NationStates Jolt Archive

I've always wondered if this ever showed up on the forums before, this being NSG. But since this is more of a theoretical exercise, I figured it'd be apt to put it here anyway.

Lets say its 200 BC. You've just been put on the throne of some geographically remote Empire. Where at? Probably Japan, Switzerland or maybe somewhere in Siberia. The where doesn't really matter. It's just hard for your neighbors to get to.

Your claim to the throne is a little shaky though, seeing as how you aren't really that well connected to the Imperial family, and being an empire isn't all flowers and sunshine since you've got to put up with the usual backstabbing and occasional rebellion.

On the plus side, you have a core legion of two thousand war automata that can be replenished, but not expanded, that are entirely loyal to you as well as a small cabal of spies/advisers. You also can't die of old age. Although if a piano fell on you you'd be dead either way.

Now here's the tricky part. Without an aggressive expansionist policy i.e. land grabs, create a stable and prosperous Empire that will last several thousand years.

So how would you do it? Domestic policies, foreign policies, where to put imperial coffers. Your the emperor/empress. Go crazy.

Create democratic/republic government with constitution.
Have elections.
Resign.

Create a cult of personality around me, probably deify myself - statues everywhere, stories of miracles, fatherly pictures of benevolent me,

Try and keep everyone fed.

Or...

Use my two thousand war automata and slaughter everyone in the country.

Enjoy my harem while I can.

Oh and political stuff: probably make lots of idealistic promises, only to be swept away with the exploits that come with power. Such exploits as having that massive harem previously mentioned.

*nods*

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that the first few people who replied auto-failed themselves.

Create democratic/republic government with constitution.
Have elections.
Resign.
And you would watch your country immediately collapse without any sort of gradual push towards democracy and a complete lack of understanding about what democracy is.

I've got a plan in mind, but I'll post the details later.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that the first few people who replied auto-failed themselves.

I resent this - I put a lot of thought into my plan :mad:

First Post!

It's 200 BC right, yeah; so say Im in Switzerland, the Second Punic War has just ended, with my automaton army I would THREATEN (no conquering, im just telling them im the boss now.) the gallic tribes with them to try to get them to bow down before, any dissenters would be faced with a two thousand strong automaton army :sniper: , the world at this point:

(201BC)

Gaul- a mess of tribes under my iron fist as overlord (kind of like a simplkified feudal system)

Italy- Roman Republic

Tunisia- Cathage have retreated after the loss of the Second Punic war.

I would anticipate a few years of peace, during which I would garner Greek information and pay tribes to research and gain information.

However, inevitably Rome would attack (they always do)

to be continued when i have more time...

Now here's the tricky part. Without an aggressive expansionist policy i.e. land grabs, create a stable and prosperous Empire that will last several thousand years.

So how would you do it? Domestic policies, foreign policies, where to put imperial coffers. Your the emperor/empress. Go crazy.

In defense of people who auto failed themselves:

1. Create an cult of personality (this is important, because the concept of a nation is a bit foreign to an empire).
2. Allocate 30% of the treasury to homeland security (You don't have an aggressive expansionist policy, that doesn't mean that everyone else does too)
3. Allocate 20% of the treasury to your agricultural and industrial base (fed and clothed people is happy people)
4. Allocate 10% of the treasury to the improvement of your infrastructure (the backbone of any kind of an empire)
5. Allocate 10% of the treasury to your government (delegating is so hard)
6. Allocate 10% of the treasury to public education and libraries (because you need a ruling elite to control the mass)
5. Allocate 10% of the treasury to yourself (a happy emperor in his harem is needed as to not to slaughter the masses in madness).
6. Kill any dissenters / families of the old ruling class and their families and their cats, or atleast exile them (and then kill them).
7. Repeat ad nauseam.

In case of an emergency you still have 10% of the treasury in reserve.

Engage in some sort of millennia-long plan not unlike Leto II.

I resent this - I put a lot of thought into my plan :mad:

Killing everyone in your nation is guaranteed to make it anything but stable and prosperous.

Details people, details. Not "Make everything happy" ideals, but plans of action.

In defense of people who auto failed themselves:

1. Create an cult of personality (this is important, because the concept of a nation is a bit foreign to an empire).
2. Allocate 30% of the treasury to homeland security (You don't have an aggressive expansionist policy, that doesn't mean that everyone else do too)
3. Allocate 20% of the treasury to your agricultural and industrial base (fed and clothed people is happy people)
4. Allocate 10% of the treasury to the improvement of your infrastructure (the backbone of any kind of an empire)
5. Allocate 10% of the treasury to your government (delegating is so hard)
6. Allocate 10% of the treasury to public education and libraries (because you need a ruling elite to control the mass)
5. Allocate 10% of the treasury to yourself (a happy emperor in his harem is needed as to not to slaughter the masses in madness).
6. Kill any dissenters / families of the old ruling class and their families and their cats, or atleast exile them (and then kill them).
7. Repeat ad nauseam.

See? Now this is a plan.

Details people, details. Not "Make everything happy" ideals, but plans of action.



See? Now this is a plan.

That's basically my plan with some treasury details :mad:

That's basically my plan with some treasury details :mad:

Hey, I defended you, see what's no.1 on my list? :)

Hey, I defended you, see what's no.1 on my list? :)

I know, it's a damn good plan - I'm complaining about the fascist OP :)

I know, it's a damn good plan - I'm complaining about the fascist OP :)

Oh suuuure, nobody complains when they make zombie threads with fast/slow zombies and what not. But make an empire thread with a few rules and suddenly it's fascist op.

