NationStates Jolt Archive


Pigeon Dung?

Sel Appa
23-08-2007, 01:40
Pigeon Dung is being named one of the culprits in the Minnesota bridge collapse. No, it's not the state's fault or any human organization that was supposed to inspect it...it was the pigeons. I propose we poison all pigeons because soon, their dung will be fueling house fires.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070822/ap_on_sc/bridge_collapse_pigeons)

ST. PAUL, Minn. - Pounded and strained by heavy traffic and weakened by missing bolts and cracking steel, the failed interstate bridge over the Mississippi River also faced a less obvious enemy: pigeons.

Inspectors began documenting the buildup of pigeon dung on the span near downtown Minneapolis two decades ago. Experts say the corrosive guano deposited all over the Interstate 35W span's framework helped the steel beams rust faster.

Although investigators have yet to identify the cause of the bridge's Aug. 1 collapse, which killed at least 13 people and injured about 100, the pigeon problem is one of many factors that dogged the structure.

"There is a coating of pigeon dung on steel with nest and heavy buildup on the inside hollow box sections," inspectors wrote in a 1987-1989 report.

In 1996, screens were installed over openings in the bridge's beams to keep pigeons from nesting there, but that didn't prevent the building of droppings elsewhere.

Pigeon droppings contain ammonia and acids, said chemist Neal Langerman, an officer with the health and safety division of the American Chemical Society. If the dung isn't washed away, it dries out and turns into a concentrated salt. When water gets in and combines with the salt and ammonia, it creates small electrochemical reactions that rust the steel underneath.

"Every time you get a little bit of moisture there, you wind up having a little bit of electrochemistry occurring and you wind up with corrosion," said Langerman. "Over a long term, it might in fact cause structural weaknesses."

Langerman emphasized that he wasn't saying pigeon dung factored into the collapse of the 40-year-old bridge. "Let's let the highway transportation and safety people do their job," he said.

The problem is familiar to bridge inspectors everywhere.

The Colorado Department of Transportation spent so much time cleaning pigeon manure off bridges that it is embarking on a two-year research project looking for ways to keep pigeons away from its spans.

"It can be damaging to our structures because it's slightly acidic and it has other compounds in it that can dissolve especially things like concrete," said Patricia Martinek, the agency's environmental research manager.

Pigeon guano isn't just a danger to the bridges.

In the Denver area, the Colorado DOT pays outside environmental specialists to clean bridges wearing full biohazard suits with respirators because of heightened fears about bird flu and other diseases, said Rob Haines, who supervises maintenance there.

Keeping pigeons off bridges usually requires a multi-pronged strategy that can include netting to block holes and surfaces, spikes to keep them from landing, and sometimes poisoning, shooting or trapping the birds, said John Hart, a Grand Rapids, Minn.-based wildlife biologist with the U.S. Department of Agriculture.

The problem is that pigeons are naturally drawn to bridges and tall buildings since they're descended from cliff-dwellers, said Karen Purcell, who heads Project PigeonWatch at the Cornell Lab of Ornithology. Bridges offer shelter from predators and flat surfaces for nesting and roosting.

"It's a nice fit for them," Purcell said.

Meanwhile, the National Transportation Safety Board issued an update on its findings in the collapse Wednesday, saying investigators are looking at whether chemicals used in an automated de-icing system had any corrosive properties.

The state Transportation Department wasn't concerned about the system; in fact, the agency is planning to install a similar system on the replacement bridge, said Khani Sahebjam, a state transportation engineer.

The de-icing elements are inside the concrete deck, Sahebjam said, so he wouldn't expect them to pose a structural problem.

The automated system was triggered by weather conditions and kept the state from having to send crews to spread de-icing chemicals, Sahebjam said.
Jeruselem
23-08-2007, 01:52
So if the new bridge has people with shotfguns running around, we know who they are after.
United Chicken Kleptos
23-08-2007, 01:58
Oh shit!
Sel Appa
23-08-2007, 02:19
Oh shit!

I love NSG! :fluffle:
[NS]Click Stand
23-08-2007, 02:28
Spikes! Spikes!, that is their answer to the pigeon problem(not that there is a problem). Now instead off cleaning up pigeon dung they clean up pigeon corpses.

Overall I may not be an engineer but we should probably try to make bridges strong enough to last against this type of attack.
Nefundland
23-08-2007, 02:31
*pokes head out of bunker.*

pigeons you say? it's da birds all over again.

Get avay from my house ya fethery slimeball!!

