NationStates Jolt Archive

The reason the rest of the world does nothing is because they can't. Europe has become a paradise only because most European countries have dropped millitary funding and personnel so rapidly. America acts as a defender of Europe while most of the countries just develop. However, they are truly dependent on America if a war breaks out in their current state. America defends Europe because defending Europe physically defends America economically. I believe all of the silly controversy is all a bit of woosy, dreaming for FALSE socialist states in Europe is a way most people don't see what's really going on.


Wow, what have you been smoking?

The reason the rest of the world does nothing is because they can't. Europe has become a paradise only because most European countries have dropped millitary funding and personnel so rapidly. America acts as a defender of Europe while most of the countries just develop. However, they are truly dependent on America if a war breaks out in their current state. America defends Europe because defending Europe physically defends America economically. I believe all of the silly controversy is all a bit of woosy, dreaming for FALSE socialist states in Europe is a way most people don't see what's really going on.


You have as if America is reactive to aggression, in fact it's the opposite, US interventionism and hegemony across the world has created this enemy in the first place. It's like the Roman Empire crying because it's being resisted.

Also, Scandinavian socialism ftw

Still waiting for your proof.

BTW, in regards to "Last month was lowest U.S. casualites this year", consider this:

July 2007 = 79 US fatalities

July 2006 = 43 US fatalities

July 2005 = 54 US fatalities

July 2004 = 54 US fatalities

July 2003 = 48 US fatalities

In other words, the worst July since the beginning of the Iraq War (http://icasualties.org/oif/default.aspx). The US coalition is averaging 3.36 fatalities per day this year (40% higher than last year), which is the worst average excluding the initial 43 days of the war.

I have already showed you proof. If you are so completely blind that you haven't already seen these things then you have no hope.

Gosh, did my Godson draw the short straw or what? He's leaving this month for his third tour. His commitment was up in June but they told him he was going for another 15 month tour anyway. The first time he came within inches of getting killed three times. Several of his buddies died. Since then he flat refuses to talk about combat.
The stat still stands at 99.6%
The problem with an MOS in a guerrilla war is no one is safe. My Godson is a computer specialist. Last tour he worked at a hospital and was still under fire.
And?

Wow.....you have been posting here a whole two days and you are calling me arrogant. Amazing. You are starting to remind me of my old debating buddies BarryGoldwater/USalpenstock. :p
You apparently have zero knowledge on the subject but you act as though you know everything. That is arrogant.

Now let's see what you brought to the discussion table in the way of proof:
Let's see what proof you've brought. Oh wait, all you have is rhetoric.


Oh goody......an OP-ED from a pro Iraq War flunky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Peters#Opinion_on_the_Iraq_war):
If you have looked through the article and found anything wrong factually then you can talk to me. Otherwise sit down and shut up.


And from the same Wiki article, what did he write in USA Today this November past about the Iraq War?
Well then it would appear that the situation has changed...



What does this unauthored blurb from Netscape reveal?
Why don't you read. I know it's kind of a new thing for you but I'm sure that you'll be able to handle it.

Hmmm good news/bad news huh? Let's see, the death toll of civilians was down to ONLY 1,241 for the month of June huh? This past week, there has ONLY been 453 deaths (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/recent/). Hmmm at that rate, the death toll for August will be 1812?
That is 41 per day. 35 are killed in the U.S. every day. I know that the U.S. has a much larger population but that is still a very low number for a war-zone.

Spoken like an army recruiter. Any lie goes, as long as you can't get sued for it. You think I don't know about the extended tours, the unit recalls, the national guard activations? Your percentages are pure rubbish.
The percentages are all 100% correct. Also, I'm not a recruiter and I'm not in the Army.



I read it. It was a load of whitewash. Utracia pointed out why. Skeptical commanders, temporary lulls and the best part, opinion pieces.

I have an opinion piece that says that you've got the total intellect of a turnip. Since it's an opinion piece it must be true huh?
No, Utracia shrugged it off in favor of believing propaganda from Harry Reid.

And yet those military people are saying they are being cautious to this new help. I'm sure there must be all kinds of problems like wondering if they can even be trusted after all. Controlling them in any meaningful way must also be troublesome.
Yeah, being cautious is a good thing. Though it is very far from saying that we've lost and we should run away.



That is an opinion piece that is merely following YOUR opinion. Hardly proof.
Look at the bullets. If you can find anything factually wrong, let's hear it.


We have seen these downturns in violence before. It has always been temporary. Lets wait a bit longer before trumpeting our victory, alright?
Who's trumpeting victory, I'm saying that we CAN win and that we should not cut and run on the lie that we can't.

Who's trumpeting victory, I'm saying that we CAN win and that we should not cut and run on the lie that we can't.

Define winning.

