NationStates Jolt Archive

U.S. researchers create schizophrenic mice

CHICAGO (Reuters) - Scientists have genetically engineered mice that develop the physical and psychological characteristics of schizophrenia, U.S. researchers said on Monday.


They said the finding will help improve understanding of the disease and help develop drugs to treat it.

Current animal research on schizophrenia has relied on drugs to create the delusions, mood changes and paranoia that characterize this brain disorder.

Breeding animals that develop schizophrenia will help researchers better understand the disease, which affects about 1 percent of the world's population.

"We can use them to explore how external factors like stress or viruses may worsen symptoms," said Dr. Akira Sawa of Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine in Baltimore, Maryland, whose work appears in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

The research builds on the discovery in recent years of the DISC1 gene that sharply increases the risk of schizophrenia.

When these genetically altered mice matured, they showed increased agitation in open spaces and had more trouble finding hidden food than healthy mice and less interest in swimming.

The researchers believe these symptoms parallel the hyperactivity, impaired sense of smell and apathy found in humans with schizophrenia.

Scans of their brains also revealed changes in structure that resemble those in humans with the disease.

The schizophrenic mice had milder cases than humans. Sawa and colleagues think that may be because more than one gene is needed to trigger the disease.

"However, this mouse model will help us fill many gaps in schizophrenia research," he said in a statement.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070730/us_nm/schizophrenia_mice_dc;_ylt=AlakgAp04Uej0ocBTJUedtIXIr0F


Is anyone else hearing the theme from the movie Ben right about now?

Seriously, mice are already too clever by half. Do we really want to add crazy to the mix? Thoughts? Is it just research, or should we prepare to greet our new insane rodent overlords?

On a personal note, according to the article, schizophrenia affects about 1% of the world's population. The incidence among women I've dated is considerably higher.

have they tried getting them to smoke weed?

These scientists deserve to die.

See! It's Proven. It's Science that drives people nuts! :p :D

These scientists deserve to die.

You caught me.

These scientists deserve to die.

Why? They're just mice.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070730/us_nm/schizophrenia_mice_dc;_ylt=AlakgAp04Uej0ocBTJUedtIXIr0F


Is anyone else hearing the theme from the movie Ben right about now?

Seriously, mice are already too clever by half. Do we really want to add crazy to the mix? Thoughts? Is it just research, or should we prepare to greet our new insane rodent overlords?

On a personal note, according to the article, schizophrenia affects about 1% of the world's population. The incidence among women I've dated is considerably higher.

I, for one, welcome our new insane rodent overlords.

These scientists deserve to die.
I agree. Oh wait, no I don't. Yes... I do... OR DO I?

Why? They're just mice.

The life of a mouse is worth more then that of a human.

The life of a mouse is worth more then that of a human.
Are you in the ALF or something?

Blooooody hell...

Is it now? I've heard differently. Course, I'm talking about the mice we bioengineer and clone in labs, not our new insane rodent overlords, which I by the way welcome as well.

When these genetically altered mice matured, they showed increased agitation in open spaces and had more trouble finding hidden food than healthy mice and less interest in swimming.

I'm sure scientists know what they're doing but:

A: Do schizophrenics not enjoy swimming as a rule?
B: Are mice normally avid swimmers?
C: Why swimming?

Is the journalist is just picking out from a list of ailments, it just struck me as odd.

Pinky and the Brain,... One is a genius, the other's insane

sweet i want one

science has nothing to do with scientist creating schizophrenic mice. These mice are nature's way of telling us insanity is very real... and contagious... and if you don't watch out... you could be next...:eek:

They're Pinky and The Brain
Yes, Pinky and The Brain
One is a genius
The other's insane.
They're laboratory mice
Their genes have been spliced
They're dinky
They're Pinky and The Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain
Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain
Brain.

Before each night is done
Their plan will be unfurled
By the dawning of the sun
They'll take over the world.

They're Pinky and The Brain
Yes, Pinky and The Brain
Their twilight campaign
Is easy to explain.
To prove their mousey worth
They'll overthrow the Earth
They're dinky
They're Pinky and The Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain
Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain
Narf!

The life of a mouse is worth more then that of a human.

According to my local petshop, the life of a mouse is worth about $0.35. :p Or something like 15p, in British money, I think. ;)

Anyway, if it helps people, I'm for it.

Edit for accuracy. :)

Scientists use mice to understand human minds. In other news, water is wet, the sun shines, fire burns, and plants grow.

What'll be interesting is if they actually find something useful, like a cure... albeit, the bit about how it's probably multiple genes is interesting.

You guys realize these mice are just conducting frighteningly subtle experiments on us, right?

They're Pinky and The Brain
Yes, Pinky and The Brain
One is a genius
The other's insane.
They're laboratory mice
Their genes have been spliced
They're dinky
They're Pinky and The Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain
Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain
Brain.

Before each night is done
Their plan will be unfurled
By the dawning of the sun
They'll take over the world.

They're Pinky and The Brain
Yes, Pinky and The Brain
Their twilight campaign
Is easy to explain.
To prove their mousey worth
They'll overthrow the Earth
They're dinky
They're Pinky and The Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain
Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain
Narf!

