NationStates Jolt Archive

Edit: When it comes down to it to see what is going on just watch what this child has to say
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLJzCNPm0qQ&mode=related&search=

What does everyone think of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvMnoXfmCHo&mode=related&search=

Jacob Schiff, a very successful Jewish banker said Zionism would cause "a separateness that would be fatal."

"When Zionist advocate Julius Haber tried to fundraise at a Lower East Side synagogue, an elderly man told him, "Young man, you are going against God's will. If he wanted us to have Zion again, He would restore it again without the help of the so-called Zionists. God doesn't need apprentices. Please go schnorr somewhere else and let us lament in peace, like good Jews."

http://ujc.org/page.html?ArticleID=53583

'The state of Israel should not exist' <This was said by a Rabbi named Yisroel Weiss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RjnvQHWyLE&mode=related&search= <I think this is the most interesting and enlightening video on the subject

P.S. Just found this video the guy that walks up and starts yelling it looks kind of staged...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dSHl3C9kgY

edit: A disturbing full length documentry http://youtube.com/watch?v=pJlqJTENh5E

Waiting to see how long it takes before the usual Bushevik and Kahanist contingent of the NSG posts here to call them heretics, traitors, apostates, dhimmis, etc. etc.

Glad to see there are Jews who aren't Kahanist fruitcakes, just as there are Muslims who aren't terrorists and Christians who aren't clinic bombers.

Glad to see there are Jews who aren't Kahanist fruitcakes, just as there are Muslims who aren't terrorists and Christians who aren't clinic bombers.

well said :D

Hey, where'd my wallet go!?

Zoink!

As far as I can tell from comparing Zionism to the original, Zionism is pretty much a perversion of the original ideas, not just putting the form above the meaning, but making it stomp all over it.

Though, OTOH, Zionism and Israel politics are quite funny. The world would be a little more boring without them.

Waiting to see how long it takes before the usual Bushevik and Kahanist contingent of the NSG posts here to call them heretics, traitors, apostates, dhimmis, etc. etc.

The usual term is "self hating Jew." I've been called that myself, on certain fora, just for criticizing Israel's policies. Let alone existence.

I find it rather strange that secular left-wing anti-Zionists like referencing reactionary homophobic religious fundamentalists to justify their (accurate) claim that anti-Zionism isn't anti-Semitism.

I find it rather strange that secular left-wing anti-Zionists like referencing reactionary homophobic religious fundamentalists to justify their (accurate) claim that anti-Zionism isn't anti-Semitism.

Any stranger than religious right-wing Kahanists and Christian Zionists who continue to insist opposing Israel's policies and practices are tantamount to blind, neo-Nazi grade anti-Semitism?

Any stranger than religious right-wing Kahanists and Christian Zionists who continue to insist opposing Israel's policies and practices are tantamount to blind, neo-Nazi grade anti-Semitism?

That's not strange at all. It's just stupid.

That video is spot-on correct, can't wait to see IDF jump in here and justify everything Israel's actions on the holocaust.

That video is spot-on correct

Actually, it's full of omissions and has some outright factual errors.

It is completely dishonest about the opinions of religiously devout Jews, for instance, which changed radically after the Holocaust.

Actually, it's full of omissions and has some outright factual errors.

It is completely dishonest about the opinions of religiously devout Jews, for instance, which changed radically after the Holocaust.But it supportys my idea, so it must be right!

Anyway, thhanks for being the voice of reason, Soheran.

*Bump*

Ok…. So tell me why should Israel exist?

Being a Jew doesn't make you any more correct.

*Bump*

Ok…. So tell me why should Israel exist?


...because if it dissappeared there'd be a huge fight over what to put there instead?

I have a question for those who would seek to destroy the state of Israel (NOT for those who would kill Jews, because they need a hobby...)

Just what would we do with those Jews still living in modern-day Israel? Who would administer the land? How would we ensure that the Muslims don't go Nazi on those living in Israel now? Because, trust me, there are plenty who would feel very justified in doing so.

The only workable solution I can think of in that case, and it's going to cost a lot of money, is to relocate the state of Israel, along with the people, to a new location. I suggest Kansas.

What does everyone think of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvMnoXfmCHo&mode=related&search=

Jacob Schiff, a very successful Jewish banker said Zionism would cause "a separateness that would be fatal."

"When Zionist advocate Julius Haber tried to fundraise at a Lower East Side synagogue, an elderly man told him, "Young man, you are going against God's will. If he wanted us to have Zion again, He would restore it again without the help of the so-called Zionists. God doesn't need apprentices. Please go schnorr somewhere else and let us lament in peace, like good Jews."

http://ujc.org/page.html?ArticleID=53583

'The state of Israel should not exist' <This was said by a Rabbi named Yisroel Weiss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RjnvQHWyLE&mode=related&search= <I think this is the most interesting and enlightening video on the subject

P.S. Just found this video the guy that walks up and starts yelling it looks kind of staged...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dSHl3C9kgY

I'm pro-Zionist and I'm not even Jewish. :D

*Bump*

Ok…. So tell me why should Israel exist?

It's good Feng Shui.

That there are jews who don't support israel, what are you trying to prove? there are muslims that support israel and there are muslimss who dont, there are christians who do and christians that don't. Why is it that you are so opposed to the state of israel's existence? Where do you want to put all these jews? they will gladly go anywhere you let them live in peace. Israel is currently the only true democracy in the middle east. why do you want this to be destroyed? It is a barrier between fundamentalist terrorist groups such as the Hamas and Hizbollah and the west. What has it done to you that you are so anti-Zionist? it is a country that is most likely as closest to your ideals as any in the region. Constantly under attack since its creation in 1948 and still subject to constant missile and terrorist attacks, it is a nation struggling for the survival of its own people. such a small nation too, the size of new-jersey, and with a population of 6 million. Why such hostility?

I'm pro-Zionist and I'm not even Jewish. :D
I avoid the term altogether.

*Bump*

Ok…. So tell me why should Israel exist?
Why should Indonesia exist? Why should France exist? Why should the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia exist? What makes Israel any different to any other country whose right to exist is not questioned?

That there are jews who don't support israel, what are you trying to prove? there are muslims that support israel and there are muslimss who dont, there are christians who do and christians that don't. Why is it that you are so opposed to the state of israel's existence? Where do you want to put all these jews? they will gladly go anywhere you let them live in peace. Israel is currently the only true democracy in the middle east. why do you want this to be destroyed? It is a barrier between fundamentalist terrorist groups such as the Hamas and Hizbollah and the west. What has it done to you that you are so anti-Zionist? it is a country that is most likely as closest to your ideals as any in the region. Constantly under attack since its creation in 1948 and still subject to constant missile and terrorist attacks, it is a nation struggling for the survival of its own people. such a small nation too, the size of new-jersey, and with a population of 6 million. Why such hostility?

One simple stupid little reason: he disagrees with their politics. They're too conservative in dealing with "freedom fighters" for his taste, ergo they should not exist.

That there (..........) Why such hostility?

Because they are conducting a campaign of colonisation and slow-drip ethnic cleansing in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem, forcing the inhabitants to live under a semi-apartheid regime.
And because on top of this, people come along and throw out the "brave little nation" line. Its a nuclear power beating the crap out of a civillian population armed with AKs and chants.

Are you being serious right now? Do you forget that until the beginning of the intifadas and after the wars, there was actually a state of calmness, where a large percent of the palestinians were allowed and did work in israel, until groups of extremists began to commit terrorist attacks against innocent Israeli civilians and Israel was forced to close its borders and act in its own defense. Is it only I who sees the headlines reading 'Hamas continues to send rockets over Israeli cities targetted at innocent civilians' and 'Israeli army targets and kills Islamic Jihad militants'? Is your memory impaired? are oyu in a state of self-denial or double think? Do you remember every single war when israel was attacked by all its surrounding neighbors? do you remember crazy brainwashed islamic fundamentalist terrorist groups putting 'firing a machine gun properly at Israelis' as the main subject in kindergarden? do you remember the countless times israel attempts to bring peace but must deal with a Hamas party in control whose main philosophy is 'destroy israel'? Do you forget Israel allowed Palestianians to visit their holy sites in Eastern Jerusalem for a long long time until they decided to vote for a militant group that aims at destroying israel? How is it that you see things in such a flawed way? these are the same type of terrorists as any, all fundamentalist muslims that want to bring about states of complete Shariah law. They want to kill the infidels. Just because christians arent around doesnt mean they dont want to kill them too. Get your vision fixed up there.

Because they are conducting a campaign of colonisation and slow-drip ethnic cleansing in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem, forcing the inhabitants to live under a semi-apartheid regime.
And because on top of this, people come along and throw out the "brave little nation" line. Its a nuclear power beating the crap out of a civillian population armed with AKs and chants.


False. They are resisting genocide, against a huge oppressive power. If the Arabs stopped fighting, there would be peace, if the Israelis stopped, there would be no more Israel.

Ethnic cleansing, bah. By the Arabs' own admission their numbers are INCREASING! It was the Arabs doing Ethnic cleansing, destroying the Jewish communities throughout the middle east. Libya, and Algeria, and Saudi Arabia FORBID Jewish citizens. Other Arab nations grant them no real political rights, insisting that their religion provides the supreme law of the land- and the last few Jewish survivors are dying out. Where are the once numerous Jews of Baghdad? Egypt? And with all that, Arabs dare squawk about Ethnic Cleansing because one tiny nation has turned them back?

May the world see the end of the Arab occuption of Berber lands.

Please add to that an additional noting of the secession of now northern gazan territories. Israel recently, against the will of the Jewish settlers, removed them from their settlements which were being bombed by Palestinians, to give the land as part of Gaza. This cost tens of millions of dollars for israel to do this in order to hopefully bring peace. What do the Palestinians do? Quickly come in to the lands they wree just given. TO SET UP NEW MISSILE LAUNCH SITES to bomb further inward into Israel. Are we not looking at the same situation herre? perhaps there are two Israels and Two Palestines we are talking about? Maybe its just a big confusion and we're talking about different places? This is a clear example of Israel doing everything for peace, and the Palestinians just taking advantage of it to bring about further war. Please tell me you have something, anything at all to say to counter this because it is just simply SO overwhelmingly obvious.

Waiting to see how long it takes before the usual Bushevik and Kahanist contingent of the NSG posts here to call them heretics, traitors, apostates, dhimmis, etc. etc.

Glad to see there are Jews who aren't Kahanist fruitcakes, just as there are Muslims who aren't terrorists and Christians who aren't clinic bombers.

You truly are preaching bullshit. Zionism != Kahanism. Your comparison falls for the simple fact that Kahanism is outlawed in the Knesset. If you did have a brain you would have done research and learned that Rabbi Kahane was banned from the Knesset.

Of course you know jack shit about Israel and Judaism so I shouldn't be surprised. You are a poster who always claims to oppose religious extremism yet in this case you are embracing it. Most Jews who are against Israel are against it because they are fundamentalist nuts. They aren't heretics, they are people who are so religious that they expect G-d to wipe their own ass for them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_against_zionism

Go read up on the Haredi. You might learn something.

what do i think of it?

i think that jews are not required to support israel. they can have differences of opinions just like any other group of people.

and just because they are jews doesnt mean that *I* have to take their opinions on israel more seriously than i do the opinion of non-jews.

I find it rather strange that secular left-wing anti-Zionists like referencing reactionary homophobic religious fundamentalists to justify their (accurate) claim that anti-Zionism isn't anti-Semitism.

Especially funny since Gauthier dismisses all other fundamentalists, but he supports the Haredi.

On a side note, I recommend that anyone interested in the whole Zionism/anti-Zionism debate among religious Jews should read "The Chosen." It's a pretty accurate description of how Hasidism reacted to Zionism in the 1940s and how today's Haredi see it.

Just out of curiousity, since we pretty much know what Zionism is, what do we call that strange political theory that says that a relatively obscure Germanic group called "Anglo-Saxons" should be allowed to control England, most of North America, and Australia? I for one question the legitimacy.

And what is the name for the political theory that says "Arabs get North Africa, because they look it from Berbers and Copts and others legitimately"?
I question the legitimacy there too.

And what do we call a person who claims not to be racist yet clearly has criticisms of Israel that he or she would never think of mentioning in the context of other nations, even if they have done far worse? What do we call a person who holds one group up for singular criticism while giving others a pass?

That video is spot-on correct, can't wait to see IDF jump in here and justify everything Israel's actions on the holocaust.

This coming from an idiot like yourself who proclaims that the USSR was a haven and that no one risked their lives fleeing through the Berlin Wall?

Instead of flat out calling you an anti-semite, which most posters who've read your history agree you are, I'll play a different game with you.

IMO can Zionist supporter is a legitimate target for helping such an ethnic-ultranationalist demagogy in it's terrible deeds.

http://forums3.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12297251&postcount=116

Let's take this single quote from your pathetic rants.

It is easy to interpret that you support the mass killing of 85-90% of the Jewish population and are thus anti-semitic.

I'm going to go a different route though.

I"m going to ask you a question

1: What is a Zionist

(anyone who supports the idea of Israel's existance is the answer. Any person who supports a 2 state solution even one giving up Jerusalem to the Arabs is by definition a Zionist whether they realize it or not)

Now I want to know your anwer to the question.

If you answer differently, then you are simply uneducated and thus your opinions on this matter are invalid due to your poor knowledge of simple concepts that are clear in any dictionary or encyclopedia.

If your answer is the same as mine and in line with the accepted definition, then you are anti-semite and your views are invalid because you would be a racist on the level of a moron like UB.

what do i think of it?

i think that jews are not required to support israel. they can have differences of opinions just like any other group of people.

and just because they are jews doesnt mean that *I* have to take their opinions on israel more seriously than i do the opinion of non-jews.

In fact it should say a lot about us that we have Jews who are against Israel. You see, we allow freedom of expression and aren't all required to be in lock step.

Take the Palestinians for example. If you support Israel in Gaza, you will be hanging from the nearest tree. Jews in Israel are allowed to decide for themselves. Not true for Palestinians.

Simply because these guys beleive in the Jewish God doesn't make them anymore logical and correct, geo-politically, than the next guy. Most of these tools want Israel dismantled because they think God will actually physically CREATE Israel for them, and don't beleive it's humanity's job to do what God will do.:rolleyes:

It's funny that those of you who support these religious extremists preach out against religious extremism.:rolleyes:

It's funny that those of you who support these religious extremists preach out against religious extremism.:rolleyes:

Most of these hypocrites aren't going to let that little inconvenience get in the way. They are even willing to support homophobic nuts in this case.