Define winning.

My sig.

The percentages are all 100% correct.


Reality disagrees with you. Also, no proof other than opinion pieces.


Also, I'm not a recruiter and I'm not in the Army.


Retracting statements now are we? Who were we supposed to call again at the recruitment office? Olag?

And marines, army, navy, same difference. Don't like it? Tough.


No, Utracia shrugged it off in favor of believing propaganda from Harry Reid.

Like the propaganda opinion pieces you put up?

Definition of Winning in Iraq:
1) Effectively end the Sunni Insurgency
2) Expel Al-Qaeda from Iraq
3) Create a viable form of democracy in Iraq
4) Keep militia power in Baghdad under control
5) Have IA and IP take over their own security
6) Get economy to healthy level

1- The Sunni community is almost fully behind the insurgency and the only way to militarily end that is by massacre. I really hope you are not advocating that. The US have made no effort other than "lets kill them" to end the insurgency.

2 - Agreed. May I add they wouldn't be there in the first place if the US hadn't invaded.

3 - Agreed. Again the US government is completely failing to do this. They have cherry picked ministers and attempted to push through laws no Iraqi wants (oil laws).

4 - This is a police job not a military job.

5 - So do it then.

6 - So do it then instead of trying to wrest control of the Iraqi economy into American hands.

In effect your points are all valid. In reality, the US government and military is doing between nothing and very little to achieve these points.

Reality disagrees with you. Also, no proof other than opinion pieces.
800,000 have gone to Iraq. Roughly 3,500 have fallen. That is about .4%. Therefore, 99.6% survival rate. http://www.militarycity.com/polls/2006poll_iraq.php
That is the proof for the rest
You have no touch on reality.


Retracting statements now are we? Who were we supposed to call again at the recruitment office? Olag?

And marines, army, navy, same difference. Don't like it? Tough.
No, not the same. And I don't work at a recruitment office. I work at an OSO's office.


Like the propaganda opinion pieces you put up?
That would be valid if i had done that. But i guess you didn't even really read them. Did you? Not to mention that you wouldn't be able to truly know if they were false b/c you haven't done anything in your worthless life.

You apparently have zero knowledge on the subject but you act as though you know everything. That is arrogant.

Let's see what proof you've brought. Oh wait, all you have is rhetoric.

If you have looked through the article and found anything wrong factually then you can talk to me. Otherwise sit down and shut up.

Well then it would appear that the situation has changed...

Why don't you read. I know it's kind of a new thing for you but I'm sure that you'll be able to handle it.

That is 41 per day. 35 are killed in the U.S. every day. I know that the U.S. has a much larger population but that is still a very low number for a war-zone.
You don't have any concrete proof so you just hurl insults. Come back when you have proof and are actually prepared for a civilized debate. :D

1- The Sunni community is almost fully behind the insurgency and the only way to militarily end that is by massacre. I really hope you are not advocating that. The US have made no effort other than "lets kill them" to end the insurgency.
6 months ago, yes. Now, no.
2 - Agreed. May I add they wouldn't be there in the first place if the US hadn't invaded.
Yes you may.
3 - Agreed. Again the US government is completely failing to do this. They have cherry picked ministers and attempted to push through laws no Iraqi wants (oil laws).
Though there is some truth in that I don't agree completely. By putting that 3rd objective I was trying to say that we need an Iraqi version of democracy, not more laws pushed through with western democracy. I think a more federalized gov't is what they need right now and we are moving in that direction.
4 - This is a police job not a military job.
Though I don't see what you are getting at I will say that it is both right now. Military against the hardliners like Al-Qaeda and police with most everything else.
5 - So do it then.
In progress. 300,000 is a good amount but they still need time from what I hear.
6 - So do it then instead of trying to wrest control of the Iraqi economy into American hands.
We are doing it. It's a part of everything that we do.

You don't have any concrete proof so you just hurl insults. Come back when you have proof and are actually prepared for a civilized debate. :D

I already have. You came back without having read anything and with rhetoric.

There is a wait time between you go through OCS or PLC (Officer Boot Camp) and when you go to TBS (Marine Offcer Finishing School). During that time you don't have to do anything. However, you can choose to do PTAD as a job inbetween that time. PTAD is where you work for an OSO (a Marine Officer recruiter). Basically all I do is make phone calls all day.

So your not a recruiter? :p

And I don't work at a recruitment office. I work at an OSO's office.
You are trying the bullshit baffles brains argument?

This fall, Officer Selection Officers stroll college campuses day after day looking for highly-qualified officer candidates. With the odds against them, OSOs give potential applicants their best efforts to make mission.

http://www.9mcd.usmc.mil/stories/oso2005.htm

“Being a good OSO is about having a great work ethic and keeping your priorities straight,” said Capt. Chad Morton, RS Kansas City OSO. “As an OSO, you’re at the recruiting station for one thing: putting highly-qualified officers in the Marine Corps.”

