NationStates Jolt Archive

For the past few weeks I have been considering my faith. I am a Methodist myself, but have always been interested in the practices and tradition of the catholic church.

Recently I have been confronted with a huge choice: Catholic or Protestant? I can't decide which denomination to choose. My whole family is protestant and I have been for years. I am a baptised and confirmed methodist. If I become a catholic, I will be faced with several problems such as leaving my friends at church, having to find my own way to church since my family will be going the other way, and the general annoyance of converting.

I love the catholic traditions like saints and latin masses. I have adopted several catholic beliefs myself. I feel as if I am the rope in a game of tug-of-war between Protestantism and Catholicism.

I can't really get any good advice either. If I ask the Protestants, they will say that I should be Protestant and if I ask the Catholics, they will say that I should be Catholic and anyone who is neutral will tell me to do what I think is best. I suppose the only one who really knows what I should do is God.

I wonder if you can help make this process easier for me? Catholics, why should I be Catholic? Protestants, why should I be Protestant? I want good reasons. Debate as if you are trying to convert me.

Methodist churches are branched off from Protestants, so nominally you are a Protestant.

I know that I am a Protestant, but I am trying to decide if I should be a Catholic instead.

I wish to make two points:

1. Eastern Orthodoxy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox) for the win! Bringing style to Christianity since 1054!

2. Unless this deals with your IC national religion, this should go to the General Forum (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=1227) of d00m.

I wish to make two points:

1. Eastern Orthodoxy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox) for the win! Bringing style to Christianity since 1054!


The autonomous Holy Synod of the Holy Monastic Republic of the Archregimancy and the autocephalous Orthodox Church of the Holy Empire both wish to emphasise the point that it was the Catholic schismatics who broke away from us in 1054, not vice versa. We've been bringing style to Christianity from much earlier than 1054. Just who hosted those seven Ecumenical Councils anyway?


(OOC - but yes, this belongs in general)

The autonomous Holy Synod of the Holy Monastic Republic of the Archregimancy and the autocephalous Orthodox Church of the Holy Empire both wish to emphasise the point that it was the Catholic schismatics who broke away from us in 1054, not vice versa. We've been bringing style to Christianity from much earlier than 1054. Just who hosted those seven Ecumenical Councils anyway?

The Council of Archierei (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Taraskovyan_Church#Council_of_Archierei) of the Taraskovyan Orthodox Church (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Taraskovyan_Church) wholeheartedly agrees with our brothers if faith from the Orthodox Church of the Holy Empire and its exarchate of Archregimancy. However, for the sake of not confusing those that have not yet seen the light of the true One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, it is wise to consider that Eastern Orthodoxy has been bringing style to Christiany since 1054, as opposed to the Latin Schismists who did all in their power to taint the coolness that is proper to the Christian Church.

[OOC: I should really go to bed now before I take it to higher silliness. Also, exam tomorrow -.-]

I'm my own branch of Christianity. Zilamism. Actually, its my attempt to reform Christianity to its Jewish roots, but yet adapting to modern times and modern problems. I'm the only member so far, but I think I'll get more supporters if I start vocalising my ideas more.

In short, become a Zilamian Christian! :D

For the past few weeks I have been considering my faith. I am a Methodist myself, but have always been interested in the practices and tradition of the catholic church.

Lets see what Hedy Lamarr, oops, I meant Hedley Lamarr has to say

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km7WD8wkb1c


Recently I have been confronted with a huge choice: Catholic or Protestant? I can't decide which denomination to choose. My whole family is protestant and I have been for years. I am a baptised and confirmed methodist. If I become a catholic, I will be faced with several problems such as leaving my friends at church, having to find my own way to church since my family will be going the other way, and the general annoyance of converting.

I love the catholic traditions like saints and latin masses. I have adopted several catholic beliefs myself. I feel as if I am the rope in a game of tug-of-war between Protestantism and Catholicism.

I can't really get any good advice either. If I ask the Protestants, they will say that I should be Protestant and if I ask the Catholics, they will say that I should be Catholic and anyone who is neutral will tell me to do what I think is best. I suppose the only one who really knows what I should do is God.

I wonder if you can help make this process easier for me? Catholics, why should I be Catholic? Protestants, why should I be Protestant? I want good reasons. Debate as if you are trying to convert me.

I will not tell you why you should be Protestant or Catholic, but saying why you should not be Catholic.

While Catholicism has its appeal, there are certainly errors with its belief system.

Primarily is their veneration of the saints and particularly the Virgin Mary. While Mary may have been the tool through which the Messiah entered the world, she is certainly no different than you or I. To pray to her is to worship her, and the Bible makes it pretty clear that you are to worship no Gods other than God alone (Exodus 20:5). Similar with veneration of the saints, while the saints may have been special Christians, they are no different to you or I. To pray to the saints is again worship, and the Bible is very clear on that topic.

I would discuss other aspects, however, I would need some time to go in depth - needless to say, Catholicism is extremely dangerous.

Can I ask why you are choosing between the 2?

My point is, it seems as if you simply like the gaudiness of Catholicism but have you considered the moral implications of joining the Catholic Church?

Are you willing to believe in an infallible Pope and all that entails?

Are you choosing because you feel one is more aligned with God's true intentions or are you choosing because it's a better social club?

I'd agree with Zilam - form your own beliefs divorced from any church.

Become Catholic. Or even better, lapsed Catholic. I come from several generations of lapsed Catholics and it's as easy as pie.

There's no Protestant work ethic, eat a wafer a week for your soul and the Pope is far from fallible. Just don't say that to his face. And if you have kids, make sure they can outrun a priest.

:)

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There's no Protestant work ethic.

Thats not necessarily true and that is because we don't believe in salvation through works.

For the past few weeks I have been considering my faith. I am a Methodist myself, but have always been interested in the practices and tradition of the catholic church.

Recently I have been confronted with a huge choice: Catholic or Protestant? I can't decide which denomination to choose. My whole family is protestant and I have been for years. I am a baptised and confirmed methodist. If I become a catholic, I will be faced with several problems such as leaving my friends at church, having to find my own way to church since my family will be going the other way, and the general annoyance of converting.

I love the catholic traditions like saints and latin masses. I have adopted several catholic beliefs myself. I feel as if I am the rope in a game of tug-of-war between Protestantism and Catholicism.

I can't really get any good advice either. If I ask the Protestants, they will say that I should be Protestant and if I ask the Catholics, they will say that I should be Catholic and anyone who is neutral will tell me to do what I think is best. I suppose the only one who really knows what I should do is God.

I wonder if you can help make this process easier for me? Catholics, why should I be Catholic? Protestants, why should I be Protestant? I want good reasons. Debate as if you are trying to convert me.

have you taken any classes in catholic theology? and are you talking roman catholic?

have you taken any classes in catholic theology? and are you talking roman catholic?

My bet is that he's met some nice Catholic girl and wants to get into her knickers. Granted I think in the lowest common denomination but it's surprising how often the LCD is correct.

I still think it's so weird that the different Christian denominations can be SO different from one another.

*not a theologian*

If you have to ask, I think you're a Protestant. Catholicism requires a whole lot of things that were easy to accept in the Middle Ages, but today find most people wondering.

As far as I can tell, the infallibility of the Pope when he makes important announcements is justified by him being an actual representative of God. That implies he has an actual line of communication to 'the man' that goes both ways, unlike other people.

Then there's immaculate conception, and a whole lot of other rather...spiritual things with a lot more rational explanations.

I'm not sure one can really become a Catholic through thinking about these things. One can't come to believe that Mary was a virgin when previously one didn't, can one?

I think Protestant denominations require fewer mental gymnastics to accept, so it should be easier to become Protestant than to become Catholic.

On the other hand, what I said basically means that no Jew or Muslim could become a Christian without explicitly "kidding" themselves at some point (when moving from "Jesus was some human prophet" to "Jesus is God"). And given that I'm an atheist, I probably don't understand anyways.

So by all means, ignore me and do what you think will work for you. Asking others for religious advice seems like a silly idea.

Recently I have been confronted with a huge choice: Catholic or Protestant? I can't decide which denomination to choose. My whole family is protestant and I have been for years. I am a baptised and confirmed methodist. If I become a catholic, I will be faced with several problems such as leaving my friends at church, having to find my own way to church since my family will be going the other way, and the general annoyance of converting.

I love the catholic traditions like saints and latin masses. I have adopted several catholic beliefs myself. I feel as if I am the rope in a game of tug-of-war between Protestantism and Catholicism.

I can't really get any good advice either. If I ask the Protestants, they will say that I should be Protestant and if I ask the Catholics, they will say that I should be Catholic and anyone who is neutral will tell me to do what I think is best. I suppose the only one who really knows what I should do is God.

I wonder if you can help make this process easier for me? Catholics, why should I be Catholic? Protestants, why should I be Protestant? I want good reasons. Debate as if you are trying to convert me.

