NationStates Jolt Archive

Am I the only one who finds this slogan to be bullshit? Isn't it stating that freedom is something that has to be earned, rather than guaranteed, like it should?

Or am I missing the patriotic point entirely?

Am I the only one who finds this slogan to be bullshit? Isn't it stating that freedom is something that has to be earned, rather than guaranteed, like it should?

Or am I missing the patriotic point entirely?

If you want to find a patriotic point, look on top of a patriots head.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Pretty much it contradicts the DOI.

Freedom isn't free...

...it costs a buck ninety three.

^^ Damn you!!!

It costs $1.93 *nod*

Yes and no. Yes it should be something that is guaranteed, but with what is going on everywhere else in the world with people trying to destroy our concepts of freedom, it becomes something less than free. That we have to defend our freedoms and sacrifice a little in order for us all to be free, hopefully that makes more sense.

It means that freedom must be defended because there's a lot of power hungry people out there. If we didn't defend our freedom, any crackpot could take it away. Believe me, there's a lot of people who would love to rule everyone with an iron fist.

Am I the only one who finds this slogan to be bullshit?

no

Isn't it stating that freedom is something that has to be earned, rather than guaranteed, like it should?


Yes that's what it states. It's a hollow slogan with no real meaning. People in power hope that if they can sell enough bumper stickers with that slogan on it they can get away with taking your constitutional rights.
Rights are rights because they're free, everybody deserves an honest trial for instance. There isn't anything you should do to deserve that.


Or am I missing the patriotic point entirely?

no.

It doesn't matter whether you think it should be free. All that matters is whether it actually is. History shows it is not.

It means that freedom must be defended because there's a lot of power hungry people out there. If we didn't defend our freedom, any crackpot could take it away. Believe me, there's a lot of people who would love to rule everyone with an iron fist.

Not only defended, but acquired from despotic rule in the first place.

Am I the only one who finds this slogan to be bullshit? Isn't it stating that freedom is something that has to be earned, rather than guaranteed, like it should?

Or am I missing the patriotic point entirely?
It's especially bullshit when said by a person who never saw a moment of combat and is calling for government destroying tax cuts.
If you want to find a patriotic point, look on top of a patriots head.
Nice one. ;)

^^ Damn you!!!

It costs $1.93 *nod*

Bwahaha! :D

It's especially bullshit when said by a person who never saw a moment of combat and is calling for government destroying tax cuts.

Nice one. ;)

Now who would that be?

I thought we'd settled the question of serving in a combat zone as being a requirement for anything...

But since I have had the opportunity to fight the country's foes, I'll call for economy saving tax cuts.

If you want to find a patriotic point, look on top of a patriots head.

I

Nice one. ;)

What IS the origin of that saying anyway? (His only point is on top of his head)

It means that freedom must be defended because there's a lot of power hungry people out there. If we didn't defend our freedom, any crackpot could take it away. Believe me, there's a lot of people who would love to rule everyone with an iron fist.

Haha, I needed a good laugh.

To make my former social studies teacher proud, I think both sides have to be argued though.

"Freedom isn't free" could be taken to mean that, when given "freedom" in the democratic sense of the word, people are given other things as well. You are suddenly met with choices that you must make, as opposed to somebody making them for you.

As somebody "free", you have responsibilities. There is the notorious "At least the trains were on time" theory, demonstrating that a sizeable portion of those who have exprienced both a dictatorial and democratic way of life still believe that they were better off with the former. Decisions that take a considerable amount of time and stress (and usually money) are in the hands of so many "free" people, and sometimes it really MIGHT be better if those decisions were left to the powers that be, instead of given to every lunatic out there.

Am I the only one who finds this slogan to be bullshit? Isn't it stating that freedom is something that has to be earned, rather than guaranteed, like it should?

Or am I missing the patriotic point entirely?

it's not free. it was paid for by the blood, sweat and tears of those who had to first fight for it.

and the Upkeep for Freedom is constant vigilance.

Freedom isn't free...

...it costs a buck ninety three.

^^ Damn you!!!

It costs $1.93 *nod*

haha both got ripped off it cost 5 cents

it's not free. it was paid for by the blood, sweat and tears of those who had to first fight for it.

and the Upkeep for Freedom is constant vigilance.

