NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/08/03/Opinion/A_hospital_s_outrageo.shtml

I find this rather disgusting behavior coming from a medical facility regardless of their admittance procedure. Not only do they not comply with their own "Federal guidelines" but their own state law

Wow. That's just.....wow.

What kind of bastards are these people? I mean, they aren't even being bastard administrators who are sticking to the letter of their rules. Maybe they're bastard "Service guarantees citi-I mean, treatment" types.

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/08/03/Opinion/A_hospital_s_outrageo.shtml

I find this rather disgusting behavior coming from a medical facility regardless of their admittance procedure. Not only do they not comply with their own "Federal guidelines" but their own state law

Umm...aren't hospitals supposed to stop people from dying?

Healthcare these days dosen't seem too healthy.

Umm...aren't hospitals supposed to stop peopel from dying?

They are at least suposed to try

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/08/03/Opinion/A_hospital_s_outrageo.shtml

I find this rather disgusting behavior coming from a medical facility regardless of their admittance procedure. Not only do they not comply with their own "Federal guidelines" but their own state law

That's insanely ludicrous, not to mention absolutely horrendous, insulting, and--as far as I'm concerned--murder, or manslaughter, or something.

That's insanely ludicrous, not to mention absolutely horrendous, insulting, and--as far as I'm concerned--murder, or manslaughter, or something.

Criminal Negligence perhaps?

Criminal Negligence perhaps?

Err, yes, that's what I was looking for.

Criminal Negligence perhaps?

Negligent homicide sounds more like something that'll have you locked away for a decade or two, but all I know of law I learned from TV.

They are at least suposed to try

Ain't that the truth.

Woah, woah. Wait. As I hear it, aren't US hospitals required to give emergency care whether the patient is theirs, is on their property, or whatever conditions?

You commie! Don't you know if it was a free market hospital this would not happen??!?!?!

Yes that was supposed to be sarcasm


Anyhow, I am not surprised. I was sent to the hospital by HR due to a dumb chest. I told them I had chest pains and they made me wait for an hour to see a doctor. This was even with PPO.

Things are pretty screwed all over.

You commie! Don't you know if it was a free market hospital this would not happen??!?!?!

Yes that was supposed to be sarcasm


Anyhow, I am not surprised. I was sent to the hospital by HR due to a dumb chest. I told them I had chest pains and they made me wait for an hour to see a doctor. This was even with PPO.

Things are pretty screwed all over.

You didn't actually have a heart attack, did you?!

Bureaucracy kills.

Gee FAG, I saw your name on this and I was expecting some insane bullshit about how our VA hospitals are a privlidge earned by being in the military, and only those who bravely risk their lives deserve the treatment by these noble doctors and how by making the wise and honorable choice to let this man die they were sparing resources for those veterans who deserve it.

It appears even you have some shame.

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/08/03/Opinion/A_hospital_s_outrageo.shtml

I find this rather disgusting behavior coming from a medical facility regardless of their admittance procedure. Not only do they not comply with their own "Federal guidelines" but their own state law
Wow. That's incredible.

Gee FAG, I saw your name on this and I was expecting some insane bullshit about how our VA hospitals are a privlidge earned by being in the military, and only those who bravely risk their lives deserve the treatment by these noble doctors and how by making the wise and honorable choice to let this man die they were sparing resources for those veterans who deserve it.

Good luck trying to cram that into two words. :)

that's horrendous.

I wonder post how many employees have put in their two weeks notice.

Ugh, that's disgusting. The doctor who refused them should face criminal charges.

I wonder what would have happened if the people suffering a heart attack was an important politician or say the local governor, would they have done the same thing?

Let's hope this guy has an ambulance driver or something in his family. One that will gladly return the favor when the DOCTOR that pulled this crap needs care... "Sorry, I can't put him in the ambulance, I only work for the VA hospital, and he didn't suffer the heart attack IN it..."