I think that you ought to become Catholic for two primary reasons. The first Apostolic Succession. If you haven't encountered this concept yet, it is the idea that Christ ordained His Apostles to perform special works in his name, who then chose other men for ministry, who then chose other men, and on and on down to the current day. These men are our bishops, priests, and deacons, and without them the most important sacrament in Christianity, the Mass/Divine Liturgy/Lord's Supper is not possible, as well as a number of other vital sacraments. Only the Catholic and Orthodox churches possess apostolic succession

The second is related to the first, and that is the doctrine of the real presence. Through apostolic succession, the bishops and priests of the Catholic and Orthodox churches have the power to change the bread and wine at Mass into Christ's body and blood, as per our Lord's command to eat his flesh and drink his blood given at the Last Supper. Without this, it is very difficult to obtain the graces necessary for salvation.

The best person to read on this topic, in my opinion, is St. Ignatius of Antioch. He died around the year 100, and is a great source of information about early Church teaching on ecclesiology and the doctrine of the real presence. If you can, read all of his letters. Even if you don't become Catholic, you will be better off for having read them.

Thats not necessarily true and that is because we don't believe in salvation through works.

Protestants have salvation through faith alone which is, I think, sola fide. According to them as soon as you're saved, you don't have to do anything... except work your arse off because otherwise you're sinful are are going to hell.

The Catholic Church says you have to believe, but also have to do good works.

Protestants have salvation through faith alone which is, I think, sola fide. According to them as soon as you're saved, you don't have to do anything... except work your arse off because otherwise you're sinful are are going to hell.

The Catholic Church says you have to believe, but also have to do good works.

Well, you must repent, and to repent you must attempt to achieve Sanctification. This means constantly trying to improve yourself and not sin. You cannot just say I believe in Jesus and then just sin all the time, as you would not truly be repentant and thus not be saved.

Catholicism has more dumb rules, but it's adherents are less likely to do something stupid like blowing themselves up in the name of their god.

Well, you must repent, and to repent you must attempt to achieve Sanctification. This means constantly trying to improve yourself and not sin. You cannot just say I believe in Jesus and then just sin all the time, as you would not truly be repentant and thus not be saved.

Actually, the Catholic Church has universal salvation.

Catholicism has more dumb rules, but it's adherents are less likely to do something stupid like blowing themselves up in the name of their god.

The fun thing is that you don't have to follow the dumb rules. Only the ones that make sense, like communion wine.

:p

Catholicism has more dumb rules, but it's adherents are less likely to do something stupid like blowing themselves up in the name of their god.

Crusades would argue with you there.

Ok, to be serious, there are some Catholic lobby organisations that argue in favour of using birth control, ordaining women, and various other things, and while the Vatican tries to shout them down many Catholics would agree with the lobby organisations.

I think Protestant denominations require fewer mental gymnastics to accept, so it should be easier to become Protestant than to become Catholic.

Yes, Protestant religions do require fewer mental gymnastics to accept. That is why they were created, because the people who broke off from Catholocism were incapable of wrapping there heads around Catholic concepts such as the immaculate conception and the veneration of saints. So rather than having the faith and mental fortitude that it takes they decided to create something "easier."

And while Protestanism is an easier route, you should ask yourself whether you really think the path to God should be easy. Does something like eternal salvation sound like something they hand out on the street?

I myself am a Catholic and I wouldnt say I'm very good at it either, but I try. And that's all it takes, you don't have to be the best Cayholic ever, but as long as you have faith, regardless of how illogical it sounds, your golden.

Yes, Protestant religions do require fewer mental gymnastics to accept. That is why they were created, because the people who broke off from Catholocism were incapable of wrapping there heads around Catholic concepts such as the immaculate conception and the veneration of saints. So rather than having the faith and mental fortitude that it takes they decided to create something "easier."

And while Protestanism is an easier route, you should ask yourself whether you really think the path to God should be easy. Does something like eternal salvation sound like something they hand out on the street?

I myself am a Catholic and I wouldnt say I'm very good at it either, but I try. And that's all it takes, you don't have to be the best Cayholic ever, but as long as you have faith, regardless of how illogical it sounds, your golden.

I agree with a lot of this. Catholicism, even when the lobby groups are considered, is still basically Catholicism, whereas there must be thousands of Protestant churches out there, each teaching different things and telling you they're right. The Catholic church has many charities to help in third would countries (Project Compassion, for example).

Yes, Protestant religions do require fewer mental gymnastics to accept. That is why they were created, because the people who broke off from Catholocism were incapable of wrapping there heads around Catholic concepts such as the immaculate conception and the veneration of saints. So rather than having the faith and mental fortitude that it takes they decided to create something "easier."
.

Er, no. They broke off because of the Reformation and the sins the Catholic Church was committing at the time. It wasn't necessarily because they "couldn't wrap their heads" around some concepts.

I agree with a lot of this. Catholicism, even when the lobby groups are considered, is still basically Catholicism, whereas there must be thousands of Protestant churches out there, each teaching different things and telling you they're right. The Catholic church has many charities to help in third would countries (Project Compassion, for example).

Exactly, while many of the protestant religions spend the majority of there time arguing that they are right and everyone else is wrong and should be despised, the majority of Catholics are actually out doing chairities, be it working in soup kitchens or even just donating a couple bucks here and there. Plus Catholics are helping anyone, regardless of whether your another religion, a catholic charity will help you

Er, no. They broke off because of the Reformation and the sins the Catholic Church was committing at the time. It wasn't necessarily because they "couldn't wrap their heads" around some concepts.

Yes some broke away with just cause, but a great deal many left just because they didnt like something about it.

Crusades would argue with you there.

the crusades were how long ago? How many Catholic extremists do you see waging wars and performing terrorist acts?

At some point in a time, usually in the early stages, a religion goes through an extremist stage, in which it performs acts it wont be proud of later.

The last pope, John Paul II, apologized for many of the atrocities in Catholicisms past.

Who really cares? All religion is BS anyway. Almost every war ever fought was over religion in someway. Do you really want to support something that has caused incaulcuable deaths over the last 6000 years or so? And this is coming from somwone who believes in GOD

So expound my point, I believe in GOD, but every religion to some point has it right. There is no one true religion, so my advice to you is, believe in what ever you want to believe, because odds are you could be right.

The only Religions I trust less than the Catholic church is: Islam and Moromonism.

Catholics worship, for lack of a better term, HUMANS!, when it clearly states in the bible to only worship GOD. Saint whoever and Mary are HUMAN, and therefore should not be worshipped. That is my main beef with Catholicism.

As for Islam, basically they believe in the Bible, but interpreted it a bit off. Besides, i don't trust a religion that doesn't let you drink or that you have to pray at least 5 times a day and that you have to visit the most Holy Site (Mecca). I don't see every Jew visit Jeruselem, nor every Catholic visit Vatican City nor Protestants visit Germany.

As for Mormons... They make Muslims look like Linsday Lohan.. 'nuff said there.

Are you willing to believe in an infallible Pope and all that entails?


That's only relevant when considering Roman Catholicism, to be accurate. You can be an Orthodox Christian, classed ordinarily under the umbrella of Catholicism, without accepting that sort of thing. ;)

Crusades would argue with you there.

I don't think he was using the past tense. :p In any case, that applies again to Roman Catholicism. Not everyone was on the bandwagon, and that sort of thing was par for the course at the time in any event. ;)

The way I see things, what you do matters more than which curch you attend (if any). Atma's philosophy:

"Create happiness for others while removing unhappiness."

I'm not saying that my philiosophy is pefect. I'm not asking you to abandon christianity and switch to it. But if a religion centers around worshipping a deity instead of concentrating on doing good deeds, it should be setting off warning sirens in your head.

El Cliffo summary: Doing good deeds should give a happy afterlife (if you believe in one) no matter who you worship.

That's only relevant when considering Roman Catholicism, to be accurate. You can be an Orthodox Christian, classed ordinarily under the umbrella of Catholicism,

Absolutely not. Orthodoxy and Catholicism are entirely separate.
Catholics have been in schism with us Orthodox for nine hundred and fifty three years, and neither side would ordinarily class Orthodoxy 'under the umbrella of Catholicism'. In fact, several senior Russian theologians have written that, from the Orthodox perspective, Protestantism and Catholicism are closer to each other than either is to Orthodoxy.

But we'd welcome them all back to the One True Church if they could ever admit the error of their ways ;)

The only Religions I trust less than the Catholic church is: Islam and Moromonism.

Catholics worship, for lack of a better term, HUMANS!, when it clearly states in the bible to only worship GOD. Saint whoever and Mary are HUMAN, and therefore should not be worshipped. That is my main beef with Catholicism.Then you haven't much of a beef with it, as you've somehow misinterpreted what they actually do. They ask for the intercession of the saints, they don't pray to them. No worship involved. Have you ever read, for instance, the text of the "Hail Mary"? It's intercessory in nature.

I am so tired of that thing popping up every single time someone says 'Catholic', and I'm not even one.

Why choose; just go to both churches if you like them. Morning service in one, midday service in the other.
Personally I can't imagine why one'd want to, but hey..

