NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/01/education/01education.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=7e911439290e6e93&ex=1186632000&emc=eta1

If people really would like to know why education in the US is in the state it is currently in, this is a good indicator.

Would you want this for YOUR child? A grade that means absolutely nothing, an education that is minimal at best because of the child and parent's decisions, and people entering the workforce without skills and without the basics about deadlines, responsibilities, et cetera?

Apparently a prom dress is more important than having discipline and learning.

So is keeping up the impression that the school has a high graduation rate even the the students are learning nothing. It's about creating the illusion of success.

They're that shallow? :eek:

"Mr. Arocho, the assistant principal, wrote in a letter to Mr. Lampros that Miss Fernandez had a doctor’s note, issued March 15, permitting her to miss school whenever necessary in the spring. Mr. Arocho did not respond to telephone and e-mail messages seeking comment."
well if the note did not excuse her from missing the final exam why can't the school just revoke the passing grade or something like that?

They're that shallow? :eek:

From the article...

From Michigan, Mr. Lampros recalled one comment that Mrs. Fernandez made during their meeting about why it was important for Indira to graduate. She couldn’t afford to pay for her to attend another senior prom in another senior year.

So is keeping up the impression that the school has a high graduation rate even the the students are learning nothing. It's about creating the illusion of success.

Attainment vs. achievement. We've raised attainment, but only at the cost of achievement.


This doesn't surprise me. My towns official policy is that no student can get a grade below a 60. A student once earned a 1 (yes, that is a one), and it was rounded up to a 60.

Public school in this country is nothing but a punchline.

I think If I ever have kids, I'll do what Smunkee said. Just enter them into classes at the local community college as so as humanly possible.

In fact I'm even losing faith in high schools ability to socialize. I think I'll home-school for the grades until high-school and cover their socialization with classes at the community center or martial arts. I don't even want them exposed to the socializing high school now offers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/01/education/01education.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=7e911439290e6e93&ex=1186632000&emc=eta1

If people really would like to know why education in the US is in the state it is currently in, this is a good indicator.

Would you want this for YOUR child? A grade that means absolutely nothing, an education that is minimal at best because of the child and parent's decisions, and people entering the workforce without skills and without the basics about deadlines, responsibilities, et cetera?

Apparently a prom dress is more important than having discipline and learning.

Actually, I wouldn't call this a failure of the NCLB act, but the principal not backing his teachers and the parents having screwed priorities.

Attainment vs. achievement. We've raised attainment, but only at the cost of achievement.


This doesn't surprise me. My towns official policy is that no student can get a grade below a 60. A student once earned a 1 (yes, that is a one), and it was rounded up to a 60.

Ours is 75%, you can't go lower, I helped a friend grade her classes papers a few times, kids getting 25% and lower and I have to put "C" on their paper.

Freaks.

How does this help anyone?

"Mr. Arocho, the assistant principal, wrote in a letter to Mr. Lampros that Miss Fernandez had a doctor’s note, issued March 15, permitting her to miss school whenever necessary in the spring. Mr. Arocho did not respond to telephone and e-mail messages seeking comment."
well if the note did not excuse her from missing the final exam why can't the school just revoke the passing grade or something like that?

from the article:
Mr. Lampros, disgusted, did not come to school the next two days. Miss Fernandez meanwhile took the test and scored a 66, which still left her far short of a 65 average for the semester. Nonetheless, Mr. Arocho tried to enter a passing mark for her. When he had to relent after objections by the teachers’ union representative, Mr. Lampros was allowed to put in the failing grade. Ms. Geiger promptly reversed it.
She took the exam, as per the demands of the admin. Even with her final grade, she failed. Arocho tried to give her a passing mark, but the teachers union stopped him. She failed. The Art and Tech principal then used her authority to change the grade anyway.

The real problem with tying a kid to the rear bumper of your car and driving at 15 miles per hour isn't that he can't keep up for a while, it's that he isn't going to make it to California in one piece.

;)

Ours is 75%, you can't go lower, I helped a friend grade her classes papers a few times, kids getting 25% and lower and I have to put "C" on their paper.

Freaks.

How does this help anyone?

so every student passes? That is inane. Really.

honestly, it paints a very bleak future for me...the one thing that saves me from a senior year crisis and change majors is a) the cost and b) the hope that it isn't as systemic as it seems.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/01/education/01education.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=7e911439290e6e93&ex=1186632000&emc=eta1

If people really would like to know why education in the US is in the state it is currently in, this is a good indicator.

Would you want this for YOUR child? A grade that means absolutely nothing, an education that is minimal at best because of the child and parent's decisions, and people entering the workforce without skills and without the basics about deadlines, responsibilities, et cetera?

Apparently a prom dress is more important than having discipline and learning.

It's a good thing this represents all schools in the USA. :rolleyes:

so every student passes? That is inane. Really.
the only way to fail is if you are truant.

honestly, it paints a very bleak future for me...the one thing that saves me from a senior year crisis and change majors is a) the cost and b) the hope that it isn't as systemic as it seems.
maybe you can fix it......or start your own charter school and save a few kids.

It's a good thing this represents all schools in the USA. :rolleyes:

It's a goood thing YOU don't represent all schools in the USA. :p

It's a good thing this represents all schools in the USA. :rolleyes:
You'd be surprised.
the only way to fail is if you are truant. that's a little depressing


maybe you can fix it......or start your own charter school and save a few kids.With any luck, yes. I'm hoping that I will be able to without being too naive or idealistic...

It's a goood thing YOU don't represent all schools in the USA. :p
ohhh....sick burn.:)

Eh, this comes as no surprise. Everything else is more or less smoke and mirrors, so why not at one more delusion to the mix?

What's sad is how this will probably be brushed under the rug and ignored, only savoring the benefits of a false education. I can't wait to see how this turns against them. :D

Actually, I wouldn't call this a failure of the NCLB act, but the principal not backing his teachers and the parents having screwed priorities.

