NationStates Jolt Archive

PHOENIX, Arizona (AP) -- Officers responding to a report of an exorcism on a young girl found her grandfather choking her and used stun guns to subdue the man, who later died, authorities said Sunday.

The 3-year-old girl and her mother, who was also in the room during the struggle between 49-year-old Ronald Marquez and officers, were hospitalized, police said. Their condition was unavailable.

The relative who called police said an exorcism had also been attempted Thursday.

"The purpose was to release demons from this very young child," said Sgt. Joel Tranter.

Officers arrived at the house Saturday and entered when they heard screaming coming from a bedroom, Tranter said.

A bed had been pushed up against the door; the officers pushed it open a few inches and saw Marquez choking his bloodied granddaughter, who was crying in pain and gasping, Tranter said.

A bloody, naked 19-year-old woman who police later determined to be Marquez's daughter and the girl's mother was in the room, chanting "something that was religious in nature," Tranter said.

The officers forced open the door enough for one to enter, leading to a struggle in which an officer used a stun gun on Marquez, Tranter said.

After the initial stun had no visible effect, another officer squeezed into the room and stunned him. The girl was freed and passed through the door to the relative, Tranter said.

Marquez was placed in handcuffs after a struggle with officers and initially appeared normal, but then stopped breathing, Tranter said.

He could not be revived and was pronounced dead at a hospital.

The cause of death was not immediately known, and autopsy results probably will not be available for several weeks, Tranter said.

Tranter declined to identify Marquez's daughter and granddaughter but said they lived in the house with Marquez.

The mother was not arrested, but police will consider criminal charges, Tranter said.

There was no phone listing at Ronald Marquez's address.


http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/07/29/exorcism.death.ap/index.html?iref=newssearch

Thoughts, anyone?

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/07/29/exorcism.death.ap/index.html?iref=newssearch

Thoughts, anyone?

Your title needs some work. It's the grandfather that died, not the girl.

On the story, that is the most fucked up thing I've heard in a while. Choking a three year-old to release spirits while her bloody, naked 19 year-old mother stands back and chants? Really fucking weird.

Religion strikes again.

Your title needs some work. It's the grandfather that died, not the girl.

On the story, that is the most fucked up thing I've heard in a while. Choking a three year-old to release spirits while her bloody, naked 19 year-old mother stands back and chants? Really fucking weird.

I wonder why isn't DK/RO/EO/Puppet-of-the-week here to denounce all Christians in general and (seemingly) Catholics in particular or (geography) Americans in general and Arizonians in particular as ritual evil child abusers.

Why is it whenever there's something really insanely creepy about the death religion is somehow involved?

Really? Oops. It doesn't change the topic from being about idiocy, though.

Crazy. Well, he's dead now.

Why is it whenever there's something really insanely creepy about the death religion is somehow involved?

Because non religious perform "exorcisms"?

Maybe religion gets the creative juices flowing?

I take my quote from a book I rather like (Honor Harrington series)

"Religion has probably been the single biggest cause for us killing eachother"
"I know he loves us but sometimes we must be a horrible disappointment to him"

Why is it whenever there's something really insanely creepy about the death religion is somehow involved?

Because religion invented insanely creepy deaths. It's their whole schitck.

One less Jesus-freak.

Religion strikes again.

Indeed.

Sickening, really...the idea of "demonic spirits" existing is ludicrous, and these barbaric rituals to "release them" are disgusting.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/07/29/exorcism.death.ap/index.html?iref=newssearch

Thoughts, anyone?

Sick bastards. The mother should go to jail for her part in her daughter's torture. Needless to say, she should not be allowed to raise the girl.

Religion strikes again.

No, insanity strikes again.
That would be like me saying "There go teh homos spreading AIDS again."

No, insanity strikes again.
That would be like me saying "There go teh homos spreading AIDS again."

...

Uh, no, no it wouldn't be, because homosexuals aren't the only ones with AIDs. Religious folks are the only ones who do this kind of crazy crap, however.