Then you haven't much of a beef with it, as you've somehow misinterpreted what they actually do. They ask for the intercession of the saints, they don't pray to them. No worship involved. Have you ever read, for instance, the text of the "Hail Mary"? It's intercessory in nature.

I am so tired of that thing popping up every single time someone says 'Catholic', and I'm not even one.

Thank you, I'm glad someone knows about religions before they go opening there mouth. Catholics definitely do not worship Mary or the saints, to say otherwise is stereotypical prejudice against them. We merely venerate them for there parts in the Bible and there acts in life, so that we may act similarly in our own. They are hailed for there chastity, abstinence, liberality, diligence, kindness, patience, and humility, virtues that we wish to convey ourselves. They are venerated as great people, whose lives should be modeled after, but they are assuredly not worshipped as gods.


I would also like to add that the original topic was for catholics to give reasons why to become catholic and for protestants to give reasons why to stay protestant. As of yet there hasnt been a single protestant who gave reasons why protestantism is right, rather they have only given reasons why catholicism is wrong. Maybe rather than bashing another religion, which you know close to nothing about, you should be giving the positive aspects of your own.

If I ask the Protestants, they will say that I should be Protestant

No, you're wrong ;-) I am Protestant but in a similar situation. I don't know the Methodists very well, I am Lutheran, but the Lutheran church here in Northern Germany in my eyes is much too liberal. Like you, I enjoy the catholic traditions, each second sunday I go to the catholic mass (the other sundays I play organ in a Protestant church).
I have the same problem with my family, although not exactly because my wife is catholic. So in the moment I stay in the protestant church, I like my old church community and their pastor, but I continue visiting the mass. I'm sure in a few years I'm going to convert to catholicism.

The only Religions I trust less than the Catholic church is: Islam and Moromonism.

Catholics worship, for lack of a better term, HUMANS!, when it clearly states in the bible to only worship GOD. Saint whoever and Mary are HUMAN, and therefore should not be worshipped. That is my main beef with Catholicism.

As for Islam, basically they believe in the Bible, but interpreted it a bit off. Besides, i don't trust a religion that doesn't let you drink or that you have to pray at least 5 times a day and that you have to visit the most Holy Site (Mecca). I don't see every Jew visit Jeruselem, nor every Catholic visit Vatican City nor Protestants visit Germany.


So... pray to God, not humans... just not too much?



:confused:

-snip-
The difference it ultimately should make is only one of the means by which you practice what you aspire to. If membership of either movement dictates what you believe then you're doing it wrong.

I say it's entirely a matter of personal preference.

For the past few weeks I have been considering my faith. I am a Methodist myself, but have always been interested in the practices and tradition of the catholic church.

Recently I have been confronted with a huge choice: Catholic or Protestant? I can't decide which denomination to choose. My whole family is protestant and I have been for years. I am a baptised and confirmed methodist. If I become a catholic, I will be faced with several problems such as leaving my friends at church, having to find my own way to church since my family will be going the other way, and the general annoyance of converting.

I love the catholic traditions like saints and latin masses. I have adopted several catholic beliefs myself. I feel as if I am the rope in a game of tug-of-war between Protestantism and Catholicism.

I can't really get any good advice either. If I ask the Protestants, they will say that I should be Protestant and if I ask the Catholics, they will say that I should be Catholic and anyone who is neutral will tell me to do what I think is best. I suppose the only one who really knows what I should do is God.

I wonder if you can help make this process easier for me? Catholics, why should I be Catholic? Protestants, why should I be Protestant? I want good reasons. Debate as if you are trying to convert me.

It's just like trying on pants. Try one for a while. If it doesn't fit, try the other. If it doesn't fit, try something else.

IMO, church is for growing as a Christian. If you think you are stagnant in your own church, find another, but hopping around for who has the best floor show? notsogood.

It's okay to have preferences (i.e. I don't like high church or I prefer high church) but it's not okay to hop around like a bunny to places that may not even support you in your beliefs because you like the color of the carpet.

See if you can line out exactly what you believe, and then compare churches. If you totally 100% believe what a church believes ( or have no problem with what they believe) then by all means, go. If you are just going because you don't like your parents church and they have cool outfits........you should reconsider why you go to church at all.

I'm my own branch of Christianity. Zilamism. Actually, its my attempt to reform Christianity to its Jewish roots, but yet adapting to modern times and modern problems. I'm the only member so far, but I think I'll get more supporters if I start vocalising my ideas more.

In short, become a Zilamian Christian! :D
sounds cult-y. ;)



Then there's immaculate conception, and a whole lot of other rather...spiritual things with a lot more rational explanations.

I'm not sure one can really become a Catholic through thinking about these things. One can't come to believe that Mary was a virgin when previously one didn't, can one?
immaculate conception refers to the belief that Mary was conceived in a virgin. Most protestants believe that Mary was a virgin, but we mostly believe that she was conceived the regular mom and dad route. Catholics believe that she was born of a virgin, and thus she is holy above all other women, because she didn't have original sin.
I think that you ought to become Catholic for two primary reasons. The first Apostolic Succession. If you haven't encountered this concept yet, it is the idea that Christ ordained His Apostles to perform special works in his name, who then chose other men for ministry, who then chose other men, and on and on down to the current day. These men are our bishops, priests, and deacons, and without them the most important sacrament in Christianity, the Mass/Divine Liturgy/Lord's Supper is not possible, as well as a number of other vital sacraments. Only the Catholic and Orthodox churches possess apostolic succession

The second is related to the first, and that is the doctrine of the real presence. Through apostolic succession, the bishops and priests of the Catholic and Orthodox churches have the power to change the bread and wine at Mass into Christ's body and blood, as per our Lord's command to eat his flesh and drink his blood given at the Last Supper. Without this, it is very difficult to obtain the graces necessary for salvation.

The best person to read on this topic, in my opinion, is St. Ignatius of Antioch. He died around the year 100, and is a great source of information about early Church teaching on ecclesiology and the doctrine of the real presence. If you can, read all of his letters. Even if you don't become Catholic, you will be better off for having read them.
So........God appoints magic people........no, wait, just magic men, and they all belong to one huge church?

See if you can line out exactly what you believe, and then compare churches. If you totally 100% believe what a church believes ( or have no problem with what they believe) then by all means, go. If you are just going because you don't like your parents church and they have cool outfits........you should reconsider why you go to church at all.
Hmm. Totally agree with the last sentence, not so sure about the general sentiment. If you pick a church based on the ideas they teach then the only way you'll grow is in the ideas that they teach you. Sometimes, the best growth comes amid ideological tension.

The way I see things, what you do matters more than which curch you attend (if any). Atma's philosophy:

"Create happiness for others while removing unhappiness."

I'm not saying that my philiosophy is pefect. I'm not asking you to abandon christianity and switch to it. But if a religion centers around worshipping a deity instead of concentrating on doing good deeds, it should be setting off warning sirens in your head.

El Cliffo summary: Doing good deeds should give a happy afterlife (if you believe in one) no matter who you worship.
If you are saying what I think you are saying that's B.S.

Part of church is communal worship. If you go to a church that is not interested in worshiping God then you should be very worried.

Hmm. Totally agree with the last sentence, not so sure about the general sentiment. If you pick a church based on the ideas they teach then the only way you'll grow is in the ideas that they teach you. Sometimes, the best growth comes amid ideological tension.

You don't think you should go to a church that believes what you believe? You think Muslims should attend Mass and Catholics should trot down to the Kingdom Hall? :confused:

I think if you can't even make a list of what's important to you and what you believe you have more problems than what church to go to.

For the past few weeks I have been considering my faith. I am a Methodist myself, but have always been interested in the practices and tradition of the catholic church.

Recently I have been confronted with a huge choice: Catholic or Protestant? I can't decide which denomination to choose. My whole family is protestant and I have been for years. I am a baptised and confirmed methodist. If I become a catholic, I will be faced with several problems such as leaving my friends at church, having to find my own way to church since my family will be going the other way, and the general annoyance of converting.

I love the catholic traditions like saints and latin masses. I have adopted several catholic beliefs myself. I feel as if I am the rope in a game of tug-of-war between Protestantism and Catholicism.

I can't really get any good advice either. If I ask the Protestants, they will say that I should be Protestant and if I ask the Catholics, they will say that I should be Catholic and anyone who is neutral will tell me to do what I think is best. I suppose the only one who really knows what I should do is God.

I wonder if you can help make this process easier for me? Catholics, why should I be Catholic? Protestants, why should I be Protestant? I want good reasons. Debate as if you are trying to convert me.

You hit the nail on the head when you said you should ask God.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

(I had to look it up when I first read this, but to upbraid means to punish or rebuke.)

Don't take the word of any person for it. We're all just human beings with our own agendas, our own biases and our own opinions. If you want to know what path to follow to gain the truth, then there's only one logical source of information and that's the Living God.

You think Muslims should attend Mass and Catholics should trot down to the Kingdom Hall? :confused:
Yes! Unreservedly! I think it would do everyone phenomenal good if we were able to overlook the barriers that separate our practices in the search for God. It doesn't mean rejecting what one believes if we seek to congregate with the greater humanity rather than simply those with whom we are in agreement.

