NationStates Jolt Archive

I've been thinking about it and asking myself: Just how bad is it, really?

I mean, not only with the recent events in NYC and Minneapolis, but looking at the railroad, too. And what I've seen over the last visits all over the place.

Like this little gem I photographed in 2004.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/Infrastructure.jpg

I mean, honestly, one really has to wonder what's going to cave in or blow up next. I just hope they do a better maintenance job on the nuclear power plants (which has been an issue in Germany as well).

Bad. Really bad.

Decades of underfunding because people think money grows on trees and don't want to pay the taxes necessary to maintain their infrastructure, ridiculous and irrational BANANA/NIMBY attitidues and a government that has passed a network of inconsistent and messed-up laws have all come together to create the deteriorating infrastructure we have today.

http://www.asce.org/reportcard/2005/index.cfm

That should clear it up. However, power infrastructure has improved considerably since the 2003 blackout...hopefully the 35W disaster will produce similar changes.

Bad. Really bad.

Decades of underfunding because people think money grows on trees and don't want to pay the taxes necessary to maintain their infrastructure, ridiculous and irrational BANANA/NIMBY attitidues and a government that has passed a network of inconsistent and messed-up laws have all come together to create the deteriorating infrastructure we have today.

http://www.asce.org/reportcard/2005/index.cfm

That should clear it up. However, power infrastructure has improved considerably since the 2003 blackout...hopefully the 35W disaster will produce similar changes.

I'd also think that the decades of overspending towards the military would have taken its toll on the infrastructure. I mean, when your budget goes towards destroying things, how can you build or repair anything?

Ooh.
That doesn't look good at all.

And I totally forgot about the damns that broke in NO. Also part of the infrastructure.

Man, this really sounds like someone hasn't checked and refilled the oil when the red lamp came on and then wonders why the engine fails and breaks. :(

I'd also think that the decades of overspending towards the military would have taken its toll on the infrastructure. I mean, when your budget goes towards destroying things, how can you build or repair anything?
Don't you need at least some understanding of engineering to destroy things properly?

Maybe that expertise should be put to good use at home ever once in a while, à la "just checking". (Repairing stuff - not blowing it up, that is!)

I'd also think that the decades of overspending towards the military would have taken its toll on the infrastructure. I mean, when your budget goes towards destroying things, how can you build or repair anything?

Jein. Remember, the Army Corps of Engineers and other units build US critical infrastructure, while DARPA and other research institutes developed a lot of the technology used to monitor and relay modern communications. However, our overseas commitments represent billions wasted that could be put to better use at home.

Imagine what the $100 billion spent per year in Iraq could do for our infrastructure...

Imagine what the $100 billion spent per year in Iraq could do for our infrastructure...
Wonders?

Man, this really sounds like someone hasn't checked and refilled the oil when the red lamp came on and then wonders why the engine fails and breaks. :(

IMO, it's more like we kept the car's oil changes and other maintenance at the absolute minimum to keep the car going and are now wondering why everything is breaking down.

Brazil, here we come...

IMO, it's more like we kept the car's oil changes and other maintenance at the absolute minimum to keep the car going and are now wondering why everything is breaking down.
Guess that's what happens when you don't listen to the mechanic - or don't even ask him in the first place?

Guess that's what happens when you don't listen to the mechanic - or don't even ask him in the first place?

Civil engineers in both the public and private sectors have been warning about this stuff for a long time and nobody lifts a finger until the problems go critical like they did in the 2003 blackout. And that was after costing us billions of dollars in economic and social disruption that could have been prevented for a fraction of the cost with better funding.

Civil engineers in both the public and private sectors have been warning about this stuff for a long time and nobody lifts a finger until the problems go critical like they did in the 2003 blackout. And that was after costing us billions of dollars in economic and social disruption that could have been prevented for a fraction of the cost with better funding.
And that is what absolutely amazes me.

Why does it always have to come to something terrible happening before people start listening?

Civil engineers in both the public and private sectors have been warning about this stuff for a long time and nobody lifts a finger until the problems go critical like they did in the 2003 blackout. And that was after costing us billions of dollars in economic and social disruption that could have been prevented for a fraction of the cost with better funding.

Actually, politicians harp on the issue all the time... only they never really do anything about it. In California, at least, infrastructure bonds are really more of a political fundraiser than anything else - little money actually reaches the contractors and instead finds the General coin purse of the state. The money that does reach the hands of contractors is used as a political token for the mayor/governor to "prove" to the city/state that he/she is taking an active interest in promoting the growth of infrastructure, when it really is somewhat of a scam.

