NationStates Jolt Archive

In the light of the troop shortage for the wars in the Middle East, the United States has currently been debating the age old question, is there any possible way we can bring the draft back?

Now, this isn't a matter as to whether or not you like it or not, for if they bring it back, none of us youngins have no choice.

What it comes down to is if it is socially, politically, humanely and...screw it...grammatically possible.

Here's the deal:
Hypothetically, the Government wants to bring the draft back. Now they face problems.
Do they change the age to get more citzens?
Do they lower it and face the surge of parents protesting or do they raise it and face the surge of protesting children and siblings?
Are they required to include women because of equal rights?
Is it wrong to require immigrants to go first?
How many are they allowed to take at a time?
How long must they stay in before drafted again?
Is there a limit?

With questions like these, do you think it is possible for them to even think thoroughly about bringing the draft back?

Open debate. :D

Oh sure, if they want riots, they can bring back the draft. No serious politician worth his shit is talking about a draft. There have been two whole people talking about it, one of whom has no power (an advisor to the Pres. who was quickly told to stuff it by Dubya himself) and Charlie Rangel, who was always a bit nuts.

I'm all for bringing back the draft. I want an excuse to put some bricks through some windows.

Oh sure, if they want riots, they can bring back the draft. No serious politician worth his shit is talking about a draft. There have been two whole people talking about it, one of whom has no power (an advisor to the Pres. who was quickly told to stuff it by Dubya himself) and Charlie Rangel, who was always a bit nuts.

I'm all for bringing back the draft. I want an excuse to put some bricks through some windows.

Bricks?:)

sure they can as long as they dont care that they wont be re-elected if they do.

and since when has any politician put getting re-elected over their principles?

Bricks?:)

Eh... Okay, rocks. Bricks are hard to come by these days.

Bringing the draft back is the political equivalent of playing Russian Roulette with a crossbow.

Political suicide for U.S. politicians is spelled d-r-a-f-t. It's probably the most unpopular move that could be made publicly now, with the exception of eating a live puppy on national television.

Maybe...

If all the people that voted for the war go first!

sure they can as long as they dont care that they wont be re-elected if they do.

and since when has any politician put getting re-elected over their principles?

agreed... can you say Political Suicide?

Oh sure, if they want riots, they can bring back the draft. No serious politician worth his shit is talking about a draft. There have been two whole people talking about it, one of whom has no power (an advisor to the Pres. who was quickly told to stuff it by Dubya himself) and Charlie Rangel, who was always a bit nuts.

I'm all for bringing back the draft. I want an excuse to put some bricks through some windows.

Haha I agree. It would be an uproar
I just thought it an interesting debate discussion. Because the topic does tend to come up...maybe not publicly in politics but you know people are talking about it. Honestly.

Eh... Okay, rocks. Bricks are hard to come by these days.

:(

:(

What? Rioting doesn't pay well, you know. You have to scavenge the necessary equiptment!

Maybe...

If all the people that voted for the war go first!

Hahahaha! Brilliant.

I've got family over there fighting. If we could send some of those stuck up blood-sucking creatures over there I'm sure they'd change their mind real fast.
A taste of their own medicine, perhaps?

((Politician in Latin means many blood sucking creatures))

Suicidal.

I don't think any politician wants to be known the one who put the draft back into the USA. Sure people won't mind if Mexico or Canada decide to invade, but if it's to send to the kids off so some part of the Middle East so GW Bush and friends can prop up their oil friends, no.

Haha I agree. It would be an uproar
I just thought it an interesting debate discussion. Because the topic does tend to come up...maybe not publicly in politics but you know people are talking about it. Honestly.

in the interest of a debate... if the draft was brought back and (age not withstanding) I was drafted... sure I would go.

Why?

1) Probably the best Weight loss program around... for free.
2) Learn some interesting skills... for free.
3) Learn proper excercise techniques... all for free.
4) Travel to another country! on Uncle Sam's payroll.

of course, that doesn't mean I WANT a draft.

in the interest of a debate... if the draft was brought back and (age not withstanding) I was drafted... sure I would go.

Why?

1) Probably the best Weight loss program around... for free.
2) Learn some interesting skills... for free.
3) Learn proper excercise techniques... all for free.
4) Travel to another country! on Uncle Sam's payroll.

of course, that doesn't mean I WANT a draft.

The first one piqued my interest...

in the interest of a debate... if the draft was brought back and (age not withstanding) I was drafted... sure I would go.

Why?

1) Probably the best Weight loss program around... for free.
2) Learn some interesting skills... for free.
3) Learn proper excercise techniques... all for free.
4) Travel to another country! on Uncle Sam's payroll.

Travel to far-off lands! Meet interesting new people! Kill them!

:eek: You guys don't have draft? No wonder your beer sucks.

Of course they can - they can do whatever the hell they want when they want.

The problem comes in peoples susceptibility to the decisions made - if they just said 'guess what there's a draft!" it would never work.

However, when they take things with small steps at a time - making it appear as a public duty, something that if you don't do you will be evil, making a larger and larger sense of fear in the populace, etc. - then people just accept it.

Yeah sure you say 'I would never accept that" but people accept these things all the time. Just look at everything else - all rights are dwindling, guns, property, press, petition, privacy, trial, etc. They do all of these things by the tactics listed above - it's all a kind of 'for the greater good' type stuff.

The government can take what is most valuable to anyone - they are doing it right now.

in the interest of a debate... if the draft was brought back and (age not withstanding) I was drafted... sure I would go.

Why?

1) Probably the best Weight loss program around... for free.
2) Learn some interesting skills... for free.
3) Learn proper excercise techniques... all for free.
4) Travel to another country! on Uncle Sam's payroll.

of course, that doesn't mean I WANT a draft.

Then why don't you join the military? You did know that you can do that without a letter telling you to, right?

