NationStates Jolt Archive

When they stop acting like assholes.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/17/jews.christians/index.html

MELBOURNE, Florida (CNN) -- Sondra Oster Baras is an Orthodox Jew doing an unorthodox job.

"If you had asked me 10 years ago what I would be doing with my life, I don't think I would have told you I'd be in church," she said.

Baras stumps for money from evangelical Christians to support Jewish settlements in the occupied territories -- land she calls biblical Israel.

Crap like that is part of the reason there'll never be peace in that area.

She begs for money from Christians? And she calls herself a Jew! Disgraceful. Not to mention of course the total reprehensibility of the illegal settlements...

I am pro-Israel, but I do not support the settlements. The main reason is that I think that we need to make major concessions if we are to gain peace - in particular, to keep Jerusalem. If Israel were to agree to dismantle ALL the settlements, the Palestinians might be willing to let us have Jerusalem.

There are plenty of Israeli jerks. There are also plenty of Palestinian jerks. Peace will come when the jerks are out of power.

Right now, in Israel, the jerks are out of power. The current government is pro-negotiation. However, Hamas are classified as jerks, I believe, and the current prime minister is even less popular than Bush.

I am pro-Israel, but I do not support the settlements. The main reason is that I think that we need to make major concessions if we are to gain peace - in particular, to keep Jerusalem. If Israel were to agree to dismantle ALL the settlements, the Palestinians might be willing to let us have Jerusalem.

There are plenty of Israeli jerks. There are also plenty of Palestinian jerks. Peace will come when the jerks are out of power.

Right now, in Israel, the jerks are out of power. The current government is pro-negotiation. However, Hamas are classified as jerks, I believe, and the current prime minister is even less popular than Bush.

Israel's leadership, historically, has had a real problem in that they seem to think everything they do is completely justified. It gets really tiresome to read about another illegal settlement being built onto constantly. It's like kids squabbling in the sand box.

Wait , You think Israels an asshole because a jew who isn't Israeli is trying to raise up funds for occupied territory? ... Right i can totally see why you dislike Israel for this reason.

When they stop acting like assholes.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/17/jews.christians/index.html



Crap like that is part of the reason there'll never be peace in that area.

no you wouldnt.

you would just find another reason to not be sympathetic to israel.

do you hate northern ireland because there are northern irish who come to the US to recruit for money for "the cause"? (not that im sure they still do that but they used to).

the actions of one private citizen shouldnt sway you one way or the other in your regard for the country she is a citizen of.

no you wouldnt.

you would just find another reason to not be sympathetic to israel.

do you hate northern ireland because there are northern irish who come to the US to recruit for money for "the cause"? (not that im sure they still do that but they used to).

the actions of one private citizen shouldnt sway you one way or the other in your regard for the country she is a citizen of.

Is the Irish government building illegal settlements on someone else's territory?

No? Well then that shots that comparison straight to hell now don't it?

the actions of one private citizen shouldnt sway you one way or the other in your regard for the country she is a citizen of.
I don't agree with Israel, but it's true. One bad Israeli is not reason alone to not support the country.

I don't agree with Israel, but it's true. One bad Israeli is not reason alone to not support the country.

I think you'd have to be incredibly blind to ignore Israel's behavior for the last, almost 40 years now, and say "it's just one private citizen".

I think you'd have to be incredibly blind to ignore Israel's behavior for the last, almost 40 years now, and say "it's just one private citizen".

Well, its what people in the USA cling to about their own country despite history...

I think you'd have to be incredibly blind to ignore Israel's behavior for the last, almost 40 years now, and say "it's just one private citizen".
I'm not talking about being against Israel because of it's policy and this, I'm talking about being against Israel solely because of this.

Well, its what people in the USA cling to about their own country despite history...

Yeah, we are a bunch of bastards ain't we?

Is the Irish government building illegal settlements on someone else's territory?

No? Well then that shots that comparison straight to hell now don't it?

see? youve already done it.

when "soliciting funds for settlements" wasnt enough, you STILL have a reason to hate israel. you changed your reason.

if they stopped making settlements in the occupied territories, you would find another reason.

while israel is far from perfect, it is no more evil than any other country.

see? youve already done it.

when "soliciting funds for settlements" wasnt enough, you STILL have a reason to hate israel. you changed your reason.

if they stopped making settlements in the occupied territories, you would find another reason.

while israel is far from perfect, it is no more evil than any other country.

Uh, darlin, that's the same reason.

When they stop acting like assholes.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/17/jews.christians/index.html



Crap like that is part of the reason there'll never be peace in that area.

Jesus. There's a settlement. Get over it.

When they stop acting like assholes.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/17/jews.christians/index.html



Crap like that is part of the reason there'll never be peace in that area.

She's not an Ireali. She's not the Isreali government. Here's a picture of Isreali police forcibly removing settlers as they agreed to do under Oslo:

http://english.people.com.cn/200512/27/images/1226_A59.jpg

Uh, darlin, that's the same reason.

how so?

if you were hating israel over settlements why not link to an article about illegal settlements?

instead you indicate that you hate israelis coming over to the US to solicit funds from nutcase fundamentalist christian churches who think they have some kind of soulmate status with israel.

I thought Israel was swimming in money already from the US which just can't seem to throw money at the country fast enough. :p Now they need more? I thought they were making a killing off selling their excess ammo to the US...

If nothing else, this article reaffirms why I hate religion. It makes people say and do asinine shit to other people in the name of some mystical asshole who sits on his ass-cloud all day.

Jesus. There's a settlement. Get over it.
Sure. Why would anyone get pissed with the continual occupation and colonisation of their country, any way?

Sure. Why would anyone get pissed with the continual occupation and colonisation of their country, any way?

Umm, isn't it the Palestinians who are having their landed being taken away? I got nothing against the Israelis, but they gotta give something back.

Umm, isn't it the Palestinians who are having their landed being taken away? I got nothing against the Israelis, but they gotta give something back.
Yeah. I got the impression from your post that you were being dismissive of Israeli settlements. Perhaps I missed sarcasm? :confused:

I really am confused today...

Since when did one nut job represent the state of Israel? Ok, for now on, I hate america since Fred Phelps exists.

while israel is far from perfect, it is no more evil than any other country.

Luxembourg?

When they stop acting like assholes.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/17/jews.christians/index.html

Crap like that is part of the reason there'll never be peace in that area.

There are many reasons to dislike Israel. This, however, is not one of them. She's not even Israeli.

how so?

if you were hating israel over settlements why not link to an article about illegal settlements?

instead you indicate that you hate israelis coming over to the US to solicit funds from nutcase fundamentalist christian churches who think they have some kind of soulmate status with israel.

Maybe I ought use smaller words. The idiot in the article is here soliciting money to fund expansion of an illegal settlement.


I'm sorry if simple connections confuse you, but that's really not my problem.

you know, you would think that after THOUSANDS of years of a history of being oppressed, suppressed, enslaved, relocated, nearly exterminated


you would think that maybe


JUST MAYBE


people would begin to cut the Israelis some slack


but no, ooooooooooooooooh no, people continue to bitch about those evil Israelis

and about what?


some stupid little settlements


heaven forbid the Israelis try to secure for themselves a sense of stability and security that the world has robbed them of since the creation of mankind

you know, you would think that after THOUSANDS of years of a history of being oppressed, suppressed, enslaved, relocated, nearly exterminated


you would think that maybe


JUST MAYBE


people would begin to cut the Israelis some slack


but no, ooooooooooooooooh no, people continue to bitch about those evil Israelis

and about what?


some stupid little settlements


heaven forbid the Israelis try to secure for themselves a sense of stability and security that the world has robbed them of since the creation of mankind

You know, I really don't care about Israel itself. They bought up the land legitimately and can do whatever they like. When they start grabbing up land from neighboring countries and building settlements there they lose all right to whine about being oppressed.

...if it wasn't for this Jewish guy who stole my girlfriend a few years back. Arsehole.

you know, you would think that after THOUSANDS of years of a history of being oppressed, suppressed, enslaved, relocated, nearly exterminated


you would think that maybe


JUST MAYBE


people would begin to cut the Israelis some slack


but no, ooooooooooooooooh no, people continue to bitch about those evil Israelis

and about what?


some stupid little settlements


heaven forbid the Israelis try to secure for themselves a sense of stability and security that the world has robbed them of since the creation of mankind

Heaven forbid the Israelis adhere to international law, stop an illegal occupation, stop restricting the freedom of movement of the palestinians, stop the extrajudicial killings, stop the carving up and theft of palestinian lands. :rolleyes:

It's not "little" settlements either. (More than 450,000 people in total on the west bank, including east Jerusalem.)

I will not give Israel any slack while they defy international law and continue an illegal occupation, killing and generally hurting palestinians while they're doing so, as I won't give the palestinians any slack while they're using terror as a tool and attack innocent Israeli citizens.

Two wrongs does not make a right. Just because the jewish people suffered in the past does not make them immune for criticism for their abhorrent acts today.

you know, you would think that after THOUSANDS of years of a history of being oppressed, suppressed, enslaved, relocated, nearly exterminated


you would think that maybe


JUST MAYBE


people would begin to cut the Israelis some slack


but no, ooooooooooooooooh no, people continue to bitch about those evil Israelis

and about what?


some stupid little settlements


heaven forbid the Israelis try to secure for themselves a sense of stability and security that the world has robbed them of since the creation of mankind

Oh their ancestors were oppressed, now they can do anything they want :rolleyes:. If anybody who's ancestors were oppressed/exterminated/whatnot could do anything they want it wouldn't end good.