Governor Swarzennegar actually passed a bond that had a statement that it couldn't be dumped into the General fund for the state, but the state Assemblymen could just declare a financial emergency and dump it into the general fund anyway.

Imagine what the $100 billion spent per year in Iraq could do for our infrastructure...
What makes you think it wouldn't be wasted on stadiums and low capacity above ground inner-city trains that almost no one rides? Minnesota has wasted over a billion on those already and I'm sure that the legislature will use this recent disaster to hike taxes and then find a way to waste the new revenue on similar pet projects and then some until this great state is wasting twice as much as it is now.

What makes you think it wouldn't be wasted on stadiums and low capacity above ground inner-city trains that almost no one rides? Minnesota has wasted over a billion on those already and I'm sure that the legislature will use this recent disaster to hike taxes and then find a way to waste the new revenue on similar pet projects and then some until this great state is wasting twice as much as it is now.

Yeah, but mass-transit no one uses saves the world from global warming, remember. :D

I'd also think that the decades of overspending towards the military would have taken its toll on the infrastructure. I mean, when your budget goes towards destroying things, how can you build or repair anything?

Nice assumption. :p

When the people who can afford to pay taxes don't pay taxes what can we expect? When the economy was so good that we could not only repair but build those that could afford to pay taxes had a 90% rate over a certain level. Now we can't even repair what was built.

Here's a nother problem. While the government is spending money giving senators, local and state government officials, they should be using that money to build and repare America's infrastructure.

Considering that the USA is roughly the size of Europe and has had relatively few major cotastraphies makes me think everything is in order.

When the people who can afford to pay taxes don't pay taxes what can we expect? When the economy was so good that we could not only repair but build those that could afford to pay taxes had a 90% rate over a certain level. Now we can't even repair what was built.

The number of pronouns you use is astonishing.

Considering that the USA is roughly the size of Europe and has had relatively few major cotastraphies makes me think everything is in order.

I think that's pretty accurate. The number of miles of road and bridges is probably something astronomical.

Wonders?

A Great Monument?

I think that's pretty accurate. The number of miles of road and bridges is probably something astronomical.

But here's the thing: not all of that is used equally, and almost all of the serious damage is concentrated in urban areas which have suffered the worst in terms of revenue and economic decline. A bridge or road in a sparsely populated area with little traffic will last a long time and won't break down easily, whereas a heavily used bridge requires stringent and constant maintenance to work properly.

So, yes, there are a lot of roads and many are in good shape, but it's the ones in critical areas that are in bad shape and which have severe effects.

True story.

You see, my friend's backyard is large because it connected with several other backyards. One of these backyards belonged to an old man named Jack, who fought in Korea, loves hunting, dogs, hunting with dogs, pies, and his wife. Anyway, my friend and I had only about forty five minutes to play, so we played by this row of trees conveniently placed next to a row of power lines. Well, Jack, being an old man, lectured us for half an hour on the dangers of having these trees near these power lines. His lecture was somewhat like, "Now, ya don't want these here trees near these here powerlines 'cause if LIGHTNIN' strikes, an' it hits a tree, then the tree's gonna catch on fire, and a branch is gonna fall on these here power lines, and these here powerlines gonna snap, and the lightning is gonna run through the tree into the power lines, and if you're playin' here next to these here power lines when the lightnin' strikes, you're gonna get ZAPPED" (it was a clear day when we were playing there) "do ya wanna get ZAPPED, Christopher?"
"No," I murmured.
"Right! 'Cause that's FOURTEEN THOUSAND volts of ELECTRICITY that'll run through your body, which is gonna kill ya. Kill ya dead! Ya hear? Now, I should go tell your parents about this."

How we figure Jack is that if he were to be robbed, he would deal with it two ways:
1. Shoot the burglar.
2. Lecture the burglar on the proper way to rob a house, and then shoot him.

In Kansas City, it's awful with how many trees are growing next to powerlines. You see countless trees with half of their branches cut off to prevent them from touching the powerlines, and then half of the other trees next to the powerlines aren't cut at all.

But here's the thing: not all of that is used equally, and almost all of the serious damage is concentrated in urban areas which have suffered the worst in terms of revenue and economic decline. A bridge or road in a sparsely populated area with little traffic will last a long time and won't break down easily, whereas a heavily used bridge requires stringent and constant maintenance to work properly.

So, yes, there are a lot of roads and many are in good shape, but it's the ones in critical areas that are in bad shape and which have severe effects.

