NationStates Jolt Archive

Critics are accusing President Vladimir Putin's government of a Soviet-style rewriting of Russian history with a series of new "patriotic" textbooks to be unveiled in the new school year.

New laws passed this summer have given the government sweeping powers over which textbooks will be used in schools. Teachers and other critics have voiced concerns that this will allow the government to force the use of a single, approved book in each subject - essentially a return to Soviet practice.

Mr Putin has complained that the negative view of the Soviet past in current history textbooks is down to the fact that the authors received foreign grants to write them.

Now, the Kremlin claims it wants to change that situation and a recommissioning of Russia's history textbooks is under way. A handbook for teachers, on the basis of which a future textbook for students could be written, is called The Modern History of Russia, 1945-2006. Only one of the authors is a professional historian. The book calls Joseph Stalin a "contradictory" figure, and states that while some people consider him evil, others recognise him as a "hero" for his role in the Great Patriotic War (the Second World War) and his territorial expansion.

"Learning history should make people feel part of the nation, but it depends on how it's done," said one history teacher from Moscow. "If the idea is to hide everything that was bad and only speak of strength and military victories, I'm not sure that this is the best way to create that kind of feeling."

The law seems to have come from a meeting Mr Putin held with teachers when he lamented the state of history teaching in the country, saying that both society and teachers were "confused". He called for a more patriotic approach to the subject.

Officially, little attention has been paid to the darker aspects of Russia's Soviet past, such as the Stalinist purges or the deportation in appalling conditions of 3 million of its own citizens during the Second World War, with the focus instead on the strength of Stalin's Soviet Union and the victory over Germany.

On 5 August, the Orthodox Church held a ceremony to mark 70 years since the start of Stalin's "Great Purge", but no government officials attended. Mr. Putin said that while 1937 shouldn't be forgotten, other countries had behaved far worse, making references to Hiroshima and the Vietnam War. "We should not allow anyone else to make us feel guilty. Let them think about themselves," he said.

Vladislav Golovanov, a history teacher from Yakutsk in Siberia, told Putin at the meeting that Russia's history should help the country to be unified. The state should return to the teaching of history, he said, and ensure that it is used to instil a sense of patriotism and pride. "Our history should not be about self-flagellation."

"In the official state view of history, the main event of the twentieth century is the victory in the Second World War," said Boris Dubin, an expert at the Levada Centre think tank and polling agency. "The Holocaust is hardly taught at all in Russia, nor is the history of the gulag system. The rehabilitation of Stalin is connected to the emphasis on the war victory."

The textbook's final chapter covers Mr Putin's rule. It describes the Yukos affair as a message from government to big business: "Obey the law, pay your taxes, and don't attempt to rise above the state." The message was heard, says the book. This or similar books could soon be the only option Russian history teachers have for use in the classroom.


Source (http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2878775.ece)

This is in addition to military excises with China, new long-range bomber patrols, sending ships to the North Pole, increasing the defense budget, and building more military planes. It sure does seem that Russia is getting more assertive.

Source (http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2878775.ece)

This is in addition to military excises with China, new long-range bomber patrols, sending ships to the North Pole, increasing the defense budget, and building more military planes. It sure does seem that Russia is getting more assertive.

Let them wave their dicks around. As long as they don't poke us with it we shouldn't worry about it.

Putin is my hero, hopefully he will bring back the USSR:) As he said it was the greatest catastrophe ever to befall humanity that it fell.

Bring back Lenin to the classroom!

The USSR was a terrible place to live if you believe American propaganda, but the UN files show a completely different story, sure it was different than we in the West are used to, but it was a different attitude and culture.

Putin is my hero

For whitewashing Stalin?

Putin is my hero, hopefully he will bring back the USSR:)

I don't think he is interesting in bringing back the USSR. I think he would rather have it all to himself.

Putin is my hero, hopefully he will bring back the USSR:) As he said it was the greatest catastrophe ever to befall humanity that it fell.

Bring back Lenin to the classroom!

The USSR was a terrible place to live if you believe American propaganda, but the UN files show a completely different story, sure it was different than we in the West are used to, but it was a different attitude and culture.
And we have more evidence that you have spent too much time sniffing dry erase markers.

Millions of people risked their lives trying to escape to the west. I don't think the same was the case for people wanting to go to the east.

Why did the USSR build the Berlin Wall again?:rolleyes:

I would like to know how they portray Gorbachev.

Overall this sounds like any other countries way with textbooks. I have yet to see one bad thing said about the A-bomb droppings in WWII in textbooks we used to read.

Sorry but I'd say that the Russian people don't like how capitalism worked out for them.

From which it does not follow that what preceded was good.

And we have more evidence that you have spent too much time sniffing dry erase markers.

Millions of people risked their lives trying to escape to the west. I don't think the same was the case for people wanting to go to the east.