On a more cynical note, there's the cost of government... All those pols buying votes from us has racked up a pretty big bill.

On a more cynical note, there's the cost of government... All those pols buying votes from us has racked up a pretty big bill.

Who do you think the vigilance is against?

What it really means is that the government that supposedly gives you your freedom is not free. It needs to be defended etc...

On a more cynical note, there's the cost of government... All those pols buying votes from us has racked up a pretty big bill.

except that should be paid for my their campaign funds... and those are fed by the Corps. so actually it's the corperations pandering to... well... us. :p

it's not free. it was paid for by the blood, sweat and tears of those who had to first fight for it.

and the Upkeep for Freedom is constant vigilance.
That's quite ironic considering than Hawaii is an annexed territory.

On a more cynical note, there's the cost of government... All those pols buying votes from us has racked up a pretty big bill.

I officially declare that the true meaning of the phrase. Freedom isn't free, Halliburton bought it.

Who do you think the vigilance is against?
Liberty does require that we guard against the corrupt. The problem is that democracy, or the Republic anyway, makes it very easy for one group of people to stick their hands in the pockets of another group by virtue of outvoting them...

DeToqueville said it best...
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."

And we're there.

That's quite ironic considering than Hawaii is an annexed territory.

not really. we voted to make the attempt to become a state.

of course the Kingdom of Hawaii was overthrown by force. However, living here, I can tell you that had Hawaii remained a Kingdom, life here would be much, much worse.

Those who say freedom have to be earned are those who would be the first to take your freedoms.

I don't know.. Some crazy person once said paranoia pays for your freedom..

I see the actual message behind the bumper sticker as quite important. It underlines how sacrifice must be a part of any struggle for freedom, which, in turn, reminds me of why we're not really at war in Iraq. As soon as the incredibly pandering tax cuts came down (I spent my $300 in Canada), I knew military action was coming and I knew it was going to fail.

We're not being asked to sacrifice anything for the freedom we're supposed to be bringing...at the end of a gun...to a nation we helped destabilize. Does that hurt anyone else's head, or just mine?

If we can't ask the top 10% to cough up their fair share...or even give back the tax breaks this administration has already given them...how can any other sacrifice even be considered...let alone the sacrifice of young lives whose families, on the whole, are not wealthy? Sorry, but until I start seeing some belt tightening where the cats are fattest, I'm never going to believe we're at war.

I'd sign up tomorrow if Iraq had mustered forces and come over here to try and start some shit. I love my country in the abstract and will fight for it when needed. But we started the shit over there, and I think that the kind of freedom that comes from imposition by invasion is absolutely not free. It's insanely expensive in money, lives, and world reputation....and it hasn't and will never produce anything remotely resembling freedom.

Isn't it stating that freedom is something that has to be earned, rather than guaranteed, like it should?
That's probably the intention, although it could be argued that the cost of freedom is the effort needed to protect it, which, of course, most of us have recently missed a few payments on...

All people are born free, and it's up to them to fight for however much freedom they want.

If the next president of the USA declared martial law and all that jazz, and the majority of the country ignored it, they deserve that lack of freedom. IF they were to protest and oppose ( and more cleverly) not vote the dickhead into office- then they have earnt their freedom.

Afterall, democracy is the mechanism for people to choose just how much freedom they deisre. (Can someone can recognise that quote? I'm not sure where I heared it)

Oh, and in the case of coups etc; it's exactly the same! The blood spilt is propotional to the lack of vigilance before the event.

not really. we voted to make the attempt to become a state.

of course the Kingdom of Hawaii was overthrown by force. However, living here, I can tell you that had Hawaii remained a Kingdom, life here would be much, much worse.
Oh. Fair enough.

All people are born free, and it's up to them to fight for however much freedom they want.

If the next president of the USA declared martial law and all that jazz, and the majority of the country ignored it, they deserve that lack of freedom. IF they were to protest and oppose ( and more cleverly) not vote the dickhead into office- then they have earnt their freedom.

