NationStates Jolt Archive

Tom Monaghan, founder of the worldwide Domino's Pizza chain, is sinking his billion-dollar fortune into a new town called Ave Maria, a joint venture with a local developer. It will number 11,000 new homes and, unsurprisingly for a man who opposes abortion, contraception and homosexuality, at the summit of this planned community is not a golf course but a church.

There is a lot more, so: Source. (http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=3452900)

It seems a interesting concept, and he claims everyone is welcome, but obviously there would be a lot of social pressure. He also could of used the money for the poor or something, but he's probaly already given millions.

Thoughts? Comments?

A catholic seperatist movement sounds good to me.:D

This has been old news in Michigan. It creeps the living hell out of me, but they can live wherever they want, with whatever restrictions they want, I suppose.

What pisses me off is that the Dominos bastard has the largest collection of Frank Lloyd Wright stuff in the world. He shares, of course, has to show it off and all, but I'm a firm believer in public museums.

Hmm...I would've used the money for a Catholic charity or create my own for work around the world, but if this is the way he wants to use it, he's free to. I guess it might have some good use in the end.

Several comments actually. First, that is good pizza. Second, he shows great choice in his reading. And third, what is so new about the idea of starting a college that leans in one direction? Harvard, Yale, Caimbridge, etc. all started out leaning in a direction... and look, they are still leaning in a certain direction... albeit a different one than what they started in. He is obviously a visionary for his denomination of Christianity. Anyways. I don't see anything wrong with it.

btw, i did notice it was kind of funny that all his personal and religious taboos were mentioned, while it seems that it may be possible for those taboos to be broken by said community. Maybe not encouraged, but not impossible. pointless point? maybe.

Rich American lunatics have always loved building "Utopias" of one sort or another. I think there were a bunch of socialist ones put together during the Industrial Revolution where the creators enforced all these wierd rules (like making everyone wear special shirts that had the buttons on the back, thus requiring another man's assistance to get dressed in the morning).
I think it has something to do with the end of feudalism, so the closest thing that the modern upper class can get to becoming Nobility is to build a small town dedicated to their favorite flavor of ice cream and round up a couple thousand people to live in it.

The one difference here is that he can have no special laws, or else he would be breaking federal or state law. But the social pressure to conform would be immense.

There is a lot more, so: Source. (http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=3452900)

It seems a interesting concept, and he claims everyone is welcome, but obviously there would be a lot of social pressure. He also could of used the money for the poor or something, but he's probaly already given millions.

Thoughts? Comments?

I read about this quite a while back. I've since sworn off Domino's pizza (not that it was one of my favorites anyway). He's free to try and build any silly utopian society he wishes, but I'm not about to help him bankroll it.

Thoughts? Comments?

that this is why I don't eat at dominos.

I hope their hospital has enough paediatric proctologists. Joke shamelessly stolen from PZ Myers (Pharyngula)

This reminds me of the reaction I had to Celebrations, the community set up by Disney World....


"...how Stepford Wives."

I almost wish he was doing this thing here so that I could move there and unleash hell.

hmmmmm seems to me that he is living in a dream world

first of all, you can make a catholic community but you cannot discriminate in real estate on the basis of religion so anyone can move into the town regardless of faith.

you can build a church but catholic churches are owned and staffed by the diocese. a catholic church cant advertise for a priest. they are sent by the bishop. i suppose a big contributor might be able to get a priest for his pet church but it takes one away from another location in the diocese that needs a priest just as much.

and of course you can build your own private college but if you are going to get government tuition assisstance for your students you cant discriminate on the basis of religion. why a non catholic would want to go to a brand new catholic college without reputation i dont know but he would have to let them in .

im sure its great to think of a catholic enclave where no one is gay, uses contraception or gets an abortion. where everyone goes to church every sunday and holy day of obligation. but really, he cant count on everyone who lives there sharing his morals and he has no way of enforcing them. (not that getting a bunch of conservative catholics all living in the same town would BE a utopia)

but i guess its as good a way as any to spend his fortune. i hope he includes lots of low income housing options so that even poor catholic can move to his utopia.

There is a lot more, so: Source. (http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=3452900)

It seems a interesting concept, and he claims everyone is welcome, but obviously there would be a lot of social pressure. He also could of used the money for the poor or something, but he's probaly already given millions.

Thoughts? Comments?
An excellent idea. Let religious nutters who want to ban porn, homosexuality, human rights for women, and all other such inconveniences go make their own little towns where they can oppress the snot out of each other to their hearts' content.