The only Religions I trust less than the Catholic church is: Islam and Moromonism.

As for Mormons... They make Muslims look like Linsday Lohan.. 'nuff said there.

...whatever that's supposed to mean :confused:

Yes! Unreservedly! I think it would do everyone phenomenal good if we were able to overlook the barriers that separate our practices in the search for God. It doesn't mean rejecting what one believes if we seek to congregate with the greater humanity rather than simply those with whom we are in agreement.

what are you doing to live out your own advice?

The autonomous Holy Synod of the Holy Monastic Republic of the Archregimancy and the autocephalous Orthodox Church of the Holy Empire both wish to emphasise the point that it was the Catholic schismatics who broke away from us in 1054, not vice versa. We've been bringing style to Christianity from much earlier than 1054. Just who hosted those seven Ecumenical Councils anyway?


(OOC - but yes, this belongs in general)

Yeah, but we ended up with Rome, and that is FANTASTIC real estate.:p

Quote Smunkeeville: immaculate conception refers to the belief that Mary was conceived in a virgin. Most protestants believe that Mary was a virgin, but we mostly believe that she was conceived the regular mom and dad route. Catholics believe that she was born of a virgin, and thus she is holy above all other women, because she didn't have original sin.


Actually that is not exactly what immaculate conception means. (But it comes closer than what is beliebed is general) It means that Mary was born without original sin (everybody else is burdened with it since Adam and Eve), so that Jesus was born also without original sin, because the son of God can't be sinful, can he? Catholics and protestants believe both that Mary indeed was a virgin, Jesus is not the son of Joseph, but of God, but her own mother, St. Anne, wasn't a virgin. Sadly almost everyone thinks that immaculate conception is about Mary being a virgin, but it isn't.

Quote Smunkeeville: immaculate conception refers to the belief that Mary was conceived in a virgin. Most protestants believe that Mary was a virgin, but we mostly believe that she was conceived the regular mom and dad route. Catholics believe that she was born of a virgin, and thus she is holy above all other women, because she didn't have original sin.


Actually that is not exactly what immaculate conception means. (But it comes closer than what is beliebed is general) It means that Mary was born without original sin (everybody else is burdened with it since Adam and Eve), so that Jesus was born also without original sin, because the son of God can't be sinful, can he? Catholics and protestants believe both that Mary indeed was a virgin, Jesus is not the son of Joseph, but of God, but her own mother, St. Anne, wasn't a virgin. Sadly almost everyone thinks that immaculate conception is about Mary being a virgin, but it isn't.

thanks for clarifying. I am neither a theologian or a Catholic, so sometimes things get buggy when I try to explain them.....

For the past few weeks I have been considering my faith. I am a Methodist myself, but have always been interested in the practices and tradition of the catholic church.

Recently I have been confronted with a huge choice: Catholic or Protestant? I can't decide which denomination to choose. My whole family is protestant and I have been for years. I am a baptised and confirmed methodist. If I become a catholic, I will be faced with several problems such as leaving my friends at church, having to find my own way to church since my family will be going the other way, and the general annoyance of converting.

I love the catholic traditions like saints and latin masses. I have adopted several catholic beliefs myself. I feel as if I am the rope in a game of tug-of-war between Protestantism and Catholicism.

I can't really get any good advice either. If I ask the Protestants, they will say that I should be Protestant and if I ask the Catholics, they will say that I should be Catholic and anyone who is neutral will tell me to do what I think is best. I suppose the only one who really knows what I should do is God.

I wonder if you can help make this process easier for me? Catholics, why should I be Catholic? Protestants, why should I be Protestant? I want good reasons. Debate as if you are trying to convert me.

I am a Catholic, and I would say that you should be very, very, very sure before you decide to convert. It will cause friction in your family and perhaps your friends will not be all that accepting.

You can love the pageantry and music and art of the Catholic church, but if that honestly is your only reason to consider conversion, I wouldn't. I'd simply remain Methodist and visit Masses with a friend.

On the other hand, if you honestly feel that you're missing something and that Catholicism fills that spiritual need, you should convert. I would at that point seriously study the differences in the way the two sects worship, and speak with counselors both Methodist and Catholic to see if you are truly certain and ready. Weigh what both have to say before you make a decision.

Protestants have salvation through faith alone which is, I think, sola fide. According to them as soon as you're saved, you don't have to do anything... except work your arse off because otherwise you're sinful are are going to hell.

The Catholic Church says you have to believe, but also have to do good works.

And what is so terribly hard -- or sinister -- about believing that one should, for instance, giving to charity or volunteering one's time or expertise to help others, or choosing a profession that helps others rather than merely profiting?

Will you now tell me that Protestants do not do these things?

Er, no. They broke off because of the Reformation and the sins the Catholic Church was committing at the time. It wasn't necessarily because they "couldn't wrap their heads" around some concepts.

All those thinking that selling salvation in the form of Papal bulls was just and right, raise their hands....


Right, didn't think so. Luther was morally correct in nailing his Theses down.

Have there been abuses in every church? Probably. Have very good people disagreed vehemently over what was morally correct? Definitely (I've been reading about the historical schism between the Mennonite and Amish orders).

And what is so terribly hard -- or sinister -- about believing that one should, for instance, giving to charity or volunteering one's time or expertise to help others, or choosing a profession that helps others rather than merely profiting?

Will you now tell me that Protestants do not do these things?

Protestants do these things. Anyone who is in service to God should feel compelled to.

It's like this, I love my husband, if he is sick I take care of him.

I love God, if his people are hurting I help them.

If I did not love my husband I wouldn't care that he was sick, if I didn't love God I wouldn't care about His commandments.

The only Religions I trust less than the Catholic church is: Islam and Moromonism.

Catholics worship, for lack of a better term, HUMANS!, when it clearly states in the bible to only worship GOD. Saint whoever and Mary are HUMAN, and therefore should not be worshipped. That is my main beef with Catholicism.

As for Islam, basically they believe in the Bible, but interpreted it a bit off. Besides, i don't trust a religion that doesn't let you drink or that you have to pray at least 5 times a day and that you have to visit the most Holy Site (Mecca). I don't see every Jew visit Jeruselem, nor every Catholic visit Vatican City nor Protestants visit Germany.

As for Mormons... They make Muslims look like Linsday Lohan.. 'nuff said there.

Catholics do not worship the saints. Catholics ask for guidance -- much as you might ask a pastor or Imam or rabbi for advice. And honestly, in matters of faith, many times what the human you ask for advice tells you is not as important as your verbalizing your doubts, thinking them out logically, and working it out for yourself.

Catholics do not worship the saints. Catholics ask for guidance -- much as you might ask a pastor or Imam or rabbi for advice. And honestly, in matters of faith, many times what the human you ask for advice tells you is not as important as your verbalizing your doubts, thinking them out logically, and working it out for yourself.

can't you just ask God for advice then? I don't understand talking to dead people.....

See if you can line out exactly what you believe, and then compare churches. If you totally 100% believe what a church believes ( or have no problem with what they believe) then by all means, go.
Then he's never going to find a church.

Then he's never going to find a church.

so?

That entirely depends on what type of protestant church you are going for. There is no one protestant sect.

My thoughts on catholicsim:

Catholics rule! They are always more liberal and don't act all... christian. (ok not always, but most of the time)
However, though there are some benefits of having a highly regulated papacy, it is a fucked up organisation with a terrible history.

Protestants do these things. Anyone who is in service to God should feel compelled to.

Ah, Smunkee, you miss my point.
I KNOW Protestants do these same things -- many of my friends and some of my family are Protestants. What I get tired of is when, "Catholics believe in good works" gets thrown up as if it's something sinister and evil.

I am a Catholic, and I would say that you should be very, very, very sure before you decide to convert. It will cause friction in your family and perhaps your friends will not be all that accepting.

You can love the pageantry and music and art of the Catholic church, but if that honestly is your only reason to consider conversion, I wouldn't. I'd simply remain Methodist and visit Masses with a friend.

On the other hand, if you honestly feel that you're missing something and that Catholicism fills that spiritual need, you should convert. I would at that point seriously study the differences in the way the two sects worship, and speak with counselors both Methodist and Catholic to see if you are truly certain and ready. Weigh what both have to say before you make a decision.



And what is so terribly hard -- or sinister -- about believing that one should, for instance, giving to charity or volunteering one's time or expertise to help others, or choosing a profession that helps others rather than merely profiting?

Will you now tell me that Protestants do not do these things?



All those thinking that selling salvation in the form of Papal bulls was just and right, raise their hands....


Right, didn't think so. Luther was morally correct in nailing his Theses down.

Have there been abuses in every church? Probably. Have very good people disagreed vehemently over what was morally correct? Definitely (I've been reading about the historical schism between the Mennonite and Amish orders).


AMEN!

can't you just ask God for advice then? I don't understand talking to dead people.....

It's not so much talking to dead people as thinking of someone whose life you believe to show how a moral person would live and thinking, "What would Uncle Tom do in a case like this?"