Now, if scientists can just implant a schizophrenic mouse with Orson Welles's voice, we'll be all set. :p

You guys realize these mice are just conducting frighteningly subtle experiments on us, right?

Takes the term "martyr to science" to a *whole* new level. :p

You guys realize these mice are just conducting frighteningly subtle experiments on us, right?

+5 points for the Hitchhiker's Guide reference.

How many schizophrenic mice must a man study before he believes he's learned something?

How many schizophrenic mice must a man study before he believes he's learned something?

We'll find out soon enough, I'm guessing. :p If they can cure schizophrenia, it'd be a real feat, but I'd believe it's possible.

Now, if scientists can just implant a schizophrenic mouse with Orson Welles's voice, we'll be all set. :p

That would be AWESOME! :D

That would be AWESOME! :D

I think it's true in general that we need more small animals with voices in the basso profondo range. :p

I think it's true in general that we need more small animals with voices in the basso profondo range. :p

I could die happy if we had a mouse that sounded like Barry White. *nods*

Why? They're just mice.
Why not experiment on children instead? They're just children..


Come on guys "They're just <insert animal>.." is such a grotesque and morally indefensible argument.

Why not experiment on children instead? They're just children..


Come on guys "They're just <insert animal>.." is such a grotesque and morally indefensible argument.


They are of an inferior race ... Mwahaha.

Why not experiment on children instead? They're just children..


Come on guys "They're just <insert animal>.." is such a grotesque and morally indefensible argument.

No, but you see, they are just mice. There are millions(perhaps billions) of them on this planet, testing on two won't make a difference. And mice are to stupid to realize they are being tested on. And I will not be some soft ass "lets not harm anything" animal rights protester who thinks about animals before other human beings.

There are millions(perhaps billions) of them on this planet

This statement, perhaps, is best done without.

No, but you see, they are just mice. There are millions(perhaps billions) of them on this planet, testing on two won't make a difference. And mice are to stupid to realize they are being tested on. And I will not be some soft ass "lets not harm anything" animal rights protester who thinks about animals before other human beings.
"soft ass"? Just grow up you bonehead.

There's billions of humans on this planet.. why not test on some of them..? It won't make any difference will it?

Why the fuck would I instinctively think about human beings before animals apart from my own family and friends? I don't see any argument for further prospering the human race at the cost of animals.. especially cosnidering how much harm humans have done to this planet and the other species that live on it.

I don't see any argument for further prospering the human race at the cost of animals.
Now, wait. Don't see or don't want to see? I wanna know before I embark on some fruitless quest here.

"soft ass"? Just grow up you bonehead.

There's billions of humans on this planet.. why not test on some of them..? It won't make any difference will it?

Why the fuck would I instinctively think about human beings before animals apart from my own family and friends? I don't see any argument for further prospering the human race at the cost of animals.. especially cosnidering how much harm humans have done to this planet and the other species that live on it.So you would you rather human beings suffered from schizophrenia, or many other diseases. Than a few rats suffering in a lab? Think how many diseases would still be prevalent in our society if we didn’t test on animals. Its you who needs to “grow up” and realise that by following your ideology many more people would have died in the last 100/200 years than I care to think of.

So you would you rather human beings suffered from schizophrenia, or many other diseases. Than a few rats suffering in a lab? Think how many diseases would still be prevalent in our society if we didn’t test on animals. Its you who needs to “grow up” and realise that by following your ideology many more people would have died in the last 100/200 years than I care to think of.
Many more people..? So what? Creating suffering to save others from suffering.. what a ridiculous thing to do.

It's not only rats who get experimented on (although they have a right to a life free of suffering too).. they do all sorts of nasty shit to all kids of animals.

Sure, research to help cure diseases but don't experiment on animals in the process. And I need to grow up? If being childish is not wanting animals used for medical research which amounts to torture a lot of the time.. I'll stay childish thanks.

Many more people..? So what? Creating suffering to save others from suffering.. what a ridiculous thing to do.

It's not only rats who get experimented on (although they have a right to a life free of suffering too).. they do all sorts of nasty shit to all kids of animals.

Sure, research to help cure diseases but don't experiment on animals in the process. And I need to grow up? If being childish is not wanting animals used for medical research which amounts to torture a lot of the time.. I'll stay childish thanks.

Yet when you're sick I'm sure you're not checking each medication to ensure animal testing hasn't been involved - easy to be principled when it doesn't matter to you.

"soft ass"? Just grow up you bonehead.

There's billions of humans on this planet.. why not test on some of them..? It won't make any difference will it?

Why the fuck would I instinctively think about human beings before animals apart from my own family and friends? I don't see any argument for further prospering the human race at the cost of animals.. especially cosnidering how much harm humans have done to this planet and the other species that live on it.

They are RATS! God, I am so tired of tree hugging idiots trying to equate the worth of a human being to that of a rat.

And if we don't experiment on animals, what are we going to experiment on? The answer is: Humans. I'd rather a mindless beast be experimented on then a human being.

Creating suffering to save others from suffering.. what a ridiculous thing to do.

Sooo, starving to death, how's that working out for you?

The first time in months I start a thread, and it disolves into a flame war in less than forty posts. I'm going to have this shut down.

The first time in months I start a thread, and it disolves into a flame war in less than forty posts. I'm going to have this shut down.