How can you use your possible benefits to advocate forcing anybody and everybody to go? Seems pretty selfish...

agreed... can you say Political Suicide?

yeah. although on the up side, if everyone's sons daughters and grandchildren were threatened with the possibility of being forced to serve in iraq and eventually iran (since we'd have the personel) they would be far more active in their opposition to stupid wars of aggression.

in the interest of a debate... if the draft was brought back and (age not withstanding) I was drafted... sure I would go.

Why?

1) Probably the best Weight loss program around... for free.
2) Learn some interesting skills... for free.
3) Learn proper excercise techniques... all for free.
4) Travel to another country! on Uncle Sam's payroll.

of course, that doesn't mean I WANT a draft.

You are quite uneducated in the workings of war aren't you?

in the interest of a debate... if the draft was brought back and (age not withstanding) I was drafted... sure I would go.

Why?

1) Probably the best Weight loss program around... for free.
2) Learn some interesting skills... for free.
3) Learn proper excercise techniques... all for free.
4) Travel to another country! on Uncle Sam's payroll.

of course, that doesn't mean I WANT a draft.

Looking at what happened in Vietnam, the government sends you somewhere and when come back, and if you can't be useful anymore - they'll throw you on the trash heap.

Can the draft be brought back? Sure, anything can happen. Although I don't think it will fly with most people. What would be the point? To attack another country that did nothing to warrant attack?

Travel to far-off lands! Meet interesting new people! Kill them!
And everyone knows chicks dig scars. Especially the one's that cover 95% of the area where your face used to be.

They should just see me play any first person shooter, and they'll never send me over.

Me: "NO ONE IS SAFE FROM THE FURY!! BAWAHAHa!"
Teammate: "Friendly fire! Friendly fire Aaaahh!"

They should just see me play any first person shooter, and they'll never send me over.

Me: "NO ONE IS SAFE FROM THE FURY!! BAWAHAHa!"
Teammate: "Friendly fire! Friendly fire Aaaahh!"

You play Halo?

Sure they can, I have a short run to Canada.

Not with the 400 yards of fence we're putting up.

Not with the 400 yards of fence we're putting up.

I will have to buy some nice bolt-cutters then or a shovel.

Click Stand;12993379']I will have to buy some nice bolt-cutters then or a shovel.

Or just do a 401 yard dash around it. ;)

Hurdles anyone?

Or just do a 401 yard dash around it. ;)

Or avoid the 400 yard fence all together, but I like setting goals for myself(well aside from joining the military).

They could, but they won't.

The US government is less than useless at the moment, and the hypocritical sunshine patriot Americans who put these asshats in power are too spineless to follow through with the consequences of what happens when you put stupid people in large numbers in charge of the world's greatest super power.

I would vote for the puppy eater if he ranj against the draft restorer >_>

Just a few years ago, I would have thought it impossible for the USA to invade and hold a Middle-Eastern country. Unforseen events made that idea marketable to the voters.

So yeah, a draft could happen. For instance, as a response to massive unemployment and a need to stimulate a badly-imploded economy at the same time as getting rioters off the streets.

In the sense of "absent a threat to it's existence, no modern state would consider the draft as a good way to build an army" I can only agree, the draft sucks ... but there might be other reasons.

in the interest of a debate... if the draft was brought back and (age not withstanding) I was drafted... sure I would go.

Why?

1) Probably the best Weight loss program around... for free.
2) Learn some interesting skills... for free.
3) Learn proper excercise techniques... all for free.
4) Travel to another country! on Uncle Sam's payroll.

of course, that doesn't mean I WANT a draft.

I make enough to pay for a trainer and all without the need for all the other bullshit

I make enough to pay for a trainer and all without the need for all the other bullshit

Well, it sounds like you have the skills to dodge the draft anyway. So don't sweat it.

In the light of the troop shortage for the wars in the Middle East, the United States has currently been debating the age old question, is there any possible way we can bring the draft back?

Not realisticly, no.

Now, this isn't a matter as to whether or not you like it or not, for if they bring it back, none of us youngins have no choice.

One of the factors in ending the last conscription the US had was them meddeling kids. (And BTW, don't assume everyone here is young. Remember what they say about assuming...)


Now they face problems.
Do they change the age to get more citzens?
Do they lower it and face the surge of parents protesting or do they raise it and face the surge of protesting children and siblings?
Are they required to include women because of equal rights?
Is it wrong to require immigrants to go first?
How many are they allowed to take at a time?
How long must they stay in before drafted again?
Is there a limit?

You missed a couple of biggies.
1) The military doesn't want conscripts. They know a conscript military is an inferior military.
2) The size of the volunteer military is determined by congress. Currently, it's about half the strength it was 20 years ago before the polidiots gutted manpower in favor of shiny toys. We need more boots on the ground, but conscription isn't the answer.

With questions like these, do you think it is possible for them to even think thoroughly about bringing the draft back?

Well, it sounds like you have the skills to dodge the draft anyway. So don't sweat it.

At 24 with bad knee's even without my education and skill set I would deffinatly not be a first choice

Well, they said that there would be riots in the streets when they initiated a draft in 1940. There wasn't. I'm sure they could pull it off, unfortunately.

Well, they said that there would be riots in the streets when they initiated a draft in 1940. There wasn't. I'm sure they could pull it off, unfortunately.

And in 1965 they said there were going to be riots ... and there were...

Well, they said that there would be riots in the streets when they initiated a draft in 1940. There wasn't. I'm sure they could pull it off, unfortunately.

I seriously doubt most people in 1940 truly believed that Germany or Japan didn't post a threat to the United States...even if they talked isolationist, the fear was still there. That's a lot different from today, when there isn't a huge threat looming on the horizon that will motivate people in to serving for the country.

If you want to end the Iraq war, try to implement a draft.

I seriously doubt most people in 1940 truly believed that Germany or Japan didn't post a threat to the United States...

Of course they didn't - Al Gore hadn't invented the internet at that time. ;)

Can They Bring The Draft Back?
Not without substantially increasing the population of Canada.