As much as I would LOVE to attack another yet again failed initiative of the Bush administration, I must agree


I don't think this really has anything to do with NCLB as much as it has to do with Michigan State's Board of Education

Remember now, public education in the United States is controlled and maintained by the individual states, not by the federal government


HOWEVER, the feds dangle money in the air in front of the states and say "you see this? if you want this, do what we say with education"

ohhh....sick burn.:)

It gave me no pleasure.

...

<_<

>_>


:D

It gave me no pleasure.

...

<_<

>_>


:D



don't lie...... :p

So is keeping up the impression that the school has a high graduation rate even the the students are learning nothing. It's about creating the illusion of success.

I'm in complete agreement with you. Unfortunately, it's top-down. The parents yell at people "in charge" of education (who are rarely educators), those people threaten teachers/schools who don't pass masses of kids whether they should pass or not, saying they are holding us 'accountable' even in cases as ridiculous as this, those of us who stand firm about student accountability have to defend ourselves constantly even when clearly, mathematics show that the child cannot pass because they were not there often enough, did not do the assigned work, et cetera.... and then teachers are blamed that there are inflated graduation rates and meaningless diplomas.

It's a good thing this represents all schools in the USA. :rolleyes:
When the basis for federal funding(read EVERY STATE'S FUNDS) is how many children pass arbitrary tests and hurdles, you can be assured every state in the nation has this going on to some degree.

As much as I would LOVE to attack another yet again failed initiative of the Bush administration, I must agree


I don't think this really has anything to do with NCLB as much as it has to do with Michigan State's Board of EducationNew York. Not Michigan.

Remember now, public education in the United States is controlled and maintained by the individual states, not by the federal government

HOWEVER, the feds dangle money in the air in front of the states and say "you see this? if you want this, do what we say with education"
Yes, it is organized by the individual states. Howeve,r NCLB requires something called AYP, or adequite yearly progress. Part of this is graduation rates, which is something that was cited in the article as something that contributed to this issue. If they don't meet AYP 3 years in a row, there are significant and increasing consequences including contracting outside help like Sylvan, restaffing, or closing of the school.

you're saying the feds can shut a school down?
With the NCLB, pretty much.

"Mr. Arocho, the assistant principal, wrote in a letter to Mr. Lampros that Miss Fernandez had a doctor’s note, issued March 15, permitting her to miss school whenever necessary in the spring. Mr. Arocho did not respond to telephone and e-mail messages seeking comment."
well if the note did not excuse her from missing the final exam why can't the school just revoke the passing grade or something like that?

Because that would make it look like 'not enough kids are passing.'

So, they pass kids who don't deserve it, over the protests of their teachers -- or intimidate new teachers (or ones near retirement) into passing masses of kids by holding out the threat of either not renewing one's contract (outside of the city of NY) or "not having a position available" come next year.

To be honest, I want more teachers to have the integrity to say, "No. Your child did 33% of the work. 33% of 100 is.... 33." And I want administrators to check the math and say to the parent, "That's the grading policy. Our teacher followed it. Your child failed the minimum requirements of the course."

Yes, it is organized by the individual states. Howeve,r NCLB requires something called AYP, or adequite yearly progress. Part of this is graduation rates, which is something that was cited in the article as something that contributed to this issue. If they don't meet AYP 3 years in a row, there are significant and increasing consequences including contracting outside help like Sylvan, restaffing, or closing of the school.

you're saying the feds can shut a school down?

sorry about the Michigan/New York confusion, I was reading something else for work concerning Michigan and my subconscience struck again : )

Yes, it is organized by the individual states. Howeve,r NCLB requires something called AYP, or adequite yearly progress. Part of this is graduation rates, which is something that was cited in the article as something that contributed to this issue. If they don't meet AYP 3 years in a row, there are significant and increasing consequences including contracting outside help like Sylvan, restaffing, or closing of the school.
all of which is supposed to increase the quality of the education. however, if the individual schools try to 'protect' their teachers by lowering the quality of the education, how is that NCLB's fault.

I would lay the blame on the school or the state education system for that.

allowing a student to pass because her mother can't afford another senior prom is not even close to what NCLB is supposed to do.

I think people take the name of the act too literally.

you're saying the feds can shut a school down?

sorry about the Michigan/New York confusion, I was reading something else for work concerning Michigan and my subconscience struck again : )

I have my notes on NCLB somewhere...let me grab them...


Consequences for Failing to make AYP as outlined by NCLB
Year 1: None
Year 2: None
Year 3: Students are given choice, teachers given professional development
Year 4: Students are given choice and tutoring using supplimental educational services (eg: Sylvan), teachers are given professional development
Year 5: Choice, tutoring, professional development, schools must outline improvement plan
Year 6: Corrective action including change of staff
Year 7: School can be closed, converted to charter school status

Nice. Did I say it represents ALL, or that it is a GOOD INDICATOR.

You fail at reading comprehension.

maybe he technically failed but they passed him anyway. :eek::cool:

So, if schools aren't doing well, they don't get funding? Ins't that the wrong way around, I mean, surely the schools that can't get many kids to graduate need more money than the ones that are churning out graduates as though they were being mass produced?

I have my notes on NCLB somewhere...let me grab them...

i'm just curious, i don't know much about the NCLB to be truthful


i'm afraid i'm a bit lacking in this particular area of knowledge when it comes to the relationship of education concerning the states and federal government


i just know the basics, lol

all of which is supposed to increase the quality of the education. however, if the individual schools try to 'protect' their teachers by lowering the quality of the education, how is that NCLB's fault.

I would lay the blame on the school or the state education system for that.

allowing a student to pass because her mother can't afford another senior prom is not even close to what NCLB is supposed to do.

I think people take the name of the act too literally.
You don't have to take the name of the act literally, you just have to recognize what it does: threaten schools with less funding and other threats if they don't jump through arbitrary federal education hurdles, such as not graduating x amount of students or not having y percent of students ranking z on some arbitrary tests.


And holy time warps batman, I have no idea what is going on.

So, if schools aren't doing well, they don't get funding? Ins't that the wrong way around, I mean, surely the schools that can't get many kids to graduate need more money than the ones that are churning out graduates as though they were being mass produced?

HEAR HEAR!!!!!


it's just yet again, another example of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer......