Are you being serious right now?..... up there.


None of that relates to any specific event or action. I prefer to deal with the obvious truths - Israel is the occupier, Israel is the one building the settlements. When Israel ceases both and withdraws, it will have ended justification for Palestinian violence. Until then, armed resistance is entirely justified.

(paragraphs will not hurt your case in the slightest, btw)

False. They are resisting genocide, against a huge oppressive power. If the Arabs stopped fighting, there would be peace, if the Israelis stopped, there would be no more Israel.

Ethnic cleansing, (....)tiny nation has turned them back?

Yes, thats the "brave little nation" tripe I mentioned earlier. You'll find that most people don't see appropriating land from farmers for apartment blocks for another states civillians as a defensive action. An offensive action perhaps, and in a number of interpretations of the word.


Please add to that an additional noting of the secession of now northern gazan territories. Israel recently, against the will of the Jewish settlers, removed them from their settlements ......overwhelmingly obvious.
.

Firstly, the Gaza area was never Israels to begin with, and secondly Why should Palestinian hostility end when there are even more troops and colonists in the other occupied territories? The settlers were moved out because it was considered unsustainable to have 8,000 settlers guarded by 30,000 troopd. Those people and resources were shifted to the West Bank, as part the build up to a unilateral declaration of final borders by sharon - something his successors may well follow up on.

Why should Indonesia exist? Why should France exist? Why should the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia exist? What makes Israel any different to any other country whose right to exist is not questioned?

What about Arabs that are living there? I see no reason why foreigners should be moving in and occupying this land.

I don't think religion should be used to justify it, especially since this religion in reality condemns it!


Where do you want to put all these Jews?

They can live wherever they want, they lived in the Middle East with out any trouble for hundreds of years without Israel, I don't know of any conflict between Jews and Muslims before modern times. So I ask you where do the Palestinians supposed to go?

Jews have made loyal citizens in America, Europe and other places for years. Persecution of Jews is a horrible things but it doesn't justify this

This is a long documentry on the subject if you want to see what's happening to the people who already lived on this land:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pJlqJTENh5E

So now I have a question for everyone, what right does a Jewish state have to exist anymore than a White Nationalist state? Unless they can find unoccupied land like an island I say none

Not only the original claim of this thread but the things you say. 'I dont care about specific events you mentioned and the unarguable examples you give and i have no reply to any of those because all i care about is the obvious truth'' what in the world do you mean that israel should end the occupation?? what are you talking about/? the palestinians claim to have the right to all of israel. it will never end. you are either being naive or plainly lack clarity. I suggest you purchase a pair of glasses before posting additional nonesense. The Palestinians HAVE where to go and this is a fact. About half of Jordan's population is made up of Palestinians. They have a huge number of regional muslim nations they can go to. That's the thing, Israelis DONT have where to go. foreigners? we're all foreigners. why should americans occupy the USA? they are foreigners to the natives. what is wrong with your course of logic. do you simply skim through what we post and avoid the facts or have you actually set up a system in your brain that discards certain facts like 2+2=5 (Orwell) You truly seem to be hallucinating. simply ignoring all the overwhelming evidence, everything we just said by concluding a sentence such as "I prefer to deal with the obvious truths - Israel is the occupier, Israel is the one building the settlements." It doesn't matter whether I write in paragraphs or not because whether you read it or not, it seems that somehow your mind does not allow you to absorb the material read. This is truly futile. A shortened version of our conversation:
You: Truth A
Me: Fact 1, fact 2 ,fact 3, fact 4,fact 5, all proving 'truth A' wrong
You: Yeah, but all I deal with is Truth A and until truth A stops all facts can be discarded.
Me: (this is present) I can't argue with someone who completely disregards anything I say. You win, my case is futile because somehow this is the equivalent of you not reading anyhting i write. congratulations.

in case you do read the posts, you too might as well go ahead and et a pair of glasses as well. Not only does israel allow all faiths to remain in the country and worship their holy sites, it is one of the most liberal nations in the world. Please, this is so ridiculously plain I feel like I'm explaining this to a 6 year old. Lets look around for a minute. Choose a nation. Any muslim nation around. Say, Hmmm, for example, Syria, or Palestine, or whatever you choose. Place anyone who claims not to believe in Mohammad. If he survives more than several days I would be highly surprised. Are you blind? is all i can say. if so how do you type? how are you not ashamed of yourself to write in such a forum about things so obvious. If you knew the first thing about Israel you would realize how wrong you are. You are simply clueless. If you know how to read, I have a suggested reading for you. ANYTHING THAT RELATES TO ISRAEL AT ALL. Go and read, come back, and I hope for your sake you don't humiliate yourself any further.

in case you do read the posts, you too might as well go ahead and et a pair of glasses as well. Not only does israel allow all faiths to remain in the country and worship their holy sites, it is one of the most liberal nations in the world. Please, this is so ridiculously plain I feel like I'm explaining this to a 6 year old. Lets look around for a minute. Choose a nation. Any muslim nation around. Say, Hmmm, for example, Syria, or Palestine, or whatever you choose. Place anyone who claims not to believe in Mohammad. If he survives more than several days I would be highly surprised. Are you blind? is all i can say. if so how do you type? how are you not ashamed of yourself to write in such a forum about things so obvious. If you knew the first thing about Israel you would realize how wrong you are. You are simply clueless. If you know how to read, I have a suggested reading for you. ANYTHING THAT RELATES TO ISRAEL AT ALL. Go and read, come back, and I hope for your sake you don't humiliate yourself any further.

"They can live wherever they want, they lived in the Middle East with out any trouble for hundreds of years without Israel, I don't know of any conflict between Jews and Muslims before modern times."
PLEASE, go learn history. ill point you in the direction of Mohammad. Also try Keyword 'Khaybar'. This is a bunch of uneducated people, I am ashamed to have posted in this forum in the first place and appologize.

PLEASE, go learn history. ill point you in the direction of Mohammad.

Don't be a fool, Jews are protected people in islam

And how would you like a forign force to come over and take your freaking house.

edit: Just looked up Khaybar, still for the most part in history Muslums and Jews got along and baby sat each others kids

young one, although you may be unexperienced in the area of logical reasoning, let me give you some hints. the proper way to argue in my opinion is this:
step 1: read about the subject
step 2: make sure you know what you're talking about
step 3: post your opinion about the facts you've read

as opposed to:
step 1: post your opinion
step 2: make up facts and work around existing facts to support your opinion
step 3: ignore opposing claims

i am happy to see you actually noticed something i wrote that registered but there is much more for you to learn before begin able to comment seriously.

as for this: "And how would you like a forign force to come over and take your freaking house."
not only is this missaid and wrong, lets pretend for a minute its right.
I propose starting a new thread titled:
"DOWN WITH AMERICA, GIVE THE LAND BACK TO THE INDIANS, DOWN WITH THE USA"
I am appalled at these americans.
lets see what kind of reaction that will get. Just because there are fewer Israelis than Americans to argue their point doesn't make it less correct. (By the way just to point out, that I have said this before, but was simply disregarded by your eyes (or maybe brain who knows)).

P.S. Watch this documentry incase you missed it

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pJlqJTENh5E

yea and also try 'kill all the infidels'. Hmm I wonder where I heard that.. couldn't have been from those peace-loving religion-tolerating liberal democratic civil rights full Muslims. It must have been the Jews or something. Have you fallen on your head?

"DOWN WITH AMERICA, GIVE THE LAND BACK TO THE INDIANS, DOWN WITH THE USA"


This is true and I'm ashamed of it, but it's something thats already happened and most of the Indian population is gone.

Much of palastine still exists and it's not too late to give it back to who it belongs to, and the situation is as bad as apartheid

there are more Indians than palestinians. you must be joking when comparing this to apartheid. once again you disregard half of what i say to what is comfortable for your argumetn

yea and also try 'kill all the infidels'. Hmm I wonder where I heard that.. couldn't have been from those peace-loving religion-tolerating liberal democratic civil rights full Muslims. It must have been the Jews or something. Have you fallen on your head?

The native Americans were justified in killing us in trying to keep their land but at first they met us in peace and even taught us how to grow corn

This isn't a Muslum problem it is a zionest problem, Muslums and Jews lived in peace

they have a country hey have where to live. Israelis dont. we dont want to occupy Gaza and we're not in Gaza. they can have their own happy state. where do you want Israelis to go, honestly?

the principle muslim doctrine for fundamentalists is kill the infidels. they dont want to have peace with infidels. its the wya things are.

the same ones who want to destroy israel are the ones who want to destroy america and the west. they will never live in peace.

they have a country hey have where to live. Israelis dont. we dont want to occupy Gaza and we're not in Gaza. they can have their own happy state. where do you want Israelis to go, honestly?

They were good and dandy before Zionism. In any history book you'll see Muslims and Jews got along in the middle east. They prospered as American and European citizens (insert stereotype here), the only thing that entitles them to that land is some scriptures that supposedly come from a man in the sky and that man in the sky doesn't even want Israel to exist

What does everyone think of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvMnoXfmCHo&mode=related&search=

Jacob Schiff, a very successful Jewish banker said Zionism would cause "a separateness that would be fatal."

"When Zionist advocate Julius Haber tried to fundraise at a Lower East Side synagogue, an elderly man told him, "Young man, you are going against God's will. If he wanted us to have Zion again, He would restore it again without the help of the so-called Zionists. God doesn't need apprentices. Please go schnorr somewhere else and let us lament in peace, like good Jews."

http://ujc.org/page.html?ArticleID=53583

'The state of Israel should not exist' <This was said by a Rabbi named Yisroel Weiss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RjnvQHWyLE&mode=related&search= <I think this is the most interesting and enlightening video on the subject

P.S. Just found this video the guy that walks up and starts yelling it looks kind of staged...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dSHl3C9kgY

edit: A disturbing full length documentry http://youtube.com/watch?v=pJlqJTENh5E

Waiting to see how long it takes before the usual Bushevik and Kahanist contingent of the NSG posts here to call them heretics, traitors, apostates, dhimmis, etc. etc.

Glad to see there are Jews who aren't Kahanist fruitcakes, just as there are Muslims who aren't terrorists and Christians who aren't clinic bombers.

The video strikes me as being anti-Semitic. I know that many people will say it is merely anti-ZIONIST and not anti-Semitic, but see my reply to Soheran here.

I find it rather strange that secular left-wing anti-Zionists like referencing reactionary homophobic religious fundamentalists to justify their (accurate) claim that anti-Zionism isn't anti-Semitism.

Actually, judging from history and how the Jewish people have fared in any land other than their own, anti-Zionism IS very close to, if not synonymous with, anti-Semitism.

Any stranger than religious right-wing Kahanists and Christian Zionists who continue to insist opposing Israel's policies and practices are tantamount to blind, neo-Nazi grade anti-Semitism?

That video is spot-on correct, can't wait to see IDF jump in here and justify everything Israel's actions on the holocaust.

*Bump*

Ok…. So tell me why should Israel exist?

Because God promised the land of Palestine to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob unconditionally, and that He would bless those who bless the Jews and curse those who curse the Jews. Although God gave them the law later on and told them they had to keep it if they wanted to stay in the land, that did NOT change God's oath to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. If Israel broke God's law, He could throw them out TEMPORARILY, but because of His unconditional promise to Abraham of the land grant, He had to bring them back eventually; He couldn't, lest He make Himself a liar by breaking His covenant with Abraham, force them to wander the earth forever.

And also, if the Gentiles attempt to destroy Israel, God has made it clear in the Bible that He will destroy the Gentiles in retribution for their crimes against His people.

THAT is why Israel should exist.

there are more Indians than palestinians. you must be joking when comparing this to apartheid. once again you disregard half of what i say to what is comfortable for your argumetn

I don't want to insult anyone but Indians (I should have said native Americans) are a very small number of people any many are broken and living on reservations, you won't see any great native American nations rise again on this continent.

Palestinians on the other hand still make up over 50% of the population, and it's still their rightful land and they havn't all been broken and put in reservations yet

this is exactly where you get things wrong. what entitles israel to this land is that the entire body of the UN decided to give people of Jewish ETHNICITY (not religion as most Israelis are not religious) a country of their own. And also Britain willing to give up its land for them to live there. When Britain was in Palestine noone said a thing about occupation. now the palestinians use the fact that the world is full of antisemites to try and capture this land.

once again, get your facts right please or this argument is realy a bunch of bullshit. there are 6 millions jews and 1.5 million palestinians. I dont know my percentages very well but are you sure thats 50%?

They were good and dandy before Zionism. In any history book you'll see Muslims and Jews got along in the middle east. They prospered as American and European citizens (insert stereotype here), the only thing that entitles them to that land is some scriptures that supposedly come from a man in the sky and that man in the sky doesn't even want Israel to exist

Then why, pray tell, did that "man in the sky" promise their ancestors (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) that their descendents would inherit the land forever?

So-called "Zionism" is actually little, if anything, more than fulfillment of Bible prophecy; God said that even though He had kicked them out of their land, He would bring them back and keep them there permanently.

i disagree with you. see my previous post as to why zionism is legitimate

the principle muslim doctrine for fundamentalists is kill the infidels. they dont want to have peace with infidels. its the wya things are.

the same ones who want to destroy israel are the ones who want to destroy america and the west. they will never live in peace.

100% correct. Of course, so-called "anti-Zionists" won't acknowledge this; they insist that ALL Muslims are peace-loving, live-and-let-live kind of people, when in fact they are NOT all that way, and that the Jews are "wicked" and "imperialistic" when the truth is that, since they got run out of their land, they have always been persecuted, discriminated against, and slaughtered en masse, in almost ANY country where they went except their own, and they need their own country in order to escape this persecution.

What does everyone think of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvMnoXfmCHo&mode=related&search=

Jacob Schiff, a very successful Jewish banker said Zionism would cause "a separateness that would be fatal."

"When Zionist advocate Julius Haber tried to fundraise at a Lower East Side synagogue, an elderly man told him, "Young man, you are going against God's will. If he wanted us to have Zion again, He would restore it again without the help of the so-called Zionists. God doesn't need apprentices. Please go schnorr somewhere else and let us lament in peace, like good Jews."

http://ujc.org/page.html?ArticleID=53583

'The state of Israel should not exist' <This was said by a Rabbi named Yisroel Weiss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RjnvQHWyLE&mode=related&search= <I think this is the most interesting and enlightening video on the subject

P.S. Just found this video the guy that walks up and starts yelling it looks kind of staged...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dSHl3C9kgY

edit: A disturbing full length documentry http://youtube.com/watch?v=pJlqJTENh5E


They have as much right to exist as anybody so chill

Not only the(.....) congratulations.

