NationStates Jolt Archive

"Much of what's wrong with today's youth can be fixed with a year's worth of military service"

Agree?
Disagree?
Myrth?

(yes, if it sounds familiar, it is one of the ten questions they ask you when you create a nation)

Ideologically, I think it's a great idea. But, like communism, I feel that in practice it is somewhat...unrealistic. For a state like Israel, which is in a constant state of war, it is necessary and effective. But in the US, the idea went down the tubes after Vietnam. Though, this can be attributed to the unpopular draft system. Uniform mandatory service is something that has not been tried in the US, though is common in many European countries.

No. Maybe compulsory service to some effect involving the society you are in but I'm completely against compulsory military service.

No.

I can nothing say about the situation in US, but imo here in Germany the military service must remain compulsory.

Conscription is the forcible use of people against their will to support an ideal regardless of their support or opposition for that ideal.

As such, it is an abomination against the concept of individual freedom.

I can nothing say about the situation in US, but imo here in Germany the military service must remain compulsory.

Why? Seriously wondering.

Yes, absolutely.

So you would have no problem living in a country, but have a problem supporting it?

You can support a country and not support its current government. At the same exact time. While whistling. And while lifting your hands off of the handlebars.

no.

the US military doesnt need unwilling soldiers and the US budget doesnt need to finance a finishing school for the youth of america.

Conscription is the forcible use of people against their will to support an ideal regardless of their support or opposition for that ideal.

As such, it is an abomination against the concept of individual freedom.

So you would have no problem living in a country, but have a problem supporting it?

"Much of what's wrong with today's youth can be fixed with a year's worth of military service"

Agree?

I actually agree. The military did me no end of good. But it still shouldn't be compulsory.

I can nothing say about the situation in US, but imo here in Germany the military service must remain compulsory.

Appraise me of the situation. You mentioned in another thread there is some discussion about the state of German conscription (ie, compulsory military service). Is this discontent? Why should someone be forced to serve?

I disagree, what could be better than an army of people who want to be there rather than the don't want to be there

I actually agree. The military did me no end of good. But it still shouldn't be compulsory.

yeah.

i would love to be able to send my son into the army, but as he points out, it doesnt make any sense to "make a man of him" by sending him to iraq.

sigh. kids shouldnt have free will until they are 30.

So you would have no problem living in a country, but have a problem supporting it?

I DID support my country. I served two terms in the USMC.

But I did so voluntarily. Today, I can point to it as a sign of my belief in the US and it's system, and my support for it's people.

If I had been forced to serve, my service would have meant nothing. It would indicate nothing, other than my being stupid enough not to work out a way to avoid it.

If someone does not support their country, that, under any system that calls itself free, is their right. No one should ever be forced to fight for something they don't believe in.

I actually agree. The military did me no end of good. But it still shouldn't be compulsory.

Agreed. While the military helped me out immensely, I don't think it should ever be compulsory (other than to repel an actual invasion or something along those lines).

Why? Seriously wondering.

1.) Because the German public health care system would brake down, if the draft resisters (in German called "Zivis") as inexpensive work force would not longer exist.
2.) Historic reason: Germans have bad experiences with the Reichswehr in the Weimarer republic as a professional army, which turned into a state in the state.
3.) It would be quite more difficult to find volunteers for the Bundeswehr without compulsory military service, because the most ot them, who serve longer as professional soldiers in the Bundeswehr joined the army as draftees.
4.) Because of that, after the abolition of the compulsory military service, the level of the soldiers in the lower ranks would be damned lower than now.
5.) I think, I should have to do something for my country and also all the rest of them, and because just a few do that voluntarily, it must be compulsory. In Germany it doesn't mean necessarily, that you have to go to the Bundeswehr, you can also help fpr that time in (civile) hospitals, social facilities or something like that.

Hm, maybe, I forgot a reason, but I think, that's enough. :)

1.) Because the German public health care system would brake down, if the draft resisters (in German called "Zivis") as inexpensive work force would not longer exist.
2.) Historic reason: Germans have bad experiences with the Reichswehr in the Weimarer republic as a professional army, which turned into a state in the state.
3.) It would be quite more difficult to find volunteers for the Bundeswehr without compulsory military service, because the most ot them, who serve longer as professional soldiers in the Bundeswehr joined the army as draftees.
4.) Because of that, after the abolition of the compulsory military service, the level of the soldiers in the lower ranks would be damned lower than now.
5.) I think, I should have to do something for my country and also all the rest of them, and because just a few do that voluntarily, it must be compulsory. In Germany it doesn't mean necessarily, that you have to go to the Bundeswehr, you can also help fpr that time in (civile) hospitals, social facilities or something like that.

Hm, maybe, I forgot a reason, but I think, that's enough. :)
Not such a bad deal, I realized when I got to point 5.

I believe that is the system in Italy, or rather was the system in Italy. Everyone had to do national service, however, you could conscientiously object and do community service instead.

I missed out on National service by about 3 days (All children born after the 1/2/86 no longer have to do national service for italy. I was born on the 4th).

Why was it discontinued?

No. Maybe compulsory service to some effect involving the society you are in but I'm completely against compulsory military service.
I believe that is the system in Italy, or rather was the system in Italy. Everyone had to do national service, however, you could conscientiously object and do community service instead.

I missed out on National service by about 3 days (All children born after the 1/2/86 no longer have to do national service for italy. I was born on the 4th).

yes for scumbags
no for me

military service? no. Mandatory 2 years of government service for the right to vote? meh. my husband thinks it's a good idea.

Compulsory military service: not cool.
Compulsory military service during a war: really not cool.

Plus there is no way Canada could afford to equip and train that much of the population. We'd be like Russia in WWI.

Not such a bad deal, I realized when I got to point 5.

If you don't want to serve in the army, you have currently to declare, that you are not able to kill a human beeing. So many people lie (playing Half Live, Counterstrike an Unreal Tournament, but crying: "I cannot touch any weapon, it's against my ethical belief!"), and I think, the choice of military or civil service in Germany must be free.

You can support a country and not support its current government. At the same exact time. While whistling. And while lifting your hands off of the handlebars.

Current governments change. Military service serves the country, not the government, no?

Current governments change. Military service serves the country, not the government, no?

Except that the government tells the army what to do…
Really the only time the army doesn't serve the government directly is during a coup.

I DID support my country. I served two terms in the USMC.

But I did so voluntarily. Today, I can point to it as a sign of my belief in the US and it's system, and my support for it's people.

If I had been forced to serve, my service would have meant nothing. It would indicate nothing, other than my being stupid enough not to work out a way to avoid it.