Actually, I wouldn't call this a failure of the NCLB act, but the principal not backing his teachers and the parents having screwed priorities.

It is precisely a failure of that act. Federal funding is removed from the schools because of lack of achievement. Schools are broken up and then remade without the protections of a union contract, and admins and teachers are left scrambling for new jobs, regardless of the actual teaching that is or isn;t going on. Therefore, admin want passing grades no matter what.

Do you think students don't realize this? They know people's jobs are on the line, so they do the same things Ms. Fernandez did, knowing that complaining to the admin will often get a failing grade overturned.

In my school, it's different... my admin will take out his calculator in front of the parent and (99% of the time) say, "Ms. Z gave your child a grade of 55. According to our policy of essays, tests and major projects being worth 66% of the grade, quizzes, homework and participation being 33% of the grade.... your child earned a 35. We'll be sure to correct the grade immediately."

Ours is 75%, you can't go lower, I helped a friend grade her classes papers a few times, kids getting 25% and lower and I have to put "C" on their paper.

Freaks.

How does this help anyone?

It doesn't. That's my point.

It's a good thing this represents all schools in the USA. :rolleyes:

Nice. Did I say it represents ALL, or that it is a GOOD INDICATOR.

You fail at reading comprehension.

It is precisely a failure of that act. Federal funding is removed from the schools because of lack of achievement. Schools are broken up and then remade without the protections of a union contract, and admins and teachers are left scrambling for new jobs, regardless of the actual teaching that is or isn;t going on. Therefore, admin want passing grades no matter what.and when the school admin takes shortcuts and perverts the act to save their skins, it's the Act's fault? Not saying the act is perfect, but the act doesn't force these admins to make the choices they made.

Do you think students don't realize this? They know people's jobs are on the line, so they do the same things Ms. Fernandez did, knowing that complaining to the admin will often get a failing grade overturned. and where does it say on the NCLB act that the principal HAS to overturn a failure. (oh wait... he wants funding.... on an act that isn't properly funded in the first place.)

I never said NCLB is perfect or near perfect or even doing what it's supposed to be doing. But a principal (or any school offical) caving for such reasons can't be blamed on NCLB. Infact, what SHOULD be happening is that when instances of this arise, an audit and evaluation should be performed and if found that they are passing those that failed (especially for funding) the school officials should be arrested for FRAUD. Falsifying results to gain funding.

So, if schools aren't doing well, they don't get funding? Ins't that the wrong way around, I mean, surely the schools that can't get many kids to graduate need more money than the ones that are churning out graduates as though they were being mass produced?
If you think this is dumb, you should see the chart about who gets more prebate money under the FairTax deal based on poverty line calculations.

So, if schools aren't doing well, they don't get funding? Ins't that the wrong way around, I mean, surely the schools that can't get many kids to graduate need more money than the ones that are churning out graduates as though they were being mass produced?

It makes about as much sense to me, too.

sorry about the Michigan/New York confusion, I was reading something else for work concerning Michigan and my subconscience struck again : )it does mention Michigan in the article as the teachers home state as well

all of which is supposed to increase the quality of the education. however, if the individual schools try to 'protect' their teachers by lowering the quality of the education, how is that NCLB's fault.Because, for all the good NCLB tries to do, it fails to have the proper checks and balances that protect against this kind of thing. Yes, it is present in some areas of the law (states must report NAEP scores to check state test standards), but it is amazingly absent in AYP. What is AYP? Whatever the school defines it as. How do schools reach it? However they want.

I would lay the blame on the school or the state education system for that.I wouldn't. Mind you, I think NCLB is an "okay" law that needs alot of reworking (it is also hardly a new law...it just has a snappy new name over Title 1 categorical funding). NCLB has been with us since 1965.

allowing a student to pass because her mother can't afford another senior prom is not even close to what NCLB is supposed to do.I believe that is not the primary reason she was passed. I think it has much more to do with this:
They also describe a principal worried that the 2006 graduation rate of 72.5 percent would fall closer to 50 or 60 percent unless teachers came up with ways to pass more students.
than this:
She couldn’t afford to pay for her to attend another senior prom in another senior year.
That is the schools desire for her to graduate vs. the mothers. The school did the act, so I would say their reasoning was the one used.
I think people take the name of the act too literally.
I know the act quite well.

edit: jolt is being wicked screwy.

It doesn't. That's my point.
The really sad part (I think) is that I can't go talk to these kids and their parents. It's going to hit them hard one day when they are out of school and they have no basic understanding of things like math and reading, and they say "but I did well in school, I was an average student" there is no way to tell them they aren't doing well, and there isn't much motivation for my friend to help them other than to teach them how to pass the test well enough so she can keep her job. I can teach my 4 year old to pass the GED if it means that I can eat, but seriously she won't understand most of it......she will memorize long enough to shade bubbles and then forget it. That's what's happening to the kids here. :(

So, if schools aren't doing well, they don't get funding? Ins't that the wrong way around, I mean, surely the schools that can't get many kids to graduate need more money than the ones that are churning out graduates as though they were being mass produced?

Other way around is that schools that succeed lose money and those who do nothing get more money.

The real problem with tying a kid to the rear bumper of your car and driving at 15 miles per hour isn't that he can't keep up for a while, it's that he isn't going to make it to California in one piece.

;)

I think LG really hits the nail on the head here. We can't be leaving children behind even if there's no room in the car, but policies like this just don't help long-term survivability.

Wait....

:D

And in other news (on topic), yes I agree, the policy pursued by the government and states is ludicrous. As Ifreann says, extra money should be allotted to schools which are having problems, not taken away.

So, if schools aren't doing well, they don't get funding? Ins't that the wrong way around, I mean, surely the schools that can't get many kids to graduate need more money than the ones that are churning out graduates as though they were being mass produced?

And of course the schools with more money already have students with a higher average income to start (especially private schools). It almost is as if the party of unregulated business is trying to discourage people from using public education. That can't be true!

Who needs to know math? I understand the cash registers all have pictures on them at the fast food restaurants.