Why is it whenever there's something really insanely creepy about the death religion is somehow involved?

Oh, I don't know, I find honor killings pretty creepy.

...

Uh, no, no it wouldn't be, because homosexuals aren't the only ones with AIDs. Religious folks are the only ones who do this kind of crazy crap, however.

Cite source, please, that ONLY religious folks torture and murder.

Oh, I don't know, I find honor killings pretty creepy.



Cite source, please, that ONLY religious folks torture and murder.

I think he meant that the only doers of exorcism are religious, which makes sense. If he meant torture in general... that's BS, obviously.

I saw this on another forum I post on. Do you want to know what the title of the thread was? "Religious man murdered by police brutality".

I think he meant that the only doers of exorcism are religious, which makes sense. If he meant torture in general... that's BS, obviously.

Yes, I was referring to exorcism and similar rituals.

Cite source, please, that ONLY religious folks torture and murder.

I think you just hit a straw man. The problem here was that this guy was trying to exorcise his granddaughter, not torture or murder her. Exorcism is necessarily religious in nature and in this case took a violent turn. As such, it really is a problem of religion, this idea of people can be possessed by spirits that must be driven out, by brute force if necessary.

I think he meant that the only doers of exorcism are religious, which makes sense. If he meant torture in general... that's BS, obviously.

Except they're not, always. Look up Ed and Lorraine Warren and read their accounts of how they helped exorcise a werewolf demon.

(Do I believe it? No. Just goes to show there are secular nutjobs who believe in and participate in exorcism too.)

Religion strikes again.

Religion? All religions and religious people are not like that. I'm religious and I think the people being spoken of were crazy; I do not wish to be associated or "lumped together" with idiots who do such bizarre things as choking their offspring's offspring during an "exorcism" or whatever they were doing. I do not believe in such nonsense.

Except they're not, always. Look up Ed and Lorraine Warren and read their accounts of how they helped exorcise a werewolf demon.

(Do I believe it? No. Just goes to show there are secular nutjobs who believe in and participate in exorcism too.)

How were they not religious?

I think you just hit a straw man. The problem here was that this guy was trying to exorcise his granddaughter, not torture or murder her. Exorcism is necessarily religious in nature and in this case took a violent turn. As such, it really is a problem of religion, this idea of people can be possessed by spirits that must be driven out, by brute force if necessary.

Except that non-insane people understand that 1)three year olds may act as if they are demonic. This is just being three and 2)what in the past people thought of as 'demonic possession' is what mental health professionals treat today.

Except they're not, always. Look up Ed and Lorraine Warren and read their accounts of how they helped exorcise a werewolf demon.

(Do I believe it? No. Just goes to show there are secular nutjobs who believe in and participate in exorcism too.)

They're not secular if they performed an exorcism, no matter how much they try to refer to themselves as secular.

But please do not mistake this as my meaning that all religious people MUST be crazy, because I'm certainly not saying that. I'm just saying that only religious nutjobs practice exorcisms.

Religion? All religions and religious people are not like that. I'm religious and I think the people being spoken of were crazy; I do not wish to be associated or "lumped together" with idiots who do such bizarre things as choking their offspring's offspring during an "exorcism" or whatever they were doing. I do not believe in such nonsense.

QFT.

How were they not religious?

http://www.warrens.net/main.htm

This is their official site. Does it mention anything in the way of religious affiliation?

No, insanity strikes again.
That would be like me saying "There go teh homos spreading AIDS again."
A Fass flamebait contest?

I LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIKE you. :)

Religion? All religions and religious people are not like that. I'm religious and I think the people being spoken of were crazy; I do not wish to be associated or "lumped together" with idiots who do such bizarre things as choking their offspring's offspring during an "exorcism" or whatever they were doing. I do not believe in such nonsense.

Ditto that.

Unfortunately, movies like The Exorcist don't help at all. But then again, there probably isn't much of a demand for exorcisms where the affected doesn't even realize the possession or removal thereof...