You know, I really don't care about Israel itself. They bought up the land legitimately and can do whatever they like. When they start grabbing up land from neighboring countries and building settlements there they lose all right to whine about being oppressed.

Actually, you are incorrect


this "illegally obtained" land that you speak of was added to Israel after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, when Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon all attacked Israel, unprovoked, may I add.

So yes, Israel has full legitimacy over these "territories"

I see nothing wrong with that.

Plus, Israel has never, NEVER declared that they will not rest until every single Palestinian lies dead. However, you have official political groups like Hamas who VOW to destroy the state of Israel, and continually attack innocent civilians.

Maybe I ought use smaller words. The idiot in the article is here soliciting money to fund expansion of an illegal settlement.


I'm sorry if simple connections confuse you, but that's really not my problem.

oohhh i see.

so you will be a lot more sympathetic to israel when it stops building settlements in the occupied territories.

a woman soliciting funds has nothing to do with anything. you were just reading the cnn website and the article reminded you of how disappointed you are in israel. so you posted a thread about the article but it isnt really what youre upset about at all.

and this is the ONLY issue that you have with israel...the settlements in the occupied territories. if they stopped that, you would suddenly see that israel is just defending herself.

yeah ok, i believe that.

Oh their ancestors were oppressed, now they can do anything they want :rolleyes:. If anybody who's ancestors were oppressed/exterminated/whatnot could do anything they want it wouldn't end good.

Though I believe anyone can do anything he or she wants by default (so long as it's not bending a tank cannon with your mind), I have to say that I am also anti-Israel. Not in the sense that the Aryan Nation is anti-Israel, of course, but only in the sense that I disagree with our continued support of ANY outside nation; particularly when the reasons are clearly religious in nature.

I'll never be sympathetic towards that government again. They use history, and religion to promote their apartheid, hatred, and war against the Palestinians. I hate how Christians in America are supporting Israel, which in turns goes into Palestine and kills many people, including Palestinian Christians. They hypocrisy of American Christians in this situation is intolerable.

Actually, you are incorrect


this "illegally obtained" land that you speak of was added to Israel after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, when Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon all attacked Israel, unprovoked, may I add.

So yes, Israel has full legitimacy over these "territories"

I see nothing wrong with that.

Plus, Israel has never, NEVER declared that they will not rest until every single Palestinian lies dead. However, you have official political groups like Hamas who VOW to destroy the state of Israel, and continually attack innocent civilians.

I'm confused, did I ever say the Palestinians were any better? "Part of the reason there will never be peace in that area", did you read that part or gloss over it in a rabid drive to assume I'm anti-semitic?

you know, you would think that after THOUSANDS of years of a history of being oppressed, suppressed, enslaved, relocated, nearly exterminated


you would think that maybe


JUST MAYBE


people would begin to cut the Israelis some slack


but no, ooooooooooooooooh no, people continue to bitch about those evil Israelis

and about what?


some stupid little settlements


heaven forbid the Israelis try to secure for themselves a sense of stability and security that the world has robbed them of since the creation of mankind


Yes, poor little Jews. They are so mistreated.:rolleyes:

How about the exploitations of third world countries for hundreds of years? The genocide against native populations in the Americas, and the Caribbean? FFS, for once, think about the people that are still being exploited, killed, and oppressed. The Jews have their little ancient homeland. They have the most powerful nation in the world supporting them. They need no sympathy, nor be taken off a leash to do as they please.

She's not an Ireali. She's not the Isreali government. Here's a picture of Isreali police forcibly removing settlers as they agreed to do under Oslo:.

Since Oslo the number of settlers has gone into hundreds of thousands. What they've done since is withdraw from the most difficult to maintain settlements to concentrate on Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank

...if it wasn't for this Jewish guy who stole my girlfriend a few years back. Arsehole.:.

O look. A genius trying to throw in the old "U HAYTE J00S" card. Pathetic.

this "illegally obtained" land that you speak of was added to Israel after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, when Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon all attacked Israel, unprovoked, may I add.So yes, Israel has full legitimacy over these "territories"
.:.

1967, Iraq wasn't involved as far as I recall and no, according to the rest of the world they do not. I suggest you educate yourself on the matter.

and this is the ONLY issue that you have with israel...the settlements in the occupied territories. if they stopped that, you would suddenly see that israel is just defending herself..:.

Well theres a far better chance of that when they stop building semi-detached housing for their citizens on other peoples land, I'd imagine.

I'll never be sympathetic towards that government again. They use history, and religion to promote their apartheid, hatred, and war against the Palestinians. I hate how Christians in America are supporting Israel, which in turns goes into Palestine and kills many people, including Palestinian Christians. They hypocrisy of American Christians in this situation is intolerable...:.

Well Said Sir. I see you've seen the light (or the lack thereof).

oohhh i see.

so you will be a lot more sympathetic to israel when it stops building settlements in the occupied territories.

a woman soliciting funds has nothing to do with anything. you were just reading the cnn website and the article reminded you of how disappointed you are in israel. so you posted a thread about the article but it isnt really what youre upset about at all.

and this is the ONLY issue that you have with israel...the settlements in the occupied territories. if they stopped that, you would suddenly see that israel is just defending herself.

yeah ok, i believe that.

Good for you, what you believe isn't particularly relevant to me. Now totter along and bother someone else.

Fucking laughable really. If the Chinese were going round collecting funds to plant their people on Tibetan land it'd be "O Horror" but because its a US ally, somehow slow-drip ethnic cleansing is ok.

Fucking laughable really. If the Chinese were going round collecting funds to plant their people on Tibetan land it'd be "O Horror" but because its a US ally, somehow slow-drip ethnic cleansing is ok.

God isn't on the Chinese side afterall. :rolleyes:

O look. A genius trying to throw in the old "U HAYTE J00S" card. Pathetic.

Oh what a surprise, rather than trying to engage with any arguments you simply harange and insult everyone who dares to disagree with you. The fact that you seem to consider this to be 'debate' is the only pathetic thing here. Let me explain the thread in short words and then maybe you'll be able to understand it.

Khadgar: Here's a non-Israeli Jew doing something bad.

Everyone else: That's bloody stupid, there are good reasons to criticise Israel but the actions of one non-Israeli aren't one of them.

Me: [Sarcastic take on OP's logic]

Nodina: OMG!!! U're playing teh j00 card!1!

The OP has since tried to change the focus of the thread, but the fact remains that their starting argument was stupid. I've got better things to do than talk to someone like you who's apparently incapable of civil discourse.

Well, they're too brown/yellow to get the "O, They're like us" crap going. For instance there seemed to be a remarkable number of pale people with American accents being hauled out of gaza that time (now to be found taking it out on the West Bank).

I'm confused, did I ever say the Palestinians were any better? "Part of the reason there will never be peace in that area", did you read that part or gloss over it in a rabid drive to assume I'm anti-semitic?

sigh, i'm not saying that you are anti-semitic or anything of that nature


here's an example that i would like for you to consider


it's like this:

When two guys are wrestling, you have Guy A and Guy B, if you will


well, Guy B takes a move on Guy A, but Guy A reverses it, and gets Guy B pinned on the floor

now, Guy A would love nothing more than to end the round, but Guy B is claiming that as soon as Guy A releases him, he's gonna kick his ass

so Guy A remains on top of Guy B, keeping him pinned so as not to "get his ass kicked"


same with Israel. Why would they move out of territories that the currently elected government of said territories keeps proclaiming that they will not rest until Israel is destroyed? It just doesn't make any sense

I'll never be sympathetic towards that government again. They use history, and religion to promote their apartheid, hatred, and war against the Palestinians.

No they don't. I can't believe people buy into this bullshit whining Jews conspiracy, they have never used history to justfiy any policy of theirs, I have no idea how this nazi lie got spread around and accepted so quickly.

Oh what a surprise, rather than trying to engage with any arguments you simply harange and insult everyone who dares to disagree with you.

Allow me to go over something - this is you to Khadgar or "Arsehole" as you call him here-


...if it wasn't for this Jewish guy who stole my girlfriend a few years back. Arsehole.:.

I then reply to you

O look. A genius trying to throw in the old "U HAYTE J00S" card. Pathetic.

Thats what you were doing, and it was you throwing out the insults. If you can find an insult in that post other than the jibe directed at you, please feel free to quote it. Otherwise dry your eyes and seek emotional support.

No they don't. I can't believe people buy into this bullshit whining Jews conspiracy, they have never used history to justfiy any policy of theirs, I have no idea how this nazi lie got spread around and accepted so quickly.

Ok then....How do they justify the settlements, just to keep it relatively on topic...

Allow me to go over something - this is you to Khadgar or "Arsehole" as you call him here-




I then reply to you



Thats what you were doing, and it was you throwing out the insults. If you can find an insult in that post other than the jibe directed at you, please feel free to quote it. Otherwise dry your eyes and seek emotional support.

sarcasm is an appropriate response to a stupid OP.

or did you think that he really DID have a girlfriend who dumped him for a jewish guy?