Find a front group for my rule, maybe a Senate or popular body and they can rule 'in the name of the people' but I will in control behind the scenes. Set up a extensive security-apparachik of informants (since it's pre-technologica) in every street etc, police 'mob' squads, expropriate the property of all opponents, have 'general warrants' which enable the police-mobs to search entire neighborhoods on their own initiative.

Hrmm...if I was trying to maintain power within my own family line and ensure that the empire would last a bit? As opposed to striving for a "just and good" government?

Well, I would probably start by encouraging a feeling of manifest destiny, that the empire is entitled to the world in a divine sort of manner, while, at the same time, incorporating a divine throne type dealy with the ruling family (mine, that is) to maintain power within my bloodline. I'd give the work of education/indoctrination to the various temples, as well as resource allocation, in the same way the original city states of ancient Mesopotamia did, it worked well for them. This creates a framework of dependency upon the temple corporations for equitable distribution of resources, while these temples back my family as a legacy of divine rulers.

In order to maintain the support of the various temple corporations, though, I'd encourage each temple to formulate its own slight variations on the state religion in order to play them against each other so that no temple corporation, or alliance of such, is able to garner enough power to usurp the throne. This is extremely important since these institutions would be the primary method of control over the general populace. I'd also reinforce the divinity aspect by being removed enough from the populace that a belief in the divine rights of the emperor is plausible but not so removed that an abysmal disconnect forms between the ruling aristocracy and the general population. Part of doing this would be to build statues, monuments and the like praising the deeds and accomplishments of the empire as being things that "the holy emperor" or whatever brought into being.

With the social framework in place to maintain power over the peasantry, and the slow dismantling of the old ruling class (all families would slowly have to be removed from power to be replaced by new families loyal to the throne...but this would have to be a slow process, primarily done by pitting family against family, rather than showing my own hand), there'd also have to be something done to create ingenuity and creativity so that my empire's technology does not fall woefully behind the rest of the world's. Probably something akin to an Olympics of the sciences would have to be put into place, as well as a system that awards useful innovation much more than would seem proportionate.

Hrmm...if I was trying to maintain power within my own family line and ensure that the empire would last a bit? As opposed to striving for a "just and good" government?

Has to be stable and prosperous too. I mean, making it nosedive ala Mugabe is a no no.

But you seem to be off to a good start.

Has to be stable and prosperous too. I mean, making it nosedive ala Mugabe is a no no.

But you seem to be off to a good start.

Are we also assuming that resources within the empire's territory are somewhat plentiful? And that populations are spread out fairly evenly or that this is an area that has poor resources and is populated by dense pockets?

Because if the resources are plentiful and the population well distributed, it would probably requiring a different type of government and infrastructure than, say, a population that has to huddle around the few water sources and travel through a dangerous dessert to find worthwhile metal mines and such. Personally, I'd say the latter would be easier to maintain once the initial usurping of power was accomplished. The former would make it easy to garner support but more difficult to maintain it and require a more extensive bureaucracy.

I'm impressed - Liminus can be my advisor though I suspect I will need to have him killed in a few years. The Science Olympics was an especially good touch.

Deification is clearly the way forward to ensure longevity of government - especially if, due to the parameters of this thread, we're not allowed to go on a victorious rampage through neighboring, weaker countries.

Are we also assuming that resources within the empire's territory are somewhat plentiful? And that populations are spread out fairly evenly or that this is an area that has poor resources and is populated by dense pockets?

Because if the resources are plentiful and the population well distributed, it would probably requiring a different type of government and infrastructure than, say, a population that has to huddle around the few water sources and travel through a dangerous dessert to find worthwhile metal mines and such. Personally, I'd say the latter would be easier to maintain once the initial usurping of power was accomplished. The former would make it easy to garner support but more difficult to maintain it and require a more extensive bureaucracy.

In terms of living resources like arable land and water and population density, think of it as Switzerland or Japan. Enough to feed the people, enough mines to get things going, but you won't be sitting on any motherlodes.

Deification is clearly the way forward to ensure longevity of government - especially if, due to the parameters of this thread, we're not allowed to go on a victorious rampage through neighboring, weaker countries.

I made that caveat because empires that tended to keep expanding via warfare either suffered a destabilizing inner revolt that collapsed the whole structure or just made everyone band together and crush them.

In terms of living resources like arable land and water and population density, think of it as Switzerland or Japan. Enough to feed the people, enough mines to get things going, but you won't be sitting on any motherlodes.

Hrmm...in that case I would probably try to have a cycling population in those areas. Meaning that I'd have families commonly move between, say, a mine in the north, like a gold mine, and a mine or urban center in the south, a different type of metal or a construction/repair crews. The layout of resources strikes me as being too sparse for everyone to have somewhat decent access to them, but not so sparse that any kind of power grab through control of the resources would be met with outright hostility by the rest of the population. The reason for the cycling system is actually two fold. First, it keeps the population culturally homogeneous, and thus easier to rule, by ensuring that regions don't become too distinct from each other. It also makes it more difficult for a family or coalition to come to control a limited resource, kind of a form of anti-union precautions. You don't want the iron mining populations vying attempting to usurp the throne or gain independence at some point, for example. As a third, added bonus, it also encourages innovation by mixing various technologies. A family of miners that now specializes in repair and construction might come up with new techniques to reinforce structures, perhaps, due to their experience with mines, or some such.