I seriously doubt most people in 1940 truly believed that Germany or Japan didn't post a threat to the United States...even if they talked isolationist, the fear was still there.
Maybe your right.
Except the part about Japan. They were afraid of Germany, sure, but the irony is the average American wasn't all too concerned about Japan.

Not realisticly, no.

*snip more, in context.*


Damn good post. The KAT A, your reply is eagerly awaited.

And yeah the other stuff. D2, one of the few I would happily swap brains with.

In the light of the troop shortage for the wars in the Middle East, the United States has currently been debating the age old question, is there any possible way we can bring the draft back?

Now, this isn't a matter as to whether or not you like it or not, for if they bring it back, none of us youngins have no choice.

What it comes down to is if it is socially, politically, humanely and...screw it...grammatically possible.

Here's the deal:
Hypothetically, the Government wants to bring the draft back. Now they face problems.
Do they change the age to get more citzens?
Do they lower it and face the surge of parents protesting or do they raise it and face the surge of protesting children and siblings?
Are they required to include women because of equal rights?
Is it wrong to require immigrants to go first?
How many are they allowed to take at a time?
How long must they stay in before drafted again?
Is there a limit?

With questions like these, do you think it is possible for them to even think thoroughly about bringing the draft back?

Open debate. :D

if thinking thoroughly were a prerequisite to doing anything do you think there'd even be any of this reason the're even considering the proposition in the first place?

i remember "draft beer, not students" and how that helped to end the debacle in viet nam. i guess they must really be short on troops though, because they've finnaly shut up about whether or not gays should be allowed to serve in the military.

well pity. they aren't fighting for any cause of mine. kill and die so cheney can count is oil soaked blood money? meh.

they can and will do just about anything for reasons that have nothing to do with anything human or even living. so maybe they will, maybe they won't. more likely at this point they won't. mostly because rich and influential war mongers still don't want to see their own children ending up on the front lines.

which is kind of what the whole question is about anyway.

but ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. strainger things can and do happen. just not very often.

=^^=
.../\...

in the interest of a debate... if the draft was brought back and (age not withstanding) I was drafted... sure I would go.

Why?

1) Probably the best Weight loss program around... for free.
2) Learn some interesting skills... for free.
3) Learn proper excercise techniques... all for free.
4) Travel to another country! on Uncle Sam's payroll.

of course, that doesn't mean I WANT a draft.

It's even better. You actually could join the army and get all of the above + a salary ! Why are you waiting? http://www.goarmy.com/flindex.jsp

It's even better. You actually could join the army and get all of the above + a salary ! Why are you waiting? http://www.goarmy.com/flindex.jsp

What are you, an Army recruiter?

Do they change the age to get more citzens?
There are international laws against this, though it is of course possible for anyone to just ignore them. Still, it wouldn't be good for a contry's international reputation (see some African nations). For one, allies might begin to wonder if the country is even capable of maintaining a military and might decide that they're better off without the it (and start creating more of a military themselves or getting new allies).

Do they lower it and face the surge of parents protesting or do they raise it and face the surge of protesting children and siblings?

What? How would they face the surge of protesting children and siblings if they raise it? All that would mean is that fewer people get drafted. Beyond a certain age, you don't bother drafting people for combat (it'd be kinda the same as with the children; they wouldn't be taken seriously anymore). I haven't actually ever heard of anyone being drafted to a desk job.

Are they required to include women because of equal rights?
Required by who exactly? I'd personally argue that if military service is compulsory, it should include women, but that military service shouldn't be compulsory in the first place.

Is it wrong to require immigrants to go first?

Immigrants... are we talking people who have actually become citizens of the country in question or people who have work permits, but aren't citizens? Because both have been done and the latter is usually looked upon with resentment by other nations. Diplomacy *is* a factor.

How many are they allowed to take at a time?

Allowed? Pfft, drafting isn't a question of allowed but a question of capability. If you're in a situation where you're drafting, you'll take as many as you can possibly get with the resources you have.

How long must they stay in before drafted again?

What? stay in what? Stay drafted before they're drafted again?

Is there a limit?

To what exactly?

Any military service that aims to create a viable fighting force is bound to be a failure. It is far better for drafts/military service to realize this and merely use it either as a propaganda tool to encourage people to join (such as, forcing everyone to a short stay in the military) or to use it as a tool to teach people the basics, so that it won't take so long if you do end up needing to draft them for a real war (which should be defensive in nature, otherwise there will be grumbling).

Service gurantees citizenship!

Service gurantees citizenship!

Yeah but what if you get torn in-half and eaten by a giant bug while doing service?

N-O,no.Why?Well,it just wouldn't work out.They had Jon Stewart on Bill Moyers Journal on PBS one day,and he said it best.

"It's a delicate situation.There's a lot of protest already.Does Bush really think 25,000 troops is gonna make a difference?No.But thats what he has.Thats what he can do.What he'd like to do is send 400,000 troops.But to get that he'd need a draft.And then the whole thing falls apart."

Exactly.The war is relitively unpopular,which is the main reason it probably won't work.Look at Vietnam,look at all those protests.I seriously doubt with a draft they could get equal or less protest.Congress would never go for it. In WWII the Nazis and Japenese were like,wow an enemy you really wanted to go after.You know after Pearl Harbor and seeing concentration camps.Maybe if it were a different kind of war,like WWII,were everyone was really,really inspired and bonded.Instead Congress bicers.It won't work.Not today anyway.

In the light of the troop shortage for the wars in the Middle East, the United States has currently been debating the age old question, is there any possible way we can bring the draft back?

They don't have to bring it back. The mechanism is already in place. All the Pentagon has to do is use it.


Here's the deal:
Hypothetically, the Government wants to bring the draft back. Now they face problems.
Do they change the age to get more citzens?

The age groups are already part of the mechanism. They take ages 19 to 25 first, then 18 to 19, then if they can't get enough people, they go 26 to 30.