Yeah. I got the impression from your post that you were being dismissive of Israeli settlements. Perhaps I missed sarcasm? :confused:

I really am confused today...

I meant settlement as in peace treaty.

Ok then....How do they justify the settlements, just to keep it relatively on topic...

Many reasons, they didn't justify as such but say it is legally theirs since they obtained it from various offensives etc... Thousands of countries around the world expand and grab lands from others during times of war even in the 20th century and you rarely see people whining about their past actions, they just accept that the land is theirs now (I'm not saying it is right). Anyway this is irrelevant and largely debatable, but the point is that they don't use past oppression to justify anything.

Allow me to go over something - this is you to Khadgar or "Arsehole" as you call him here-


I then reply to you

Thats what you were doing, and it was you throwing out the insults. If you can find an insult in that post other than the jibe directed at you, please feel free to quote it. Otherwise dry your eyes and seek emotional support.

I didn't intend to reply to this thread but this is such a blatant distortion of what I said that I'm not prepared to let it stand. I suggest you brush up on your reading comprehension, specifically the concept of "context".

"You know, I'll be a lot more sympathetic towards Israel if it wasn't for this Jewish guy who stole my girlfriend a few years back. Arsehole."

From the context of this it should be fairly obvious that the 'arsehole' comment was addressed to the imaginary semitic philanderer, not to Khadgar, and that it was intended as a mildly humorous aside.

No they don't. I can't believe people buy into this bullshit whining Jews conspiracy, they have never used history to justfiy any policy of theirs, I have no idea how this nazi lie got spread around and accepted so quickly.

I said nothing about Nazis or reference to the Holocaust. I was referencing to the idea that all that land belongs to them, because it was their ancient homeland some 2000 years ago. They use that to justify the gradual extermination of the Palestinians.

I said nothing about Nazis or reference to the Holocaust. I was referencing to the idea that all that land belongs to them, because it was their ancient homeland some 2000 years ago. They use that to justify the gradual extermination of the Palestinians.

No they don't. The British may have used it to justify the creation of Israel, but that was ages ago and Israelis certainly don't take that claim particularly seriously any more, or at least don't pretend it is a valid reason.

They use that to justify the gradual extermination of the Palestinians.

They're not doing a very good job of it, the Palestinian population is increasing IIRC.

No they don't. The British may have used it to justify the creation of Israel, but that was ages ago and Israelis certainly don't take that claim particularly seriously any more, or at least don't pretend it is a valid reason.

Because certainly, things said or done in the past have no bearing on today, right?:rolleyes:

They're not doing a very good job of it, the Palestinian population is increasing IIRC.

Mujahadeen that cross into the Palestinian territory to fight Israel does not count towards the growth of the actual Palestinian people.

Because certainly, things said or done in the past have no bearing on today, right?:rolleyes:

What you said is the same as me saying "the American government still supports the slave trade", just because they did in the past doesn't mean they do now. So it's a stupid reason to hate the American government, and in the same way it's stupid to hate the Israeli government of today for some of the reasons that you mentioned.

Mujahadeen that cross into the Palestinian territory to fight Israel does not count towards the growth of the actual Palestinian people.

;)

The West Bank has a population of ~2,536,000 and a population growth rate of ~3%.

Gaza has a population of ~1,080,000 and a population growth rate of ~3.7%.

Overall, this means we're seeing an increase of ~115,630 people p.a. With that many new fighters coming in every year it's amazing that they haven't crushed Israel yet. Of course, some boring people might suggest that the growth rate is due to, you know, babies? If Wikipedia is to be trusted then the birth rate is nearly ten times the death rate.

When they stop acting like assholes.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/17/jews.christians/index.html



Crap like that is part of the reason there'll never be peace in that area.

Get over it. The Palestinians electing a terorrist group to power is just a clear indication that they will not stop until every last Israeli is dead, or they themselves are dead.

And you know what? Israel has the military to pull it off, but not vice-versa. I have no sympathy for people who elect terrorists. (Just goes to show the failure of democracy...)

Get over it. The Palestinians electing a terorrist group to power is just a clear indication that they will not stop until every last Israeli is dead, or they themselves are dead.

And you know what? Israel has the military to pull it off, but not vice-versa. I have no sympathy for people who elect terrorists. (Just goes to show the failure of democracy...)

I couldn't agree with you more

(except for the "failure of democracy" part) :)

I couldn't agree with you more

(except for the "failure of democracy" part) :)

Well, I figure it's failed when the people end up electing, essentially, non-democrats to power. Same when the Nazi's took over in Germany. They got elected, and then took apart the democracy from within. Or in the case of Hamas, well, they just took it over, and let the shooting begin...

Many reasons, they didn't justify as such but say it is legally theirs since they obtained it from various offensives etc... Thousands of countries around the world expand and grab lands from others during times of war even in the 20th century and you rarely see people whining about their past actions, they just accept that the land is theirs now (I'm not saying it is right). Anyway this is irrelevant and largely debatable, but the point is that they don't use past oppression to justify anything.

"History" was the expression he used, not "oppression.

They use history, and religion to promote their apartheid

This is from a settler website
This is the opportunity of a life time! This is Zionism. Helping the Jewish People to make aliyah, and helping the Jewish People to reclaim our heritage and destiny, as we lay claim to our God given sovereignty over the majestic rocky hills of Binyamin, the heartland of Biblical Israel. All who are interested should send us their name, phone number, and email along with any questions you have to

http://www.geocities.com/yourgarin/maalei_shlomo.htm (http://www.geocities.com/yourgarin/maalei_shlomo.htm)

and another.....
Historically, the area is replete with Biblical scenes and stories of heroism and bravery starting with the time of our forefathers. It was here that Abraham and Isaac passed through on their sojourn from Hebron to Mount Moriah, in its pastoral landscape Ruth gathered the sheaves from the fields of Bethlehem, upon its hilltops David shepherded his father`s sheep and then went on to proclaim his kingdom, and in its deep caves the Maccabees and the Jewish fighters of Bar Kochba sought shelter.

http://www.gush-etzion.org.il/history.asp


From the context of this it should be fairly obvious that the 'arsehole' comment was addressed to the imaginary semitic philanderer, not to Khadgar, and that it was intended as a mildly humorous aside.

Really? Doesn't read that way to me.

Get over it. The Palestinians electing a terorrist group to power is just a clear indication that they will not stop until every last Israeli is dead, or they themselves are dead.


As Israel has elected a number of ex-"terrorists" in its day, do we include them as being as you describe towards the Palestinians?

Well, I figure it's failed when the people end up electing, essentially, non-democrats to power. Same when the Nazi's took over in Germany. They got elected, and then took apart the democracy from within. Or in the case of Hamas, well, they just took it over, and let the shooting begin...

the situation in the middle east is so much more complicated than "israel sucks" and "the palestinians elected terrorists"

the palestinians were sick of the corupt fatah party so they elected hamas in protest. *shrug* not a great alternative but what else could they do?

"History" was the expression he used, not "oppression.


It's still equal in bullshit. They still don't use it whatsoever to justify any policy. Not religion either.


This is from a settler website


http://www.geocities.com/yourgarin/maalei_shlomo.htm (http://www.geocities.com/yourgarin/maalei_shlomo.htm)

and another.....


http://www.gush-etzion.org.il/history.asp


As repeated countless times, these wackjobs do not represent the Israeli government, so the irrelevency is so massive I don't see why this thread was started in the first place.

the situation in the middle east is so much more complicated than "israel sucks" and "the palestinians elected terrorists"

the palestinians were sick of the corupt fatah party so they elected hamas in protest. *shrug* not a great alternative but what else could they do?

Well they could have made a new party, neither corrupt, nor terrorist.

Well they could have made a new party, neither corrupt, nor terrorist.

if they had worked at it for a decade or 2, perhaps. it seems they didnt want to wait that long.

Well, I figure it's failed when the people end up electing, essentially, non-democrats to power. Same when the Nazi's took over in Germany. They got elected, and then took apart the democracy from within. Or in the case of Hamas, well, they just took it over, and let the shooting begin...

well in that aspect i agree with you

It's still equal in bullshit. They still don't use it whatsoever to justify any policy. Not religion either.

As repeated countless times, these wackjobs do not represent the Israeli government, so the irrelevency is so massive I don't see why this thread was started in the first place.


They represent the settlers. The thread was about support for the settlers. The settlers are in the occupied territories where the semi-apartheid conditions exist. They use it to justify settlement, and backing settlements has been de facto policy for over four decades....All relevant and shows the use of history to justify modern oppression as the man said. Screaming it ain't so won't change the facts.

They represent the settlers.

Really? Prove this.

This thread was about Israel, hence "i'll be a lot more sympathetic towards Israel" as the title. So even if the settlers thought they were justified to settle there (why anyone would give a shit is beyond me), they do not represent the whole of Israel.

Really? Prove this.

This thread was about Israel, hence "i'll be a lot more sympathetic towards Israel" as the title. So even if the settlers thought they were justified to settle there (why anyone would give a shit is beyond me), they do not represent the whole of Israel.

It does represent Israel though. You see, its the view of the government, and we all know that Israel is a democracy, therefore elected by people who share similar ideas and values.

