NationStates Jolt Archive

It was agreed earlier this week, that Pretoria, the executive capital of South Africa would henceforth become Tshwane. Pretoria was named after the Afrikaner explorer, Andries Pretorius. Yes, he was a white Boer hero who defeated the Zulus, and yes Pretoria was seen as apartheid capital of South Africa, but you can't just forget about history, no matter how horrifying it was. Besides, look at what has happened to Zimbabwe since Mugabe changed the name of Salisbury to Harare.

That'll screw up people during WC 2010.

Besides, look at what has happened to Zimbabwe since Mugabe changed the name of Salisbury to Harare.

Yeah, that's definitely the reason it's going down the shitter; they changed the name of the capital.

Teshwane? Shetwane? Teswhane? What? *garbles the pronunciation some more*

Meh. Pretoria.

Somehow, I don't think that changing the name to Harare is what caused Zimbabwe to slide into chaos.

Changing the name of a city doesn't bode ill. If it did, then New Amsterdam (now New York) would never have been a success.

tshwane is a much cooler name. i've always thought pretoria sounded kind of... prissy, i think that's the right word.

It was agreed earlier this week, that Pretoria, the executive capital of South Africa would henceforth become Tshwane. Pretoria was named after the Afrikaner explorer, Andries Pretorius. Yes, he was a white Boer hero who defeated the Zulus, and yes Pretoria was seen as apartheid capital of South Africa, but you can't just forget about history, no matter how horrifying it was. Besides, look at what has happened to Zimbabwe since Mugabe changed the name of Salisbury to Harare.

:rolleyes:

Every fule knows it was because they stopped calling it Rhodesia

I don't much care if they call it the "City of the invisible pink pony". They want to go from one goofy name to the other, more power to 'em.

I'm all for the sublimation of colonial vestiges.

ZA has been on a one way road to destruction since the Black Africans took it over. Erasing the history of what once seemed to be a promising great country, the best Africa has seen, is just one of the mistakes they are making with the new found power they have. If I lived in ZA, I'd have left already to America or England or Germany. Luckily, many Afrikaaner think exactly the same way I do, and HAVE left for these countries because of the shithole ZA has turned into.

It's the Afrikaaner who founded that country and created the history there. The Black Africans have no right to destroy the country and erase the history...yet indeed they are. :(

ZA has been on a one way road to destruction since the Black Africans took it over. Erasing the history of what once seemed to be a promising great country, the best Africa has seen, is just one of the mistakes they are making with the new found power they have. If I lived in ZA, I'd have left already to America or England or Germany. Luckily, many Afrikaaner think exactly the same way I do, and HAVE left for these countries because of the shithole ZA has turned into.

It's the Afrikaaner who founded that country and created the history there. The Black Africans have no right to destroy the country and erase the history...yet indeed they are. :(

You forget.

Anyone who wins the war gets to write history - and to make it.

Crying about it doesn't count.

It's the Afrikaaner who founded that country and created the history there. The Black Africans have no right to destroy the country and erase the history...yet indeed they are. :(

All I can say to this is :rolleyes:.

Another typical 'whitey is always rightey, and anything we did wrong shall be ignored in favour of demonising the non-whitey' rant from AI.

All I can say to this is :rolleyes:.

Another typical 'whitey is always rightey, and anything we did wrong shall be ignored in favour of demonising the non-whitey' rant from AI.

When you think about it, it's like saying the First Nation people got here and did it right, and then the Europeans came over and fucked us over...

When you think about it, it's like saying the First Nation people got here and did it right, and then the Europeans came over and fucked us over...


It's like saying, "The First Nations were here, we came, fucked them over, destroyed their traditional socieities, and set up our own colonial, racist regime, and now they want to kick us out, but are disfunctional, which is totally not our fault even though it is, and how dare they...just because they were here first, this is OUR country and they have no right to mess with it."

It's like saying, "The First Nations were here, we came, fucked them over, destroyed their traditional socieities, and set up our own colonial, racist regime, and now they want to kick us out, but are disfunctional, which is totally not our fault even though it is, and how dare they...just because they were here first, this is OUR country and they have no right to mess with it."

