidy. Really, if anyone is being irrational in this case, it is the English for clinging to archaic spellings out of stupid pride while the most of the rest of the West (US, Germany, France, etc) moves forward.

yeah, one of the great things about homeschooling is I can wait to start school until September.

The school I substitute teach at started in mid-August :eek: they didn't get to start summer break until mid-June either, all those stupid days off in the school year are robbing children in my area of things like summer camp and baseball.

What state would what? be in as that is listed as your location.

yeah, one of the great things about homeschooling is I can wait to start school until September.

The school I substitute teach at started in mid-August :eek: they didn't get to start summer break until mid-June either, all those stupid days off in the school year are robbing children in my area of things like summer camp and baseball.

But thats like 2 months!

Kids here get 5 to 6 weeks for Summer holidays.

Most languages have undergone such reforms in order to keep things tidy. Really, if anyone is being irrational in this case, it is the English for clinging to archaic spellings out of stupid pride while the most of the rest of the West (US, Germany, France, etc) moves forward.
France? The French language is regulated by the government (and has been for quite some time). As such, the language is imprecise and limiting (Italian has the same problem for the same reason).

English succeeds because it's expansive and allows tremendous levels of precision on almost any topic by virtue of having more words than any other, but the subtle differences in meanings between words are lost when Webster discards their etymology in a pointless attempt to make the language phonetic (which is never really was, so I don't know why he's trying).

What state would what? be in as that is listed as your location.

Ok

http://www.claybennett.com/images/archivetoons/labor_day_2001.jpg

Well, Labor Day is just around the corner in the US. We get to be thankful for all the workplace struggles that won us the 40 hour work week, the right to collective bargaining, decent wages and safe working conditions by generally forgetting that the struggles ever happened.

When you think about it, Labor Day is the most emasculated holiday in the entire US. We aren't taught in school what it represents, and indeed, when we do study unions in school, they are usually portrayed negatively. Everyone celebrates Labor Day, even the business owners who historically were so dead set against labor struggles. But, so few really know what it represents.That was kind of the point in not making it May 1st - so people wouldn't really know what it was.

Now it's time to fight for the 20-hour workweek! :DUnfortunately, the site isn't working right now, but I'll post this for when it does:

http://www.iww.org/projects/4-Hours

By the way, it's May 1 No, sadly, it isn't.

Ahh Labor Day, it's a good excuse to riot.

Why?

By the way, it's May 1 you Yankee dolts! And it's spelt labour!

Obviously, it's a different holiday than the one you're referring to. :p

Unless of course the teachers are stupid enough to strike. Then the school year gets prolonged by the number of days they strike for.

I don't think teachers are allowed to strike here...they did that thing where they only work for the time that they have to and don't stay later though. Not sure what it's called.

France? The French language is regulated by the government (and has been for quite some time). As such, the language is imprecise and limiting

Poppycock and bull.

I don't think teachers are allowed to strike here...they did that thing where they only work for the time that they have to and don't stay later though. Not sure what it's called.

What location is that?

Well, Labor Day is just around the corner in the US. We get to be thankful for all the workplace struggles that won us the 40 hour work week, the right to collective bargaining, decent wages and safe working conditions by generally forgetting that the struggles ever happened.

When you think about it, Labor Day is the most emasculated holiday in the entire US. We aren't taught in school what it represents, and indeed, when we do study unions in school, they are usually portrayed negatively. Everyone celebrates Labor Day, even the business owners who historically were so dead set against labor struggles. But, so few really know what it represents.

As a labor activist, I know...

By the way, it's May 1 you Yankee dolts! And it's spelt labour!

Funnily enough, no. US labor day predates May 1 as a Labor Day. See the info dump below.

Obviously, it's a different holiday than the one you're referring to. :p

Nope. Same basic holiday, but different dates for historical reasons.

That was kind of the point in not making it May 1st - so people wouldn't really know what it was.

Not quite so. The first Monday is September already had a history in the US. And Cleavland wanted to distance it from the socialists.


Here's the info dump on how the first Monday in September became US Labor Day and May Day became International Labor Day.


In 1882, the Knights of Labor held a labor parade on Sept. 5 in New York. They marched to protest the 12 hour working day. The parade was repeated the next year, and in 1885 it became the 1st Monday in September. This was picked up by other union and labor activists including the Federation of Organized Trades and Labor Unions (later changed to the AFL).

At the same time, the International Workingmen's Asociation and several of their affiliates favored May 1, a date which the labor movement had used as a traditional strike day for many years.

International Labor/Worker's Day is a commemorartion of the Haymarket Martyrs. The whole Haymarket affair began as a general strike in suport of a FOTLU resolution from 1884 for an 8 hour working day. The general strike kicked off on May 1, 1886 (May 1, as noted above, being a traditional strke day). The largest gathering was in Chicago. On May 3rd, several unionist were killed by police. On May 4th, a large number of people gathered at the Haymarket in a poorly organised but peaceful protest of the police actions. A group of about 200 police officers showed up and ordered the protesters to disperse.