If anything I'd be Catholic, if only because any amount of confession, chantries and benevolences allow you to do whatever the fuck you want and still get into heaven.

Protestantism is, frankly, boring. Even traditional CofE churches pale into comparison to Catholic equivalents of commensurate age, and the defining point of the faith appears to be self-denial and ascetism.

If anything I'd be Catholic, if only because any amount of confession, chantries and benevolences allow you to do whatever the fuck you want and still get into heaven.

Completely wrong attitude about Catholicism. If you're all about getting over, you get nothing from it.

Remember it has to be sincere repentance, not, "Gonna sin all my life and have a get into Heaven free card."

Ah, Smunkee, you miss my point.
I KNOW Protestants do these same things -- many of my friends and some of my family are Protestants. What I get tired of is when, "Catholics believe in good works" gets thrown up as if it's something sinister and evil.

well, it's that line.......

see, I do good works because I want to serve God, I have heard from some Catholics that "you work out your own salvation" and that God's grace is insufficient, and if you don't do all the stuff that they say then you can't get into heaven, and if you do, then you can because ultimately it's your job to get yourself there and God can't help you.

that came out incoherent....give me a few mintues to remember how to word it and I will be back.

well, it's that line.......

see, I do good works because I want to serve God, I have heard from some Catholics that "you work out your own salvation" and that God's grace is insufficient, and if you don't do all the stuff that they say then you can't get into heaven, and if you do, then you can because ultimately it's your job to get yourself there and God can't help you.

that came out incoherent....give me a few mintues to remember how to word it and I will be back.

And they'd be wrong. God's grace is of course sufficient to get one into Heaven, but don't you like to please your parents by doing what's morally correct? If you've been raised as a moral person, don't you believe it is your duty to help others?

Off topic: ARRRRRRGH, I missed you last night AGAIN! I'm sorry, I didn't see till you popped in twice -- I had a minor meltdown going on at home and was AFK.

If anything I'd be Catholic, if only because any amount of confession, chantries and benevolences allow you to do whatever the fuck you want and still get into heaven.

Protestantism is, frankly, boring. Even traditional CofE churches pale into comparison to Catholic equivalents of commensurate age, and the defining point of the faith appears to be self-denial and ascetism.

Thats wrong actually. Traditionally it was the protestants who believed in faith alone, where you only need to believe in Christ to get into heaven, without need for any good works.

And they'd be wrong. God's grace is of course sufficient to get one into Heaven, but don't you like to please your parents by doing what's morally correct? If you've been raised as a moral person, don't you believe it is your duty to help others?

Off topic: ARRRRRRGH, I missed you last night AGAIN! I'm sorry, I didn't see till you popped in twice -- I had a minor meltdown going on at home and was AFK.

If you commit a "mortal" sin, even after you have commited your life to God, do you go to hell?

this is where the Catholics think I am insane because as a Baptist of course it's once saved always saved.

Thats wrong actually. Traditionally it was the protestants who believed in faith alone, where you only need to believe in Christ to get into heaven, without need for any good works.

Justification by faith alone and all that. I know. My point was that as a Cathoilc you can have as much fun as you want and still get into heaven.

If you are saying what I think you are saying that's B.S.

Part of church is communal worship. If you go to a church that is not interested in worshiping God then you should be very worried.

I come from a Jewish family, but we're by no means devout. I lost interest in religion after all the religious troubles coming in the news, but the final straw was 9/11. How am I supposed to worship an "omnibenevolent" deity that could prevent it (and the 12/26 tsunamiquake and all the other disasters) but didn't?

Yes, I celebrate chanukah, but it's for presents and for being around my family. Yes, I've been to synagogues occasionally, but only for marriages and funerals. And no, my parents had no problems with me turning atheist.

If you commit a "mortal" sin, even after you have commited your life to God, do you go to hell?

this is where the Catholics think I am insane because as a Baptist of course it's once saved always saved.

Wouldn't you have to make amends for the wrongs you have done if you want to keep a good relationship with anyone?

If you commit a "mortal" sin, even after you have commited your life to God, do you go to hell?

this is where the Catholics think I am insane because as a Baptist of course it's once saved always saved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_sin

Wouldn't you have to make amends for the wrongs you have done if you want to keep a good relationship with anyone?
Of course if you are sinning it hurts your relationship with God, but it doesn't negate it completely.

Catholicism has more dumb rules, but it's adherents are less likely to do something stupid like blowing themselves up in the name of their god.



i draw your attention to the flagellants who believed in self harm as a route to salvation. as well as this the theory that catholiicism does not include extremist elements who perform vile acts of suicide in the name of god is untrue with the more apparent rise of muslim fundamentalism it breeds the same attitudes in christian and jewish circles albeit in the extremist dogmatic wings

Completely wrong attitude about Catholicism. If you're all about getting over, you get nothing from it.

Remember it has to be sincere repentance, not, "Gonna sin all my life and have a get into Heaven free card."

Bah. Foiled!

Perhaps this explains why I'm not religious then.:D

i draw your attention to the flagellants who believed in self harm as a route to salvation. as well as this the theory that catholiicism does not include extremist elements who perform vile acts of suicide in the name of god is untrue with the more apparent rise of muslim fundamentalism it breeds the same attitudes in christian and jewish circles albeit in the extremist dogmatic wings

And when, outside of the fictional story The DaVinci Code, have there been modern flagellants?

Would you care to offer up some sources and proof for your assertions?

I wonder if you can help make this process easier for me? Catholics, why should I be Catholic? Protestants, why should I be Protestant? I want good reasons. Debate as if you are trying to convert me.
First, before leaving your church, make sure you know it thoroughly before you decide to leave it. Only then would you be very satisfied about your decision. I have a professor who wanted to convert to Islam, was disillusioned with Catholicism, but when he learned about Catholicism better, he has remained in it for everything it meant and stood for and started wanting to make it better. In short, he's still a Catholic, though he has a lot of questions about faith.

So learn much about your faith first before converting. This is coming from a Catholic.

And also, if you are worried about having nobody to be with, well I'm sure if you do decide to convert, there would be new people you'll meet too. Also, if you're gonna lose some friends jus' because you switched religions, I think there's something wrong in the picture. Friends are friends, family is family no matter what religion. ;)

And when, outside of the fictional story The DaVinci Code, have there been modern flagellants?

Would you care to offer up some sources and proof for your assertions?
There is still self-mortification in Opus Dei. However, it is not nearly as important as the book made it seem, and no one who has left Opus Dei has done so because of it (my source is someone who was interviewed on Fresh Air, I think his name was John Allen).

First, understand that unless you accept the Canon of the Bible as the one true doctrine, nothng I say will be valid in your ears. Because of this, I have long since given up religious debates with Catholics.
I have used the King James Version of the Bible as it is the earliest English rendition.

All scripure is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:16 KJV

Thats wrong actually. Traditionally it was the protestants who believed in faith alone, where you only need to believe in Christ to get into heaven, without need for any good works.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
If a brother or sister be naked an desitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled, notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. James 2:14-17 KJV

Thank you, I'm glad someone knows about religions before they go opening there mouth. Catholics definitely do not worship Mary or the saints, to say otherwise is stereotypical prejudice against them. We merely venerate them for there parts in the Bible and there acts in life, so that we may act similarly in our own. They are hailed for there chastity, abstinence, liberality, diligence, kindness, patience, and humility, virtues that we wish to convey ourselves. They are venerated as great people, whose lives should be modeled after, but they are assuredly not worshipped as gods.

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth 1 Peter 2:21-22 KJV

We have already been given the perfect example.. There is no need to model ourselves after any other, as all humans are imperfect and subject to sin as were all of the saints. Jesus is the only perfect man.






The Protestants were Believers in God who saw the corruption of the Catholic Church. If you disagree. Then I would consider reading Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, A well known satire of the Catholic Church at the time.




If you need any guidance in what to look for in a church, then refer to the Bible
So the best solution, is search for the closest Biblical Church.

Peter said unto them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38 KJV

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
If a brother or sister be naked an desitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled, notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. James 2:14-17 KJV
Er, that's usually the source Catholics use to support the idea of faith and good works. I'm not sure if you're supporting it, or saying Catholics don't, or...I don't know.



The Protestants were Believers in God who saw the corruption of the Catholic Church. If you disagree. Then I would consider reading Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, A well known satire of the Catholic Church at the time.
Having died in 1400, it would have been difficult for Chaucer to be Protestant, or even read the King James Bible.




If you need any guidance in what to look for in a church, then refer to the Bible
Not a bad idea, actually.

So the best solution, is search for the closest Biblical Church.
Guess which Church compiled the Bible?

Whatever you do (OP), I would try to make a serious effort to understand both denominations before you do anything. Even if you stay Methodist, knowing about Catholicism can't hurt (same for Methodism, if you decide to convert).