Afterall, democracy is the mechanism for people to choose just how much freedom they deisre. (Can someone can recognise that quote? I'm not sure where I heared it)

Oh, and in the case of coups etc; it's exactly the same! The blood spilt is propotional to the lack of vigilance before the event.

What do you mean "the next President"? Whoever we get next is almost certain to be less likely to do so than the one we have now. Barring WWIII, they'd have less excuse. Bush is the one enamored of curtailing freedom or, in the case of habeus corpus, having his cronies claim the right never existed in the first place.

I see the actual message behind the bumper sticker as quite important. It underlines how sacrifice must be a part of any struggle for freedom, which, in turn, reminds me of why we're not really at war in Iraq.

We're not being asked to sacrifice anything for the freedom we're supposed to be bringing...at the end of a gun...to a nation we helped destabilize. Does that hurt anyone else's head, or just mine?

You're not alone.
I agree, the actual meaning of the slogan is true, just because we are guaranteed freedom by our Creator (or whatever the Declaration of Independence says) does not mean we should grow complacent with it. Of course, now it is being used to support a war which is not about freedom and is actually pretty darn free, at least for me. Maybe bumper stickers should say, "Freedom isn't free, but fighting just for the heck of it is pretty cheap."

What do you mean "the next President"? Whoever we get next is almost certain to be less likely to do so than the one we have now. Barring WWIII, they'd have less excuse. Bush is the one enamored of curtailing freedom or, in the case of habeus corpus, having his cronies claim the right never existed in the first place.
I believe that was a hypothetical situation that was simply there to showcase his point.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Pretty much it contradicts the DOI.

The DOI is idealistic, the slogan is pragmatic.

Freedom isn't free...

...it costs a buck ninety three.
That's funny, in England we were told that freedom costs a buck o' five. Must be the exchange rates...:confused:

haha both got ripped off it cost 5 cents
I think you'll find that, on further inspection, the freedom you purchased was really a cheap knock-off. That's what you get for trying to buy abstract concepts at a Mexican flea market.

Now who would that be?

I thought we'd settled the question of serving in a combat zone as being a requirement for anything...

But since I have had the opportunity to fight the country's foes, I'll call for economy saving tax cuts.

I second that call. ;)

There are lots of other slogans you can use the same formula for:
"Justice isn't just."
"Equality isn't equal."
"Liberty isn't liberal."
"Life isn't livable."
"Antidisestablishmentarianism isn't antidisestablishmentarian."
If anyone here is running for an elected office, you are welcome to use any of these but the last, that's mine. I would also caution against using the second to last.

Am I the only one who finds this slogan to be bullshit? Isn't it stating that freedom is something that has to be earned, rather than guaranteed, like it should?

Or am I missing the patriotic point entirely?

Holy crap.

You can't be serious.

If you took a moment to think about it, you might figure it out, but judging by the fact that you posted this I assume you lost that ability long ago.

It's called freedom is earned for a people and defended by those who have it. As in you don't personally have to 'buy' it. People have to stand up for their own rights when others want to take them away - thats where the fighting comes from, and thats what makes it not free.

Have you ever heard of any kind of civil rights movement? Or maybe a revolution? What would you call those, if not fighting for freedom? And if you have to fight for something, how is it free?

it's not free. it was paid for by the blood, sweat and tears of those who had to first fight for it..
Now, I'm not totally up on my history, but I'm pretty sure that there wasn't much in the way of blood during the signing of the Magna Carta.

Now, I'm not totally up on my history, but I'm pretty sure that there wasn't much in the way of blood during the signing of the Magna Carta.

Years of sweat and toil led to that document.

Now, I'm not totally up on my history, but I'm pretty sure that there wasn't much in the way of blood during the signing of the Magna Carta.
There was threat of blood; King John didn't sign it willingly.

I don't think the slogan means you have to donate a liter to get freedom, but that you have to be prepared to defend it, should the need arrive.

Liberty does require that we guard against the corrupt. The problem is that democracy, or the Republic anyway, makes it very easy for one group of people to stick their hands in the pockets of another group by virtue of outvoting them...

Collective action problems don't exist in other political systems?

DeToqueville said it best...
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."

And we're there.

Given that Congress discovered this long ago and the American Republic still stands I have my doubts on the validities of Toqueville's predictions.