Step 1: Solidify my claim to the Imperial throne by making it a religious mandate. I would plant a "prophet" or two in the general populace to preach to the masses of my divine right to rule, perhaps even my own dividinity, if necessary.

Step 2: Create a feudal system of land ownership. This will give incentive to landlords to defend their land as well as delegate governorship of my Empire to progressively smaller and more manageable pieces. The first few land grants would be to any well known and respected leaders/warriors/clerics. I would also plant an agent in each of their homes to assassinate them at the first sign of rebellion.

Step 3: Encourage the emergence of a merchant class to encourage money circulation and resource use.

Step 4: Offer tax/tithe incentives for landlords who improve their lands with infrastructure like roads, canals, aqueducts and so forth.

Step 5: Designate an heir, or produce one. And yes, I'd have a harem. oh yes indeedy-doo.

Step 6: Once my Empire is stabilized, I'd begin sending diplomats to surrounding nations to establish trade, codify borders and create treaties to avoid wars.

Step 7: Hold in reserve the ability to raise a national army under my personal command in times of extreme emergency, or to compel individual landlords to come to the aid of their fellows in times of need.

General Policy:

- Criminal justice would be based upon compensation, not deterrents. I'll not waste a dime of my national treasury on prisons. Crominals who harm others can work to compensate their victims. Severe or uncontrollable criminals, or those who simply cannot, in any way, work to compensate society for their crimes will be chained as rowers in my Imperial Navy until they die.

- Individuals will have the right to free speech, religion, trial and protections from search & seizure or unlawful imprisonment.

- There will be slavery in my Empire. Slaves to be provided by prisoners of foreign armies that invade my Empire. Slavery will also be a method of compensation for certain types of criminal behavior. Slavery will have nothing whatsoever to do with race, religion or sex.

- My personal retinue of automata will serve as my personal bodyguard and Palace security. When I ride into battle, they will ride with me. They will protect me, my harem and my home. I will never use them against citizens of my Empire except in self-defense.

Hrmm...in that case I would probably try to have a cycling population in those areas. Meaning that I'd have families commonly move between, say, a mine in the north, like a gold mine, and a mine or urban center in the south, a different type of metal or a construction/repair crews. The layout of resources strikes me as being too sparse for everyone to have somewhat decent access to them, but not so sparse that any kind of power grab through control of the resources would be met with outright hostility by the rest of the population. The reason for the cycling system is actually two fold. First, it keeps the population culturally homogeneous, and thus easier to rule, by ensuring that regions don't become too distinct from each other. It also makes it more difficult for a family or coalition to come to control a limited resource, kind of a form of anti-union precautions. You don't want the iron mining populations vying attempting to usurp the throne or gain independence at some point, for example. As a third, added bonus, it also encourages innovation by mixing various technologies. A family of miners that now specializes in repair and construction might come up with new techniques to reinforce structures, perhaps, due to their experience with mines, or some such.

That's a pretty good plan. But how about your own administrative set. How would that look like?

That's a pretty good plan. But how about your own administrative set. How would that look like?

Well, since it seems to be evolving into a fairly sprawling bureaucratic system, I'll have to think about it some. That requires a little deeper thought than I can give between doing review questions for an exam. =P

Off the top of my head, I would say that, no matter what, I can't allow a bureaucratic class, or one whose offices are transfered through lineage. There has to be some meritocratic system of promotion for the public offices that would take care of employment and resource allocation. Again, preferably it would be done through the local temples, ascribing it a kind of divine necessity, unchallengeable by citizens. However, like I said earlier, these temples would have to be somewhat competitive with each other, in order to ensure my power, but at the same time they would have to be somehow cooperative, in order to facilitate the labor trade necessary between economic sectors (rural farmers to miners to urban construction crews, etc.). This makes setting up an administrative system something of a challenge since it has to maintain those parameters, requiring checks and balances within the system. Pretty much everything has to have a check and balance, except for me, as the ruler. The power of the ruler can't be too direct, though, or it becomes a target of any dissatisfaction the citizenry may be feeling. So the power of the emperor has to be indirect, yet very effective.

Without even thinking too much about what such a system would look like, I can already tell that the emperor has to be somewhat intellectually capable. It's assumed that I, as the first emperor, am up to the challenge. However, any children I might have have to be selected for their intellectual capability and ingenuity. This means that, at least within the emperor's immediate family, education is paramount and a healthy respect for the emperor's teachers is, as well. The students must be humble enough to learn from their teachers but not so malleable as to allow their teachers to manipulate them. This requires a system of checks and balances, then, as well.

*sigh* and the administrative specifics is where it all gets really murky. Anyway, I have to run to class in a bit, but I'll see what I can come up with and post it later.

Hmmm... I have an empire...

Domestic Policy

1. Take 10 years creating and manufacturing a cult of personality so that everybody loves me or at least respects me enough.

2. With cult of personality firmly in place start land redistribution plan with disowning all nobles and making poor people happy as all are equal (including me)

3. Create townships that all specialize in one thing and have them compete against each other (i.e. Town A and B both farm while Town C and D mine etc.).

4. Use 2000 military guys plus cabal to keep all plots away from me.

-------------------
Foreign Policy

1. Military townships to build equipment and have men trained to be professional soldiers

2. Draft- 18-20 year olds for 2 years, both genders, learn to fight.

3. Reserves- All other eligible men/women after 20 are in reserves till 40.

4. Bribery to keep enemies away.

--------------------------
Other random things

-Local government consists of democratic elections

-Free education for all children. Although not mandatory.