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/08/03/Opinion/A_hospital_s_outrageo.shtml

I find this rather disgusting behavior coming from a medical facility regardless of their admittance procedure. Not only do they not comply with their own "Federal guidelines" but their own state law
Okay, this instance was unforgivable. But where do you draw the line? Or should the VA hospital be open to any and every complaint? VA care is bad enough without making it a charity hospital for the masses...

Okay, this instance was unforgivable. But where do you draw the line? Or should the VA hospital be open to any and every complaint? VA care is bad enough without making it a charity hospital for the masses...

The line doesn't need to be drawn. Everyone deserves to be treat for life threatening illnesses, regardless, of colour, creed or military service. In other words, draw the line at human beings.

Okay, this instance was unforgivable. But where do you draw the line? Or should the VA hospital be open to any and every complaint? VA care is bad enough without making it a charity hospital for the masses...

I think the VA handbook is a good place to start if they had actually followed it

"If a person requires emergency care and has been determined to be administratively ineligible for enrollment (in other words, a nonveteran), the applicant must be provided humanitarian emergency care"


They must provide emergency care until the person is stabilized and can be transported to a facility that can take care of his needs.

I would also be fore the ability for insurance companies to reimburse the VA system if they have insurance.

The line doesn't need to be drawn. Everyone deserves to be treat for life threatening illnesses, regardless, of colour, creed or military service. In other words, draw the line at human beings.
But you are drawing a line. And it turns out that there is already a policy that requires treating a person for a life-threating condition.

But are you asking that the network of VA hospitals be turned into federal charity hospitals of some sort? Where any and every complaint must be treated?

Executions are in order, and that's not a fucking joke.

Okay, this instance was unforgivable. But where do you draw the line? Or should the VA hospital be open to any and every complaint? VA care is bad enough without making it a charity hospital for the masses...

A hospital may not need to keep people in for continuous treatment unless transferring the person can harm them. It DOES, however, need to allow people in immediate need of care into its fucking ER. It's in the expression: EMERGENCY Room. Should keeping treatment in the hospital - as opposed to transferring - prove necessary, they should keep the treatment in. It's not acceptable to let someone die so "the hospital isn't for the masses". Not any and every, but, yes, when NEEDED, the hospital should open its doors.

But you are drawing a line. And it turns out that there is already a policy that requires treating a person for a life-threating condition.

But are you asking that the network of VA hospitals be turned into federal charity hospitals of some sort? Where any and every complaint must be treated?

I'm drawing a line at human beings. How could you possibly object to this?

I am not asking that. I am asking that the US introduce a sensible health care system as opposed to the total balls up they have at the moment.

And why do veterans get special health care more than others? Another example of American worship of the military. How come firemen or police officers don't have their own hospitals? They have risked their life for their country. And what about artists or poets? People who have spent their whole lives attemptiong to improve their nation's (and the worlds) culture? Does their input to the nation not get recognised? Where do you draw the line there? Exactly where the sensible person would draw it - at being a human being.

A hospital may not need to keep people in for continuous treatment unless transferring the person can harm them. It DOES, however, need to allow people in immediate need of care into its fucking ER. It's in the expression: EMERGENCY Room. Should keeping treatment in the hospital - as opposed to transferring - prove necessary, they should keep the treatment in. It's not acceptable to let someone die so "the hospital isn't for the masses". Not any and every, but, yes, when NEEDED, the hospital should open its doors.
I think we established that the VA was responsible for doing just that about two posts back.

[sidebar]
Cuiaba was nice. Churrasco was good, too.

I'm drawing a line at human beings. How could you possibly object to this?

I am not asking that. I am asking that the US introduce a sensible health care system as opposed to the total balls up they have at the moment.

And why do veterans get special health care more than others? Another example of American worship of the military. How come firemen or police officers don't have their own hospitals? They have risked their life for their country. And what about artists or poets? People who have spent their whole lives attemptiong to improve their nation's (and the worlds) culture? Does their input to the nation not get recognised? Where do you draw the line there? Exactly where the sensible person would draw it - at being a human being.
It's a bargain that the government makes with it's service members. Do the country's dirty work and you get a reward at the end. It's not a great reward, but it's better than nothing for many indigent vets.