It does represent Israel though. You see, its the view of the government, and we all know that Israel is a democracy, therefore elected by people who share similar ideas and values.

The settlers are not the majority of voters. Also, even if they were, they will only vote for someone that keeps them there. This doesn't mean they vote for people who use history or religion to justify what they are doing.

you know, you would think that after THOUSANDS of years of a history of being oppressed, suppressed, enslaved, relocated, nearly exterminated


you would think that maybe


JUST MAYBE


people would begin to cut the Israelis some slack

Huh? Oh, I get it. You're equating "Israel" with "Jews." That way if I criticize Israel, I am actually an anti-Semitic Jew-hater.

Nice tactic, but Israel is also home to Muslims, Christians and Druzes, the majority of local Arab background, well as a other minority groups.

but no, ooooooooooooooooh no, people continue to bitch about those evil Israelis

and about what?


some stupid little settlements

That's a pretty silly attempt to dismiss the entire Israel-Palestine situation.

heaven forbid the Israelis try to secure for themselves a sense of stability and security that the world has robbed them of since the creation of mankind

Israel has existed not even a hundred years. Hardly "since the creation of mankind." Unless you're like some really strange Creationist who thinks the world is actually only 59 years old.

But this wasn't a very good justification either. Seriously, it's OK to do fuck-all as long as you're "trying to secure" a "sense of stability and security?" Worst-ever argument for fascism and militant authoritarianism. It's like saying all Nazi Germany wanted was "breathing room."

Huh? Oh, I get it. You're equating "Israel" with "Jews." That way if I criticize Israel, I am actually an anti-Semitic Jew-hater.

Nice tactic, but Israel is also home to Muslims, Christians and Druzes, the majority of local Arab background, well as a other minority groups.



That's a pretty silly attempt to dismiss the entire Israel-Palestine situation.



Israel has existed not even a hundred years. Hardly "since the creation of mankind." Unless you're like some really strange Creationist who thinks the world is actually only 59 years old.

But this wasn't a very good justification either. Seriously, it's OK to do fuck-all as long as you're "trying to secure" a "sense of stability and security?" Worst-ever argument for fascism and militant authoritarianism. It's like saying all Nazi Germany wanted was "breathing room."

no i'm not equating people who are against Israel as anti-semitic, i made that very clear earlier in this thread. i am making absolutely no personal attacks on that front

and yes, i am simply equating Israel to jews because of the overwhelming majority of Israelis are jewish.

And mankinds history has really only spanded for a little over roughly thousands years (i'm talking about recorded history mind you, nothing creationist about that at all)


and honestly, it's not that the Israelis are doing a "fuck all" tactic here. They are defending themselves from a group that has OPENLY and OFFICIALLY stated that they will not rest until Israel is DESTROYED.

Now i don't know what that might do to you, but to me, that would make me take a couple of extra precautions, even if it means proactively engaging in preemptive measures

especially since that said terrorist group is known for its abhorrent violence against the Israeli population (mostly targeted at the Jews)


that was the point that i was merely making, nothing more, nothing less

no i'm not equating people who are against Israel as anti-semitic, i made that very clear earlier in this thread. i am making absolutely no personal attacks on that front

and yes, i am simply equating Israel to jews because of the overwhelming majority of Israelis are jewish.

Don't you see, you DO equate people who are against Israel as anti-semitic, because if you equate Israel with Jews, then opposing Israel means you oppose Jews. You can't have it both ways.


and honestly, it's not that the Israelis are doing a "fuck all" tactic here. They are defending themselves from a group that has OPENLY and OFFICIALLY stated that they will not rest until Israel is DESTROYED.

Oh, is that what the settlers said? How about that Palestinian woman got run over by a Merkava? I suppose she was an invading enemy too?

This is the same kind of "defending yourself" that America is doing in Iraq. The excuses are beginning to look all the same. "Help the Muslims are out to get us! We're just defending ourselves!"

Now i don't know what that might do to you, but to me, that would make me take a couple of extra precautions, even if it means proactively engaging in preemptive measures

To me that sounds a lot like the invasion of Poland. You know, because of all the Jews in Poland. Didn't you know, that "Jews declared war on Germany?" This is a GROUP that OFFICIALLY STATED it was at WAR with Germany!

Therefore Germany needed to "proactively engage in preemptive measures."

See how that works? You can justify anything if you just claim to be under attack. Convenient, but flimsy.

especially since that said terrorist group is known for its abhorrent violence against the Israeli population (mostly targeted at the Jews)

Oh, I like how Palestine suddenly became a "terrorist group."

that was the point that i was merely making, nothing more, nothing less

I know. And I shredded your point.

Don't you see, you DO equate people who are against Israel as anti-semitic, because if you equate Israel with Jews, then opposing Israel means you oppose Jews. You can't have it both ways.


that makes about as much sense as saying that if you are against the US and its Iraq policies, than you hate Americans.

Seriously dude, get real


Oh, is that what the settlers said? How about that Palestinian woman got run over by a Merkava? I suppose she was an invading enemy too?

This is the same kind of "defending yourself" that America is doing in Iraq. The excuses are beginning to look all the same. "Help the Muslims are out to get us! We're just defending ourselves!"

The unfortunate part of any conflict is that innocents on BOTH sides are injured or worse. However, the conflict will continue so long as Hamas and other terrorist organizations continue to attack Israel.



To me that sounds a lot like the invasion of Poland. You know, because of all the Jews in Poland. Didn't you know, that "Jews declared war on Germany?" This is a GROUP that OFFICIALLY STATED it was at WAR with Germany!

Therefore Germany needed to "proactively engage in preemptive measures."

See how that works? You can justify anything if you just claim to be under attack. Convenient, but flimsy.

Actually, you are completely wrong. In fact, Hitler tried to make it look like poland invaded germany first by staging a poorly crafted little polish-led germany invasion that was made up of all german military.

It was the Invasion of Poland that sparked the war, not the other way around. Learn your history, and get your facts straight.


Oh, I like how Palestine suddenly became a "terrorist group."

Uhm, I didn't say that Palestine was a terrorist group. However, the Unity Government of Palestine is constituted of known terrorists, ADMITTED terrorists. Palestine itself is a mixture of innocents and terrorists, there can be no doubt. But my reference was mainly to Hamas.


I know. And I shredded your point.

Only in your mind, I assure you

that makes about as much sense as saying that if you are against the US and its Iraq policies, than you hate Americans.

Seriously dude, get real

I'm as real as a jackboot to the face. Look, if I say "Israel is corrupt and dangerous" that's criticism and judgement. If I say "Jews are corrupt and dangerous" that's bigotry. What you are trying to do, by equating Israel with Jews, is turn any criticism or judgement into bigotry.

The unfortunate part of any conflict is that innocents on BOTH sides are injured or worse. However, the conflict will continue so long as Hamas and other terrorist organizations continue to attack Israel.

The conflict will continue so long as Israel continues to wage it's war on Palestinians.

Actually, you are completely wrong. In fact, Hitler tried to make it look like poland invaded germany first by staging a poorly crafted little polish-led germany invasion that was made up of all german military.

Right, because if Germany is being "attacked," then anything in "defense" against that is justified. Just like you are trying to justify by claiming Israel is simply defending itself.

It was the Invasion of Poland that sparked the war, not the other way around. Learn your history, and get your facts straight.

Someone missed the point. I think that someone is you.

Uhm, I didn't say that Palestine was a terrorist group. However, the Unity Government of Palestine is constituted of known terrorists, ADMITTED terrorists. Palestine itself is a mixture of innocents and terrorists, there can be no doubt. But my reference was mainly to Hamas.

Ah, so when you say that displacing settlers is just defending against a terrorist group, you are saying that those settlers are Hamas terrorists and thus it is justified.

Only in your mind, I assure you

I think your assurances on this matter are about as convincing as your arguments.

I'm as real as a jackboot to the face. Look, if I say "Israel is corrupt and dangerous" that's criticism and judgement. If I say "Jews are corrupt and dangerous" that's bigotry. What you are trying to do, by equating Israel with Jews, is turn any criticism or judgement into bigotry.


Okay, seriously, that's so immature and illogical. The context of my comment was just simply that after all the bullshit that the jews (aka MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS, and were the reason why the state of Israel was created in the first place, again, learn your history) have been through, i think that all this bitching about some settlements is superfluous. If you wish to make the connection between Israel and Jews in YOUR statement, then fine, but I am not, i only made the connection in MY statement. Learn some context.

The conflict will continue so long as Israel continues to wage it's war on Palestinians.

Right, because it's the Israeli state that has officially said it won't rest until Palestine is destroyed. Oh wait, that's right, it was Hamas, the ruling party of Palestine.


Right, because if Germany is being "attacked," then anything in "defense" against that is justified. Just like you are trying to justify by claiming Israel is simply defending itself.



Someone missed the point. I think that someone is you.

No, the point is that IF poland had REALLY invaded Germany, than yes, Germany would have been right in counter-invading the nation. THE POINT is that that is exactly what Hitler was going for, so he construed a plan to make it look like Poland invaded him because it would have been INTERNATIONALLY ACCEPTABLE for him to defend his people. That's the point. Israel REALLY WAS invaded, and as a result, they counter invaded (because they had the military capability to do so) to secure their borders. That's pretty typical in any major war.