Again, I fail to see any reasoning to your point. The Jordanians are already a minority in their own country because of refugees caused by Israel, and you want them to become a smaller own because Israel wants yet more land?

And are you saying that Israel is not building colonies in the territories? Or are you trying to justify it?



in case you do read the posts, ....., this is so ridiculously plain I feel like I'm explaining this to a 6 year old. Lets look around for a minute. Choose a nation. Any muslim nation around......

What have muslim nations got to do with it? I might point out that the territories are officially (with the exception of Arab East Jerusalem which Israel considers annexed) not Israeli territory and the regime that exists there for the Arabs is considerably different from the one in Israel proper. Theres a two-tier system there, as I'm sure you're aware.



Because God promised the land of Palestine to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac,......

This "god" character...do his promises and commands have standing in the courts? For instance if I kill in his name, do I get off?



this is exactly where you get things wrong. what entitles israel to this land is that the entire body of the UN decided to give people of Jewish ETHNICITY (not religion as most Israelis are not religious) a country of their own. ,......

Those would be the 1948 borders, correct?

Props to Intelligenstan's posts in this thread. Your thoughts on this are well thought out and concise.
Bravo :)

Then why, pray tell, did that "man in the sky" promise their ancestors (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) that their descendents would inherit the land forever?

Because the Jewish Messiah dude hasn't come yet. Once this messiah comes and he can prove to me he is deemed special by God the Zionists can claim whatever they want

That's if you want to look at it from a religious perspective

"When Zionist advocate Julius Haber tried to fundraise at a Lower East Side synagogue, an elderly man told him, "Young man, you are going against God's will. If he wanted us to have Zion again, He would restore it again without the help of the so-called Zionists. God doesn't need apprentices. Please go schnorr somewhere else and let us lament in peace, like good Jews."

Props to Intelligenstan's posts in this thread. Your thoughts on this are well thought out and concise.
Bravo :)

He's hardly literate.

He's hardly literate.

And yet he obviously understands this issue better than almost anyone here. ;)

ChaZZZy

:cool:

And yet he obviously understands this issue better than almost anyone here. ;)

ChaZZZy

:cool:

However, he fails to express them in a well-thought out and concise manner.

there are more Indians than palestinians. you must be joking when comparing this to apartheid. once again you disregard half of what i say to what is comfortable for your argumetn

Unless you're talking about Indians that are actually from India, I'd like to point out that your statement is not true.

Thank you ChaZZZlandia. As for Seathornia, I couldn't agree with you more. I think my english spelling and grammar (which is in my opinion more than fantastic for my 3rd language [how is your 3rd language spelling and grammar?]) is absolutely and completely vital to the issue between Israel and Palestine. To Markelia, who at least reads my posts unlike Nordinia (to whom my message is read the posts I wrote first.) I don't justify anything of Israel from the God part. Yes I believe Israel has claim to its 48 borders. At least we've established that and htats a GREAT step forward I'm happy to have gotten somewhere in this after all. That is around 95% of its territory. Now, in the series of wars following its independence Israel captured land from Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and Palestinians. We returned land to Jordan and Egypt in return for peace. We returned land to Syria for a ceasefire. and we returned land to lebanon for stability there. All these were because they were not bound to attack us from the land we gave back to them. The Palestinians however, do not stop there. The moment we give them any land, they will want more. What you don't understand is that if you talk to any palestinian, they will tell you that they would not stop until they have all of israel. When we will see that they will stop if we give them lands, we most certainly will, and have started to do so, and also passed laws restricting further settlement in regions of the west bank.

You truly are preaching bullshit. Zionism != Kahanism. Your comparison falls for the simple fact that Kahanism is outlawed in the Knesset. If you did have a brain you would have done research and learned that Rabbi Kahane was banned from the Knesset.

Kahanism as a political organization is outlawed in Israel sure, but does that apply to Israeli citizens having Kahanist beliefs or sympathies? How can the Israeli government screen every single citizen for whether or not they have Kahanist viewpoints short of them letting everyone know?

And where the hell did you get this idea I was trying to equate Zionism and Kahanism? On the contrary I emphasize how separate they are. Zionists are for a Jewish homeland- i.e. Israel and I have no problem with that. Kahanism on the other hand takes that wonderful idea and goes considerably further, with a belief of expelling all non-Jews from said homeland with a dash of making said homeland as large as possible and fuck anyone else who gets in the way.

Of course you know jack shit about Israel and Judaism so I shouldn't be surprised. You are a poster who always claims to oppose religious extremism yet in this case you are embracing it. Most Jews who are against Israel are against it because they are fundamentalist nuts. They aren't heretics, they are people who are so religious that they expect G-d to wipe their own ass for them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_against_zionism

Go read up on the Haredi. You might learn something.

I am. I'm namely opposing the active support and efforts of Evangelical Christian Zionists and their ilk, who are really praying for Israel to turn into a complete strife-ridden shithole just because that means it'll send a Bat Signal to Jesus to get The Second Coming started. But I suppose you welcome that.

And you claim you're concerned about Israel's well-being.

I think my english spelling and grammar (which is in my opinion more than fantastic for my 3rd language [how is your 3rd language spelling and grammar?]) is absolutely and completely vital to the issue between Israel and Palestine.

I wasn't debating you or your assessments, but the assessment of another poster who claimed your thoughts were well-thought out and concise. They were not and therefore, I disagreed.

Actually, judging from history and how the Jewish people have fared in any land other than their own, anti-Zionism IS very close to, if not synonymous with, anti-Semitism.That depends a whole lot on what you mean by Zionism. If it, for example, means the creation of the holy land of scripture, then your argument is not valid at all.

I have no problems with the Jewish peoples in general, and absolutely agree the state of Israel needs to continue to exist. I'm also radically opposed to Zionism and to the violently oppressive policies of the state of Israel. Calling me an anti-semite has no more basis in reality than calling me a goldfish.

This isn't a Muslum problem it is a zionest problem, Muslums and Jews lived in peace

That's a gross simplification of about 1200 years of history. Yes, by and large Jews were treated better in Muslim countries than they were in Christian countries (although that's not saying much) but there was still plenty of conflict. It's misleading to suggest that Jews and Muslims have been locked in a battle to the death since the dawn of time, but it's equally misleading to suggest that everything was fluffy and that rivers ran with chocolate before the founding of Israel.

Thank you ChaZZZlandia. As (,,,,,,,,,)to do so, and also passed laws restricting further settlement in regions of the west bank.

Yet Israeli settlement continues apace in the West Bank/Arab East Jerusalem. Thats hardly going to create peace in the future, is it? And do bear in mind that the landis not Israels to give, but to give back.

What about Arabs that are living there? I see no reason why foreigners should be moving in and occupying this land.
The Israelis aren't foreigners. Two thirds of Israeli Jews were born there (linky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Jews)) and I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority who live there have spend more time in Israel than not. Arabs living in Israel/Occupied Territories need not be disadvantaged by Israel's existance under a two state solution.

I don't think religion should be used to justify it, especially since this religion in reality condemns it!
I don't think anybody does use religion to justify Israel's existence. Most people are content to use international law.

The Israelis aren't foreigners. Two thirds of Israeli Jews were born there.That's only because they breed. They were foreigners when they came there in the first half of the 20th century. The fact that they have reproduced does not make the implantation of an alien religious group into the region to artificially create a "nation" less wrong.

Yet Israeli settlement continues apace in the West Bank/Arab East Jerusalem. Thats hardly going to create peace in the future, is it?There will be peace when the territory is completely annexed by Israel settlement. The Latin word "pacare" describes this pretty well.

And do bear in mind that the land is not Israels to give, but to give back.That's a point most folks willfully ignore.

And full Israeli citizenship for all Palestinians!

That's only because they breed. They were foreigners when they came there in the first half of the 20th century. The fact that they have reproduced does not make the implantation of an alien religious group into the region to artificially create a "nation" less wrong.Doesn't make their forcefull displacement to Nowherestan more legitimate either. But by all means, let's hear your Endlösung.

That's only because they breed. They were foreigners when they came there in the first half of the 20th century. The fact that they have reproduced does not make the implantation of an alien religious group into the region to artificially create a "nation" less wrong.

All nations are artificial.

Let me offer a hypothetical situation to help understand how, from an objective point of view, the presence of Israel isn't right:

Let's say that there's a very vocal group of Amerinds (American Indians, or Native Americans, or whatever you want to call them) who believe, for religious reasons, that the entirety of the US rightfully belongs to them, partially because they were kicked out of their lands, and partially because their Great Spirit or whatever had promised it to them.

Now, say there's a small but extremely vocal group of people in Europe who also believe in this Great Spirit, and think that the Amerinds need to control the US in order to summon the Great Spirit down to Earth and bring about an ultimate judgment. The general population of Europe is sympathetic to the general idea of the Great Spirit philosophy, and if they aren't, then they at least see the wisdom in the Amerinds getting their land back after so much persecution.

The fundamentalists end up so entrenched in the political system that they are able to petition the UN to act on their behalf. The UN uses its authority to partition up the United States, giving approximately half of the US to the Amerinds. Attacks by the allies of the US on the new Amerind Territory end up with the Amerinds taking more land than was originally granted to them, but there is no action against them to keep the balance in check. In fact, Europe very publicly sends arms and technology to the Amerind Territories. The Amerinds end up occupying the entire US, and the US descends into poverty. The US ends up with little to no UN representation, and the political atmosphere misinterprets criticism of the Amerind Territories as advocating continued persecution against Amerinds or supporting the acts of radical US citizens against Amerind settlements.

Let me offer a hypothetical situation to help understand how, from an objective point of view, the presence of Israel isn't right:

Let's say that there's a very vocal group of Amerinds (American Indians, or Native Americans, or whatever you want to call them) who believe, for religious reasons, that the entirety of the US rightfully belongs to them, partially because they were kicked out of their lands, and partially because their Great Spirit or whatever had promised it to them.

Now, say there's a small but extremely vocal group of people in Europe who also believe in this Great Spirit, and think that the Amerinds need to control the US in order to summon the Great Spirit down to Earth and bring about an ultimate judgment. The general population of Europe is sympathetic to the general idea of the Great Spirit philosophy, and if they aren't, then they at least see the wisdom in the Amerinds getting their land back after so much persecution.

The fundamentalists end up so entrenched in the political system that they are able to petition the UN to act on their behalf. The UN uses its authority to partition up the United States, giving approximately half of the US to the Amerinds. Attacks by the allies of the US on the new Amerind Territory end up with the Amerinds taking more land than was originally granted to them, but there is no action against them to keep the balance in check. In fact, Europe very publicly sends arms and technology to the Amerind Territories. The Amerinds end up occupying the entire US, and the US descends into poverty. The US ends up with little to no UN representation, and the political atmosphere misinterprets criticism of the Amerind Territories as advocating continued persecution against Amerinds or supporting the acts of radical US citizens against Amerind settlements.

I think if four million Indians REALLY wanted to have part of the U.S. to run on their own, then there's nothing wrong with that. Find me four million Native Americans that would care though. Indians are treated a lot better here, then Jews are treated in the Middle-East.

None of that relates to any specific event or action. I prefer to deal with the obvious truths - Israel is the occupier, Israel is the one building the settlements. When Israel ceases both and withdraws, it will have ended justification for Palestinian violence. Until then, armed resistance is entirely justified.


I just wish to examine this one statement in historical context, put aside the entire "Zionism is right\wrong" bit and focus on the Justification of Palestinian Armed resistence.
The original UN partition divided the current area not between the "Israelis" and the "Palestenians", but gave the Gaza strip to Egypt, the West Bank to Jordan, and Jerusalem (which was supposed to be international) was gobbled up by Jordan along with its Jewish citizens.
In 1967, Israel occupied the West Bank and the Gaza strip.
Was there peace before the occupation in 1967? What was the Justification in 1964, say?
What makes you think that if Israel simply pulled out now there would still be peace?
And as far as the history of the region, I'm quite sure that the area in which Israel is at now is considered a Proper State for the first time in about 3,000 years. After the exile of the Jews it was occupied by Romans, Byzantines, Turks, French, Christians, Brits, and a whole slew of other nations. The division of the UN in '47 didn't steal land from an existing nation. It simply set boundries to a plot of land which was laid without claim for quite a long time. People lived there, of course, but they weren't a state of their own. They were mostly refugees from Jordan and Lebanon.

Jews can be citizens wherever they choose to as they have been doing for thousands of years, they've made loyal citizens of countries like America. The land belongs to the Palastininians.

Israeli Apartheid, If you havn't yet watch this documenty http://youtube.com/watch?v=pJlqJTENh5E

........ It simply set boundries to a plot of land which was laid without claim for quite a long time. People lived there, of course, but they weren't a state of their own. They were mostly refugees from Jordan and Lebanon.

No idea what you're trying to get at, and the whole "refugees" bit is news to me. Those in the West Bank and Gaza are- many of them-refugees from what is now Israel.

The fact that there was violence before 1967 is neither here nor there, as the main cause now is the Israeli occupation. There was no Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah or suicide bombers pre-1967 either, it might be noted.

*Bump*

Ok…. So tell me why should Israel exist?

It was created by a UN Resolution.

Get over it.

That's a gross simplification of about 1200 years of history. Yes, by and large Jews were treated better in Muslim countries than they were in Christian countries (although that's not saying much) but there was still plenty of conflict. It's misleading to suggest that Jews and Muslims have been locked in a battle to the death since the dawn of time, but it's equally misleading to suggest that everything was fluffy and that rivers ran with chocolate before the founding of Israel.

It was really more of a - I ignore you, you ignore me - situation for most of history.

Why should I get over it, how about the natives of the land

What about them?

It was created by a UN Resolution.

Get over it.

Why should I get over it, how about the natives of the land

2,000 years=close enough to being a native

Allot of Israelis try to convince themselves the natives to Palistine are sub-human to justify their actions, of course this goes the other way around too unfortunately

What about them?