Part of the bargain is that they don't have to wait in line behind a dozen kids with ear infections to get the care that was promised.

I think we established that the VA was responsible for doing just that about two posts back.

[sidebar]
Cuiaba was nice. Churrasco was good, too.

That even assumes there SHOULD be a hospital exclusively for veterans - it sounds a lot like the Affirmative Action some people on both sides of the political spectrum are rightly so against - but...

(Sidebar: You should try São Paulo. And, about Churrasco: Told you. You SHOULD have eaten a Feijoada if you had the chance, as well...)

It's a bargain that the government makes with it's service members. Do the country's dirty work and you get a reward at the end. It's not a great reward, but it's better than nothing for many indigent vets.

Part of the bargain is that they don't have to wait in line behind a dozen kids with ear infections to get the care that was promised.

The CIA does the country's dirty work and they don't get the hospitals...

(I'm waiting for a "touché" here)

It's a bargain that the government makes with it's service members. Do the country's dirty work and you get a reward at the end. It's not a great reward, but it's better than nothing for many indigent vets.

Part of the bargain is that they don't have to wait in line behind a dozen kids with ear infections to get the care that was promised.

Then exactly as I stated, military service somehow makes you more entitled than "ordinary" people. The reward for service is their pay and pension. So why this special deal which no one else gets? thats fair is it?

Then exactly as I stated, military service somehow makes you more entitled than "ordinary" people. The reward for service is their pay and pension. So why this special deal which no one else gets? thats fair is it?

To be fair, VA hospitals are not exactly the cream of the crop in hospitals. Most veterans would much rather go to a different hospital - one with more funding and better paid staff - if they can afford it.

The CIA does the country's dirty work and they don't get the hospitals...

(I'm waiting for a "touché" here)

I think it's a question of specialization and quantity of patients. The ex-spooks can feasibly have a normal insurance plan [as can policemen, firemen, etc Ollie] to meet their post-espionage needs. But there are just so many vets that need special treatment for any number of traumatic disorders, it is more effective, efficient, economical...to concentrate the doctors and equipment in VA centers.

To be fair, VA hospitals are not exactly the cream of the crop in hospitals. Most veterans would much rather go to a different hospital - one with more funding and better paid staff - if they can afford it.
No kidding. I had to be treated at a VA hospital for some lingering problems after I was discharged. It was good treatment, but the bureaucracy was something to behold.

I've been in the ER several times and overheard calls that an Emergency Patient was being transferred from Trippler Army Medical to our hospital. At least here, our Military Hospitals will take in and treat anyone. if you are not a vet or military personel tho, you will be transferred to a civilian hospital when you are stable for the travel.

that Pine Bay place is a blight and needs to be pruned.

I think it's a question of specialization and quantity of patients. The ex-spooks can feasibly have a normal insurance plan [as can policemen, firemen, etc Ollie] to meet their post-espionage needs. But there are just so many vets that need special treatment for any number of traumatic disorders, it is more effective, efficient, economical...to concentrate the doctors and equipment in VA centers.

Yeah, that point I made wasn't really a point, it was more of a joke. Why I wanted that "touché". :p

As for specialization... Well, maybe. If your point is "specialized" treatment as opposed to SPECIAL treatment, I even accept. It doesn't excuse at ALL what the hospital did in this case though. Then again, that's not even being argued here.

It's a bargain that the government makes with it's service members. Do the country's dirty work and you get a reward at the end. It's not a great reward, but it's better than nothing for many indigent vets.

Part of the bargain is that they don't have to wait in line behind a dozen kids with ear infections to get the care that was promised.

And for doing the country's dirty work the service members get... Walter Reed. Stigmatization of PTSD. Premature checkout and tossback into the ring. So on and so forth.

It's not as sweet a deal for the troops as people like to think.

I've been in the ER several times and overheard calls that an Emergency Patient was being transferred from Trippler Army Medical to our hospital. At least here, our Military Hospitals will take in and treat anyone. if you are not a vet or military personel tho, you will be transferred to a civilian hospital when you are stable for the travel.

that Pine Bay place is a blight and needs to be pruned.

