NationStates Jolt Archive

I was just thinking, reading Aristotle, who I feel maybe the most ingenious philosophers, who died 2k years ago, how it seems we are incredibly poor in knowledge these days. Sure we can go to uni and do politics and philosophy, but the utility of such knowledge seems rare. Instead we see politics placate the apathetic with silly superficial notions, we don't see complex philosophical political debates in politics, instead we see mudslinging and nonsensical displays. Who here thinks we need a rejuvenation of politics? a grassroots democratic, mass organization way to intelligently debating issues in substance rather than sound byte?

Anyways, maybe in another life I was a rich male Athenian citizen.

I was just thinking, reading Aristotle, who I feel maybe the most ingenious philosophers, who died 2k years ago, how it seems we are incredibly poor in knowledge these days. Sure we can go to uni and do politics and philosophy, but the utility of such knowledge seems rare. Instead we see politics placate the apathetic with silly superficial notions, we don't see complex philosophical political debates in politics, instead we see mudslinging and nonsensical displays. Who here thinks we need a rejuvenation of politics? a grassroots democratic, mass organization way to intelligently debating issues in substance rather than sound byte?

Anyways, maybe in another life I was a rich male Athenian citizen.

Not everybody has the whim or will to philosphise. The inteligansia will always be in the minority, so it has always been so it will always be.

The problem with that sort of democracy is, it only works in comparatively small communities (small countries, cities, that kind of level).
Our current society is not laid out to function in small communities, as they cannot guarantee enough resources, manpower, etc. to maintain our current form of civilisation.

Philosophy is a fun pastime - and unlike you seem to perceive, many 'everyday issues' contain a lot of philosophy. It's not only the great thinkers that question everything. Childern are capable of it too. ;)

Philosophy is a fun pastime - and unlike you seem to perceive, many 'everyday issues' contain a lot of philosophy. It's not only the great thinkers that question everything. Childern are capable of it too. ;)

Sorry was that directed at me?

Are you under the illusion that most Greeks gave a shit about what Aristotle and the like said?

I was just thinking, reading Aristotle, who I feel maybe the most ingenious philosophers, who died 2k years ago, how it seems we are incredibly poor in knowledge these days. Sure we can go to uni and do politics and philosophy, but the utility of such knowledge seems rare. Instead we see politics placate the apathetic with silly superficial notions, we don't see complex philosophical political debates in politics, instead we see mudslinging and nonsensical displays. Who here thinks we need a rejuvenation of politics? a grassroots democratic, mass organization way to intelligently debating issues in substance rather than sound byte?

Anyways, maybe in another life I was a rich male Athenian citizen.
You are experiencing a classic case of Freshman Philosophy Minor Syndrome. This virulent illness afflicts a significant percentage of young men and women, and reaches epidemic levels on many university campuses.

Symptoms may include:

-General malaise and dissatisfaction with the status quo
-Hypographia, particularly taking the form of copious journal writing and/or composition of poetry
-Sudden fits of anger and desire to rage against The Man and/or Machine.
-Inexplicable enjoyment of maudlin alterna-rock
-Compulsive quoting of wealthy ancient Greek men

But never fear! This illness is not terminal. By the time you graduate, you'll be so cynical you won't give a crap any more.

Are you under the illusion that most Greeks gave a shit about what Aristotle and the like said?
Well, he seems to think that the way to recapture some lost Golden Age of true democracy and intelligent politics would be to emulate a time when all female human beings and minority ethnic groups were barred from participating in the process. So I don't think we're really working from historical sources at this point.

Well, he seems to think that the way to recapture some lost Golden Age of true democracy and intelligent politics would be to emulate a time when all female human beings and minority ethnic groups were barred from participating in the process. So I don't think we're really working from historical sources at this point.
But since we let women and minorty groups vote we've had two world wars, a cold war, a war on terrorism, hippies, Chernobyl, Vietnam etc.

It's true.

Well, he seems to think that the way to recapture some lost Golden Age of true democracy and intelligent politics would be to emulate a time when all female human beings and minority ethnic groups were barred from participating in the process. So I don't think we're really working from historical sources at this point.
Actually I think that the Athenian democracy, even with extremely limited franchise, is still better than the facade we have today.

Actually I think that the Athenian democracy, even with extremely limited franchise, is still better than the facade we have today.

Dismissed.

The problem with contemporary democracy is the scale of franchise; in Classical Athens, it was limited and hence ensured active, intelligent democracy. By contrast, universal franchise ensures only that the great unwashed unthinking masses cock the whole process up.

The problem with contemporary democracy is the scale of franchise; in Classical Athens, it was limited and hence ensured active, intelligent democracy. By contrast, universal franchise ensures only that the great unwashed unthinking masses cock the whole process up.
Well it certainly wasn't done deliberately in Athens for that reason, the culture and tradition of slavery, sexism and xenophobia existed for longer than the institution of Pericles reforms.

But since we let women and minorty groups vote we've had two world wars, a cold war, a war on terrorism, hippies, Chernobyl, Vietnam etc.