What this was, probably, was asshole #1 (being Granddad) and asshole #2 (being the also-abused mother) have no healthy idea of what is normal behavior for a three year old child and how to deal with tantrums, potty training, and all the rest.

"OMG the kid won't stop running around, getting into everything, and throwing tantrums when she doesn't get her way!"

"Must be possessed. Let's beat and choke the hell out of her."

Crazy abusive people.

Wait a moment...aren't exorcisms only supposed to be performed with the explicit permission of the Church by an exorcist specifically trained in the rituals and rites associated with the ceremony?

QFT.



http://www.warrens.net/main.htm

This is their official site. Does it mention anything in the way of religious affiliation?

Ed is a self proclaimed "religious demonologist" all 6 of his other partners were priests.
http://www.ghostvillage.com/legends/warrens.shtml

This is their official site. Does it mention anything in the way of religious affiliation?

It mentions teh Devil. Therefore they are religious. Q.E.D.

Only if you live by the bible.

Wait a moment...aren't exorcisms only supposed to be performed with the explicit permission of the Church by an exorcist specifically trained in the rituals and rites associated with the ceremony?

Bibles? We need no stinkin' Bibles.

What this was, probably, was asshole #1 (being Granddad) and asshole #2 (being the also-abused mother) have no healthy idea of what is normal behavior for a three year old child and how to deal with tantrums, potty training, and all the rest.

"OMG the kid won't stop running around, getting into everything, and throwing tantrums when she doesn't get her way!"

"Must be possessed. Let's beat and choke the hell out of her."

Crazy abusive people.

Indeed.

Wait a moment...aren't exorcisms only supposed to be performed with the explicit permission of the Church by an exorcist specifically trained in the rituals and rites associated with the ceremony?

Right, the Catholic Church (and the Orthodox Churches) are very, VERY strict in the confirmation of possession and then the proceeding ceremony and rituals.

Choking the person is not a proper method of exorcism. If the guy was a Protestant, in which case has no code to follow like the Catholic and Orthodox churches, then the dumbass shouldn't have been exorcising his three year old daughter, since there's no way he could have known what he was doing, and should have summoned a pastor who DID know what to do.

It's like building a nuclear bomb with your only experience being that you played with Lego as a kid. This guy was an idiot, not an exorcist.

Right, the Catholic Church (and the Orthodox Churches) are very, VERY strict in the confirmation of possession and then the proceeding ceremony and rituals.

Choking the person is not a proper method of exorcism. If the guy was a Protestant, in which case has no code to follow like the Catholic and Orthodox churches, then the dumbass shouldn't have been exorcising his three year old daughter, since there's no way he could have known what he was doing, and should have summoned a pastor who DID know what to do.

It's like building a nuclear bomb with your only experience being that you played with Lego as a kid. This guy was an idiot, not an exorcist.

The fact that they still believe in demonic possession in any capacity does not raise their standing in my eyes

Because non religious perform "exorcisms"?

Maybe religion gets the creative juices flowing?

I take my quote from a book I rather like (Honor Harrington series)

"Religion has probably been the single biggest cause for us killing eachother"
"I know he loves us but sometimes we must be a horrible disappointment to him"

True. God is quite the nasty smitin' bastard when he wants to be. I mean, you saw what he did to Job, right? And that flood, and not to mention all those plagues and shit. He can be creative. No wonder his followers do such insane shit. Look what their influencing force is. They've got to live up to that if they want to land in his good graces. ;)

Because religion invented insanely creepy deaths. It's their whole schitck.

Keeps the masses in order. All part of God's evil masterful plan...

I think he meant that the only doers of exorcism are religious, which makes sense. If he meant torture in general... that's BS, obviously.

Since it seems to me that exorcism is typically associated with religion.

Wait a moment...aren't exorcisms only supposed to be performed with the explicit permission of the Church by an exorcist specifically trained in the rituals and rites associated with the ceremony?