Why did the USSR build the Berlin Wall again?:rolleyes:

Sorry but I'd say that the Russian people don't like how capitalism worked out for them.

Click Stand;12984462']I would like to know how they portray Gorbachev.

Traitor.

Click Stand;12984462']I would like to know how they portray Gorbachev.

Overall this sounds like any other countries way with textbooks. I have yet to see one bad thing said about the A-bomb droppings in WWII in textbooks we used to read.

Really? In mine they present both sides.

As he said it was the greatest catastrophe ever to befall humanity that it fell.



Bombast and polemics, anyone?

Sounds like a bunch of nationalist tripe, coming from a common nationalist.

Click Stand;12984462']
Overall this sounds like any other countries way with textbooks. I have yet to see one bad thing said about the A-bomb droppings in WWII in textbooks we used to read.

Quite. No history textbook I've ever read has done a good job of getting the details right.
And for some reason Russia does seem to get left out quite a bit. My World History textbook (and this is college level, mind you) gives Waterloo a whole section, but doesnt even mention Borodino. They give Ivan IV a paragraph (while talking about the Ottoman Empire), specifically to talk about him beating his son to death, no mention of Russia being the fastest growing nation in the world, or Kazan.
Oh, and the Crimean War was a 'brief conflict in Eastern Europe involving Russia, France and Britain.' I laughed at that one. Fourtunatly so did the history professor. Apparently the textbook is standard for the college.
*shrug*
I guess all the history books we get are written from the British perspective by people who grew up in the Cold War era. Neither are going to say much thats good about Russia in my experience.

I don't think he is interesting in bringing back the USSR. I think he would rather have it all to himself.

Tsar/Czar Putin?

For whitewashing Stalin?

He/she really has gone off the deep end.

Sorry but I'd say that the Russian people don't like how capitalism worked out for them.

If you didn't notice pretty much all of their institutions don't work out too well, mainly due to self propagating corruption or power hungry leaders.

Traitor.

You know, in order for [NS]Click Stand to be a traitor he had to be part of the soviet hierachy or a stalinist group...

I'd also like to know how they treat Gorbachev, considering the people who plotted against him are doing quite well.

Tsar/Czar Putin?

If he could crown himself he would.

Tsar/Czar Putin?

I wouldn't be surprised if Putin were to legitimize his rule in the ancient institutions of the Czarist system. The Russian people overwhelmingly desire a strongman to lead their country, and if Vladimir were to offer them the alternative, they might just take it.

Well at least those dirty pinkos haven't started teaching creationism.

I wouldn't be surprised if Putin were to legitimize his rule in the ancient institutions of the Czarist system. The Russian people overwhelmingly desire a strongman to lead their country, and if Vladimir were to offer them the alternative, they might just take it.

The Putin Dynasty? Just doesnt have the same ring to it as 'Romanov'.

Sorry but I'd say that the Russian people don't like how capitalism worked out for them.
I'd say that's pretty likely, but that doesn't mean the USSR was great. I think the millions who starved to death due to Stalin's agricultural policies would have agreed. But I'm sure you'll find a way to explain that away, "It never happened, it was western propaganda, blah blah blah"

Traitor.
I'm the first to acknowledge that the Russians most likely aren't too pleased with what capitalism has brought them. But what makes you an expert on what the Russians think all of a sudden?

If he could crown himself he would.
Heh, get a load of his new presidential jet. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=433616) Very Tsarist.

Well at least those dirty pinkos haven't started teaching creationism.

I always say to have them teach both and have the student decide.

Putin is my hero, hopefully he will bring back the USSR:) As he said it was the greatest catastrophe ever to befall humanity that it fell.

Bring back Lenin to the classroom!

The USSR was a terrible place to live if you believe American propaganda, but the UN files show a completely different story, sure it was different than we in the West are used to, but it was a different attitude and culture.

"Freedom has many difficulties, and democracy is not perfect. But we have never had to put a wall up to keep our people in—to prevent them from leaving us."-John F. Kennedy, Berlin, West Germany,1961

America just legalized warantless wiretaps...

America just legalized warantless wiretaps...

And if you don't like the country you have the ability to leave without fearing you will be shot. The same cannot be said for Soviet Russia and the states under it's control.

Really? In mine they present both sides.

Did it do that for most things? If so then you had much better text books, I had to learn about the other side of things from the internet and one history teacher who actually knew what he was talking about.

The teachers should decide what text books are in the curriculum and not the government. I think educators know far more about educating than some
government officials.

I agree totally that educators should decide. 100%. Government officials should have some say in the matter, but it should mostly be teachers.

Oh great, more identitarianism. The only one who will win from this will be the state.

You probably should research how hated people like Gorbachev and Yeltsin are, the Russian people know they sold the country down the capitalist toilet and let the West economically gang rape the Eastern bloc to pay their debt. The Russian people have a great sense of nostalgia and Putin obviously embodies the great Soviet times, when everyone had a sense of direction in life, a great purpose, Putin has cracked down on and sometimes killed (good on him for that) the rich oligarchs trying to destroy Russia to buy more BMW's. 'Freedom' is a ridiculous term and is basically a free-for-all where the winners get rich and the losers poor (or in Yeltsins Russia, dead), the state provides a sense of stability and routine.

