NationStates Jolt Archive

Also, I could just walk through the arches of the Vatican, Or find a religion that requires even less belief than Christianity. This still brings up the problem. If god loves me, why not just let me into heaven anyway? His love is unconditional, correct?

well one could argue that he fixed the problem of damnation himself and that therefore everyone who is fit should make it into heaven. the sticking point is that that is not what the bible says.

everything I know about Mormonism, I learned from South Park (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_About_Mormons)

My pleasure.

Mormonism is a Christian sect that is based on not ONLY the Bible but also on the Book of Mormon, among others.

The Book of Mormon is translated from a record of people who lived in the Americas, who were also personally visited by Jesus Christ.

And yeah, we stay away from Coffee, Tea, Alcoholic drinks and tobacco. :)

my first problem with that statment is they say they are Christian sect. which sect would that be?? that fact is they are not really Christian! they belive in things that no other Christions belive, such as the book of mormon. now you might say that different Christian sects belive in different things. but we all belive in one thing the trinity God three in one. not three different people but the same one! Jesus is God and God is Jesus. I do not try to disrespect all mormons inface many of my friends are mormons, who do think they are christion but in reality they are not,(in my opinon).

thank you

my first problem with that statment is they say they are Christian sect. which sect would that be?? that fact is they are not really Christian! they belive in things that no other Christions belive, such as the book of mormon. now you might say that different Christian sects belive in different things. but we all belive in one thing the trinity God three in one. not three different people but the same one! Jesus is God and God is Jesus. I do not try to disrespect all mormons inface many of my friends are mormons, who do think they are christion but in reality they are not,(in my opinon).

thank you

Except that being a trinitarian is not a requirement to be a Christian. It's the most common form, but that doesn't mean that a unitarian is any less a Christian.

Am I the only one that thinks that being an Atheist to the deathbed, then clearing yourself of sins right before you die is a good idea? I mean, seriously. If there's a loophole to eternal salvation, I'm going to take it. And why Christianity on the death bed? Because it's the most widely practiced, and if you practice any religion, all the other's shun you, so why not the biggest, most influential?

Atheist, until I have 1 day left. And that day's spent repenting in my own mind, like Presbyterians say I can.

i am sworry to say that that is a form of presumption, if you decied well before you die you can go through life in a sinful manner then coverting at the last momnet as planned is indeed sinful there is no loophole. to be saved before you die you must truely be sorry and not planned

It is a necessary condition, by defition of the AND operator. If !B then the whole statement evaluates to false.

Ever write computer code? Go ahead and write a simple program and test it for yourself.

It's what I do for a living so I assure you, making B false will return a false result for the whole statement.

While you are technically right, English and most actual spoken languages don't work that way.

You description only works if it doesn't look this.

Select * from C if (A AND B) Or D, where D is some other set of conditions. You are assuming the last part is true but nothing in what you've quoted actually indications it as so.

You're basically arguing, "I believe it works this way, and I've picked through the Bible ignoring everything that could viewed to the contrary and claimed victory by stating that only one sentence in enormous book matters."

Nonsense. You're correct on the code IF your assumptions are true. They aren't.

You are talking arse.

IF A AND B THEN C

If 'baptism' is a null value, it's status as B or !B is irrelevent. It is junk data.

Then: IF A THEN C

You are assuming that B is necessary for the logic process, but there is really no reason to assume it.

The only way you could realisitically assert the absolute necessity for baptism, would be if you had an extra qualifier... something that either said IF !B THEN !C, IF A AND !B THEN !C... or IFF B THEN C.

Grave, you really should have discussed this bit with your wife before posting. If B is a null value in most cases it would fail the whole statement. !C.

Did anyone else notice that this statement convenient evaluates to Not Cee - Nazi, if it doesn't evaluate to C? NB godwinned. He loses.

You're right. There are verses that categorically make you wrong. John 3:15 categorically states an inclusive definition of what is required for salvation - and baptism isn't on the list.



I'm not. Judging by your perversion of the scripture, neither are you.

Wow, even with your screwed up coding you nailed him so hard he had to pull out the old "you're not Christian so even though I'm wrong I don't have to listen" card. Priceless.

Let's talk about John 3:15.

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

-John 3:15 (KJV)

One must believe in Jesus. And what does Jesus, in whome we believe say?

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
-Mark 16:16 (KJV) (repeated for the sake of completeness)

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
-John 3:5 (KJV)

Those are direct quotes right from Him. So if we believe in Him, then we must BELIEVE Him! How can one say they believe in Jesus when they're so quick to disregard His words, or leave off that inconvenient half of His sentences?

Several people have implied that in Mark 16:16 the meaning is that all that's REALLY necessary is the believing part. I look at that verse and what I see is a warning that you must believe AND be baptized, but if you don't believe, you're lost... Baptism alone isn't enough, it MUST come with belief. Sincere belief. The second half of that verse isn't a pass to not get Baptized, it's a warning that Belief is essential and Baptism alone isn't enough. (I think on that last bit we'd all agree, and yet when it's right there in black and white so many people ascribe a totally different meaning to it.)

Ask yourself this: If Baptism isn't essential, why would Jesus phrase His words that way? Are we saying He's careless? Or that the Scriptures aren't reliable? What's the alternative explanation for the wording here, and are you certain enough about that to risk the salvation of those people who believe you and don't bother to get baptized as a result?


Interesting. So Jesus says both that if you are baptized and don't believe it will not save you and that if you believe (without any requirement for baptism) you will be saved, ALWAYS.

So let's see I'll give several scenarios. Let's see what you claim the outcome will be.

I believe and am not baptized. According to Jesus, I'm always saved if I believe. According to you, I'm not. Whoops.

Do I need to go further?

If I believe and am baptized. Saved according to both.

If I don't believe and am baptized. Not saved according to both.

If I've done neither, not saved according to both.

According to Jesus baptism is not the point. According to you, it's required. Now what did you say?

"If we believe IN HIM, we must believe Him." So even by your own admission we must reject you. See how easy that is?