If someone does not support their country, that, under any system that calls itself free, is their right. No one should ever be forced to fight for something they don't believe in.

Can't argue with that.

I believe the expirence of a tough boot camp and having to do selfless things for the people around you helps you grow as a person a lot.

I don't believe in compulsory military service just because I'd hate to be going to Iraq with a bunch of people who don't want to be going there.

I do believe in atleat two years of government service though, military if you want or some kind of social programs. I also believe that you should earn your right to vote through that service.

Compulsory military service: not cool.
Compulsory military service during a war: really not cool.

Plus there is no way Canada could afford to equip and train that much of the population. We'd be like Russia in WWI.

Are you kidding? Do you realize how funny it is to see a guy in full military gear bearing an M-16 and then say something along the lines of, "There oooooover there in that mooosque, and we're gonna get those fuckers," in a really thick Canadian accent?

It's really funny stuff.

No. Maybe compulsory service to some effect involving the society you are in but I'm completely against compulsory military service.
I agree. Compulsory military service is bullshit.
Compulsory service to your country and/or community is not.

And the same goes for women as well. The excuse of "but we're the one's having the children" doesn't count anymore when more and more women decide against having kids in the first place.

Equal rights, equal responsibilities - hence, either both serve in some way or another - or nobody should have to.
So you would have no problem living in a country, but have a problem supporting it?
There are more ways to support your country than carrying a gun and willing to shoot people.
1.) Because the German public health care system would brake down, if the draft resisters (in German called "Zivis") as inexpensive work force would not longer exist.
2.) Historic reason: Germans have bad experiences with the Reichswehr in the Weimarer republic as a professional army, which turned into a state in the state.
3.) It would be quite more difficult to find volunteers for the Bundeswehr without compulsory military service, because the most ot them, who serve longer as professional soldiers in the Bundeswehr joined the army as draftees.
4.) Because of that, after the abolition of the compulsory military service, the level of the soldiers in the lower ranks would be damned lower than now.
5.) I think, I should have to do something for my country and also all the rest of them, and because just a few do that voluntarily, it must be compulsory. In Germany it doesn't mean necessarily, that you have to go to the Bundeswehr, you can also help fpr that time in (civile) hospitals, social facilities or something like that.

Hm, maybe, I forgot a reason, but I think, that's enough. :)
1) Instead of still having the draft, make civil service compulsory and let those who don't want to work in a kindergarden, hospital, the EMS, nursing home. etc. join the military.
2) And the draft installed in the Empire or the 3rd Reich made things oh so much better? I think not.
3) That's simply the case because being a professional soldier in Germany is not a high-paying job for what you'll be put through nowadays.
4) That's not necessarily a bad thing. But what's more important, maybe I should remind you that for years now, the Wehrgerechtigkeit is practically no longer in effect with only about 25% of males being drafted and 1/3rd being discharged as unfit to serve.
Those 75% don't do anything - not military service, and not civil service.
5) Yes, and whereas it used to be a real problem to be accepted as a conchie, it's more of a formality nowadays.
So, switching the system from compulsory military service to compusary civil service wouldn't be a bad thing.

If you don't want to serve in the army, you have currently to declare, that you are not able to kill a human beeing. So many people lie (playing Half Live, Counterstrike an Unreal Tournament, but crying: "I cannot touch any weapon, it's against my ethical belief!"), and I think, the choice of military or civil service in Germany must be free.

Not to nitpick much, but there's a huge difference between playing a game and killing people for real.

Yes. I think it is a good idea. There should be a system where you serve say 3-4 years in the military and then get put on a reserve list until you are of a certain age (probably 45). I think that Isreal uses this system?

Another idea is if you want benifits for example then you have to do 'x' amount of community service.

While I fundamentally object to compulsory military service as it goes against my belief in freedom of choice, I believe that if it were to exist, in order for it to be successful, everyone who serves should be given the option of which branch they serve and what kind of role they have. This way you don't have a force lacking sufficient motivation.

I think a system such as the one presented in Heinlein's Starship Troopers would be worth consideration. In the novel, the franchise is linked to government service (primarily military, although Heinlein has stated that he meant for it to be serving the government as an employee in any capacity, not necessarily as a soldier). That is, in order to vote, one must serve a term working for the government (in the main character's case, as a soldier fighting space bugs).

The novel's about politics. The movie is just Hollywood pissing on Heinlein's grave.

Hallo Landsmann! :)

I agree. Compulsory military service is bullshit.
Compulsory service to your country and/or community is not.

And the same goes for women as well. The excuse of "but we're the one's having the children" doesn't count anymore when more and more women decide against having kids in the first place.

Equal rights, equal responsibilities - hence, either both serve in some way or another - or nobody should have to.

There are more ways to support your country than carrying a gun and willing to shoot people.

I totally agree.


1) Instead of still having the draft, make civil service compulsory and let those who don't want to work in a kindergarden, hospital, the EMS, nursing home. etc. join the military.

That's what I said.


2) And the draft installed in the Empire or the 3rd Reich made things oh so much better? I think not.

No, but the isolation of the Reichswehr from the democracy was one factor, which opened the way fpr Hitler.


3) That's simply the case because being a professional soldier in Germany is not a high-paying job for what you'll be put through nowadays.
4) That's not necessarily a bad thing. But what's more important, maybe I should remind you that for years now, the Wehrgerechtigkeit is practically no longer in effect with only about 25% of males being drafted and 1/3rd being discharged as unfit to serve.
Those 75% don't do anything - not military service, and not civil service.

I know the problem, but I think, it's no reason against the Wehrdienst, just for more Wehrgerechtigkeit.


5) Yes, and whereas it used to be a real problem to be accepted as a conchie, it's more of a formality nowadays.
So, switching the system from compulsory military service to compusary civil service wouldn't be a bad thing.

I repeat: That's it what I said.

Forced recruits suck and are more or less useless in a real military situation. Let the people who want to serve their country in a military capacity do so; they're the ones with the dedication and willingness to actually make their time in to something more than an onerous burden.

If there's ever another world war, I'll enlist, but other than that I'm staying away from the army. I've got other things to do...it's just not my thing.

Not to nitpick much, but there's a huge difference between playing a game and killing people for real.

There is also a huge difference between serving in German Bundeswehr and killing people for real... :rolleyes:

No, seriously, you're right, of course, but that was just a "funny" example, in fact, I know people, who say: "I think, I can kill people for real, but I don't want to go to the Bundeswehr, so I wrote, I cannot kill people." Because of that, the choice must be free, in my opinion.

No. No-oe should be forced to die for something they disagree with.

