NationStates Jolt Archive

I grew up around Lake Wabamun, and two years ago, there was a huge train derailment (http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2006/08/03/wabamun-oneyear.html) which resulted in heavy oil being puked into the lake, along with a preservative to treat power line poles. It was absolutely horrendous. CN Rail, had no emergency plans in place to deal with this sort of disaster, despite the fact that train derailments and chemical spills are not entirely rare on Canadian tracks.

Two years later, and this lake is still unsafe (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/story/2007/08/03/wabamun-twoyears.html). Of course, the way CN Rail spins it, the oil spill won't hurt the lake in the long run (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/story/2007/01/02/report-wabamun.html)

Lake Wabamun won't suffer any long-term damage from a train derailment that dumped 1.3 million litres of heavy bunker fuel oil and wood preservative nearby, according to a new report commissioned by CN Rail.

This lake was already in trouble, as there are two major coal-burning power plants on its shores. Pesticides, heavy metals and unnaturally warm waters already made this a lake that it was unsafe to eat fish from, though when you're poor, food, even contaminated food...is still food. In any case, this oil spill was the final straw.

On the banks of Lake Wabamun lies the Paul Band First Nation, whose beaches received the bulk of the spill. Traditional berry patches, and other food gathering locations have been poisoned. There has been $7.5 million dollars (http://www.trainorders.com/news/story.php?3276) of compensation to the residents whose properties were contaminated but still absolutely NO compensation has been made to Paul Band.

A small stream links Lake Wabamun to the North Saskatchewan River, which runs through Alberta's capital city, Edmonton. It was discovered after this spill, and emergency crews realised that had the winds been higher the day of the spill, there would have been no way of preventing a spread that would have compromised the drinking water of about a million people. To date there is STILL no comprehensive emergency plan to deal with train derailments/spills, despite the fact that many tracks run alongside lakes and rivers.

It bothers me beyond description that my children will be unable to swim in the lake I grew up beside, and that the people who rely most on the lake have received nothing to help offset the costs of the damage.

So, feel free to comment or ask questions on this event, but also bring up any information you might have about emergency plans in your area, spills, whatever.

If one were so inclined, one could arrange to supply the bottled water needs of the company... http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/teufel/devil-smiley-024.gif

If one were so inclined, one could arrange to supply the bottled water needs of the company... http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/teufel/devil-smiley-024.gif

HAHAHAHHAHA...that's so Erin Brockovich!

That sucks: it seems incompetence is not only confined to British railways. Saying that there won't be any long term damage simply isn't good enough, CN rail should 1) not let it happen and 2) if it does, be prepared to do something about it, which includes compensation and cleaning it up.

Frankly, I think CN Rail (and other railway companies) should be footing the bill for the bulk of a regulated emergency plan. Is it really cheaper to keep getting sued for these spills, than have some sort of plan in place to deal with spills? Or hey...how about they actually look at why these spills are happening and do something about it? How novel.

Other spills.

BC derailment, caustic sodium hydroxide spilled, 2005 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070803/wl_canada_nm/canada_cnrail_environment_col)

BC, hydrocholoric acid, 2007 (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/02/28/derailment-spill.html)

Ontario, sulpheric acid, 2007 (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2007/03/31/acid-spill.html)

HAHAHAHHAHA...that's so Erin Brockovich!

Thanks. I think. :p

Once again, the environment plays second fiddle to profit making capabilities of large corporations

If one were so inclined, one could arrange to supply the bottled water needs of the company... http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/teufel/devil-smiley-024.gif
Bottled water is tap water.

Bottled water is tap water.

unless you buy Fiji :D

Bottled water is tap water.

Not always, the biggies tend to be, so don't bother with Aquafina or Dasani, both crap, but there are options that are genuine spring water.

God damn racist bigots. Why can't they pay out to Paul Band? They need the money to compensate for the utter horror story that was this spill.

Ugh. Stupid idiots who can't see beyond their own profit.

God damn racist bigots. Why can't they pay out to Paul Band? They need the money to compensate for the utter horror story that was this spill.

Ugh. Stupid idiots who can't see beyond their own profit.

how are they racist?

I think this pollution is terrible and I would urge the residents of this area of Alberta to complain to their government about the effects of recklessness on the Canadian enviornment. Nothing will happen unless the actual people who live in these areas rise up in arms about the how their lakes are being polluted and the danger any further accidents may have on the Canadian nature, let alone the drinking water of Alberta.

The lake won't have any long term effects? Are they talking over a 100k year span of time? What the hell are they smoking?

As for the Paul Band have they refused payment and going after more? Is there more to that story then being told in the post?

how are they racist?

Err...because they refused/did not acknowledge the destruction and devastation to the Paul Ban hunting/gathering/fishing grounds?