What happened next is unclear to this day. An unknown person (either an anarchist or a Pinkerton agent are the usual suspects) threw a bomb at the police. 1 Officer was killed. The police opened fire, killing several protesters. Several police officers were also killed (most likely by their own "freindly fire").

The result was a rigged show trial (the jury included a relative of one of the officers killed!) for 8 labor leaders, none known to be associated with the still unknown bomber, and only one of whom was present at the protest. Seven were sentenced to death and four were executed (one commited suicide the night before his execution and two were commuted to life). The case became an international scandal and is considered to be one of the greatest miscarrages of justice in US history. Seven years later, governor John Peter Altgeld pardoned all eight, and released the three who were still alive, because they were the victims of "hysteria, packed juries and a biased judge".

At an international labor conference in Paris in 1889, a representative of the AFL suggested May 1 as a day to commemorate the martyrs and to celebrate international labor solidarity.

In 1887 Oregon created a state Labor Day on the first Monday in September. Several states followed. In 1894 Grover Cleavland introduced the national holiday.

In 1947, at the start of the Cold War, May 1st was made "Loyalty Day". Loyalty Day, which remained largely a forgotten relic for most of my life (more of which was spent in the Cold War era than after) until GWBush started pumping it again.

Notes/References:
http://www.lucyparsonsproject.org/haymarke..._haymarket.html (http://www.lucyparsonsproject.org/haymarket/roediger_haymarket.html)
http://www.kentlaw.edu/ilhs/haymkmon.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A627662
http://libcom.org/history/articles/mayday-haymarket-martyrs/
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/26/017.html
http://www.14850.com/14850/9505/history.html
http://www.dol.gov/opa/aboutdol/laborday.htm (Note how the lovely US Department of Labor entierly ignores the Haymarket connection. There's more than one reason i favor abolishing the DOL... :mad:)

When you think about it, Labor Day is the most emasculated holiday in the entire US. We aren't taught in school what it represents, and indeed, when we do study unions in school, they are usually portrayed negatively. Everyone celebrates Labor Day, even the business owners who historically were so dead set against labor struggles. But, so few really know what it represents.

Yeah right, I can positively confirm that unions were not so much as once portrayed negatively in my entire primary and secondary education. Once I was even told to ask my parents if they're in a union, and if they aren't why won't they join one.

And if you look at the long list of US holidays, many are more devoid of their original meaning than Labor Day, as at least we get the day off of work for labor day.

Yeah right, I can positively confirm that unions were not so much as once portrayed negatively in my entire primary and secondary education. Once I was even told to ask my parents if they're in a union, and if they aren't why won't they join one.

And if you look at the long list of US holidays, many are more devoid of their original meaning than Labor Day, as at least we get the day off of work for labor day.

Funny...I am going to the mall today. I know that is opened. :D

Yeah right, I can positively confirm that unions were not so much as once portrayed negatively in my entire primary and secondary education.

But they stopped existing somewhere around 1960.

Edit: And "positive" or not, "emasculated" is an excellent description of the depictions.

Funny...I am going to the mall today. I know that is opened. :D

Well, it's not like the world stops just because someone wants to jump up and down and shout about how wonderful they and their compatriots are, and how we all owe them our gratitude and all of that ;)

Well, it's not like the world stops just because someone wants to jump up and down and shout about how wonderful they and their compatriots are, and how we all owe them our gratitude and all of that ;)

Frankly...I recognize it as an observance and not as a national holiday. Its just one more day off from school (which does not concern me right now as I am out of school) that we should not have off.

What location is that?

I'm in Florida.

I'm in Florida.

Damn. I wish PA had that law. I wish our teachers could not strike. As it is, they can strike for up to 30 days and then have to return to work with or without a bargin.

Mummers and coal mines and candy, oh my!

Labor Day Weekend means that they're taking the bridge that connects me to the rest of civilisation down...good thing I stocked up on food...


(actually they only took down half of it, the eastern span, but we still can't use it without a special pass that I didn't get...)

Damn. I wish PA had that law. I wish our teachers could not strike. As it is, they can strike for up to 30 days and then have to return to work with or without a bargin.

They still have a union or something like it, just they can't strike.

I remembered that because last year the schools were violating their contracts or something, because they were only supposed to teach up to five classes a day but the way our schedule was they had to teach six classes with one planning period on Mondays. I think there were some other problems too. We had alternating block schedules on the days other than Mondays.

Now we have a weird schedule where we have alternating block days with first period every day except Wednesdays, and we get out at 12:30 on Wednesdays compared to 2:20 on the other days.

http://www.claybennett.com/images/archivetoons/labor_day_2001.jpg

Well, Labor Day is just around the corner in the US. We get to be thankful for all the workplace struggles that won us the 40 hour work week, the right to collective bargaining, decent wages and safe working conditions by generally forgetting that the struggles ever happened.

When you think about it, Labor Day is the most emasculated holiday in the entire US. We aren't taught in school what it represents, and indeed, when we do study unions in school, they are usually portrayed negatively. Everyone celebrates Labor Day, even the business owners who historically were so dead set against labor struggles. But, so few really know what it represents.

True.

True.

Crap, there's a real discussion going on. That's what I get for not reading...

Crap, there's a real discussion going on. That's what I get for not reading...