-There's probably more that will be added later as I think about it.

Step 5: Designate an heir, or produce one.


Very good NB, except for this one point. Unless killed, you don't die of natural causes. A heir would under normal circumstances, never rise to power. Unless nudges were made...the stabby kind.

Without even thinking too much about what such a system would look like, I can already tell that the emperor has to be somewhat intellectually capable. It's assumed that I, as the first emperor, am up to the challenge. However, any children I might have have to be selected for their intellectual capability and ingenuity.

Just watch out for those "et tu Brutus" moments. Immortals tend to be dagger magnets for ambitious progeny.

I have an empire? How awesome:)

Logistical steps;

1. Construct a network of roads spanning my empire, so as to encourage trade, and ease of military movement.

2. Ensure adequate supplies of water, and sewage provisions, in all major conurbations.

3. Construct all residential areas in such a fashion so as to best preclude the spread of disease, fire and the like.

4. Create a centralised beureau responsible for the acquisition, and distribution, of sufficient food, whilst regulating prices.

5. Appoint a figure of known integrity to analyse the quality of the coinage, so as to maintain a standardised quality and preclude super-inflation.

Political measures;

1. Hire a bodyguard of foreign mercanaries loyal to myself alone

2. Select 15 individuals to comprise a ruling council to advise myself.

3. Create the post of chancellor; duties involve the establishment, and acquisition, of taxes, duties upon imports and exports, and the creation of public conveniances.

4. Appoint a spymaster, under whom a secret police force would dispose of undesirable individuals.

5. Appoint one governer to each province taken from the ranks of civil officials in the capital city and provinces, and another from eminent provincial leaders and figures.

6. Maintain a small professional army, with all male citizens required to undertake military service for two years at 18 to supplement said army, and when called upon after the expiration of said term of service.

7. Appoint an heir most suitable to the post.

8. Have all prisoners employed as slave labour for their term of imprisonment, at the direction of the chancellory.

I would be repeating what I've already said before, so I'll just put up this link. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=530128)

How can you have no checks and balances on your power and also have de facto limits on it? Sounds like a recipe for paradoxical self destruct.

How can you have no checks and balances on your power and also have de facto limits on it? Sounds like a recipe for paradoxical self destruct.

I have no de juris checks and balances, which really don't stop any tyranny. Rather, I have de facto restrictions, such as self-interest and philosophical restraints that, if ignored, would eliminate the foundation of my rule.

1. Hire a bodyguard of foreign mercanaries loyal to myself alone


What would these be for? You've already got automata.

Create a cult of personality around me, probably deify myself - statues everywhere, stories of miracles, fatherly pictures of benevolent me,

Try and keep everyone fed.



that and keep everyone too drunk to revolt...:p

Enjoy my harem while I can.


that too...:D

1. Increase agricultural produce as to keep the masses happy
2. Establish a Secret Police
3. Assasinate political rivals
4. Establish small, easily defensible forts across the mountain passes
5. Industrialization (IE, Roads, Palaces, NICE cities.. not wood)
6. Appoint a national guard apart from the army
7. Establish my dynasty
8. Keep a firm political leash on my generals
9. Improve foreign relations (I'm in the middle, everyone trades through me)
10. Alocate 25% of the treasury to commerce
11. New, state of the art equipment for my army
12. Choose a competent heir. AKA one who I have trained for the position for emperor

I'd go the theocracy route, I suppose, since land grabs aren't allowed.

I'd go the theocracy route, I suppose, since land grabs aren't allowed.

Yeah, but how would you do the specifics? Administration, taxes, etc, etc.

Yeah, but how would you do the specifics? Administration, taxes, etc, etc.

Um, I guess the religion would be an all encompassing dealio, like the scientologists. Everyone has some official capacity within the church, and the church owns everything and everyone. So there is no need for taxes or such, just some type of administration.

Only the most fanatical believers would be allowed to gain higher positions, and heresy would be crushed ruthlessly.

Then I'd send out missionaries and slowly convert the peoples around me to my cult, until finally I ruled the world as Pontifex Maximvs Lacadeamus I.

Then I'd send out missionaries and slowly convert the peoples around me to my cult, until finally I ruled the world as Pontifex Maximvs Lacadeamus I.

Might work. Might also get all your people banned from entering the nation. Japan did that after a rebellion caused by some missionaries I believe.

Create democratic/republic government with constitution.
Have elections.
Resign.

I'll give your empire three years tops before it collapsed.


Switzerland was part of Rome in 200 BC I think...

I'd be a benevolent dictator...helping the people and all...sorta like Caesar I guess for a contemporaryish example.

Might work. Might also get all your people banned from entering the nation. Japan did that after a rebellion caused by some missionaries I believe.

I'd try and hold a tight leash on the church members, and indoctrinate them not to make any rash violent moves, so there would be no takeovers until the numbers were overwhelmingly in my favor.

Of course, new converts of dubious quality would be 'invited' back to the central empire where they couldn't cause any trouble. I wouldn't even kill them, or treat them particularly badly, just keep a tight hold over them and put them in some menial, yet "spiritually" rewarding job.

I can imagine that as my empire expands eventually there will be opposition to missionaries and converts. But I would overcome that by using the most fanatic converts acting as a fifth column within the bordering states. As such, they would infiltrate under the guise of intellectuals, secularists politicians, important merchants/businessman and financiers in order to promote secular values and freedom of religion and conscience. This would paralyze and fragment any opposition to the spread of the church.

I could finance this from the church coffers and through favorable trade concessions.