Ah, so when you say that displacing settlers is just defending against a terrorist group, you are saying that those settlers are Hamas terrorists and thus it is justified.

Not exactly. But Hamas works amongst its settlements, using sleeper cells, what have you. Israel is simply trying to secure its people. There is nothing wrong with that.


I think your assurances on this matter are about as convincing as your arguments.

Well thank you!

Uhm, I didn't say that Palestine was a terrorist group. However, the Unity Government of Palestine is constituted of known terrorists, ADMITTED terrorists. Palestine itself is a mixture of innocents and terrorists, there can be no doubt. But my reference was mainly to Hamas.


Yeah, because having known or "admitted" terrorists in government can never work...... just don't tell that to South Africa, Northern Ireland, East Timor etc etc

Okay, seriously, that's so immature and illogical.

Neither.

If A=B, then criticism of B is criticism of A.

The context of my comment was just simply that after all the bullshit that the jews (aka MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS, and were the reason why the state of Israel was created in the first place, again, learn your history)

I tire of your ad hominems. I know history damn well, and am a Jew to boot, and I despise it when people equate Israel with Jews. Especially, when your only real point of doing so is to give justification to anything Israel does.

The fact that I had ancestors who died in the Holocaust does not mean I can go kick people out of their homes and run them over with a fucking tank. Being Jewish justifies nothing, except perhaps not eating pork.


If you wish to make the connection between Israel and Jews in YOUR statement, then fine, but I am not, i only made the connection in MY statement. Learn some context.

If A = B, then A = B.

Of course, Israel doesn't equate with Jews, but you're trying to do so. You're trying pretty hard. Because you want criticism of Israel to be as easily dismissed as criticism of Jews.

Right, because it's the Israeli state that has officially said it won't rest until Palestine is destroyed. Oh wait, that's right, it was Hamas, the ruling party of Palestine.

Israel was displacing settlers long before Hamas got elected and long before that statement. This is nothing more than a silly retroactive justification and it fails.

No, the point is that IF poland had REALLY invaded Germany, than yes, Germany would have been right in counter-invading the nation.

Oh, and if Jews REALLY declared war on Germany, Germany would be right in putting them in concentration camps?

http://judicial-inc.biz/Krisweta9.jpg

I guess the gold stars and gas chambers were Germany just "defending itself" too.

Israel REALLY WAS invaded, and as a result, they counter invaded (because they had the military capability to do so) to secure their borders. That's pretty typical in any major war.

Yes, annexation, conquest, oppression are pretty typical. But typicality isn't a good reason. It may be "typical" but that doesn't make it right... even if it's Jews doing it. ;)

Not exactly. But Hamas works amongst its settlements, using sleeper cells, what have you. Israel is simply trying to secure its people. There is nothing wrong with that.

Well you know, Jews in Germany worked amongst their settlements, using sleeper cells, what have you. Germany was just trying to secure its people. There is nothing wrong with that.

Go on, I dare you, make an argument that I can't also use to justify Nazis.

When they stop acting like assholes.But they can't. It's intrinsic.


oh, and full Israeli citizenship for all Palestinians!

you know, you would think that after THOUSANDS of years of a history of being oppressed, suppressed, enslaved, relocated, nearly exterminated


you would think that maybe


JUST MAYBE


people would begin to cut the Israelis some slack


but no, ooooooooooooooooh no, people continue to bitch about those evil Israelis

and about what?


some stupid little settlements


heaven forbid the Israelis try to secure for themselves a sense of stability and security that the world has robbed them of since the creation of mankind

Call me when you settlers give America back to the native Americans, and you go home to Europe where your ancestors came from.

Until then, hypocrite.

I am pro-Israel, but I do not support the settlements. The main reason is that I think that we need to make major concessions if we are to gain peace - in particular, to keep Jerusalem. If Israel were to agree to dismantle ALL the settlements, the Palestinians might be willing to let us have Jerusalem.Won't happen. Palestinians not only have a perfectly legit claim to a shared Jerusalem, the one thing all their remaining allies wants is Jerusalem under Palestinian (or rather, Muslim) control. Unless that changes, it won't matter much if Israel stops terrorising the locals under military occupation and stealing their shit.There are plenty of Israeli jerks. There are also plenty of Palestinian jerks. Peace will come when the jerks are out of power.That I'll agree to. Problem is, they're not gonna relinquish control on their own, especially when other countries around the world do our very best to keep the psychos in power.Right now, in Israel, the jerks are out of power....Riight...

slow-drip ethnic cleansing.

I never EVER saw such a perfect expression for what Israel is doing. EVER.

Well I guess the real question is, if Israel really want peace, why do they continue to build such provocative colonies (no not settlements, I am saying what they really are) on Palestinian land, against all international treaties Israel has signed to the contrary. The answer is that the colonists in the West Bank are messianic nutjobs who think God is going to come down from Heaven soon and kill all non-Jews in Israel, a bit like Evangelicals. They are mostly racist ultranationalists who believe in that 'Greater Israel' stuff and the Talmud racist '1 Jewish fingernail is worth more than a funded Gentiles' crap. They have been known to attack foreigners (especially journalists) in the West Bank, spitting on them, mutilating people with knives etc. That they are crazy can be the only explanation for volunteering to live in a colony and to undertake such a provocation in the oppression of the Palestinians, so much so that they invite attack.

Get over it. The Americans/Irish/Isreali electing a terorrist group to power is just a clear indication that they will not stop until every last British/Palestinian is dead, or they themselves are dead.


Fixed for: What's the difference?

Problem is, they're not gonna relinquish control on their own, especially when other countries around the world do our very best to keep the psychos in power....Riight...

Because defending themselves against suicide bombers is psychotic, you know.

Because defending themselves against suicide bombers is psychotic, you know.

Using cruise missiles to "assassinate" people regardless of what they happen to be close to. Yeah pretty flipping nuts.

Using cruise missiles to "assassinate" people regardless of what they happen to be close to. Yeah pretty flipping nuts.

What else would they do? Send in a special forces team? At least they use precision weapons and don't carpet bomb the place. Unless of course, you agree with them killing innocent civilians. Yes, I know Israel does it as well,but not to the same extent, and not purposely.

Answer my question, if they want peace why do the Israelis continue to build colonies which are illegal under international law (treaties they signed)?

Are you referring to the one's in the Gaza Strip or elsewhere?

What else would they do? Send in a special forces team? At least they use precision weapons and don't carpet bomb the place. Unless of course, you agree with them killing innocent civilians. Yes, I know Israel does it as well,but not to the same extent, and not purposely.

Answer my question, if they want peace why do the Israelis continue to build colonies which are illegal under international law (treaties they signed)?

Fixed for: What's the difference?

If you think Bush is a terrorist, then you're an ignorant moron. And you'll get a one-way ticket to my ignore list.

And if I recall correctly, the IRA disbanded. So, yeah, problem solved.

If you think Bush is a terrorist, then you're an ignorant moron. And you'll get a one-way ticket to my ignore list.

And if I recall correctly, the IRA disbanded. So, yeah, problem solved.

The entire American state is a terrorist organization, and must be accordingly attacked.

The entire American state is a terrorist organization, and must be accordingly attacked.

Are you Russian? I can't even tell you how fast NATO would beat you down.

The entire American state is a terrorist organization, and must be accordingly attacked.

*Points and Laughs*

Oh the idiocy of some people! hahahaahahhaah

Okay, so the real point of this thread is:

There exists in the world a loose collection of fanatical fruitcakes who seek to support the state of Israel as is and aggravate the Palestinian Conflict for the purely selfish reason that they believe the Israelis and the Palestinians blowing the shit out of each other (mostly the Palestinians) will send a great crucifix-shaped Bat Signal to the sky which then Jeebus will see and return to planet Earth in what is called The Second Coming and bring about Judgment Day where everyone who is not of the chosen people (i.e. hardcore Jews and Evangelicals) or Arnold Schwarzenegger will be wiped out and sent to Hell.

You'd think the state of Israel would reconsider accepting support from a collection of fruitcakes whose biggest wet dream is to see the state of Israel go up in a mushroom cloud which sends said crucifix-shaped Bat Signal to Jeebus in the sky.

-snip-

Thats not entirely how it works. But there are those people who believe in destroying Islam's third most holiest mosque so the Jews can rebuild the temple, thus fulfilling one of the prophecies in Revelations.

Thats not entirely how it works. But there are those people who believe in destroying Islam's third most holiest mosque so the Jews can rebuild the temple, thus fulfilling one of the prophecies in Revelations.

Aside from the exact specifications of Revelations, the point is that these fruitcakes actively support or even try to engineer a series of events in hopes of bringing about The Second Coming well ahead of its appointed time, which in realistic terms is a serious security concern for the state of Israel. If I was in charge of a state like Israel I don't want to accept money and support from anyone who really just wants to see my state go to a complete shithole just to fulfill something written in an ancient book.

Aside from the exact specifications of Revelations, the point is that these fruitcakes actively support or even try to engineer a series of events in hopes of bringing about The Second Coming well ahead of its appointed time, which in realistic terms is a serious security concern for the state of Israel. If I was in charge of a state like Israel I don't want to accept money and support from anyone who really just wants to see my state go to a complete shithole just to fulfill something written in an ancient book.

