NationStates Jolt Archive


CIVILIZED WARRIORS -----what a novel idea!!

CanuckHeaven
13-08-2007, 23:00
After reading part of an article posted by Neu Leonstein, I thought I would check out other articles by the author (Ullrich Fichtner) and came across this interesting piece (http://www.defesanet.com.br/zz/war_petraeus_2.htm).

Can anyone imagine "civilized warriors"? It is really too bad that this formula wasn't perfected BEFORE invading Iraq, but then again, perhaps it is just an extension of the propaganda that has innundated the entire Iraq campaign?

Some samples from the article:

Weapons alone aren't enough to win a war -- you also need to dig wells and build schools.

....in the end the visitor is left with the feeling that a revolution is being launched here in Fort Leavenworth, one that will radically change the face of the United States military and the wars it will fight in the future.

The military also failed to realize that rebuilding stadiums could sometimes be more important than winning minor military skirmishes. It also had trouble understanding something that organizations like the United Nations had long known, and that is that providing seeds for crops can ultimately be more critical to achieving success than ammunition.

Petraeus is the man at the helm of the Army's top-down revolution.
Together with a general from the US Marines, James Mattis, he has written a new doctrine on counterinsurgency, a doctrine that turns almost every previous rule of warfare on its head.

The 241-page document contains an outline of the history of all rebellions and a guide to the wars of the future. For the first time, it draws no distinction between civilian and classic military operations.

In fact, it almost equates the importance of the two. Petraeus believe that the military can no longer win wars with military might alone. On the contrary, according to the new theory it must do its utmost to avoid large-scale destruction and, by as early as the initial attack, not only protect the civilian population but also support it with all available means in order to secure its cooperation for regime change. As uncomplicated as it may seem, Petraeus's new doctrine represents a sea change when it comes to the US military's training and combat procedures. Some might also interpret it as a way of settling scores with the failed strategy in Iraq.
No more Shock and Awe?

In one classroom, 15 uniformed soldiers, including guest students from Colombia, Argentina and Ukraine, sit in a U-shaped formation in front of computer screens. The instructor is a retired lieutenant colonel with
active duty experience in Malaysia and Thailand. During his lecture he
jumps from one place to another around the globe. He talks about Chechen and Mexican Zapatista rebels, Columbia's FARC revolutionaries and the Taliban, about Syria, Saudi Arabia and Somalia. He asks his students:

"In your opinion, how has the US's view of the world changed since Sept. 11?" A female student says, in a piercing voice: "We now know that we have to take them out before they take us out." It isn't the answer the instructor was looking for. He says: "Well, let's take a closer look."

Global sensitivity training and a new doctrine

The group of instructors sitting around the conference table is responsible for the new army's core issue: cultural awareness, or the art of handling multiculturalism and practicing tolerance and respect for foreigners. The people sitting around the table have served as diplomats and intelligence agents in Israel and Jordan and as military attachés in Syria. Their job is to give these young soldiers a crash course in how to deal with other cultures in general and Islam in particular.

"Arabs are not always Muslims, and Muslims do not always think the way Arabs do," says Kerry, citing an example of the kind of message he and his colleagues are here to instill in the officers.

Mark A. Olson is a pale, dour, combat-tested colonel in the Marines who has seen his share of the world. His subject at Leavenworth is counter-terrorism, and he knows his people well. "There will always be those who aren't interested in hand-shaking and baby-kissing," says Olson. "Those are the tank commanders who think it's their job to drive down the street and shoot at everything that moves." Olson makes a contemptuous face. "But then we wash that stuff out of their heads. We make it clear to them that idiots like them are not only not ending the insurgency but are in fact strengthening it. And, believe me, that's something they never forget."

Olson is one of Petraeus's better students. He says that officers of the future must have broader qualifications, civilian skills and a quick head that tells them when to shoot and, more important, when not to shoot. A military that acts too brutally in the wrong place merely creates new enemies. "We have to build contacts to the civilian population. They have to understand that they don't need to respect us, but that they should accept their new government."
I would imagine that a few of the hardcore NSG posters that have been preaching the kill'em all doctrine will have a difficult time adjusting to this new one, but it would appear that it is in the best interests of all concerned if they truly do want to win "the hearts and minds" of the people.

Good luck to the US in perfecting this model, but until I see it bear fruit, I will remain skeptical.