Just remember - might makes right, and the winners write the laws and history books. It works both ways - the OP is upset that the whites were on the short end of the stick this time around.

It would have been way cooler had they picked Archona.

It would have been way cooler had they picked Archona.

I think it would have been better to name it after that city in Resident Evil.

It was agreed earlier this week, that Pretoria, the executive capital of South Africa would henceforth become Tshwane. Pretoria was named after the Afrikaner explorer, Andries Pretorius. Yes, he was a white Boer hero who defeated the Zulus, and yes Pretoria was seen as apartheid capital of South Africa, but you can't just forget about history, no matter how horrifying it was. Besides, look at what has happened to Zimbabwe since Mugabe changed the name of Salisbury to Harare.

its their country they can call it what they want.

im still "pissed" that suddenly we have to call peking by the more correct pronunciation of beijing "just" because the owners of the country want us to.
[/foolishness]

are there calls to rename the whole country something more interesting than "south africa"?

it wil be called that but you can bet that most that lives there will mostly refer to it still as Pretoria like Louis Trichardt

Hmm.... seems like a rather waste of money, and seems to stirring up old troubles rather than anything else.

Why not do what they do in Wales and give places two names. You places named in both Welsh and English. People call it which ever they prefer. Like Caerdydd or Cardiff.

In the same way they can take responsibility for a the changed name, they can take responsibility for everything else that has changed. But the problem is that they won't take "credit" for all the problems that most of the changes cause. That "credit" of course goes to the evil colonialists.

The point isn't that what used to be Salisbury is now Harare, but that the country is completely disfunctional. No one really cares about the color or shape of a flag, but they do care that they can't get basic foodstuffs in a country that was a breadbasket for Africa. No one really cares who runs South Africa as long as it is well run and provides the basic requirements of a safe and peaceful life for all it's citizens. Regretably those basics are not being provided and the future appears even less certain than the present...

I would vote Tschwane if it meant something cool. But I don't know... erm... that language. :D

I would be more sanguine about the change if the populace of Pretoria had actually had a say in this.

http://www.economist.com/world/africa/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9236559
The name game
May 24th 2007 | JOHANNESBURG
From The Economist print edition

Changing names is making some people cross

VISITORS, taxi drivers and residents are bracing themselves for a bit of confusion in the port-city of Durban, now also known as eThekwini. Over 180 buildings, streets and roads have been targeted for renaming; hardly unusual, as many names, including those of some cities, are being changed to reflect post-apartheid South Africa. Last year Johannesburg International Airport, formerly Jan Smuts, was once again renamed, this time after Oliver Tambo, one of the ruling African National Congress's leaders. But in Durban, as in many other places, changing names is proving more controversial.

A proposal to rename Pretoria as Tshwane so annoyed opposition parties that it has been shelved for now. Many Afrikaners—descendants of South Africa's first white settlers, mostly of Dutch stock—have been protesting against what they see as an attempt to erase their heritage. In Durban proposals to rename streets after heroes of the new South Africa, such as Yasser Arafat and Fidel Castro, have been met with harrumphs. One odd idea was to rename Point Road after Mahatma Gandhi, India's independence leader and moral beacon, who spent many years in South Africa; it is in the city's red-light district.

-continues-

There's a fuller story.

As for whatever South Africa is becoming these days: they need a few good politicians, which they don't have right now. Under Apartheid Black education was...inadequate, so you had a bunch of people who lacked the basic knowledge and healthy cynicism to be good voters, or indeed good politicians. Add to that the mess the Apartheid regime left behind in terms of economic development, segregation and inequality, and it's hardly a surprise that the country's had a hard time.

Though I'd suggest to those who think that SA was all peachy before "the Blacks took over" that maybe the same problems existed, they just weren't reported or cared about.