Oh great, more identitarianism. The only one who will win from this will be the state.

That's a good thing.

-snip-
Did you watch that documentary (http://www.astateofmind.co.uk/) on ABC late last night? You would have enjoyed that.

Did you watch that documentary (http://www.astateofmind.co.uk/) on ABC late last night? You would have enjoyed that.

I am not so sure but I believe that was on SBS a few months, unless it was something else, but it sounds like what I remember.

I knew Russia was going Stalinist again ever since Bush saw Putin's soul. This does not surprise me. It dismays me, but does not surprise me.

A

Why did the USSR build the Berlin Wall again?:rolleyes:

Erm, the East German government built that. And while, yes, they were more or less a USSR puppet, the USSR had very little at all to do with the decision about building the wall. That was Ulbricht's brain child.

You probably should research how hated people like Gorbachev and Yeltsin are, the Russian people know they sold the country down the capitalist toilet and let the West economically gang rape the Eastern bloc to pay their debt. The Russian people have a great sense of nostalgia and Putin obviously embodies the great Soviet times, when everyone had a sense of direction in life, a great purpose, Putin has cracked down on and sometimes killed (good on him for that) the rich oligarchs trying to destroy Russia to buy more BMW's. 'Freedom' is a ridiculous term and is basically a free-for-all where the winners get rich and the losers poor (or in Yeltsins Russia, dead), the state provides a sense of stability and routine.

And precisely who gave you the right to impose your will on me by force of arms for the sake of 'the state'?

I knew Russia was going Stalinist again ever since Bush saw Putin's soul. This does not surprise me. It dismays me, but does not surprise me.

wtf

wtf

From the BBC:Bush says his partnership with Putin is based on trust ... I was asked why and I said: "I have looked him in the eye and seen his soul. .
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2951502.stm

Putin is my hero, hopefully he will bring back the USSR:) As he said it was the greatest catastrophe ever to befall humanity that it fell.

Bring back Lenin to the classroom!

The USSR was a terrible place to live if you believe American propaganda, but the UN files show a completely different story, sure it was different than we in the West are used to, but it was a different attitude and culture.

I lived there, and it was not too nice (especcially for occupied countries). Now is better.

The article says about the new history book:

The book calls Joseph Stalin a "contradictory" figure, and states that while some people consider him evil, others recognise him as a "hero" for his role in the Great Patriotic War (the Second World War) and his territorial expansion.

This is hardly a firm declaration in favour of Stalinism. In fact, I think it is quite a fair image, seeing as Stalin certainly is a contradictory figure in modern historiography. Also, there are still quite a few people, both within Russia and without, who think that Stalin was a hero. The book is merely reflecting a division in historical interpretations that has yet to be fully resolved.

This is hardly a firm declaration in favour of Stalinism. In fact, I think it is quite a fair image, seeing as Stalin certainly is a contradictory figure in modern historiography. Also, there are still quite a few people, both within Russia and without, who think that Stalin was a hero. The book is merely reflecting a division in historical interpretations that has yet to be fully resolved.
so....not mentioning that he's responsible for the deaths of some 20 million + Russians is 'fair'?

The article says about the new history book:



This is hardly a firm declaration in favour of Stalinism. In fact, I think it is quite a fair image, seeing as Stalin certainly is a contradictory figure in modern historiography. Also, there are still quite a few people, both within Russia and without, who think that Stalin was a hero. The book is merely reflecting a division in historical interpretations that has yet to be fully resolved.

That is possible. Though without the actual text it is hard to say.

The devil is, as they say, in the details.

"2. WHAT DO WE OWE OUR GOVERNMENT?

"The good citizen owes a debt of gratitude to his government, which protects and serves him. How can this debt be paid--this gratitude shown? There are many ways. Above all, the young citizen should so prepare himself for adult citizenship that he can intelligently and honestly take his part in the complex life of today. He can stand ready for such public service as he is able to give. What do we owe our government? Again, let us summarize:

"We Owe It Loyalty

"No institution can exist for long unless the members who compose it are loyal to its ideal sand to its leaders. Loyalty means good-will toward our government; it means standing back of its ideals and purposes. Loyalty means respect for our government; it means readiness to serve, and if need be, to defend it.

"No government is perfect; but imperfections and flaws can be corrected by orderly methods. Just and fair criticisms are always welcomed by the conscientious government official, whether he be the village marshal, the state legislator, or the President of the United States. It is constructive criticism that will improve our government, not destructive criticism!