Wait, where?!

Also, so you're trapped? At least you can steal a boat and get on over there?

Unless of course the teachers are stupid enough to strike. Then the school year gets prolonged by the number of days they strike for.

Yeah. Stupid teachers and their Cost of Living increase. If they wanted to have lives, why the fuck did they become teachers?

Yeah. Stupid teachers and their Cost of Living increase. If they wanted to have lives, why the fuck did they become teachers?

Cost of living increase is one thing. Striking for not getting their way is a totally different story. Not only do strikes prolong the school year but it hurts the families along with the teachers. Teachers do not get paid and parents lose money because they have to make sure that their children are taken care of while they are at work or they lose money because they cannot work because of the strike. On top of that, what makes them think that the school district can actually afford to give them what they want? Sometimes it is not even possible for them to get all that the teachers want. Negotiations goes both ways. To many times I see local unions strike because their demands are not being met without any effort to negotiate on the teachers part. Hell, parents are starting to fight back against the Unions because of their frequent strikes and good for the parents to do so.

On another note, my fiance is studying to be an elementary education teacher and I take education very very seriously.

Wait, where?!

Also, so you're trapped? At least you can steal a boat and get on over there?
Above, where Corny thinks that teachers should take it on the chin for some reason.

And I was being a little dramatic, the buses still run and I rarely drive into the city anyway and I hardly ever drive into Oakland.

Above, where Corny thinks that teachers should take it on the chin for some reason.

I said they should not be allowed to strike. I said nothing about taking it on the chin.

I said they should not be allowed to strike. I said nothing about taking it on the chin.

Remove their ability to bargain=take it on the chin.

Remove their ability to bargain=take it on the chin.

No one is removing their ability to bargain CTOAN. Are you telling me that people cannot bargain except during a strike?

No one is removing their ability to bargain CTOAN. Are you telling me that people cannot bargain except during a strike?

No one can bargain without power or leverage. Without it your bargaining position is meaningless.

The only leverage they have is their labor and the ability to withhold it.

How much bargaining power do you think the guy at the business end of the gun has?

No one can bargain without power or leverage. Without it your bargaining position is meaningless.

In the state of PA, the school districts do not actually have to negotiate if the teacher's strike. State law dictates that the teachers can strike for 30 days. At the end of those thirty days, the teachers are forced, by law, back into the classrooms.

No one is taking away anyone's power to bargin and negotiate. People bargin all the time. Hell, the College Professor's Union nearly had a strike and I heard what they said. Being in the Student Senate, the reps for the teachers talked to us. They gave us the Union Party line. What pissed me off more was that there was no rep from the State there to give us their side of the story. Did the College Union have grounds for strike? no they did not. Not in the least. I even told them what would happen if they struck and the head dude agreed with me on that. He never did answer my questions.

Of course, I had a bigger stake in it because my fiance was taken a summer class that was required for her education degree. If the teachers had gone out on strike, she would have suffered and I was not going to tolerate that.

The only leverage they have is their labor and the ability to withhold it.

And thus suffer along side those who they are hurting by striking. How much money do people lose when they go out on strike?

How much bargaining power do you think the guy at the business end of the gun has?

More than they realize. If they do not like something, there is the courts. They can sue if they feel that the other side is not negotiating in good faith.

Crap, there's a real discussion going on. That's what I get for not reading...

Eh, I always read the OP unless it's really, really, long.

In the state of PA, the school districts do not actually have to negotiate if the teacher's strike. State law dictates that the teachers can strike for 30 days. At the end of those thirty days, the teachers are forced, by law, back into the classrooms.

No one is taking away anyone's power to bargin and negotiate. People bargin all the time. Hell, the College Professor's Union nearly had a strike and I heard what they said. Being in the Student Senate, the reps for the teachers talked to us. They gave us the Union Party line. What pissed me off more was that there was no rep from the State there to give us their side of the story. Did the College Union have grounds for strike? no they did not. Not in the least. I even told them what would happen if they struck and the head dude agreed with me on that. He never did answer my questions.

Of course, I had a bigger stake in it because my fiance was taken a summer class that was required for her education degree. If the teachers had gone out on strike, she would have suffered and I was not going to tolerate that.
You 'not tolerating that' can go both ways. There are those that support the strike that hold the administration responsible for forcing the strike.



And thus suffer along side those who they are hurting by striking. How much money do people lose when they go out on strike?
Less than they will if they accept a wage that increasingly diminishes against cost of living. Not to mention the loss to the students as teaching becomes a less and less attractive prospect as it becomes less and less likely to be able to earn a living doing so.

And again, the responsibility for a strike goes both ways, not just one.



More than they realize.
Only if that person also has a gun...

If they do not like something, there is the courts. They can sue if they feel that the other side is not negotiating in good faith.
Are you suggesting that wages and contracts be determined by courts? Aren't you one of the people who rallies against 'frivolous lawsuits'? (honest question, even if I worded it loaded)

You 'not tolerating that' can go both ways. There are those that support the strike that hold the administration responsible for forcing the strike.

Yes but the parents here are fed up with the Unions constently striking. A couple of school districts that had a strike had to face parents on the other side hopping mad at them and picketing the teachers for striking. Most people do not like teacher strikes for the reasons I stated before.