Zionists are forign occupiers with no legitimate claim to the land outside of a bunch of scriptures that in reality actually forbid them to have a state

All I'm saying is that the Palestinians and the Jews have about the same rights to claim the land.
The last time the area was under Jewish control was about 3,000-4,000 years ago. And it's rediculous to make a valid claim based on such a fact.
The Palestinians never really controlled the area. Before the Jews came to the region, the British controlled it. Before that, the Ottomans. The Palestinians are not even indigenous to the region. Many of them came from Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia. And we're not talking about ancient times. Were talking about 200-300 years ago.
My two cents are these:
The Jews claim the land due to ancient history. It makes as much sense as Italy wishing to revive the Roman Empire and claiming Europe.

The Palestinians aren't really a nation. They never really had a country. They are Muslims who came to the land from other Muslim nations, and always lived under occupation and quite happily, if I might add.

Therefore- both claims are absurd.

Thank you ChaZZZlandia. As for Seathornia, I couldn't agree with you more. I think my english spelling and grammar (which is in my opinion more than fantastic for my 3rd language [how is your 3rd language spelling and grammar?]) is absolutely and completely vital to the issue between Israel and Palestine. To Markelia, who at least reads my posts unlike Nordinia (to whom my message is read the posts I wrote first.) I don't justify anything of Israel from the God part. Yes I believe Israel has claim to its 48 borders. At least we've established that and htats a GREAT step forward I'm happy to have gotten somewhere in this after all. That is around 95% of its territory. Now, in the series of wars following its independence Israel captured land from Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and Palestinians. We returned land to Jordan and Egypt in return for peace. We returned land to Syria for a ceasefire. and we returned land to lebanon for stability there. All these were because they were not bound to attack us from the land we gave back to them. The Palestinians however, do not stop there. The moment we give them any land, they will want more. What you don't understand is that if you talk to any palestinian, they will tell you that they would not stop until they have all of israel. When we will see that they will stop if we give them lands, we most certainly will, and have started to do so, and also passed laws restricting further settlement in regions of the west bank.

Not being considered here in this discussion, are the peace treaties that Israel signed with Jordan and Egypt over 30 years ago. In the end there is LASTING peace because all 3 countries want LASTING peace. Also most of much of what is now Israel was captured in Wars started by surrounding countries in an effort to wipe out Israel. The lessons here are:

1. If you don' want to lose any more territory, don't attack Israel.
2. If you want peace don't attack Israel.

Simple enough...

ChaZZZy

:cool:

Therefore- both claims are absurd.The very simple fact is that two separate and fairly diverse nationalities now inhabit the area (both Palestinians and Israelis come in all creeds). Thus neither claim is any more absurd than your claim to your home and citizenship.

The problem is one nationality lives under brutal military occupation, stripped of all rights, self governance and means of justice or appeal. The other lives under a real or imagined threat that should the situation change, the country will go broke from overpopulation, exploding unemployment, not having free access to lands the lands and resources of the occupied peoples, and possibly the threat of war.

I don't normally advocate murder, but it strikes me the simplest solution would be to simply kill off every last nationalist in both groups, and create one nation with equal representation out of the remains. Of course, that will never happen.

Perhaps a more ideal solution would be to have the international community guarantee the security and sovereignty of both nationalities, adopt the two-state solution with the 'green line' borders, disarm both and insert a couple of million heavily armed assault forces with orders to turn any and everything that even looks funny, into so much slag. But of course, that will never happen either. Nevermind the IDF is fucking fierce, nobody wants to be guilty of killing a Jew, and pissing off the OPEC countries just isn't that tempting. And even if those weren't obstacles, nobody - 'cept possibly the ever war-hungry US - would want to commit that kind of resources, even if they could agree on how.

Why should I get over it, how about the natives of the land


The original stretch of land was barely inhabited and was not an independent nation state. It wasn't just Muslims that lived there originally, many Jews had already lived there along with other religious types.

The original stretch of land was barely inhabited and was not an independent nation state. It wasn't just Muslims that lived there originally, many Jews had already lived there along with other religious types.


"barely inhabited" my ass. If it was "barely inhabited" 400,000 Arabs wouldn't have fled. Palestinians had been referring to themselves as a nation since 1911 and asked for statehood in 1923 or so. If you're going to comment, at least know what you're commenting on.

When it all comes down to it, this is why I have a problem with what's going on with Israel (see video bellow) and also it disturbs me that we give more aid to this government (why Israel has the most advanced weapons) than to Africa

Palestinian child message to the world
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLJzCNPm0qQ&mode=related&search=

"barely inhabited" my ass. If it was "barely inhabited" 400,000 Arabs wouldn't have fled. Palestinians had been referring to themselves as a nation since 1911 and asked for statehood in 1923 or so. If you're going to comment, at least know what you're commenting on.

You should follow your own advice.
A newspaper came out in 1911 that called his readers "Palestinians". That's a long way from calling yourself a nation.
Actually, the Palestinians identified themselves with Jordan and Syria. They didn't really care about who ruled over them. (Turks and British.)
The thing that got them ticked was the Balfour Declaration. Then they suddenly decided (After years of selling lands to the Jews) that this is their homeland. They didn't ask for statehood in 1922 but declined an offer to be included in a Mandatorial Legislative commitee (because of the Balfour declaration). The only thing close to asking for statehood they ever did was try and get back on the Legislative commitee- Under British rule.

Added a poll, don't forget to vote :p

How many of you actually know what Zionism is? Zionism is the idea that the Jews, after nearly 2000 years of persecution culminating in the Holocaust, have a right to a homeland where they will always be welcome (as opposed to being turned away at the docks, as was the case with many Jewish refugees during the Holocaust).

For more information, visit the following Website...
http://www.adl.org/main_Israel/default.htm

You should follow your own advice.
A newspaper came out in 1911 that called his readers "Palestinians". That's a long way from calling yourself a nation.
Actually, the Palestinians identified themselves with Jordan and Syria. They didn't really care about who ruled over them. (Turks and British.)
The thing that got them ticked was the Balfour Declaration. Then they suddenly decided (After years of selling lands to the Jews) that this is their homeland. They didn't ask for statehood in 1922 but declined an offer to be included in a Mandatorial Legislative commitee (because of the Balfour declaration). The only thing close to asking for statehood they ever did was try and get back on the Legislative commitee- Under British rule.

Years of selling land that only amounted to a total of 8-9% of total area by 1947?

.Palestinians referring to themselves as an entity/people rather undermines the idea that there is no such thing a Palestinian identity, does it not?



They didn't ask for statehood in 1922 but declined an offer to be included in a Mandatorial Legislative commitee (because of the Balfour declaration). The only thing close to asking for statehood they ever did was try and get back on the Legislative commitee- Under British rule.

In 1922, the British authorities over Mandate Palestine proposed a draft constitution which would have granted the Palestinian Arabs representation in a Legislative Council. The Palestine Arab delegation rejected the proposal as "wholly unsatisfactory," noting that "the People of Palestine" could not accept the inclusion of the Balfour Declaration in the constitution's preamble, as the basis for discussions, and further taking issue with the designation of Palestine as a British "colony of the lowest order."[17]

Thats decling for a bit more than the Balfour declaration.....

<Snip>Hush now, you make it sound as if Israel's only legitimate claim to statehood in the region is the 7 million citizens. Hell, you're almost making it sound as if 6.5 of those nicked everything, including the nailed down shit & kitchen sinks. And perhaps even that Palestinians are actual humans, and not just dumb animals who unfortunately can't be put down outright, but has to be displaced slowly to appease policy makers and media in the western world.

How anti-Semitic of you :gundge:

Yes, fiend, that was sarcasm.

Years of selling land that only amounted to a total of 8-9% of total area by 1947?

.Palestinians referring to themselves as an entity/people rather undermines the idea that there is no such thing a Palestinian identity, does it not?



I fear I don't see the relevance of the amount of land sold to the argument. Even if 50% of the land was bought, it doesn't make a change for either side's relevance to the rightful claim of Israel\palestine\whatever.

Let me propose a question, which still bugs many people in my line of work.
If there wasn't an Israel, would there be a Palestine?
Let's suppose that the Jewish home is today in Zaire, or South Dakota for that matter.
Would there be a Palestine, or would there simply be a bigger Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt?

Actually, the Palestinians identified themselves with Jordan and Syria. They didn't really care about who ruled over them. (Turks and British.)


And before that the Islamic empire and before that the romans. And before that... oh wait thats when the romans renamed it palestine.

I fear I don't see the relevance of the amount of land sold to the argument. Even if 50% of the land was bought, it doesn't make a change for either side's relevance to the rightful claim of Israel\palestine\whatever.

Let me propose a question, which still bugs many people in my line of work.
If there wasn't an Israel, would there be a Palestine?
Let's suppose that the Jewish home is today in Zaire, or South Dakota for that matter.
Would there be a Palestine, or would there simply be a bigger Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt?

Or would there just be one big war with everyone scrambling to take a piece out of it. essentially the palestinian cause is supported by Places such as Syria not out of some pity for the poor palestineans but out of land greed. Or in the case of the extremists out of religious piety gone terribly wrong.

The only thing I can not support amongst the Israelis is the treatment of Palestinineans as second class citizens. But if the U.S. were to drop support of Israel it would probably mean that the palestineans would be in worse condition.

The other problem I have is the idea of essentially overthrowing the Israeli government and giving it to the palestinineans. They have already managed to elect a group of terrorists who want to kill jews, why wouldn't they do that if they got into power in Israel?

Hush now, you make it sound as if Israel's only legitimate claim to statehood in the region is the 7 million citizens. Hell, you're almost making it sound as if 6.5 of those nicked everything, including the nailed down shit & kitchen sinks. And perhaps even that Palestinians are actual humans, and not just dumb animals who unfortunately can't be put down outright, but has to be displaced slowly to appease policy makers and media in the western world.

How anti-Semitic of you :gundge:

Yes, fiend, that was sarcasm.

So essentially that means that ISrael as a state should be collapsed, given to the palestineans, that the jews that live there have no claim to the land they've called home for at least more than 50 years now. Don't give me that arguement that the palestinean claim is longer because up until the twentieth century they did NOT differentiate themselves as palestineans and obviously the jewish claim goes back just a little bit farther even if they did.

Frankly, I couldn't care less whether Israel 'should' or 'should not' be there. It is. We need to deal with the situation as it is now. People are still dying needlessly.

Why do they have to fight all the time down there? Can´t they just get along?

It sure would be much more relaxing beeing in a state of peace rather then a state of war. Right?

Frankly, I couldn't care less whether Israel 'should' or 'should not' be there. It is. We need to deal with the situation as it is now. People are still dying needlessly.

The best thing that the united states could do is to start leveraging pressure on them. Not pulling back support just yet because if we do Israel will be a lone nation leaving them with the possibility of making things worse for the Palestinineans

The other problem I have is the idea of essentially overthrowing the Israeli government and giving it to the palestinineans. They have already managed to elect a group of terrorists who want to kill jews, why wouldn't they do that if they got into power in Israel?

Well, you'd think that if they were treated like human with actual rights, they might not hate the Isrealis so much no?

The fact remains, if the Israelis truly wanted peace, they would stop building the West Bank colonies which are in violation of international treaties Israel has made not to build them, we all know all provocative it is to pull in the bulldozers and build Jewish colonies on Palestinian land, yet they continue to do it. For this reason it is obviously to all that the Israelis do not want peace, if they did they'd stop building.

But then again, all Israeli govts, no matter their moderation, are held hostage by the crazy messianic ultranationalists who choose to live in these settlements because they believe in a 'Greater Israel'.

But on the other hand, Zionism as an ideology has failed because it has been unable to create an independent Jewish state, what they have is a state totally dependent on US munitions and military subsidies in the billions to survive, without such aid the red, green, black and white would have flying over Jerusalem decades ago. Israel has become nothing but a pawn of the West.

Israel has become nothing but a pawn of the West.

lol I agree. The conspiracy theorists say the Jews run everything but I'm convinced it's Christians, right wing Protestant Christians to be exact. But I won't get into that :D

WASPOP (WHITE ANGLO SAXON PROTOSTANT OCCUPATIONAL GOVERNMENT)

It doesn't bother me that much since I'm white Anglo Saxon at least :p

Wouldn't it been so much easier if the Germans just had two more years in control of Europe?

Missed opportunities, right guys?

Wouldn't it been so much easier if the Germans just had two more years in control of Europe?

Missed opportunities, right guys?

*cough*

for the record I'm against genocide of all types

It's the evangelists that think all the non Christian Jews are going to hell once they all go to Israel and Jesus comes not me

edit: They just support it because they want a freaking world war to start! http://youtube.com/watch?v=mjMRgT5o-Ig

edit again: And they think the guy who strives for peace is the evil guy!!

Perhaps a little perspective from a historical point of view.

The Hebrew/Israeli's versus the Middle Eastern Nations.
It dates back more than 3000 years ago. Perhaps you all have heard of a man named Abraham? The father of Ishmael and Isaac. Ishmael and Isaac...the fathers of the Arab and Hebrew nations respectively. It was prophesied from the time Ishmael was a young boy that he would be the father of a warring nation. Is it any surprise that the Arabs today are consistently recognized as violent nations?

Secondly, for many more than 50 years that land has been Israeli land. It is merely a case of displaced inhabitants. Again I refer to the Bible (or any other historical document relating to that time period in fact.) more than 2000 years ago that land was in fact the nation of Israel and Judah. Why now is it suddenly uncouth for them to live in their homeland?

Furthermore, if you look back 50 years ago to the Yom Kippur war, you will see that there was no possible way that the Israeli's should have won. They were outnumbered in every way and yet in every instance they were triumphant. Anyone doing an in depth study on that war will realize that not only were there miraculous victories but it was a miracle in and of itself that the United States was able to help, considering OUR political turmoil at that time. Do y'all realize that military instructors won't even teach on the Yom Kippur war because the outcome was SO unpredictable? If this nation wasn't supposed to be there, don't you think it would have been defeated then and there?

Perhaps a little perspective from a historical point of view.

The Hebrew/Israeli's versus the Middle Eastern Nations.
It dates back more than 3000 years ago. Perhaps you all have heard of a man named Abraham? The father of Ishmael and Isaac. Ishmael and Isaac...the fathers of the Arab and Hebrew nations respectively. It was prophesied from the time Ishmael was a young boy that he would be the father of a warring nation. Is it any surprise that the Arabs today are consistently recognized as violent nations? ...
continues with more bs...

How can you make such a claim? Or are you simply trying to convince the world that you're an anti-semite?

If I was going to take up a religion I'll take the whole Rabbis' against Zionism idea over the "we must ship all the Jews to Israel and start a global world war" idea

Ok, so, I don't get it lemme put this in easy terms.