Do they lower it and face the surge of parents protesting or do they raise it and face the surge of protesting children and siblings?
That has nothing to do with it.
Are they required to include women because of equal rights?
Only males register for Selective Service according to law. You would have to change the law.
Is it wrong to require immigrants to go first?
They don't have any requirement for immigrants to go first. Please educate yourself.
How many are they allowed to take at a time?
As many as they can afford to train at once. Currently, there are fewer basic training installations (about 1/4 of the number in 1987). Probably not as many as you think.
How long must they stay in before drafted again?
Draftees are likely to be serving 18 months on active duty. If you are trained in a specialty (Arabic translator) that is short of people, you may be kept on for more time (up to eight years).
Is there a limit?
Technically, you serve at the discretion of the Commander in Chief. This also goes for people who joined voluntarily, and think they have retired. Officers who have left the service can be called up at any time - you've never really left - and you can be made to serve indefinitely. But that is not likely in practice. Enlisted personnel who leave after 8 years have no further obligation - those who served, say, 4 years active, have a 4 year inactive obligation - that is, they can be called up during those remaining years.
With questions like these, do you think it is possible for them to even think thoroughly about bringing the draft back?
Your questions are unenlightened, and show an astounding level of ignorance. The draft is already in place - all it takes is the Pentagon to use it.

Open debate. :D[/QUOTE]

You've posited an interesting question.

Certainly, they can. The real question is, "should they?"

First, so you know from where I'm coming: I'm a child of the '60s, but I've served my time -- 6 years in the United States Air Force, 4 years in the United States Army serving in the Active Reserves.

I don't think that a conscripted military is as good as a volunteer military. But, if there are not enough volunteers, a conscripted force is far better than a mercenary force. Even Machievelli knew this in the early 16th Century.

Sure, we'd lose a "vast" number of people to Canada. Probably a couple more than left when "he" was elected President the past 43 elections or so. That is, a few will, but probably not so many as did during the Vietnam war -- which really wasn't all that many. The sad truth is, so long as the Super Bowl is on television on time, the vast majority of the public doesn't give a whit what the politicians are doing.

Should women be drafted this time? Of course; if the '70s taught us anything at all, it is that there aren't that many jobs that are gender-specific. There were a lot of women in the service when I served and the percentage of incompetent women was pretty much the same as of incompetent men.

Riots in the streets? Again, so long as there is gas at the pump, sports on TV and a new game out for the PS3, the majority won't care.

The upside of a draft is that as the draftees leave the service, they come into the workforce with a bit of job experience and a different perspective. Okay, I'll admit that this is a double-edged sword as the experience and perspective aren't always positive, but it's still an overall benefit to society as a whole.

How would they pull it off without losing their place at the trough? Just add it as a rider to a very popular or necessary bill and pass it without debate. Underhanded, but a common practice.

Either way, it will be interesting to see how it goes this time around if they try; and very interesting to discuss along the way.

Again, thanks for starting the thread.

Wow, it seems the US military is pretty stretched, I guess that totally rules out a war and/or occupation of Iran and Syria if Bush can barely scrape enough troops together without a draft to secure Iraq.

Wow, it seems the US military is pretty stretched, I guess that totally rules out a war and/or occupation of Iran and Syria if Bush can barely scrape enough troops together without a draft to secure Iraq.

I guess that means we'll have to use thermonuclear weapons.

I guess that means we'll have to use thermonuclear weapons.
Cool, nuclear winter!:cool:

Cool, nuclear winter!:cool:

Two birds with one stone - it would solve global warming.

I like the draft idea.

That way all Americans have to join sooner or later.

Their own government will ship them to Iraq and they will return in coffins.

After a while, no Americans are left and then we can give their land back to the native Indians. After all, they stole the land from those poor people.

The world would cheer in peace, but it would become more boredom as well.

By instance, only Americans can invent such something as a Bush.

I like the draft idea.

That way all Americans have to join sooner or later.

Their own government will ship them to Iraq and they will return in coffins.

After a while, no Americans are left and then we can give their land back to the native Indians. After all, they stole the land from those poor people.

The world would cheer in peace, but it would become more boredom as well.

By instance, only Americans can invent such something as a Bush.

Given the current kill ratios, it's highly unlikely that we would run out of Americans. The Middle East would certainly run out of people at that rate, though.

Given the current kill ratios, it's highly unlikely that we would run out of Americans. The Middle East would certainly run out of people at that rate, though.

The draft soldiers will not be of the same level as the current women and men.

The last time I was in US of A it seemed that everybody was enormous fat.

And not just regular fat, no, I mean, exceptional fat.

Are they required to include women because of equal rights?

I missed that in the noise, but RO's point by point brought it to my attention. SOCUS ruled on that issue ages ago. Women are exempt from "selective service".


Props to Nobel Hobos for the compliment and to Nation States II for the comic trolife.

The question should not be, would bringing back the draft be necessary/ethical.
The question should be why does the Bush administration need all the extra troops?

The answer is
Iran!

Who here would support an invasion of Iran?
Who would trust the politicians not to make a mess of it?

One of the factors in ending the last conscription the US had was them meddeling kids. (And BTW, don't assume everyone here is young. Remember what they say about assuming...)


I was not assuming that everyone here was young. I was simply stating that because I am a girl of 16, this issue will impact me greatly in the coming years as well as the rest of my generation.


Immigrants... are we talking people who have actually become citizens of the country in question or people who have work permits, but aren't citizens? Because both have been done and the latter is usually looked upon with resentment by other nations. Diplomacy *is* a factor.

I was simply talking about illegal immigration, since latley it has been a hot topic and I know in talking about this topic with other people I have regularly heard "Send them illegals over first! Make them earn it!" Yes, it seems racist, but to some people it is perfectly logical.