Err...because they refused/did not acknowledge the destruction and devastation to the Paul Ban hunting/gathering/fishing grounds?

right, but how is that racist?


i'm not arguing, just asking, i'm confused :)

right, but how is that racist?


i'm not arguing, just asking, i'm confused :)
They're First Nationers!

...

They're INDIANS! NATIVE AMERICANS! There! Now do you get it? I'd have thought the tribal bit with the whole hunting/gathering/fishing would have made it clear.

They're First Nationers!

...

They're INDIANS! NATIVE AMERICANS! There! Now do you get it? I'd have thought the tribal bit with the whole hunting/gathering/fishing would have made it clear.

but what proof do you have that the corporation is refusing payment because of their race?


could it not be that they don't want to give out money because, well, IT'S MONEY??!! regardless of WHO was asking for it?

correlation is not causation, forgive me for assuming you had any common sense

but what proof do you have that the corporation is refusing payment because of their race?


could it not be that they don't want to give out money because, well, IT'S MONEY??!! regardless of WHO was asking for it?

correlation is not causation, forgive me for assuming you had any common sense

They paid the other residents, though. If they were unilaterally refusing to pay anyone harmed, then you might have a case.

But refusing to pay Paul Bend when they pay the other residents is unforgivable, especially since Paul Bend is affected much, MUCH more heavily.

They paid the other residents, though. If they were unilaterally refusing to pay anyone harmed, then you might have a case.

But refusing to pay Paul Bend when they pay the other residents is unforgivable, especially since Paul Bend is affected much, MUCH more heavily.

so they disenfranchised a particular group for a couple of reasons


A. they paid MOST of the people that would have complained

B. the people that they did pay was a least amount than the indian people, i would at least think since the Paul Bend people were affected the most, as you said

so again, it's really about HOW much money they can get away with NOT having to give away

i dont see your racist conspiracy theory holding much water, well at least not enough to be an ass at me when i asked for a more proper explanation from you

Why don't you try going to Alberta disguised as a First Nationer and see how you're treated?

Canada loves to paint this beautiful image of itself in the public eye of the world, but the fact is they treat their First Nationers worse than we ever treated ours, especially in places like Alberta, as Neesika will no doubt inform you while being hopelessly angry about it.

Why don't you try going to Alberta disguised as a First Nationer and see how you're treated?

Canada loves to paint this beautiful image of itself in the public eye of the world, but the fact is they treat their First Nationers worse than we ever treated ours, especially in places like Alberta, as Neesika will no doubt inform you while being hopelessly angry about it.


okay


but why couldn't you have divulged that before getting all arrogant and rude?


from what you ORIGINALLY posted, the racism card wasn't making sense

okay


but why couldn't you have divulged that before getting all arrogant and rude?


from what you ORIGINALLY posted, the racism card wasn't making sense

...

I'm sorry. I'm used to everyone here being familiar with Neesika's rant on the subject so I made the assumption that you knew about it and were just being bone-headed. My apologies.

...

I'm sorry. I'm used to everyone here being familiar with Neesika's rant on the subject so I made the assumption that you knew about it and were just being bone-headed. My apologies.

no worries, i was just genuinely trying to find out more about the situation, i wasn't questioning you or anything


and i apologize for my post concerning your common sense

...

I'm sorry. I'm used to everyone here being familiar with Neesika's rant on the subject so I made the assumption that you knew about it and were just being bone-headed. My apologies.

You know, it is possible that Neesika is a paranoid dingbat.

Just saying.

You know, it is possible that Neesika is a paranoid dingbat.

Just saying.

Considering she is a minority and minorities tend to be oppressed by majorities, I am willing to take her word on the situation, even if she's...hostile about it.

As for the Paul Band have they refused payment and going after more? Is there more to that story then being told in the post?

CN Rail originally offered quite a bit less money to the residents, but as the extent of the damage became known, and as the Minister of Environment began discussing laying charges, the amount of compensation to the residents suddenly went up. The money, by the way, may sound like a lot...but it is essentially covering the total nosedive in property value in the area. Many residents decided to sell and move away from the lake...the part of their settlement covered the difference between what the property used to be worth and what they could actually sell it for.

CN Rail is 'in negotiations' with Paul Band, but no, they have not made any offers. The fact is...there is no imperative to settle with Paul Band the way there was with the other residents. Not to mention...Paul Band spent a huge amount of their own money getting in a clean-up crew, because a year after the spill, the lake STILL had not been cleaned up. There is talk that eventually there might be a settlement with Paul Band...but this is two years after the fact now. No real pressure anymore, not unless Paul Band takes this to court.

So unless you can offer some other explanation as to why the First Nations on Wabamun lake have not been compensated, whereas non-aboriginals in the area have been (albeit, not well, in my opinion)...then I have to assume a bit of bad faith here.

