NationStates Jolt Archive

Conscription for Iraq and Afghanistan is considered by most reasonable people who know beans about the subject to be gone and dead. Even those who know next to nothing will recognise that it would be quite possibly the quickest route to the death of the GOP's presidential aspirations.

Now the "War Czar" wants to bring it back...

Bush War Adviser Says Draft Worth a Look
Aug 10 06:25 PM US/Eastern
By RICHARD LARDNER

WASHINGTON (AP) - Frequent tours for U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan have stressed the all-volunteer force and made it worth considering a return to a military draft, President Bush's new war adviser said Friday.

"I think it makes sense to certainly consider it," Army Lt. Gen. Douglas Lute said in an interview with National Public Radio's "All Things Considered."

"And I can tell you, this has always been an option on the table. But ultimately, this is a policy matter between meeting the demands for the nation's security by one means or another," Lute added in his first interview since he was confirmed by the Senate in June.

President Nixon abolished the draft in 1973. Restoring it, Lute said, would be a "major policy shift" and Bush has made it clear that he doesn't think it's necessary.

The repeated deployments affect not only the troops but their families, who can influence whether a service member decides to stay in the military, Lute said.

"There's both a personal dimension of this, where this kind of stress plays out across dinner tables and in living room conversations within these families," he said. "And ultimately, the health of the all- volunteer force is going to rest on those sorts of personal family decisions."

The military conducted a draft during the Civil War and both world wars and between 1948 and 1973. The Selective Service System, re- established in 1980, maintains a registry of 18-year-old men.

Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., has called for reinstating the draft as a way to end the Iraq war.

Bush picked Lute in mid-May as a deputy national security adviser with responsibility for ensuring efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan are coordinated with policymakers in Washington. Lute, an active-duty general, was chosen after several retired generals turned down the job.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8QUECGG1&show_article=1

This is pure, utter idiocy at it's worst.

Lute might have shot the Bush administration in the foot with the talk of Draft Reinstatement, but I won't be surprised one bit if Beloved Dear Leader takes a double-barrelled 12-gauge to the legs by supporting it.

Hey, it's not like the Bush administration could ruin things more, right? I mean, they're already booed by all but the most brainwashed of republicans, who will support Bush on to the world's end and beyond. Everyone else will go on siding with the turrists.

it certainly would put an end to the war in iraq. the american public wouldnt stand for their sons and daughters being forced to die for bush's folly.

If this actually passes then I suppose it will be incentive to take an extended vacation in Canada...

the Bush admin has said numerous times that they are planning to stay clear of the draft.

the "czar" is just saying it needs to be considered, as it should be in every war. chances of it actually happening is very slim.

I'm shocked that the Bush administration hired a guy who would even consider disagreeing with the Decider.

Well, see you guys in the UK! We could have a real NS meetup then!

Lute might have shot the Bush administration in the foot with the talk of Draft Reinstatement, but I won't be surprised one bit if Beloved Dear Leader takes a double-barrelled 12-gauge to the legs by supporting it.

... did you read the article?

President Nixon abolished the draft in 1973. Restoring it, Lute said, would be a "major policy shift" and Bush has made it clear that he doesn't think it's necessary.

Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., has called for reinstating the draft as a way to end the Iraq war.

So you have President BUSH saying it's not necessary and a Democrat saying it is a viable way to end the Iraq war. I would take a closer look at who's holding the shotgun there.

You know perhaps I was mistaken, should the draft be brought back than maybe it would encourage people to take more of an interest to politics. Or at least get their heads out of the sand. It might bring a positive result.

Though I find even this to be unlikely.... bah.

... did you read the article?





So you have President BUSH saying it's not necessary and a Democrat saying it is a viable way to end the Iraq war. I would take a closer look at who's holding the shotgun there.

We've been over this. That guy only pushed for the draft so that the Republicans could never turn around and support it without looking like flip-floppers.

You know perhaps I was mistaken, should the draft be brought back than maybe it would encourage people to take more of an interest to politics. Or at least get their heads out of the sand. It might bring a positive result.

Though I find even this to be unlikely.... bah.

I gaurantee that at the first hint of the draft being taken seriously will cause a massive public outcry. Vietnam is still fresh in our memories, and I doubt very seriously that the American public would stand by and allow it to be repeated.