It's true.
Your ideas intrigue me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Your ideas intrigue me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
A sarcastic joke, my dear.:p

You are experiencing a classic case of Freshman Philosophy Minor Syndrome. This virulent illness afflicts a significant percentage of young men and women, and reaches epidemic levels on many university campuses.

Symptoms may include:

-General malaise and dissatisfaction with the status quo
-Hypographia, particularly taking the form of copious journal writing and/or composition of poetry
-Sudden fits of anger and desire to rage against The Man and/or Machine.
-Inexplicable enjoyment of maudlin alterna-rock
-Compulsive quoting of wealthy ancient Greek men

But never fear! This illness is not terminal. By the time you graduate, you'll be so cynical you won't give a crap any more.

What's wrong with writing copious amounts of poetry? :(

What's wrong with writing copious amounts of poetry? :(

By itself, nothing.

When the author is afflicted with Freshman Philosophy Minor Syndrome, however, there will be an alarming tendency toward open verse, slanted or absent rhyme schemes, and over-wrought cliches such as "light in the darkness."

By itself, nothing.

When the author is afflicted with Freshman Philosophy Minor Syndrome, however, there will be an alarming tendency toward open verse, slanted or absent rhyme schemes, and over-wrought cliches such as "light in the darkness."
Actually I have never written poetry, nor do I think I'd be good at it. I am also kind adverse to cliche writing as I cringe every time I write something that sounds that way, I let it go somewhat on forums.

I was just thinking, reading Aristotle, who I feel maybe the most ingenious philosophers, who died 2k years ago, how it seems we are incredibly poor in knowledge these days. Sure we can go to uni and do politics and philosophy, but the utility of such knowledge seems rare. Instead we see politics placate the apathetic with silly superficial notions, we don't see complex philosophical political debates in politics, instead we see mudslinging and nonsensical displays. Who here thinks we need a rejuvenation of politics? a grassroots democratic, mass organization way to intelligently debating issues in substance rather than sound byte?

Anyways, maybe in another life I was a rich male Athenian citizen.

Aristotle gave the three proofs as Ethos (the reputation of the speaker), Logos (logic), and Pathos (the emotional argument). He said that while humans liked the other two and wished to think that they made decisions on the other two, in the end all human decisions are made on Pathos.

Well it certainly wasn't done deliberately in Athens for that reason, the culture and tradition of slavery, sexism and xenophobia existed for longer than the institution of Pericles reforms.

Athenian democracy was an institution to elicit greater confidence than any modern democracy. The reasons for this are immaterial; their democracy worked rather better than ours.

Aristotle gave the three proofs as Ethos (the reputation of the speaker), Logos (logic), and Pathos (the emotional argument). He said that while humans liked the other two and wished to think that they made decisions on the other two, in the end all human decisions are made on Pathos.
Even if we do make decisions emotionally or whatnot, our role is not to question the validity of others votes in a democracy, only our own.

Athenian democracy was an institution to elicit greater confidence than any modern democracy. The reasons for this are immaterial; their democracy worked rather better than ours.

Indeed.

And it is quite hard when analyzing the Athenian constitution to find a more sound document for politics. Indeed corruption was all but non-existant and it worked remarkably well.

I'm sorry, but you seem to be mistaking Athenian Democracy for Utopia. Most of the philosophers of Ancient Greece lamented the system of democracy in Athens for the same reasons you lament modern democracy. This was when they weren't too busy calling each other frauds and idiots.

Even if we do make decisions emotionally or whatnot, our role is not to question the validity of others votes in a democracy, only our own.

But if we look at how GW got reelected we have to acknowledge that it came down to Gay Marriage that was thrown in at the very end. It was an emotional appeal that put him over the top. He had and has no intention to do anything to support the views of those voters but it got him elected.

And when he makes an attempt to gain a little ground, he pulls out fear.

There was very little logic in the election or in the governing of the country.

Indeed.

And it is quite hard when analyzing the Athenian constitution to find a more sound document for politics. Indeed corruption was all but non-existant and it worked remarkably well."The Republic has no need of geniuses." - the Judge who presided over Antoine Lavoisier's trial.

I presume something similar was said at Socrates trial too.

Athenian democracy was an institution to elicit greater confidence than any modern democracy. The reasons for this are immaterial; their democracy worked rather better than ours.

Actually there is no modern democracy. The term became fashionable because FDR began to use it as he wanted to aid the Democratic Party. Before that the nation was always described as a Republic. There is nothing in any of the basic documents of the US that says anything about a democracy.

The founders were in fact very anti democracy. They had no intention of allowing everyone to vote. They saw it as mob rule. At the time of the founding only land owners could vote. This was a very small per cent of the population but it was those that were informed and educated.

There's nothing wrong with questioning modern philoisophy. Unfortunately, we have been so bred to listen to this modern style that when one reads classical philosophy they become very discouraged with our society. It is definately not a lack of philosophy, just a different "school" of thought. It's kinda like a "I don't have to outrun the bear just one other person" view on life. It's the populous who allows such philosophy to flourish.

Does Max Barry count as an intellectual? :p