Less than they will if they accept a wage that increasingly diminishes against cost of living. Not to mention the loss to the students as teaching becomes a less and less attractive prospect as it becomes less and less likely to be able to earn a living doing so.

Or having unions stifle very creative teachers by having regulation on regulation on a teacher. The NEA and the Dept. of Education (Federal) have really restricted teachers to no end. I have seen it.

And again, the responsibility for a strike goes both ways, not just one.

I agree.

Only if that person also has a gun...

Are you suggesting that wages and contracts be determined by courts? Aren't you one of the people who rallies against 'frivolous lawsuits'? (honest question, even if I worded it loaded)

If one side is not negotiating in good faith, it is up to those who are negotiating with them to do something to get them to negotiating in good faith. Striking is hardly an answer for that for by striking, you forfeit everything you are working for in this day and age.

Yes but the parents here are fed up with the Unions constently striking. A couple of school districts that had a strike had to face parents on the other side hopping mad at them and picketing the teachers for striking. Most people do not like teacher strikes for the reasons I stated before.

No one likes strikes, so I fail to see the point. It's not like strikes are carnivals.


Or having unions stifle very creative teachers by having regulation on regulation on a teacher. The NEA and the Dept. of Education (Federal) have really restricted teachers to no end. I have seen it.
Those are not unions.



I agree.
I do not see that in application.



If one side is not negotiating in good faith, it is up to those who are negotiating with them to do something to get them to negotiating in good faith. Striking is hardly an answer for that for by striking, you forfeit everything you are working for in this day and age.
Striking is the only answer that they have. Your alternative is for the state to enforce negotiations and in essence set wages. That doesn't seem to fit that 'small government' rhetoric of the conservative that we've come to know you as.

You write as if no strike has ever been successful for those striking.

No one likes strikes, so I fail to see the point. It's not like strikes are carnivals.

Exactly.

Those are not unions.

The NEA is the National Educators Association. They are indeed a Union.

I do not see that in application.

I take alook at circumstances of teachers striking. Most of the time, they strike because the Administration turns down their demands and offers a counter and the Union fails to counter the counter. Most of the time they demand its their way or the highway. Notice I said most of the time. It is nearly how APSCUF (the state higher education union) nearly went on strike July 1. However, they agreed to the deal that the state offered them. At least they were honest in negotiating back and forth and not striking. The repercussions would have been disasterous for the union and for higher education as a whole.

Striking is the only answer that they have. Your alternative is for the state to enforce negotiations and in essence set wages.

That was how the last threatened strike in PA's State University System was avoided.

That doesn't seem to fit that 'small government' rhetoric of the conservative that we've come to know you as.

Goes to show there is more to me than meets the eye.

You write as if no strike has ever been successful for those striking.

I never saaid that. I said in today's day and age. back in the past, there were legitament reasons for striking. Today, the work environment is much safer than it used to be. Striking should only occur if lives are in danger.

Goes to show there is more to me than meets the eye.True that. You have a whole Allegheny County inside you.



I never saaid that. I said in today's day and age. back in the past, there were legitament reasons for striking. Today, the work environment is much safer than it used to be. Striking should only occur if lives are in danger.
Oh brother!

Damn. I wish PA had that law. I wish our teachers could not strike. As it is, they can strike for up to 30 days and then have to return to work with or without a bargin.

PA, huh? You wouldn't happen to be from Lancaster County, huh? Anywhere near Allegheny? :D

PA, huh? You wouldn't happen to be from Lancaster County, huh? Anywhere near Allegheny? :D

I do not know who Lancaster is but Allegheny County is mine.

That doesn't seem to fit that 'small government' rhetoric of the conservative that we've come to know you as.

But, then, the "small government" rhetoric has never fit what right-wingers have advocated.

They are perfectly willing to support state intervention in the economy when it serves their "pro-business" (Taft-Hartley, right-to-work laws) or xenophobic (immigration restriction) ends.

But, then, the "small government" rhetoric has never fit what right-wingers have advocated.

They are perfectly willing to support state intervention in the economy when it serves their "pro-business" (Taft-Hartley, right-to-work laws) or xenophobic (immigration restriction) ends.

I do not support immigration restrictions. I support making it easier to immigrate. I oppose illegal immigration and that needs to be cracked down on.

I do not know who Lancaster is but Allegheny County is mine.

Fair enough.

I do not know who Lancaster is but Allegheny County is mine.

Then kudos to whomever played Lancaster County. Had you to a T.

Exactly.
Exactly what?



The NEA is the National Educators Association. They are indeed a Union.[/url]
I was thinking more along the terms of the AFT (http://www.aft.org/about/index.htm)


[QUOTE=Corneliu;13017100]

I take alook at circumstances of teachers striking. Most of the time, they strike because the Administration turns down their demands and offers a counter and the Union fails to counter the counter. Most of the time they demand its their way or the highway. Notice I said most of the time. It is nearly how APSCUF (the state higher education union) nearly went on strike July 1. However, they agreed to the deal that the state offered them. At least they were honest in negotiating back and forth and not striking. The repercussions would have been disasterous for the union and for higher education as a whole.
This is a ridiculously simplified notion of what happens, not to mention uselessly generalized.