Flame war? Geez, this is nothing, leave it.

Why not experiment on children instead? They're just children..


Come on guys "They're just <insert animal>.." is such a grotesque and morally indefensible argument.
Humans are sentient. Mice are not. That simple.

No, but you see, they are just mice. There are millions(perhaps billions) of them on this planet, testing on two won't make a difference. And mice are to stupid to realize they are being tested on. And I will not be some soft ass "lets not harm anything" animal rights protester who thinks about animals before other human beings.

bad argument...there are 6 billion humans. The difference, again, is that those 6 billion humans are sentient.

If being childish is not wanting animals used for medical research which amounts to torture a lot of the time.. I'll stay childish thanks.

Your loss.

Many more people..? So what? Creating suffering to save others from suffering.. what a ridiculous thing to do.

Do you honestly think that the natural world is a happy, nice place free from suffering? Richard Dawkins describes the natural world quite aptly:

"The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive; others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear; others are being slowly devoured from within by rasping parasites; thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst and disease. It must be so. If there is ever a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored."

Humans are the only species to date capable of breaking this cycle, and if the cost comes at lesser animals, so be it. Nature is hell compared to the world our minds and our use of the environment has built for our use.

It's not only rats who get experimented on (although they have a right to a life free of suffering too).. they do all sorts of nasty shit to all kids of animals.

Animals don't have a right to anything. We use them for our own purposes, and we are the ones that determine what kinds of rights they have, if at all. The very concept of a "right" is entirely human in origin, and without us, there would be no such thing to give to animals. Animals would still suffer and die, and be ripped to shreds by predators, starve and be consumed and destroyed from within by diseases and parasites if we weren't here.

Nature doesn't care about "rights"...only human beings care about rights and only human beings can comprehend them. It is entirely up to us how we use the resources of the natural world and it is entirely up to us whether or not animals deserve any kind of rights or treatment.

Sure, research to help cure diseases but don't experiment on animals in the process. And I need to grow up? If being childish is not wanting animals used for medical research which amounts to torture a lot of the time.. I'll stay childish thanks.

And how do you do that? We're still 20 years away from being able to use human-brain computer simulations on an economic scale, so from now until 2027 or so animal testing is the only realistic way of investigating these medical problems. How many people need to suffer and die from neurological and psychological diseases so that mice can live their lives being hunted and eaten by predators rather than being used in the labs to save and improve human lives?

As opposed to what? Allowing humans to suffer and die? That's more humane? Humans are more important than any other thing that ever has or will exist on this planet, and it is our responsibility as a society and as a species to use all of the tools at our disposal to ensure the well-being of humans comes first.

They're not 'mindless' you primitive idiot. Why don't we experiment on you? You seem to have extremely limited intelligence.


They are less intelligent then ants apparently, do you wet your self everytime someone steps on an ant?



Mice feel pain.

Who gives a shit?


Why don't we experiment on severely mentally disabled people who don't know wtf is going on then? (I don't advocate that).


Human rights extend to all forms of humans.

Ooh, I think this is wonderful! Just think, they'll be able to cure schizophrenia soon!


NO! This is awful! They'll try and kill us!

Its a good thing, relax.

No it isn't!

Yes it is.

No it isn't!

Ooh, I think this is wonderful! Just think, they'll be able to cure schizophrenia soon!


NO! This is awful! They'll try and kill us!

Its a good thing, relax.

No it isn't!

Yes it is.

No it isn't!

http://www.mwscomp.com/mpfc/argument.jpg

They are RATS! God, I am so tired of tree hugging idiots trying to equate the worth of a human being to that of a rat.

And if we don't experiment on animals, what are we going to experiment on? The answer is: Humans. I'd rather a mindless beast be experimented on then a human being.
They're not 'mindless' you primitive idiot. Why don't we experiment on you? You seem to have extremely limited intelligence.


We don't need to experiment on anything. Invest more money in computer software to do the job, and get human volunteers.


Humans are sentient. Mice are not. That simple.
Mice feel pain. Don't pretend you know what goes on in a mouses ead either.. see these arguments are just a joke. Why don't we experiment on severely mentally disabled people who don't know wtf is going on then? (I don't advocate that).

Sooo, starving to death, how's that working out for you?
Please elaborate?

Do you honestly think that the natural world is a happy, nice place free from suffering? Richard Dawkins describes the natural world quite aptly:
What has that got to do with anything that's been said?

Humans are the only species to date capable of breaking this cycle, and if the cost comes at lesser animals, so be it. Nature is hell compared to the world our minds and our use of the environment has built for our use.
Humans are fucking useless. They won't break any cycle.. open your eyes. We are destroying the planet.

Animals don't have a right to anything. We use them for our own purposes, and we are the ones that determine what kinds of rights they have, if at all. The very concept of a "right" is entirely human in origin, and without us, there would be no such thing to give to animals. Animals would still suffer and die, and be ripped to shreds by predators, starve and be consumed and destroyed from within by diseases and parasites if we weren't here.
You're right 'we' do use them for our own purposes.. and it's wrong. I'm aware animals suffer in the natural world.. what I meant was suffering at the hands of humans. Surely that was obvious?