Thank you.

I feel a justified lawsuit coming up...

I feel a justified lawsuit coming up...

Heck, they'd be justified in doing much worse!

I guess he didn't have his twenty-seven B-stroke-six form on hand...

This is really an atrocious failure of government bureaucracy, which is all the worse because the regulations allow everyone involved to get away with it by saying "we were just following protocol." Honestly, the chance of a bureaucratic slap on the wrist because you treated a non-veteran in a life-or-death situation is nothing compared to the worth of a man's life, one that has now been unjustly taken away.

Yeah, that point I made wasn't really a point, it was more of a joke. Why I wanted that "touché". :p

As for specialization... Well, maybe. If your point is "specialized" treatment as opposed to SPECIAL treatment, I even accept. It doesn't excuse at ALL what the hospital did in this case though. Then again, that's not even being argued here.

Touché...It was a good joke, but the audience was wanting.

And, yes, I figure that it's easier to concentrate battle trauma specialists in one place, rather than trying to farm out treatment to various facilities that have no experience in how to handle the treatment and therapy for those sorts of injuries.

[off-topic]
I'm sure São Paulo is great, but I'm not much of a city person. My dream vacation in South America would be to go to Patagonia for some good fly fishing.

I guess he didn't have his twenty-seven B-stroke-six form on hand...

This is really an atrocious failure of government bureaucracy, which is all the worse because the regulations allow everyone involved to get away with it by saying "we were just following protocol." Honestly, the chance of a bureaucratic slap on the wrist because you treated a non-veteran in a life-or-death situation is nothing compared to the worth of a man's life, one that has now been unjustly taken away.
I re-read the article and I'm not so sure the VA committed any atrocity. The paramedics requested to use Bay Pines, but were denied. The OpEd piece is wrought with hyperbole about how close Mr Surette was to Bay Pines, but never really quantifies the distance, nor the ability of the VA hospital to respond to heart attacks. It could very well be that the St Petersburg hospital was the best chance for his survival -- that he was doomed if he were treated at Bay Pines.

I think there's more (http://www.vawatchdog.org/07/nf07/nfJUL07/nf073007-6.htm) to the story that what this OpEd piece tells us...and courtesy of Google, yes there is!

The recording sheds new light on the sequence of events after Surette's collapse. And it appears to show that while Bay Pines did refuse to see Surette, paramedics also had concluded that it was best to take him elsewhere, which is something the county has not previously revealed.

Surette, 51, a 17-year Bay Pines employee, fell ill on the facility's property and was pronounced dead at St. Petersburg General. While both the county and the Department of Veterans Affairs have said it is impossible to know if the longer ambulance trip cost Surette his life, Hare said Saturday it is unlikely the extra time made any difference.

Hare is the division chief for Pinellas emergency medical services.

Surette, 51, a 17-year Bay Pines employee, fell ill on the facility's property and was pronounced dead at St. Petersburg General. While both the county and the Department of Veterans Affairs have said it is impossible to know if the longer ambulance trip cost Surette his life, Hare said Saturday it is unlikely the extra time made any difference.
[/indent]
Hare is the division chief for Pinellas emergency medical services.

as a paramedic, i can tell you that the closest hospital is were you want to be with a dead/dying guy. the care in the back of a rig is great, but having access to better interventions and meds is key. in the article it says that the medics where fighting to keep him alive. so, he wasn't dead yet. 10 mins out of the way is a long time to starve your body of oxygen.
va hospitals are only good for rehab and transfering the really sick people to a real hospital

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/08/04/Southpinellas/Amid_chaos__life_slip.shtml

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/08/07/Hillsborough/VA_will_treat_civilia.shtml

Apparently, Mr. Surette was about 200 feet away from the emergency room when he had a heart attack. And this does seem to be leading to some clarification on the policy of treating non-veterans so that this sort of thing does not happen again.

Due to the nature and number of conflicting reports, I would say that it was confusion that killed this man.