I know the act quite well.

edit: jolt is being wicked screwy.I meant non NSG people. :p

and yeah, I was confused there to... then you edited. :D

yes, the act needs ALOT of work. Yes, it's lacking in alot of checks and balances that allow people to take advantage of it at the student's expense.

however, I still feel that in this case, it's the pricipal's fault and not the act.

after all, that's like saying it's the banks fault that it got robbed and there is no responsiblity on the robber.

Other way around is that schools that succeed lose money and those who do nothing get more money.

or worse... Schools that do poorly become Federally Funded Institutions. :eek:

and a Federal Committee is created to evaluate and inspect schools to see which will become under the complete control of the Federal Government... :eek:

Who needs to know math? I understand the cash registers all have pictures on them at the fast food restaurants.

... careful. I once ordered a twenty peice Chicken Nuggets from Micky D's... the cashier stared blankly at her register for a while. then I whispered "that's two 10-peice Nuggets" the look of relief on her face was a classic.

Who needs to know math? I understand the cash registers all have pictures on them at the fast food restaurants.

Duh, you have to know how many times to press them.

Other way around is that schools that succeed lose money and those who do nothing get more money.
Or rather those that are failing get more money. Though a large decider in failure or success really is funding - funding to hire and keep good, and enough, teachers, funding for enough books and supplies, etc.

you can't think of other reasons you might want to know math?:headbang:
I barely know math and I have to have a minor in it.


This thread reminds me of that Futurama episode where they messed with the chronotons and "tore the time stream a new one."

you can't think of other reasons you might want to know math?:headbang:

He was being sarcastic... I think :confused:

This thread is hurting my brain. Almost as much as that piece of Bach in D sharp minor I played earlier....

i'm just curious, i don't know much about the NCLB to be truthful


i'm afraid i'm a bit lacking in this particular area of knowledge when it comes to the relationship of education concerning the states and federal government


i just know the basics, lol
Don't worry. many people, including those in education, do not really understand the law. I'll give a quick run down.

Funding today comes from 3 areas: local, state, and federal. Technically, the federal government has no power over education. To skirt this, they created categorical funding with title 1: if schools want money, they have to do a, b, and c. This slowly evolved into NCLB. The feds require that schools give yearly tests, establish AYP, etc. this makes them eligible for funding. If they do these things and are successful, they get the money, no restrictions. If they do those things and aren't successful, the feds get to direct where the money goes.
So, if schools aren't doing well, they don't get funding? Ins't that the wrong way around, I mean, surely the schools that can't get many kids to graduate need more money than the ones that are churning out graduates as though they were being mass produced?

HEAR HEAR!!!!!


it's just yet again, another example of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer......
Schools never lose funding. Ever. If they fail to meet AYP, the federal government can direct where their money goes. they only lose funding if they fail to meet requirements of the bill (yearly testing, highly qualified teachers, etc)

Who needs to know math? I understand the cash registers all have pictures on them at the fast food restaurants.

you can't think of other reasons you might want to know math?:headbang:

... careful. I once ordered a twenty peice Chicken Nuggets from Micky D's... the cashier stared blankly at her register for a while. then I whispered "that's two 10-peice Nuggets" the look of relief on her face was a classic.

That's not fair! Poor girl, looking for a 20 Piece Nugget button when there is none.

I meant non NSG people. :pI know, but even I have to be a bastard every now and then ;)

and yeah, I was confused there to... then you edited. :DI thought you were arguing against yourself for a second

yes, the act needs ALOT of work. Yes, it's lacking in alot of checks and balances that allow people to take advantage of it at the student's expense.There also needs to be lots of education of the puplic. The most pervasive issue is the idea that funding is taken away, rather than directed.

however, I still feel that in this case, it's the pricipal's fault and not the act.Bit of both. Dishonesty on his part, inability to catch it and prevent it on the laws part.

after all, that's like saying it's the banks fault that it got robbed and there is no responsiblity on the robber.Well, if the bank had no security and left the vault open...

I think a lot of people have been skirting the REAL issue behing the failed education in American, and the article touched upon it yet no one has said anything about it.

Throwing money at schools is not necessarily going to fix anything

sure, it'll prep the school by giving it the necessary TOOLS needed for educational success, but what really matters is


get this


THE STUDENTS

many of them have mixed priorities, and find engaging in after school social activities more rewarding than studying for their major test, or even so much as doing their homework

and then the parents are at fault because they ALLOW their children to abandon their homework

and then when BAM, it all comes and bites the kids in the ass, they go running to their parents, and of course, instead of the parents saying "gee maybe we should have been making you STUDY for school instead of hanging out at starbucks", they BLAME THE TEACHER

because if the student didn't read their book at home like they were instructed to because their parents didn't reinforce the priority of a proper education, than it MUST be the teacher's fault!

and because it's the teacher's fault, we can blame the ENTIRE public education system

and if we can do that, then the federal government has an excuse to come in and control even more of the state's sovereign activities


whew

I think a lot of people have been skirting the REAL issue behing the failed education in American, and the article touched upon it yet no one has said anything about it.

Throwing money at schools is not necessarily going to fix anything

sure, it'll prep the school by giving it the necessary TOOLS needed for educational success, but what really matters isNo, funding is not the only issue at play. It is, however, a major part of the puzzle.


get this


THE STUDENTS

many of them have mixed priorities, and find engaging in after school social activities more rewarding than studying for their major test, or even so much as doing their homework

and then the parents are at fault because they ALLOW their children to abandon their homework

and then when BAM, it all comes and bites the kids in the ass, they go running to their parents, and of course, instead of the parents saying "gee maybe we should have been making you STUDY for school instead of hanging out at starbucks", they BLAME THE TEACHER

because if the student didn't read their book at home like they were instructed to because their parents didn't reinforce the priority of a proper education, than it MUST be the teacher's fault!

and because it's the teacher's fault, we can blame the ENTIRE public education system
Yes. Schools mirror society, not the other way around
and if we can do that, then the federal government has an excuse to come in and control even more of the state's sovereign activities
Wrong. NCLB is a fancy name for Title 1 Categorical funding. Title 1 arose in 1965 as part of the war on poverty to promote equal access to and quality of education.
It was expanded to fund all schools rather than just "poor" schools, and later modified to aide low-performing schools.