Nature doesn't care about "rights"...only human beings care about rights and only human beings can comprehend them. It is entirely up to us how we use the resources of the natural world and it is entirely up to us whether or not animals deserve any kind of rights or treatment.
What's your point? I know the power is with humans. We have the power to not cause unnecessary suffering to animals. But we do.


As opposed to what? Allowing humans to suffer and die? That's more humane? Humans are more important than any other thing that ever has or will exist on this planet, and it is our responsibility as a society and as a species to use all of the tools at our disposal to ensure the well-being of humans comes first.
Yes allowing humans to die is more humane and allowing them to live a bit longer at the expense of some tortured animals. Get a clue.. humans are the worst thing that has ever happened to this planet. You personally want to look after your own kind at the expense of others, simply because they are your own kind. That's a common perception. That doesn't make it right.


I think some of you people grossly overestimate how much experimenting on animals actually helps find cures and treatments.


Who gives a shit?
A lot of people you nasty bag of shit.

We don't need to experiment on anything. Invest more money in computer software to do the job, and get human volunteers.


Humans only volunteer now because the drugs they test have been found safe in animals and have gone through various tests to minimise the risk to humans. I think you'd find it very difficult to find volunteers without these safety precautions

A lot of people you nasty bag of shit.

Wow such a mature debate style you've perfected

:rolleyes:

A lot of people you nasty bag of shit.

Well they must be in a state of constant depression, y'know with all those animals which are slaughtered for food every day. Ahh to be so naive.

Come on guys "They're just <insert animal>.." is such a grotesque and morally indefensible argument.
Either you're a vegan that feeds the rats that visit your house and refusses to kill the lice that infect your hair because the life of animals is worth more then that of a human. Or you're a doctor Mengele that advocates human experimentation.

What'll be interesting is if they actually find something useful, like a cure... albeit, the bit about how it's probably multiple genes is interesting.
The problem with diseases you don't have a model for is that you can't actually test if compound X actually works without going directly to the patient population and that is morally indefencible. BTW Safety testing is also something you don't want to do on humans.

What has that got to do with anything that's been said?

You say that causing mice to suffer is wrong, yet it happens all the time in the natural world with absolutely zero benefit beyond satiating a predator's hunger.

Humans are fucking useless. They won't break any cycle.. open your eyes. We are destroying the planet.

Are we useless? All the things we've built, the traditions and cultures, the world's foods and drinks, the exploration of space, all the scientific and technological discoveries made, the great works of literature, music and art...useless?

And destroying the planet is wrong, nobody can argue that. But we can also repair as much of the damage as possible if we put the effort in to doing so.

You're right 'we' do use them for our own purposes.. and it's wrong. I'm aware animals suffer in the natural world.. what I meant was suffering at the hands of humans. Surely that was obvious?

So, it's perfectly okay for animals to suffer and die at the hands of other animals in the natural world, but if humans cause them suffering in order to cure a devastating mental illness, it's wrong?

That makes absolutely zero sense.

What's your point? I know the power is with humans. We have the power to not cause unnecessary suffering to animals. But we do.

Define unnecessary. Schizophrenia is a devastating mental illness that causes years, even a lifetime of suffering if left untreated and can severe

Yes allowing humans to die is more humane and allowing them to live a bit longer at the expense of some tortured animals. Get a clue.. humans are the worst thing that has ever happened to this planet. You personally want to look after your own kind at the expense of others, simply because they are your own kind. That's a common perception. That doesn't make it right.

Who made you the arbiter of whether humans should live or die and for how long? Frankly, I'm appalled that anyone would be willing to carelessly throw away a human life in order to save an animal that would've ended up tortured and killed by a predator if it weren't experimented on. And, for that matter, do you even know anything about schizophrenia? Maybe if you understood the kind of suffering that these conditions pose, you wouldn't be so willing to allow humans to suffer and die so that mice could have the pleasure of being devoured by natural predators rather than used to cure diseases.

Now, tell me, if you were diagnosed with a terminal illness, would you want to suffer and die so that mice could avoid being used in experimental treatments for your disease? I highly doubt it.

And not only that, but all animals look after their own kind at the expense of others...that's how they stay alive and it's how evolution works. Humans are no different in that respect, and the only reason we are where we are is because we were smart enough to climb to the top and stay there.

I think some of you people grossly overestimate how much experimenting on animals actually helps find cures and treatments.

I see animal models and testing used in every single revolutionary drug and medical discovery made in recent history...looks pretty good to me. No medical firm or research lab would ever start out with a human model to test its theories...all of them start with computer models and animal testing, and go from there.

Animal testing is necessary to see if the drugs and treatments are safe for humans.

Humans only volunteer now because the drugs they test have been found safe in animals and have gone through various tests to minimise the risk to humans. I think you'd find it very difficult to find volunteers without these safety precautions

there is not currently a way to get enough humans to stay alive for the amount of time it would take to test drugs......one of the big important tests of drugs is the long term effects, and since mice are born, grow and die very quickly and are cheap and such, you can test types of things like that on them quickly and easily, not so much birthing thousands of humans and waiting for them to grow up to look for side effects besides to have a controlled experiment you would end up raising babies in cages.

there is not currently a way to get enough humans to stay alive for the amount of time it would take to test drugs......one of the big important tests of drugs is the long term effects, and since mice are born, grow and die very quickly and are cheap and such, you can test types of things like that on them quickly and easily, not so much birthing thousands of humans and waiting for them to grow up to look for side effects besides to have a controlled experiment you would end up raising babies in cages.