Now, I'm not totally up on my history, but I'm pretty sure that there wasn't much in the way of blood during the signing of the Magna Carta.

..which limited the power of the king over the nobles--didn't really do much for freedom in the general sense of the term.

Am I the only one who finds this slogan to be bullshit? Isn't it stating that freedom is something that has to be earned, rather than guaranteed, like it should?

Or am I missing the patriotic point entirely?

the way it is meant is wrong. as in freedom isn't free cuz you have to act like we want you to in order that you may be free. but freedom isn't free n reality either, freedom comes with responsibility, responsibility to your fellow human, not your government.

You aren't the only one who thinks it's bullshit. Freedom is free. It's tyranny which is bought with the coin of freedom, not Freedom which is bought with the coin of War.

If we, at least in this context, equate freedom with certain rights, say civil rights, and those rights require effort to preserve, then I guess you could argue that "Freedom isn't Free".

For instance, I'm not a huge fan of Patriot Act style legislation, and so I should be compelled to be civically active against it.

You aren't the only one who thinks it's bullshit. Freedom is free. It's tyranny which is bought with the coin of freedom, not Freedom which is bought with the coin of War.

Everything grows out of conflict.

Freedom isn't free because then the oil companies would go bankrupt.

Am I the only one who finds this slogan to be bullshit? Isn't it stating that freedom is something that has to be earned, rather than guaranteed, like it should?

Or am I missing the patriotic point entirely?

ohhhh so what you are saying is not that the slogan is bullshit but that those who use this idea to justify our little excursion into iraq are assholes.

freedom ISNT free but iraq isnt the price we need to pay for it.

Freedom WASN'T free for much of the western world, in times past. It is not free now in countries where brutal tyrants rule. If you want to practice freedom there, then you lose your family, property, or life. But even in those circumstances, I'd still choose to be free, and pay the price of losing my life, because it makes freedom all the sweeter.

You aren't the only one who thinks it's bullshit. Freedom is free. It's tyranny which is bought with the coin of freedom, not Freedom which is bought with the coin of War.

Bit unfamiliar with the American Revolution, are you? Or several other cases where people rose up and threw out the bastards for freedom? Take Romania about twenty years ago. That nation's liberation was paid for with the blood of thousands, and now they defend it staunchly.

My father survived the Blitz. He was in Coventry the night it was leveled. He watched every day as the Spitfires and Hurricanes of the RAF rose to meet the Germans coming across the Channel. My grandfather was in the service, and my grandmother kept a pistol so that if the Germans invaded and won they would not be seized.

Freedom is not free. It must be won, defended, nourished, and replenished constantly.

Now who would that be?

I thought we'd settled the question of serving in a combat zone as being a requirement for anything...

But since I have had the opportunity to fight the country's foes, I'll call for economy saving tax cuts.

In my experience, it has been the ones who have felt the fires of combat who have best led the nation. It was those who were born rich, such as Lincoln, Jackson and Bush II, who have ruined the nation.
In my 214 years of existence, it is better to have a leader who is a combat veteran, well read up on current events, has good diplomatic skills, and is in touch with his people. But at last, there are no such people available today.
So we are stuck with scum.

What would you do
If you were asked to give up your dreams for freedom?
What would you do
If asked to make the ultimate sacrifice?

Would you think about all them people
Who gave up everything they had?
Would you think about all them War Vets
And would you start to feel bad?

Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
No, there's a hefty in' fee.
And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
Who will?

What would you do
If someone told you to fight for freedom?
Would you answer the call
Or run away like a little ?
'Cause the only reason that you're here
Is 'cause folks died for you in the past
So maybe now it's your turn
To die kicking some ass

Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
Now there's a hefty in' fee
And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
Who will?

You don't throw in your buck 'o five. Who will?
Oooh buck 'o five
Freedom costs a buck 'o five

Am I the only one who finds this slogan to be bullshit? Isn't it stating that freedom is something that has to be earned, rather than guaranteed, like it should?

Or am I missing the patriotic point entirely?


You miss the point entirely. Freedom is free initially in that we're all born with those inalienable rights. In the real world however said freedoms often times have to be fought for in order to keep them.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure." - Thomas Jefferson

about three fity.