Should work.

Doh, I forgot that I was immortal. Well, with that taken into consideration, I assume my children would be immortal, as well, so I'd probably have them trained and placed in high positions, almost equal to myself in terms of total power. If I die from an accident or successful plot, at least my progeny will continue my reign and be equipped to do so.
That's a pretty good plan. But how about your own administrative set. How would that look like?

Thought about the teaching of my children a bit more. They would have to have multiple teachers for each field of study that would cycle in five or seven month periods. I choose five or seven because they don't fit neatly into the full year and the odd cycle forms a kind of psychological disconnect, ensuring that my whatever little beasts I spawn are loyal more to me than their teachers.

I'd have my administrators compete with each other, and cycle through provinces governed on a ten year cycle, or until promoted. I do this because it seems like a good amount of time to become accustomed to their surroundings, but at the same time not allow them to become too popular with the locals and ferment any political instability. It would be a competitive system in which townships woulds be able to vote administrators out of office for poor performance, but, at the end of every year, whichever ones got the highest scores (most efficient, best improvement, highest production rates, etc. all get calculated in) would be moved up the administrative ladder for the following year, and then return to a local position in areas that they are most needed. After three promotions, the administrator is permanently promoted to either the upper echelons of the temple system (for whichever district most needs their specific talents) or into the federal administration, pending a review process that determines where their skills would be best used.

I'm sure there are problems I'm not seeing and holes in the system, but it seems to me like this work fairly well in promoting a healthy, but controllable, governing system. Competition, like Nietzsche said, really is the source of innovation. However, this kind of competition is horizontal versus vertical (or whatever, the horizontal/vertical analyses of these things always threw me off).

Should work.

For the first few nations maybe. I'd expect local rulers would recognize the pattern and try and contain you.

Doh, I forgot that I was immortal. Well, with that taken into consideration, I assume my children would be immortal, as well, so I'd probably have them trained and placed in high positions, almost equal to myself in terms of total power. If I die from an accident or successful plot, at least my progeny will continue my reign and be equipped to do so.


I'm a little ambivalent about the spreading of immortality among progeny. It's one thing to have a single immortal ruler. But if it's hereditary, you start having serious population problems a few generations down.

I would have to say extended lifespans, but not immortal. 200 years maximum for second generations, with a 25 year reduction in average lifespan per subsequent generation until you get to within normal human lifespans.


I'm sure there are problems I'm not seeing and holes in the system, but it seems to me like this work fairly well in promoting a healthy, but controllable, governing system. Competition, like Nietzsche said, really is the source of innovation. However, this kind of competition is horizontal versus vertical (or whatever, the horizontal/vertical analyses of these things always threw me off).

Should be. But you've left out education and judicial concerns at the moment. Those have to be addressed.

Also, at the administrative level, what kind of positions would they be overseeing? Are they in a position to gather large amounts of influence, etc, etc.

Oh yes, and oversight. Since district administrators can be voted out of office and such, what sort of involvement and knowledge would the average plebian have about the administrator? Would they be the largely ignorant masses or something else?

For the first few nations maybe. I'd expect local rulers would recognize the pattern and try and contain you.

That's why there is the fifth column. Doubtless there will be some opposition as time goes on, but it will be disorganized and ineffective because of the way my fifth column 'grooms' the target nations before I send the missionaries.

I have them do things like establish a complete right to freedom of religion long before the first missionary ever showed up.

I'm thinking over the extremely long term here.

Naturally, when the world is mostly the church, it probably won't work. But by then I can probably force capitulation through control of natural resources.

That's why there is the fifth column. Doubtless there will be some opposition as time goes on, but it will be disorganized and ineffective because of the way my fifth column 'grooms' the target nations before I send the missionaries.


No, no. I didn't mean a ban on missionaries. I mean a total ban of anyone from your nation similar to how Japan used to ban any Westerner from setting foot on their land on pain of death. This is likely to occur after the 2nd or 3rd nation falls to the fifth column, or even before.

No, no. I didn't mean a ban on missionaries. I mean a total ban of anyone from your nation similar to how Japan used to ban any Westerner from setting foot on their land on pain of death. This is likely to occur after the 2nd or 3rd nation falls to the fifth column, or even before.

I see. But japan is sort of a special case, being an united island with an ethnically homogeneous population (more or less). Most of the world has land borders so the trade dynamic across land borders and the distribution of ethnic groups makes it more difficult.

Also, the fifth columnists wouldn't acknowledge that they were even from the church lands. They'd have identities from elsewhere and no visible connection to the church. A bit like soviet agents of influence. They wouldn't even, many times, know who each other actually were. And they could recruit, train and promote people who shared the fifth column secularist agenda without ever exposing them to the church or acknowledging it. (You know, do not pick a man and tell him to do wrong, but find a man who will do wrong and pick him sort of thing).

I'd also use trade and alliances as leverage to prevent complete isolation.

Ahh, yes, then that might work. But you'd still have to put up with rival religious groups then. Depending on the rate of spread, you might have to put up with a powerful Holy Roman Empire that doesn't take kindly to conversions of any sort but theirs.