Are you kidding? Do you realize how funny it is to see a guy in full military gear bearing an M-16 and then say something along the lines of, "There oooooover there in that mooosque, and we're gonna get those fuckers," in a really thick Canadian accent?

It's really funny stuff.

(This is for what you did to Johnny and his emergency maple syrup rations, eh!)

Yeah, but with compulsory military service, no-one would have an M-16. We'd have sticks.

I DID support my country. I served two terms in the USMC.

But I did so voluntarily. Today, I can point to it as a sign of my belief in the US and it's system, and my support for it's people.

If I had been forced to serve, my service would have meant nothing. It would indicate nothing, other than my being stupid enough not to work out a way to avoid it.

If someone does not support their country, that, under any system that calls itself free, is their right. No one should ever be forced to fight for something they don't believe in.

I must take my hat off to you Dododecapod. You spent two terms in the American Marines and have lived to tell the tale!
I was always under the impression that the only people the US army enjoyed killing more than the enemy was itself and its allies?

Just having a laugh ;-)

Good Effort

AMK
xxx

While I fundamentally object to compulsory military service as it goes against my belief in freedom of choice, I believe that if it were to exist, in order for it to be successful, everyone who serves should be given the option of which branch they serve and what kind of role they have. This way you don't have a force lacking sufficient motivation.

Implementation difficulties. You could choose the branch, fair enough. But within that, you will be put where you are most needed, or where you are best suited.

Forced recruits suck and are more or less useless in a real military situation. Let the people who want to serve their country in a military capacity do so; they're the ones with the dedication and willingness to actually make their time in to something more than an onerous burden.

If there's ever another world war, I'll enlist, but other than that I'm staying away from the army. I've got other things to do...it's just not my thing.

Forced recruits won World War II, World War I, The American Civil War, and tactically defeated the VC in Vietnam.

I respect your opinion, I'm just clarifying that first part. Personally, I favor the volunteer service. It makes a more willing and professional military, indeed, but we cannot underestimate the power of the recruit to fight.

military service? no. Mandatory 2 years of government service for the right to vote? meh. my husband thinks it's a good idea.

Service guarantees Citizenship!

Sorry, I had to. ;)

I think a system such as the one presented in Heinlein's Starship Troopers would be worth consideration. In the novel, the franchise is linked to government service (primarily military, although Heinlein has stated that he meant for it to be serving the government as an employee in any capacity, not necessarily as a soldier). That is, in order to vote, one must serve a term working for the government (in the main character's case, as a soldier fighting space bugs).

Except that in that setting, the right to vote wasn't exactly held sacrosanct. Hell, most people really didn't care and military service was just considered a way to get by 4 more years without actually having a job.


The novel's about politics. The movie is just Hollywood pissing on Heinlein's grave.

Oh yes, and guess what, they're making a third...

I'm completely against mandatory military service for many of the reasons mentioned before. The idea of forcing someone to risk their lives for a cause that they may not support is appalling, and, as a few soldiers have mentioned, your service means nothing if it's forced.

I DID support my country. I served two terms in the USMC.

But I did so voluntarily. Today, I can point to it as a sign of my belief in the US and it's system, and my support for it's people.

If I had been forced to serve, my service would have meant nothing. It would indicate nothing, other than my being stupid enough not to work out a way to avoid it.

If someone does not support their country, that, under any system that calls itself free, is their right. No one should ever be forced to fight for something they don't believe in.

Thank you for your service.

military service? no. Mandatory 2 years of government service for the right to vote? meh. my husband thinks it's a good idea.

That's because it is. One of the main complaints about "young people today" that I hear a LOT as a teacher is "apathy". There's little sense of the needs and feelings of others in them. Nothing does more to correct a self-centered sense of entitlement like helping do something for the benefit of someone other than yourself. Put down the cell phone and pick up a shovel, or a hammer, or even a pen or a desk and help other people.

The service needn't be weapons training and military service. Something more like Kiwanis/Lions/Rotary and the like. AmeriCorps. Think of how much more people who needed financial assistance for college would get out of their entire experience if they had the option to cancel a year of student loans for each year of service, whether performed before, during or after college.

I think a system such as the one presented in Heinlein's Starship Troopers would be worth consideration. In the novel, the franchise is linked to government service (primarily military, although Heinlein has stated that he meant for it to be serving the government as an employee in any capacity, not necessarily as a soldier). That is, in order to vote, one must serve a term working for the government (in the main character's case, as a soldier fighting space bugs).

The novel's about politics. The movie is just Hollywood pissing on Heinlein's grave.

Amen. Never judge a book by its movie.

Forced recruits suck and are more or less useless in a real military situation. Let the people who want to serve their country in a military capacity do so; they're the ones with the dedication and willingness to actually make their time in to something more than an onerous burden.

If there's ever another world war, I'll enlist, but other than that I'm staying away from the army. I've got other things to do...it's just not my thing.

Forced recruits suck? Perhaps when they're sent to places like Korea and Vietnam they do. But try not to say that too loud around WWII vets. Lots of soldiers went willingly to the defense of Europe and the repel of Japan, but not all of them. That seemed to work out at least fairly well.

The key then, is to only send forces to places where a clear wrong needs correction, and that correction needs to be military in nature.

as a few soldiers have mentioned, your service means nothing if it's forced.

My service meant nothing. :( Now I'm sad and go crying...

Implementation difficulties. You could choose the branch, fair enough. But within that, you will be put where you are most needed, or where you are best suited.

This is true. I considered enlisting for a while -- my brother, father and all three uncles served. Then I realized that even though I'd probably rip the ASVAB a new asshole, I'd probably be standing a post with a rifle in Iraq anyway. I'm nobody's soldier -- I'm far too used to questioning authority. Whenever I see a film that has a typical boot camp scene with the pale imitations of R. Lee Ermey in the face of some recruit, I always think the same thing. I wouldn't last a week.

He'd get in my face and bellow some question, and I wouldn't answer. When he asked me WHY ARE YOU NOT ANSWERING MY QUESTION, MAGGOT?!

I'd probably reply SIR! BECAUSE THERE IS NO RESPONSE THE PRIVATE COULD GIVE THAT WOULD NOT RESULT IN HIS ASS BEING KICKED, SIR!

This is true. I considered enlisting for a while -- my brother, father and all three uncles served. Then I realized that even though I'd probably rip the ASVAB a new asshole, I'd probably be standing a post with a rifle in Iraq anyway. I'm nobody's soldier -- I'm far too used to questioning authority. Whenever I see a film that has a typical boot camp scene with the pale imitations of R. Lee Ermey in the face of some recruit, I always think the same thing. I wouldn't last a week.