Isreal is sitting in their chair, all comfy cozy, living it up, right? Then the Germans come along, throw them from the chair, and beat the hell out of them. While this is going on, Palestine takes the chair and goes, "Pretty good..." They move in, take root, making if very hard and painful to leave. Isreal comes back from it's beating and says "Srsly gaiz? wtf is going on?" All the other nations look over at the Jews and go, "Owch, they need a place to stay." So they tell Palestine to scootch over. Of course, this is very painful and hard to do, but Palestine obliges. After a few hours of sitting in this uncomfortable position, Isreal just gets fed up and curses at the Jews and pokes at them. Isreal growls and turns it's back to Palestine, grumbling about "... Just go away already." Palestine riles up and pokes them again. Isreal about faces and socks Palestine square in the jaw, then spits in their faces. Now, Palestine won't take that, so they hit them back, but Isreal is a pretty big dude compared to Palestine, so Palestine eventually loses more and more ground on the chair, until they're scrunched up on the little space they have left, still trying to win. What I don't get, is that America's got this whole lavish couch over here, and they want Isreal to try and get back on the tiny, one-person chair with Palestine? Seriously? America must be laying down on the couch and too lazy to just tuck it's feet in to make room. I just say, that when the Jews were out of the concentration camps, every last one of them should have moved to America, and got a standard living packet to start with.
There wasn't that many of them anyway, seriously. Plus, all the other Zionist countries would chip in too.

Ok, so, I don't get it lemme put this in easy terms.

Isreal is sitting in their chair, all comfy cozy, living it up, right? Then the Germans come along, throw them from the chair, and beat the hell out of them. While this is going on, Palestine takes the chair and goes, "Pretty good..." They move in, take root, making if very hard and painful to leave. Isreal comes back from it's beating and says "Srsly gaiz? wtf is going on?" All the other nations look over at the Jews and go, "Owch, they need a place to stay." So they tell Palestine to scootch over. Of course, this is very painful and hard to do, but Palestine obliges. After a few hours of sitting in this uncomfortable position, Isreal just gets fed up and curses at the Jews and pokes at them. Isreal growls and turns it's back to Palestine, grumbling about "... Just go away already." Palestine riles up and pokes them again. Isreal about faces and socks Palestine square in the jaw, then spits in their faces. Now, Palestine won't take that, so they hit them back, but Isreal is a pretty big dude compared to Palestine, so Palestine eventually loses more and more ground on the chair, until they're scrunched up on the little space they have left, still trying to win. What I don't get, is that America's got this whole lavish couch over here, and they want Isreal to try and get back on the tiny, one-person chair with Palestine? Seriously? America must be laying down on the couch and too lazy to just tuck it's feet in to make room. I just say, that when the Jews were out of the concentration camps, every last one of them should have moved to America, and got a standard living packet to start with.
There wasn't that many of them anyway, seriously. Plus, all the other Zionist countries would chip in too.

Please do a little historical research into the matter. The Palestinians had their own country, but wanted everything that was Israel's as well. Multiple countries decided to invade Israel within days after they became an independant state and ANHILATE Israel from the face of the map. If it was'nt for the greediness and hatred of the Palestinians toward Israel, and all Israels Arab neighbors towards Israel, the Palestinians would still have an Independant state today. Instead they consistently have lost every single war fought with Israel, and the land that Israel won in their victories.

ChaZZZy

:cool:

To Topic Creator;
Nekama on LGF can rebut ya;
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=7856#c0019

So essentially that means that ISrael as a state should be collapsed, given to the palestineans, that the jews that live there have no claim to the land they've called home for at least more than 50 years now. Don't give me that arguement that the palestinean claim is longer because up until the twentieth century they did NOT differentiate themselves as palestineans and obviously the jewish claim goes back just a little bit farther even if they did.So essentially you're making shit up to dodge the issue. Yes, I too can put words in people's mouthes. I've explicitly said the continued existence of Israel is absolutely necessary. The occupation, however, is not. It must end. And ending it does not mean Israel maintaining military control movement, growth, borders, resources, infrastructure or anything else in the occupied territories. Just like it doesn't mean kicking every last Israeli citizen into the ocean.

I don't give two shits if either side's make-believe friend in the sky says they're the master race, are owed a Mercedes, or have the right to kill and displace an entire peoples. Neither do.

Would there be a Palestine, or would there simply be a bigger Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt?


Pointless to get into speculation of that sort. I'd imagine there would be, but who an say?

Wouldn't it been so much easier if the Germans just had two more years in control of Europe?

Missed opportunities, right guys??

Theres a bridge that needs your attention somewhere.

Perhaps a little perspective from a historical point of view.

The Hebrew/Israeli's versus the Middle Eastern Nations.
It dates back more than 3000 years ago. Perhaps you all have heard of a man named Abraham???

Historical point of view =/= Bible nonsense, O one post wonder.


The Palestinians had their own country, but wanted everything that was Israel's as well. (snip) victories.

A vast oversimplification.

So essentially you're making shit up to dodge the issue. Yes, I too can put words in people's mouthes. I've explicitly said the continued existence of Israel is absolutely necessary. The occupation, however, is not. It must end. And ending it does not mean Israel maintaining military control movement, growth, borders, resources, infrastructure or anything else in the occupied territories. Just like it doesn't mean kicking every last Israeli citizen into the ocean.

I don't give two shits if either side's make-believe friend in the sky says they're the master race, are owed a Mercedes, or have the right to kill and displace an entire peoples. Neither do.


QFT

Please do a little historical research into the matter. The Palestinians had their own country, but wanted everything that was Israel's as well. Multiple countries decided to invade Israel within days after they became an independant state and ANHILATE Israel from the face of the map. If it was'nt for the greediness and hatred of the Palestinians toward Israel, and all Israels Arab neighbors towards Israel, the Palestinians would still have an Independant state today. Instead they consistently have lost every single war fought with Israel, and the land that Israel won in their victories.

This is not true.

-Palestinians didnt want everything Israel had because there was no Israel until 1948. The Palestinians were thrown of their lands. And technically the Palestinians didnt have their own country, as it was a British protectorate area.

-The Palestinians wouldnt have their own state because 75% of their lands were taken, and neighbour countries like Jordania Syria and Egypt were of course not prepared to give up areas.

- Of course Palestinians and Israels neighbour countries lost the wars. Israel gets free U.S weapon supplies. So of course there is Palestinian hatred.

Please do a little historical research into the matter. The Palestinians had their own country, but wanted everything that was Israel's as well. Multiple countries decided to invade Israel within days after they became an independant state and ANHILATE Israel from the face of the map. If it was'nt for the greediness and hatred of the Palestinians toward Israel, and all Israels Arab neighbors towards Israel, the Palestinians would still have an Independant state today. Instead they consistently have lost every single war fought with Israel, and the land that Israel won in their victories.

ChaZZZy

:cool:

But this is my other point now. When the jews were battered and broken after the war, why go back to Isreal? Why try and sit back on the tiny chair that was stolen from them then? There'd essencially be no war over there right now. But no, they wanted that seat back. There's no denying it was taken wrongfully, but seriously? There's an old nation that's dirty, hot, and cramped, and there's a whole new place that's four times as good. Emotion always wins over logic, though.

Well, you'd think that if they were treated like human with actual rights, they might not hate the Isrealis so much no?
They hated the Israelis before that actually, they were given their own country and didn't want to leave all of Israel to the jews.
lol I agree. The conspiracy theorists say the Jews run everything but I'm convinced it's Christians, right wing Protestant Christians to be exact. But I won't get into that :D

WASPOP (WHITE ANGLO SAXON PROTOSTANT OCCUPATIONAL GOVERNMENT)

It doesn't bother me that much since I'm white Anglo Saxon at least :p
Well At least we're on topic, Might as well go into the Illuminati conspiracy theories then...
This is not true.

-Palestinians didnt want everything Israel had because there was no Israel until 1948. The Palestinians were thrown of their lands. And technically the Palestinians didnt have their own country, as it was a British protectorate area.

-The Palestinians wouldnt have their own state because 75% of their lands were taken, and neighbour countries like Jordania Syria and Egypt were of course not prepared to give up areas.

- Of course Palestinians and Israels neighbour countries lost the wars. Israel gets free U.S weapon supplies. So of course there is Palestinian hatred.

There really was no palestine to begin with actually. Originally Israel was named palestine by the Romans because a Roman Emperor in order to piss off and humiliate the jews for revolting, they named it palestine because that was the jews greatest enemy. After that, Palestine fell under Arabic control and thats when the ancestors of todays palestinineans moved in. Then it fell under turkish control, and then eventually under British control. Until the twentieth century there were no people that truly identified themselves as Palestinineans. By the way the reason Israel got those weapons in the first place was because the other countries were invading, they nearly lost those wars and without U.S. aid there would be millions of Israelis slaughtered today.

But this is my other point now. When the jews were battered and broken after the war, why go back to Isreal? Why try and sit back on the tiny chair that was stolen from them then? There'd essencially be no war over there right now. But no, they wanted that seat back. There's no denying it was taken wrongfully, but seriously? There's an old nation that's dirty, hot, and cramped, and there's a whole new place that's four times as good. Emotion always wins over logic, though.

Obviously transferring millions of people from a country is an easy task right? Unless they were able to evacuate every last jewish person out of Israel there would be an unheard of slaughter of people.

This is not true.


-The Palestinians wouldnt have their own state because 75% of their lands were taken, and neighbour countries like Jordania Syria and Egypt were of course not prepared to give up areas.


Or they just wanted a piece of the action in gaining land. As previously stated if Israel were not here there probably wouldn't have been a Palestine today, it would have been taken over by the surrounding countries.

So essentially you're making shit up to dodge the issue. Yes, I too can put words in people's mouthes. I've explicitly said the continued existence of Israel is absolutely necessary. The occupation, however, is not. It must end. And ending it does not mean Israel maintaining military control movement, growth, borders, resources, infrastructure or anything else in the occupied territories. Just like it doesn't mean kicking every last Israeli citizen into the ocean.

I don't give two shits if either side's make-believe friend in the sky says they're the master race, are owed a Mercedes, or have the right to kill and displace an entire peoples. Neither do.

Well how about we let vast numbers of jew hating terroists over the border huh? I mean they've already elected a government that has promised death to Israel and the destruction of the state as a whole. And whose to say they want go after civilian targest to? They've done it in the past.

I'm getting tired of the handwringing, Holocaust reminders and anti-semitism boo hoo every time someone says something to Israel about their bad behavior.

Israel's victem behavior was cute for the first 50 years, now it's getting old.

Pointless to get into speculation of that sort. I'd imagine there would be, but who an say?


Theres a bridge that needs your attention somewhere.


Historical point of view =/= Bible nonsense, O one post wonder.



A vast oversimplification.
QFT
Can you back your first statement up with some sort of evidence?
Theres a sinking ship that needs your attention.
While many things in the bible are questionable, what is not is that there was a jewish state some 3000 years ago.
OVer simplification my ass. They wanted all of Israel and were willing to kill to get it back.

Mercure;13000308']I'm getting tired of the handwringing, Holocaust reminders and anti-semitism boo hoo every time someone says something to Israel about their bad behavior.

Israel's victem behavior was cute for the first 50 years, now it's getting old.

And palestininean loving peace making behavior is getting rather obnoxious as well.

This is not true.

-Palestinians didnt want everything Israel had because there was no Israel until 1948. The Palestinians were thrown of their lands. And technically the Palestinians didnt have their own country, as it was a British protectorate area.


Actually with the formation of Israel a palestininean country was created however, it decided to go to war against Israel for possesing its lands and lost.

Well how about we let vast numbers of jew hating terroists over the border huh?I didn't say Israel couldn't or shouldn't control it's own border. I mean they've already elected a government that has promised death to Israel and the destruction of the state as a whole. And whose to say they want go after civilian targest to? They've done it in the past.I would have thought that you of all people would be perfectly fine with a policy of ethnic cleansing. It is, after all, nothing more than feeble attempt to respond in kind to 50 years of Israeli policy.

Don't try to pretend either party has some sort of moral high ground. It's a fucking vicious lie to do so.

I didn't say Israel couldn't or shouldn't control it's own border. I would have thought that you of all people would be perfectly fine with a policy of ethnic cleansing. It is, after all, nothing more than feeble attempt to respond in kind to 50 years of Israeli policy.

Don't try to pretend either party has some sort of moral high ground. It's a fucking vicious lie to do so.

ethnic cleansing? discrimination maybe but that is quite an extreme difference. Israeli's justify this policy by the extreme nature Palestinineans took towards Israelis. They hated them before the discrimination began when Israel was first formed, while this is semi-justified by the taking of their homeland, it nonetheless is a fairly accurate way to justify Israei policy. They won't stop until every piece of land is handed back to the Palestinineans. While I don't not agree with this form of discrimination, I can nonetheless see where the Israelis are coming from. [insert American policy joke here]

ethnic cleansing? discrimination maybe but that is quite an extreme difference.You're right, there's an extreme difference between organised discrimination and ethnic cleansing. Denmark is a pretty good example of the former these days, having introduced discriminatory policies against immigrants in general, and ethnic non-1st worlders in particular.
Israel, on the other hand, actively displaces the peoples under their military occupation, and though it's debatable, I don't think it's unfair to say they execute as many of those peoples as they can get away with, without suffering repercussions from the international community. And the country has always done so. Calling it something other than ethnic cleansing is disingenuous.Israeli's justify this policy by the extreme nature Palestinineans took towards Israelis.And Palestinians justify their actions by reciting the atrocities committed against them by the state of Israel. And on and on it goes. Thing is, Israel is in a position to stop the cycle. The Palestinian peoples, on the other hand, are limited to choosing between lying down and taking it, or trying to resist as best they can. They are the occupied party, not Israel.They hated them before the discrimination began when Israel was first formed, while this is semi-justified by the taking of their homeland, it nonetheless is a fairly accurate way to justify Israei policy.Nice spin. The hatred wasn't there until shortly before the Zionists accepted the plans for Israel. There was a thousand year history of peaceful coexistence between Jews and the other peoples of the area until Zionists started terrorist activity in the region and managed to all but disenfranchise the other peoples of the area in the negotiations for local sovereignty.