ZA has been on a one way road to destruction since the Black Africans took it over. Erasing the history of what once seemed to be a promising great country, the best Africa has seen, is just one of the mistakes they are making with the new found power they have. If I lived in ZA, I'd have left already to America or England or Germany. Luckily, many Afrikaaner think exactly the same way I do, and HAVE left for these countries because of the shithole ZA has turned into.

It's the Afrikaaner who founded that country and created the history there. The Black Africans have no right to destroy the country and erase the history...yet indeed they are. :(

You forget.

Anyone who wins the war gets to write history - and to make it.

Crying about it doesn't count.

Which is what the Europeans told the Africans when they took over.
Hey, turnabout is fair play.

http://www.economist.com/world/africa/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9236559


There's a fuller story.

As for whatever South Africa is becoming these days: they need a few good politicians, which they don't have right now. Under Apartheid Black education was...inadequate, so you had a bunch of people who lacked the basic knowledge and healthy cynicism to be good voters, or indeed good politicians. Add to that the mess the Apartheid regime left behind in terms of economic development, segregation and inequality, and it's hardly a surprise that the country's had a hard time.

Though I'd suggest to those who think that SA was all peachy before "the Blacks took over" that maybe the same problems existed, they just weren't reported or cared about.

Seriously, if a country has Yasser Arafat and Fidel Castro as heroes, it seriously needs to reevaluate itself.

Seriously, if a country has Yasser Arafat and Fidel Castro as heroes, it seriously needs to reevaluate itself.
Well, the both of them fought against unfair regimes (which I can understand South Africans identifying with), and Castro did a lot to help with the independence of a bunch of African colonies.

The problem isn't simple white supremacy in the past. India was ruled by such a policy, but found itself perfectly capable, with some bumps and bruises, of self-government at independence nearly 50 years before South Africa dumped Apartheid. The system of the Afrikaners was to keep the country at war with itself, in the manner of the ancient Spartans and Helots. There was no condescending paternalism, no civilizing mission, no white man's burden, in the Afrikaner mindset. Just a siege mentality the white political elite perpetuated not just for profit, but to maintain political power. Keep the blacks afraid of the whites and create an underclass of cheap, exploitable labor. Keep the whites afraid of the blacks and you'll always have a boogeyman waiting if disaffected whites strayed from the Apartheid line and created a serious challenge to the National Party.

Yes South Africa could have been a great nation, but it mortgaged its future for short term greed and power by poisoning the hearts of its people with fear. No civil society can exist without trust, and there was no preparation to build that trust before universal suffrage was granted.

I have to go with the status quo...

Well, the both of them fought against unfair regimes (which I can understand South Africans identifying with), and Castro did a lot to help with the independence of a bunch of African colonies.

Touché.

You forget.

Anyone who wins the war gets to write history - and to make it.

Crying about it doesn't count.

That's cool, because the Afrikaaners of Zimbabwe all left and have rebuilt their lives, while the blacks are starving to death.

Fun times.

i vote Pretoria because of this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/eb/FGEPeterbusUnum.png/250px-FGEPeterbusUnum.png


[/100% failure to take thread seriously :)]

Surely the South African government should have more important priorities than renaming their cities? I mean, surely putting the same time and effort into reversing the appalling injustices of the apartheid era would be far better and more productive?

That's cool, because the Afrikaaners of Zimbabwe all left and have rebuilt their lives, while the blacks are starving to death.

Fun times.

The blacks in Zimbabwe made their own choice.

tshwane is a much cooler name. i've always thought pretoria sounded kind of... prissy, i think that's the right word.

Umm I don't know about prissy, but it makes me think of Romans!

That's cool, because the Afrikaaners of Zimbabwe all left and have rebuilt their lives, while the blacks are starving to death.

Fun times.
It's absolutely not "cool"...The Whites in Zimbabwe didn't exactly just "all leave".....:rolleyes: Ignorance is bliss.