Agreed.

The entire American state is a terrorist organization, and must be accordingly attacked.

*sigh*

...kids these days.

Because defending themselves against suicide bombers is psychotic, you know.Using the cover of self defence to force an extremely violent and oppressive military occupation on an entire peoples, while displacing large portions of them and 'appropriating' everything from resources to land to housing to fucking cars, isn't self defence. And yes, it's something only a bunch of rich, fat psyshos with a religious book stuck up their collective ass would do.

Nevermind the kind of defence you're talking about all too frequently takes the form of collective punishment or mass-murder - which are crimes of war and/or crimes against humanity. Again something no sane people would do. Especially not if they were even remotely interested in not making an entire peoples hell-bent on killing every last fucking one of them as brutally as possible.

There's no such thing as peace through superior firepower.

If you think Bush is a terrorist, then you're an ignorant moron. And you'll get a one-way ticket to my ignore list.

America was formed as a nation after Bush was elected? Wow, my history books must be really warped. No silly. I meant during its formation as a country. Washington and the lot didn't go about it in a peaceable manner I'll tell you that much.


And if I recall correctly, the IRA disbanded. So, yeah, problem solved.

They disbanded because they got what they wanted. No other reason to stick around after that.

Using the cover of self defence to force an extremely violent and oppressive military occupation on an entire peoples, while displacing large portions of them and 'appropriating' everything from resources to land to housing to fucking cars, isn't self defence. And yes, it's something only a bunch of rich, fat psyshos with a religious book stuck up their collective ass would do.

Nevermind the kind of defence you're talking about all too frequently takes the form of collective punishment or mass-murder - which are crimes of war and/or crimes against humanity. Again something no sane people would do. Especially not if they were even remotely interested in not making an entire peoples hell-bent on killing every last fucking one of them as brutally as possible.

There's no such thing as peace through superior firepower.

The Uncle Jimbo Doctrine in practice.

"LOOK OUT!! IT'S HEADED RIGHT FOR US!!"

:mp5:

Are you Russian? I can't even tell you how fast NATO would beat you down.

While I don't agree with the ideology of those who committed them, the 9/11 attacks were indeed justified.

While I don't agree with the ideology of those who committed them, the 9/11 attacks were indeed justified.

The deliberate mass murder of innocents is never justified.

It doesn't matter what group the target is, or what group is doing the killing...there are better options than violence. Period.

The deliberate mass murder of innocents is never justified.

It doesn't matter what group the target is, or what group is doing the killing...there are better options than violence. Period.

In a system where 'liberal democracy' has been set up deliberately to prevent real democracy, that is economic democracy, and where intellectual activism will have no lasting effect, bombs are the only real weapons of message.

In a system where 'liberal democracy' has been set up deliberately to prevent real democracy, that is economic democracy, and where intellectual activism will have no lasting effect, bombs are the only real weapons of message.

Tell that to the victims...



...oh wait, they're dead, and even if they weren't, you don't give a shit about them.

Your problem is, that you don't understand the groups in israel.

most people are against the settlements, and we are in a process of evacuting them. we don't like murdering palestinians.

we don't want to destroy the muslim mosque in Jerusalem.

only the "fanatical" religious people want that. (and they are just %8 percent of the jewish population.)

also, muslims are being show in bad way too because of that. fanatical muslims (Shiim) are only %10 of the total muslim population around the world.

and i know it, because i am from israel.

we are the most developed country in the middle east. and i will give you some facts from Wikipedia-

"Due to its broad array of political rights and civil liberties, Israel is considered the only liberal democracy in the Middle East."

"Despite Israel's political problems and the vast sums it spends on military defense, the country is an active competitor in the global market and is considered the most progressive in the region in terms of freedom of the press, business regulations, economic competition,and overall human development"

"Israel is the only country in the region to be ranked "Free" by Freedom House based on the nation's level of civil and political rights, although what Freedom House terms "Israeli Occupied Territories/Palestinian Authority" were ranked "Not Free."[88] Similarly, Reporters Without Borders rated Israel 50th out of 168 countries in terms of freedom of the press, highest among Middle Eastern countries and just ahead of Japan"

"Israel is considered one of the most — if not the most — industrially- and economically-developed country in the Middle East.[13] The World Bank ranks Israel as having the best regulations for businesses and strongest protections of property rights in the region.[12] The country has the second-largest number of startup companies in the world (after the United States) and the largest number of NASDAQ-listed companies outside North America.[108] Israel has the 53rd-highest gross domestic product and 37th-highest gross domestic product per capita (at purchasing power parity) at US$170.3 billion[3] and US$26,800,[4] respectively"

"As a result of the country's success in developing cutting-edge technologies in software, communications and the life sciences, Israel is often compared to Silicon Valley.[111][112] Intel[113] and Microsoft[114] built their first research and development centers outside the United States in Israel and other high-tech multi-national corporations, including IBM, Cisco Systems, and Motorola, have opened facilities in the country."

and so others..

i compare jews and muslim to the Communism.

great idea at its beginning, but several lazy (fanatical) people ruined it.

The settlers are not the majority of voters. Also, even if they were, they will only vote for someone that keeps them there. This doesn't mean they vote for people who use history or religion to justify what they are doing.

The settlers use history to back what they're doing (or at least thjeir version of History) and the Israeli government aids them. Very simple.


most people are against the settlements, and we are in a process of evacuting them..

Unfortunately not. The ones removed from Gaza are now in the West Bank. The few removed from Hebron were only dealt with in part because the area is considered a waste of resources, given the numbers there.

Oh their ancestors were oppressed, now they can do anything they want :rolleyes:. If anybody who's ancestors were oppressed/exterminated/whatnot could do anything they want it wouldn't end good.

Especially for us white folks. The best claim I have to ancestral oppression is a tax on fucking tea.

Tell that to the victims...



...oh wait, they're dead, and even if they weren't, you don't give a shit about them.
Anyone who can't look above the means to see the end is surely ignorant and short-sighted in the extreme, violence is a means to meet an ideological goal, the French, Russian and American revolutions were all quite bloody,but one should not judge an ideology by it's share of blood.

Actually, you are incorrect


this "illegally obtained" land that you speak of was added to Israel after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, when Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon all attacked Israel, unprovoked, may I add.

So yes, Israel has full legitimacy over these "territories"

I see nothing wrong with that.

Plus, Israel has never, NEVER declared that they will not rest until every single Palestinian lies dead. However, you have official political groups like Hamas who VOW to destroy the state of Israel, and continually attack innocent civilians.

actually....

it was the 1967 war...

You know, the one in which Israel made a pre-emptive strike...

I have no desire to go into the debate whether they were right to do so, but they have absolutely no legitimacy with regard to the land and the people behind the green line

Aside from the exact specifications of Revelations, the point is that these fruitcakes actively support or even try to engineer a series of events in hopes of bringing about The Second Coming well ahead of its appointed time, which in realistic terms is a serious security concern for the state of Israel. If I was in charge of a state like Israel I don't want to accept money and support from anyone who really just wants to see my state go to a complete shithole just to fulfill something written in an ancient book.

QTF

These crazies scare the crap out of me… There is some good, and not to mention scary, research on the evangelical support for Israel.

Yaakov Ariel (1991) On behalf of Israel: American Fundamentalist attitudes toward Jews Judaism, and Zionism, 1865-1945, Brooklyn, New York: Carlson Publishing Inc

Paul Boyer (1992) When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy belief in Modern American Culture, Cambridge, Mass.: the Belknap Press of Harvard University Press

Peter Grose (1983) Israel in the Mind of America, New York: Alfred A. Knopf

In a system where 'liberal democracy' has been set up deliberately to prevent real democracy, that is economic democracy, and where intellectual activism will have no lasting effect, bombs are the only real weapons of message.

I used to just think you were an idiot. Now I know you're a dangerous idiot. I hope you grow up before you end up hurting anyone.

Anyone who can't look above the means to see the end is surely ignorant and short-sighted in the extreme, violence is a means to meet an ideological goal, the French, Russian and American revolutions were all quite bloody,but one should not judge an ideology by it's share of blood.
I assure you, I am not short-sighted.

The End is never guranteed. When one uses evil mean to create good ends, and those ends do not come about as initially desired (your own examples of Russia and France work here), then all you have done is committed evil. Even if good means fail, you never sacrificed your humanity.

That's not even mentioning the corrupting influence of violence. Once one has used violence to seize control, what is to stop one from using violence on all those who oppose one's control? Russia and France work as an example here as well.

Anyone who can't look above the means to see the end is surely ignorant and short-sighted in the extreme

Such an outlook justifies nearly any action...hardly intelligent or farsighted.

violence is a means to meet an ideological goal, the French, Russian and American revolutions were all quite bloody

Those revolutions are not the same as deliberate attacks against civilian targets and you damn well know it (or should anyways).

but one should not judge an ideology by it's share of blood.

I disagree entirely...the "share of blood" should be the first thing that comes into consideration when judging an ideology.

A cause willing to kill to further it's ideals is willing to kill to ensure those ideals are never called into question, even if all evidence points to a better option.

While I don't agree with the ideology of those who committed them, the 9/11 attacks were indeed justified.

