NationStates Jolt Archive

Of late I've been considering energy, there's a massive amount of energy being generated and used constantly in the universe, and most of it is being wasted. The internal energy of a glass of water at room temperature alone is immense.

I could be wildly misunderstanding elementary physics here but that's why I think about such things, to figure them out.

A hydrogen atom is a very simple structure, it's an electron circling a proton. My question is this, where's it getting it's power from? Something has to drive the electron forward? Isn't it a micro-perpetual motion machine? Second point, would it be possible to exploit this tendency to generate power on a nano scale? I tend to think attempting to do so would cause the atom to "break" into it's constituent parts. How and if this would happen are completely unknown to me. Would the electron simply stop moving totally and the atom fall apart? What about higher order atoms with much larger structures? Could they be exploited in a kind of slow fission as they degrade down the periodic table?


Any physicists out there?

1. Energy is never created or destroyed, it only changes form.

2. Matter is energy. To figure out how much energy is in any material you do teh equation E=MC2. In english, the amount of energy in a material is equivalent to it's mass times the speed of light squared.

1. Energy is never created or destroyed, it only changes form.

2. Matter is energy. To figure out how much energy is in any material you do teh equation E=MC2. In english, the amount of energy in a material is equivalent to it's mass times the speed of light squared.

Yeah, I was aware of that.

Yeah, I was aware of that.

That's why the electron stays in motion around the nucleus.

A hydrogen atom is a very simple structure, it's an electron circling a proton. My question is this, where's it getting it's power from? Something has to drive the electron forward? Isn't it a micro-perpetual motion machine?

Good questions, I've never thought of it like that before. I think it gets its power from electromagnetic forces - the charges of the protons and electrons. As well as the gravity force of those big-ass protons.

Any physicists out there?

No, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

First off it is not entirely accurate to describe an electron as a single dot orbiting a nucleus, much like a planet orbits a star. It's...a bit more complicated than that.

The simplist explanation for continual orbit is, much like gravity keeps our earth in orbit around the sun, electromagnetic attraction between negative electron and positive proton is what keeps the atomic structure together.

Also electrons will not "stop moving" as they have a base kinetic value, however if the energy in an electron is sufficient to overcome the electromagnetic attraction to the proton, the electron will break off from the atom, this is the principle behind how solar panels work.

Does that help to any degree?

It gets the motion from the electromagnetic force. Its a whole lot more complicated than that and involves quantum mechanics. The energy it possesses is measured in heat. So, the electrons move around the nucleus due to the heat of the particles guided by the electromagnetic force. At that level energy is converted into different forms rather easily.

No, you cannot generate energy, because one it would violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, and two, harnessing said energy would be prohibitively expensive and virtually impossible.

It would not stop moving because, since you cannot reach absolute zero, which is zero heat, you cannot stop moving, because heat is motion. The strong and weak nuclear forces also make breaking an atom very difficult to do.

Higher order atoms are too stable. One, fission doesn't mean knocking one or two particles off at a time; you split the atom in half. One half is smaller because some of the mass was directly converted into energy. Thus E=MC2. What you are speaking of is alchemy, which unfortunately hasn't been achieved yet (I won't rule it out.)

Good questions, I've never thought of it like that before. I think it gets its power from electromagnetic forces - the charges of the protons and electrons. As well as the gravity force of those big-ass protons.

gravity is so small as to absolutly negligible in atomic structures. In fact, gravity as a whole is an extraordinarly weak force.

Could they be exploited in a kind of slow fission as they degrade down the periodic table?

They, in fact, are. "slow fission" of heavy elements is radioactive decay. We use the radioactive decay of plutonium rods to power nuclear power plants. The whole principle behind a nuclear power plant is harnessing the energy of "slow fission" AKA radioactive decay.

The weakest, in fact.

Strong Nuclear Force
Electromagnetic Force
Weak Nuclear Force
Gravitational Force

From strongest to weakest going down.

Nuclear decay occurs in jumps. The Radioactive decay series doesn't hit every element from uranium to lead, you know. And its not nuclear fission! Its the weak force at work.