Allowed? Pfft, drafting isn't a question of allowed but a question of capability. If you're in a situation where you're drafting, you'll take as many as you can possibly get with the resources you have.

Yes, I realize this. It's a matter of whether or not they can find this capability to *allow* themselves to do this.


What? stay in what? Stay drafted before they're drafted again?


Yes. That is what I was getting at. You have to understand, I have family fighting over in the Middle East right now. I also have family in the Armed forces here at home. My cousin over there is on his third term, and some of the family at home has never left. Although I am grateful to have them here at home and not fighting, it just shows that the deployment issues are a tad bit out of order? Is it okay for some groups to go out 2, 3, or 4 times and others to just sit at home waiting?

You've posited an interesting question.

Certainly, they can. The real question is, "should they?"

Thank you. Yeah, indeed that is the real question. A complicated one at that.

First, so you know from where I'm coming: I'm a child of the '60s, but I've served my time -- 6 years in the United States Air Force, 4 years in the United States Army serving in the Active Reserves.

Thank you for serving our country! It means a great deal. :)

Should women be drafted this time? Of course; if the '70s taught us anything at all, it is that there aren't that many jobs that are gender-specific. There were a lot of women in the service when I served and the percentage of incompetent women was pretty much the same as of incompetent men.

Thanks for the input. Some people still say women shouldn't be drafted. And personally I do not know where I stand on that fact. It is quite hard to figure out but, as you've said, you've seen it all through the years! You're probably right!

Again, thanks for starting the thread.

No problem. Politics and other things like such are of great interest to me. Thanks to everyone for posting their views as well!

Who here would support an invasion of Iran?
Who would trust the politicians not to make a mess of it?

Ha! Great question!

I would not support going into Iran. It's Iraq all over again.
Iran is one of the reasons we cant leave Iraq right now anyways.
We don't have the numbers to go into Iran or the support of this nation for that matter.

I admire politicians in the job that they do, but in no way would I trust them not to mess it up with Iran. No way. No wayyyy.

It's even better. You actually could join the army and get all of the above + a salary ! Why are you waiting? http://www.goarmy.com/flindex.jsp

Wow, the US Armys' pay scales suck.

The question should not be, would bringing back the draft be necessary/ethical.
The question should be why does the Bush administration need all the extra troops?

The answer is
Iran!

Who here would support an invasion of Iran?
Who would trust the politicians not to make a mess of it?

Well, if Obama becomes President, we'll be invading Pakistan. And Hillary is trying to be the next Margaret Thatcher, so if she's President, we'll need even more troops.

Wow, the US Armys' pay scales suck.

Is it sad when I was making more then that working security at a nursing home?

Is it sad when I was making more then that working security at a nursing home?

It's not really just pay that soldiers receive. Did you receive a home, subsidies for your dependents, and free medical care for you and your family while you were a security guard?

Get to shop tax free at the PX or commissary (on post department store and grocery store)?

Now, if you're single, that probably sucks - because you'll be living in the barracks in peacetime, but you still get the other benefits.

It's not really just pay that soldiers receive. Did you receive a home, subsidies for your dependents, and free medical care for you and your family while you were a security guard?

Get to shop tax free at the PX or commissary (on post department store and grocery store)?

Now, if you're single, that probably sucks - because you'll be living in the barracks in peacetime, but you still get the other benefits.

I was comparing it with the pay scales in the UK where you get paid more and receive all those benefits you just mentioned but meh.

It's not really just pay that soldiers receive. Did you receive a home, subsidies for your dependents, and free medical care for you and your family while you were a security guard?

Get to shop tax free at the PX or commissary (on post department store and grocery store)?

Now, if you're single, that probably sucks - because you'll be living in the barracks in peacetime, but you still get the other benefits.

Well to be fair (I am single) and even the part time workers were covered with total health coverage ...

I was comparing it with the pay scales in the UK where you get paid more and receive all those benefits you just mentioned but meh.

I know that UK and Canadian soldiers get paid more. There are other differences as well. In the US Army, for example, if you keep re-enlisting, and don't keep advancing in rank (say, you're an E-4), eventually you won't be allowed to re-enlist. For officers, it's even more strict on this account.

I met several Canadian soldiers, on the other hand, who had been on active duty as E-4s for almost 20 years. They're not big on the "move up or move out" concept.

Then why don't you join the military? You did know that you can do that without a letter telling you to, right?

How can you use your possible benefits to advocate forcing anybody and everybody to go? Seems pretty selfish...

It's even better. You actually could join the army and get all of the above + a salary ! Why are you waiting? http://www.goarmy.com/flindex.jsp

To answer all your questions. Tried. Failed the physical decades ago. Heart problems.

Nowdays... Too old. (which is why the phrase "Age notwithstanding" is included)


You are quite uneducated in the workings of war aren't you?

Did I mention anything about fighting or the mechanisms of war in my positive points of the draft?

Looking at what happened in Vietnam, the government sends you somewhere and when come back, and if you can't be useful anymore - they'll throw you on the trash heap. 1) My family would support me. reguardless.
2) I would still have my civllian skills to fall back upon.

Well to be fair (I am single) and even the part time workers were covered with total health coverage ...

That's not common for people working at most low wage jobs.

It's not really just pay that soldiers receive. Did you receive a home, subsidies for your dependents, and free medical care for you and your family while you were a security guard?

Get to shop tax free at the PX or commissary (on post department store and grocery store)?

Now, if you're single, that probably sucks - because you'll be living in the barracks in peacetime, but you still get the other benefits.

met an airforce personnel assigned to Hawaii. he rented his place. a nice two bedroom townhouse.

so he didn't live in the barracks.

of course, that was Air Force. :p

met an airforce personnel assigned to Hawaii. he rented his place. a nice two bedroom townhouse.

so he didn't live in the barracks.

of course, that was Air Force. :p

The Air Force is the place to be, these days. If there is a draft, it's advisable to voluntarily enlist, so you get to choose your branch.