"In a democracy, theoretically the will of the majority becomes the law. The candidate who gets the highest number of votes is elected to office. Loyalty means standing back of our worthy leaders whether we voted for them or not. It means standing back of them whether they be Democrats, Socialists, or Republicans; whether they be Jews, Protestants, or Catholics.

...

"We Owe It Obedience

"Our government and its officials must be respected; and its laws must be obeyed if we are to have an orderly community life. We cannot expect our government to serve us properly if we disrespect its laws. Only through obedience to just laws can we know freedom. Only through obedience to the laws can we live with our fellow-men.

"The good citizen has real reverence for law and order. He obeys the laws, not because he fears punishment, but because he respects authority. When he salutes the flag of the Untied States and gives the Flag Salute, when he repeats the American Creed, when he sings America, America the Beautiful, or the Star-Spangled Banner, he does not repeat mere words. Behind the words he fells the spirit of his country and a reverence for its achievements through law. Let us show that reverence for the law which Abraham Lincoln sought, when he said: 'Let reverence for the laws be breathed by every American mother to the lisping babe that prattles on her lap; let it be taught in schools, in seminaries, and in colleges; let it be written in primers, spelling books, and almanacs; let it be preached from the pulpit, proclaimed in legislative halls, and enforced in courts of justice. Let it become the political religion of the nation.'

"As citizens of the Untied States of America, reverence for the law will truly assure us Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness!"

--- Our Civic Life and Progress by Emil F. Faith and Richard G. Browne, Ph.D. (Mentzer, Bush & Company: Chicago, 1949). Emphasis is original.




Our Civic Life and Progress is a elementary school textbook published in the United States in 1949 and, from the names and dates handwritten on the inside cover of my copy, used throughout the 1950s. Clearly "patriotic" textbooks used to condition the behavior of small children concerning loyal toward the state were hardly a Soviet monopoly.

Considering the time period, the sentences concerning supporting "our worthy leaders" even if they are "Socialist" are especially amusing. In a sickening sort of way.

The cover of the book is red. That's some sweet, sweet irony.

In the UK we don't teach much history post-14 Most - including the politicians - have only a passing knowledge of the past - they depend mainly on Mel Gibson films and TV documentaries....
In a world where knowledge is power an absence of knowledge leads to blissful ignorance....are we any worse treated than Putin's Russians ? Both nations are fed pap !

From the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2951502.stm
That's a spooky superpower Bush has there.
I'd prefer to have x-ray vision or superstrength or ability to fly. something like that.

Sorry but I'd say that the Russian people don't like how capitalism worked out for them.
They also didn't like how communism worked out for them.

Trying to create a capitalist state from the crumbling shithole that was the USSR of the 1980s hasn't worked. Oh how terribly surprising.

You could say the exact same of the Russian Empahr, when Lenin took it over. Little education, massive corruption and constant interference by the secret police. The fact that it had hardly sorted itself out even up to 1941 shows that you can't effect change off the back of nothing at all.

Russia's just beginning to see the benefits of capitalism again, if you take it away then you basically go from the ground up again... which keeps the quality of life low for the average Russian.
Traitor.
Gorbachev was no traitor to the USSR. He did what was right.

He had the Russian people in his mind, and he did exactly what was needed by bringing down a militaristic, unfree regime.

And I'm not talking about it not being free in terms of 'no freedom of industry', because believe me, I don't really care so much about a planned economy as I do about the freedom of the average person to live their lives without being constantly overseen by others, spying on their neighbours for 'radical thoughts' etc. etc.

By cutting the budgets of the various secret services, stopping mass censorship of the press and cutting down on the quite frankly ridiculous of corruption that absolutely plagued the USSR from the late 60s onwards.
Putin is my hero
He's a strong man, I'll give him that. I still don't trust him. At all.
hopefully he will bring back the USSR:) As he said it was the greatest catastrophe ever to befall humanity that it fell.
As ex-leader of the KGB, you'd have thought that he would...
Bring back Lenin to the classroom!
That might be quite hard, seeing as he's dead and all.

Plus I'm sure they learn the important things about Lenin -

1) Had Russia's interest in his heart, however lacked the means completely to genuinely do anything about the problems, and once he started dismantling the old style of regime, he found out exactly why the Tsarist regime was the way it was.

2) Was a good reader of people. The Politburo should have kicked out and, preferably, set the CHEKA on Stalin before he got too powerful. But no.

3) Had too much of a taste for power for his own good. The Red Terror shows this aptly.
The USSR was a terrible place to live if you believe American propaganda, but the UN files show a completely different story, sure it was different than we in the West are used to, but it was a different attitude and culture.
If you believe the USSR's propaganda.

You have to utterly suspend your disbelief either way.

In the UK we don't teach much history post-14 Most - including the politicians - have only a passing knowledge of the past - they depend mainly on Mel Gibson films and TV documentaries....
In a world where knowledge is power an absence of knowledge leads to blissful ignorance....are we any worse treated than Putin's Russians ? Both nations are fed pap !
Ermm...