Should be. But you've left out education and judicial concerns at the moment. Those have to be addressed.Hrmmm...I admit, I'm not really too sure on the education. While I'd like a well-educated populace, if they're too well educated it becomes a breeding ground for discontent. There is also the fear of academics challenging my policies. I guess something like a rudimentary level of education up to the equivalent of, say, sophomores in high school would be universal. After that, each district would have specialist universities, depending on whatever industries that area emphasizes. I would use the elderly as a labor pool for educators, too, so as to extend their use. There would also be placed, in each school, some kind of placement supervisor, that could rate a person's skill set and recommend various industries they should go into. However, if a student was found to be especially good at research industries (engineering, chemistry, psychology, etc.) then that student would be sent to universities in the capital where they'd continue their studies in those fields, since they'd be so important for the advancement of technologies.

As far as the judiciary goes, it would operate at a local level, insofar as it did not interfere with federal mandates. Remember, the society is operating under the premise that temple corporations are pulling the strings of the local economies, and thus would have a large role in governing them, as well. Defendants would represent themselves, though. No lawyers would be allowed as it is the purpose of a lawyer to find loopholes which, by its very nature, subverts a certain amount of the government's authority.

Also, at the administrative level, what kind of positions would they be overseeing? Are they in a position to gather large amounts of influence, etc, etc.Which administrative level? The local administration? They would be primarily public servants of both the temples and the federal government. They would perform the general duties of deciding economic plans for their respective townships, collecting the taxes and keeping records (separate from the records the temple clergy would undoubtedly keep) to ensure the federal government receives their fare share, appointing/promoting/firing the education boards of the township, and serving as federal ambassador to the local clergy. At the federal level, the administrators would be in charge of communicating information between those ambassadors and me and my various advisers. The constant moving around of administrators would somewhat restrict the accumulation of massive amounts of influence, though a crafty, ambitious and charismatic administrator may actually benefit from the system. In this case I would probably have to create some kind of network of spies or competing federal administrators. I guess I could foster the necessary competition through yearly bonuses from the emperor and rotating slots on the advisory council so that the administrators themselves would check each others' influence; this is actually a good deal preferable to any network of spies, because a spy network inherently become a gathering point of influence for those within its network.

Oh yes, and oversight. Since district administrators can be voted out of office and such, what sort of involvement and knowledge would the average plebian have about the administrator? Would they be the largely ignorant masses or something else?

All citizenry would have to be thoroughly educated on how the local politics works. An understanding of the larger scheme wouldn't necessarily be a part of the average curriculum, being something the administrators learn as they move up and around. So the masses wouldn't be ignorant, but they'd be specialized and focused.

Ahh, yes, then that might work. But you'd still have to put up with rival religious groups then. Depending on the rate of spread, you might have to put up with a powerful Holy Roman Empire that doesn't take kindly to conversions of any sort but theirs.

That would be where the patience and immortality comes in. Obviously, being immortal, I could keep the church consistent in its dogma and goals over time, whereas a holy roman empire would suffer many different ruling factions over time; each with their own agenda. (Not to mention, after the first few centuries, my own immortality would be a compelling argument for the authenticity of my church over all others).

Hopefully it would be possibly to infiltrate any large rival religion and influence each successive generation of leadership towards a more favorable disposition towards my church.

The biggest obstacle I imagine would not being wiped out by a much larger rival (say the roman empire) while I am just starting out.

Hrmmm...I admit, I'm not really too sure on the education. While I'd like a well-educated populace, if they're too well educated it becomes a breeding ground for discontent. There is also the fear of academics challenging my policies. I guess something like a rudimentary level of education up to the equivalent of, say, sophomores in high school would be universal.

So basic math, history, science and literature?


I guess I could foster the necessary competition through yearly bonuses from the emperor and rotating slots on the advisory council so that the administrators themselves would check each others' influence; this is actually a good deal preferable to any network of spies, because a spy network inherently become a gathering point of influence for those within its network.


This is a very good deal, although a crafty, charismatic and sufficiently influential administrator could form some kind of cabal and plot an overthrow of some sort. The kind of plot that takes decades to put into motion.

What checks would you have against that? And more importantly, how would you deal with it if it came to a head?


All citizenry would have to be thoroughly educated on how the local politics works. An understanding of the larger scheme wouldn't necessarily be a part of the average curriculum, being something the administrators learn as they move up and around. So the masses wouldn't be ignorant, but they'd be specialized and focused.

Won't that mean that they'd be susceptible to smart administrators shaving off the taxes to hoard if they don't have the big picture?

Say Administrator in place 1 takes 10% of the cut, hides it somewhere, goes to place 2, does the same, and continues until he amasses a large resource base enough to be fairly untouchable.

That would be where the patience and immortality comes in. Obviously, being immortal, I could keep the church consistent in its dogma and goals over time, whereas a holy roman empire would suffer many different ruling factions over time; each with their own agenda. (Not to mention, after the first few centuries, my own immortality would be a compelling argument for the authenticity of my church over all others).

Hopefully it would be possibly to infiltrate any large rival religion and influence each successive generation of leadership towards a more favorable disposition towards my church.

The biggest obstacle I imagine would not being wiped out by a much larger rival (say the roman empire) while I am just starting out.

Well, the automata should be sufficient to prevent any sort of random smash and grab by the your neighbors. But if you get careless, a large enough coalition of forces will overrun you.

Also, regarding your conversions. What are you promising your converts anyway?

So basic math, history, science and literature?
Yup, pretty much.
This is a very good deal, although a crafty, charismatic and sufficiently influential administrator could form some kind of cabal and plot an overthrow of some sort. The kind of plot that takes decades to put into motion.