He'd get in my face and bellow some question, and I wouldn't answer. When he asked me WHY ARE YOU NOT ANSWERING MY QUESTION, MAGGOT?!

I'd probably reply SIR! BECAUSE THERE IS NO RESPONSE THE PRIVATE COULD GIVE THAT WOULD NOT RESULT IN HIS ASS BEING KICKED, SIR!


*mulls over his favourite Full Metal Jacket quote*

:D

Well I wish we had military service in England. Since we stop it in the 1950's our country has gone down hill. We have no sense of direction for the youth in England they are boared and so get up to all sorts of trouble.

*mulls over his favourite Full Metal Jacket quote*

:D

Personally, I think, uh... they don't really want to be involved in this war. You know, I mean... they sort of took away our freedom and gave it to the, to the gookers, you know. But they don't want it. They'd rather be alive than free, I guess. Poor dumb bastards.

;)

Personally, I think, uh... they don't really want to be involved in this war. You know, I mean... they sort of took away our freedom and gave it to the, to the gookers, you know. But they don't want it. They'd rather be alive than free, I guess. Poor dumb bastards.

;)

Not R. Lee Ermey, but one of the best quotes from the film.

As for me: "YOU LOOK LIKE THE KIND OF A MAN WHO WOULD FUCK ME IN THE ASS AND NOT EVEN HAVE TO COMMON COURTESY TO GIVE ME A REACH-AROUND!"

Well I wish we had military service in England. Since we stop it in the 1950's our country has gone down hill. We have no sense of direction for the youth in England they are boared and so get up to all sorts of trouble.

Boared? There are loose boars in England boaring the youth?!? Heavens!

Hallo Landsmann! :)
Moin! Grüß Dich. :)
That's what I said.(...)
I repeat: That's it what I said.
I thought you were in favor of the military draft for the beneficial side-effects it has on society supplying enough conchies to do other jobs?
I, however, would turn the whole system around and draft people for civil/social services and if they want to serve in the military, let them.
No, but the isolation of the Reichswehr from the democracy was one factor, which opened the way for Hitler.
That and the fact that most in the Reichswehr grew up in the Empire and thus were used to an authoritarian system. I can only speak for myself and my friends when I say it's different now.
I know the problem, but I think, it's no reason against the Wehrdienst, just for more Wehrgerechtigkeit.
Which is not going to happen since Germany really doesn't need such a huge standing army any more.
Switching the system to a "peace-time" mode and drafting people into civilian jobs in which they serve their country would reinstall that "draft-justness".
Forced recruits won World War II, World War I, The American Civil War, and tactically defeated the VC in Vietnam.
Uhm... forced recruits also lost WWI and WWII... so that's a poor argument to force people into the military.
I DID support my country. I served two terms in the USMC.
But I did so voluntarily. Today, I can point to it as a sign of my belief in the US and it's system, and my support for it's people.
If I had been forced to serve, my service would have meant nothing. It would indicate nothing, other than my being stupid enough not to work out a way to avoid it.
If someone does not support their country, that, under any system that calls itself free, is their right. No one should ever be forced to fight for something they don't believe in.
I too served my country in the best way I saw fit - being drafted, rejecting military service, and as a conscious objector, serving my community as a paramedic.

So, I also supported and used our German system while at the same time I knew that my service did practical good. Had I joined the military I wouldn't have done anything that I'd have considered worth my time and effort.

The need to serve was forced unto me, yes. But that doesn't take away anything from my personal choice to be trained and work in the EMS, saving quite a few lives in the meantime, rescueing and helping people in need, transporting disabled people, and working in operating rooms and the ward.

So, simply because I wasn't given a choice whether I wanted to serve or not doesn't take away anything from the meaning that my service had and has for me.

I just knew that I wouldn't have wanted to be trained to kill people - and that I wouldn't have been any good in it since I'm not convinced by it.
Service guarantees Citizenship!
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/sst_bot2b.gif
Want to know more?
I'm completely against mandatory military service for many of the reasons mentioned before. The idea of forcing someone to risk their lives for a cause that they may not support is appalling, and, as a few soldiers have mentioned, your service means nothing if it's forced.
I agree with most of what you said - but it's simply not true that service means nothing if it's forced.
It means as much as you are willing to make it mean.
And I'm still damn proud of what I have achieved during my "tour of duty". ;)

Service guarantees Citizenship!

Sorry, I had to. ;)

he loves that book.

I'm from Finland, and I wholly support our system of compulsory military service! It saved our nation once, after all.

Of course, there are always those utopianists who think military and weapons are a bad thing, but hey, there could be no civilization without weapons or war. Human beings rule this planet because of their ability to be more destructive than any other species.

Military service wouldn't be something I'd object to if Britain stayed out of other people's fights (Think Switzerland). But I would definitely object to joining with the way things are now. The current conflicts Britain's involved in have nothing to do with defending Britain and everything to do with doing America's chores. Others that we've been in recently have just been about sorting out other people's internal squabbles (Particularly the Balkans).

Moin! Grüß Dich. :)

I thought you were in favor of the military draft for the beneficial side-effects it has on society supplying enough conchies to do other jobs?
I, however, would turn the whole system around and draft people for civil/social services and if they want to serve in the military, let them.


I am in favor of a compulsory service, in which the draftees have the free choice, if they want to serve in the Bundeswehr or in the civil service. (When I served, I had very much time to think about that. :D)


I agree with most of what you said - but it's simply not true that service means nothing if it's forced.
It means as much as you are willing to make it mean.

I completly agree. :)

I'm from Finland, and I wholly support our system of compulsory military service! It saved our nation once, after all.

Of course, there are always those utopianists who think military and weapons are a bad thing, but hey, there could be no civilization without weapons or war. Human beings rule this planet because of their ability to be more destructive than any other species.

I dunno, a woman cannot clear a room of spiders or mice. But a single mouse or a spider can clear a room of women! ;)

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12918337']Military service wouldn't be something I'd object to if Britain stayed out of other people's fights (Think Switzerland). But I would definitely object to joining with the way things are now. The current conflicts Britain's involved in have nothing to do with defending Britain and everything to do with doing America's chores. Others that we've been in recently have just been about sorting out other people's internal squabbles (Particularly the Balkans).