Then choose Air Force. You're extremely unlikely to ever be in a position where people are shooting at you. And since you're not an officer, you'll never be a pilot, and won't get shot down over some godforsaken place.

The Air Force is the place to be, these days. If there is a draft, it's advisable to voluntarily enlist, so you get to choose your branch.

Then choose Air Force. You're extremely unlikely to ever be in a position where people are shooting at you. And since you're not an officer, you'll never be a pilot, and won't get shot down over some godforsaken place.

Can't be a pilot. Bad eyesight... very bad eyesight.

but me, rather be Navy. At least I know how to... er... float? :D

but Air Force would be a second choice.

It would be Air Force first choice for me.

After that, the Marines. Haha.

This may sound stupid but what's the difference between the Navy and the Navy Seals?

Anyone who supports the war should be drafted.

Anyone who supports the war should be drafted.

Sel Appa: State your case, please. This interests me a lot because I have been through many a debate like such, and I am willing to fight you about this. :D

It would be Air Force first choice for me.

After that, the Marines. Haha.

This may sound stupid but what's the difference between the Navy and the Navy Seals?

Navy Seals. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy_seals)

The Navy's special Ops Forces.

Sel Appa: State your case, please. This interests me a lot because I have been through many a debate like such, and I am willing to fight you about this. :D

I imagine his argument is the same as mine. If you think the war is worthwhile and worth the loss of american life, then you should feel that it's worth your own life.

It's easy to support a war when it's not your ass on the line. It's easy to send other people to die. If you truly thought a cause worth while, truly thought it was worth the loss of life, then yours should be the first life put on the line.

Navy Seals. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy_seals)

The Navy's special Ops Forces.

Thank you ^^

I imagine his argument is the same as mine. If you think the war is worthwhile and worth the loss of american life, then you should feel that it's worth your own life.

It's easy to support a war when it's not your ass on the line. It's easy to send other people to die. If you truly thought a cause worth while, truly thought it was worth the loss of life, then yours should be the first life put on the line.

Whoa now. Let's not jump to conclusions. Nobody said I was for the war. I am not. I do not think we should have been there in the first place. The timing was all wrong.

But please, keep in mind, as I have repeated several times, my cousin is stationed in Iraq right now fighting. I do not think the war is worth the lives of our nation's men in women. I do not. I never have. I never will.

However, since we are there, and we are fighting, I find it only best for us to finish what we have started, in contrast to everyone who is "against" the war who says we should get out now.

And do what? Abandon the poor people so they can be taken over by Iran or succumb into Civil War?

To make this all completely clear, again: No, I do not support us being in this war. Yes, I think we should stay until we finish what we started. No, I do not support the loss of life that our country is providing to try and save those of another country farther off. Yes, if I word it like that it sounds harsh but let's get real and consider our own nation about anyone else's. And, finally, No, I do not think the cost of war overall is worth the cause of us being in Iraq in the first place.

Thank you ^^Your welcome.


Whoa now. Let's not jump to conclusions. Nobody said I was for the war. I am not. I do not think we should have been there in the first place. The timing was all wrong.

But please, keep in mind, as I have repeated several times, my cousin is stationed in Iraq right now fighting. I do not think the war is worth the lives of our nation's men in women. I do not. I never have. I never will.

However, since we are there, and we are fighting, I find it only best for us to finish what we have started, in contrast to everyone who is "against" the war who says we should get out now.

And do what? Abandon the poor people so they can be taken over by Iran or succumb into Civil War?

To make this all completely clear, again: No, I do not support us being in this war. Yes, I think we should stay until we finish what we started. No, I do not support the loss of life that our country is providing to try and save those of another country farther off. Yes, if I word it like that it sounds harsh but let's get real and consider our own nation about anyone else's. And, finally, No, I do not think the cost of war overall is worth the cause of us being in Iraq in the first place.

I basically feel the same way. sure we fucked up going in, but to just pull out because we fucked up...

We made the mess, we should be the ones to clean it up.

While I have no relatives in the war, I have alot of friends there.

I basically feel the same way. sure we fucked up going in, but to just pull out because we fucked up...

We made the mess, we should be the ones to clean it up.

While I have no relatives in the war, I have alot of friends there.

Yay! Someone who agrees! You are probably one of the first I have met. Do you know where your friends are stationed? I'm simply curious.

But, yeah, we definatly need to clean up our messes! The United States seems to have that problem...look in the past...

I was watching the Daily Show the other day and Jon Stewart went through our whole connections on what we've done wrong (in this case it was selling other countries Weapons that then turned on us and tried to use them against us) and it was a real eye opener. I never realized how what we've done so many yeras ago came back and bit us on the ass. Hard.

I seriously doubt most people in 1940 truly believed that Germany or Japan didn't post a threat to the United States...even if they talked isolationist, the fear was still there. That's a lot different from today, when there isn't a huge threat looming on the horizon that will motivate people in to serving for the country.

If you want to end the Iraq war, try to implement a draft.

It's interesting how many people think the US can do anything to sway Iraq's civil war in any way. This thing's been brewing since before any of us were alive, and Bush had to go and be a dumbass and open the flood gates despite all warnings not to do that and it's turned into a situation beyond anyone's control. The only way to make sure this thing ends as fast as possible now is to just pull out and urge countries to stay out and not be the dumbass that we were.

Although not like as a country we'll ever learn to not be a dumbass... we had Vietnam to show what was going to happen here and we had one term with Bush and something about him being just as bad but without any accountability made people want to vote him back into office.

Whay? Did they stop selliing draft beer? That would be cause enough for debate.

[QUOTE=Remote Observer;12994433]They don't have to bring it back. The mechanism is already in place. All the Pentagon has to do is use it.

I know this was a post from a while back, but after reading through the converstaion again, I felt the need to reply. Again, if I already had.