An eviction order came into force at midnight local time for an estimated 2,900 white farmers, as part of the Zimbabwe Government's land redistribution programme. (http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2182057.stm)

No compensation for white Zimbabwe farmers (http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/610981.stm)

Squatters occupy white Zimbabwe farms (http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/659746.stm)

Whites in Zimbabwe arn't so much as "all leaving" as you so ignorantly put it, but rather being economically exterminated.:rolleyes:

While theres very few governments that make good on election promises, African leaders have it very easy in persuading their voting sheep that they are right for the job. I think the problem comes from people being uneducated. This is to blame on both the local culture and the government that like to keep control. Think about it... If I knew how to make $ 10000 a day with very little work, would I share it with you. No. Now why would the politicians allow their citizens the intelligence to realize they are being screwed?

Umm I don't know about prissy, but it makes me think of Romans!

the first syllable makes me thing 'pretty boy'. so prissy isn't quite the right word, ..precious maybe? i don't know.

the first syllable makes me thing 'pretty boy'. so prissy isn't quite the right word, ..precious maybe? i don't know.

Ohh I think the word you are looking for is parrot!;)

It's absolutely not "cool"...The Whites in Zimbabwe didn't exactly just "all leave".....:rolleyes: Ignorance is bliss.

An eviction order came into force at midnight local time for an estimated 2,900 white farmers, as part of the Zimbabwe Government's land redistribution programme. (http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2182057.stm)

No compensation for white Zimbabwe farmers (http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/610981.stm)

Squatters occupy white Zimbabwe farms (http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/659746.stm)

Whites in Zimbabwe arn't so much as "all leaving" as you so ignorantly put it, but rather being economically exterminated.:rolleyes:

boohoo, forgive me for not really crying a river for a bunch of colonials getting expelled. sure it was needlessly violent, but really, how does one expect the result of decades of resentment to manifest? and before you have a go, most of my mother's family were colonialists, in India, Burma and many African countries. My mum was even brought up in Ghana. I was brought up by people who thought it was their right to rule the world and frankly they and their like should expect everything they now get.

Ohh I think the word you are looking for is parrot!;)

LOL :D

boohoo, forgive me for not really crying a river for a bunch of colonials getting expelled. sure it was needlessly violent, but really, how does one expect the result of decades of resentment to manifest? and before you have a go, most of my mother's family were colonialists, in India, Burma and many African countries. My mum was even brought up in Ghana. I was brought up by people who thought it was their right to rule the world and frankly they and their like should expect everything they now get.
Yeah that's all great but what does this have to do with the fact that we are talking about the lives of these people. Regardless of old colonial politics, this is the only thing they know in their lives. They have been born in raised in these countries and know a hell of a lot more about working the land than the Blacks do. They have worked that land and they OWN that land. You know what, I'm glad Zimbabwe is taking that land. As it is, it's realizing (or its not) that the Blacks have no idea how to work the land, and as a result the country is rapidly falling into the shithole (even more so than it already is). And you know what, the Whites will leave for America and England and Germany....and the Blacks will be stuck with a poor wasteland because they tried "fair racial redistribution". Racist fucks.

boohoo, forgive me for not really crying a river for a bunch of colonials getting expelled. sure it was needlessly violent, but really, how does one expect the result of decades of resentment to manifest? and before you have a go, most of my mother's family were colonialists, in India, Burma and many African countries. My mum was even brought up in Ghana. I was brought up by people who thought it was their right to rule the world and frankly they and their like should expect everything they now get.

As should the current people running Zimbabwe.

It's absolutely not "cool"...The Whites in Zimbabwe didn't exactly just "all leave".....:rolleyes: Ignorance is bliss.

An eviction order came into force at midnight local time for an estimated 2,900 white farmers, as part of the Zimbabwe Government's land redistribution programme. (http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2182057.stm)

No compensation for white Zimbabwe farmers (http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/610981.stm)

Squatters occupy white Zimbabwe farms (http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/659746.stm)

Whites in Zimbabwe arn't so much as "all leaving" as you so ignorantly put it, but rather being economically exterminated.:rolleyes:

I was referring to the fact that the white food producers are being discriminated against, thus leaving. The blacks who discriminate against them and then starve deserve what they get.

I was referring to the fact that the white food producers are being discriminated against, thus leaving. The blacks who discriminate against them and then starve deserve what they get.
Ah, in that case....couldn't agree more.