I'm with you Chesnuts.
Firstly and foremost, I am a scottish nationalist. I want scotland out of the UK and I want us to be able to make all our own decisions.
I like England, Norn Iron and Cymru. However I just want to be independent.
Justifications aside. If some ****er landed at Dover and started to invade, I would be the first person with a gun in my hand going down to defend the UK. Whether I like it or not, it is my home at the moment and I will fight and die to defend it against undesireable enemies.
I considered the army as a career, until they went into Afghanistan and Iraq. I will fight in an army that defends its borders and gives aid to governments who ask for it, I will not fight in an army that invades to further the aims of the incumbent government. As a result I am glad there is no conscription in the UK at the moment. I do not honestly know what I would do if there was. Whether i would object or whether I would go and try to help out my brethren who are already getting beasted out there.

AMK
xxx

I believe that some form of "giving back" can be very useful for a nations youth, and some time in the Military is no different. Having thaty said, I would hate to see the day when people are forced to fight for a cause they dont believe in. As such, I think that when kids leave school, they should be given a choice between a year in the military or a years community service. It may well seem like a pain in the ass to them at the time, but they'll see the benefits in time.

Europana;12918380']I believe that some form of "giving back" can be very useful for a nations youth, and some time in the Military is no different. Having thaty said, I would hate to see the day when people are forced to fight for a cause they dont believe in. As such, I think that when kids leave school, they should be given a choice between a year in the military or a years community service. It may well seem like a pain in the ass to them at the time, but they'll see the benefits in time.

That's exactly my opinion.

"Much of what's wrong with today's youth can be fixed with a year's worth of military service."

"Our youth now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love to chatter in places of exercise. Children are tyrants, not the servants of the
household. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers." -Socrates

Unless we're being invaded by the covenant then no.

and the US budget doesnt need to finance a finishing school for the youth of america.
25% of whom couldnt move their fatasses onto the range, much less fire a weapon with any proficiency.
But I still say yes.

"Our youth now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love to chatter in places of exercise. Children are tyrants, not the servants of the
household. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers." -Socrates
Does anyone here disagree with that?

I am happy to support my nation through taxes, through political participation, through remaining informed and well-educated and through supporting my community. And, if we were attacked without provocation and my neighbors really needed me, I might just take up arms to defend them.

But I will not be conscripted, nor would I wish it on anyone. It robs me of my freedom of choice on whether I wish to continue supporting my government/the war(s) it's fighting. It forces my hand on the matter and might even force me to kill in the name of a cause I didn't believe in. That is illiberal and undemocratic, with no place in any free nation.

Does anyone here disagree with that?
Uhm, was that a question to me or all others?

Does anyone here disagree with that?

Coming from a man who was executed for corrupting the youth...

Uhm, was that a question to me or all others?
The others...I think its 100% right on.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12918337']Military service wouldn't be something I'd object to if Britain stayed out of other people's fights (Think Switzerland). But I would definitely object to joining with the way things are now. The current conflicts Britain's involved in have nothing to do with defending Britain and everything to do with doing America's chores. Others that we've been in recently have just been about sorting out other people's internal squabbles (Particularly the Balkans).
Seeing how many of the conflicts on this planet now date back to the Imperial Brits drawing borders on a map without taking into account the ethnic background of the populations, you can't discard all responsibility.

Coming from a man who was executed for corrupting the youth...
What??

"Much of what's wrong with today's youth can be fixed with a year's worth of military service"


I'm worried less about today's youth than about the military.

I think most of what is wrong with the military can be fixed with a year's compulsory service.

Spreading the risk in offensive wars of adventure like the one in iraq would create a much bigger disincentive for them. Look how much time elapsed between Vietnam and Iraq.

Also, a more representative diversity of views would find its way into the military.

That quote is fairly ironic considering Socretes was despised enough to be executed under the crime of Corrupting the Youth. He could have simply lived in exile, but his 'elderly honor' drove him to stay and commit suicide.
Oh. I thought you were reffering to me :p

What??

That quote is fairly ironic considering Socretes was despised enough to be executed under the crime of Corrupting the Youth. He could have simply lived in exile, but his 'elderly honor' drove him to stay and commit suicide.

Oh. I thought you were reffering to me :p

Guilty concious eh? :D

Guilty concious eh? :D
Just a tired one :p

Implementation difficulties. You could choose the branch, fair enough. But within that, you will be put where you are most needed, or where you are best suited.

Fair enough. I agree. I just had a moment... but I didn't think my answer through. :)

no fucking way.

Seeing how many of the conflicts on this planet now date back to the Imperial Brits drawing borders on a map without taking into account the ethnic background of the populations, you can't discard all responsibility.

I don't think that Britain owes any special responsiblity to maintaining world peace. I don't agree with our past imperialism, but it's pointless holding Britain to accord for militarism in various parts of the world that we once controlled. British people of my generation, who have had nothing to do with the Empire, should play a role in world affairs because their duty as human beings, not because of some misplaced notion of guilt for something we haven't done.

Not military service, but general service. The NHS needs more auxiliary nurses! Go give that little old biddy in ward 4 her weekly bath, biatch!

It would also provide a good opportunity to learn and the various skills that employers are always asking for.

Maybe not even that, just various voluntary schemes that are administered by local charities and/or the government. You could even have them provide room and board. But I think we already have that... it's just that the opportunities aren't advertised that well.

Would you say the same about German people of your generation and their fault for the holocaust?

Yep.

British people of my generation, who have had nothing to do with the Empire, should play a role in world affairs because their duty as human beings, not because of some misplaced notion of guilt for something we haven't done.

Would you say the same about German people of your generation and their fault for the holocaust?

Famous Last Words:

"I drank what?!" -Socrates

Compulsory service, in any form, is nothing but slavery.

I pay my tax – I owe my country no more than that…

If compulsory military service was anything like the ACF (Army Cadet Force) it would be excellent. It helps install discipline, respect and patriotism is young men and women + its great fun, as long as you obey the rules. Although for it to work the law would have to be changed to allow Drill Sergeants to properly discipline the men without their money grabbing heap of shite mothers suing the MOD.

If compulsory military service was anything like the ACF (Army Cadet Force) it would be excellent. It helps install discipline, respect and patriotism is young men and women + its great fun, as long as you obey the rules. Although for it to work the law would have to be changed to allow Drill Sergeants to properly discipline the men without their money grabbing heap of shite mothers suing the MOD.

What do you mean when you say "properly discipline"

25% of whom couldnt move their fatasses onto the range, much less fire a weapon with any proficiency.
But I still say yes.


I think that is to be lauded. In the US it seems to be the number of people who can fire the weapons who are the problem. Not those who cannot.

AMK
xxx

Seeing how many of the conflicts on this planet now date back to the Imperial Brits drawing borders on a map without taking into account the ethnic background of the populations, you can't discard all responsibility.

What the hell has that got to do with anything? Responsibility for what? National Service? Behave...