Regardless, the "but 'e started it Mum, cross me 'eart!" is a fucking waste of time. Palestinians are getting creamed under a horrendously brutal military occupation, which, so far, several thousand civilian Israelis have had to pay for with their lives. It is fucking mad, and it has to end. Now.They won't stop until every piece of land is handed back to the Palestinineans.If you have any reliable opinion polls to that effect, I should like to see them. Either way, it's clearly a pipe dream. There is no way the Palestinian peoples can pose a threat to Israeli sovereignty. So.. Fucked up as it is, it simply doesn't matter.While I don't not agree with this form of discrimination, I can nonetheless see where the Israelis are coming from. [insert American policy joke here]... I don't even know how to respond to that.

Israel, on the other hand, actively displaces the peoples under their military occupation, and though it's debatable, I don't think it's unfair to say they execute as many of those peoples as they can get away with, without suffering repercussions from the international community. And the country has always done so. Calling it something other than ethnic cleansing is disingenuous.

Regardless, the "but 'e started it Mum, cross me 'eart!" is a fucking waste of time. If you have any reliable opinion polls to that effect, I should like to see them. Either way, it's clearly a pipe dream. There is no way the Palestinian peoples can pose a threat to Israeli sovereignty. So.. Fucked up as it is, it simply doesn't matter.... I don't even know how to respond to that.

Active displacement is also a debatable subject. Example: israel has been compared to the apartheid government in South Africa. While I consider this an extreme comparison to put it bluntly but there are things to a similar effect going on in Israel. Apartheid is usually not considered a genocide rather just an extreme form of discrimination. i agree about the fucking waste of time, Israel needs to reform things about itself, especially its treatment of the Palestinineans. As to the opinion polls, not neccessary, look at the government they elected. I understand that the palestinineans probably cannot pose a problem, however the terrorist organizations operating in their country can. This is the view of the Israeli people, they are truly afraid for their own lives which is why they started these terrible policies in the first place. I think that the United States should put pressure on Israel to reform but not withdraw its support for it because right now I believe that is the only thing keeping Israel from resorting to more extreme policies.

Active displacement is also a debatable subject. Example: israel has been compared to the apartheid government in South Africa.Not the same thing, and no, it's not debatable. Israel actively displace portions of the Palestinian population. I guess you can debate whether or not Israel does this to as great an extent as it can get away with, without losing their US UNSC veto safetynet, but like the "But 'e started it" thing, I fail to see the point.While I consider this an extreme comparison to put it bluntly but there are things to a similar effect going on in Israel. Apartheid is usually not considered a genocide rather just an extreme form of discrimination.That internal Israeli practices aren't much different from institutionalised segregation, doesn't have anything to do with displacing - aka, cleansing desirable parts of the occupied territories of - the Palestinian peoples. I agree it's not quite accurate to accuse the state of Israel for having adopted apartheid policies. It's just not wholly inaccurate either. Jerusalem is a pretty good example, methinks. But again, it doesn't have any direct bearing on their military occupation of the Palestinian peoples and territories. i agree about the fucking waste of time, Israel needs to reform things about itself, especially its treatment of the Palestinineans.It needs to end the occupation now, and tear down that fucking wall, or move it in line with the green line. Then they can start bitching and moaning about how rotten the Palestinians are, but until then Israel is the party responsible for the mess.As to the opinion polls, not neccessary, look at the government they elected. That's a massively flawed postulate. The Palestinian peoples elected the party who promised to improve living conditions, do something about the massive levels of corruption, and try to fight back against an ultra violent regime that is actively and relentlessly destroying the peoples and stealing it's resources.

That at least a portion of that party also has a dream of one day doing unto Israel as Israel has done unto the Palestinian peoples and their land, doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the election result. Kind of like most US voters don't by definition agree with every last idea their preferred representative has. That's why I asked for reliable opinion polls.

Still, as we both agree, it doesn't really matter whether they want to bring an end to the existence of the state of Israel. It's not gonna happen, no matter how badly they want it.I understand that the palestinineans probably cannot pose a problem, however the terrorist organizations operating in their country can. This is the view of the Israeli people, they are truly afraid for their own lives which is why they started these terrible policies in the first place.The unfunny thing is, the research done on the motives of the Palestinian militants, and in particular, their mass-murdering suicide bombers, clearly indicates that almost every one of them are motivated from close personal abuses they and/or their families have suffered under the Israeli military occupation. I think that the United States should put pressure on Israel to reform but not withdraw its support for it because right now I believe that is the only thing keeping Israel from resorting to more extreme policies.I partially agree. I think the US should increasingly cut Israel off if they fail to engage the international community for a solution on how the occupation can be ended immediately. I also think the US should be prepared to invest massively in ending the occupation, as they have been and are the main 'enabler' of that occupation. But unfortunately I completely agree that simply cutting Israel off will likely result in them going from slow & methodical ethnic cleansing, to all-out genocide.

Can you back your first statement up with some sort of evidence?
Theres a sinking ship that needs your attention.

OVer simplification my ass. They wanted all of Israel and were willing to kill to get it back.

How can I back up an answer to a purely "what if" qwuestion with evidence?
Thats why ~I said speculation of that kind was pointless.


While many things in the bible are questionable, what is not is that there was a jewish state some 3000 years ago..

But whether or not it was 100% Jewish, or to the extent as described, is highly debatable - thus its bollocks, as far as finding a solution is concerned.


OVer simplification my ass. They wanted all of Israel and were willing to kill to get it back.

More like not wanting to give up any land to what they regarded as a bunch of foriegners to create an israeli state. The others were quite prepared to kill to take it, btw.

And whose to say they want go after civilian targest to? They've done it in the past..

As have their neighbours.

Israeli's justify this policy by the extreme nature Palestinineans took towards Israelis. ..

Yet its only become as extreme as it is since the occupation and settlements began....Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad etc all date after 1980....
Nothing justifies colonialism, or a state resembling apartheid.


ethnic cleansing? discrimination maybe but that is quite an extreme difference


You're unaware of the summary revocation of residency permits for Arabs living in Arab East Jerusalem? And do you not think that a 40 year long occupation with its checkpoints, beatings, torture and killings is designed to drive out the population?

By the way the reason Israel got those weapons in the first place was because the other countries were invading, they nearly lost those wars and without U.S. aid there would be millions of Israelis slaughtered today.

That US aid is a bit much I guess. Israel is capable of nuking all the middle east. They have battleships, nucleair weapons, tanks, jets, submarines, but whine about a few Palestines who want to fire a few plastic toy-qassam rockets. The Palestines are not even able to slaughter Israelis. They dont even have much weapons. Its just the massive PR-system implicating that a slaughter in Israel is likely to happen, and that system justifies Israel to have more and more weapons. Ever heard of Palestinians receiving $ 30 billion weapons aid in a few years time ? Israels economy is strong enough to produce and finance large amounts of weapons themselves, and they do so. U.S aid is just like nice presents which they dont really need anymore, but accept it.

And palestininean loving peace making behavior is getting rather obnoxious as well.

loving peace making behaviour ? The Palestinians cant even get to their hospitals due to roadblocks. Large walls are built. Israel is full member of the UN. The Palestinian authority is in the UN recognized as a Non-Governmental organization, without voting rights. Millions of Palestines are not even fully recognized by the UN ! Palestinians should have more support. Human Rights. A Palestine lobby would show the world whats really going on there.

Yes, thats the "brave little nation" tripe I mentioned earlier. You'll find that most people don't see appropriating land from farmers for apartment blocks for another states civillians as a defensive action. An offensive action perhaps, and in a number of interpretations of the word..

False. Since no Arabs ever protest Turkish occupation of traditionally Greek territories in Asia minor, we can conclude that the Arab view of appropriating land is a simple one- the winner keeps it. And this is not even a debate- even the Turks admit that the land is theirs soley by conquest. The status quo remains because Greeks are not as violent as Arabs- they don't think a permanent campaign of Terror to regain Constantinople, Smyrna, etc, is a good thing.

Also, in the post WWII environment, numerous civilian populations have been relocated, including hundreds of thousands of Jews expelled from Arab nations, (no reparations!), Russian occupation of the Kuriles, a piece of Finland, Romania, etc, German, Polish, and other Eastern European civilian resettlements, Pakistan and India- the former never compensating Hindu refugees for seized property, etc, etc. In only one case- the Arabs of Israel- has this spasm of mid-20th century population movements created a feeling of permanent entitlement to violence. Even in the Balkans, there is no longer a sense of permanent warfare. (well, generally, some nuts remain.) Only Israel remains apart, due to Arab racism. Or does anyone here think that Japan has a right to murder Russians to "Free the Kuriles"? (And the Kuriles are larger than Israel!) How about the Mohawks? Do they get to murder Canadians and Americans? Who do the Kurds get to kill? Armenians? Oh, how about the Ainu- should they start blowing up Japanese busses?

Every nation other than Iceland and a few Pacific states exists on land once held by someone else. It is time for Arabs to grow up and realize that once, they were the conquerors and their "rights" to Israel are no more than rights of conquest. Displaced Arabs should be compensated fully- with land and property seized from displaced Jews- and the fighting should end immediately, so that both Arabs and Israelis can benefit from cooperation.

Here is the real paradox: Even if the Arabs accepted just half the West Bank, that, and a generation of peace with Israel would give them far better lives than another generation of war. Israeli wealth and technology could pump a lot of resources into the region if the Israelis weren't afraid of being murdered. So, everytime an Arab says something like "resistance is justified", he is really saying "It's Ok for my children and grand children to grow up into lives of war, poverty, and misery, because my own hatred and lust for vengeance comes first."

Another paradox: When Israel invaded the west bank, it was part of Jordan (by conquest, of course, the traditional recognized Arab method of obtaining land.) No one ever protested Jordanian occupation of the West Bank, so we can assume that in Arab eyes, the Jordanian conquest was legitimate. The ONLY nation that has a rightful cause against Israeli occupation is therefore Jordan, and they are at peace with Israel. Therefore, there is no right to resistance in the West Bank. Same goes for Gaza- Egypt had it.

It would be like the Japanese supporting "Kurilian resistance" while claiming they are at peace with Russia!

How can I back up an answer to a purely "what if" qwuestion with evidence?
Thats why ~I said speculation of that kind was pointless.



But whether or not it was 100% Jewish, or to the extent as described, is highly debatable - thus its bollocks, as far as finding a solution is concerned.



More like not wanting to give up any land to what they regarded as a bunch of foriegners to create an israeli state. The others were quite prepared to kill to take it, btw.As have their neighbours.
Yet its only become as extreme as it is since the occupation and settlements began....Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad etc all date after 1980....
Nothing justifies colonialism, or a state resembling apartheid.



Speculation is almost never pointless, I've provided as to why I think Palestine would not exist ie: greedy neighbors now I'd like to hear why you believe Palestine wouldn't be destroyed, unless of course you don't have any reason other than blind optimism.
Whether or not Israel was 100% jewish matters not, it was a jewish state under the control of the Israelis, this is not debatable though it truly does not matter on the solution end at least.
Not every Israeli was a foreigner, there were still a considerable number of jews living there due to the fact that the arab governments were very nice to them.
The fact that the Palestinineans attacked as soon as the Israeli state was formed, this was without the whole apartheid thing mind you, is evidence enough to the Israelis at least to warrant the taking over of that country and the monitoring of its people thus both peoples are at the short end of the figurative tolerance stick.

Speculation is almost never pointless, I've provided as to why I think Palestine would not exist ie: greedy neighbors now I'd like to hear why you believe Palestine wouldn't be destroyed, unless of course you don't have any reason other than blind optimism.
Whether or not Israel was 100% jewish matters not, it was a jewish state under the control of the Israelis, this is not debatable though it truly does not matter on the solution end at least.
Not every Israeli was a foreigner, there were still a considerable number of jews living there due to the fact that the arab governments were very nice to them.
The fact that the Palestinineans attacked as soon as the Israeli state was formed, this was without the whole apartheid thing mind you, is evidence enough to the Israelis at least to warrant the taking over of that country and the monitoring of its people thus both peoples are at the short end of the figurative tolerance stick.

Have you read your history? Israel was created from Palestine land. We can thank some British guy for that...*I forget the thing but some British guy took the land and gave it to make Israel without Palestines consent*

That US aid is a bit much I guess. Israel is capable of nuking all the middle east. They have battleships, nucleair weapons, tanks, jets, submarines, but whine about a few Palestines who want to fire a few plastic toy-qassam rockets. The Palestines are not even able to slaughter Israelis. They dont even have much weapons. Its just the massive PR-system implicating that a slaughter in Israel is likely to happen, and that system justifies Israel to have more and more weapons. Ever heard of Palestinians receiving $ 30 billion weapons aid in a few years time ? Israels economy is strong enough to produce and finance large amounts of weapons themselves, and they do so. U.S aid is just like nice presents which they dont really need anymore, but accept it.



loving peace making behaviour ? The Palestinians cant even get to their hospitals due to roadblocks. Large walls are built. Israel is full member of the UN. The Palestinian authority is in the UN recognized as a Non-Governmental organization, without voting rights. Millions of Palestines are not even fully recognized by the UN ! Palestinians should have more support. Human Rights. A Palestine lobby would show the world whats really going on there.
Firstly it is not just the Palestinineans that the Israelis worry about, at least 5 of their neighbors have invaded them in the past 30 years. The nuclear weapons is a bit much but the U.S. didn't give them the nukes, they stole them. The Palestinineans are quite able to slaughter innocent Israeli citizens or have you never heard of the term 'suicide bombing'. The U.S. aid is not just for the fiscal reason as I've stated before, if we refuse to support Israel things are going to look a lot nastier for the Palestinineans. I actually agree with similization on this one, slow rebuffments towards Israel will do nicely in order to help the Palestinineans but an all out withdrawl of support means we've got a rogue nation on our hands. Sadly I don't think these rebuffments will come during this administration because of the need of support for the war on Terror. Congress could drive through a veto but I think they have other things to be concerned with.
Neither the Palestinineans nor the Israelis have a good track record, they've both done and tried to do some pretty horrible things to each other but the fact that your ignoring the Israeli interest in this situation is rather deppressing.

Have you read your history? Israel was created from Palestine land. We can thank some British guy for that...*I forget the thing but some British guy took the land and gave it to make Israel without Palestines consent*

Perhaps you should read your history because I was referring to the jewish state 3000 years ago. We've already gone over this and I don't like going in a circle, either read the past posts or get out of the discussion.

That internal Israeli practices aren't much different from institutionalised segregation, doesn't have anything to do with displacing - aka, cleansing desirable parts of the occupied territories of - the Palestinian peoples.

I hate to tell you but thats exactly what the Apartheid government did, it forced blacks into certain areas and restricted them from leaving other ones. Nonetheless still quite barbaric.