That's dead on. It's also true that the mammalian brains and bodily functions are all extremely similar; the main difference is scale rather than any unique parts (Bottle would definitely be able to go far more in depth about the brain than I can) and so tests on mouse brains can be replicated at a human scale quite easily, relatively speaking (brains are, of course, marvelously complex).

As a result, the fact that mice age so quickly is helpful because it enables us to see the underlying causes and develop treatments that can then be used on higher-level mammals and humans successfully. These shorter lifespans are also why the aging-reversal contest is called the Methuselah Mouse Prize...mice are the best way to observe the causes and mechanisms of aging and age-related diseases, and since they are so similar to humans, the advances and treatments are generally scalable to the human level with little (relatively speaking) difficulty.

As you might be able to see, neuroscience, biotechnology and medicine are passions of mine. ;)

They are less intelligent then ants apparently, do you wet your self everytime someone steps on an ant?Not necessarily.


Who gives a shit?
Pretty sure the mice do, and other creatures who exhibit sy- and e-mpathy.
There's studies on that, strangely enough.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070730/us_nm/schizophrenia_mice_dc;_ylt=AlakgAp04Uej0ocBTJUedtIXIr0F


Is anyone else hearing the theme from the movie Ben right about now?

Seriously, mice are already too clever by half. Do we really want to add crazy to the mix? Thoughts? Is it just research, or should we prepare to greet our new insane rodent overlords?

On a personal note, according to the article, schizophrenia affects about 1% of the world's population. The incidence among women I've dated is considerably higher.

I think scientists just sit around, drawing shit out of a hat, to see what to do to mice.

its Identity and Ben in one. crazy murderers. no hope for mankind.

plus, either the mouse dies in a mouse trap or it helps scientists make progress in our mental health

I think scientists just sit around, drawing shit out of a hat, to see what to do to mice.

Well, what else to do when Blue Gene Q is busy calculating 10,000 years worth of data? That'll take two hours or so...plenty of time for a quick game or two.

You say that causing mice to suffer is wrong, yet it happens all the time in the natural world with absolutely zero benefit beyond satiating a predator's hunger.

Diseases from the natural world cause humans to suffer. Therefore, causing humans to suffer is perfectly okay.

Really?

Pfft, now do I not only have smart mice sometimes getting stuck under my fridge and then dying...

I also got crazy ones too :-(

I wonder what one would make of a cat, though...seriously...

Pfft, now do I not only have smart mice sometimes getting stuck under my fridge and then dying...

I also got crazy ones too :-(

I wonder what one would make of a cat, though...seriously...

I'd imagine a crazy mouse is probably worried about the worldwide feline conspiracy.

You say that causing mice to suffer is wrong, yet it happens all the time in the natural world with absolutely zero benefit beyond satiating a predator's hunger.
Mice suffer all the time in the natural world? I think not.. the occasionally predator will kill them but they won't be kept alive for fuckknows how long while all kinds of crap if prodded at them, sprayed in their eyes.. injected in to the head.

Are we useless? All the things we've built, the traditions and cultures, the world's foods and drinks, the exploration of space, all the scientific and technological discoveries made, the great works of literature, music and art...useless?

And destroying the planet is wrong, nobody can argue that. But we can also repair as much of the damage as possible if we put the effort in to doing so.
When have humans ever manage to collectively put effort in and save something? They've been saying they're going to eradicate poverty in Africa for 25 years and it's still no different. The major governments don't care about anything but economic prosperity at the cost of everything else. Especially China who's opening at least one coal-fired power station every week regardless of its environmental consequences.


So, it's perfectly okay for animals to suffer and die at the hands of other animals in the natural world, but if humans cause them suffering in order to cure a devastating mental illness, it's wrong?

That makes absolutely zero sense.
Rofl. Animals don't know any different. The lion isn't going to suddenly decide to have a nice salad and become vegetarian. They're designed to be predators. The natural world is just that.. natural. Humans on the other hand are intelligent enough to change their ways and not cause unnecessary suffering to animals. No one needs to eat meat.. in fact it's bad for you in most cases. Yet we do.. we farm and breed intelligent animals just to then kill them.


Define unnecessary. Schizophrenia is a devastating mental illness that causes years, even a lifetime of suffering if left untreated and can severe
Boohoo.. am I meant to care? Being tortured for what could be years is also devastating.



Who made you the arbiter of whether humans should live or die and for how long? Frankly, I'm appalled that anyone would be willing to carelessly throw away a human life in order to save an animal that would've ended up tortured and killed by a predator if it weren't experimented on. And, for that matter, do you even know anything about schizophrenia? Maybe if you understood the kind of suffering that these conditions pose, you wouldn't be so willing to allow humans to suffer and die so that mice could have the pleasure of being devoured by natural predators rather than used to cure diseases.Yes because every mouse in the world gets devoured by a predator.. Your arguments are just ridiculous. "animals suffer in the wild so it's okay for humans to capture them and torture them k?"