... did you read the article?

So you have President BUSH saying it's not necessary and a Democrat saying it is a viable way to end the Iraq war. I would take a closer look at who's holding the shotgun there.

in their defense Rangel has been reported to only supporting the reinstatement of the draft as a measure to make the war even more unpopular and a way to have it over much quicker. but what this also shows is that Rangel is in support of risking peoples lives in an (very pathetic) effort to play politics.

We've been over this. That guy only pushed for the draft so that the Republicans could never turn around and support it without looking like flip-floppers.

Maybe true, but until they flip, it's only a flight of fancy to say that the Bush admin will support the draft.

and who knows. some idiot may believe Rangel saying it's a viable solution (and to put it in perspective, a tac nuke is also a viable solution) and push for a draft during the next presidential term. which still won't make it the GOP shooting themselves, but the Dems (since I really DON'T see the GOP getting the Presidential Election next term.) so I really hope no one is paying the Rep from N.Y. any attention.

Such political tactics can backfire.

The Selective Service System, re- established in 1980, maintains a registry of 18-year-old men.

Sounds like grounds for a sex discrimination lawsuit, to me. :)

I gaurantee that at the first hint of the draft being taken seriously will cause a massive public outcry. Vietnam is still fresh in our memories, and I doubt very seriously that the American public would stand by and allow it to be repeated.

Not only is the scar tissue from Vietnam fresh, there's an emotional link to the last draft for the generation which currently holds the reins. To say that reinstating the draft would be an uphill battle when faced with cross-generation opposition would be an understatement. Speaking as an American citizen with dual-citizenship I am ecstatic that I, at least, have get-out-of-war-and-move-back-to-Dublin free card.

Aww, who am I kidding? If there's a draft, I'll report for it. My latent patriotism is too strong to dodge the draft, even if it ends up sending me to Iraq or Afghanistan as a result.

in their defense Rangel has been reported to only supporting the reinstatement of the draft as a measure to make the war even more unpopular and a way to have it over much quicker. but what this also shows is that Rangel is in support of risking peoples lives in an (very pathetic) effort to play politics.

This was old back in 2003 when the war first started. Why this keeps getting reported again and again, I have no idea. It's like the bloody time warps have escaped into the rest of reality.

Sounds like grounds for a sex discrimination lawsuit, to me. :)

SOCUS already ruled on it 26 years ago: Rostker v. Goldberg :D

Rostker v. Goldberg
Docket: 80-251
Citation: 453 U.S. 57 (1981)
Appellant: Rostker
Appellee: Goldberg

Abstract
Oral Argument: Tuesday, March 24, 1981
Decision: Thursday, June 25, 1981
Issues: Civil Rights, Sex Discrimination
Categories: armed services, gender


Advocates
Wade H. McCree (Argued the cause for the appellant)
Donald L. Weinberg (Argued the cause for the appellees)

Facts of the Case

After the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan in early 1980, President Jimmy Carter reactivated the draft registration process. Congress agreed with Carter's decision, but did not enact his recommendation that the Military Selective Service Act (MSSA) be amended to include the registration of females. A number of men challenged the constitutionality of the MSSA, and the challenge was sustained by a district court.

Question

Did the MSSA's gender distinctions violate the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment?

Conclusion

In a 6-to-3 decision, the Court held that Congress's decision to exempt women from registration "was not the 'accidental by-product of a traditional way of thinking about females'" and did not violate the Due Process Clause. The Court found that men and women, because of combat restrictions on women, were not "similarly situated" for the purposes of draft registration. The Court also upheld Congress's judgment that the administrative and military problems that would be created by drafting women for noncombat roles were sufficient to justify the Military Selective Service Act.