Ultimately it says they should just take what the state offers. If the union has no recourse, there is no reason for the administration to give more than a token.




That was how the last threatened strike in PA's State University System was avoided.



Goes to show there is more to me than meets the eye.



I never saaid that. I said in today's day and age. back in the past, there were legitament reasons for striking. Today, the work environment is much safer than it used to be. Striking should only occur if lives are in danger.
If teachers cannot meet the cost of living, their lives are in danger.

But, then, the "small government" rhetoric has never fit what right-wingers have advocated.

They are perfectly willing to support state intervention in the economy when it serves their "pro-business" (Taft-Hartley, right-to-work laws) or xenophobic (immigration restriction) ends.

Yeah, I know. I was just kicking ant hills...

Not quite so. The first Monday is September already had a history in the US. And Cleavland wanted to distance it from the socialists.


Here's the info dump on how the first Monday in September became US Labor Day and May Day became International Labor Day. That explains why U.S. Labor Day is more concentrated on prardes than on protests. Hence, the OP's depiction of it as "emasculated".

Damn. I wish PA had that law. I wish our teachers could not strike. As it is, they can strike for up to 30 days and then have to return to work with or without a bargin.The latter part is what should be removed, not the former part.

They still have a union or something like it, just they can't strike.Do they ever engage in other activities, such as on-the-job sabotage?

Yes but the parents here are fed up with the Unions constently striking. A couple of school districts that had a strike had to face parents on the other side hopping mad at them and picketing the teachers for striking. Most people do not like teacher strikes for the reasons I stated before.Then the parents can picket with the teachers to help end the strike sooner.

I know what it means and it should not be a federal holiday. A day of recognition yes but a holiday? no.
Goddamn you suck, everyone should be arguing for more holidays, not fewer.

Goddamn you suck, everyone should be arguing for more holidays, not fewer.

Holidays are fine unless they take away from education.

Holidays are fine unless they take away from education.
How does Labour day take away from education? School doesn't even start until after Labour day and it's only one day, which hardly detracts from anyone's education.

How does Labour day take away from education? School doesn't even start until after Labour day and it's only one day, which hardly detracts from anyone's education.

Alot of schools has already started educating young minds.

Alot of schools has already started educating young minds.
None in Canada have. :p We get later summers.

At any rate, taking one day off in September doesn't hurt one's education. Hell, when I was in public and secondary school we had random "professional development days" off. It was usually one each month. The teachers would go to seminars to learn how to improve their teaching skills (or go out drinking, whichever) and we would get a three day weekend.

France? The French language is regulated by the government (and has been for quite some time). As such, the language is imprecise and limiting (Italian has the same problem for the same reason).

English succeeds because it's expansive and allows tremendous levels of precision on almost any topic by virtue of having more words than any other, but the subtle differences in meanings between words are lost when Webster discards their etymology in a pointless attempt to make the language phonetic (which is never really was, so I don't know why he's trying).

Er... no.

English is shit in that regard. We often times don't have words to describe a certain situation, requiring a long, drawn-out explanation of an event. Compare that to, say, German, which has more or less a built in structure for creating new words, and English is damn near incapable of doing such. The problem with English is that it is very difficult to create new words for certain situations, that are at the very least easily understood by the general populace. Other languages, not so much. That is not to say that certain words, or phrases, cannot be coined, but often times these are not readily defined by the general populace.

Alot of schools has already started educating young minds.

Holidays have actually proven to be important to break things up and give the occasional rest, even if just to do something else. It's one of the reasons Christmas is what it is, before it was promoted into the holiday it is now it was really just adults drinking and had fuck all to do with kids. Without holidays you start trying to fill a glass that's already full-like pouring your soda too fast.

Holidays have actually proven to be important to break things up and give the occasional rest, even if just to do something else. It's one of the reasons Christmas is what it is, before it was promoted into the holiday it is now it was really just adults drinking and had fuck all to do with kids. Without holidays you start trying to fill a glass that's already full-like pouring your soda too fast.

Some yes but not all of them.

None in Canada have. :p We get later summers.

At any rate, taking one day off in September doesn't hurt one's education. Hell, when I was in public and secondary school we had random "professional development days" off. It was usually one each month. The teachers would go to seminars to learn how to improve their teaching skills (or go out drinking, whichever) and we would get a three day weekend.

We totally had those, too. The ruled even more once I was able to drive...

Some yes but not all of them.

You'd be hard pressed to say we have too many holidays.

Some yes but not all of them.
Psh, if anything, we need more.

I propose a holiday on November 18 so I never have to work or go to school on my birthday. It can create a long weekend if it falls on a Saturday or Sunday too so everyone can be happy. :)

See, I am having a problem with Labour day. They say you shouldn't wear white on labour day. The root of this is because it signifies the end of summer and summer fashion- and that one should instead start wearing autumn/winter colours. However, in Australia it signifies the end of winter and the start of spring/summer. Yet it is still considered a faux pas to wear white on labour day. I say Australians should wear white on labour day, if any day at all, simply to correct this misapplied seepage of US culture.