No people are directly saved by not torturing animals. Get that out of your head. I'm appalled by people like you who agree with capturing and torturing animals for human benefit.
Now, tell me, if you were diagnosed with a terminal illness, would you want to suffer and die so that mice could avoid being used in experimental treatments for your disease? I highly doubt it.
Mice aren't the only animals used in labs. They perform brain experiments on primates that have more intelligence than toddlers. These are evil emotionless people we're talking about here. And If I was diagnosed with a terminal illness I wouldn't want drugs used on me that they made clear were used in animal experiments. I'd preferably for go alternative treatments other than orthodox methods.

And not only that, but all animals look after their own kind at the expense of others...that's how they stay alive and it's how evolution works. Humans are no different in that respect, and the only reason we are where we are is because we were smart enough to climb to the top and stay there.
Animals don't go around needlessly capturing and torturing other animals for research.

I see animal models and testing used in every single revolutionary drug and medical discovery made in recent history...looks pretty good to me. No medical firm or research lab would ever start out with a human model to test its theories...all of them start with computer models and animal testing, and go from there.

Animal testing is necessary to see if the drugs and treatments are safe for humans.
You see them used.. but is it a fact they had to be used? Doubt that. How does one test drugs on an animal and come to the conclusion that they're safe for humans? Recently some patients in the UK who volunteered to test some drugs that were previously tested on animals, were taken to hospital severely ill.

Not that I care whether animal testing works or not. It's immorally wrong.


Either you're a vegan that feeds the rats that visit your house and refusses to kill the lice that infect your hair because the life of animals is worth more then that of a human. Or you're a doctor Mengele that advocates human experimentation.
Yes I am a vegan.. you have head lice and live in a rat infested house? Sucks to be you. Seriously what a bizarre question. No I don't feed them.. not that I've ever seen any.. I lead a regular life, I'm no tree hugger.

Mice suffer all the time in the natural world? I think not.. the occasionally predator will kill them but they won't be kept alive for fuckknows how long while all kinds of crap if prodded at them, sprayed in their eyes.. injected in to the head.

Don't snakes do that swallowing whole bit?

Mice suffer all the time in the natural world? I think not.. the occasionally predator will kill them but they won't be kept alive for fuckknows how long while all kinds of crap if prodded at them, sprayed in their eyes.. injected in to the head.

Clearly you haven't seen a cat at work, torture is their forte - you may have seen killer whales playing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMyiMnQy9d4) tennis with seals however - despite this, it does, as you say, have nothing to do with experimenting on animals.

When have humans ever manage to collectively put effort in and save something?

See here, your pessimism goes a long way to supporting the theory that you don't love animals, you hate humans - humans are capable of hugely altruistic acts way beyond any animal - again, this has nothing to do with experimenting

Rofl. Animals don't know any different. The lion isn't going to suddenly decide to have a nice salad and become vegetarian. They're designed to be predators. The natural world is just that.. natural. Humans on the other hand are intelligent enough to change their ways and not cause unnecessary suffering to animals. No one needs to eat meat.. in fact it's bad for you in most cases. Yet we do.. we farm and breed intelligent animals just to then kill them.

Well I suppose that ultimately there's no real case for eating animals but meat is a very efficient form of nutrition - still, point conceded

Boohoo.. am I meant to care? Being tortured for what could be years is also devastating.

Again, do you love animals or hate humans?

Mice aren't the only animals used in labs. They perform brain experiments on primates that have more intelligence than toddlers. These are evil emotionless people we're talking about here. And If I was diagnosed with a terminal illness I wouldn't want drugs used on me that they made clear were used in animal experiments. I'd preferably for go alternative treatments other than orthodox methods.

I strongly doubt it - and less so if it's a loved one as opposed to yourself - I'm sure you'll argue that begads you will but as I said in an earlier post, it's easy to have principles when it doesn't matter to you.

Animals don't go around needlessly capturing and torturing other animals for research.

That's as stupid as the 'animals suffer so who cares' argument - animals are not intelligent enough and if they were, I can pretty much guarantee they would.

You see them used.. but is it a fact they had to be used? Doubt that. How does one test drugs on an animal and come to the conclusion that they're safe for humans? Recently some patients in the UK who volunteered to test some drugs that were previously tested on animals, were taken to hospital severely ill.

Not understanding research is no excuse for blasting it.

Not that I care whether animal testing works or not. It's immorally wrong.

Morally wrong is what you mean - the fact is that medicine saves lives and if that's at the expense of animals then so be it - some people are for progress.

EDIT A: By 'you' I mean those who put animal rights above human right in general
EDIT B: By 'progress' I mean what's available, when we have a better alternative, which we don't, I'd happily not use animals.

Don't snakes do that swallowing whole bit?

All the people here have expressed concern over this experiment. However, you will find that the unwashed randomly picked human is apathetic to this circumstance.

To engage their minds as well as our own, on either side of the argument, nothing promising will happen until we invent the mouse big enough or the person small enough to have intercourse with the mouse. This will bring the argument to the forefront.

I'd imagine a crazy mouse is probably worried about the worldwide feline conspiracy.

...I for one blame the feline race for 9/11...

And If I was diagnosed with a terminal illness I wouldn't want drugs used on me that they made clear were used in animal experiments. I'd preferably for go alternative treatments other than orthodox methods.