What checks would you have against that? And more importantly, how would you deal with it if it came to a head?
Hrm...that is true, but I think it would be fairly difficult for even a crafty administrator to do so with the cycling seats on the advisory council. Keep in mind that the council would probably be living in the capital city and near to me so that they can always be reached. However, the administrators they are chosen from are not necessarily always living in the city, they move as their assignments require. Since there are no instant forms of communication, without geographical proximity, any kind of cabal would become much more difficult to maintain.

If something did come to a head, though, I'd have my guard (assuming I survive the attempt) kill all conspirators, marry off their widows to form alliances with other nations (since we've been ignoring foreign policy up to this point) and raise their orphaned children as soldiers. I guess that's another thing I would do, all orphans would be raised and employed by the military.

Won't that mean that they'd be susceptible to smart administrators shaving off the taxes to hoard if they don't have the big picture?

Say Administrator in place 1 takes 10% of the cut, hides it somewhere, goes to place 2, does the same, and continues until he amasses a large resource base enough to be fairly untouchable.

That's true, but it should become apparent eventually due to the competitive nature of the system where all production and revenue is reported and then tallied to decide the promotions. At some point the pattern would become noticeable as every town the administrator takes revenue from would report lower numbers than their prior and latter administrators, presumably. This requires an entire branch of accountants, I guess, so we can just add that to the growing bureaucracy. If an administrator were so good as to never get caught doing this, then they'd probably be so ambitious as to attempt the cabal scenario above and, hopefully, be removed. I'd also have the crime punishable by death as a "crime against the people" and make sure that it was much publicized. Same dealy as before with his wife and kids. In fact, these widows would probably benefit from their husbands' failed plots as it would raise them to what I will now call "ambassadorial royalty", an adopted extension of my family that will be used to create alliances with other nations.

If something did come to a head, though, I'd have my guard (assuming I survive the attempt) kill all conspirators, marry off their widows to form alliances with other nations (since we've been ignoring foreign policy up to this point) and raise their orphaned children as soldiers. I guess that's another thing I would do, all orphans would be raised and employed by the military.


What if it's an insurrection? Say they manage to stockpile arms and resources to declare independence while sitting on resource points?

Also, keeping mind foreign relations this time, assume that they may or may not form alliances with them.

But other than that, what would you do normally in regards to foreign relations and cultural development? As well as competing religions.

What if it's an insurrection? Say they manage to stockpile arms and resources to declare independence while sitting on resource points?

Also, keeping mind foreign relations this time, assume that they may or may not form alliances with them.

But other than that, what would you do normally in regards to foreign relations and cultural development? As well as competing religions.

Well, I'd be actively forming alliances and the like through trade and marriage. If an insurrection happened, and some of my former "allies" were supporting it, I'd just have to shut it down with my own army. At a certain point political maneuvering can only do so much and you've simply got to have faith in your own armaments and allies.

Like I said, alliances would be crafted through trade relations and marriages, as per the norm of the time. I wouldn't worry too much about cultural development and just let it happen. In fact, a static culture is fine, as long as technology progresses at a steady flow; hell, it'd make it easier to manage, none of this "keeping up with the times" crap that would probably become tiresome when one is immortal. I also wouldn't worry too much about competing religions, they only move in on the local religions in event of the locals being conquered or the system being on the verge of collapse, both of which signify more pressing concerns than a different religious system.

Well, I'd be actively forming alliances and the like through trade and marriage. If an insurrection happened, and some of my former "allies" were supporting it, I'd just have to shut it down with my own army. At a certain point political maneuvering can only do so much and you've simply got to have faith in your own armaments and allies.

Like I said, alliances would be crafted through trade relations and marriages, as per the norm of the time. I wouldn't worry too much about cultural development and just let it happen. In fact, a static culture is fine, as long as technology progresses at a steady flow; hell, it'd make it easier to manage, none of this "keeping up with the times" crap that would probably become tiresome when one is immortal. I also wouldn't worry too much about competing religions, they only move in on the local religions in event of the locals being conquered or the system being on the verge of collapse, both of which signify more pressing concerns than a different religious system.

And with that, Liminus wins the thread. It's definitely the most extensive planning I've seen so far. :p

The key to developing an empire that would last practically forever would be flexibility and adaptability.

My plan would be fairly simple – minimal bureaucracy and restriction on trade. The imperial government would be very limited in nature, basically only existing to enforce the law (such laws being restricted to basic protections against violence, theft, or fraud), promote infrastructure developments (such as the Roman Empire’s roads, aqueducts, sewers, and baths), military defense, and encouraging trade.

Government will be mostly managed on small scale regional and municipal governments with minimal interference – basically a federalist system allowing for each region to specialize to fit their particular needs and experiment with new ideas (likely something similar to the Roman Empire, but the Senate equivalent based more upon individual accomplishments and demonstrated service to the empire rather than on inheritance, but that can vary from province to province).

This system allows for great individual freedoms and keeps any particular governor too politically weak to stage a significant rebellion. The people enjoy the freedoms, the provinces are not micromanaged from a distant capital, and trade and economic/technological development keep people fed and happy.

I would not have a huge palace with a giant throne for me to sit in. The imperial house would be fairly utilitarian, though impressive enough for visitors (both to awe foreign dignitaries and intimidate misbehaving politicians). The emperor himself will change from time to time but always someone with a commanding stage presence and is good at thinking on his feet while I take an official title of something inconsequential… third minister for colonization or some such. This provides ambitious people with a target of the throne, keeps assassins away, and allows me to go about my business with minimal attention from anyone. A figurehead does so many things for you if you are not so proud and foolish as to want to flaunt your personal power in public.