I was referring to the fact that the white food producers are being discriminated against, thus leaving. The blacks who discriminate against them and then starve deserve what they get.
Although they make the rest of the country (except Mugabe) starve with them, unfortunately.

The Brits conquered the damn place, they need a say in the matter. :p

Yeah that's all great but what does this have to do with the fact that we are talking about the lives of these people. Regardless of old colonial politics, this is the only thing they know in their lives. They have been born in raised in these countries and know a hell of a lot more about working the land than the Blacks do. They have worked that land and they OWN that land. You know what, I'm glad Zimbabwe is taking that land. As it is, it's realizing (or its not) that the Blacks have no idea how to work the land, and as a result the country is rapidly falling into the shithole (even more so than it already is). And you know what, the Whites will leave for America and England and Germany....and the Blacks will be stuck with a poor wasteland because they tried "fair racial redistribution". Racist fucks.

As should the current people running Zimbabwe.

Zimbabwe has a problem because of its corrupt and psychopathic leadership, not because Black's don't know how to farm. that's the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard. how can you possibly imagine that the populace of a country whose economy was almost entirely agrarian before the arrival of colonisers and largely so for most of the colonial period do not know how to farm. they do not have the resources for intensive agriculture perhaps, but that is mugabe's fault.

Zimbabwe has a problem because of its corrupt and psychopathic leadership, not because Black's don't know how to farm. that's the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard. how can you possibly imagine that the populace of a country whose economy was almost entirely agrarian before the arrival of colonisers and largely so for most of the colonial period do not know how to farm. they do not have the resources for intensive agriculture perhaps, but that is mugabe's fault.

Obviously, they don't know how to run a farm. Apparently, running a farm as a going concern that produces food requires more than the field hands to go out and do some work.

There's some business acumen, organization, etc. Whatever it is, they're lacking the experience to make it work.

You can't just say it's because of Mugabe. Yes, Mugabe set up the conditions for failure by seizing the farms and putting his henchmen in charge of the farms as a gift to them for winning the revolution. But that doesn't make them farmers.

If I buy a piano, that doesn't make me a concert pianist who can make a living playing the piano - not for a long time.

Obviously, they don't know how to run a farm. Apparently, running a farm as a going concern that produces food requires more than the field hands to go out and do some work.

There's some business acumen, organization, etc. Whatever it is, they're lacking the experience to make it work.

You can't just say it's because of Mugabe. Yes, Mugabe set up the conditions for failure by seizing the farms and putting his henchmen in charge of the farms as a gift to them for winning the revolution. But that doesn't make them farmers.

If I buy a piano, that doesn't make me a concert pianist who can make a living playing the piano - not for a long time.

like i said, Mugabe's fault. putting non-farmers in charge of farms that they care little about and don't wish to learn about isn't conjusive to proper food production and that was Mugabe's doing. as was making the country a pariah state that nobody wants to trade with so they can't source decent equipment.

like i said, Mugabe's fault. putting non-farmers in charge of farms that they care little about and don't wish to learn about isn't conjusive to proper food production and that was Mugabe's doing.

Yes! And they were on his side!

Racist fucks.

The irony is delicious.

It was agreed earlier this week, that Pretoria, the executive capital of South Africa would henceforth become Tshwane. Pretoria was named after the Afrikaner explorer, Andries Pretorius. Yes, he was a white Boer hero who defeated the Zulus, and yes Pretoria was seen as apartheid capital of South Africa, but you can't just forget about history, no matter how horrifying it was. Besides, look at what has happened to Zimbabwe since Mugabe changed the name of Salisbury to Harare.

I'm SO going to Hell...because the first thing I thought of (because I have a sick, twisted sense of humor) when I saw the thread title was, "What? We're having a poll over the most ridiculous names A-As give their kids?!?"

Let's just change the name of the capitol to Shaniqua. ;)

The irony is delicious.
Do you think it's cute using words like delicious to describe things that obviously arnt "delicious".

It ain't.