I suppose even when you aren't terminally ill you check every single medication you take to make sure it was never tested on animals? even if it's not currently being tested on animals, do you go back and make sure it never ever was?

The life of a mouse is worth more then that of a human.

And obviously your mentally retarded for believing so, so I guess over yours - yes it is.

And obviously your mentally retarded for believing so, so I guess over yours - yes it is.

hmm.....yeah. Because you are new, you might wanna check out this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=410573) link....

They're not 'mindless' you primitive idiot. Why don't we experiment on you? You seem to have extremely limited intelligence. you might want to stop with the flaming.



Mice feel pain. Don't pretend you know what goes on in a mouses ead either.. see these arguments are just a joke. Why don't we experiment on severely mentally disabled people who don't know wtf is going on then? (I don't advocate that).[/QUOTE]so I can't claim that mice aren't sentient (which we have lots of evidence towards, such as not recognizing themselves in mirrors, having object permanence, etc), but you can claim to know what goes on in their heads?
Even severely mentally disabled people have sentience. They know they exist.

And obviously your mentally retarded for believing so, so I guess over yours - yes it is.
a) If you want to call someone mentally retarded, at least use good English. It should be "you're", not "your"
b) Don't call someone mentally retarded on here.

While I find animal experimentation repulsive, I admit it's sometimes necessary. Many illnesses have no other reasonable way to be studied. But some of the experiments are unecessarily cruel, repetitive, outdated, inefficient or just unecessary.

And if we can claim humans to have fundamental inalienable rights, I don't see why animals wouldn't too. Though each species has a right to survive, we can hardly be blamed for favoring own own species more than a lion can. Just don't forget that our "superiority" gives the obligation to be responsible stewards.

Many more people..? So what? Creating suffering to save others from suffering.. what a ridiculous thing to do.

Suffering in these experiments is modulated as much as possible.

Besides, guess what? Animals have benefited from medical research as well! Where do you think veterinary medicine comes from?

Sure, research to help cure diseases but don't experiment on animals in the process.

One cannot experiment on biology without biological systems to do it in.

If being childish is not wanting animals used for medical research which amounts to torture a lot of the time.. I'll stay childish thanks.

Amounts to torture? It really is amazing how many people will argue so strongly about something when they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.


Yet when you're sick I'm sure you're not checking each medication to ensure animal testing hasn't been involved - easy to be principled when it doesn't matter to you.

Of course not. If someone did that, they'd have to refuse all medical treatment. They wouldn't even be able to use band-aids.

I'm sure scientists know what they're doing but:

A: Do schizophrenics not enjoy swimming as a rule?
B: Are mice normally avid swimmers?
C: Why swimming?

Is the journalist is just picking out from a list of ailments, it just struck me as odd.

The forced swim test is apparently a common one used to parallel "behavioral despair". They put the mice in water, and then see how long it takes them to start swimming. Mice with the knockout took longer to stop swimming and anti-depressant drugs helped reverse the effect.

I'd have to go back to the original paper they cite to know why that particular test was developed, but this is apparently what it is used for.

We don't need to experiment on anything. Invest more money in computer software to do the job, and get human volunteers.

It's so cute when people are this naive!

I'll tell you what. You design a computer model that accurately models the brain and the effects that drugs will have on it. Do this without taking apart brains and studying them. GO!

When you die completely unsuccessful, we'll still be doing the experiments that actually give us that information.

Mice suffer all the time in the natural world? I think not.. the occasionally predator will kill them but they won't be kept alive for fuckknows how long while all kinds of crap if prodded at them, sprayed in their eyes.. injected in to the head.

I don't know what you think people do in medical research labs, but this isn't it. The mice here have to be kept on an absolutely regular light-dark cycle. Screw with that cycle and cause them distress unless it is absolutely necessary? You get in trouble. If a test must be performed that can cause pain, you must use a pain reliever, unless you can show that it would be detrimental to the experiment - and then your experiment better be damn important.

Mice aren't the only animals used in labs. They perform brain experiments on primates that have more intelligence than toddlers. These are evil emotionless people we're talking about here.

Ah yes. Us evil emotionless people who actually care enough to want to help others. Yeah, we're bad, bad people. :rolleyes:

And If I was diagnosed with a terminal illness I wouldn't want drugs used on me that they made clear were used in animal experiments. I'd preferably for go alternative treatments other than orthodox methods.

Every single FDA-approved medical treatment has been tested on animals and/or developed out of animal testing. If you really want to live up to this philosophy, you have to deny yourself all medical treatment. Period.

You see them used.. but is it a fact they had to be used? Doubt that. How does one test drugs on an animal and come to the conclusion that they're safe for humans?

One doesn't. But one gets a much clearer idea of what the risks are. Then one moves to humans.

Not to mention that this isn't just a matter of testing already created drugs on animals. It is about developing the drugs in the first place.

Yes I am a vegan.. you have head lice and live in a rat infested house? Sucks to be you. Seriously what a bizarre question. No I don't feed them.. not that I've ever seen any.. I lead a regular life, I'm no tree hugger.

I bet you've taken medications. HOW EVIL YOU ARE, SUPPORTING ANIMAL TESTING THAT WAY!!!

Oh no, they test drugs on animals! - mm this steak is good.