The focus of the government will simply be to encourage technological and commercial development. A thriving economic and social metropolis spreads her influence simply by existing – given time, no military aggression is necessary to convert neighbors into vassals.

The military is very necessary for defense simply because people will always be after the riches of the empire. It will be kept as a professional force and partly paid for by being mercenaries for neighbor states. The empire will then have a huge army of well trained, experienced, and adaptable soldiers (from fighting a wide variety of opponents all the time) who also have first hand experience with the armies and lands of the neighbors. Two added bonuses are getting your neighbors to subsidize your army while (with low introductory rates) getting the most likely aggressors reliant upon imperial troops.

As Rome discovered, when your military is mostly comprised of Germans, ordering them to slaughter Germanic tribes (the women and children of your soldiers) is a bad idea.

Culturally speaking, facilitating trade and movement will keep everyone fairly well connected to the whole, and eventually convert the culture of your neighbors. The freedom and wealth of the empire would be very attractive.

Domination of your neighbors through soft power: when they desire to be citizens of the empire, envy the freedoms and wealth that comes from being a part of the empire, and their government is too tightly reliant upon the empire for both its economy and military, it is as good as conquered.

The key to developing an empire that would last practically forever would be flexibility and adaptability.


True enough.


Government will be mostly managed on small scale regional and municipal governments with minimal interference – basically a federalist system allowing for each region to specialize to fit their particular needs and experiment with new ideas (likely something similar to the Roman Empire, but the Senate equivalent based more upon individual accomplishments and demonstrated service to the empire rather than on inheritance, but that can vary from province to province).

I'm assuming they still pay taxes to a centralized governing body?


I would not have a huge palace with a giant throne for me to sit in. The imperial house would be fairly utilitarian, though impressive enough for visitors (both to awe foreign dignitaries and intimidate misbehaving politicians). The emperor himself will change from time to time but always someone with a commanding stage presence and is good at thinking on his feet while I take an official title of something inconsequential… third minister for colonization or some such. This provides ambitious people with a target of the throne, keeps assassins away, and allows me to go about my business with minimal attention from anyone. A figurehead does so many things for you if you are not so proud and foolish as to want to flaunt your personal power in public.


That implies a puppet complicit with the entire deception though, and nobody else knowing what's going on. How are you going to ensure that he won't quietly do away with you and become the emperor for real? Remember, this guy won't be immortal. You'd have to ensure the loyalty of every following decoy.

But I do like the rest of your plan though.

infrastructure is the key. infrastructure that everyone uses, bennifits from and can see with thier own eyes and experience the bennifits of.

otherwise there really isn't any reason to keep a nation or empire in power.

in a setting that far back this would mean mostly roads for foot and equestrian traffic, and water delivery infrastructure.

but encouragement of learning and even innovations could be useful if its done right. i know there's some delicate problems with that at the point and context described. they would just have to be delt with on a day to day basis.

maintaining an immage of fairness and even handedness is vital to the creation and maintainence of popular support. always of course there is a balancing of this with the concerns of personal power, and even life, that may at times make unavoidable concessions to other members of the ruling elete.

yet one cannot trust one's well being entirely to either.

i seem to remember master kung saying something about a three legged stool, consisting of the strenth of force being only one leg, with popular well being and popular good will, respectively being each of the other two.

=^^=
.../\...

I'm assuming they still pay taxes to a centralized governing body?
The best way of collecting taxes would probably vary depending on particular circumstances. The imperial treasury might collect directly from the territories (usage fees on imperial owned infrastructure perhaps) or from the territorial government. This could even be different from territory to territory allowing for different circumstances and to experiment with what works best.

That implies a puppet complicit with the entire deception though, and nobody else knowing what's going on. How are you going to ensure that he won't quietly do away with you and become the emperor for real? Remember, this guy won't be immortal. You'd have to ensure the loyalty of every following decoy.
The puppet, if someone who actually managed to work his way up to the position through capability, will not need much interference anyway. Ceremonial duties, diplomatic meetings, daily administration of the empire, etc would probably take up a lot of time, and subtle pressure on the second tier leadership would probably be enough to direct the emperor on the right path. It is questionable as to whether or not he even need be aware of the steering until some major clash in direction occurs (if any do) - only at that point will anything overt be needed.

Given the time (2 or 3 generations should do the trick), there is the possibility to create a myth of divine intervention for the emperor through certain specific (but controllable) portents, by which the emperor will think he got a message from the gods to change his mind.

If even the Gods cannot sway him from the wrong path, he will learn to whom the imperial guard is loyal.

The puppet, if someone who actually managed to work his way up to the position through capability, will not need much interference anyway. Ceremonial duties, diplomatic meetings, daily administration of the empire, etc would probably take up a lot of time, and subtle pressure on the second tier leadership would probably be enough to direct the emperor on the right path. It is questionable as to whether or not he even need be aware of the steering until some major clash in direction occurs (if any do) - only at that point will anything overt be needed.

Given the time (2 or 3 generations should do the trick), there is the possibility to create a myth of divine intervention for the emperor through certain specific (but controllable) portents, by which the emperor will think he got a message from the gods to change his mind.

If even the Gods cannot sway him from the wrong path, he will learn to whom the imperial guard is loyal.

Hmm, here's one thing that doesn't make much sense though. Decoy rulers work because the real ruler doesn't outlive the decoy by very much assuming death by old age. But here, you're immortal. And the decoy isn't. As a decoy though, said decoys lineage would be the one ascending, unless you've got more of a presidential system rather than imperial.