So your not a recruiter? :p

No.
1) I was explaining it simple b/c i was addressing somebody who didn't know what OIF was.

2) A recruiter deals solely with the enlisted side

3) An OSO is a b-billet that I hope that I never have. I'm just making phone calls. Kind of like an intern.

6 months ago, yes. Now, no.

Yes you may.

Though there is some truth in that I don't agree completely. By putting that 3rd objective I was trying to say that we need an Iraqi version of democracy, not more laws pushed through with western democracy. I think a more federalized gov't is what they need right now and we are moving in that direction.

Though I don't see what you are getting at I will say that it is both right now. Military against the hardliners like Al-Qaeda and police with most everything else.

In progress. 300,000 is a good amount but they still need time from what I hear.

We are doing it. It's a part of everything that we do.

SO my argument was "you are not doign this, please show me where you and how you are".

YOUR argument is "yes we are, but I'm not going to actually prove anything".

???????????

SO my argument was "you are not doign this, please show me where you and how you are".

YOUR argument is "yes we are, but I'm not going to actually prove anything".

???????????

If you want to address each point specifically, then do so. We are not going to do this in this manner. It too inefficient.

I already have. You came back without having read anything and with rhetoric.
I read all your links and they proved nothing. I responded with up to date info that refutes your claims and you are at a loss. Unless you can do better, I don't see any point in carrying on the debate with you. :eek:

No.
1) I was explaining it simple b/c i was addressing somebody who didn't know what OIF was.

2) A recruiter deals solely with the enlisted side

3) An OSO is a b-billet that I hope that I never have. I'm just making phone calls. Kind of like an intern.

You are working in a recruiting office for a recruiter, which you have alreadu said. To then turn round and say "but I'm not a recruiter" is pretty disingenious.. Its like me saying "I'm a ticket inspector on the railway, but I'm not a railwayman."

I read all your links and they proved nothing. I responded with up to date info that refutes your claims and you are at a loss. Unless you can do better, I don't see any point in carrying on the debate with you. :eek:

You came up with an opinion poll from January 2005...

You are working in a recruiting office for a recruiter, which you have alreadu said. To then turn round and say "but I'm not a recruiter" is pretty disingenious.. Its like me saying "I'm a ticket inspector on the railway, but I'm not a railwayman."

I said that i was working at an OSO office and then explained what that was in simple terms for a simple person.

You are working in a recruiting office for a recruiter, which you have alreadu said. To then turn round and say "but I'm not a recruiter" is pretty disingenious.. Its like me saying "I'm a ticket inspector on the railway, but I'm not a railwayman."
I do believe that most of what has been presented by Kemlorn is disengenuous and I think we are wasting our time with this troll.

If you want to address each point specifically, then do so. We are not going to do this in this manner. It too inefficient.

Inefficient? Listen, if you want to make a point don't be afraid if you're asked to back it up, that is how debate works.

One at a time.

1- Ending the Sunni insurgency

My point - The US has made no attempt other than militarily to resolve this. To do so involves getting the Sunni community on side, and accordinh to all the polls quoted here, that is not happening.

Your point -Maybe six months ago.

So, in conclusion, please disprove my statement and prove yours with some credible evidence please.

You are working in a recruiting office for a recruiter, which you have alreadu said. To then turn round and say "but I'm not a recruiter" is pretty disingenious.. Its like me saying "I'm a ticket inspector on the railway, but I'm not a railwayman."

Well, that depends on what he does in that office. I worked with National Guard recruiters for a while, and I wasn't a recruiter. I did a lot of the bitch work in the office, running paperwork around, picking up and dropping off prospects, things like that. I wasn't supposed to talk to the prospects about the benefits/disadvantages of enlistment because if I said something that wasn't true they would blame the recruiter for it, who would then pass all blame on to me with interest.

Inefficient? Listen, if you want to make a point don't be afraid if you're asked to back it up, that is how debate works.

One at a time.

1- Ending the Sunni insurgency

My point - The US has made no attempt other than militarily to resolve this. To do so involves getting the Sunni community on side, and accordinh to all the polls quoted here, that is not happening.

Your point -Maybe six months ago.