I look forward to the news reports in ten years, in which we will all hear about the rampant underground gay scene and the astronomical rates of adultery, STD infection, and teen pregnancies in that community.

am I the only one who feels reminded of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuggerei

The Fuggerei is a walled enclave within the city of Augsburg, Bavaria. It takes it name from the Fugger family and was founded in 1516 by Jacob Fugger the Younger (known as "Jacob Fugger the Rich") as a place where the needy citizens of Augsburg could be housed. By 1523, 52 houses had been built, and in the coming years the area expanded with various streets, small squares and a church. The gates were locked at night, so the Fuggerei was, in its own right, very similar to a small independent medieval town. It is still inhabited today, affording it the status of being the oldest social housing project in the world.
The rent was and is still one Rheinischer Gulden per year (equivalent to 0.88 Euros), as well as three daily prayers for the current owners of the Fuggerei - the Lord's Prayer, Hail Mary, and the Nicene Creed. The conditions to live there remain the same as they were 480 years ago: one must have lived at least two years in Augsburg, be of the Catholic faith and have become indigent without debt. The five gates are still locked every day at 10 PM.

All they need to do now is move to Africa and call the town "Monaghantown".

i hope he includes lots of low income housing options so that even poor catholic can move to his utopia.

Nope, according to what I read the homes are all $200,000 or above.

There is even going to be one more exclusive "gated" community touted as the "only gated community in Ave Maria" with its own private town square according to advertisement. Homes there are $300,000+ I think I saw.

Hot ice.
Honest lawyer.
Government intelligence.
Catholic utopia.

An excellent idea. Let religious nutters who want to ban porn, homosexuality, human rights for women, and all other such inconveniences go make their own little towns where they can oppress the snot out of each other to their hearts' content.

I look forward to the news reports in ten years, in which we will all hear about the rampant underground gay scene and the astronomical rates of adultery, STD infection, and teen pregnancies in that community.

Oh, snap!

Nope, according to what I read the homes are all $200,000 or above.

There is even going to be one more exclusive "gated" community touted as the "only gated community in Ave Maria" with its own private town square according to advertisement. Homes there are $300,000+ I think I saw.

then i would have to suggest that he is not doing it for religion but for profit.

then i would have to suggest that he is not doing it for religion but for profit.

He already has great money, doubt he could make that much of a profit it looks like he contracted with developers to build these and their the ones managing the building and selling.

Maybe he thinks like some silly people and wants only successful people there.

that this is why I don't eat at dominos.

and i thought it was that local, small buisness pizza plaxes are much better.

He already has great money, doubt he could make that much of a profit it looks like he contracted with developers to build these and their the ones managing the building and selling.

Maybe he thinks like some silly people and wants only successful people there.

perhaps he has a seperate buying assistance charity that has found a way to serve only catholics. *shrug*

it is not particularly catholic or christian to serve only the well-to-do with your dream community.

jesus would have rolled his eyes.

perhaps he has a seperate buying assistance charity that has found a way to serve only catholics. *shrug*

it is not particularly catholic or christian to serve only the well-to-do with your dream community.

jesus would have rolled his eyes.

there are all kinds of planned communities around, I don't think a Catholic one is any better or worse than the others...I really don't see the problem, he isn't making anyone live there, it's his money to spend, not yours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_Community

there are all kinds of planned communities around, I don't think a Catholic one is any better or worse than the others...I really don't see the problem, he isn't making anyone live there, it's his money to spend, not yours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_Community

i suppose his contribution is mainly in the building of a church and founding a college.

and as i said, its not like its legal to bar non catholics from your catholic town.

but its kinda creepy to set up a community for moderately well off and richer catholics and to pretend that it is somehow religiously appropriate. its just not.

"A dystopia is an utopia forced on you by a maniac." - Sam J. Lundwall.

Let's hope they at the very least respect the laws of the land.

I was actually able to meet Tom Monaghan once, and while his ideas really creeped me out, I guess there's nothing wrong theoretically with a whole town of like-minded people living together. But really, how long can this last before somebody does something stupid to a newcomer who they think isn't "as Catholic" as them and it all hits the fan?

Monaghan already tried this once, building the Ave Maria College in Ypsilanti, Michigan. That ended up going nowhere for almost a decade, so now he is trying to start again in Florida by not only owning the school, but the entire damn town as well.