You're unaware of the summary revocation of residency permits for Arabs living in Arab East Jerusalem? And do you not think that a 40 year long occupation with its checkpoints, beatings, torture and killings is designed to drive out the population?

Again Apartheid did the same thing, it wasn't considered genocide. Still extremely cruel and barbaric.

That's a massively flawed postulate. The Palestinian peoples elected the party who promised to improve living conditions, do something about the massive levels of corruption, and try to fight back against an ultra violent regime that is actively and relentlessly destroying the peoples and stealing it's resources.




A country is judged by whom its leaders are, this unfortunately applies to teh U.S. as well. :rolleyes:

Who do you think you are? Naa, I'm good. I don't think I wanna get out, if that's fine with you....;)

The Israelis can defend their nation but when they go on the offense, it is failure... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War)

A country is judged by whom its leaders are, this unfortunately applies to teh U.S. as well. :rolleyes:

OOC: d00d...Cinqruple post! Use the edit button

EDIT: No! We have a great military. our military is not judged by our president...>.>

Speculation is almost never pointless, .

....except when answering a loaded question on alternative history....



The fact that the Palestinineans attacked as soon as the Israeli state was formed, this was without the whole apartheid thing mind you, is evidence enough to the Israelis at least to warrant the taking over of that country and the monitoring of its people thus both peoples are at the short end of the figurative tolerance stick.

So, for example, the Japanese can have their own state, and the others who lost in WWII, but the Palestinians can't?


Again Apartheid did the same thing, it wasn't considered genocide. Still extremely cruel and barbaric..

And where o where did I say it was genocide?


but the fact that your ignoring the Israeli interest in this situation is rather deppressing..

The Israelis are entitled to defend themselves and their pre-1967 borders. Anything else is a land grab.

Who do you think you are? Naa, I'm good. I don't think I wanna get out, if that's fine with you....;)

The Israelis can defend their nation but when they go on the offense, it is failure... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War)

ok stay just please try and keep the discussion moving forward, we've already circled around the topic of the formation of Israel at least five different times all on seperate occasions.

ok stay just please try and keep the discussion moving forward, we've already circled around the topic of the formation of Israel at least five different times all on seperate occasions.

Many sources claim that Israel lost the 2006 Lebanon War...


They cite the facts that Hezbollah was able to sustain defenses on Lebanese soil and inflict unmitigated rocket attacks on Israeli civilians in the face of a punishing air and land campaign by the IDF
Also, Israel's stated goals entering the conflict were to retrieve its two seized soldiers and destroy the military capability of Hezbollah - neither goal was accomplished
Hezbollah is leading the rebuilding effort in south Beirut and Lebanon using "unlimited" support from Iran, thereby awarding Hezbollah further political clout
Israeli Prime Minister Olmert admitted to the Knesset that there were mistakes in the war in Lebanon
On 22 September, some eight hundred thousand Hezbollah supporters gathered in Beirut for a victory rally. Nasrallah said that Hezbollah should celebrate the "divine and strategic victory."

[QUOTE=Nodinia;13001301]
You're unaware of the summary revocation of residency permits for Arabs living in Arab East Jerusalem? And do you not think that a 40 year long occupation with its checkpoints, beatings, torture and killings is designed to drive out the population?
Right here were you tried to refute my claim that it wasn't.

So, for example, the Japanese can have their own state, and the others who lost in WWII, but the Palestinians can't?





I ask you did the japanese still have tons of active resistance immediately after WWII?

I ask you did the japanese still have tons of active resistance immediately after WWII?

Many Japanese soldiers didn't know that the war was over so they were still on many various Pacific Islands. Others ignored the surrender and actually fought back. A couple of Japanese soldiers were found int he 1970's, I think even a little later too.... I call that resistance.

Right here were you tried to refute my claim that it wasn't.


Well, if you bothered your arse to read the quote I was replying to, it was
ethnic cleansing? discrimination maybe but that is quite an extreme difference.

from this post here. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13000405&postcount=134)

Many sources claim that Israel lost the 2006 Lebanon War...


They cite the facts that Hezbollah was able to sustain defenses on Lebanese soil and inflict unmitigated rocket attacks on Israeli civilians in the face of a punishing air and land campaign by the IDF
Also, Israel's stated goals entering the conflict were to retrieve its two seized soldiers and destroy the military capability of Hezbollah - neither goal was accomplished
Hezbollah is leading the rebuilding effort in south Beirut and Lebanon using "unlimited" support from Iran, thereby awarding Hezbollah further political clout
Israeli Prime Minister Olmert admitted to the Knesset that there were mistakes in the war in Lebanon
On 22 September, some eight hundred thousand Hezbollah supporters gathered in Beirut for a victory rally. Nasrallah said that Hezbollah should celebrate the "divine and strategic victory."


cool, moving the topic forward but apparently in completely random way.

cool, moving the topic forward but apparently in completely random way.

I was discussing how Israel can defend, but when they move on to the attack, they phail utterly...

Eariler you said that the country is based off of it's leaders. Well Prime Minister Olmert even agreed that the campaign was phail! XD

Many Japanese soldiers didn't know that the war was over so they were still on many various Pacific Islands. Others ignored the surrender and actually fought back. A couple of Japanese soldiers were found int he 1970's, I think even a little later too.... I call that resistance.

in the country itself was there resistance?

in the country itself was there resistance?

Yes.

I was discussing how Israel can defend, but when they move on to the attack, they phail utterly...

Eariler you said that the country is based off of it's leaders. Well Prime Minister Olmert even agreed that the campaign was phail! XD

*sighs* I've already said that both countries suck so I really don't understand the point your trying to make here.

Yes.

Source? Cause I'm quite sure that there was no active resistance in the country itself after the formal surrender of Japan.

Source? Cause I'm quite sure that there was no active resistance in the country itself after the formal surrender of Japan.

You. Got. Pwnt.


Following the signing of the instrument of surrender many further surrender ceremonies took place across Japan's remaining holdings in the Pacific. With many Japanese troops still fighting the Allied troops, often in remote areas, it took until early 1946 for all major units to actually lay down their arms. Some individuals, especially on small Pacific Islands, refused to surrender at all (believing the declaration to be propaganda or considering the act too much against their code). Some may never have heard of it. Hiroo Onoda, the last known survivor emerged from his hidden retreat in the Philippines in 1974, while two other Japanese soldiers, who had joined communist guerillas at the end of the war, fought in southern Thailand until 1991. [12]

Who told j00?!

*sighs* I've already said that both countries suck so I really don't understand the point your trying to make here.

What are you trying to say>

Well, if you bothered your arse to read the quote I was replying to, it was


from this post here. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13000405&postcount=134)

Genocide is basically the equivalent of ethnic cleansing and I thought you were referring to that.

You. Got. Pwnt.




Who told j00?!

Not Joo apparently, it says nothing on there about the japanese mainland. I understood that there were remaining japanese troops on remote isles but what about on the mainland itself? that was what I was questioning.

What are you trying to say>

That your post was random and really didn't support a side in the debate.

Not Joo apparently, it says nothing on there about the japanese mainland.

1) You do know that resistance don't have to be in the country they are trying to free. Idioctic yes, but true nonetheless.

2) It's j00 not J00. J00 looks like JOO and it's not JOO. :(

3) Russia declared war on Japan and attacked Munchuria which was part of Japan at the time. Japanese mainland?! We are not just talking the mainland of Japan. We have to also include the Japanese part of China, Korea, and Formosa.

That your post was random and really didn't support a side in the debate.

Yes it did. I contradicted you.

1) You do know that resistance don't have to be in the country they are trying to free. Idioctic yes, but true nonetheless.

2) It's j00 not J00. J00 looks like JOO and it's not JOO. :(

3) Russia declared war on Japan and attacked Munchuria which was part of Japan at the time. Japanese mainland?! We are not just talking the mainland of Japan. We have to also include the Japanese part of China, Korea, and Formosa.

Was or was there not active resistance from the government center of Japan, that is the mainland?

Yes it did. I contradicted you.

how so?

I ask you did the japanese still have tons of active resistance immediately after WWII?

As pointed out yes there was.

However, I still don't see how ethnic cleansing and planting civillian colonies outside its borders can be justified as "defence" if thats what you're getting at.

As pointed out yes there was.


Not on the mainland where there was a government and the majority of the japanese people. However even so, occupation of Japan was still neccessary if you remember your history. Obviously Israel has gone to far too extreme measures for security reasons but Palestine is right on Israel's border, that means that they had a group of defeated people that were willing to blow themselves up to kill Israelis right outside their border.

Not on the mainland where there was a government and the majority of the japanese people.

d00d. Read everything I wrote, I don't like to repeat myself.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/LocationMapJapan.png

That is Japan. You can't just say "Is there a rebellion on the mainland" beacuse Japan is a bunch of islands and the mainland. There were people rebelling on the islands...'nuff said.

Not on the mainland where there was a government and the majority of the japanese people. However even so, occupation of Japan was still neccessary if you remember your history. Obviously Israel has gone to far too extreme measures for security reasons but Palestine is right on Israel's border, that means that they had a group of defeated people that were willing to blow themselves up to kill Israelis right outside their border.

For the love of God, it is Palestinian land!!!

Not on the mainland where there was a government and the majority of the japanese people.

Acts of resistance nonethless. The resistance attacks against Israel were from outside its newly formed state in 1948 also. Mind you, I fail to see the relevance here, because the occupation didn't start until 1967. Strange thing, moving civillians into what you might think was being held as a "buffer zone". Strapping granny to the bumper of the car, as it were.

Not on the mainland where there was a government and the majority of the japanese people. However even so, occupation of Japan was still neccessary if you remember your history. Obviously Israel has gone to far too extreme measures for security reasons but Palestine is right on Israel's border, that means that they had a group of defeated people that were willing to blow themselves up to kill Israelis right outside their border.


But the "defeated people" only started the suicide bombings in the 1980s after over a decade of occupation and US vetos.....

Speculation is almost never pointless, I've provided as to why I think Palestine would not exist ie: greedy neighbors now I'd like to hear why you believe Palestine wouldn't be destroyed, unless of course you don't have any reason other than blind optimism.Do you mean Palestine would be annexed by a different nation if Israel ceased it's annexation of Palestine? If so, the answer is it wouldn't be worth it for any neighbouring nations to engage in all-out war with an Israel backed by the international community. Very simply, A Palestinian state could exist for the same reasons Israel does exist.The fact that the Palestinineans attacked as soon as the Israeli state was formed, this was without the whole apartheid thing mind you, is evidence enough to the Israelis at least to warrant the taking over of that country and the monitoring of its people thus both peoples are at the short end of the figurative tolerance stick.You have to remember the situation was completely different from today. The ME regimes made it perfectly clear that the deal for the British mandate wasn't acceptable. Unfortunately they were denied influence on the deal. In a nutshell, that's why the wars happened.Firstly it is not just the Palestinineans that the Israelis worry about, at least 5 of their neighbors have invaded them in the past 30 years.It's not relevant. Israel is more than capable of defending itself today.The nuclear weapons is a bit much but the U.S. didn't give them the nukes, they stole them.Speculation, and not relevant.The Palestinineans are quite able to slaughter innocent Israeli citizens or have you never heard of the term 'suicide bombing'.Which in no way signifies the Palestinian peoples are capable of posing a threat against Israel. To use an analogy: the good peoples of Monaco are more than capable of killing a few Americans. However, the notion that Monaco could somehow pose a threat to the US, is absurd.Sadly I don't think these rebuffments will come during this administration because of the need of support for the war on Terror. Congress could drive through a veto but I think they have other things to be concerned with.It's the problem in a nutshell. Nobody gives a shit about the occupation, and if it is to end, the international community will have to get involved. It doesn't have to be a slow process, but we - all of us - do need to get involved to guarantee it doesn't degenerate into mass slaughter, and to make sure infrastructure and resource distribution doesn't collapse entirely and cause mass death.Neither the Palestinineans nor the Israelis have a good track record, they've both done and tried to do some pretty horrible things to each other but the fact that your ignoring the Israeli interest in this situation is rather deppressing.Thing is, we have to ignore Israeli interests to end the occupation. Because Israel's interests are to continue the annexation of the occupied territories til they've gotten enough space to expand and have control over all resources.I hate to tell you but thats exactly what the Apartheid government did, it forced blacks into certain areas and restricted them from leaving other ones. Nonetheless still quite barbaric.Israel has anti-discrimination laws in place. Apartheid legislated the segregation. Israel does the opposite; legislate against it, but continue comparable actions in practise. But let me stress again; do not equate segregationist practises with what's happening in the occupied territories. There's no grounds for comparison. The segregationist practices is an internal problem. The continued displacement of.. What is it these days? 2 million people or something? Seizing of resources, isolation of communities, seizing of infrastructure, and so on and so on, is far, far beyond segregationist practises. It is the systematic destruction of a people's ability to exist on their own lands. Or to be more concise: it's ethnic cleansing.Again Apartheid did the same thing, it wasn't considered genocide. Still extremely cruel and barbaric.I don't think anyone's accusing Israel of committing genocide, and AGAIN: Israeli policies on Israeli territory are IN NO WAY comparable to the policies enforced under the Israeli military occupation of the Palestinian territories.A country is judged by whom its leaders are, this unfortunately applies to teh U.S. as well. :rolleyes:Rubbish. Especially considering you were attempting to justify Israel's military occupation of an entire peoples based on the impossible dream of a few fanatics.Genocide is basically the equivalent of ethnic cleansing and I thought you were referring to that.Ethnic cleansing =/ genocide. Ethnic cleansing simply means to rid a specified area of one or more ethnic groups. Systematic slaughter needn't be part of it, and in the case of Israel, isn't to any great degree. Israel cannot with any honesty be said not to conduct ethnic cleansing of the occupied territories. Just like it cannot with any honesty be said to commit genocide on the Palestinian peoples.Obviously Israel has gone to far too extreme measures for security reasons but Palestine is right on Israel's border, that means that they had a group of defeated people that were willing to blow themselves up to kill Israelis right outside their border.That's absurd mate. Palestinians aren't and weren't occupied because they wish to end the existence of the state of Israel. They have never been capable of doing so. The desire to do so have never been all-prevailing. There's no threat against Israeli sovereignty from the Palestinian peoples (though there were in the past from other neighbouring - and still sovereign - countries). It's nothing more than the annexation of territory and resources, because it's advantageous for the state of Israel to do so. More room, more wealth. That's what it's about.