First off, when I say "bring it back" I mean enforce it. Of course it is already here, it's a matter of re-enforcing it to the national level

The age groups are already part of the mechanism. They take ages 19 to 25 first, then 18 to 19, then if they can't get enough people, they go 26 to 30.

Yes, I am well aware of the age group. What it comes down to in the end, is if they were to bring it back into the enforcing level, they would encounter modern day problems which can conflict with the draft. Say, as currently they are allowing many older men to enter their army. Why? Because of the shortage. Would they be allowed ethically to raise the age of the draft (or lower it) to encompass more citizens?

That has nothing to do with it.

Sure it does. It's an ethical problem.

Only males register for Selective Service according to law. You would have to change the law.

Of course they would have to change the law. This is the point of this debate

They don't have any requirement for immigrants to go first. Please educate yourself.

This is an ethical question as to whether these changes could be made I have no need to educate myself. I am well aware of the current laws surrounding the draft, and I know they have no requirements. You should, however, re-read the question and figure out that I was no questioning the current laws of the draft but future ones. Please. Educate yourself in comprehension.

I have no need to respond to the rest of your response, seeing as it will all be the same thing. I am not ignorant, you are just misunderstanding, and quite quick to judge I might add. That could get you into quite a bit of trouble along the way

Did I mention anything about fighting or the mechanisms of war in my positive points of the draft?

Wouldn't you think the Cons would outwigh the Pros however?

Conscription is unconstitutional. Isn't there a constitutional amendment prohibiting slavery?

I'm all for bringing back the draft. I want an excuse to put some bricks through some windows.

I think they issue grenades to military personnel.

To those who say there would be riots, etc. if the draft was brought back: Do you really believe that? People these days are incredibly dull, stupid, and complacent. They are also extremely susceptible to government propaganda. So long as the sheeple get their bread and circuses, and so long as it's being done in the name of "fighting terrorism," hardly anyone (with the exception of a few people) will care if the draft is brought back.

Conscription is unconstitutional. Isn't there a constitutional amendment prohibiting slavery?

It's not slavery. You get paid for your service.
I think conscription, when used, is thought of as the same way as taxes: it is a price you pay for whatever services your government offers you.

To those who say there would be riots, etc. if the draft was brought back: Do you really believe that? People these days are incredibly dull, stupid, and complacent. They are also extremely susceptible to government propaganda. So long as the sheeple get their bread and circuses, and so long as it's being done in the name of "fighting terrorism," hardly anyone (with the exception of a few people) will care if the draft is brought back.

This post endorsed by the United Non-Conformist Conformers Pessimism Division.

I'm not really sure if it could legally be brought back or not.

I thought I read once that some law forbidding the draft had been passed at one point, but I could be wrong.


Anyways, like everyone else has pointed out, technically they could bring it back, but it would be political suicide.


Me, I'm all for the draft so long as we send everyone 18-60 who makes over $500,000 a year, the political right and snot nosed celebrities like Paris Hilton who are only rich because of their parents.

The center-Statist parties will bring the Draft back when they start their War on Iran (besides continuing their War on Iraq). Both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party plan to do this. On the Democrat side, John Edwards is overtly running on reinstating the Draft (as is Chris Dodd; though the likes of Obama and Hillary are far wiser than the socialists in the party and do a much better job of hiding their awful ideas from the people). On the Republican side, Rudy Giuliani in particular can't wait to turn America into a police state and it is almost certain that they intend to also bring back military slavery. There is only 1 major candidate against the Draft and anybody paying attention should be able to figure out who it is (if not, here's a hint: he's a former doctor).

Whether or not they can successfully reinstate slavery is another question entirely. Most likely, the president that does it would be Sick Willie's wife. What this means is that the anti-war movement and the anti-draft movement are going to be right-wing and will probably lead to an even stronger libertarian movement. Of course, government worshippers (such as most politicians) think of the government as God on Earth (which is why the left is so devoutly atheist because you can't worship the God in Heaven if you worship the one in DC, London, Paris, Berlin, Rome, or wherever else) and so they believe that the people will just voluntarily go into slavery. However, I don't think it will work very good, as there will be a massive resistance movement (hopefully this movement recognizes that self-defense is a good thing and doesn't become a bunch of pushovers like leftist anti-war movements of the past have been).

Whether or not they can successfully reinstate slavery is another question entirely. Most likely, the president that does it would be Sick Willie's wife. .

You really ought to put that crack pipe away.

Considering that approval of the Iraq war is virtually non-existant, except among Neo-Con supporters who are completely unable to smell political change, and even if they did, they only care about furthering thier own agenda.
In any event, unless I'm mistaken, it would require an act of Congress to re-instate the Draft, and I highly doubt that a Democratic controlled Congress and a (Future) Democratic President are going to do any such thing.

The center-Statist parties will bring the Draft back when they start their War on Iran (besides continuing their War on Iraq). Both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party plan to do this. On the Democrat side, John Edwards is overtly running on reinstating the Draft (as is Chris Dodd; though the likes of Obama and Hillary are far wiser than the socialists in the party and do a much better job of hiding their awful ideas from the people). On the Republican side, Rudy Giuliani in particular can't wait to turn America into a police state and it is almost certain that they intend to also bring back military slavery. There is only 1 major candidate against the Draft and anybody paying attention should be able to figure out who it is (if not, here's a hint: he's a former doctor).

(At least) two, actually. Don't forget the other party's equivalent. Hint: He filibustered the draft (or was it the war itself?) back in the Vietnam War Era

I don't know about you Americans, but if my government over here brought some kind of draft in me and my leftist buddies would molotov the closest government building...

I don't know about you Americans, but if my government over here brought some kind of draft in me and my leftist buddies would molotov the closest government building...


Well, it took the English from 1066, all the way until Cromwell to throw out the bum in charge when they didnt like the nonsense that leader was pulling.
America is still a young nation, give us a few decades.

However, if an attempt at a draft were made, I think you'd see riots at the very least.
See, people over here are still a little bitter over Vietnam, when they had a draft. Look how that went for us.