Good questions, I've never thought of it like that before. I think it gets its power from electromagnetic forces - the charges of the protons and electrons. As well as the gravity force of those big-ass protons.

The electron is the energy that keeps the electron in orbit. The force in question is not gravity since the gravitational force of teh nucleus isn't enough to hold the electron in orbit. The force that keeps it within the electron shell is calle the "nuclear weak force." The force that keeps the protons and nuetrons stuck together is called the "nuclear strong force." I might have those reversed.

The weakest, in fact.

Strong Nuclear Force
Electromagnetic Force
Weak Nuclear Force
Gravitational Force

From strongest to weakest going down.

Nuclear decay occurs in jumps. The Radioactive decay series doesn't hit every element from uranium to lead, you know. And its not nuclear fission! Its the weak force at work.

Yes, but one caveat. Gravity is the overriding force. At great mass it overrides all three other forces. Thus, neutron stars exist.

No, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I wonder how many people caught that.

Yes, but one caveat. Gravity is the overriding force. At great mass it overrides all three other forces. Thus, neutron stars exist.

....huh? A force is a force is a force. If you have competing forces, the force with the greatest magnitude wins. In certain circumstances when you have lots of mass, gravity is the force of greatest magnitute, but what do you mean by "overriding"?

Ah, but that is not our point here. Gravity has an almost (ALMOST) negligible effect at the distances around that of a hydrogen atom. Thus, all stars exist, because small gravitational attraction (extremely slowly) managed to clump atoms together. But gravity has no effect compared to that of the strong nuclear forces and the electromagnetic force, and even the weak force.

(By overriding, it means that it has the greatest reach. The strong force has effects on the scale of atomic lengths; electromagnetic force is larger, but has a relatively weak radius of force, and the weak nuclear force is just atomic lengths as well. Thus 'nuclear forces' and 'gravitational' and 'electromagnetic' forces. This is the main problem with modern physics. We are trying to unify the four forces into one force. We come very, very close but it slips away.)

(By overriding, it means that it has the greatest reach. The strong force has effects on the scale of atomic lengths; electromagnetic force is larger, but has a relatively weak radius of force, and the weak nuclear force is just atomic lengths as well.

In fact even gravity falls away exponentially.

Thus 'nuclear forces' and 'gravitational' and 'electromagnetic' forces. This is the main problem with modern physics. We are trying to unify the four forces into one force. We come very, very close but it slips away.)

That's because gravity's a bastard.

Gravity can be a real bitch sometimes.

....huh? A force is a force is a force. If you have competing forces, the force with the greatest magnitude wins. In certain circumstances when you have lots of mass, gravity is the force of greatest magnitute, but what do you mean by "overriding"?

That's exactly what I mean. As Mass goes up gravity begins to override the other forces. It has greater magnitude. If all forces increased with the same magnitude as gravity with increased mass, gravity would never win because the nuclear strong force would always override gravity, for example, and nuetrons would always remain distinct from protons. But at very high mass the nuclear strong force is overriden by gravity and nuetrons and protons collapse and you have what is called a quark-gluon plasma where there are no distinct protons and nuetrons - or electrons because nuclear weak and elctromagnitism are also overridden. This is what a neutron star is - it's one big neutron because all of the quarks and gluons have just been turned into quark - gluon soup by gravity.

What you say is true, but there is no atom large enough to have gravity win out that way, not even close.

there is no thing without energy
not thoughts
not the vacuum of space
no thing

What you say is true, but there is no atom large enough to have gravity win out that way, not even close.

No, but that's the point. At the very small scale gravity loses. Once you get to the size of neutron stars and black holes gravity defeats the other forces. I read an article in Scientific American years ago that described the space between a nuetron and a neutron star as the "nucler desert." At teh scale of neutrons and protons you have quark - gluon plasmas. You don't have these plasmas again until you get to the size of supermassive stars like neutron stars. At the scale of an atom or a human or a planet or star the size of our sun nuclear material remains distinct. Once you get to the size of a neutron star garvity becomes strong enough to override the other three forces and collapse nuclear material into a plasma again.