I'd think Congress would be aware of this when they budget infrastructure. But either way, it makes enough sense to me that the roads that are more travelled would deteriorate more quickly.

What makes you think it wouldn't be wasted on stadiums and low capacity above ground inner-city trains that almost no one rides? Minnesota has wasted over a billion on those already and I'm sure that the legislature will use this recent disaster to hike taxes and then find a way to waste the new revenue on similar pet projects and then some until this great state is wasting twice as much as it is now.

Right.

And yet people like Neu Leonstein still think that our government is going to be capable of handling Peak Oil? Let's face it: it's a gigantic wasteful mess.

Hell, our road here where I like is also completely and totally eaten away by dirt and erosion and the Park County government still doesn't have the funds to do anything about it, because Colorado state government won't allocate anything worth a damn.

I think that's pretty accurate. The number of miles of road and bridges is probably something astronomical.

Few accidents =/= Everything a-okay

If everyone was really focused on our infrastructure problem there wouldn't be massive traffic, bridge, piping, etc. problems that we are having. State officials claim bond money will be spent on freeways and bridges and our infrastructure, but they take $85 million out of a $100 something million dollar bond, tack on an extra lane to one of the busiest freeways in America, and say that they've done their job. Allthewhile ignoring problems clearly brought to light in Minnesota and in Northridge.

By the by, these "added inspections" aren't worth the money that cities are investing... at least in California. Caltrans, apparently, has pulled all of its resources back from wherever and put them on inspecting our bridges. What a novelty! We're going to pay for inspections, not bridges. Sure, my particular construction company may get an influx of bids for overcrosses and bridges, but nothing will REALLY happen until the city officials get the picture and start spending money on what it was meant for in the first place.

I'd think Congress would be aware of this when they budget infrastructure. But either way, it makes enough sense to me that the roads that are more travelled would deteriorate more quickly.

You're assuming that budgeting is done by a rational system of needs rather than each representative trying to milk the Federal cow for all it's worth for their own district.

You're assuming that budgeting is done by a rational system of needs rather than each representative trying to milk the Federal cow for all it's worth for their own district.

Congress has little to do with this. Sure, their agencies make sure the bridges are in "tip-top" condition, but it's all on the shoulders of the local and state government to put out a bid for the renovation/demo of the bridge. And, if they don't have the money to bond or pay for the issue, it doesn't get resolved. This often happens because they allocate money dedicated to infrastructure to the general fund by declaring a financial emergency.

In South Australia we have power lines called "stobie poles" which are made of concrete and old railway girders. They last for decades and are virtually indestructable.

http://www.seenobjects.org/images/mediumlarge/2004-06-19-stobie-pole.jpg

Congress has little to do with this. Sure, their agencies make sure the bridges are in "tip-top" condition, but it's all on the shoulders of the local and state government to put out a bid for the renovation/demo of the bridge. And, if they don't have the money to bond or pay for the issue, it doesn't get resolved. This often happens because they allocate money dedicated to infrastructure to the general fund by declaring a financial emergency.

I'm aware that it's state and local governments that are on the "action" end of this, but they rely (far too much, in my opinion) on Federal funding to do damn near anything.

I'm aware that it's state and local governments that are on the "action" end of this, but they rely (far too much, in my opinion) on Federal funding to do damn near anything.

If that is true (I don't work for the State or any local City, so I wouldn't know how they've bonded some of the projects they've put out), the only reason why they have used too much federal money is because they aren't using the money dedicated to infrastructure ON infrastructure.

They don't necessarily have to use bond money; they just wind up doing it anyway.

It's so bad the only people who can fix it don't give a shit.

You are on your own kiddies. I'm sure your knowledge of Hazlitt will really help tho'. Or you could bitch about taxes.

True story.

You see, my friend's backyard is large because it connected with several other backyards. One of these backyards belonged to an old man named Jack, who fought in Korea, loves hunting, dogs, hunting with dogs, pies, and his wife. Anyway, my friend and I had only about forty five minutes to play, so we played by this row of trees conveniently placed next to a row of power lines. Well, Jack, being an old man, lectured us for half an hour on the dangers of having these trees near these power lines. His lecture was somewhat like, "Now, ya don't want these here trees near these here powerlines 'cause if LIGHTNIN' strikes, an' it hits a tree, then the tree's gonna catch on fire, and a branch is gonna fall on these here power lines, and these here powerlines gonna snap, and the lightning is gonna run through the tree into the power lines, and if you're playin' here next to these here power lines when the lightnin' strikes, you're gonna get ZAPPED" (it was a clear day when we were playing there) "do ya wanna get ZAPPED, Christopher?"
"No," I murmured.
"Right! 'Cause that's FOURTEEN THOUSAND volts of ELECTRICITY that'll run through your body, which is gonna kill ya. Kill ya dead! Ya hear? Now, I should go tell your parents about this."