You get taught history post-14 if you choose to, you don't if you don't. I did a GCSE in Hist. and now I'm doing A-level Modern History, as well as AS-level Early Modern in the coming year.

Oh, and the Crimean War was a 'brief conflict in Eastern Europe involving Russia, France and Britain.'

Wow, that book didn't even mention the major role the Turks had in that war? They kicked Russian ass (killing over 300,000 soldiers and losing very few of their own) in that particular conflict.

Erm, the East German government built that. And while, yes, they were more or less a USSR puppet, the USSR had very little at all to do with the decision about building the wall. That was Ulbricht's brain child.

Of course, it was the USSR's fault that a wall had to be built in the first place. Their extortion against East Germany under the guise of "war reparations" looted the country of infrastructure, machinery, building materials, technology and even entire factories, which resulted in weak economic growth and depressed living standards that drove people out of the country.

Tsar/Czar Putin?
Has anyone here read World War Z? After the zombie invasion, Russia finally gets sick of yet another failed government, and just goes back to the empire.
Could the story be true?

I too, like Andaras Prime, would like to see the return of the USSR, but for an entirely different reason. Why?
I missed out on the cold war and I want to see some Soviet Style Dystopia!

I missed out on the cold war and I want to see some Soviet Style Dystopia!

Yeah, that's a tough one these days. China is too wealthy and North Korea too impoverished to really evoke the sheer mediocrity of life in the USSR.

Source (http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2878775.ece)

This is in addition to military excises with China, new long-range bomber patrols, sending ships to the North Pole, increasing the defense budget, and building more military planes. It sure does seem that Russia is getting more assertive.

Huzzah for Orwellian truths!

But anyhow, it already shows that we're rapidly slipping back into the Cold War, something that is pretty apparant/obvious.

Yeah, that's a tough one these days. China is too wealthy and North Korea too impoverished to really evoke the sheer mediocrity of life in the USSR.

ROFLMAO! SIGGED!

Click Stand;12984462']I would like to know how they portray Gorbachev.

Overall this sounds like any other countries way with textbooks. I have yet to see one bad thing said about the A-bomb droppings in WWII in textbooks we used to read.

exactly.

Good.

Good.

Sel Appa is God.

Click Stand;12984462']I would like to know how they portray Gorbachev.

Overall this sounds like any other countries way with textbooks. I have yet to see one bad thing said about the A-bomb droppings in WWII in textbooks we used to read.

Mine did. There was on of those discussion things by it, and it said that some people didn't think that we should have.

I feel no guilt about it, I think it was better than the other option. Japan started a war, what happens after that is their fault. People feel far too much guilt over things that nothing can be done about. Good came from it. The war ended without 100,000's more Americans dying. And also look at Japan now. If we would have had to invade, many more would have died, on both sides.

Mine did. There was on of those discussion things by it, and it said that some people didn't think that we should have.

I feel no guilt about it, I think it was better than the other option. Japan started a war, what happens after that is their fault. People feel far too much guilt over things that nothing can be done about. Good came from it. The war ended without 100,000's more Americans dying. And also look at Japan now. If we would have had to invade, many more would have died, on both sides.

I don't think you can consider it a good thing. The lesser of two horrendous evils is a better term.

I don't think you can consider it a good thing. The lesser of two horrendous evils is a better term.

That is a better way to put it. War is horrendous and the more so it is, the less people want to fight it and the quicker its over.

I guess the reason i used the term "good" was because, being an Infantry Marine, I'd hate to know that people above me didn't use all means to make the enemy quit before I had to give my life. I'd also hate to be the one who had to tell 100,000's of mothers, that your son could have lived, but Japanese civilians were more important than him.

Putin is my hero, hopefully he will bring back the USSR:) As he said it was the greatest catastrophe ever to befall humanity that it fell.

Bring back Lenin to the classroom!


Lenin fucking sucked, yes he was terrible. He may have been a good thinker but he was a fucking horrible leader.


The USSR was a terrible place to live if you believe American propaganda

Or any reliable source about Russia that ever existed.


but the UN files show a completely different story, sure it was different than we in the West are used to, but it was a different attitude and culture.

What files? There are millions.

Putin is my hero, hopefully he will bring back the USSR:) As he said it was the greatest catastrophe ever to befall humanity that it fell.

Bring back Lenin to the classroom!

The USSR was a terrible place to live if you believe American propaganda, but the UN files show a completely different story, sure it was different than we in the West are used to, but it was a different attitude and culture.

Ok, my question to you before we continue, is: have you ever been to Russia?

Ok, my question to you before we continue, is: have you ever been to Russia?

I have been to Russia, and don't believe the shit AP tells you. The people I spoke to, although they do not like the situation, still prefer it to the soviet days.

I have been to Russia, and don't believe the shit AP tells you. The people I spoke to, although they do not like the situation, still prefer it to the soviet days.