See, I am having a problem with Labour day. They say you shouldn't wear white on labour day. The root of this is because it signifies the end of summer and summer fashion- and that one should instead start wearing autumn/winter colours. However, in Australia it signifies the end of winter and the start of spring/summer. Yet it is still considered a faux pas to wear white on labour day. I say Australians should wear white on labour day, if any day at all, simply to correct this misapplied seepage of US culture.

Or...signify the change of seasons in the Southern Hemisphere :D

In a truly democratic workplace strikes would never be necessary as people could democratically decide with each other, this which would include voting systems, debates, democratic structuring, due process, adversarial process, systems of appeal, and so on. While I recognize that trade unions in the last century have made great achievements as to worker rights and entitlements, I think we need to look beyond the traditional trade union model of democratic organization of the workplace. Although many unions have excellent standards of democratic organizing in their structure, many these days have become corrupt and apathetic, 'union bosses' have become the new 'workplace boss'. Instead we should be looking towards greater workplace autonomy and communalisation, and genuine self-management, rather than the Master (union boss, boss) Servant relationship.

In a truly democratic workplace strikes would never be necessary as people could democratically decide with each other, this which would include voting systems, debates, democratic structuring, due process, adversarial process, systems of appeal, and so on. While I recognize that trade unions in the last century have made great achievements as to worker rights and entitlements, I think we need to look beyond the traditional trade union model of democratic organization of the workplace. Although many unions have excellent standards of democratic organizing in their structure, many these days have become corrupt and apathetic, 'union bosses' have become the new 'workplace boss'. Instead we should be looking towards greater workplace autonomy and communalisation, and genuine self-management, rather than the Master (union boss, boss) Servant relationship.

Except for the 49% who get fucked over by the majority. *shrug*

In a truly democratic workplace strikes would never be necessary as people could democratically decide with each other, this which would include voting systems, debates, democratic structuring, due process, adversarial process, systems of appeal, and so on. While I recognize that trade unions in the last century have made great achievements as to worker rights and entitlements, I think we need to look beyond the traditional trade union model of democratic organization of the workplace. Although many unions have excellent standards of democratic organizing in their structure, many these days have become corrupt and apathetic, 'union bosses' have become the new 'workplace boss'. Instead we should be looking towards greater workplace autonomy and communalisation, and genuine self-management, rather than the Master (union boss, boss) Servant relationship.

Yes but democracy is for noobs, as capitalist organisations have shown in competition. Who wants to own a democratic business?

Except for the 49% who get fucked over by the majority. *shrug*
Better than the 99% getting screwed by the 1% employer class.

Yes but democracy is for noobs, as capitalist organisations have shown in competition. Who wants to own a democratic business?
Actually you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the working people, these days their is no such thing as an 'unskilled' worker, everyone knows what they must to do their job, so they are skilled in their own way. In this way they are also competent to have a share in their workplace accordingly to my aforementioned democratic principles. You'll surprisingly find that if you give people a say in their work and how things are run, productivity and efficiency will increase, rather than becoming apathetic through being dictated to by an undercutting boss. Both trade unions and boss have become separated from those they represent, the only true answer to this is self-management.

Better than the 99% getting screwed by the 1% employer class.

The 99% being sole trader businesses who sell labour and skills, and the 1% being other businesses who consume said labour traders' services?

Better than the 99% getting screwed by the 1% employer class.

Despite the fact that small businesses are growing.

Actually you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the working people, these days their is no such thing as an 'unskilled' worker, everyone knows what they must to do their job, so they are skilled in their own way. In this way they are also competent to have a share in their workplace accordingly to my aforementioned democratic principles. You'll surprisingly find that if you give people a say in their work and how things are run, productivity and efficiency will increase, rather than becoming apathetic through being dictated to by an undercutting boss. Both trade unions and boss have become separated from those they represent, the only true answer to this is self-management.
Regardless how wonderful employees are, democracy is just a horribly innefficent and irrational way to run an organisation. Try it, and you'll see.

Regardless how wonderful employees are, democracy is just a horribly innefficent and irrational way to run an organisation. Try it, and you'll see.
You know, you can properly reply to my posts rather than your meaningless one-liners.

You know, you can properly reply to my posts rather than your meaningless one-liners.
It was a long chain of unsupported assertations, that don't even rationally check out, let alone practically. We live in a capitalism, Andy, that means that if running your business as a democracy really was better for productivity and efficiency, all businesses would have long ago made this conversion to get the edge on their competitors. Unfortunately, what democracy does is force companies to make popular, unsound decisions, and bog it down with the bureaucracy that comes with democratic rule.

It was a long chain of unsupported assertations, that don't even rationally check out, let alone practically. We live in a capitalism, Andy, that means that if running your business as a democracy really was better for productivity and efficiency, all businesses would have long ago made this conversion to get the edge on their competitors. Unfortunately, what democracy does is force companies to make popular, unsound decisions, and bog it down with the bureaucracy that comes with democratic rule.

No, the reason business don't use workplace democracy is a mixture of misconception, general distrust, and in some cases deliberate attempts to not have a system in which profits could be more fairly distributed on democratic principles, as opposed to massive centralization of wealth within the employer class.