How we figure Jack is that if he were to be robbed, he would deal with it two ways:
1. Shoot the burglar.
2. Lecture the burglar on the proper way to rob a house, and then shoot him.

In Kansas City, it's awful with how many trees are growing next to powerlines. You see countless trees with half of their branches cut off to prevent them from touching the powerlines, and then half of the other trees next to the powerlines aren't cut at all.

The powerlines thing (see also the pic in the OP) is something I never understood. All these dozens of jumbled lines crisscrossing the streets and trees and houses.
When I lived in Indiana (small college town, not exactly poor) we had more power outages in a year than I have had back in Germany in some thirty odd years. Many beautiful old trees + many powerlines that run above ground instead of belowground = many power outages.
My roommates, both American, didn't find anything odd about the situation. That was just how it was, just what happened when there was a storm.

I remember asking about that once here on NS and I think the answer was the same that already has been given here: lack of willingness to allocate money for infrastructure.

The powerlines thing (see also the pic in the OP) is something I never understood. All these dozens of jumbled lines crisscrossing the streets and trees and houses.
When I lived in Indiana (small college town, not exactly poor) we had more power outages in a year than I have had back in Germany in some thirty odd years. Many beautiful old trees + many powerlines that run above ground instead of belowground = many power outages.
My roommates, both American, didn't find anything odd about the situation. That was just how it was, just what happened when there was a storm.

I remember asking about that once here on NS and I think the answer was the same that already has been given here: lack of willingness to allocate money for infrastructure.

Underground power is probably *very* expensive, I should think. It's not worth the money to build more 'advanced' kinds of powerlines in tornado country, either. :p Not that Indiana's at the heart of it, but God knows those poles don't last long in large areas of the country.

The powerlines thing (see also the pic in the OP) is something I never understood. All these dozens of jumbled lines crisscrossing the streets and trees and houses.
When I lived in Indiana (small college town, not exactly poor) we had more power outages in a year than I have had back in Germany in some thirty odd years. Many beautiful old trees + many powerlines that run above ground instead of belowground = many power outages.
My roommates, both American, didn't find anything odd about the situation. That was just how it was, just what happened when there was a storm.

I remember asking about that once here on NS and I think the answer was the same that already has been given here: lack of willingness to allocate money for infrastructure.

The power lines are below ground in my neighborhood but the power still goes out pretty much whenever there's a big storm, and sometimes when there isn't. :(

And that is what absolutely amazes me.

Why does it always have to come to something terrible happening before people start listening?

Because when it comes to voting times, the American mindset has become so geared to "taxes=Teh big ebil" that no politician dares suggest actually raising money to pay for such things. They'd never get elected. And with so many states at near-bankruptcy plus a huge federal deficit for most of the past three decades, there just hasn't been room for more spending.

Americans take pride in having such a low marginal tax rate as compared to most of the rest of the developed world. Well, welcome to the consequences...

Because when it comes to voting times, the American mindset has become so geared to "taxes=Teh big ebil" that no politician dares suggest actually raising money to pay for such things. They'd never get elected. And with so many states at near-bankruptcy plus a huge federal deficit for most of the past three decades, there just hasn't been room for more spending.

Americans take pride in having such a low marginal tax rate as compared to most of the rest of the developed world. Well, welcome to the consequences...

And yet, our leaders always have loads of money for flashy new sports complexes, and giving tax breaks to billion-dollar developers. It's not a money problem. It's the fact that fixing old stuff isn't "kewl". My city is glad to spend billions on shiny new stuff while we're driving on roads with potholes like moon craters. Then they ask why we say "no" when they want still more of our tax money. :rolleyes:

True story.

You see, my friend's backyard is large because it connected with several other backyards. One of these backyards belonged to an old man named Jack, who fought in Korea, loves hunting, dogs, hunting with dogs, pies, and his wife. Anyway, my friend and I had only about forty five minutes to play, so we played by this row of trees conveniently placed next to a row of power lines. Well, Jack, being an old man, lectured us for half an hour on the dangers of having these trees near these power lines. His lecture was somewhat like, "Now, ya don't want these here trees near these here powerlines 'cause if LIGHTNIN' strikes, an' it hits a tree, then the tree's gonna catch on fire, and a branch is gonna fall on these here power lines, and these here powerlines gonna snap, and the lightning is gonna run through the tree into the power lines, and if you're playin' here next to these here power lines when the lightnin' strikes, you're gonna get ZAPPED" (it was a clear day when we were playing there) "do ya wanna get ZAPPED, Christopher?"
"No," I murmured.
"Right! 'Cause that's FOURTEEN THOUSAND volts of ELECTRICITY that'll run through your body, which is gonna kill ya. Kill ya dead! Ya hear? Now, I should go tell your parents about this."