As have I. I've been all over the country, so I was going to attempt to inform him of the error of his beliefs. They are quite simply wrong.

As have I. I've been all over the country, so I was going to attempt to inform him of the error of his beliefs. They are quite simply wrong.

Those Marxist types are very difficult to persuade, once you have so much passion for revolution. all opponents are seen to be corrupt money hungry betrayers. It demonizes them in the same way religion does to "sinners".

Those Marxist types are very difficult to persuade, once you have so much passion for revolution. all opponents are seen to be corrupt money hungry betrayers. It demonizes them in the same way religion does to "sinners".

I used to be one of those Marxist types ;)

Source (http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2878775.ece)

This is in addition to military excises with China, new long-range bomber patrols, sending ships to the North Pole, increasing the defense budget, and building more military planes. It sure does seem that Russia is getting more assertive.

Patriotic textbooks? Roflcopter. (snickers)

I never really trusted Putin. He seems like a Stalin-wannabe. Screw Stalin. Damn dictator. World has enough crackpot dictators. One more is worse than what we already have.

Of course, it was the USSR's fault that a wall had to be built in the first place. Their extortion against East Germany under the guise of "war reparations" looted the country of infrastructure, machinery, building materials, technology and even entire factories, which resulted in weak economic growth and depressed living standards that drove people out of the country.
Keep in mind also that since 1933 the population had been told that communism = SUPER BAD, and after 12 years, it's a bit hard to shake that kind of indoctrination, especially when the Red Army raped and pillaged most of Prussia, which somewhat backs the accusations up.

Plus also the fact that the East Germans were utterly bombarded with propaganda from both the East and West, and when the Eastern stuff says "work harder and your country will be awesome", whereas the Western stuff says "heh, we've already got a really cool country, why not join in the fun", I reckon people were certainly more tempted to go to the East.

The statistics say it all, really - about 2 to 3 million went from East to West, whereas only arounf 70,000 went from West to East.
Those Marxist types are very difficult to persuade, once you have so much passion for revolution. all opponents are seen to be corrupt money hungry betrayers. It demonizes them in the same way religion does to "sinners".
Sometimes we get over it. I hope AP does, sharpish, because he does nothing but utterly discredits the left wing.
I used to be one of those Marxist types ;)
Yeah, me too until I realised that most Marxists are conceited and usually upper-middle class, as well as mostly completely turning their views around by around 18, when they get a job and suddenly dislike taxes.

I like, in the main, socialism. But I dislike, in the main, socialists.
Patriotic textbooks? Roflcopter. (snickers)
Erm.

I keep hearing from people both without and within the US that your textbooks are hardly balanced, so I'd check the state of your proverbial glass-based house of the US way of doing things before you throw your stones of Much Hypocrisy.

I keep hearing from people both without and within the US that your textbooks are hardly balanced, so I'd check the state of your proverbial glass-based house of the US way of doing things before you throw your stones of Much Hypocrisy.

As someone who just completed a history course: our textbooks are better now. Mine went into detail about the oppression of the Native Americans, the Japanese internment camps, and the A bomb. Most of those mentioning heavily biased books probably took history quite some time ago, when we were still using books written in the 50s and 60s. And yes, those books were tremendously biased.

Erm.

I keep hearing from people both without and within the US that your textbooks are hardly balanced, so I'd check the state of your proverbial glass-based house of the US way of doing things before you throw your stones of Much Hypocrisy.

Mmm, true. After all, I wouldn't put such things past my government.

Keep in mind also that since 1933 the population had been told that communism = SUPER BAD, and after 12 years, it's a bit hard to shake that kind of indoctrination, especially when the Red Army raped and pillaged most of Prussia, which somewhat backs the accusations up.

Plus also the fact that the East Germans were utterly bombarded with propaganda from both the East and West, and when the Eastern stuff says "work harder and your country will be awesome", whereas the Western stuff says "heh, we've already got a really cool country, why not join in the fun", I reckon people were certainly more tempted to go to the East.

The statistics say it all, really - about 2 to 3 million went from East to West, whereas only arounf 70,000 went from West to East.

Sometimes we get over it. I hope AP does, sharpish, because he does nothing but utterly discredits the left wing.

Yeah, me too until I realised that most Marxists are conceited and usually upper-middle class, as well as mostly completely turning their views around by around 18, when they get a job and suddenly dislike taxes.

I like, in the main, socialism. But I dislike, in the main, socialists.

Erm.

I keep hearing from people both without and within the US that your textbooks are hardly balanced, so I'd check the state of your proverbial glass-based house of the US way of doing things before you throw your stones of Much Hypocrisy.

The thing about it is, while I am an "Upper Class" person who used to consider himself a Red, my reasoning was because I saw how corporations shat on my mother, a worker who lives at the poverty line. So I became rather anti-Corporatist as a result of many horrible things they did to her and her fellow workers. I saw Communism and Socialism as an alternative to it, but ultimately (After several years) realised I didn't especially like the idea of the Government running business, and prefer corporations to it. So, I remain anti-Corporate, but not a Communist. I guess I'm somewhere in between, not totally sure where I qualify to stand though.