Wow. AP is getting to be almost as crazy as UB.

Wow. AP is getting to be almost as crazy as UB.

Jesus shit. UB isn't that bad at all. He's got some unthoughtful ideas about religion. That's all. Nothing compared to a guy who supports violent revolution and the USSR.

Jesus shit. UB isn't that bad at all. He's got some unthoughtful ideas about religion. That's all. Nothing compared to a guy who supports violent revolution and the USSR.

Hmm.

"Jews do. They are the new Nazis today." for starters. UB has justified and supported genocide of these groups; Americans, evangelical Christians, Jews (esp Israelis), as well as Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses IIRC. Personally, I agree in that AP might be more crazy, but genocide beats out support of violent revolution on the evil scale.

Hmm.

"Jews do. They are the new Nazis today." for starters. UB has justified and supported genocide of these groups; Americans, evangelical Christians, Jews (esp Israelis), as well as Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses IIRC. Personally, I agree in that AP might be more crazy, but genocide beats out support of violent revolution on the evil scale.
The difference is, I don't think UB really means it.

Jesus shit. UB isn't that bad at all. He's got some unthoughtful ideas about religion. That's all. Nothing compared to a guy who supports violent revolution and the USSR.
'Those who have taken, now they must give!' - The Internationale - second stanza.

If you honestly think the bourgeois and oligarchs will willingly give up their wealth without blood, you are a fool. It is necessary.

The difference is, I don't think UB really means it.

You mean he's a troll? If you do, you might be right. Otherwise, I haven't seen much to suggest that; no smilies and the like.

aaaaaanyway... enough about UB.

Anyone who can't look above the means to see the end is surely ignorant and short-sighted in the extreme, violence is a means to meet an ideological goal, the French, Russian and American revolutions were all quite bloody,but one should not judge an ideology by it's share of blood.

Genghis Khan had an end too. The betterment of the Mongolian people. It required murdering everyone who disagreed with him.

I have an end too. The betterment of humanity by culling the stupid from it on either end of the political spectrum. Do you want to volunteer to be culled?

If I honestly think the dictators and despots masquerading as communists will willingly give up their wealth without blood, I am a fool.

Fixed.

Fixed.

You know, I am quite sure their is a forum rule against that.

In a system where 'liberal democracy' has been set up deliberately to prevent real democracy, that is economic democracy, and where intellectual activism will have no lasting effect, bombs are the only real weapons of message.

I must ask; does this principle extend to Australia?

You know, I am quite sure their is a forum rule against that.

I don't think so. I'm not sure, but IIRC there's only a rule against changing others' posts and attempting to hide it. Since all he had was the quote and 'fixed', it's rather obvious the quote has been altered in some way.

Yeah, we are a bunch of bastards ain't we?
true, but you're so adorable we forgive you for it.

The difference is, I don't think UB really means it.

AP is certainly a troll. Look at his posting style, it is so... acted... I don't know any communists who actually still pull this blithering nonsensical paranoid commie shit. Just look at the use of his words, only people who are pretending to be communists actually talk that way (unless he is from the 1910s and he has travelled forward in time, or is really really old).

In a system where 'liberal democracy' has been set up deliberately to prevent real democracy, that is economic democracy, and where intellectual activism will have no lasting effect, bombs are the only real weapons of message.
And then bombs are the only real way to respond to such a message.
Thus you should be wholeheartedly supporting the US invasion and occupation of Iraq.

You know, I am quite sure their is a forum rule against that.

Report me if you feel that strongly against it. I don't particularly care either way since I've made it obvious that it was altered.

You know, I am quite sure their is a forum rule against that....there...

The difference is, I don't think UB really means it.Means it what?

Jesus shit. UB isn't that bad at all. He's got some unthoughtful ideas about religion.I have the most thoughtful ideas about religion.

"Jews do. They are the new Nazis today." for starters.Well, "chosen people" is only another expression for "herrenrasse".

Really? Doesn't read that way to me.

Your illiteracy is not my concern.

oh how evil? :rolleyes:

see? youve already done it.

when "soliciting funds for settlements" wasnt enough, you STILL have a reason to hate israel. you changed your reason.

if they stopped making settlements in the occupied territories, you would find another reason.

while israel is far from perfect, it is no more evil than any other country.

Okay, this kind of attitude makes me nuts. Just because you disagree with something that a country/government does, that doesn't mean you hate them. Disagreeing with the current administration doesn't mean you hate the US, and dialiking the actions of the Israeli government is not the same as hating Israel or being and anti-Semite.

The entire American state is a terrorist organization, and must be accordingly attacked.

Been gargling with the bong water, I see.

and this is the ONLY issue that you have with israel...the settlements in the occupied territories. if they stopped that, you would suddenly see that israel is just defending herself.

yeah ok, i believe that.

I don't know about the OP but I also take issue with their poor aim and their use of imprecise weaponry in crowded streets. The fact that their trying to take down a rabid dog of a man doesn't excuse endangering everyone near his car.

Your illiteracy is not my concern.

Neither is your tendency to play man instead of ball mine. I do feel free to blow the whistle when I see it though.

Heaven forbid the Israelis adhere to international law, stop an illegal occupation, stop restricting the freedom of movement of the palestinians, stop the extrajudicial killings, stop the carving up and theft of palestinian lands. :rolleyes:

It's not "little" settlements either. (More than 450,000 people in total on the west bank, including east Jerusalem.)

I will not give Israel any slack while they defy international law and continue an illegal occupation, killing and generally hurting palestinians while they're doing so, as I won't give the palestinians any slack while they're using terror as a tool and attack innocent Israeli citizens.

Two wrongs does not make a right. Just because the jewish people suffered in the past does not make them immune for criticism for their abhorrent acts today.

Ha. International law is nothing more than a talking point of politicians.

power lies with those who use it, regardless of the collective decisions of nations. Without enforcement, there is no law.

if they stopped making settlements in the occupied territories, you would find another reason. that's because the end of new settlements does not yet end the occupation.

while israel is far from perfect, it is no more evil than any other country.that's laughable. how many other countries do currently occupy someone else's home land?

that's laughable. how many other countries do currently occupy someone else's home land?

America, Canada, Mexico, Australia, South Africa...

And the list continues. :rolleyes:

America, Canada, Mexico, Australia, South Africa...

And the list continues. :rolleyes:

*ba dum tish*

America, Canada, Mexico, Australia, South Africa...

And the list continues. :rolleyes:

I've said this to him before, apparently those countries don't count because the occupation was over a centruy ago. :rolleyes:

I don't know about the OP but I also take issue with their poor aim and their use of imprecise weaponry in crowded streets. The fact that their trying to take down a rabid dog of a man doesn't excuse endangering everyone near his car.

i certainly have no problem with opposing any israeli policy. i would prefer if you would suggest how they are supposed to deal with the "rabid dog" who consistently hides behind the crowds. its a tough problem with few good solutions.

but that wasnt my problem with the OP. it was the way he switched his point as soon as it was shown to him that it was stupid. i dont understand why people are so very angry at israel when they arent rabidly angry at countries with similar problems but i do understand why they dislike many of israels policies toward the palestinians.

Well, "chosen people" is only another expression for "herrenrasse".

No, it isn't. It's an arrogant belief that they are chosen by God. Not a belief that they are genetically superior to everyone else in a racial hierarchy based on 19th century racial theory.

I don't know what's worse... people like One World Empire who think that Israel can do anything it wants due to the suffering of the Jews... and people like you who think Jews are Nazis and would gladly see them all die.

I've said this to him before, apparently those countries don't count because the occupation was over a centruy ago. :rolleyes:

maybe we could count tibet, kashmir, any of those little wannabe countries that russia is crushing, the basque homeland, im sure i can think of others.

and, if you think about it, the occupation of the US, canada, mexico, australia, new zealand, south africa, etc are ongoing as long as their indigenous people still exist.

it IS a shame that only israel counts.

i certainly have no problem with opposing any israeli policy. i would prefer if you would suggest how they are supposed to deal with the "rabid dog" who consistently hides behind the crowds. its a tough problem with few good solutions.

Yes, because using terms like "rabid dog" makes you seem so civilised. Why not cut the bullshit and call them subhuman?

i dont understand why people are so very angry at israel when they arent rabidly angry at countries with similar problems
Point out some countries with similar policies but maintain they are a Liberal Democracy. If you can, I'm sure people will decry those places too.

Yes, because using terms like "rabid dog" makes you seem so civilised. Why not cut the bullshit and call them subhuman?


pay attention. i was using his analogy.



Point out some countries with similar policies but maintain they are a Liberal Democracy. If you can, I'm sure people will decry those places too.

so only liberal democracies count?

pay attention. i was using his analogy.

It didn't mean you had to continue it. Too often in these discussions one side dehumanises the other, and that sentiment is quickly reciprocated.


so only liberal democracies count?
Israel claims to be a Liberal Democracy does it not? We might as well compare like with like. No point in comparing apples with astrophysics.

Why is Israel, a First World country, still receiving the largest amount of Foreign Aid from the United States? Shouldn't countries/regions such as Sub-Saharan Africa, Haiti, Afghanistan and other third World countries deserve more of that money?