What do you mean when you say "properly discipline" have you seen "Bad Lads Army"? Lots of shouting, then a beasting (Forced to run with heavy barrels etc, meaningless exhausting/painful tasks). Then a few days or a week in army prison. That’s basically how they do it now and no-one complains, but if it was forced then things may be different.

Would you say the same about German people of your generation and their fault for the holocaust?

The current German Nation has no fault to bear for the holocaust. It was perpetrated, behind their backs by a group who are as german as Bill Clinton.
We have to create a distinction between Germans and Nazis.
Not all Nazis were German, and CERTAINLY not all Germans were Nazis.
However, if you had a family back then and the choice was between keeping quiet and surviving, and speaking out (probably with total futility) and losing all you have, probably including your life. I know fine what every single person here would choose. You can say all you want that you would go with what you think is right, but I would be amazed to find anyone here who carries that out with a gun at the head of their partner or 5 year old son.

AMK
xxx

The current German Nation has no fault to bear for the holocaust. It was perpetrated, behind their backs by a group who are as german as Bill Clinton.
We have to create a distinction between Germans and Nazis.
Not all Nazis were German, and CERTAINLY not all Germans were Nazis.
However, if you had a family back then and the choice was between keeping quiet and surviving, and speaking out (probably with total futility) and losing all you have, probably including your life. I know fine what every single person here would choose. You can say all you want that you would go with what you think is right, but I would be amazed to find anyone here who carries that out with a gun at the head of their partner or 5 year old son.

AMK
xxx

Agree with the first part, but I know that some people DID go with their beliefs. They were the Resistance.

Though if they have a gun to the head of your loved one, very few people will have the courage to go with their beliefs. It might be easier if your loved one is also in the Resistance, and would rather die than see you give in.

Anyway, regarding compulsory military service, I am hoping to immigrate to Israel and join the IDF within a few years. Israel has a good reason - they need every soldier they can get (yes, I know that if you go to yeshiva, you can get out of it - but I think that program should be dismantled).

In countries NOT surrounded by people bent on their destruction, a 'national service program' might be good. You spend 2 years working for the government. Make sure that the cops get plenty of people.

Agree with the first part, but I know that some people DID go with their beliefs. They were the Resistance.

Though if they have a gun to the head of your loved one, very few people will have the courage to go with their beliefs. It might be easier if your loved one is also in the Resistance, and would rather die than see you give in.

Anyway, regarding compulsory military service, I am hoping to immigrate to Israel and join the IDF within a few years. Israel has a good reason - they need every soldier they can get (yes, I know that if you go to yeshiva, you can get out of it - but I think that program should be dismantled).

In countries NOT surrounded by people bent on their destruction, a 'national service program' might be good. You spend 2 years working for the government. Make sure that the cops get plenty of people.


I can see why Israel has a national service programme, I personally disagree with the whole Israeli ethic, im more a sympathiser with the Palestinean issue (not their methods, but Israeli methods are hardly any more laudable) but any country surrounded by people (as Israel no doubt is) who are trying to destroy your country has a right to call on its citizens to help defend it.
The debate over who is right in that particular catch 22 is a totally different point.

AMK
xxx

any country surrounded by people (as Israel no doubt is) who are trying to destroy your country has a right to call on its citizens to help defend it.

Yeah, although at least in Israel the military is subject to the supreme court. If America ever had an enforced national service program, I suppose I'd want court protection extended to the citizen-soldiers, rather than being outside the court system.

Yeah, although at least in Israel the military is subject to the supreme court. If America ever had an enforced national service program, I suppose I'd want court protection extended to the citizen-soldiers, rather than being outside the court system.

Forgive my ignorance and this is not an antagonistic question, but what does the Supreme Court in Israel do with regards the military?

AMK
xxx

I wouldnt last a day in the military.

"PRIVATE! WHY DID YOU DISOBEY MY ORDER"

"Sir! It was a stupid order Sir!

I wouldnt last a day in the military.

"PRIVATE! WHY DID YOU DISOBEY MY ORDER"

"Sir! It was a stupid order Sir! Then what would you do, endure the harsh physical punishment? Try the silent treatment and get put in army gaol? Run away, get caught, and be put in civi prison?

Of course many army’s have different training techniques and standards. In the British army men are taught to obey orders, but act on initiative if they are given bad orders from a bad officer (which are almost non-existent in the British army, the best trained in the world) and to ALWAYS check fire in case of civilians or other troops, a lesson learnt in Northern Ireland.

Whereas American troops, from what I’m told, are ground down to have basically no personality and they will follow any order, how ever daft and who ever they kill. And because they rely heavily on their technology which is “never” wrong they don’t check their fire and often hit the wrong targets.

So basically A couple years service can be good or bad, depending on the country, training and situation.

yes. serve your country.:sniper:

i wouldn't serve in any state militia regardless of the quality of training for myself or superiors, or possibilities for personal advancement. conscription is no better than the press-gangs of old. there is nothing that could compel me to kill or maim for the government of the land i reside in.

Should military service be compulsory?

It is. I manipulated the system easily to get out of it (budget constraints at the time I mustered helped, no doubt), though because it didn't seem like something I wanted to do - I could have done civilian service, but I had university I much rather wanted to go to. Should it continue to be compulsory? I have no opinion on that, because it's not that much of an issue, really. Those who want to get out will get out or do some civil work, and those who don't mind it or enjoy will stay...

... although, those budget constraints I mentioned will probably mean that conscription will be scrapped within the coming decades. Military matters don't win votes, so their money woes will probably fall on deaf political ears. They are currently, at least.

Forgive my ignorance and this is not an antagonistic question, but what does the Supreme Court in Israel do with regards the military?

In 2004 the UN was debating whether a nation should be able to detain and hold terrorist combatants (such as at Guantanamo) indefinitely, while deciding if they are prisoners of war or common criminals. Israel's supreme court had already resolved this matter twenty years earlier. Similarly, the Supreme Court debates the legality of anything and everything the military does and imposes restrictions to warfare and security actions that it deems illegal. For example, the supreme court has required that the "security fence" be moved, twice, due to what it judged as illegalities against Palestinians.

The U.S. military is in no way held accountable by the civilian courts.

Nothing like a little slavery to fix our nation's woes, right?
:mp5:

Nah. Don't really need it here in Britain.

What the hell has that got to do with anything? Responsibility for what? National Service? Behave...
No, for the mess in the countries that make up the Middle East. For that the British are directly responsible. (Are you trying to be dense or does that just happen?)

No, for the mess in the countries that make up the Middle East. For that the British are directly responsible.
I had nothing to do with what happened then so I'm sure as hell not going to accept responsibility for it. I wasn't even alive anywhere near then. I'm no more responsible for what happened under the British Empire any more than you are for what happened in the holocaust.