Yes I am a vegan.
5 blind monks could have deciphered that.

...I for one blame the feline race for 9/11...



Indeed...


http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/3674/osamabincatge1.png (http://imageshack.us)

Curing schitzophrenics, OK, but what about the madness that seems to affect 99% of humankind...

And obviously your mentally retarded for believing so, so I guess over yours - yes it is.

I think you should check your sarcasm meter...

Why am I getting flamed so much in this thread? If I support the tests on mice I get called a "nasty sack of shit", if I (pretend to) believe on mice rights, I get called "mentally retarded".

Maybe i'm destined to sit on the fence.

Curing schitzophrenics, OK, but what about the madness that seems to affect 99% of humankind...Strangely that's exactly what they've inflicted on the mice; they're apathetic, antisocial and can't even be arsed to find food.

About that ALF shite though, yes, animal testing is fucking obscene, but if it's the sole means of lessening the suffering of an even more complex being that happens to be even more capable of suffering, then it'd be even more horrendous not to do it.

I still love you. Although I am decidedly unlovable today, so take it fwiw.

fwiw???

*looks up*

edit: thanks smunk!

Why am I getting flamed so much in this thread? If I support the tests on mice I get called a "nasty sack of shit", if I (pretend to) believe on mice rights, I get called "mentally retarded".

Maybe i'm destined to sit on the fence.

I still love you. Although I am decidedly unlovable today, so take it fwiw.

Indeed...


http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/3674/osamabincatge1.png (http://imageshack.us)

*groan*

*groan*

do you get to name the mice you do tests on? I would name one "doom". I used to name all the animals I would dissect in high school.

do you get to name the mice you do tests on? I would name one "doom". I used to name all the animals I would dissect in high school.

I suppose I could, but I don't. I'd have to come up with lots of names. I don't necessarily test all of our mice, but I am responsible for keeping track of the ones we have and breeding them. A litter is usually 5-10 mice. Naming them all would be a pain, and then finding which one was which would be damn near impossible. =)

I did work with a lady once who I thought named the rats. But then it turned out she just called all of them Buster.

do you get to name the mice you do tests on? I would name one "doom". I used to name all the animals I would dissect in high school.

"Doom"
"Mouse Torch"
"Elastimouse"
:D

"Doom"
"Mouse Torch"
"Elastimouse"
:D

Mouse-tse-tung.:D

Mouse-tse-tung.:D

Mouse-elini! :p

Mouse-elini! :p

Pervez Mousereff

Pervez Mousereff

Mohammed Mouseaddeq

Mohammed Mouseaddeq

Mahmouse Abbad

Mahmouse Abbad

Mousebutu Sese Seko. :p

Mousebutu Sese Seko. :p

Condoleezza Mice

I think we're entering Spam territory here so...

The forced swim test is apparently a common one used to parallel "behavioral despair". They put the mice in water, and then see how long it takes them to start swimming. Mice with the knockout took longer to stop swimming and anti-depressant drugs helped reverse the effect.

I'd have to go back to the original paper they cite to know why that particular test was developed, but this is apparently what it is used for.

Is there not an easier way than dumping them in water - is it the equivalent of tapping the knee in that it tests normal reaction time?

Well, those mice are certainly not going to do well in a normal insane aslyum. They'll escape pretty easily.

Is there not an easier way than dumping them in water - is it the equivalent of tapping the knee in that it tests normal reaction time?

They aren't looking for reflexes. They are looking for signs of behavioral despair - of depression, if you will. With people, we can ask "Do you feel despair?" With mice, we can't, so we have to look for signs of that despair instead. The fact that anti-depression medication reverses the effect suggests that this is a decent parallel to what we would consider despair in human beings.

And they aren't dunking them in water. They float. So they just look for how long the mouse floats passively before actually trying to swim and get out of the water.


It's sort of like the pain test I've seen used with rats. With people, we can say, "Does your foot hurt?" and they can answer. With rats, obviously, we cannot. So we measure temperature and pressure sensitivity instead - by seeing what temperature/pressure it takes before the rat pulls its foot away. If it pulls its foot away consistently at a temperature or pressure that shouldn't even be uncomfortable, then it is most likely in pain.

They aren't looking for reflexes. They are looking for signs of behavioral despair - of depression, if you will. With people, we can ask "Do you feel despair?" With mice, we can't, so we have to look for signs of that despair instead. The fact that anti-depression medication reverses the effect suggests that this is a decent parallel to what we would consider despair in human beings.

And they aren't dunking them in water. They float. So they just look for how long the mouse floats passively before actually trying to swim and get out of the water.


It's sort of like the pain test I've seen used with rats. With people, we can say, "Does your foot hurt?" and they can answer. With rats, obviously, we cannot. So we measure temperature and pressure sensitivity instead - by seeing what temperature/pressure it takes before the rat pulls its foot away. If it pulls its foot away consistently at a temperature or pressure that shouldn't even be uncomfortable, then it is most likely in pain.

Ok, I have little problem understanding the rat pain test - I do have problems with the idea of a mouse being put in the water and thinking 'ah f**k it, what's the point of it all? I think I'll just drown'.

I never thought of mice losing the will to live in a despair type of way but I guess I'm anthropomorphizing a chemical reaction.