And of course, there is always the Western Branch of American Reform Presbylutheranism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Western_Branch_of_American_Reform_Presbylutheranism#The_Western_Branch_of_American_Reform_Presby lutheranism).

what are you doing to live out your own advice?
Nowhere near enough, probably. There's a locally based interfaith organisation I've been working with lately, and thanks to the university it's easy to get in touch with the different faith-based groups and attend (if not necessarily participate in) services with them. Truth be told, though, there's so much to study across them all that I really haven't given any particular faith the full chance it deserves at blasting my preconceptions out of the water. But who knows; maybe a post-grad in Theology will give me the time to do the necessary homework? :D

Are you willing to believe in an infallible Pope and all that entails?

The infallibility of the Pope is much less exciting than it sounds. There are enough rules and regulations that basically, the Pope is always infallible...when he's right.

Primarily is their veneration of the saints and particularly the Virgin Mary. While Mary may have been the tool through which the Messiah entered the world, she is certainly no different than you or I. To pray to her is to worship her,

Not true. Catholics do not pray to her, they petition her. Just like when a family member dies, and you fold your hands and close your eyes and speak to them. There's not really much different. Catholics don't worship her or the saints as a deity.

I'm just glad this didn't start with a "Catholic vs. Christian" debate.... :)

Guess which Church compiled the Bible?


Zing!

Zing!
Never heard of that Church before :p.

I have used the King James Version of the Bible as it is the earliest English rendition.

No it isn't. King Henry VIII had an official English version of the Bible published for use in the Church of England after passing the first Act of Supremacy. Before that official version, there were unauthorised translations floating about, written by Wycliffe and others. In terms of Bibles still in wide use today, the Douay-Rheims Bible was published before the King James Bible (the New Testament some 30 years before the King James Version and the Old Testament 2 years before). The King James translators referred to the Douay-Rheims Bible extensively in preparing their translation.

If you prefer one translation over all others, that's fine. If that is really your reason for preferring the King James Version, though, then your preference is based on false information which even a trivial amount of research about the translation would've dispelled.

We have already been given the perfect example.. There is no need to model ourselves after any other, as all humans are imperfect and subject to sin as were all of the saints. Jesus is the only perfect man.

Jesus was also God, though. Saints are examples of ordinary men and women who aspired to be as Christ-like as they could be, and were successful enough in order to be received into heaven.

Further, your criticism is more rhetoric than substance - it's poorly thought out. Human beings look to other human beings as examples all the time, in all fields of endeavour. I would be extremely surprised if you do not. Do you have no role model? Do you never look at somebody who is better than you at something you'd like to be good at and say "I wish I could be as good as that guy/girl"? Everybody does it, all the time. What is wrong with taking note of the life of a person who was an exceptional Christian as a good example?


The Protestants were Believers in God who saw the corruption of the Catholic Church. If you disagree. Then I would consider reading Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, A well known satire of the Catholic Church at the time.

Others have pointed out the nonsense of this particular point. To dismiss an entire religious movement as being motivated by the corruption of the religious organisation it ultimately broke away from is over-simplistic at best. I would never suggest that the only reason the first Protestant Reformers began the various Protestant churches was because a Medici was the Pope and priests were selling indulgences in Germany. These were people with deeply held beliefs which, by and large, they came to through a great deal of thought and study. Their objections were not just to the mere day-to-day petty corruption of the end of the Middle Ages. Saying that the Catholic Church was corrupt in the 16th Century doesn't justify Protestantism and I am convinced that Luther and the other reformers wouldn't want it to, either. The movements they started were far more substantial than that, however much one might disagree with them.


If you need any guidance in what to look for in a church, then refer to the Bible
So the best solution, is search for the closest Biblical Church.

Peter said unto them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38 KJV

Ah but which Bible shall we pick? Shall we take it with Deuterocanonicals or without? And where do we get this Bible? Ultimately, from God, but the instrument of delivery was the Church. Christians received the Bible through the Holy Spirit acting through the Church to compile it. Using a Bible obtained through the Catholic Church to refute the Catholic Church is... frankly stupid.

All Christians believe in the Bible (although they differ on which books ought to be included in it). For you to assert that Catholics are somehow unbiblical or ignore the canon of the Christian faith, a canon which the Catholic Church compiled, is either ignorance or bigotry. Ignorance if you've been told all these things by somebody else and have never bothered to think about them or research them yourself; bigotry if you are simply spreading misinformation about the majority of the world's Christians and the largest single religious denomination on Earth.

The original poster is asking for the genuine case for both Catholicism and Protestantism, and you and other posters like you are just attacking the other side of the coin. In my opinion, it's really sad if the only reason you're in one denomination is because you hate the other one. Clearly, the original poster is an open minded person who can see the merits of both Catholicism and Methodism. It is sad that you and a few others are so close minded.

I am a Catholic, although not a very good one. I am a Catholic because I believe that the Holy Spirit worked through the Apostles to spread the word of God. I am a Catholic because I believe that the Holy Spirit remained with the Church even after the Apostles died, and continues to work through it and through us all. I am a Catholic because I believe in a wonderful, mysterious but personal God who remains as deeply involved in the affairs of the world today as He was two thousand years ago. I hope my reasons are helpful to the original poster thinking about his own faith.

All i've seen over the last 4 pages is :

Catholics say this.. therefore it must be true

Protestants say the exact same thing, but the meaning is totally different.

Like i said in my 1st post, ALL RELIGION IS BS.

Think of the Bible this way, if AB told you that XY said this about that, but XY couldn't be found to confirm it one way or the other, logically is there any way you could prove that what AB was saying is the 100% truth? NO you can't. So Logically you can't 100% trust everything you read in the Bible, and since the vast majority of Western Religions is based on the Bible, logically the Western Religions are not 100% correct in their teachings.

My personal philosophy (and philosophy is what all religions really are when you boil them right down) is:
Do what ever the heck you want, as long as it:
1- Doesn't directly or indirectly hurt someone whether it's physically, mentally or emotionally; unless it is absolutely necessary to do so (i.e self-defense)
2- Is not Illegal in your place of existence.
3- Doesn't hurt animals needlessly (i.e: Blowing up frogs, chucking cats into rivers, dog-fighting, etc...)
4- Gives you happiness or contentment.

Once we've allowed time for Qaz to take a pill and calm down....


My previous slightly jokey posts in this thread aside, I'm still disappointed that this debate has been framed in terms of a Protestant v. Catholic dichotomy, with no real room for discussion of the option of Orthodoxy.

I lack the time to type out in detail why this should be a very real alternative for the OP, so I'll simply post some links for the curious:

1) An Orthodox Wiki (http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Main_Page)

2) The web page of the (fully canonical, if not universally recognised as autocephalous) Orthodox Church in America (http://www.oca.org) (an excellent resource for English language Orthodox theology).

3) The 'Orthodox photos' (http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/)page - which includes some excellent written theological resources.

4) And just to prove we Orthodox have a sense of humour, the Onion Dome (http://www.theoniondome.com/)


I realise that none of the above is ever going to convince people like Qaz who are convinced that all religion is bunk, but hopefully the links will prove useful to those - like the OP - who are interested in more fully exploring what mainstream Christianity has to offer.

having been raised as a Catholic and now being an agnostic, I have learned that it is not which church you go to, but the issue is iif you believe in a god . God has not created religion, man has, and in the process has confused the issue of faith. If you only want to go to Catholicism because of the saints or the Latin mass then I suggest to you to stay put, because these distractions don't bring you closer to a God than where you are now. God is within you, it's your soul, however you try to wrap it up in "pomp and circumstances" it's irrelevant to YOUR faith and to what you believe in, God doesn't ask for glorification, the church does. If there is a God then don't give him a name, believe in Him by believing in yourself, because he does know that; because he is within you. whether he is called God, Jehovah, Allah, Buddha or plain Hé You, he listens if that is what you wish to happen, because then you listen as well to what you want to happen and you make it happen. Good luck in finding your place in this world.

I know that I am a Protestant, but I am trying to decide if I should be a Catholic instead.

Start small. Go Anglican/Episcopalian and see how you like it. If it's just too nice for you, but still an improvement over Methodism, then go the Full Monty.

Once we've allowed time for Qaz to take a pill and calm down....

I realise that none of the above is ever going to convince people like Qaz who are convinced that all religion is bunk...

Like Baecken said in their post, religion is a man-made creation, not GOD's so inherently it is fallible, and therefore must be taken with a grain of salt.

I was Pentecostal from age 4 to 12, then some things happened to me, which i'm not going to go into here, and those things convinced me that any religion, is not going to help. Like I said once before in this thread, I do believe in GOD, just not any thing Man (in the human sense) has interpeted from his words.

You should just ignore all these people and become a muslim. Then you won't have to decide between Catholicism and Protestantism!

All those thinking that selling salvation in the form of Papal bulls was just and right, raise their hands....


Right, didn't think so. Luther was morally correct in nailing his Theses down.

Have there been abuses in every church? Probably. Have very good people disagreed vehemently over what was morally correct? Definitely (I've been reading about the historical schism between the Mennonite and Amish orders).


Right. Catholic Church has gotten a lot better since that time period, we Protestants also have our abuses. I was simply stating the root cause of the fracture at the time period is all.