I can nothing say about the situation in US, but imo here in Germany the military service must remain compulsory.
As GN already pointed out, military service isn't compulsory, and the draft for service in general doesn't even ctach half of half of the population in the age range, so.. but we're arguing principles here, no? So:

1.) Because the German public health care system would brake down, if the draft resisters (in German called "Zivis") as inexpensive work force would not longer exist.
You're arguing in favor of a military draft with the argument of military service draft resisters? Cute. I agree we need our Zivis, but for the Elk's sake let us just do a compulsory Zivi, then (for all, btw).
2.) Historic reason: Germans have bad experiences with the Reichswehr in the Weimarer republic as a professional army, which turned into a state in the state.
Germans have bad experiences with people having the right to vote; the used it to elect gruesome people to office during and especially at the very end of the Weimarer Republik, so we should, for 'historic reasons', not allow a free right to vote in this country today.

...

Or maybe not. Maybe there is such a thing as the Historische Einmaligkeit and the fact that things and times change.

3.) It would be quite more difficult to find volunteers for the Bundeswehr without compulsory military service, because the most ot them, who serve longer as professional soldiers in the Bundeswehr joined the army as draftees.
I don't even know what you're trying to say here - that all those who go on to become professional soldiers wouldn't have done so if they hadn't served their compulsory year? Allow me to express doubt over that one.
4.) Because of that, after the abolition of the compulsory military service, the level of the soldiers in the lower ranks would be damned lower than now.
First of all, I can't say that's the most terrible thing I've ever heard, but.. even if it were, such things to a big part are a matter of incentives, which of course need to be upped if you want people to d things voluntarily rather than by force.
5.) I think, I should have to do something for my country and also all the rest of them, and because just a few do that voluntarily, it must be compulsory.
Well, and I think that I should do something to relief the poverty in the world, and so should all the rest of the poplation, but as only a few do that voluntarily, it must be compulsory. The same goes for giving me chocolate on a regular basis.

..

There's a lot of things that "should" be done, but that doesn't mean the state has a business enforcing those things.

Well I wish we had military service in England. Since we stop it in the 1950's our country has gone down hill. We have no sense of direction for the youth in England they are boared and so get up to all sorts of trouble.
It's true, with national service we'd learn how to shoot, and hence could kill any wild boars that looked at us at all funny, hence destroying the problem of our youth being boared.

However, I'm more in favour of spending money on education so that people can learn to spell and such myself.

No, for the mess in the countries that make up the Middle East. For that the British are directly responsible. (Are you trying to be dense or does that just happen?)
I think the Germans may have had a hand in that also, to be fair.

I think the Germans may have had a hand in that also, to be fair.

Nevermind also centuries of religious and cultural differences...

Really, the colonialists were just the tip of the iceberg.

"Much of what's wrong with today's youth can be fixed with a year's worth of military service"

Agree?
Disagree?
Myrth?

(yes, if it sounds familiar, it is one of the ten questions they ask you when you create a nation)

Ideologically, I think it's a great idea. But, like communism, I feel that in practice it is somewhat...unrealistic. For a state like Israel, which is in a constant state of war, it is necessary and effective. But in the US, the idea went down the tubes after Vietnam. Though, this can be attributed to the unpopular draft system. Uniform mandatory service is something that has not been tried in the US, though is common in many European countries.
Hell no.

I will fight and kill ONLY if I believe the cause is worthy of my life, and the lives of other humans. If my government wants me to kill or die for them, then it's their responsibility to convince me that it's worth it. If they can't do that much then they're either fighting a lousy war or are lousy at explaining things, and either way I'm not about to put my body on the line at their direction.

Just look at Switzerland and you will know this is a bad idea.

As GN already pointed out, military service isn't compulsory, and the draft for service in general doesn't even ctach half of half of the population in the age range, so.. but we're arguing principles here, no?

De facto military service isn't compulsory, but de jure it is. As I said, in my opinion the choice have to be free.


You're arguing in favor of a military draft with the argument of military service draft resisters? Cute. I agree we need our Zivis, but for the Elk's sake let us just do a compulsory Zivi, then (for all, btw).

I'm arguing for a compulsory service (for all, btw ;)) with a free choice fpr the draftees, if they want to be Zivi or Bundi.


Germans have bad experiences with people having the right to vote; the used it to elect gruesome people to office during and especially at the very end of the Weimarer Republik, so we should, for 'historic reasons', not allow a free right to vote in this country today.

Nice try. :D


Or maybe not. Maybe there is such a thing as the Historische Einmaligkeit and the fact that things and times change.

I think, that there is a danger, that a professional army rather will be a tool for anti-democratics than a conscript army. Look at the Roman Republic, what happened, when Marius changed the army of citiziens in a professional army. One important step to the military monarchy under Augustus. And why demanded liberal revolutionaries in Germany in the 19th century conscript army instead of the professional armies of their sovereigns?


I don't even know what you're trying to say here - that all those who go on to become professional soldiers wouldn't have done so if they hadn't served their compulsory year? Allow me to express doubt over that one.

It's just the experience I did, when I served, and I heard it from many other soldiers I met. I remember, it was also written in the SPIEGEL once.


First of all, I can't say that's the most terrible thing I've ever heard, but.. even if it were, such things to a big part are a matter of incentives, which of course need to be upped if you want people to d things voluntarily rather than by force.

I saw enough draftees, who do their job with more motivation than the volunteers, who were only there for the money. A voluntary army is no automatism for more motivation of the soldiers.


Well, and I think that I should do something to relief the poverty in the world, and so should all the rest of the poplation, but as only a few do that voluntarily, it must be compulsory.

I agree. Especially for Mr. Ackermann and his friends.

The same goes for giving me chocolate on a regular basis.

I need someone, who washs my dishes on a regular basis. I would give him a lot of chocolate. ;)



There's a lot of things that "should" be done, but that doesn't mean the state has a business enforcing those things.

In that case I disagree.

Voluntary service.

Not for any ideological reason, but for a strategic/tactical reason: Compulsory service forces people to be part of the military. They may not actually want to be there. Hence, morale may be low, giving the military a disadvantage in real combat situations because its soldiers will be more likely to break and run. The object of the government seeking a strong military should be to make people want to join the military voluntarily, creating a group of highly enthusiastic volunteers.

Compulsory military service only works in an area in which the nation is continually threatened by outside forces. In such nations, it should be noted that most of the citizens forced into the military will nonetheless be filled with patriotic sentiment and enthusiasm because they will have already experienced enemy assaults, whether firsthand or through news media, and thus no significant blow to net morale will be observed.