Next time you hear some IDF buys find explosives in an ambulance, ask yourself how. Did they actually stop an ambulance and tear it apart?! How often do they do things like that then? How many civilians do they kill by restricting even extreme emergency movement like that? And how come people are willing to throw their lives away just to kill a few pawns of those evil overlords?

The answer to the latter is known. It's been studied, studied and studied some fucking more. And those studies clearly indicate that attacks on the Israeli civilian population is motivated almost exclusively from a desire for vengeance, in persons who feel they've nothing left to live for, because the military occupation has destroyed their lives. In plain English: the terrorism continues because the military occupation is so fucking vicious it keeps turning ordinary people into terrorists. To say the occupation continues to prevent attacks on the Israeli civilian population is an expression of either extreme ignorance or extreme dishonesty.

Do you mean Palestine would be annexed by a different nation if Israel ceased it's annexation of Palestine? If so, the answer is it wouldn't be worth it for any neighbouring nations to engage in all-out war with an Israel backed by the international community. .

1)Study History. Israel won the 1947 war- meaning they kept the enemy from annexing land. The land that was given to the Palestinians by the UN was gobbled up by Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (The West Bank). Where is Palestine? Who took it by force? Israel?

2) Study history again. First and foremost- show me a Palestininan nation under a sovreign rule. The area known as Palestine (or Israel now) was always under conquest. For the bible freaks- even the Jews conquered it from the Cananites, the Hitiites and a whole slew of other nations.
But let's go on to more modern times. For the past 1500 years or so, the area was under conquest by Turks and Christians. The "Palestinians" who lived in the area were brought over by the Turks (who were Muslims) mostly from Jordan and other annexed nation in the middle east. So- the name Palestine doesn't refer to a nation, but to a piece of land. Like Kentucky, or Orange County, or Sussex.
In 1947 the UN affirmed the creation of two states: Israel and- for the very first time if I might add- A sovreign Palestine! Yay!

The answer to the latter is known. It's been studied, studied and studied some fucking more. And those studies clearly indicate that attacks on the Israeli civilian population is motivated almost exclusively from a desire for vengeance, in persons who feel they've nothing left to live for, because the military occupation has destroyed their lives. In plain English: the terrorism continues because the military occupation is so fucking vicious it keeps turning ordinary people into terrorists. ..

3) Study History for the third time. Between 1948-1967 Israel was constantly attacked by Fedayun, Palestinians who lived in Gaza and the West Bank backed and funded by Egypt and Jordan. We have now 19 years of no occupations, but of constant attacks by terrorists. The attacks centred mostly on buses and civilians in Israeli Border towns, and basically- anything Israeli. Sounds familiar?

In plain English: the terrorism continues because the military occupation is so fucking vicious it keeps turning ordinary people into terrorists. To say the occupation continues to prevent attacks on the Israeli civilian population is an expression of either extreme ignorance or extreme dishonesty.

4)Excuse me for being rude- and please take no offense- but: Crap.
The Gaza strip is no longer under occupation. The evacuation of the Gaza strip was accompanied in some places by heavy Palestinian gunfire. A day or two after the evacuation of Gaza was complete a barrage of Qasam rockets was launched on Israel. It hadn't stopped to this day. At first, Israel didn't retaliate. Rockets were still launched.
And just for the record- Israel began to dismantle settlements in the West Bank at the same time, but stopped because of the endless barrage of rockets from Gaza. Add to the above facts the pre-occupation terrorist attacks.

5) Consider this: The Hamas, who is currently the leading party in Gaza, wishes to return to the 1948 borders- not the 67 ones.
Consider this: Every concession made by Israel (the withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000, the Gaza Strip) to terrorist powers has been considered an Israeli weakness and only caused more violence to erupt.

[QUOTE=Similization;13004165]Next time you hear some IDF buys find explosives in an ambulance, ask yourself how. Did they actually stop an ambulance and tear it apart?! How often do they do things like that then? How many civilians do they kill by restricting even extreme emergency movement like that? [\QUOTE]

6) How many civilians do the Palestinians kill by smuggling bombs in ambulances? Israel shouldn't apologize for being stronger then the Palestinians. If a bomb is found in an ambulance, whose fault is it? Israel's fault, for trying to save its own citizens?
Or the Palestinian's fault, for trying to kill Israelis?

7) FYI: "Population displacements" by the army do not occur to make room for Israeli settlments, but occur for security reasons. Between Gaza and the border there is a 2 kilometer strip which has been cleared of everything. This happened because rockets were fired from civilian houses into Israel, farms and orchards that reached the fence were used as cover for terrorists and terrorist attacks. Most attacks were not aimed at soldiers, but at Israeli civilians.
The people who force Palestinians away from their homes are a minority of religious fanatics who are regular visitors of Israeli jails.

1)Study History.I didn't claim differently. However, illegal conquest is no more legitimate simply because Israel does it.2) Study history again.I didn't claim differently. However, illegal conquest is no more legitimate simply because Israel does it.3) Study History for the third time.There's a time and a place. And this isn't it for your history studies. Since the 1980s, Palestinian terrorist actions against Israeli civilians has almost exclusively been carried out in the manner I've already mentioned a couple of times. Meaning, if Israel wants peace, the occupation is counter productive.4)Excuse me for being rude- and please take no offense- but: Crap.
The Gaza strip is no longer under occupation.Bollox. As with all other parts of the occupied territories, what happens in the Gaza Strip happens at the sufferance of the Israeli military. More importantly though, is what doesn't happen because of said overlords.

Whether you want to face it or not, Israel is waging a generation long war on a mostly unarmed, impoverished, and disorganised peoples, and have pretty much total control over them. Barring attacks on civilian Israeli citizens and installations, any and all resistance and force is legitimate, warranted and completely understandable. Everyone has the right to fight off invaders, even Palestinians.5) Consider this: The Hamas, who is currently the leading party in Gaza, wishes to return to the 1948 borders- not the 67 ones.So? 50-odd years of Israeli leadership quite clearly demonstrates the state of Israel has no interest in a 2 state solution what so ever. Neither do portions of Hamas, for that matter. Regardless, it has to happen, and as fast as possible at that.Consider this: Every concession made by Israel (the withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000, the Gaza Strip) to terrorist powers has been considered an Israeli weakness and only caused more violence to erupt.Mostly due to internal power struggles between would-be PA's, but hey, anything can and should be used to excuse policies of ethnic cleansing, yeh? No mate. It's not an excuse to keep the occupation, piracy and deportations going. Neither is any of the rest of the mostly irrelevant bollox you've brought up.6) How many civilians do the Palestinians kill by smuggling bombs in ambulances? Israel shouldn't apologize for being stronger then the Palestinians. If a bomb is found in an ambulance, whose fault is it? Israel's fault, for trying to save its own citizens?
Or the Palestinian's fault, for trying to kill Israelis?Israel's fault, for restricting emergency services to the point that people get a suicidal urge for vengeance upon any and all Israeli citizens. Then again, it wouldn't happen if it wasn't for the fucking occupation.7) FYI: "Population displacements" by the army do not occur to make room for Israeli settlments, but occur for security reasons.And with that, I think it's my turn to say: "read some fucking history". Or hell, just follow the daily news. Even the Israeli media doesn't make that kind of frivolous claims mate. And neither should you. But I have to say, I admire the way you managed to not address almost everything you responded to, while trying to invoke some sort of circular justification for keeping up the ethnic cleansing. Impressive, that. Just not in a good way.

*Bump*

Ok…. So tell me why should Israel exist?

Tell me why Israel should not exist. And you should not end your sentence with a question mark as you did not ask a question but a statement. At best, an exclamation point should have been used.

Israel?

Yes, actually. Compare a map of the original partition to a map of Israel after the war.

Egypt, Jordan, and Israel all took parts of it.

Maybe we should just give Madagascar to the Jews!?

Maybe we should just give Madagascar to the Jews!?

And what about the people already living there?

*Bump*

Ok…. So tell me why should Israel exist?

Because it does.

1)Study History. Israel won the 1947 war- meaning they kept the enemy from annexing land. The land that was given to the Palestinians by the UN was gobbled up by Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (The West Bank). Where is Palestine? Who took it by force? Israel? .

Yes, in 1967. Don't forget the explusions of 1947 either.


2) Study history again. First and foremost- show me a Palestininan nation under a sovreign rule..

Show me an American nation comprising the 51 states before 1500. Show me France in 5,000 BCE....


3) Study History for the third time. Between 1948-1967 Israel was constantly attacked by Fedayun, Palestinians who lived in Gaza and the West Bank backed and funded by Egypt and Jordan. We have now 19 years of no occupations, but of constant attacks by terrorists. The attacks centred mostly on buses and civilians in Israeli Border towns, and basically- anything Israeli. Sounds familiar?..

19 years of "no occupations"? I'd get studying current affairs, nevermind history, were I you.


And just for the record- Israel began to dismantle settlements in the West Bank at the same time, but stopped because of the endless barrage of rockets from Gaza. Add to the above facts the pre-occupation terrorist attacks.?..

There was never a plan to evacuate the West Bank. And besides, whats the point of having civillians there if its supposed to be for defence?

5) Consider this: The Hamas, who is currently the leading party in Gaza, wishes to return to the 1948 borders- not the 67 ones.
Consider this: Every concession made by Israel (the withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000, the Gaza Strip) to terrorist powers has been considered an Israeli weakness and only caused more violence to erupt..?..

Gaza wasn't a concession. It was a tactical move to concentrate resources on Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank.



6) How many civilians do the Palestinians kill by smuggling bombs in ambulances? Israel shouldn't apologize for being stronger then the Palestinians. If a bomb is found in an ambulance, whose fault is it? Israel's fault, for trying to save its own citizens?
Or the Palestinian's fault, for trying to kill Israelis?..?..

Who says they do? the IDF?

Due to the US veto, Palestinian violence is a legitimate response to a brutal and illegal occupation, in the absence of peaceful methods.

7) FYI: "Population displacements" by the army do not occur to make room for Israeli settlments, but occur for security reasons. .

'said the IDF press release'. 'Any settlement building that may occur on, near, or beside such areas is purely coincidental.'


The people who force Palestinians away from their homes are a minority of religious fanatics who are regular visitors of Israeli jails.

Who are they visiting? You aren't trying to imply they run the risk of imprisonment, as if they were attacking Israeli citizens are you?

Why is it that the few settlers that are jailed have been before a civillian court with full representation, whereas a Palestinian - should he survive - will face a military tribunal or imprisonment without charge?

And what about the people already living there?

We could transfer them to greenland! Lots and lots of empty desolate spaces over there.


And who would get pissed? The polar bears?

Since the 1980s, Palestinian terrorist actions against Israeli civilians has almost exclusively been carried out in the manner I've already mentioned a couple of times. Meaning, if Israel wants peace, the occupation is counter productive.

.

Once again- I take you back to 48-67, and more recently, the Gaza Strip. You can also add Lebanon in 2000 if you wish.

19 years of "no occupations"? I'd get studying current affairs, nevermind history, were I you.
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I meant between 48-67. As far as I'm concerned, a plot of land dealt out by the UN is as legal as can be and isn't an occupation. As for the Gaza strip and the West Bank- Israel really shouldn't be there. But fact of the matter is, that when Israel will pull out (and they eventually will), it will do nothing to promote peace.
As history teaches us (and I can really keep on giving examples) occupation changes nothing. There were hostilities before, and there will be after.
Israel is in no way justified, but also, in no way to blame.

There was never a plan to evacuate the West Bank. And besides, whats the point of having civillians there if its supposed to be for defence?

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Actually there was such a plan.
And Jews were there because Israel gave tax benefits for citizens who went to live in the territories. Israel did fuck up here, because basically, they turned a blind eye to the religious fanatics and encouraged settlments. Right now, there are Israeli troops patrolling Palestinian olive groves to stop settlers from uprooting them. Clashes between settlers and soldiers are not uncommon, especially in Hebron, and there are new settlments popping up daily, and being dismantled daily. Right now, the IDF is policing both Jews and Palestinians in the West Bank.

Whether you want to face it or not, Israel is waging a generation long war on a mostly unarmed, impoverished, and disorganised peoples.

Whether you want to face it or nor, The Palestinians are waging a generation long war on a better armed, richer, and more organized body. They are not sitting around playing monopoly.
Just because Palestine is weaker doesn't automatically make it right and justified.

. Barring attacks on civilian Israeli citizens and installations, any and all resistance and force is legitimate, warranted and completely understandable....
...As long as it is Palestine?
Once again, Israel shouldn't apologize for having a strong army. The Israelis have every right to fight, and so do the Palestinians.
It is a shame, however, that most Palestinian attacks are focused on civilians.

As history teaches us (and I can really keep on giving examples) occupation changes nothing. There were hostilities before, and there will be after.
Israel is in no way justified, but also, in no way to blame..

Yet you go on to mention a number of ways in which they most certainly are....



Actually there was such a plan.
And Jews were there because Israel gave tax benefits for citizens who went to live in the territories. Israel did fuck up here, because basically, they turned a blind eye to the religious fanatics and encouraged settlments. Right now, there are Israeli troops patrolling Palestinian olive groves to stop settlers from uprooting them. Clashes between settlers and soldiers are not uncommon, especially in Hebron, and there are new settlments popping up daily, and being dismantled daily. Right now, the IDF is policing both Jews and Palestinians in the West Bank. ..

With one law for one, and another for the other.....

Presumably they don't have to apologise for this either.....
JERUSALEM, 26 August 2007 (IRIN) - The Israeli ban on deliveries of paper to Gaza is not only threatening to create a shortage of textbooks in the Strip but also shining a spotlight on what constitutes legitimate humanitarian aid.

http://www.irinnews.org/Report.aspx?ReportId=73944

The usual term is "self hating Jew." I've been called that myself, on certain fora, just for criticizing Israel's policies. Let alone existence.

Well for me I find it confusing that firstly most of the original Zionists were secular Jews and secondly, if it is a response to the holocaust, wouldn't it be best to actually fight anti-semitism than allowing it to exist by retreating to a country? I mean, if you simply retreat and setuip a country, you ultimately allow the anti-semtism to build and thus your haven then ends up becoming a target for that anti-semitism.

What I find interesting are those who accuse the palestinians of terrorism obviously don't know their own story and the activities that took place. Look at the news papers from the 1950's for example covering the terrorist attacks in British Palestine.

To ignore ones own history is to ignore the foundation for alot of conflicts out there - this goes for all countries.