I'm a penocostal ( a branch of protestant) and I say why listen to us and just go do research on some religions, go with the religion that make most sence to you.

Who really cares? All religion is BS anyway. Almost every war ever fought was over religion in someway. Do you really want to support something that has caused incaulcuable deaths over the last 6000 years or so? And this is coming from somwone who believes in GOD

So expound my point, I believe in GOD, but every religion to some point has it right. There is no one true religion, so my advice to you is, believe in what ever you want to believe, because odds are you could be right.

Many wars have been fought over religion. But most are fought over territory, meaning resources.

My previous slightly jokey posts in this thread aside, I'm still disappointed that this debate has been framed in terms of a Protestant v. Catholic dichotomy, with no real room for discussion of the option of Orthodoxy.

There's nothing wrong with the Eastern church -- but the OP laid out that he wanted to discuss Catholicism v. Protestantism -- not Orthodoxy, and not Atheism. That would be a fine discussion, but probably not within the scope of this particular thread.

Thank you, I'm glad someone knows about religions before they go opening there mouth. Catholics definitely do not worship Mary or the saints, to say otherwise is stereotypical prejudice against them. We merely venerate them for there parts in the Bible and there acts in life, so that we may act similarly in our own. They are hailed for there chastity, abstinence, liberality, diligence, kindness, patience, and humility, virtues that we wish to convey ourselves. They are venerated as great people, whose lives should be modeled after, but they are assuredly not worshipped as gods.


I would also like to add that the original topic was for catholics to give reasons why to become catholic and for protestants to give reasons why to stay protestant. As of yet there hasnt been a single protestant who gave reasons why protestantism is right, rather they have only given reasons why catholicism is wrong. Maybe rather than bashing another religion, which you know close to nothing about, you should be giving the positive aspects of your own.

At my catholic high school statues were given the occasional crown and bunches of flowers.

Personally I think the are both as invalid. But in my family one grandfather was Methodist, one was church of England. Both my grandmothers were catholic.

My opinion - you don't have to think when you attend a catholic church, you just recite the same words every time. If you like incense and gold leaf you will probably like catholic churches.

Also if you don't like change you will probably be happy as a catholic.

But if you are a believer then ask your self this - when you take a piece of bread and say a few words linked tot he last supper do you believe you are eating a piece of flesh or a piece of bread. Catholicism requires the former.

Look at some of the other issues where the two differ and decide where your beliefs lie.

There's nothing wrong with the Eastern church -- but the OP laid out that he wanted to discuss Catholicism v. Protestantism -- not Orthodoxy, and not Atheism. That would be a fine discussion, but probably not within the scope of this particular thread.

Out of intrest, there seems to be some catholic and prodestant posters who think that the other chruch is invalid. Seeing as you approve of the Eastern church, would you accept protestantism as well?
For me, I think denominations are a human division. The important thing is trust in Jesus and all the other theological differences are just quibbles.

For the past few weeks I have been considering my faith. I am a Methodist myself, but have always been interested in the practices and tradition of the catholic church.

Recently I have been confronted with a huge choice: Catholic or Protestant? I can't decide which denomination to choose. My whole family is protestant and I have been for years. I am a baptised and confirmed methodist. If I become a catholic, I will be faced with several problems such as leaving my friends at church, having to find my own way to church since my family will be going the other way, and the general annoyance of converting.

I love the catholic traditions like saints and latin masses. I have adopted several catholic beliefs myself. I feel as if I am the rope in a game of tug-of-war between Protestantism and Catholicism.

I can't really get any good advice either. If I ask the Protestants, they will say that I should be Protestant and if I ask the Catholics, they will say that I should be Catholic and anyone who is neutral will tell me to do what I think is best. I suppose the only one who really knows what I should do is God.

I wonder if you can help make this process easier for me? Catholics, why should I be Catholic? Protestants, why should I be Protestant? I want good reasons. Debate as if you are trying to convert me.

I am an atheist who was raised Methodist and went to a catholic school for 13 years. So I believe that I am qualified to answer your question. I beleive that all humans are really just hedonists no matter what beliefs they profess. So, in short, just do whatever the fuck you feel like. There you have it. No rocket science here.

Protestantism, of any form, is just lax Catholicism. The Church, although portrayed by liberal and protestant media as evil, has been the moral, social, and religious backbone of the western, and even eastern, world since its creation.

Now the main thing that people had a problem with which lead to the reformation was the rules. Yes there are rules, doctrine, commandments, but truly what religion doesn't have those?


Try attending a Catholic Tridintine mass and see how you like it.

Out of intrest, there seems to be some catholic and prodestant posters who think that the other chruch is invalid. Seeing as you approve of the Eastern church, would you accept protestantism as well?
For me, I think denominations are a human division. The important thing is trust in Jesus and all the other theological differences are just quibbles.

Then you and I are pretty much in agreement. My best friend, who is a Lutheran, is going to be my matron of honor, and one of the colleagues I am closest to at work is Greek Orthodox. Essentially, we're all Christians and while I wouldn't choose to change the way I worship, I disagree vehemently with the characterization that the Orthodox church is "wounded" for not following the Pope, or that Protestants are in any way less faithful. You and I might both prefer different routes to get to the same place, but as long as we get to the same place, does it matter if I prefer the Interstate over a County road? ;)

My reasons why Protestantism is better than Catholicism:

1. If the Catholic Church didn't constantly have it's horribly conservative head up it's ass, there wouldn't even be Protestantism or Orthodox sects.

2. Protestantism doesn't treat women as second class citizens.

3. My pastors have never molested or tried to molest me.

4. Please tell me what the hell is up with the horribly conservative view on sex? Seriously, what the hell? This ties in with reason #3.

5. Again, the issue of sex. While AIDS is ravaging across Africa and the rest of the world, the Pope is saying, "Con-damns are the devil! Choose abstinence instead!" Great. Thanks. You're definately doing the world some good there.

6. According to the Catholic's Nazi Pope, (Yes I can call him that) everyone who is not Catholic is going to hell. So I guess that means God doesn't love everyone after all. :rolleyes:

7. Indulgences. This goes back to reason #1 - The only reason there are other sects is because the Catholic church isn't good at running things.

8. Pope Alexander VI. Way to go.

9. General anti-gay attitude.

The general idea of Christianity and pretty much all ideas is how to live a better life and love your neighbors as you love yourselves.

And as far as I can tell, Protestantism (With the exception of a good number of Baptists) is a lot better than the Catholisism at doing this.

-doesnt' remember if he posted in here or not-

Go non-denominational. Or be like me, and separate yourself from all mainstream churches, and follow your own Christianity.

Then you and I are pretty much in agreement. My best friend, who is a Lutheran, is going to be my matron of honor, and one of the colleagues I am closest to at work is Greek Orthodox. Essentially, we're all Christians and while I wouldn't choose to change the way I worship, I disagree vehemently with the characterization that the Orthodox church is "wounded" for not following the Pope, or that Protestants are in any way less faithful. You and I might both prefer different routes to get to the same place, but as long as we get to the same place, does it matter if I prefer the Interstate over a County road? ;)

Exactly. Once again someone puts it much better than I have could :p
I do have two (semi-) intresting observations.

1. I am just back from East Germany. Over there churches of different dominations work very closely together because of the struggles they faced durring the commuinist era. I think that says a lot about the unity of Church (meaning the body of christians) underneath all our petty differences.

2. Back in N.Ireland, with all the troubles between protestandt and catholics, you might think that the two churches would have a difficult relationships. But the clergy really made an effort to emphaise the similarites and the basic underlying truths between the two dominations. Other than people like Paisly, I have never experience the whole "Catholic/Protestant" church is evil" within the actual churchs. This thread was one of the first times I have seen several people advocating that position.

Nothing.. forget it. Sorry

You forgot one:

Pope Pius XIIth never publicly spoke out against the Holocaust. If he had, possibly, the world(USA Mostly) would have acted upon Germany sooner and the war would ahve ended faster and perhaps, the Holocaust would not have taken as many victims as it did.

Granted at the time the Vatican was surrounded by the Nazis and/or Fascist Italy and Hitler or Mussonlini would have had him killed if he had publicly de-cried the Holocaust. However, without his public condemnation, Pope Pius XIIth, in my view at least, is culpable in the deaths of untold millions.

According to Wikipedia (so the accuracy of these figures is in some doubt), The Catholic Church in 1943 hid at least 477 Jews were hidden in the Vatican itself and at least another 4,238 were protected in Roman monasteries and convents. From Germany, Poland and Eastern Europe: The Church saved about 120-150,000.

So the Church helped save 160,000 of over 8 million interred people. If Pop Pius XII had spoken out at all, maybe only 2-3 million would have died insted of over 6 million.

I'm not saying that the Catholic Church was in any way culpable in the Holocaust, but they did not do as much as as they could have done.

Like the pope would have wanted to save Jews. That would have gone against 1500 years of tradition of killing jews!

For the past few weeks I have been considering my faith. I am a Methodist myself, but have always been interested in the practices and tradition of the catholic church.