EDIT: And yes, most all textbooks I've had are incredibly biased. Especially Government ones, all the mention is how our (The US's) system is better than any other, especially Great Britain's. Yeah, I had a textbook that spent numerous pages saying nothing more than Great Britain's political system sucked :Rolleyes:

I always say to have them teach both and have the student decide.

Sure, just as long as we include my theory, that a D&D wizard created the animals.

Putin is my hero, hopefully he will bring back the USSR:) As he said it was the greatest catastrophe ever to befall humanity that it fell.

Bring back Lenin to the classroom!

The USSR was a terrible place to live if you believe American propaganda, but the UN files show a completely different story, sure it was different than we in the West are used to, but it was a different attitude and culture.

Idealistic twaddle once more. The USSR was, from the declaration of tghe Red Terror in 1918 to its disintegration an oppressive, beaurocratic, inefficient state in which its citizens enjoyed consistent food shortages and lack of luxury items punctuated by the occassional surplus.

I would deal with Putin's policy in circumspection as well; it is more than likely that contemporary textbooks do reflect the sensibilities of those that sponsor them, and hence fail to provide an objective perspective upon the USSR. Moreover, the role of Stalin in the Great Patriotic War, though far surpassed by his undoubted complicity in the yezhovshina and post-war purges, should be recognised.

As someone who just completed a history course: our textbooks are better now. Mine went into detail about the oppression of the Native Americans, the Japanese internment camps, and the A bomb. Most of those mentioning heavily biased books probably took history quite some time ago, when we were still using books written in the 50s and 60s. And yes, those books were tremendously biased.
Ah ok, that kind of clears things up.
The thing about it is, while I am an "Upper Class" person who used to consider himself a Red, my reasoning was because I saw how corporations shat on my mother, a worker who lives at the poverty line. So I became rather anti-Corporatist as a result of many horrible things they did to her and her fellow workers. I saw Communism and Socialism as an alternative to it, but ultimately (After several years) realised I didn't especially like the idea of the Government running business, and prefer corporations to it. So, I remain anti-Corporate, but not a Communist. I guess I'm somewhere in between, not totally sure where I qualify to stand though.
For me it's mainly due to my upbringing and heritage - my family has been largely communist or borderline communist for around 100 years, and the printing press where the first copies of The Road to Wigan Pier were printed was actually in my great grandfather's attic.

The main problem for me isn't in socialism, because I still very much believe in it, but more that most socialists are either a) Nutters who harp on about the international revolution, which they realise will never happen, or b) Students who vote conservative as soon as they've got their degrees and find paying 40% taxes to be counterproductive to how they want to live their lives.
EDIT: And yes, most all textbooks I've had are incredibly biased. Especially Government ones, all the mention is how our (The US's) system is better than any other, especially Great Britain's. Yeah, I had a textbook that spent numerous pages saying nothing more than Great Britain's political system sucked :Rolleyes:
We should produce a counter document made of up two words : Electoral College.

'Nuff said.

"Freedom has many difficulties, and democracy is not perfect. But we have never had to put a wall up to keep our people in—to prevent them from leaving us."-John F. Kennedy, Berlin, West Germany,1961

[/thread]

I used to be one of those Marxist types ;)

What made you see the lite?

(misspelling of "light" intentional because I'm drinking Miller Lite!"

On another note I see in the newspaper today(okay it was The Sun) that a British fighter plane intercpted a Russian bomber heading for Britian. Alegedly the bomber was on a spying mission.

On another note I see in the newspaper today(okay it was The Sun) that a British fighter plane intercpted a Russian bomber heading for Britian. Alegedly the bomber was on a spying mission.

-10 points for reading The Sun.

I'm talking about IQ.

What are you guys expecting? It's Russia.

On another note I see in the newspaper today(okay it was The Sun) that a British fighter plane intercpted a Russian bomber heading for Britian. Alegedly the bomber was on a spying mission.
Same story was on the BBC, they scrambled loads of fighters, because Russia has started flying nuclear-equipped bombers over its borders again.

-10 points for reading The Sun.

I'm talking about IQ.

Damn! Can have them points back coz I only take the Sun for page three and Hagar?

this might turn into another cold war...thats not a good thing

Damn! Can have them points back coz I only take the Sun for page three and Hagar?
I'll give you 5 points back for Page 3 (but then again, why bother? we have the internet for such things now) but you lose 5 for Hagar. He hasn't been funny since...well...ever.
Still on -10 I'm afraid.

Oh, it's nothing that other countries don't do already.

I'll give you 5 points back for Page 3 (but then again, why bother? we have the internet for such things now) but you lose 5 for Hagar. He hasn't been funny since...well...ever.
Still on -10 I'm afraid.