Wrong. NCLB is a fancy name for Title 1 Categorical funding.

No, it's not.

It is a revision of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965, which is, in fact, Title 1 Categorical Funding.
Is that the "Title I Categorical Funding" act? Because these things have separate parts to them. And the NCLBA is also an extension of the ESEA that adds all the parts that people currently have a problem with.

No, it's not.

It is a revision of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965, which is, in fact, Title 1 Categorical Funding.

Poor Mr. Lampros

It's a good thing this represents all schools in the USA. :rolleyes:


Well,indeed it does represent the majority of public schools in the US. Take for example my old highschool. Recently the state told them that it would help pay for the bill to build a new school, but of course the citizens would have to pay the rest via a slight tax increase. Well, tax increase makes people think crazy things. They unanimously turned down the proposal, and the state said it will not be able to help any time in the future, because it gave the aid to another school district nearby. So, even our most advanced classrooms are still 30 years behind. There is a growing special education need, but no classes. Some buildings, such as the english/ foreign language building don't even have air conditioning, which let me tell you, when its 105 outside, you cannot concentrate on learning spanish. That's first hand experience. Other things are that people are going to do vocational skills, very easy one mind you, such as car maintenance, while the chemistry lab is near empty, or the math department is suffering. What does that say about the state of the school? It says this, the community is unwilling to provide adequate information, and kids are left with either learning with materials from 1970s, or going to do an easy vocational class. Its ironic to note that the majority of the students in the Junior High class, which are now going to be freshmen, are below poverty line, and they get to look across the street, and see the newly built multi million dollar prison, and think about how they are going to get there. Its inevitable to be frank. We are not providing the kids with the materials they need to be successful, so they will be in poverty, and resort to crime and end up in the nice prison that people were oh so eager to build.

It still blows my mind how they'd rather have a new jail, which currently is not used except for a few inmates, honestly just a few, instead of a new school that could help the kids and eventually the town out.

Is that the "Title I Categorical Funding" act? Because these things have separate parts to them. And the NCLBA is also an extension of the ESEA that adds all the parts that people currently have a problem with.

ESEA includes title 1, and revises the requirements for title 1. I largely use them somewhat interchangably, as NCLB uses title 1 funds, and is a revision of ESEA. There's little or no reason to make the distinction unless someone is going to nitpick.

People also generally don't really understand what they're complaining about within the law, let alone what the law actually even requires.

ESEA includes title 1, and revises the requirements for title 1. I largely use them somewhat interchangably, as NCLB uses title 1 funds, and is a revision of ESEA. There's little or no reason to make the distinction unless someone is going to nitpick.
The very topic of this thread is the reason to make the distinction. Refusing to make the distinction and stubbornly arguing about it is absurd.

People also generally don't really understand what they're complaining about within the law, let alone what the law actually even requires.
Yeah, the people in this thread have no idea what it says :rolleyes:

Who needs to know math? I understand the cash registers all have pictures on them at the fast food restaurants.

Pft, my restaurant doesn't have those pretty pictures. Hell, I actually still have to count the change myself, instead of a machine to do it for me! Its not fair I tell you:p


Actually, many of our older guests that come in are surprised that I can give them correct change with out having any help from the screen or anything else. One fellow told me that he didn't think anyone under 30 knew how to give back change without help. But that again shows the struggle of our education system. While our military is the most over funded one in the world, our education system is stuck in the 1970s, at best.

The very topic of this thread is the reason to make the distinction. Refusing to make the distinction and stubbornly arguing about it is absurd.This thread is not about making a distinction between title 1 and NCLB/ESEA as title 1 is A PART OF NCLB. This thread is about the issues that are being created by NCLB (which includes title 1).


Yeah, the people in this thread have no idea what it says :rolleyes:

Please, quote me the part where I said anything at all about anyone in this thread not knowing NCLB?

Pft, my restaurant doesn't have those pretty pictures. Hell, I actually still have to count the change myself, instead of a machine to do it for me! Its not fair I tell you:p


Actually, many of our older guests that come in are surprised that I can give them correct change with out having any help from the screen or anything else. One fellow told me that he didn't think anyone under 30 knew how to give back change without help. But that again shows the struggle of our education system. While our military is the most over funded one in the world, our education system is stuck in the 1970s, at best.

:D if I could just get someone who didn't look at me stupid when I pay.

for example

"your total is $2.29"
*hands them a $5 bill and 4 pennies*

they don't get it, seriously, they are like :confused:

it's not hard people, count, COUNT DAMN YOU!

sorry

[/rant]

:D if I could just get someone who didn't look at me stupid when I pay.

for example

"your total is $2.29"
*hands them a $5 bill and 4 pennies*

they don't get it, seriously, they are like :confused:

it's not hard people, count, COUNT DAMN YOU!

sorry

[/rant]

I've actually been to a McDonald's where they cashier went to go get the manager, because they said i was trying to rip them off. Like, it was around $6 i think, and i gave them 11, so i can get a 5 back, and she kept handing me the one back saying she didn't need it. I was like, i give you the one extra, and instead of me getting $4 back, you give me $5. Luckily the manager wasn't as clueless.

I've actually been to a McDonald's where they cashier went to go get the manager, because they said i was trying to rip them off. Like, it was around $6 i think, and i gave them 11, so i can get a 5 back, and she kept handing me the one back saying she didn't need it. I was like, i give you the one extra, and instead of me getting $4 back, you give me $5. Luckily the manager wasn't as clueless.

Thank you. I knew you would catch me. I do that too, and they are like "no, you get $4 back, and that dollar that I gave you back" and I am like "but I want a $5" and they are like "but you don't get $5 you get $4" and I am like "but I want $5 that's why I gave you the extra $1, so I can have a $5" and they are like :confused: still.

Ah. North American anti-intellectualism becomes systemic. How shocking.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/01/education/01education.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=7e911439290e6e93&ex=1186632000&emc=eta1

If people really would like to know why education in the US is in the state it is currently in, this is a good indicator.