Am I the only one who finds this slogan to be bullshit? Isn't it stating that freedom is something that has to be earned, rather than guaranteed, like it should?

Or am I missing the patriotic point entirely?

In a perfect world Freedom should be guaranteed, however we live in a far from perfect world, and there is always some people who want to take those freedoms away. And then there are those who are charged with protecting our freedom and way of life, with their own lives, hence why freedom is not free.

Am I the only one who finds this slogan to be bullshit? Isn't it stating that freedom is something that has to be earned, rather than guaranteed, like it should?

Or am I missing the patriotic point entirely?

I think that you are missing the point entirely. God created all of us with certain freedoms. We see proof of this by God's favor (i.e. bounty) being enjoyed by Free people to a larger degree than the oppressed. Man thrives best when free so therefore he is meant to live in a free society.

Look at all the oppressive regimes out there and you will find that the people there enjoy less of a bounty than those in liberal democracies.

However, there are those who wish to subvert the natural order and oppress others for their own benefit. These are the folks like Saddam Hussein. In order to secure freedom for ourselves and for our oppressed brothers we must buy this freedom with treasure and blood. This is the price that must be paid to guarantee our own freedom and to secure freedom for oppressed peoples throughout the world.

It is patriotic in the sense that this statement honors those who have been placed in harm's way to secure our freedoms and to help others secure it for themselves in distant lands. It is also patriotic because it acknowledges that America is more than a land it is also an idea. This idea is the pith of Enlightenment philosophy and is the point that all men are created equal and nobody has any divine or other right to oppress others for we are all equal and our liberties can only be curtailed by due process and there are some fundamental liberties that may never be properly curtailed even by due process.

Now I am not saying that America always respected this idea in every action ever taken in foreign or domestic policy but it is still the American idea and all of us can be patriotic about it because this Enlightenment thinking benefitted the whole free world.

I think that you are missing the point entirely. God created all of us with certain freedoms. We see proof of this by God's favor (i.e. bounty) being enjoyed by Free people to a larger degree than the oppressed. Man thrives best when free so therefore he is meant to live in a free society.

If you have to rely on the doings of some ineffable spirit to explain politics something is seriously wrong.

Anyhoo, what freedoms did your God grant us?

If you have to rely on the doings of some ineffable spirit to explain politics something is seriously wrong.

Anyhoo, what freedoms did your God grant us?

So the founding fathers and Enlightenment thinkers were seriously wrong when it comes to politics?

I identify with our founding fathers and respect them. Why don't you? Didn't Mom and Dad tell you they loved you enough as a child or what?

Anyway, God endowed us with intellectual resources that work best in a free environment. When we are free of holy inquisitions, guilds, planned economies, political prisoner camps, purges, and all that crap, it is amazing what we are able to accomplish.

I would be remiss if I also did not point out that war has also been one heck of an impetus for human creativity and intellectual achievement but that is tangential to your question.

We are created in such a way that liberty becomes a catalyst for amazing accomplishments.

You miss the point entirely. Freedom is free initially in that we're all born with those inalienable rights. In the real world however said freedoms often times have to be fought for in order to keep them.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure." - Thomas Jefferson

Exactly. However, unlike the US government would have its people believe, the ones who are taking our freedoms are not the terrorists, it is the people we elect to take them from us.

your not free unless you have the money.so to freedom is bullshit.:mp5:

your not free unless you have the money.so to freedom is bullshit.:mp5:

Oh come on now. Wealth is acquired because we have property rights. Property rights are an element of freedom.

So the founding fathers and Enlightenment thinkers were seriously wrong when it comes to politics?

When it came to using God to back up their rationalist position, yes.

I identify with our founding fathers and respect them. Why don't you?

Why should I identify with some upstart colonials on the other side of the globe?

Anyway, God endowed us with intellectual resources that work best in a free environment. When we are free of holy inquisitions, guilds, planned economies, political prisoner camps, purges, and all that crap, it is amazing what we are able to accomplish.

We are created in such a way that liberty becomes a catalyst for amazing accomplishments.

You're doing it again: dragging your spiritual beliefs into politics.