Yes but democracy is for noobs, as capitalist organisations have shown in competition. Who wants to own a democratic business?

Lots of people, apparently (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cooperatives) I will testify that the list for the United States includes many large and well known brand names that compete just fine against others.

Another good example is that of W. L. Gore & Associates, makers of Gore-Tex fabric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gore-tex). The founder's "flat lattice" company organization is one where there is no predefined hierarchy, job titles, or bosses. (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/bestcompanies/snapshots/1542.html) Leadership is designed to emerge when the group decides to follow those who demonstrate their skill and ability to take the role. (http://www.gore.com/en_xx/aboutus/culture/index.html) As a result, the company is not only highly successful, but is also regularly listed as one of the best to work for in both the United States (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/bestcompanies/snapshots/1542.html) and the United (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/specials/best_100_2006/article734009.ece) Kingdom (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/career_and_jobs/best_100_companies/article1473519.ece). As noted at those last two links, the founder simply believed that if you take care of the workers first, the rest will follow. Including a profitable enterprise.

This idea that the democratic or worker controlled enterprise lacks innovation or is necessarily inefficient or unsuccessful, so popular among business school graduates and the statist left alike, is simply bunk.

No, the reason business don't use workplace democracy is a mixture of misconception, general distrust, and in some cases deliberate attempts to not have a system in which profits could be more fairly distributed on democratic principles, as opposed to massive centralization of wealth within the employer class.
So do it, then. Prove everyone wrong, start a democratic company, and change the world with your unprecedented success.

Also note that the wealth in a capitalist economy is actually decentralised amongst the middle and lower classes.

So do it, then. Prove everyone wrong, start a democratic company, and change the world with your unprecedented success.

It's been done. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13018470&postcount=99)

So do it, then. Prove everyone wrong, start a democratic company, and change the world with your unprecedented success.

Well I myself don't really need to prove it, as the above post by LO states, it has already been proven to work.

Lots of people, apparently (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cooperatives) I will testify that the list for the United States includes many large and well known brand names that compete just fine against others.

Another good example is that of W. L. Gore & Associates, makers of Gore-Tex fabric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gore-tex). The founder's "flat lattice" company organization is one where there is no predefined hierarchy, job titles, or bosses. (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/bestcompanies/snapshots/1542.html) Leadership is designed to emerge when the group decides to follow those who demonstrate their skill and ability to take the role. (http://www.gore.com/en_xx/aboutus/culture/index.html) As a result, the company is not only highly successful, but is also regularly listed as one of the best to work for in both the United States (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/bestcompanies/snapshots/1542.html) and the United (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/specials/best_100_2006/article734009.ece) Kingdom (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/career_and_jobs/best_100_companies/article1473519.ece). As noted at those last two links, the founder simply believed that if you take care of the workers first, the rest will follow. Including a profitable enterprise.

This idea that the democratic or worker controlled enterprise lacks innovation or is necessarily inefficient or unsuccessful, so popular among business school graduates and the statist left alike, is simply bunk. Great, so the seamstresses in the textile sweatshops, weaving up the GoreTex have equal and fair representation, I assume? Oh, I'm sorry, did you just mean certain workers? Like the ones in the big office on the 22nd floor?

The inescapable fact of democracy is that it directs an organisation to what is 'popular', not what is 'prudent'. If these occasionally coincide with each other, do not laud it as a success of democracy. Certainly, democratic work structures (with limitations) can work in a variety of small organisations; particulalry those comprised only of qualified or highly skilled technicians or designers. Yet this is simply not the case for the vast majority of businesses. When you own a textile factory, and the workers get to decide your production quotas and working standards, you get left behind (while the other guy picks up the excess contracts at the expense of better airconditioning and slower working pace for his factory workers).

It's been done. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13018470&postcount=99)
And the world watches as Goretex changes the face of world business models, as their democratic arrangement carves them an untouchable place on top of the world market.

Sorry, Gore-Tex's success was based on an ingeniously designed fabric which has now been superceeded.

Well I myself don't really need to prove it, as the above post by LO states, it has already been proven to work.

We don't need to prove whether it works or not. We know democracy works. What we need to prove is that it is competitively superior in economic efficieny to other more rational approaches.

Great, so the seamstresses in the textile sweatshops, weaving up the GoreTex have equal and fair representation, I assume? Oh, I'm sorry, did you just mean certain workers? Like the ones in the big office on the 22nd floor?


Do you have any evidence of any such abuses on the part of W. L. Gore & Associates? If you do, present it.

At any rate, workers' self-management and other democratic organization has been employed by the very disadvantaged you cite as a means of fighting exploitation and abuse. The movement is especially strong in Argentina, where the collusion of foreign investors and the state served to destroy the economy and cause massive unemployment. In fact, it was seamstresses who led the way in occupying their abandoned textile facility (left behind when the foreign investors got out of dodge with whatever money was left) and putting it back to work. Workers in other industries followed their lead and were so successful that they attracted the attention of the foreign investors who wanted "their" factories back now that the factories were economically viable again, thanks to the self-organized workers. Read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogestion#South_America

The above Wikipedia article contains many external links to the websites of cooperative and workers' self-management organizations, both in text and in the "external links" section.