Would you want this for YOUR child? A grade that means absolutely nothing, an education that is minimal at best because of the child and parent's decisions, and people entering the workforce without skills and without the basics about deadlines, responsibilities, et cetera?

Apparently a prom dress is more important than having discipline and learning.

It wasn't any better before "No Child Left Behind".

Education is in the toilet not because of schools, but because some parents don't give a shit about their own children.

:D if I could just get someone who didn't look at me stupid when I pay.

"your total is $2.29"
*hands them a $5 bill and 4 pennies*

they don't get it, seriously, they are like :confused:
[/rant]

While completely unpatriotic, I'm often very glad I live in this my country, Germany. Here, I actually get asked by impatient cashiers whether I don't perchance have [insert needed number] cents to make a round change when I don't automatically do so on my own. Which, occasionally, makes me feel stupid on my slow days, but I often rather have someone make me feel stupid than wandering around every day ranting on about how stupid everyone else is, I guess.

No, it's not.
Yes and E!=mc^2.:rolleyes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/01/education/01education.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=7e911439290e6e93&ex=1186632000&emc=eta1

If people really would like to know why education in the US is in the state it is currently in, this is a good indicator.

Would you want this for YOUR child? A grade that means absolutely nothing, an education that is minimal at best because of the child and parent's decisions, and people entering the workforce without skills and without the basics about deadlines, responsibilities, et cetera?

Apparently a prom dress is more important than having discipline and learning.

Damn, I was about to pull a DCD on the Fernandezes. I hope that girl is gonna grow up and be so dumb even the other stupid people will scorn her.

Thank God my son is going to be going to parochial school this year and not the public school system. When I was in school this type of shit didn't happen...if you failed you failed. Simple as that.

Redwulf worked as a Special Ed Parapro in Denver for years, and he's always said he wouldn't want to be a teacher. The paperwork, the lack of support from administrators, and worst of all, the PARENTS! The parents who want their sub verbal sixteen year old to take advanced math and chem classes because 'he's going to be doctor someday.' The parents who insist on mainstreaming their child who can't sit still for five minutes and swears like a sailor. I understand that the parent of a special needs child has to fight to get them the best possible education, but at some point you have to accept reality.

but at some point you have to accept reality.

I'd like to think that when (or if) I become a parent I wouldn't give up fighting for my kid

This is absolutely horrible, the mom said that the teacher needs to grow up and her daughter earned what she got.

BULLSHIT!

Not that this isn't normal since NCLB started. After this went into effect, teachers in Chicago schools got caught changing answers on their students achievement tests as well as bumping their failing students up to D's. The principals, of course, were involved. The schools would get its funding cut if it didn't achieve certain standards, and the schools are already broke as it is.

:headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang:

Apparently, Bush is a kool-aid drinker. I am a libertarian, but there are times when a more market-oriented system is just completely retarded.

I'd like to think that when (or if) I become a parent I wouldn't give up fighting for my kid

But SpecEd is something different. If your child is severely disabled and cannot read, write or even speak by the time they're in high school, the odds of them getting into med school are slim to none. Fight for the best education your child can get, but for god sake, don't burden them with expectations they'll never be able to meet. I've run into so many cases like these, where parents refuse to see what's in front of their faces, and in the long run, trying to meet their parents goals hurts the kids, the teachers, and their paras.

But SpecEd is something different. If your child is severely disabled and cannot read, write or even speak by the time they're in high school, the odds of them getting into med school are slim to none. Fight for the best education your child can get, but for god sake, don't burden them with expectations they'll never be able to meet. I've run into so many cases like these, where parents refuse to see what's in front of their faces, and in the long run, trying to meet their parents goals hurts the kids, the teachers, and their paras.

Fighting for them doesn't automatically mean I would be pushing my hopes and dreams on to them. If they had an interest in something and really wanted to achieve it i'd throw my weight behind it completely

Apparently a prom dress is more important than having discipline and learning.


I noticed a lack of discipline and learning as a high school student myself, however, I noted that the problem was with administration and teachers at least as much as it was with parents and students. I had arrived at this conclusion in junior high school, and I pretty much sat around and did nothing in high school, graduating by the skin of my teeth with a grade which I'm convinced I didn't actually earn.

Once liberated from the staatssicherheit gulag that is public K-12 I spent 4 years at a community college to make up for all that wasted time and have now spent two years at a public university listed in the top 50 in U.S. News and World Report's rankings (http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1natudoc_brief.php) (and am now expecting to be admitted to an honors program in my major as well). I kept hearing how academic performance in high school is everything and even looking at a community college means you'll be flipping hamburgers for the rest of your life. I suppose I took that nonsense as a challenge. :D

Anyway, not all of us who have taken advantage of social promotion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_promotion) (which has existed well before No Child Left Behind) have done so because of excessive concern for prom dresses (the only thing stupider than public k-12 education is public k-12 social events...). Some of us took advantage of social promotion because of a desire for discipline and learning; we were simply waiting for our discharge orders so that we could finally start pursuing an education.

As far as I can tell, once one gets past the mandatory 13 year sentence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_education), public (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_college) education (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_university) in the United States is actually pretty damn good.

As far as I can tell, once one gets past the mandatory 13 year sentence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_education), public (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_college) education (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_university) in the United States is actually pretty damn good.

That's pretty true about college education in the US. There is a reason that 1/4 of the people on my res hall during my freshman year weren't from the US.

Oh and the US News rankings suck. I don't trust them giving my school a ranking of 64th when they say it's an urban school. Have they ever been to West Lafayette? I'm surrounded by farms. They should go there in spring just to smell the fertilizer.

God I love having a Grammar school education. Not only has it equipped me to ensure my children can go to private school, and thus avoid the general turd that is state education in the UK, which appears to be much the same as that of the US, but I've avoided it too.:)

Well, you can rest easily knowing that tool will go nowheres in life, which should make you happy being that you are both an educator and a christian.