You think that'd stop someone dead set on exorcising some random demon they conjured up out of their own twisted, sick imagination?!

seems the grandad was the one needed exersisom(SC)

The fact that they still believe in demonic possession in any capacity does not raise their standing in my eyes

Well, lucky for you, I would think that they don't give a crap about your opinion.

Otherwise, they might try and exorcise you. :p

Well, lucky for you, I would think that they don't give a crap about your opinion.

Otherwise, they might try and exorcise you. :p
They can try ... they wont find me so easy as the 3 year old girl, they tried to hush me up about their dirty secrets once I have no problem doing whatever it takes.

Oh, there are demonic forces out there.

This, however, was clearly NOT a bona fide exorcism. I suspect the mother will be incarcerated.

The whole chanting thing screams "cult".

I've seen this movie before, the priest tricks the demon into leaving the child and possessing him, only to jump out a window to commit suicide.

Those are some messed up people.

But, we still have to remember not 99% of religious people are not as crazy as these ones are.

Wait a moment...aren't exorcisms only supposed to be performed with the explicit permission of the Church by an exorcist specifically trained in the rituals and rites associated with the ceremony?

Yes. But that's not going to stop an insane 49 year old grandfather and his 19 year old daughter from performing one on a 3 year old girl.

....

Looking at the ages, insanity, and violence, is anyone else thinking that incest is a possibility? Esp. since the daughter doesn't seem to have been punished for the sin of having pre-marital sex at 15?
I'm not saying that it is what happened, but....

Oh, there are demonic forces out there.And in here, on NS. :eek:


The whole chanting thing screams "cult".Isn't the only difference 'twixt "cult" and "religion" is sheer #s?

It mentions teh Devil. Therefore they are religious. Q.E.D.

Isn't "Devil" itself an older Indian term? (not "Native American")

It's interesting that they don't know the cause of death for the old man. My favorite theory put forth so far? That it's cuz the demon left the girl and entered him.

No joke, someone is serious about that suggestion.

Let's just hope people like that aren't coroners. "Cause of death: Demonic Possession."

It's interesting that they don't know the cause of death for the old man. My favorite theory put forth so far? That it's cuz the demon left the girl and entered him.Or "God" gave up on the last vestiges of contact with the putrid bastard, and he had no good "manna" leftover to sustain him. Then one or two bolts into the mix, and he's coasting the planes.

Hm. This is the second exorcism mishap I've read about here in the past month, give or take. Sounds to me like the various churches need to publish a handbook, or make existing ones more available. :p

It mentions teh Devil. Therefore they are religious. Q.E.D.

And the calling the catholic priest and going to a catholic church

Wow....something is telling me that the 'exorcism' is probably a cover story for something else, something more sickly and disgusting....

I mean think about it, when was the last time you had an exorcism that involved naked woman, and a man choking the possessed person?

and now let your mind slowly switch gears.....

Wow....something is telling me that the 'exorcism' is probably a cover story for something else, something more sickly and disgusting....

I mean think about it, when was the last time you had an exorcism that involved naked woman, and a man choking the possessed person?

and now let your mind slowly switch gears.....

I've heard a few 'true' exorcism stories from Catholics, and yeah, they were *nothing* like that. :p They basically involved a priest showing up, saying a prayer, sprinkling incense, holy water, etc. and leaving. Pretty dull. Not front-page stuff. ;)

I've heard a few 'true' exorcism stories from Catholics, and yeah, they were *nothing* like that. :p They basically involved a priest showing up, saying a prayer, sprinkling incense, holy water, etc. and leaving. Pretty dull. Not front-page stuff. ;)

You still have to wonder why the mother was naked, and why the grand father thought that choking the girl would be a good way to drive the demon out. I mean wouldn't that what the demon want ultimately? I mean if the child dies without having her soul purged of the demon, then she's damned.

You still have to wonder why the mother was naked, and why the grand father thought that choking the girl would be a good way to drive the demon out. I mean wouldn't that what the demon want ultimately? I mean if the child dies without having her soul purged of the demon, then she's damned.

Yeah, that doesn't add up at all. They'd better have some good documentation - the surviving woman, that is - that they were attempting exorcism, if they want anyone to believe it. I sure don't, right now.