Recently I have been confronted with a huge choice: Catholic or Protestant? I can't decide which denomination to choose. My whole family is protestant and I have been for years. I am a baptised and confirmed methodist. If I become a catholic, I will be faced with several problems such as leaving my friends at church, having to find my own way to church since my family will be going the other way, and the general annoyance of converting.

I love the catholic traditions like saints and Latin masses. I have adopted several catholic beliefs myself. I feel as if I am the rope in a game of tug-of-war between Protestantism and Catholicism.

I can't really get any good advice either. If I ask the Protestants, they will say that I should be Protestant and if I ask the Catholics, they will say that I should be Catholic and anyone who is neutral will tell me to do what I think is best. I suppose the only one who really knows what I should do is God.

I wonder if you can help make this process easier for me? Catholics, why should I be Catholic? Protestants, why should I be Protestant? I want good reasons. Debate as if you are trying to convert me.


First, let me disclose that I am Catholic. I believe that the Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus was talking about in Matthew -- "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build by church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"

Second, you seem like somebody who understands that the information people give you is influenced by their biases which stems from their personal beliefs. You already know that I'm Catholic, for instance, and by now I'm sure that you know that this forum is predominantly atheist/agnostic/anti-organized religion. So keep that in mind when you read all these responses.

As far as making your decision, I wont try to "convert" you but instead give you advice on making your decision. You should identify the main differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. Once you've done that, get both sides (it's extremely important to get both sides) of the story on each of the issues. For example, go to a Catholic website and learn about why they pray the Rosary. Then go to a Protestant website and learn why they don't. Also, be wary. Both Protestant and Catholic teachings get horribly misrepresented all the time -- by each other and by people who aren't Christian.

Here's a list of many of the dividing issues here to get you started:

Protestants believe if justification by faith alone. Catholics believe in Justification through faith along with works. "Faith working in love" is a term I've heard to describe the Catholic view. You'll really have to read up on this more to understand the nuances of the two different views. From scripture, Catholics usually site James chapter 2 and Protestants usually site a few passages in Romans to support their view.

Catholics believe in the communion of saints and the power of their intercessory prayer. Protestants believe that this distracts from Jesus and at worst can constitute saint worship.

Protestants believe in Solo Scriptura -- that the Bible alone is sufficient in teaching us God's word. Anything else is man-made and not from God. Catholics believe that God's revelation is transmitted to us not just through the Bible, but also through "Sacred Tradition" which was entrusted to the apostles by God and passed down through the Church. Catholics believe that the Bible and Sacred Tradition have the same source, God, and that only when the two work together can God's truth be best understood.

Catholics believe their bishops to be successors to the apostles and the Pope to be the successor to St. Peter. Protestants say that that isn't important.

Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit prevents the Pope from error when making a statement "Ex Cathedra". (look up that term for more details). Protestants say that this is not true and gives the Pope dangerous power.

The Eucharist is at the center of Catholic worship and is believed to be the actual Body and Blood of Chirst. For (most) Protestants communion is more of a commemoration and is only a symbol of the body and blood of Christ.

Catholics believe in the Sacraments. Protestants (for the most part) celebrate only marriage and baptism -- and even then generally don't view them the same way as Catholics.

The Catholic Bible has more books than the Protestant Bible. Protestants view these as uninspired.

Catholics believe the Bible to be inspired by the Holy Spirit but do not believe that it is always meant to be literally interpreted. Fundamentalists protestants disagree with that view, arguing that a non-literal view introduces man made interpretations and distracts from what God is actually trying to tell us.

Catholics believe in Purgatory, the perpetual virginity of the Virgin Mary, the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, the Immaculate Conception, Mary's "Immaculate Heart", and Jesus's "Sacred Heart". Protestants don't.

Many Catholics are open to the idea (though not required to believe!) that the Virgin Mary (and sometimes Jesus and other saints) still appears to us today and sometimes causes miracles. Guadalupe, Lourdes, and Fatima are the most famous examples. Protestants either believe these to have not actually occurred or to have been demonically inspired events.

On social issues, the Catholic Church is against homosexual acts (though they believe in 'loving the sinner, hating the sin') and abortion. Most protestant churches are also against homosexuality and abortion to varying degrees. However, the Catholic Church is also against artificial contraception whereas Protestant Churches are not. I'd recommend reading a book called "The Good News about Sex and Marriage" for a less dense explanation of Catholic teaching on sexuality. This might well be the most often misunderstood of Catholic teachings. I'm not sure what the Protestant argument for the use of contraception is, but I'm sure that you could look that up easily enough.

Catholics believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church which holds the Truth of Christ. Catholic detractors believe any number of things such as: they're "irrelevant men in old hats", "still Christians but misguided about some things", or even that the Catholic Church is the "Whore of Babylon" misguiding the world. Some say that the Catholic Church's teachings are dangerous or destructive to the world.

Anyway, Protestants and Catholics have a lot in common, as well, but these are many of the differences. There are many more. I urge you to do a lot of reading and, of course, a lot of praying. Be patient. A lot of times there are pretty convincing arguments for both sides of any given argument, so there might not be one "magic argument" that will decide things for you.

Finally, I'd like to say one thing. It matters what you believe! The Truth is not relative. Either the Catholic Church is right about what it says, or it's not. Either the Protestant Churches are right about what they say, or they are not.

I think there are LOTS of reasons to become Catholic. But in fact, I've never been a Protestant.

But that doesn't mean Catholics are right and Protestants are not. I just think some things should be discused and/or explained and some put in common. Every side has its point and we must listen each other, not just close to our point of view.

I just can recommend you to read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Rome-Sweet-Home-Journey-Catholicism/dp/0898704782 (Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism, by Scott & Kimberly Hann). They will at least give you some light about the differences, so you will be able too choose freely yourself.

All i've seen over the last 4 pages is :

Catholics say this.. therefore it must be true

Protestants say the exact same thing, but the meaning is totally different.

If that's what you've seen, then you didn't read very carefully or did not understand what you read.

Like the pope would have wanted to save Jews. That would have gone against 1500 years of tradition of killing jews!

Or, since Vatican City is located in the center of Rome, controlled by Mussolini, he might have thought "This is not the best time to start criticizing our allies because we might all be sent off to the camps too?"

Or, since Vatican City is located in the center of Rome, controlled by Mussolini, he might have thought "This is not the best time to start criticizing our allies because we might all be sent off to the camps too?"

In a country where 90% of people identified themselves as Catholic? Mussolini was never in a terribly strong position, he described himself as "the most disobeyed dictator in history" and he had been heavily dependant on the Vatican's support in coming to power. The simple truth is that Mussolini gave the Vatican what they'd wanted for years: significant control over education in Italy, regressive social policies (restrictions on contraception, fewer rights for women, etc.) and sovereign status for Vatican City.

The Catholics give you snacks, and I like their outfits and decorating better.

The Protestants give you more hugs, and have more picnics and swap-meets. For some reason they always seem to have better parking available, too.

For some reason they always seem to have better parking available, too.
The advantages of not having to send money off to Rome. ;)
*Flees the annoyed Catholics*

I'm Catholic..
Pretty big fan of it, just quietly.

Not huge on "preaching" or talking shit about other religions, so meh. Nonetheless, Catholicism FTW :D.

Its quite simple. Take on the religon you are giving at birth and stick with it. If it's the wrong one you can say it is not your fault and blame your parents, leaving you free from guilt.

There is one thing we are all forgetting:

CATHOLICS: Pancake Dinners

PROTESTANTS: No Pancake Dinners.


I'm wrong, Catholicism wins as pancakes rule!

well, it's that line.......

see, I do good works because I want to serve God, I have heard from some Catholics that "you work out your own salvation" and that God's grace is insufficient, and if you don't do all the stuff that they say then you can't get into heaven, and if you do, then you can because ultimately it's your job to get yourself there and God can't help you.

that came out incoherent....give me a few mintues to remember how to word it and I will be back.


This aspect of Catholicism is often confused even amongst Catholics. Here's an analogy that I think illustrates the Catholic view pretty well:

You, the lost sinner, are hopelessly stuck in a well. Left to your own devices you will never get out (damned) no matter how hard you claw at the walls and try to find footholds to get yourself out (trying to "work your way to heaven"). Along comes God and throws you down a rope (the rope signifies God's Grace). To get out you have to do a few things. You must believe that the rope really exists and is being held by Someone who not only exists but who is also able to pull you out and who you trust enough to not drop the rope when you are halfway up (faith). You have to realize that this rope is the only way out of the well and that you need to stop your useless clawing at the walls (realizing that you need God and can only be redeemed through Christ's sacrifice). Finally, you need to respond by climbing up the rope (living a Christian life by doing good works and turning your back on sin).

I think that James chapter 2 14-26 really gives a great summary of the Catholic view of the importance of works. The line that sticks out to me the most is "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works." This to me suggests that good works aren't just evidence of faith, but instead they work with faith and are a necessary component of faith. The Catholic view is that the two working together should be our response to God's grace.