Your thoughts?
Xiscapia
13-08-2007, 23:11
:eek:Naw, really? There's more to war then blowing the crap out of everything?!:rolleyes:
New Limacon
13-08-2007, 23:11
I heard a quote that went something like, "We are constantly preparing for the last war." In other words, the military adapts to what it has learned, but that education is unfortunately always outdated.
If by "winning the war" Petraeus means creating a stable, self-sufficient Iraq, then his ideas are probably true. Al-Quaida (I can never spell that) may be a threat, but I think right now the biggest problem in Iraq is that the Iraqis don't really have a country to lead them, so the US military is filling in. I'm sure Americans would be bothered if the military kept order in the US, and if added to that, the same military killed your brother just last week...it won't be pretty. So I'm all for "civilized warriors".
Neu Leonstein
13-08-2007, 23:14
Your thoughts?
Thanks for going after the author. I meant to do it yesterday but forgot.

I'm not sure whether you know, but Petraeus is the top US commander in Iraq right now. Hence my idea that him saying he needs more time isn't just the military not wanting to accept a defeat, but an actually measured decision based on a reasonable hope he can achieve something.

But you're right, this has been so long overdue it's not funny.
Ifreann
13-08-2007, 23:16
In before contradiction in terms.
Andaluciae
13-08-2007, 23:29
This thread made me think the time for a Monty Python quote was at hand, gentlefolk, I give you, The Life of Brian:

[at a meeting of the People's Front of Judea]
Reg: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Attendee: Brought peace?
Reg: Oh, peace - shut up!
The Parkus Empire
13-08-2007, 23:31
*snip

Who else here thinks civilized killers is an oxymoron?
UpwardThrust
13-08-2007, 23:31
This thread made me think the time for a Monty Python quote was at hand, gentlefolk, I give you, The Life of Briand:

[at a meeting of the People's Front of Judea]
Reg: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Attendee: Brought peace?
Reg: Oh, peace - shut up!

And this deserves a monty python video clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR9ZM6rI7DY
Johnny B Goode
13-08-2007, 23:39
Call me a cynical bastard, but it sounds too good to be true.
Yootopia
13-08-2007, 23:58
Seemingly you are all forgetting the First Earth Battalion, which opened this kind of thinking in the Vietnam War (by the way, the 1EB was never set up as an actual combat battalion, it was more a different way of looking at the war doctrinally).

Search for First Earth Battalion or Jim Channon (the man who suggested it) for more info, I s'pose.
CanuckHeaven
14-08-2007, 01:07
Who else here thinks civilized killers is an oxymoron?
Well ya!!! :D
Neu Leonstein
14-08-2007, 01:24
Search for First Earth Battalion or Jim Channon (the man who suggested it) for more info, I s'pose.
Well, I don't think Petraeus wants anyone to get ready for battle through yoga and Samadi tanks.

http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_channon_0200.htm :D
Vetalia
14-08-2007, 02:38
Now, the bulk of my military experience may come from Cybernations, but I'm smart enough to know this: People like infrastructure. People don't like it when it is destroyed, and they become happier if you repair and restore it ASAP.
CanuckHeaven
14-08-2007, 04:35
Now, the bulk of my military experience may come from Cybernations, but I'm smart enough to know this: People like infrastructure. People don't like it when it is destroyed, and they become happier if you repair and restore it ASAP.
Sometimes it can't be repaired ASAP?

Fallujah is Destroyed (http://www.taosplaza.com/content/view/258/155/?mosmsg=System+error.+Cannot+translate.+Please+try+later.)

Watch the video. Hard to capture the "hearts and minds"?
New Manvir
14-08-2007, 04:53
Who else here thinks civilized killers is an oxymoron?

*raises hand*
Marrakech II
14-08-2007, 06:24
snip..
Good read. Well if that is the new way of thinking it won't be long before we get to test that theory out. Considering the cost of reconstruction in real dollars and the cost to the US economy. I will hope they adopt a less destructive role in future wars. We as in the US cannot afford to keep rebuilding other peoples nations and let ours deteriorate.
CanuckHeaven
14-08-2007, 13:46
Good read. Well if that is the new way of thinking it won't be long before we get to test that theory out. Considering the cost of reconstruction in real dollars and the cost to the US economy. I will hope they adopt a less destructive role in future wars. We as in the US cannot afford to keep rebuilding other peoples nations and let ours deteriorate.
Well at least on paper, it seems a lot more proactive then the "Shock and Awe" campaign waged in Iraq.
Andaluciae
14-08-2007, 14:50
Well at least on paper, it seems a lot more proactive then the "Shock and Awe" campaign waged in Iraq.