*BAM*
Saige Dragon
23-08-2007, 02:53
The Birds is coming!

http://www.best-horror-movies.com/image-files/the-birds-attack.jpg
Katganistan
23-08-2007, 03:41
Actually, you'd be amazed at how corrosive pigeon poo is. Trust me. My friend ran the observatory at my college, and one Saturday we all went there with masks, rubber gloves, buckets and brushes to clean up the track for the dome, the dome itself inside and out. NASTY stuff.
Lunatic Goofballs
23-08-2007, 09:44
Of course we could have helped curb the pigeon population by re-introducing natural predators to replace the ones that used to kill pigeons. The peregrine falcon for instance. In fact, doesn't New York City now provide nesting areas in skyscrapers for falcons in order to encourage them to hunt city pigeons?
Cameroi
23-08-2007, 10:03
the oil and automotive industries could be made to have to pay for their own rights of way, just like every other mode of transportation does. and those more environmentally harmonious could receive greater favor of policy.

while i do have sympathy for the poor bastards who were on the damd thing when it collapsed, and share the ire at poltical machinations that short chainge maintainece in favor of sexier new projects to curry voter favor, i have none for what i see as being at the very root of the problem this incident is a clear and unambiguous symptom of.

as for pigeon dung, people have been successfully composting it for millinea, even building places for them to nest designed specificly to collect it.

=^^=
.../\...
German Nightmare
23-08-2007, 11:04
So they admit that they haven't cleaned the bridge when they should have and now complain about the consequences?
The Infinite Dunes
23-08-2007, 12:07
I thought it was for reasons like this that they painted bridges...
Saige Dragon
23-08-2007, 14:13
I thought it was for reasons like this that they painted bridges...

But you forgot, Pigeon shit is the next best paint remover right after brake fluid. It'll remove the skin 'o your teeth if your not careful.;)
The Infinite Dunes
23-08-2007, 15:08
But you forgot, Pigeon shit is the next best paint remover right after brake fluid. It'll remove the skin 'o your teeth if your not careful.;)Get paint that is resistant to acid and electrolysis, and not your bog standard emulsion. Or give it a coat of plastic, with those spikey things to stop birds landing on it and scratching the plastic off.
Yaltabaoth
23-08-2007, 15:36
But you forgot, Pigeon shit is the next best paint remover right after brake fluid. It'll remove the skin 'o your teeth if your not careful.;)

I'll be careful not to get pigeon shit on my teeth in future then.

Of course, the damage already caused to my teeth from brushing with the stuff, that's my real concern...
Dalmatia Cisalpina
23-08-2007, 16:02
Get paint that is resistant to acid and electrolysis, and not your bog standard emulsion. Or give it a coat of plastic, with those spikey things to stop birds landing on it and scratching the plastic off.

A lot of paint today that is resistant to acid and electrolysis also contains chromates, which, if the EPA hasn't outright banned yet, will ban in the next year or two due to health concerns. What happened in Minneapolis is the culmination of a lot of mistakes. Failure to clean and maintain the bridge is at the top of my list. However, what about funding research to develop better building materials and better coatings? It seems to me there should be more money invested there.

Just my $0.02. (I work in a research lab -- of course I want to see more money for projects!)
Saige Dragon
23-08-2007, 20:52
I'd simply just bring back lead based paint. If we can't scare 'em off, we'll kill 'em.
Johnny B Goode
23-08-2007, 20:55
Pigeon Dung is being named one of the culprits in the Minnesota bridge collapse. No, it's not the state's fault or any human organization that was supposed to inspect it...it was the pigeons. I propose we poison all pigeons because soon, their dung will be fueling house fires.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070822/ap_on_sc/bridge_collapse_pigeons)

I, for one, welcome our new continuously-shitting overlords.
South Lorenya
23-08-2007, 20:57
The #1 problem with US bridges is that they spend time sentencing innocent people to death when they could be fixing those about to collapse.
The Earthy Crunchies
23-08-2007, 20:57
Maybe Alka Seltzer would work - like it does with Seagulls....
Saige Dragon
23-08-2007, 21:07
Maybe Alka Seltzer would work - like it does with Seagulls....

Winner.
Lunatic Goofballs
23-08-2007, 21:08
At least we're getting the real poop on dung. :)
Luporum
23-08-2007, 21:16
The #1 problem with US bridges is that they spend time sentencing innocent people to death when they could be fixing those about to collapse.

That's what we get for electing suspension bridges. :(
Entropic Creation
24-08-2007, 06:57
A lot of city governments and building management firms have found that those little spikes really don't do much. There is a great way I know of to keep pigeons away from areas that is very effective.

Methyl Anthranilate is a substance that is typically used as a flavoring agent for grape sodas and such. It also greatly irritates the olfactory senses of birds so it can be used as a bird repellent. This is typically sprayed on fruit crops to keep birds away when as it ripens but does not taint the fruit.

Since you are not concerned with adding a slight taste to fruit, you can encapsulate it for slow release over a long timespan and spray it in areas you want to keep bird free. It is ecologically harmless (just irritates birds that get too close) and is very cheap. Spray the bridges or wherever once a year and problem solved.