Fighting for them doesn't automatically mean I would be pushing my hopes and dreams on to them. If they had an interest in something and really wanted to achieve it i'd throw my weight behind it completely

Okay, I'll grant that. What I keep seeing, though, are parents determined that their kids disability won't get in the way of what the parents have in mind for the kid, rather than fighting for the best education and the best opportunities for the kid to use the skills they've got.

Ah. North American anti-intellectualism becomes systemic. How shocking.

Didn't I tell you to play nice? Go away until you learn how to speak in adult company instead of acting like a spoiled child.

Punishing a school for not getting enough properly educated students graduated by cutting off funds that help towards getting said students properly educated and graduated.

You know, if trying to get the Palestinians to crack down on the jihadis by cutting off essential money and grounding them to that giant reservation isn't working one bit, why would a similar approach to American education be any better?

and when the school admin takes shortcuts and perverts the act to save their skins, it's the Act's fault? Not saying the act is perfect, but the act doesn't force these admins to make the choices they made.

and where does it say on the NCLB act that the principal HAS to overturn a failure. (oh wait... he wants funding.... on an act that isn't properly funded in the first place.)

I never said NCLB is perfect or near perfect or even doing what it's supposed to be doing. But a principal (or any school offical) caving for such reasons can't be blamed on NCLB. Infact, what SHOULD be happening is that when instances of this arise, an audit and evaluation should be performed and if found that they are passing those that failed (especially for funding) the school officials should be arrested for FRAUD. Falsifying results to gain funding.

It doesn't say one has to. But you look at all the reports of principals and vice principals of failing schools being caught coaching kids during state-wide tests, falsifying the results of tests, etc. and getting caught for it, and tell me it's NOT caused by this. And they do get caught by audits and evaluations, and they do lose their jobs, and yet every year there is another crop of these stories.

That's pretty true about college education in the US. There is a reason that 1/4 of the people on my res hall during my freshman year weren't from the US.


My university encourages foreign study very strongly; I figure we're sending just as many people out as we're taking in. This seems to be a general practice at the university level.

Congratulations on being admitted! Now, go away! :D


Oh and the US News rankings suck. I don't trust them giving my school a ranking of 64th when they say it's an urban school.


I dunno. It's the closest I can get to identifying which university I attend while not violating my own paranoia concerning privacy. All I'm saying is I'm one of those 50 :)

As far as "urban" goes, West Lafayette (at 28,778 people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Lafayette)) seems to qualify according to the definition used in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_area#United_States). My grandparents live in a town of over 100,000 people, and it's surrounded by farms too.

so every student passes? That is inane. Really.

If the school has too many failures it means the
"Children is not learning" and the school must have a funding cut for failing.

So it's pass all and get paid or be honest and end up with the Feds wanting you all fired.

I'd like to think that when (or if) I become a parent I wouldn't give up fighting for my kid

Fighting for what? An unrealistic ambition either imposed upon him/her, or cherished by him/her?

Implacability is a positive quality when supporting a child, but only insofar as the cause is realistic. Certain children simply are not born intelligent, some are not born to pursue an academic or professional path; why waste everybody's time by pretending otherwise?

Fighting for what? An unrealistic ambition either imposed upon him/her, or cherished by him/her?

Implacability is a positive quality when supporting a child, but only insofar as the cause is realistic. Certain children simply are not born intelligent, some are not born to pursue an academic or professional path; why waste everybody's time by pretending otherwise?

In regards to your first paragraph i've already posted how I feel about that.

I would much rather over-estimate my (potential) childs abilities and support them in all of their endeavours rather than selling them short. My parents could have easily given up on me when I was going through a bad patch at school (failed all my A-levels and got suspended twice) but they didn't give up on me and decide I was just plain bad (even though i'd been like that for 2 years). They fought for me and encouraged me and now i've had the chance to follow my ambitions and i'm in medical school. Everything at that time pointed to me having no potential and being a perfect case to give up on. Thankfully though no-one took that route

Well, you can rest easily knowing that tool will go nowheres in life, which should make you happy being that you are both an educator and a christian.

Why on earth would you think that I would be happy that Ms. Fernandez has been set up for failure by herself, her parents, and the system? That's entirely opposite of my OP where I asked if respondents would want this sort of pseudo-grade for their own kid.

New York. Not Michigan.

Although I should add that Michigan's public education system is seriously fucked up as well. Too many years of not enough resources and low standards. There are some brights spots, such as the International Academy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Academy) and there is a push for the state to use it as a model for reforming our educational system.

In regards to your first paragraph i've already posted how I feel about that.

I would much rather over-estimate my (potential) childs abilities and support them in all of their endeavours rather than selling them short. My parents could have easily given up on me when I was going through a bad patch at school (failed all my A-levels and got suspended twice) but they didn't give up on me and decide I was just plain bad (even though i'd been like that for 2 years). They fought for me and encouraged me and now i've had the chance to follow my ambitions and i'm in medical school. Everything at that time pointed to me having no potential and being a perfect case to give up on. Thankfully though no-one took that route

Firstly, in order to have even contemplated medical school, you must have demonstrated considerable academic ability prior to A-levels, whereas those to whom I refer are those who demonstrate no academic ability whatsoever and those who clearly require special education.

A quotation from "Persuasion" might be pertinent; "We are not all born to be beautiful". Replace "beautiful" with "successful", and one finds the great problem with modern education; no parent is willing to accept that little Wayne might not be able to be a neuro-surgeon, and hence simply adds so much mediocrity to a system that then obscures true achievement.

Although I should add that Michigan's public education system is seriously fucked up as well. Too many years of not enough resources and low standards. There are some brights spots, such as the International Academy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Academy) and there is a push for the state to use it as a model for reforming our educational system.

You know, I got a damn fine education in Muskegon Public Schools. From kindergarten (at Bunker, when it was still k-9) all the way to MHS (go, Big Reds!), I worked my ass off to get educated. I had great teachers, great parents, and a great support system. And I was lucky, but that doesn't mean that all public schools are bad. It's just as much what the kids and parents are willing to put in as what the schools have.

Firstly, in order to have even contemplated medical school, you must have demonstrated considerable academic ability prior to A-levels, whereas those to whom I refer are those who demonstrate no academic ability whatsoever and those who clearly require special education.