You know, it is possible that Neesika is a paranoid dingbat.

Just saying.

Have you missed the reams of independent reviews and sources/proof I've provided? Looks like I might have to post them again.

snip...
I would consider it bad faith in this matter too. The native Americans I believe have a far larger claim then the people that were non-native land owners. The reason being this is their ancestral home if I understand correctly. I would think that counts for far more then someone that bought a piece of property some years ago. The Paul Band should have lawyers which I am sure they do and go for the maximum effect here. The damage is generational and should cost a considerable sum of money to the railroad.

You know, it is possible that Neesika is a paranoid dingbat.

Just saying.

Although I do not agree with many stances that Neesika positions herself on NSG. I do not think this is one that is based in paranoia given the evidence presented. Sounds like they do not want to deal with the tribe because of the cost it will incur in doing so.

Damn injuns. Always complaining. They should feel lucky we let them stay there.


I'm not sure how many US and Canadians live near a substantial number of Native Americans, but here in Oklahoma tribal politics are alive and well. The government is still screwing them. The BIA (Bureau of Indian Affairs) is still screwing them. They get paid pennies on the dollar for mineral rights and right of way (for pipelines and such). Private white landowners get ten and twenty times the amount of money for the same things. Don't be fooled into thinking this type crap ended in the last century.

Damn injuns. Always complaining. They should feel lucky we let them stay there.


I'm not sure how many US and Canadians live near a substantial number of Native Americans, but here in Oklahoma tribal politics are alive and well. The government is still screwing them. The BIA (Bureau of Indian Affairs) is still screwing them. They get paid pennies on the dollar for mineral rights and right of way (for pipelines and such). Private white landowners get ten and twenty times the amount of money for the same things. Don't be fooled into thinking this type crap ended in the last century.

Where I live in Washington State the natives are making money hand over fist. They own port land, casinos and run Indian smoke shops where they do not collect local taxes. Each tribal member gets a monthly allotment in the thousands of dollars. Of course all this money is made off the non-natives. So it depends on where the natives are in the US. Not all the US natives are down and out. Seems to reflect on where one lives just as it does with the rest of America.

Although I do not agree with many stances that Neesika positions herself on NSG. I do not think this is one that is based in paranoia given the evidence presented. Sounds like they do not want to deal with the tribe because of the cost it will incur in doing so.

Meh. I tend to think that at least a little bit of the hardships faced by Amerindians are self-imposed.

The native Americans I believe have a far larger claim then the people that were non-native land owners. The reason being this is their ancestral home if I understand correctly.
All property was claimed by force at some point. No one has any greater legitimate claim than any other. All we can operate by is what works.

Meh. I tend to think that at least a little bit of the hardships faced by American indians are self-imposed.

I agree with you on this point 100%. This can be applied to many other groups as well.




All property was claimed by force at some point. No one has any greater legitimate claim than any other. All we can operate by is what works.
Not going to disagree here either in the sense that no one has a greater legitimate claim than any other. That is in an ideal world.

However as a legal reason per treaties I would think that because natives tend to have more rights in the way of fisheries, hunting and gambling as they do in the states the economic damages would be harder. I do not know if the natives in Canada have similar treaties in those regards as do the US natives. On that basis alone I would think they have a bigger claim if in fact their specific treaty or agreement with the federal government permits special rights.

Considering she is a minority and minorities tend to be oppressed by majorities, I am willing to take her word on the situation, even if she's...hostile about it.

Kyronea...this isn't directed at you specifically, but rather to NSG generally.

You'd be hostile too if the official line, to this very day, was 'we want you people gone, we aren't sorry for anything we've done to you, and any difficulties you have, evidence to the contrary notwithstanding, is entirely your fault'.

Seriously. No apology for Residential Schooling...despite paying out survivors. No apology because they meant well. Forget that the explicit purpose of Residential Schools was to literally destroy our culture. No apology for the 60s sweep, where it essentially became a crime to be an aboriginal parent, warranting a massive series of forced removal of aboriginal children and placements in white homes. No apology because, hey, they meant well.

Our Prime Minister recently attempted to have human rights legislation apply on Reserve. Sounds laudable, no? The funny thing is...the current human rights legislation in question does not have any reference to communal rights, only individual rights. More importantly, it prevents discrimination on the basis of race etc. Wow...hmmm...so...essentially that would mean the Indian Act, being inherently based on race, would be challenged under this! Yay! We could get rid of this disgusting, racist legislation! Oh wait...what's that? The Indian Act, as bad as it is, is the ONLY legislated basis for the Reservation system? If we actually had the Indian Act struck down, the Reserves would cease to exist in their communal, and protected form? Hmm, well sorry about that my little Indian friends, but really, it's for the best. We want to protect you from racism after all.