It's actually a lot closer to the approach that the Dutch seem to take, when I was at CSIS we invited the Dutch Minister for Development Cooperation to give a talk about the "Dutch Method", entirely fascinating. It's no wonder that the areas controlled by the Dutch in Afghanistan are relatively stable and peaceful.
Remote Observer
14-08-2007, 14:56
No more Shock and Awe?


You're not very bright, are you?

Our attack into Iraq this time around was very precise. There was no large scale destruction across the country.

For example, the water and sewer system in Basra had been out of operation long before we ever got there. The infrastructure in Iraq was largely decrepit, due to Saddam spending his money elsewhere.

Yes, we destroyed his military vehicles, his radar sites, and his most important government buildings and military headquarters.

There's a reason we use precision munitions, Canuck. So that we hit exactly what we're aiming at. This invasion was an unprecedented example of quickly destroying someone's military (shock and awe) while leaving the civilian population to watch the fireworks (unless they were standing next to a major government building).

To listen to you talk, you would think that we had carpet bombed the entire country with banded high-drags from WW II.

What Petraeus alludes to is that we screwed up immediately after that. Our military really wasn't equipped or trained for nationbuilding, and there was no real plan for nationbuilding, other than what was pulled out of someone's ass.
Nodinia
14-08-2007, 15:11
You're not very bright, are you?

Our attack into Iraq this time around was very precise. There was no large scale destruction across the country.

For example, the water and sewer system in Basra had been out of operation long before we ever got there. The infrastructure in Iraq was largely decrepit, due to Saddam spending his money elsewhere..

Bollocks.



There's a reason we use precision munitions, Canuck. So that we hit exactly what we're aiming at. This invasion was an unprecedented example of quickly destroying someone's military (shock and awe) while leaving the civilian population to watch the fireworks (unless they were standing next to a major government building)...

Somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000 were standing beside Goverment buidlings?



What Petraeus alludes to is that we screwed up immediately after that. Our military really wasn't equipped or trained for nationbuilding, and there was no real plan for nationbuilding, other than what was pulled out of someone's ass.

There wasn't a two year study by the State department that didn't suit Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheney etc that was binned?
The Gay Street Militia
14-08-2007, 21:34
Who else here thinks civilized killers is an oxymoron?

The OP's term was not "civilised killers," it was "civilised warriors." Warrior is not a synonym for killer. War is conflict writ large, and conflicts can be settled without killing, but at the same time a pacifist defense force would be the product of naive thinking. If you consider your way of life to be worth preserving and defending, then its defenders must be equipped and prepared to kill its enemies. Not eager to kill. Not killing as a first choice. But if your society's enemies are closed to reason and will be happy with nothing less than killing you, then once reasoning with them has failed your defenders must be prepared to kill them instead, and celebrate victory with mourning instead of revelry.

So yeah, don't just assume that military = murderers = bad. 'Good warriors'-- the aim of the policies mentioned in the article-- are not necessarily killers; they take lives only when the enemy forces them to.

As for the originality of the whole discussion, it's nothing new and Patraeus is hardly some genius innovator-- all that stuff is right there for the apprehending, in The Art of War by Sun Tzu.
Ultraviolent Radiation
14-08-2007, 22:01
The meaning of 'war' has changed a lot. The aim used to be to cripple the enemy beyond any ability to fight back, but now wars are being fought with an aim to transform a functioning enemy nation into a functioning friendly nation, which is a lot more difficult.
CanuckHeaven
15-08-2007, 02:58
You're not very bright, are you?

Our attack into Iraq this time around was very precise. There was no large scale destruction across the country.

For example, the water and sewer system in Basra had been out of operation long before we ever got there. The infrastructure in Iraq was largely decrepit, due to Saddam spending his money elsewhere.

Yes, we destroyed his military vehicles, his radar sites, and his most important government buildings and military headquarters.

There's a reason we use precision munitions, Canuck. So that we hit exactly what we're aiming at. This invasion was an unprecedented example of quickly destroying someone's military (shock and awe) while leaving the civilian population to watch the fireworks (unless they were standing next to a major government building).

To listen to you talk, you would think that we had carpet bombed the entire country with banded high-drags from WW II.

What Petraeus alludes to is that we screwed up immediately after that. Our military really wasn't equipped or trained for nationbuilding, and there was no real plan for nationbuilding, other than what was pulled out of someone's ass.
I expect these kind of BS replies from you and have ever since you laid out your true agenda:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11118610&postcount=148

Do you even remember the statement that you made a year ago?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11616845&postcount=77

The fact is that Iraq is one sorry mess and has been since the first "precision munitions" landed in Baghdad 4 and a half years ago. You have zero credibility when it comes to "nation building".