Supreme Court Justice Opinions and Votes (by Seniority)

Full Opinion: Civil Rights, Sex Discrimination: 6 - 3
Voted with the majority, joined Rehnquist's opinion
Burger

Voted with the minority, joined White's dissent, joined Marshall's dissent
Brennan

Voted with the majority, joined Rehnquist's opinion
Stewart

Voted with the minority, authored a dissent
White

Voted with the minority, authored a dissent
Marshall

Voted with the majority, joined Rehnquist's opinion
Blackmun

Voted with the majority, joined Rehnquist's opinion
Powell

Voted with the majority, authored an opinion
Rehnquist

Voted with the majority, joined Rehnquist's opinion
Stevens

Cite this page

The Oyez Project, Rostker v. Goldberg, 453 U.S. 57 (1981),
available at: http://www.oyez.org/cases/1980-1989/1980/1980_80_251/

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=453&page=57
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0453_0057_ZS.html

This was old back in 2003 when the war first started. Why this keeps getting reported again and again, I have no idea. It's like the bloody time warps have escaped into the rest of reality.

:eek: AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE TIME WARPS HAVE ESCAPED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL

This was old back in 2003 when the war first started. Why this keeps getting reported again and again, I have no idea. It's like the bloody time warps have escaped into the rest of reality.

because a politician said it and it keeps getting reported. thus it's kept fresh in everyone's mind.

... did you read the article?





So you have President BUSH saying it's not necessary and a Democrat saying it is a viable way to end the Iraq war. I would take a closer look at who's holding the shotgun there.

Yeah, and Beloved Dear Leader also said "We are not into nation building" right before the Iraq invasion. Given how much he's determined to put the United States down to Zimbabwean levels I won't hold my breath for the I Told You So if he does flip flop... yet again.

You know perhaps I was mistaken, should the draft be brought back than maybe it would encourage people to take more of an interest to politics. Or at least get their heads out of the sand. It might bring a positive result.

Though I find even this to be unlikely.... bah.

I have to say that in the 60's and early 70's every college student watched the news every night. If that's the only way to return to an informed electorate there might be some positives.

I think any American who would dodge such a draft is doing his country a great service, the last thing neocons(fascists in suits) need is more bodies to throw in front of the steamroller of history for their own self-exultation.

Aww, who am I kidding? If there's a draft, I'll report for it. My latent patriotism is too strong to dodge the draft, even if it ends up sending me to Iraq or Afghanistan as a result.

Thankfully, they're liable to recognize your intelligence, and you won't end up frontline infantry or in some other low-pay high-risk locale.

...you did do the ASVAB, right?

SOCUS already ruled on it 26 years ago: Rostker v. Goldberg :D

...



Of course, that case would be subject to reconsideration given that the decision was based upon statutory restrictions on combat roles for women, which have largely been dropped. (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/01/02/sprj.irq.military.women.ap/)

Indeed, in 2005 the Congress abdicated it's role in determining such roles in favour of letting the Pentagon decide (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/05/26/gop_drops_effort_to_restrict_roles_of_women_in_combat/)

As such, the decision of 26 years ago is ripe for reconsideration as it reflected a decision based on historic statutory conditions which are no longer in force.

Conscription for Iraq and Afghanistan is considered by most reasonable people who know beans about the subject to be gone and dead. Even those who know next to nothing will recognise that it would be quite possibly the quickest route to the death of the GOP's presidential aspirations.

Now the "War Czar" wants to bring it back...



http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8QUECGG1&show_article=1

This is pure, utter idiocy at it's worst.

In the immortal words of Ebert and Roeper, two thumbs down.

I don't think the Republicans want to mention it during the next election. US voters are annoyed with Bush and company with Iraq, and then putting in a draft would just make people even more annoyed - and then the young people who wouldn't normally vote, would vote against the Republicans.

This is pure, utter idiocy at it's worst.

All the man is saying is it is an option that should be considered. He isn't advocating bringing it back. Any politician or party that would advocate bringing the draft back would be committing political suicide. Charlie excepted.

I have to say that in the 60's and early 70's every college student watched the news every night. If that's the only way to return to an informed electorate there might be some positives.

Except our network news here is absurdly biased. All our main networks are run by a handful of men who use it to further their agendas. Maybe if everyone had to watch the BBC, but stuff like Fox/ABC news.

Except our network news here is absurdly biased. All our main networks are run by a handful of men who use it to further their agendas. Maybe if everyone had to watch the BBC, but stuff like Fox/ABC news.

I hate to break it to you, but the BBC is really not much better. Better than FOX perhaps, but that's about it.

Yeah, and Beloved Dear Leader also said "We are not into nation building" right before the Iraq invasion. Given how much he's determined to put the United States down to Zimbabwean levels I won't hold my breath for the I Told You So if he does flip flop... yet again.