A quotation from "Persuasion" might be pertinent; "We are not all born to be beautiful". Replace "beautiful" with "successful", and one finds the great problem with modern education; no parent is willing to accept that little Wayne might not be able to be a neuro-surgeon, and hence simply adds so much mediocrity to a system that then obscures true achievement.

It's stupid to fight for your child while doing nothing to further their learning yourself i'll agree. Fighting for their inclusion in high tier exams, high stream classes, etc isn't the only answer. Getting them to work hard is also important. I don't consider myself particularly intelligent. I have to work twice as hard as everyone else to achieve the same grades. Natural talent will only get someone so far in life. It's the people that work hard that will out-do them. Fostering a childs ambitions needs to include that.

We aren't all born to be successful, but I won't be the one to tell my own child that. I won't teach them to aim slightly lower to increase their chances of achieving their goals. I'd much rather teach them to aim high and work their asses off while backing them fully.

If my (potential) child wanted to become a surgeon and had been getting only average grades i'd explain to them what is required of them and i'd do everything to help them until all avenues had been exhausted. Informing them of the challenges doesn't mean discouraging them though.

I do work, of course, however, I do so selectively, when necessary, and only as much as necessary.


And just think how much more you could achieve if you constantly worked hard.

Hard work + Talent = YAY

It's stupid to fight for your child while doing nothing to further their learning yourself i'll agree. Fighting for their inclusion in high tier exams, high stream classes, etc isn't the only answer. Getting them to work hard is also important. I don't consider myself particularly intelligent. I have to work twice as hard as everyone else to achieve the same grades. Natural talent will only get someone so far in life. It's the people that work hard that will out-do them. Fostering a childs ambitions needs to include that.

We aren't all born to be successful, but I won't be the one to tell my own child that. I won't teach them to aim slightly lower to increase their chances of achieving their goals. I'd much rather teach them to aim high and work their asses off while backing them fully.

Natural talent has got me this far; all I've not achieved academically is Oxbridge, and even that was unexpected. I know many people who work far harder than myself, and have achieved far less. I do work, of course, however, I do so selectively, when necessary, and only as much as necessary.

However, hard work is crucial to success, and should be instilled by all parents. An appreciation of talent does not preclude hard work though; that great protestant mantra that hard work can overcome any limitations is quite simply false.

In regards to parenting, once more all I can suggest is that you refer to my original post. I am referring more to those parents who outrightly refuse to accept that their child belongs in vocational or special education that to those who encourage a child of average ability to seek goals beyond his capacity.

I am very glad I'm home schooled.

Edit: Oh, some relevant stuff. When I was on a fishing trip, one of our companions at the shore lunch was this middle aged woman, who taught Spanish. She was under the opinion that we should give these unruly kids who don't want to be in school what they want - not to be in school. They're just distracting, and ruin the education for those who want to be there and learn. I disagreed, but thought it was an interesting opinion nonetheless.

My university encourages foreign study very strongly; I figure we're sending just as many people out as we're taking in. This seems to be a general practice at the university level.

Congratulations on being admitted! Now, go away! :D

We have a great study abroad program at my school, but most of those who were on my hall weren't there for just a semester. You would be surprised to see how many of those students will spend all four years at Purdue. I guess that just tells me how great the school is seen around the world.:p Maybe I'm just full of too much Boilermaker pride.



I dunno. It's the closest I can get to identifying which university I attend while not violating my own paranoia concerning privacy. All I'm saying is I'm one of those 50 :)

As far as "urban" goes, West Lafayette (at 28,778 people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Lafayette)) seems to qualify according to the definition used in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_area#United_States). My grandparents live in a town of over 100,000 people, and it's surrounded by farms too.


I would be willing to bet most of those 28,778 are students who live in West Laf full time, faculty, or people who provide services for the 38,000 full time students at Purdue. The instant you leave campus to either the South or West, you are in farmland or woods.


I just wonder how they can put us at 64 when we are in their top 10 for Engineering and Agriculture, and we are also in their top 20 for Pharmacy and Management. I'd figure we would have a higher ranking than they gave us.

Oh well, we're still better than the community college in Bloomington.

BTW, their assessment on campus life made sure to mention Grand Prix Week, but they forgot our world famous ESPN reviewed "Purdue Breakfast Club."

Ours is 75%, you can't go lower, I helped a friend grade her classes papers a few times, kids getting 25% and lower and I have to put "C" on their paper.

Freaks.

How does this help anyone?

:eek: That's just horrible. There are students here who get grades of like 10% in the easiest classes (Health class!:eek:), and they get exactly what they earned on their report card, an F.

Although at one point my friend was given 65% on his progress report even though he hadn't done any homework at all (his test scores were high, though). He's much smarter than I am, although I'm still smarter than pretty much everyone else aside from him in our class, but I work a lot harder on school work, and take more weighted classes that give out more homework, which I suppose is why I'm first in the class of about 500 or so students. I know that for my AP Chemistry class last year I had to spend about four to six hours outlining each chapter and two or three hours on lab reports, and that was about as long as it took everyone else in the class to do it (there were only 16 of us).

You know, I got a damn fine education in Muskegon Public Schools. From kindergarten (at Bunker, when it was still k-9) all the way to MHS (go, Big Reds!), I worked my ass off to get educated. I had great teachers, great parents, and a great support system. And I was lucky, but that doesn't mean that all public schools are bad. It's just as much what the kids and parents are willing to put in as what the schools have.

I agree there are some decent public schools out there. But for every good one there is there are several terrible ones. A lot of schools in the UP are terrible (I lived up there for a year) because there aren't enough students, and of course the Detroit school system is terrible because they have no tax revenue. I got a decent education myself at Alma High School, but Mount Pleasant was the only other school in the area that was remotely decent.

If the school has too many failures it means the
"Children is not learning" and the school must have a funding cut for failing.

So it's pass all and get paid or be honest and end up with the Feds wanting you all fired.

And that is the crux of "No Child Left Behind." It's another method of Starving The Beast.