I also recommend the film "The Take," (http://www.thetake.org/) a documentary which follows closely the efforts of the workers of a particular Argentinian factory.


The inescapable fact of democracy is that it directs an organisation to what is 'popular', not what is 'prudent'.


The examples I've provided suggest otherwise. W. L. Gore & Associates even involves its workers in determining wage levels. And yet the company remains highly profitable.


Yet this is simply not the case for the vast majority of businesses. When you own a textile factory, and the workers get to decide your production quotas and working standards, you get left behind


What you're missing is that in the democratically operated workplace, the "workers" ARE the "you." You're trying to cram the worker managed enterprise back into the Employer-Employee framework. But the worker is the employer. How are they going to leave themselves behind?

And the world watches as Goretex changes the face of world business models, as their democratic arrangement carves them an untouchable place on top of the world market.


I don't intend to argue that democratic arrangements will guarantee a dominant position in any given market (such an argument is unrealistic and overly optimistic for probably any model, which is of course why the opponents of workers' self-management try to pretend otherwise...). I do argue that democratic arrangements can compete successfully against other business models.

Also, W. L. Gore & Associates is involved in many more markets, industries (http://www.gore.com/en_xx/industries/index.html), and technologies (http://www.gore.com/en_xx/technology/index.html) than just textiles.

The NEA is the . They are indeed a Union.

It's the National Education Association. ;)

I never saaid that. I said in today's day and age. back in the past, there were legitament reasons for striking. Today, the work environment is much safer than it used to be. Striking should only occur if lives are in danger.

Absolutely not.
1) There are still industries in the US that are unsafe.
2) There are other legitimate reasons fro striking. (The most common reason for striking my union has is illegal labor practices.)

That explains why U.S. Labor Day is more concentrated on prardes than on protests. Hence, the OP's depiction of it as "emasculated".

I didn't mean to imply it wasn't (and I don't think I did). That was just the historical background on why there is a difference. :)

See, I am having a problem with Labour day. They say you shouldn't wear white on labour day. The root of this is because it signifies the end of summer and summer fashion- and that one should instead start wearing autumn/winter colours. However, in Australia it signifies the end of winter and the start of spring/summer. Yet it is still considered a faux pas to wear white on labour day. I say Australians should wear white on labour day, if any day at all, simply to correct this misapplied seepage of US culture.

With Labor Day being on differing days in Aus, wouldn't that be really mixed up?

http://www.claybennett.com/images/archivetoons/labor_day_2001.jpg

Well, Labor Day is just around the corner in the US. We get to be thankful for all the workplace struggles that won us the 40 hour work week, the right to collective bargaining, decent wages and safe working conditions by generally forgetting that the struggles ever happened.

When you think about it, Labor Day is the most emasculated holiday in the entire US. We aren't taught in school what it represents, and indeed, when we do study unions in school, they are usually portrayed negatively. Everyone celebrates Labor Day, even the business owners who historically were so dead set against labor struggles. But, so few really know what it represents.

Labour day means shit to me. I still have to work that day.

We don't need to prove whether it works or not. We know democracy works. What we need to prove is that it is competitively superior in economic efficieny to other more rational approaches.

Maybe it's just me, but if it comes down to that undemocratic workplaces are more efficient than democratic ones (which you still have no proven in the least despite being pwned by LO) I would take altruism over utility any day, I would rather be that less well off rather than have no democratic right in where I work (which is where we spend the majority of our lives).

Er... no.

English is shit in that regard. We often times don't have words to describe a certain situation, requiring a long, drawn-out explanation of an event. Compare that to, say, German, which has more or less a built in structure for creating new words, and English is damn near incapable of doing such. The problem with English is that it is very difficult to create new words for certain situations, that are at the very least easily understood by the general populace. Other languages, not so much. That is not to say that certain words, or phrases, cannot be coined, but often times these are not readily defined by the general populace.Like "schadenfreude"? :p

Like "schadenfreude"? :p

Or Weltanshaung (sp?) Doesn't it just roll off your tongue? :p

Or Weltanshaung (sp?) Doesn't it just roll off your tongue? :p

Weltanschauung. Yeah, German does have it better for new words. And they get to use 'fahrt' a lot. :p

It's the National Education Association. ;)

It is still a Union :D

Absolutely not.
1) There are still industries in the US that are unsafe.

I did not say that there was. All I said was that the working environment is safer than it was.

2) There are other legitimate reasons fro striking. (The most common reason for striking my union has is illegal labor practices.)

Then one must prove that illegal labor practices is occuring before striking.

...when we do study unions in school, they are usually portrayed negatively.

We were taught to practically worship unions in school.

Labour day means shit to me. I still have to work that day.

No, not really. Even disregarding that 300 million native speakers spell it "labor", which is subsantially more than the number of native speakers who spell it with a 'U', in this instance we are dealing with a proper noun, thus it will always and irrevocably be Labor Day.

in this instance we are dealing with a proper noun, thus it will always and irrevocably be Labor Day.

Indeed--like the Australian Labor Party.