As for why they don't do this already... well if you are old friends with they guy who makes those policy decisions, you get the contract. Otherwise, tough luck.
PedroTheDonkey
24-08-2007, 08:37
A lot of city governments and building management firms have found that those little spikes really don't do much. There is a great way I know of to keep pigeons away from areas that is very effective.

Methyl Anthranilate is a substance that is typically used as a flavoring agent for grape sodas and such. It also greatly irritates the olfactory senses of birds so it can be used as a bird repellent. This is typically sprayed on fruit crops to keep birds away when as it ripens but does not taint the fruit.

Since you are not concerned with adding a slight taste to fruit, you can encapsulate it for slow release over a long timespan and spray it in areas you want to keep bird free. It is ecologically harmless (just irritates birds that get too close) and is very cheap. Spray the bridges or wherever once a year and problem solved.

As for why they don't do this already... well if you are old friends with they guy who makes those policy decisions, you get the contract. Otherwise, tough luck.

Grape flavored bridges....

(H)mmm....

All for it!
Levee en masse
24-08-2007, 11:16
The Birds is coming!

http://www.best-horror-movies.com/image-files/the-birds-attack.jpg

http://www.asofterworld.com/clean/wrong.jpg

when there's no more room in pidgeon hell...

:eek:
Katganistan
24-08-2007, 13:32
Of course we could have helped curb the pigeon population by re-introducing natural predators to replace the ones that used to kill pigeons. The peregrine falcon for instance. In fact, doesn't New York City now provide nesting areas in skyscrapers for falcons in order to encourage them to hunt city pigeons?

Peregrines have always naturally found our skyscrapers to be awesome places to live -- as I remember, they generally would live in cliff faces anyhow. it's only since the saga of Pale Male the red-tail, I think, that anyone's built a raptor-friendly nesting place.
Katganistan
24-08-2007, 13:34
The #1 problem with US bridges is that they spend time sentencing innocent people to death when they could be fixing those about to collapse.

Wow, way to totally link two unconnected things just to get your pet agenda a mention.
Dalmatia Cisalpina
24-08-2007, 14:27
A lot of city governments and building management firms have found that those little spikes really don't do much. There is a great way I know of to keep pigeons away from areas that is very effective.

Methyl Anthranilate is a substance that is typically used as a flavoring agent for grape sodas and such. It also greatly irritates the olfactory senses of birds so it can be used as a bird repellent. This is typically sprayed on fruit crops to keep birds away when as it ripens but does not taint the fruit.

Since you are not concerned with adding a slight taste to fruit, you can encapsulate it for slow release over a long timespan and spray it in areas you want to keep bird free. It is ecologically harmless (just irritates birds that get too close) and is very cheap. Spray the bridges or wherever once a year and problem solved.

As for why they don't do this already... well if you are old friends with they guy who makes those policy decisions, you get the contract. Otherwise, tough luck.

That's a great idea! I wonder what that would do when incorporated in coatings. Perhaps, if it were microencapsulated, we could add it to the paint and net ourselves several years of protection from those before spraying.
Entropic Creation
24-08-2007, 19:41
That's a great idea! I wonder what that would do when incorporated in coatings. Perhaps, if it were microencapsulated, we could add it to the paint and net ourselves several years of protection from those before spraying.

It has to be encapsulated - MA is far too volatile otherwise and would only last a couple days, maybe a week at most. We can keep odors at a steady release for about 2 years. The initial spike only lasts a day or two and isnt very high, then it is a near constant level for 2 years before suddenly disappearing in a matter of a week. That takes serious expertise in controlled release to get that kind of release profile (minor brag).

Obviously this is too much for crop protection though - this particular method was developed to be a very cheap solution to keep insurgents away from munitions piles. In the beginning of the war the roadside bombs were made with mortar rounds that were easily accessible from huge stockpiles - these depots were so big that the manpower needed to effectively guard them was unreasonable.

The solution was Insurgent Be Gone (originally Iraqi Be Gone, but I was drunk when I came up with the name and, upon sober recollection, decided it just wasnt sufficiently politically correct). Take the 3 worst smells the human nose can perceive (need 3 because sometimes a person can lack a receptor and miss one of the chemicals) and encapsulate them for prolonged release. Spray it on a pile and for 2 years nobody could get within 50 feet without uncontrolled vomiting, after which it would suddenly disappear.

Of course when the news broke about missing munitions and such, DoD was all after pushing this... as soon as it was no longer on the front page, political pressure was off, and it was no longer a priority.

That, and we asked for $130 million for it - that includes sourcing, manufacturing, and even application (there were an awful lot of munitions piles scattered all over the country). That was the total cost we asked for and were still feeling guilty about profiting off the war. They turned us down, but still wanted it, so why dont we just turn all our notebooks over to them (for free), and they will use a company they trust (Halliburton) to make and apply it for them... all for a measly fee of $1.2 Billion. (i'm not bitter... honest... well... ok, just a little).