Ahhhh ya see I was gonna get all weepy about it, then I suddenly realised you can't really take any IQ points away from me, being that you don't come from Earth.

Hagar not funny! That's almost as bad as saying Bart has better one liners than Homer!

Away from me you alien scum!

He is just doing what most other countries do anyway.

Hurrah!

Why did the USSR build the Berlin Wall again?:rolleyes:

To make sure that those going to the USSR really, really wanted to get there, and were really, really good.

:D

He is just doing what most other countries do anyway.

Indeed.

I haven't seen a single US history textbook(At least for High Schools) that even mention the Contras in Latin America(Funded by Reagan's Administration), the Japanese, Italian, and German internment camps during WWII, barely mentioning the near genocide of the Native Americans, or other travesties committed by the US.

It really does happen everywhere.

I think that Russia is making a new bout for power in case of a slip up by America. I also think that China is counting on a simmilar occurence. Which bring's me back to my general oppinion (voiced in the thread about the next colapse of China) that the East will inherit the world power. Think about it, the country with the largest land mass: Russia. The country with the most rapidly growing ecconomy: China. The country with the largest supply of readily available natural resources: Australia. India is now also making a push towards serious international power. The recent events in russia; the bombers almost flying within british airspace twice, attempting to claim commercial rights to the north pole and the rewriting of textbooks, are all signs that Russia is strengthening 1st position seriously for the first time since the cold war. You might say that Australia is a strong supporter of America, but some of you may be in for a shock when you hear that, with the new generation comming in and the old one going out, there is a verry large anti USA feeling. I personaly don't think it would take much to tip us.
(I'm Aussie).

Indeed.

I haven't seen a single US history textbook(At least for High Schools) that even mention the Contras in Latin America(Funded by Reagan's Administration), the Japanese, Italian, and German internment camps during WWII, barely mentioning the near genocide of the Native Americans, or other travesties committed by the US.

It really does happen everywhere.

Are you kidding? In my schooling we did entire units on the internment of the Japanese during the Second World War during elementary, middle and high school. In English we read autobiographical accounts of their lives in the internment camps, and we watched videos as well.

In US History in middle school we were introduced to the concept of the Iran-Contra scandal, with little information provided. It had to wait until sophomore year for AP that we discussed Iran-Contra, it's implications and why and how it happened. There was even a 2'x3' picture of Oli North and John Poindexter in the book. (If you're interested, the book used was The American Pageant)

We started discussing what the US government did to the Native American populations extremely early on. We read a book on the Trail of Tears in third grade. In fifth grade we had a unit on what had happened to Native Americans, and it continued all the way through our education.

I mean, admittedly, I attended one of the finest school systems in the state. A rich, white suburban place, yes, but we received an extremely balanced and well informed schooling.

History is the story of the ones that claimed victory

Putin is my hero, hopefully he will bring back the USSR:) As he said it was the greatest catastrophe ever to befall humanity that it fell.

Bring back Lenin to the classroom!

The USSR was a terrible place to live if you believe American propaganda, but the UN files show a completely different story, sure it was different than we in the West are used to, but it was a different attitude and culture.

You, my friend, are a disgrace to the political left. Sorry, it had to be said.

Are you kidding? In my schooling we did entire units on the internment of the Japanese during the Second World War during elementary, middle and high school. In English we read autobiographical accounts of their lives in the internment camps, and we watched videos as well.

In US History in middle school we were introduced to the concept of the Iran-Contra scandal, with little information provided. It had to wait until sophomore year for AP that we discussed Iran-Contra, it's implications and why and how it happened. There was even a 2'x3' picture of Oli North and John Poindexter in the book. (If you're interested, the book used was The American Pageant)

We started discussing what the US government did to the Native American populations extremely early on. We read a book on the Trail of Tears in third grade. In fifth grade we had a unit on what had happened to Native Americans, and it continued all the way through our education.

I mean, admittedly, I attended one of the finest school systems in the state. A rich, white suburban place, yes, but we received an extremely balanced and well informed schooling.

Really? I have met many people not only my age, but also adults(I'm talking 40-50 year olds), who haven't a clue when I bring up the internment camps(There were also German and Italian camps, little known fact), and have never once heard of the Iran-Contra conflict. Granted, what the US did to the Native Americans is gone over, it is very, very, very poorly gone over, and almost makes the US the look like shining heroes.

Now, I was lucky in actually having a great US History teacher my Senior year, and an English Teacher as well(Who could very well have been a History teacher), although I did know plenty about all these subjects before hand, I gained even more knowledge on them after wards.

Now, most textbooks gloss over many of these things, if they are mentioned at all(Especially the internment camps-this really is a rarity, at least unless it has changed recently, to be seen in text books. I've gone through quite a few US history textbooks, and most barely mention it. The Iran-Contra conflict may have been to recent for some books, although it is very important still).

Ho-well.