I'm finding it increasingly difficult to believe that a civilised nation would put its healthcare into the hands of bureaucrats. If you have private insurance, these bureaucrats are mandated to minimise the amount of treatment you receive by limiting your funds, and may keep you from receiving treatment altogether. If you are on the public system, apparently they are mandated to keep you from treatment unless you can prove that you fit into their bureaucratic pigeonhole. The USA needs a better system.

That is disgusting and all, but that was a pretty poorly written article. Unless it was some form of blog/opinion piece- I couldn't tell but I should've been able to.

That is disgusting and all, but that was a pretty poorly written article. Unless it was some form of blog/opinion piece- I couldn't tell but I should've been able to.

It was an opinion piece ... which is why it had "Opinion:" in the title
Here is a better written one
http://www.tampabays10.com/news/local/article.aspx?storyid=59844

It was an opinion piece ... which is why it had "Opinion:" in the title
Here is a better written one
http://www.tampabays10.com/news/local/article.aspx?storyid=59844

Okay, so how does this square with the further reports that EMTs had decided to bypass Bay Pines initially? Seems like experts on both sides (EMT and VA) are undecided on what the best course of action should have been.

as a paramedic, i can tell you that the closest hospital is were you want to be with a dead/dying guy. the care in the back of a rig is great, but having access to better interventions and meds is key. in the article it says that the medics where fighting to keep him alive. so, he wasn't dead yet. 10 mins out of the way is a long time to starve your body of oxygen.
va hospitals are only good for rehab and transfering the really sick people to a real hospital
I guess I don't get your point. Was the VA hospital the right destination, or were the EMTs correct in their original decision to bypass it for a better hospital?

Here, in Atlanta, any trauma victim stands a better chance of surviving if he goes to Grady Memorial, heart attacks generally go to the closest ER.

[off-topic]
I'm sure São Paulo is great, but I'm not much of a city person. My dream vacation in South America would be to go to Patagonia for some good fly fishing.

[off-topic]
I live in Belo Horizonte (Minas Gerais), a far more urban place than Cuiabá and far less urban place than São Paulo...

VA hospital lets employee die of heart attack rather then helping

They knew the risks of the job when they signed up. :D

They knew the risks of the job when they signed up. :D

My God!

You're a HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE person!

Marry me? :D

I re-read the article and I'm not so sure the VA committed any atrocity. The paramedics requested to use Bay Pines, but were denied. The OpEd piece is wrought with hyperbole about how close Mr Surette was to Bay Pines, but never really quantifies the distance, nor the ability of the VA hospital to respond to heart attacks. It could very well be that the St Petersburg hospital was the best chance for his survival -- that he was doomed if he were treated at Bay Pines.

I think there's more (http://www.vawatchdog.org/07/nf07/nfJUL07/nf073007-6.htm) to the story that what this OpEd piece tells us...and courtesy of Google, yes there is!

The recording sheds new light on the sequence of events after Surette's collapse. And it appears to show that while Bay Pines did refuse to see Surette, paramedics also had concluded that it was best to take him elsewhere, which is something the county has not previously revealed.

Surette, 51, a 17-year Bay Pines employee, fell ill on the facility's property and was pronounced dead at St. Petersburg General. While both the county and the Department of Veterans Affairs have said it is impossible to know if the longer ambulance trip cost Surette his life, Hare said Saturday it is unlikely the extra time made any difference.

Hare is the division chief for Pinellas emergency medical services.
That is the only part that is relevant. The story, along with the hyperbole, stands.

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/08/03/Opinion/A_hospital_s_outrageo.shtml

I find this rather disgusting behavior coming from a medical facility regardless of their admittance procedure. Not only do they not comply with their own "Federal guidelines" but their own state law

MORONS!!!!

Okay, this instance was unforgivable. But where do you draw the line? Or should the VA hospital be open to any and every complaint? VA care is bad enough without making it a charity hospital for the masses...

This wasn't the "masses." This was an employee, and he was already there, and it was an emergency situation, not a welfare mom with a case of gout.