So, in conclusion, please disprove my statement and prove yours with some credible evidence please.
1) I'm sure that you have heard about U.S. forces and former sunni insurgents working together
a) I'm sure that you have also heard about Sunni clerics aiding Americans now. The clerics are the ones who drive opinion. Their followers believe what they believe. It would then follow that they are behind Americans now also
citation 1 (http://www.army.mil/-news/2007/08/07/4312-tribal-leaders-join-forces-to-fight-terrorists-in-diyala-province/)
2) The Marines have been following closely the 3 block war template for its operations in Al-Anbar and they have had huge successes
citation 2 (http://fairuse.100webcustomers.com/fairenough/latimes972.html)

1) I'm sure that you have heard about U.S. forces and former sunni insurgents working together
a) I'm sure that you have also heard about Sunni clerics aiding Americans now. The clerics are the ones who drive opinion. Their followers believe what they believe. It would then follow that they are behind Americans now also
citation 1 (http://www.army.mil/-news/2007/08/07/4312-tribal-leaders-join-forces-to-fight-terrorists-in-diyala-province/)
2) The Marines have been following closely the 3 block war template for its operations in Al-Anbar and they have had huge successes
citation 2 (http://fairuse.100webcustomers.com/fairenough/latimes972.html)

1) No I havn't it hasn't been reported anywhere in the (overwhelmingly conservative) British media.

a) That citation is from an army website. They are hardly going to say any different are they?

2) Citizens hate the insurgents because they killed them. Big surprise.

Now please show me moves made by the US government and military to get the Sunni community on side, as you havn't yet.

1) No I havn't it hasn't been reported anywhere in the (overwhelmingly conservative) British media.

a) That citation is from an army website. They are hardly going to say any different are they?
That is scary as it has been reported overwhelmingly in mainstream sources here.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-boot24apr24,0,6844465.column?coll=la-news-columns
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0504/p06s01-woiq.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article2121006.ece

2) Citizens hate the insurgents because they killed them. Big surprise.
Do you know what the 3 block war is?

1) That is scary as it has been reported overwhelmingly in mainstream sources here.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-boot24apr24,0,6844465.column?coll=la-news-columns
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0504/p06s01-woiq.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article2121006.ece


2) Do you know what the 3 block war is?

1) I'm not American

2) No as I'm not in the US military. Is it how the US is taking non-military means to win over the Sunni community as that is what you are bbeing asked to prove?

800,000 have gone to Iraq. Roughly 3,500 have fallen. That is about .4%. Therefore, 99.6% survival rate. http://www.militarycity.com/polls/2006poll_iraq.php
That is the proof for the rest
You have no touch on reality.


A count that doesn't include those that died of wounds, only those who died immediately. Who doesn't have a touch on reality?


No, not the same. And I don't work at a recruitment office. I work at an OSO's office.



There is a wait time between you go through OCS or PLC (Officer Boot Camp) and when you go to TBS (Marine Offcer Finishing School). During that time you don't have to do anything. However, you can choose to do PTAD as a job inbetween that time. PTAD is where you work for an OSO (a Marine Officer recruiter). Basically all I do is make phone calls all day.


Liar.


That would be valid if i had done that.


Which you did.


Not to mention that you wouldn't be able to truly know if they were false b/c you haven't done anything in your worthless life.

Now you resort to insults without knowing a thing about me. Do you know me? Of course not. But I do know enough about you, so generously provided by you, to make some rough judgments. You on the other hand, have zilch. Must go hand in hand with your empty words.

In any case, we're done here. Your credibility on NSG is the same as dung now to everyone but the delusional strawmen making likes of RO.

You can keep posting, but I'm not the one who will be wasting the effort throwing dung in the air.

1) I'm not American
The last source was from the UK.
2) No as I'm not in the US military. Is it how the US is taking non-military means to win over the Sunni community as that is what you are bbeing asked to prove?
It is the idea that you can and have to carry out combat operations, peacekeeping operations and humanitarian operations in the same operational area in order to be successful.

Next point?

A count that doesn't include those that died of wounds, only those who died immediately. Who doesn't have a touch on reality?
Yes, the 3,500 counts those who succumbed to wounds later on. Stop making shit up.


Liar.
A recruiter is somebody who works with potential enlisted personnel. And I said that I work for an OSO. So no, i didn't lie.


Which you did.
Try again

I hope the US looses and more of it's troops die.

Death to the Empire!:)

Spoken like an ignorant liberal. 10% of our military personnel are in combat MOSs. 50% have never been overseas. Only 20% have gone overseas more than once. You have a 99.6% chance of surviving if you are sent overseas. No, you just subscribe to an overly gloomy image.
.

10% is meaningless in a guerrilla war. Everyone in a combat theater is under fire. In doesn't matter if your MOS is rifleman or medical doctor or secretary or priest.

Does that 50% include all branches? Coast Guard? Merchant Marine? How about Air Force that fly over but don't set down? (I can always tell when there's a big battle, the B2 stealths fly times change.) How is the Navy counted?

What is your chance of not becoming a "casualty" in a war zone? "Surviving" is one thing, coming out with all the pieces is another.

I hope the US looses

And I hope the US tightens!