How we figure Jack is that if he were to be robbed, he would deal with it two ways:
1. Shoot the burglar.
2. Lecture the burglar on the proper way to rob a house, and then shoot him.

In Kansas City, it's awful with how many trees are growing next to powerlines. You see countless trees with half of their branches cut off to prevent them from touching the powerlines, and then half of the other trees next to the powerlines aren't cut at all.
Huh. And I would've thought that placing above-ground power lines next to trees was a bad idea...
The powerlines thing (see also the pic in the OP) is something I never understood. All these dozens of jumbled lines crisscrossing the streets and trees and houses.
When I lived in Indiana (small college town, not exactly poor) we had more power outages in a year than I have had back in Germany in some thirty odd years. Many beautiful old trees + many powerlines that run above ground instead of belowground = many power outages.
My roommates, both American, didn't find anything odd about the situation. That was just how it was, just what happened when there was a storm.

I remember asking about that once here on NS and I think the answer was the same that already has been given here: lack of willingness to allocate money for infrastructure.
I think, overall, I have experienced a single power-out in Germany. And that was during a huge thunderstorm when lighting struck in the neighborhood and toasted some distributer box.

And I simply had to take that picture shown in the OP. I mean, that's a prime example of things should not be done.

I just don't see why placing power lines underground is such a huge problem. After all, most power lines over here have disappeared underground some 40-50 years ago.

I sometimes can't help but think that the US combines 1st and 3rd world infrastructure, depending on which neighborhood you look at.
Underground power is probably *very* expensive, I should think. It's not worth the money to build more 'advanced' kinds of powerlines in tornado country, either. :p Not that Indiana's at the heart of it, but God knows those poles don't last long in large areas of the country.
And yet continental Europe seems to manage pretty well.
Besides, our power lines don't get knocked out by branches and such and don't cause a hazard when those lines lie around on the ground after a storm.

Sure, our big over-land lines are above-ground and there was a big power-out during the winter before last when the masts gave in under too much ice.
But that is still the exception, not the norm.
The power lines are below ground in my neighborhood but the power still goes out pretty much whenever there's a big storm, and sometimes when there isn't. :(
That's really weird. I've only experienced one power-out over here in 30 years versus half a dozen in just a year over there.
Because when it comes to voting times, the American mindset has become so geared to "taxes=Teh big ebil" that no politician dares suggest actually raising money to pay for such things. They'd never get elected. And with so many states at near-bankruptcy plus a huge federal deficit for most of the past three decades, there just hasn't been room for more spending.
Americans take pride in having such a low marginal tax rate as compared to most of the rest of the developed world. Well, welcome to the consequences...
I honestly don't believe that it's a matter of raising taxes but simply of redistributing them according to actual needs.
And yet, our leaders always have loads of money for flashy new sports complexes, and giving tax breaks to billion-dollar developers. It's not a money problem. It's the fact that fixing old stuff isn't "kewl". My city is glad to spend billions on shiny new stuff while we're driving on roads with potholes like moon craters. Then they ask why we say "no" when they want still more of our tax money. :rolleyes:
That's another thing I have a hard time understanding... that "throw-away-mentality". Sustaining and fixing stuff is way less expensive than rebuilding or building anew. I'd have expected that especially the US would understand, grasp, and welcome that since it actually saves money?

Spending Federal money on infrastructure won't do shit. The states (or cities in an example like Chicago) go ahead and use that money on other uses. Heck Mayor Daley was given a million bucks to spend on Meigs Field (before he tore it down of course) and he went ahead and used the money to keep his buddies employed with patronage jobs.

When Will the Next Bridge Collapse?

By Marc Pitzke in New York

The Minneapolis bridge disaster is no isolated incident but a warning signal: More than 160,000 road bridges in the USA are considered to be in danger of collapse. Highways, tunnels, dams and dykes are in such miserable condition that engineers have long been ringing the alarm -- so far in vain.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,498028,00.html

The article is an interesting, revealing read.

And that is what absolutely amazes me.

Why does it always have to come to something terrible happening before people start listening?

Because we're idiots?