... err... sorry, but can you show me proof that we are "Building a Nation"?

dismantling one... yes, but did we build any when the Iraq Invasion started? :p

I have to say that in the 60's and early 70's every college student watched the news every night. If that's the only way to return to an informed electorate there might be some positives.

actually, in the 60's and 70's, news was news. to the point and informative. nowdays, with 24 hour news networks, people can easily mistake opinion pieces as information and facts.

Sounds like grounds for a sex discrimination lawsuit, to me. :)
I'm female and registered for the draft. But I can at least so voluntarily.

Maybe true, but until they flip, it's only a flight of fancy to say that the Bush admin will support the draft.

and who knows. some idiot may believe Rangel saying it's a viable solution (and to put it in perspective, a tac nuke is also a viable solution) and push for a draft during the next presidential term. which still won't make it the GOP shooting themselves, but the Dems (since I really DON'T see the GOP getting the Presidential Election next term.) so I really hope no one is paying the Rep from N.Y. any attention.

Such political tactics can backfire.

If I remember correctly, Rangel's bill came up for a vote in 2005, and it didn't get a single vote--even Rangel voted against it--so the chances of your scenario playing out are fairly unviable. The draft is a non-starter, from everyone's perspective.

If I remember correctly, Rangel's bill came up for a vote in 2005, and it didn't get a single vote--even Rangel voted against it--so the chances of your scenario playing out are fairly unviable. The draft is a non-starter, from everyone's perspective.

ahh, but remember Nazz. it's the Voters who count and how many will actually do the research or just take what the media prints/says for what it's worth?

Doesn't matter to me either way. I'll refuse to go based on my religious values. ;)

Doesn't matter to me either way. I'll refuse to go based on my religious values. ;)

Hey I'm all for a draft, I'm too queer to hold a dirty rifle! :D

Aww, who am I kidding? If there's a draft, I'll report for it. My latent patriotism is too strong to dodge the draft, even if it ends up sending me to Iraq or Afghanistan as a result.

It seems to me that evading forced servitude and helping others to do so is one of the most heroic and even patriotic things one could do.

I'm female and registered for the draft. But I can at least so voluntarily.

Hmm... interesting. It was my understanding that women couldn't register. At least that's taken care of.

actually, in the 60's and 70's, news was news. to the point and informative. nowdays, with 24 hour news networks, people can easily mistake opinion pieces as information and facts.

I remember a time when even CNN reported the news, insteadd of publicizing CNN. It's been a long time though... :(

I'm disqualified from being drafted by pretty much everything short of age and sexuality.

It seems to me that evading forced servitude and helping others to do so is one of the most heroic and even patriotic things one could do.

But I couldn't stand the thought of others taking my place and possibly being injured or killed as a result. I did agree to be drafted when I filled out my Selective Service card, and if I am called to serve I have no other choice than to fulfill that obligation. It's the right thing to do, even if the motivation for the draft is wrong.

Well, our Doctor Strangelove occasionally spilled what the administration eally wants.

A pity the president likely actually agrees with him.

But I couldn't stand the thought of others taking my place and possibly being injured or killed as a result.

If they take your place then they either think going is the right thing to do or they're to cowardly to stand for what they actually believe.

I did agree to be drafted when I filled out my Selective Service card, and if I am called to serve I have no other choice than to fulfill that obligation. It's the right thing to do, even if the motivation for the draft is wrong.

It's illegal NOT to fill out one of those cards, can you really say you agreed to be drafted if you had no choice in the matter but to say "Yes I agree"? The right thing to do is join the army if you believe in the war being fought and to REFUSE to be forced to join if you do not.

Wow, conscription, that's so archaic, so WWI...

Wow, conscription, that's so archaic, so WWI...

WWII.

WWII.

No, I am pretty sure millions of men were conscripted in WWI. Either way, conscription is glorified slavery, armies are just tyrannical regimes hiding inside democracies.

If this actually passes then I suppose it will be incentive to take an extended vacation in Canada...
I'll be right behind you. Share rent?


Actually if this happens, I wouldn't be suprised if there was a mutiny by the some of the teenage recent draftees.

After all you just gave a huge amount of anti-Bush anti-government types the ability to use heavy weapons.