Also, soliticing money for the stealing of other people's land is wrong no matter the circumstances. Although, these actions are more of the result of individual Israelis, the actual government can be commended for kicking out all the Israeli settlements in Gaza. Despite how unpopular the decision was in Israel and how fiercely the illegal settlers tried to keep their land. The government and military gave back the land to the Palestinians.

It was unfortunate that Palestinians then decided to destroy all the infrastructure of the former settlements, and continue to be poor and entirely relient upon the goodwill of Israel and the West.

It was unfortunate that Palestinians then decided to destroy all the infrastructure of the former settlements, and continue to be poor and entirely relient upon the goodwill of Israel and the West.

An angry mob destroyed a few glasshouses, which was unfortunate and we hear a lot of.. Before the withdrawal,one of the targets of Israeli raids was the Arab horticultural areas with their glass-houses, which we hear little of. Obviously keeping the Arab produce at checkpoints till it rots wasn't enough for some.

but that wasnt my problem with the OP. it was the way he switched his point as soon as it was shown to him that it was stupid. i dont understand why people are so very angry at israel when they arent rabidly angry at countries with similar problems but i do understand why they dislike many of israels policies toward the palestinians.

Well that might be because we don't get any people defending Chinas actions in Tibet, or Russias in chechnya or trying to convince us that the sun shines out their arses.

but that wasnt my problem with the OP. it was the way he switched his point as soon as it was shown to him that it was stupid. i dont understand why people are so very angry at israel when they arent rabidly angry at countries with similar problems but i do understand why they dislike many of israels policies toward the palestinians.

Personally, I hold western liberal democracies to higher standards, in comparison to Authoritarian states. Partly because we within the western world have more influence over these countries. US and European citizens have more influence over the actions of their governments. And we together with Israeli citizens may also influence Israel.

Currently, support for Israel is unconditional, which I think is unwise. Israel does not need support for its security at the moment and I do believe it is making some mistakes which compromise the liberal nature of its democracy and its future security.

Ok I'm new to this discussion but there is no such thing as a country that doesn't have bad things it has done in it's past even our beloved Western Democracies.

US- Genocide of the indigenous people, Land war with Mexico because we felt like it, Read Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States.

Britain- Concentration Camps in the Boer War, Creating a Trans-Atlantic crushing various revolutionary movements along the way, Everybody in the British Isles hates the English there has to be a reason.

Germany- Ummm... yeh I think you can figure this one out.

France- Brutal suppression of Muslim minority in the squo, Napoleon's stuff gone wrong, plus they were more suppressive in their colonial conquests then Britain.

I don't other countries specifically enough to say things but my guess is that they were racist toward minorities and suppressed workers movements at one time or another in their histories.

So clearly while Israel is not lily white neither are a lot of other countries that we uphold as the greatest places in the world to live.

Ok I'm new to this discussion but there is no such thing as a country that doesn't have bad things it has done in it's past even our beloved Western Democracies.

US- Genocide of the indigenous people, Land war with Mexico because we felt like it, Read Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States.

Britain- Concentration Camps in the Boer War, Creating a Trans-Atlantic crushing various revolutionary movements along the way, Everybody in the British Isles hates the English there has to be a reason.

Germany- Ummm... yeh I think you can figure this one out.

France- Brutal suppression of Muslim minority in the squo, Napoleon's stuff gone wrong, plus they were more suppressive in their colonial conquests then Britain.

I don't other countries specifically enough to say things but my guess is that they were racist toward minorities and suppressed workers movements at one time or another in their histories.

So clearly while Israel is not lily white neither are a lot of other countries that we uphold as the greatest places in the world to live.

No they are not, that is why liberal democracy takes constant vigilance and constant effort from the respective populations... have strong institutions, do not compromise the checks and balances... be very criticaql of your own government. That sort of thing

No they are not, that is why liberal democracy takes constant vigilance and constant effort from the respective populations... have strong institutions, do not compromise the checks and balances... be very criticaql of your own government. That sort of thing

Sorry can you explain your post. Who are they? Because that could mean two things (I think, it might mean more)

1. All the countries I listed here meaning that you don't liberal democracy exists anywhere in the world or I guess only in Scandinavia or something like that.

2. Israel is not a liberal democracy. Which it basically is outside of the whole Jewish element being more favored than other religions. It has checks and balances, it has a vocal population that speaks out against the government, it has some strong institutions that I believe are being weakened by the conflict or by internal mismanagement.

Sorry can you explain your post. Who are they? Because that could mean two things (I think, it might mean more)

1. All the countries I listed here meaning that you don't liberal democracy exists anywhere in the world or I guess only in Scandinavia or something like that.

2. Israel is not a liberal democracy. Which it basically is outside of the whole Jewish element being more favored than other religions. It has checks and balances, it has a vocal population that speaks out against the government, it has some strong institutions that I believe are being weakened by the conflict or by internal mismanagement.

My point was that certain states, which perceive themselves as liberal democracies, still have a long way to go… and even once you have reached that standard it will require a constant effort to keep it that way.

We cannot accept the policies of the Israeli government, by saying that it is the only democracy in the region. No we should set a far higher standard in exchange for aid. Why not use the carrot and stick for Israel?

Why not use the carrot and stick for Israel?

Because the sticks are being waved at the Arabic people, the North Koreans and the Russians. Maybe the Chinese too.

And they're fresh out of sticks. I suppose they could try beating them with the carrot, but I don't think that'd have the desired effect.

When they stop acting like assholes.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/17/jews.christians/index.html



Crap like that is part of the reason there'll never be peace in that area.

Money for settlement = bad news

But she feels she is doing what she feels is correct. Almost like irishmen coming over here to get money for the IRA to buy weapons.

Because the sticks are being waved at the Arabic people, the North Koreans and the Russians. Maybe the Chinese too.

And they're fresh out of sticks. I suppose they could try beating them with the carrot, but I don't think that'd have the desired effect.Probably not, seeing as they're virtually raping them with the carrot right now :D

2. Israel is not a liberal democracy.

You meant "is a liberal democracy" right?

Why is Israel, a First World country, still receiving the largest amount of Foreign Aid from the United States? Shouldn't countries/regions such as Sub-Saharan Africa, Haiti, Afghanistan and other third World countries deserve more of that money?

Isn't it obvious? Because the majority of that money the US gives them is spent on US weapons. It's how the govenment subsidizes their defense contractor friends. *od*

No, it isn't. It's an arrogant belief that they are chosen by God. Not a belief that they are genetically superior to everyone else in a racial hierarchy based on 19th century racial theory.It is of no relevance why exactly an ideological group thinks it is superior. "chosen seed" is a designation to elevate Jews over all other humans, just as the "herrenrasse" concept was supposed to elevate some folks over all other humans. It's the same shit.

maybe we could count tibet, kashmir, any of those little wannabe countries that russia is crushing, the basque homeland, im sure i can think of others.

and, if you think about it, the occupation of the US, canada, mexico, australia, new zealand, south africa, etc are ongoing as long as their indigenous people still exist.

it IS a shame that only israel counts.That maybe due to the fact how exactly any of those countries are treating their indigenous people. Only Israel is building settlements in the occupied territory to perform a slow ethnic cleansing. Adn then there's also this fence/wall thing, you know...
Do the US, canada, mexico, australia, new zealand, south africa, etc do it the same way? Are the Native Americans that have lived on US territory full citizens of the US? Are Palestinians full citizens of the new state, Israel?

It is of no relevance why exactly an ideological group thinks it is superior.

Being chosen by a God doesn't mean superiority. You need to start reading more, unless of course you've burned all your books.

Ha. International law is nothing more than a talking point of politicians.

power lies with those who use it, regardless of the collective decisions of nations. Without enforcement, there is no law.

Ah. So you don't mind neither Iran getting nuclear weapons nor the invasion of Iraq. Nor do you agree with diplomatic immunity or embassies, nor cross-border trade... Or borders, for that matter. Nice to know :)

Being chosen by a God doesn't mean superiority.Claiming to be chosen by the allegedly only god there is means presuming superiority.

SOunds like some Ayatollas there UB.

i certainly have no problem with opposing any israeli policy. i would prefer if you would suggest how they are supposed to deal with the "rabid dog" who consistently hides behind the crowds. its a tough problem with few good solutions.

If you must use crude methods there's always a sniper. A good sniper could get him in one shot and the only people close enough to even get bled on would his body guards. I still prefer the old methods though, the garrote, a knife in the back or poisoned needle from someone who looks like PART of the crowd, a box of his favorite candy laced with deadly poison given to him by someone he trusts . . . there are a lot of ways to kill a man without endangering everyone near him.

pay attention. i was using his analogy.

One which I used because many of the men they aim for ARE equivalent to rabid dogs. I understand that they are often aiming for those who are responsible for atrocities such as bombs in markets intended to kill civilians. The problem is they tend to aim for them with automatic fire or explosives while they are surrounded by more civilians. This carelessness make them responsible for atrocities of their own.

Claiming to be chosen by the allegedly only god there is means presuming superiority.

Even if this were the case (I don't see why it would be. I might claim that God told me to kill my family. Does that mean I presume superiority?) it's not racial superiority, nor a mandated hiearchy of those who are less than human and who must be exterminated.

Sorry, you're going to have to try harder to equate Judaism with Nazism.