If I'm hostile, it is because our people are constantly under attack, in the news, in the courts, in Parliament. We have been fighting a running battle for survival for 200 years, and things have not improved appreciably in the last 170 of those years.

If people constantly told you to 'get over it', and 'assimilate', you'd probably be a little hostile too. I spent my entire life learning about how savage, inferior and backwards I am. I live in a country where this is the common perception of us....and not just common, but truly, the legislated perception as well. This viewpoint is so absolutely taken for granted as being truth, that it is very difficult to get people to think beyond what they've been taught.

I've been lambasted many times on this forum for being mean, for being too 'hostile' for being too aggressive when it comes to this issue. But please understand. This is not just a pet project, or a shifting political opinion of mine that it amuses me to explore here. THIS IS MY LIFE. The life of my children, the life of my relations, the life of my nation. In real life, I spend incalculable hours trying to undo the damage done by a smear campaign that is two centuries old. I play the diplomat constantly. So when I get a little tired of doing the same here, forgive me. Frankly, I would hope that given the makeup of NSG, that I would not have to debate the same worn-out issues that I do on a daily basis with my fellow Canadians...that by some miracle, people would already be somewhat informed...that I wouldn't have to go back to the beginning and debate things like, 'uh, but like, you guys had no private land ownership, so like, yeah, you know?'

What you may see as hostility, or aggressiveness or whatever...is me being fucking sick of being the only aboriginal voice on NSG. Oh, I'll continue to do it, to speak out, to debate...but it's bloody exhausting sometimes, and I do get sick of covering old territory. And frankly, if you are using me as the 'voice of my people', to judge all our issues upon...then you just aren't trying.

My anger is not directed at any one of you personally. It's directed at a battle I shouldn't even have to be fighting, for basic human rights for my people living in a first world nation. But yes, I get angry, I get absolutely enraged...and exhausted, and depressed, and lost...because I see no end in sight within my lifetime, nor in the lifetime of my children's children, and that is enough to make anyone want to give up. Sometimes the fire in my belly is the only thing that keeps me going. If you feel that I've been belching those flames in your direction...please don't.

Meh. I tend to think that at least a little bit of the hardships faced by Amerindians are self-imposed.
It would be foolish to deny it. Still, 'a little bit' compared to what is not self-imposed? And yet we still do focus a great deal of our energy on those self-imposed issues, even as we fight the pressure from without. It is very difficult, however, to really resolve those 'self-imposed' issues when the wider issues aren't even remotely resolved.

All property was claimed by force at some point. No one has any greater legitimate claim than any other. All we can operate by is what works.Who gets to judge what works? But I digress...this is material for a different thread. I'd like this one to remained somewhat focused on environmental concerns. Compensation will not change the fact that there has been irreparable harm done to the lake and to the shoreline...whatever CN Rail likes to claim. Don't get me wrong...Wabamun lake was in terrible shape as it was. CN Rail is not solely to blame. But frankly, there are few lakes anywhere in the province that are not terribly polluted for various reasons, and that's a little bit scary when you realise how many people rely on this 'fresh' water, for drinking, irrigation, etc.

At what point will we learn that you don't shit where you eat?

*snip*
I know why you're hostile. I understand it. I wish you weren't, but it obviously can't be helped.

I'm glad you took the time to explain this stuff though...most people would, like Neo Undelia, simply dismiss you as a "paranoid dingbat."

I think this pollution is terrible and I would urge the residents of this area of Alberta to complain to their government about the effects of recklessness on the Canadian enviornment. Nothing will happen unless the actual people who live in these areas rise up in arms about the how their lakes are being polluted and the danger any further accidents may have on the Canadian nature, let alone the drinking water of Alberta.

Rise up in arms? Do I need to report you to CSIS for inciting us to seditious activities?

I agree though...too few neighbouring communities joined in when the residents of Wabamun were blocking the railway tracks and calling for some serious help AND changes. It could just as easily happened to one of those communities, and their lack of overt concern is in itself concerning. I think we are too used to just accepting the placating words of our leaders here in Alberta.

I know why you're hostile. I understand it. I wish you weren't, but it obviously can't be helped.

I'm glad you took the time to explain this stuff though...most people would, like Neo Undelia, simply dismiss you as a "paranoid dingbat."

Just because you're paranoid...

You get the drill.

Just because you're paranoid...

You get the drill.

I'm starting to understand a lot more about all you do, though...

And I think I just found my cause in Canadian politics. If/when I get into Canadian politics...I'll be fighting for your rights from the beginning. (I like to imagine myself creating a Human Rights Party but that's probably way too ambitious. I'll have to work from within another party instead.)