Also worth mentioning is that while Monaghan started Domino's Pizza, he sold almost all of his shares back in 1998, so there's no moral problem with buying your pizza from there. I still think Pizza Hut is better, though.

i suppose his contribution is mainly in the building of a church and founding a college.

and as i said, its not like its legal to bar non catholics from your catholic town.

but its kinda creepy to set up a community for moderately well off and richer catholics and to pretend that it is somehow religiously appropriate. its just not.

there is a culty one here, my husband and I got invited, basically the "elders" own the land and all the houses and so they have some kind of legal protection to be able to discriminate, I am not sure exactly the specifics. Anyway, this specific community's concept is so creepy I just couldn't bear to go at all. (even to visit my friend who lives there)

there is a culty one here, my husband and I got invited, basically the "elders" own the land and all the houses and so they have some kind of legal protection to be able to discriminate, I am not sure exactly the specifics. Anyway, this specific community's concept is so creepy I just couldn't bear to go at all. (even to visit my friend who lives there)

your friend is happy there?

i wonder if there is some way around the law by declaring it some kind of dormitory arrangement. kinda making it the same reason why universities dont have to rent out dormitory space to the surrounding community.

your friend is happy there?
it's difficult to tell if she is happy there, she doesn't seem like my friend anymore. There isn't much I can do about it though, I called the police, and they said "some people believe different than you, get over it"



i wonder if there is some way around the law by declaring it some kind of dormitory arrangement. kinda making it the same reason why universities dont have to rent out dormitory space to the surrounding community.

probably something like that.

it's difficult to tell if she is happy there, she doesn't seem like my friend anymore. There isn't much I can do about it though, I called the police, and they said "some people believe different than you, get over it"



you wont talk her into leaving.

what you can do is to gently tell her the pitfalls of cult life. she wont believe them. but there will come a day when they start coming true in her life. the tendency is to blame herself for her problems but it might be that she remembers you telling her that these are the problems of cults. this can help her to decide that its a good time to move on.

she may then come to you for advice on what to do next.

otherwise it is her own life, if she is OK with the group there is no sense trying to talk her out of it.

Wow I can imagine growing up being gay in that community. As someone else said, someone is gonna do something like killing a non-catholic and the shit will hit the fan.

What a bunch of tools...

Will people who live there get a discount on pizzas?

there is a culty one here, my husband and I got invited, basically the "elders" own the land and all the houses and so they have some kind of legal protection to be able to discriminate, I am not sure exactly the specifics. Anyway, this specific community's concept is so creepy I just couldn't bear to go at all. (even to visit my friend who lives there)

What sort of cult? I ask mostly because the definition varies from person to person and group to group. I've heard people calling Wicca a cult and I've heard people try to say the Heavens Gate nutbars (nutbars who only hurt themselves, physically at least) weren't one.

What sort of cult? I ask mostly because the definition varies from person to person and group to group. I've heard people calling Wicca a cult and I've heard people try to say the Heavens Gate nutbars (nutbars who only hurt themselves, physically at least) weren't one.
their leader is a "prophet" of God, who has been apparently told by God Himself that women and children should not be allowed to attend church services or read the Bible. They have food restrictions, clothing restrictions, reading/viewing restrictions, and she is no longer able to leave without a chaperone and when she and I go to lunch one of the males from the compound has to go with us, she is not allowed to speak to him unless she is spoken to and I am not to address him at all. She isn't allowed to talk to my husband because he is "unholy" because we didn't come to the compound. I am considered "lost" because I speak to men that are not my husband without permission, I have a job, and I wear pants. It's idiotic. (although my problem with it could just be the rebel in me) My children and her children are no longer allowed to go on play dates because my children read books and watch movies that portray "loose" women.

you wont talk her into leaving.

what you can do is to gently tell her the pitfalls of cult life. she wont believe them. but there will come a day when they start coming true in her life. the tendency is to blame herself for her problems but it might be that she remembers you telling her that these are the problems of cults. this can help her to decide that its a good time to move on.

she may then come to you for advice on what to do next.

otherwise it is her own life, if she is OK with the group there is no sense trying to talk her out of it.

I think she is okay with it in the same way I was okay with my abusive boyfriend, not that I liked him beating the crap out of me, I just didn't reallys ee a way out of it.