Im a couple years too old to be drafted, but if I were, I would likely refuse to go.
Violently, if need be.

It's not slavery. You get paid for your service.
I think conscription, when used, is thought of as the same way as taxes: it is a price you pay for whatever services your government offers you.

Slaves were paid in the antebellum South, too. They were paid with housing (albeit rudimentary) and food. Conscription is slavery no matter which way you cut it; it's involuntary servitude.

Well, it took the English from 1066, all the way until Cromwell to throw out the bum in charge when they didnt like the nonsense that leader was pulling.
America is still a young nation, give us a few decades.

However, if an attempt at a draft were made, I think you'd see riots at the very least.
See, people over here are still a little bitter over Vietnam, when they had a draft. Look how that went for us.

Im a couple years too old to be drafted, but if I were, I would likely refuse to go.
Violently, if need be.
Well a draft would only come into force if the US got into a war (probably with Iran) and needed the troops, and in that case opposing the draft would be the same as opposing a(presumably unilateralist/aggressive) war, and then sooner or later the war ambitions of the US leadership would outrun their available resources.

I actually don't oppose the concept of national service, although my views lean to the idea of voluntary duty as a militia in your local community or in community policing. I like national service when it's actually 'national' service, at the moment the US wars are conquests for private wealth and corporations.

I wouldn't riot. I would have a conscription conniption. Side effects would include uncontrolled vomitting on anyone actually trying to make go to the middle east, tourettes like symptoms of high volume and feces throwing.

Well a draft would only come into force if the US got into a war (probably with Iran) and needed the troops, and in that case opposing the draft would be the same as opposing a(presumably unilateralist/aggressive) war, and then sooner or later the war ambitions of the US leadership would outrun their available resources.

Actually, were ARE in a war, and we DO need the troops. This is why the military has relaxed its policies about who can and cannot volunteer.
More importantly, this is why the government continues to hire mercenary companies like Blackwater, USA.

If we had sufficient numbers of soldiers, there would be no need to contract companies like them.

here's a silly idea so no flaming please:
all mexican illeagals must serve 5 years in the US military to become US citizens along with their families who will work ununionised in the arms industries. that should give bush 500,000 bodies to use

If draft is re instituted I have two words:
Steve Urkel

I make enough to pay for a trainer and all without the need for all the other bullshit

So what kind of expensive alcoholic beverage did you end up taking to that party?

I ask because it would be important when the draft is re-instated.

I wouldn't riot. I would have a conscription conniption. Side effects would include uncontrolled vomitting on anyone actually trying to make go to the middle east, tourettes like symptoms of high volume and feces throwing.

I can't pass a physical. Win.

Of course they can. Why wouldn't they be able to? It's part of their right as a government to maintain an army. However, while they can do it, it doesn't mean they should. Especially not for this bologna war, or any future wars for Zionists!

Ugh. God. No one, no one at all, wants the draft back. Military commanders least of all. Conscripted soldiers are terrible fighters when compared to volunteer professionals, a fact that history has proven over and over again.

Of course they can. Why wouldn't they be able to? It's part of their right as a government to maintain an army. However, while they can do it, it doesn't mean they should. Especially not for this bologna war, or any future wars for Zionists!
That's assumes that the government owns your life and can expend it however they like.

they can.

and you can receive a notice to report in X (7? days) in less than a week.

all that needs to happen is the congress to vote the draft in.

anyone who registered for selective service (the peacetime draft)
already has their names in the hat.




what you want to do is start NOW
writing things about how you do not like war
and saving copies of them with someone you trust. a relative or religious
leader or....
because come the day when you have to report to the draft board for you
conscientious objection meeting, they aren't going to accept it if you just come that day and say you are against war. they will think it is only that particular war.
you need to develop a 'file' for yourself over time of proof that you are against war.
maybe in the future you will change your mind and go to fight in some war in the far off future.
but today you are against war?
write about it.
and occasionally update it every 6 months or a year with some more writing or something.
i think it might help to get these things in envelopes with post-dates on them.

A draft is not necessary, think about it. There's no need for that many soldiers. As the numbers at your local recruiter decrease, the number of seperated soldiers who get called back to duty increases, and the ones who have stayed are well bribed. There is enough of a threat to keep troops overseas, but not enough to raise our numbers. The military spends a lot of dough to train soldiers, money they could use to better the odds on the battlefield with new equipment. Existing soldiers can be trained for any mission, and rotated to where they are needed. Not only is a draft unreasonable, it's not cost-effective.

That's assumes that the government owns your life and can expend it however they like.

Unfortunately, it does, especially in such a state as your kind advocate.

Conscription is unconstitutional. Isn't there a constitutional amendment prohibiting slavery?

Hahaha clever.

They are also extremely susceptible to government propaganda. So long as the sheeple get their bread and circuses, and so long as it's being done in the name of "fighting terrorism," hardly anyone (with the exception of a few people) will care if the draft is brought back.

True. Government propaganda has made a large impact on the thinking of Americans. However, I think once locals start being drafted to the war, I do believe it will start to click in people's heads. Many people do not have to be excessively smart or have to think for themselves at the case of an ordinary day, once things like this happen, however, they'll snap back to reality. I'm not sure on the riots, but they'll be some protests.

The center-Statist parties will bring the Draft back when they start their War on Iran (besides continuing their War on Iraq). Both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party plan to do this. On the Democrat side, John Edwards is overtly running on reinstating the Draft (as is Chris Dodd; though the likes of Obama and Hillary are far wiser than the socialists in the party and do a much better job of hiding their awful ideas from the people). On the Republican side, Rudy Giuliani in particular can't wait to turn America into a police state and it is almost certain that they intend to also bring back military slavery. There is only 1 major candidate against the Draft and anybody paying attention should be able to figure out who it is (if not, here's a hint: he's a former doctor).

Scary. The things dirty politicians don't tell ya, hm?