Yeah, that doesn't add up at all. They'd better have some good documentation - the surviving woman, that is - that they were attempting exorcism, if they want anyone to believe it. I sure don't, right now.

My mind is leaning towards pedophilia, and incest.

Yes when I read stories like these, I do tend to think the worse. Yay Cynicism!

Why is it whenever there's something really insanely creepy about the death religion is somehow involved?

lol, you know why. ;)

My mind is leaning towards pedophilia, and incest.

Yes when I read stories like these, I do tend to think the worse. Yay Cynicism!

Well, it's child abuse at the very least. Hopefully, that's all it is, but it does look very wrong.

That's just plain sick.
Idiots....why oh why....I feel for the 3 year old

Except that non-insane people understand that 1)three year olds may act as if they are demonic. This is just being three and 2)what in the past people thought of as 'demonic possession' is what mental health professionals treat today.

Some insane people understand that too. *nod* :)

Wait a moment...aren't exorcisms only supposed to be performed with the explicit permission of the Church by an exorcist specifically trained in the rituals and rites associated with the ceremony?

Yes. It'd be like starting a diet without consulting a doctor first: Bad idea. *nod*

Yes. It'd be like starting a diet without consulting a doctor first: Bad idea. *nod*

LG, you're not fooling anyone. Bad ideas are like mud to you. I bet you've considered swan diving into concrete before just to traumatize some people.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/07/29/exorcism.death.ap/index.html?iref=newssearch

Thoughts, anyone?
Jesus loves the little children?

Um, God is loving, and all that was for a Higher Plan?

I'm sure that little kid learned a valuable lesson from being tortured by her loved ones?

LG, you're not fooling anyone. Bad ideas are like mud to you. I bet you've considered swan diving into concrete before just to traumatize some people.

'Considered' implies that I thought the action through including the consequences before undertaking it.

Exorcism v. Electroshock Weapon. 0:1

Is this what Christians mean by "suffer the little children"?

Grandfather dies after injuring 3-yr old girl during "exorcism"

I can't really say I'm too bothered, to be honest. :headbang:

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/07/29/exorcism.death.ap/index.html?iref=newssearch

Thoughts, anyone?

Looks more about the idiocy of using stun guns to me. Aren't policemen trained to overpower someone without resorting to electrocution?

Anyway, about the exorcism: clearly, this time Satan won!;)

My, to die because of such bullshit...

Looks more about the idiocy of using stun guns to me. Aren't policemen trained to overpower someone without resorting to electrocution?

Anyway, about the exorcism: clearly, this time Satan won!;)

My, to die because of such bullshit...

It can be quite difficult to break a stranglehold on someone so i'd say they were justified in using stun guns to stop him quickly

It can be quite difficult to break a stranglehold on someone so i'd say they were justified in using stun guns to stop him quickly

Meh. Of course one must judge on a case-per-case basis, but the general picture about the effects of stun guns isn't excatly idylliac, I think. Maybe a good old fashioned punch would have been better, and also less risky - they could have hit the girl. Stun guns suck.

Is this what Christians mean by "suffer the little children"?

No. What we Christians mean is that people should suffer and that three year olds should be the preferred torture devices. A lot less messy than, say, an iron maiden. You know how nasty iron maidens make victims look? And the blood and the repercussions of knowing that you broke one of God's rules, which, coincidentally, is also one of Mankind's rules. With suffering comes awareness and a better understanding and enjoyment of joy that could only be experienced by a severe lack of joy.

The "exorcism" seems more like an excuse. It's like if an atheist robbed a liquor store and said ,"You can't arrest me. Stealing is, um, is, um...er...part of myyyyyy.........religion. That's it. It's part of my religion. Arresting me would be discrimination as I am a religious person and not an atheist. That's it. It's part of my religion. Arrest me and I'll sue you for religious discrimination. I'm not an atheist making up a lame excuse. I'mmmm...not.....lying?" to the cops.