I think she is okay with it in the same way I was okay with my abusive boyfriend, not that I liked him beating the crap out of me, I just didn't reallys ee a way out of it.

yeah i know what you mean.

but she may be stuck between the "no one loves me like he does" and the "if i leave he will hunt me down and kill me" phase of not leaving.

especially with religion invovled, she blames herself for whatever discontent she feels. in her mind its her sinfulness that is causing her to feel like she is trapped in a cage. she may need a bit of framework to hang the "this leader is wrong and im being abused" feelings onto. seeing you being in a happy life while being religious can help her to see that her current way of life isnt necessary.

and when she DOES realize that its time to get out she may need a nonjudgemental place to go. if she has a family they may have lectured her so often on how stupid she is to live this way that she wont feel comfortable turning to them and proving them right. you can be the one she turns to.

i wouldnt have gone to that compound either. you know it wouldnt have been 10 minutes before you lost it and told them what you really thought of their system. even if you could have kept your feelings to yourself (no one could) you wouldnt have enjoyed a single minute of it.

Well if it really is a Catholic Utopia, I sure as hell won't be sending my 6 year old brother there.

their leader is a "prophet" of God, who has been apparently told by God Himself that women and children should not be allowed to attend church services or read the Bible. They have food restrictions, clothing restrictions, reading/viewing restrictions, and she is no longer able to leave without a chaperone and when she and I go to lunch one of the males from the compound has to go with us, she is not allowed to speak to him unless she is spoken to and I am not to address him at all. She isn't allowed to talk to my husband because he is "unholy" because we didn't come to the compound. I am considered "lost" because I speak to men that are not my husband without permission, I have a job, and I wear pants. It's idiotic. (although my problem with it could just be the rebel in me) My children and her children are no longer allowed to go on play dates because my children read books and watch movies that portray "loose" women.

Yeah, that one pings pretty high on the cult scale. That sort of controlling behavior is a dead giveaway. I just don't understand how otherwise intelligent people can give away their free will and liberty like that.

EDIT: Thinking about it, I can see why someone would join such a group, but you have to wonder why anyone stays. But I'm a stubborn bitch, so...

I think she is okay with it in the same way I was okay with my abusive boyfriend, not that I liked him beating the crap out of me, I just didn't reallys ee a way out of it.

It's amazing how easily you get used to bad situations, isn't it? Redwulf and I lived with some friends for awhile, and despite the clear warning signs (paranoia, shotgun ownership, hard drug use), we didn't get out until they started using meth heavily. We finally realized what meth would do to their already paranoid minds, and we weren't willing to risk getting shot. They did a runner with lots of our stuff, but we really weren't willing to take the risk of going back. Somehow, fencing gear just wasn't worth gunshot wounds.

It's amazing how easily you get used to bad situations, isn't it? Redwulf and I lived with some friends for awhile, and despite the clear warning signs (paranoia, shotgun ownership, hard drug use), we didn't get out until they started using meth heavily. We finally realized what meth would do to their already paranoid minds, and we weren't willing to risk getting shot. They did a runner with lots of our stuff, but we really weren't willing to take the risk of going back. Somehow, fencing gear just wasn't worth gunshot wounds.

she has always had a very authoritarian mind, but early on I could see this "church" was a problem. They used to meet in this guy's home, and her kids weren't able to sit through the Bible study, so he said "why don't you stay home with them and just send your husband?" his explaination was that kids didn't go to church in the New Testament, when I asked her how he knew that, she said "prove they did", when I explained that me not being able to go back in time and prove whether or not kids were there isn't the same as him making a statement without being able to back it up........he called me. He explained how the husband is the spiritual leader of the household and how children can't be expected to go to church and how she should just stay home with them and let her husband go and he would bring back anything she needed to know.........when I said something about how I wouldn't stay home from church just because I am a woman, he said something to the effect of "well, that's because you are selfish" :eek:

Apparently women can't be trusted with "spiritual" things, they can't even really be trusted to speak without permission.

So no gays, no condoms, and strict Catholic Dogma following.

Welcome to the most boring place on Earth! :p

Apparently women can't be trusted with "spiritual" things, they can't even really be trusted to speak without permission.

Men. Well, men who use religion to enslave women. But why do women put up with it?

Stupid question, i guess. I'm lucky enough to have been raised to think for myself. Others don't have that luxury.

Men. Well, men who use religion to enslave women. But why do women put up with it?

Stupid question, i guess. I'm lucky enough to have been raised to think for myself. Others don't have that luxury.

low self esteem, guilt, fear, duty, etc.

(or any combo of the above)