"Much of what's wrong with today's youth can be fixed with a year's worth of military service"


Disagree.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12919532']I had nothing to do with what happened then so I'm sure as hell not going to accept responsibility for it. I wasn't even alive anywhere near then. I'm no more responsible for what happened under the British Empire any more than you are for what happened in the holocaust.
Good!
Glad to hear that.
Now, if you could make all the idiots who still bring up the 3rd Reich to me as soon as they find out I'm German, I'd be more than pleased. Actually, quite happy.

But as long as that doesn't change, I'm more than willing to point the finger right back. (And sometimes that finger even ain't the index finger :eek::p:D)
I think the Germans may have had a hand in that also, to be fair.
Uhm, no. The German Empire didn't have a single colony in the Middle East and definitely didn't draw any lines there...
Nevermind also centuries of religious and cultural differences...
Really, the colonialists were just the tip of the iceberg.
And the borders established during that time are still valid today, regardless of religious and cultural differences...
I need someone, who washs my dishes on a regular basis. I would give him a lot of chocolate. ;)
Clever. I'd pay 10% more in chocolate goodness if you cleaned mine.

If service is compulsory it isn't patriotic, it's just another onerous task.

If service is compulsory it isn't patriotic, it's just another onerous task.

When people impose such systems, it's not to instill patriotism.

Most of the the time, it's to provide an environment for indoctrination. But, in a country with even a marginally effective public school system, there's no need for that. You can have a few civics classes, recite the pledge every morning, and show the flag.

You can also fit in a few socially oriented classes that rewrite history and instruct children in birth control, etc. A much better social engineering tool than mere military service.

I am against compulsory military service, on the idea that I don't want someone next to me who didn't volunteer for the duty.

Military service matured me. I support compulsory service with one caveat. Psychological screenings, so that you at least know to separate the "gang-bangers" from the "nerds" from the "good boys" etc. Bad experiences all around getting constantly thrown in among the worst sorts of people.:(

Military service matured me. I support compulsory service with one caveat. Psychological screenings, so that you at least know to separate the "gang-bangers" from the "nerds" from the "good boys" etc. Bad experiences all around getting constantly thrown in among the worst sorts of people.:(

It may mature people, but that's not its intended purpose.

Take some of the pacifists and government-haters on this forum. It won't mature them and it won't make them fight.

They'll end up being logistical dead weight in combat, and very possibly work against you in combat (hopefully, they do something stupid right off, and step on a land mine or get captured by the enemy and appear on al-Jazeera minus their head).

Compulsory Military Service is the creation of a wage-slave military force that choose the fate of death of unneeded suffering on the draftees and their loved ones. It is very inhumane and unpatriotic for people to die fighting for a government that force them into the military through warfare and accidents. Military Service need to all volunter, well paid, well equiped, and well trained for high morale and professional army. Only allow your most patriotic and civic citizens to join, so morale and willing to fight for your government is second to none, and their matryism during battle will inspire other joins and defeat the invader(s).

and their matryism during battle will inspire other joins and defeat the invader(s).

In the case of the US, we have a policy of not wanting to be martyrs.

Sure, we hand out some posthumous medals, but the dictum of "make the other bastard die for his country" is in effect.

I think, that there is a danger, that a professional army rather will be a tool for anti-democratics than a conscript army.
I know that argument, but I don't think that a volunteer army would draw much different a type for the long-term servers than it does today (minus those few who are just too lazy to do something else once they've been drafted) (and from what I've heard from people working with these long-term soldiers, there's a definite anti-democratic tendency in there as it is already), and I don't think the major part of any useful army [sic?] should be comprised of people who are shuffled through there for nine (?) months and then leave again, you know, efficiency and skill wise, quite apart form the moral issue.
Look at the Roman Republic, what happened, when Marius changed the army of citiziens in a professional army. One important step to the military monarchy under Augustus.
I'll do my Latinum in a few weeks; if you don't mind I'll try to not think of anything Roman if I don't have to. :]
And why demanded liberal revolutionaries in Germany in the 19th century conscript army instead of the professional armies of their sovereigns?Quite honestly I didn't understand that question, but even if I did, it might not do me a lot of good because it seems to ask for a certain background in history I most definitely don't have.
I need someone, who washs my dishes on a regular basis. I would give him a lot of chocolate. ;)
I'd shake hands on that, but..


Clever. I'd pay 10% more in chocolate goodness if you cleaned mine.

... deal. When do I start? :]

Then what would you do, endure the harsh physical punishment? Try the silent treatment and get put in army gaol? Run away, get caught, and be put in civi prison?

Of course many army’s have different training techniques and standards. In the British army men are taught to obey orders, but act on initiative if they are given bad orders from a bad officer (which are almost non-existent in the British army, the best trained in the world) and to ALWAYS check fire in case of civilians or other troops, a lesson learnt in Northern Ireland.

Whereas American troops, from what I’m told, are ground down to have basically no personality and they will follow any order, how ever daft and who ever they kill. And because they rely heavily on their technology which is “never” wrong they don’t check their fire and often hit the wrong targets.

So basically A couple years service can be good or bad, depending on the country, training and situation.

Whatever army it is makes no difference. All this petty nationalism about "my country's troops are better-trained than yours" has nothing to do with it. There's really a universal principle at stake here, and that principle is that members of the public should have the right to spend their youth as they want, not forced to enlist for a military unit. Military service is a means of controlling civil society. It's a tool of tyranny, if you will, employed by governments for their own good, and not that of their people. It's also a fairly strong indicator of a society in trouble, with few notable exceptions.

Now, I don't especially feel as though I owe any duty to my government. My Prime Minister wasn't elected, and our forces fight in a war that our public didn't agree to. I fail to see how any in-built sense of "duty" should compel me to sacrifice my supposed liberties for a country that is still wasting its time and destroying its reputation happily destroying the Middle East.

Since the end of compulsory draft, the quality standard of Italian military personnel is going down the drain. This is because only the guys hailing from poorer -and less educated- families look for work in the army. Other, more skilled people, usually find work elsewhere. The draft granted that every kind of social classes and of educational degrees served.

There's really a universal principle at stake here, and that principle is that members of the public should have the right to spend their youth as they want, not forced to enlist for a military unit.
This is an universal right? I doubt it. Find me the part in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that states it. Also, a citizen that has come of age has no "special youth protection status" anymore. He's a full-fledged citizen, and this comes with some duties.


Military service is a means of controlling civil society. It's a tool of tyranny, if you will, employed by governments for their own good, and not that of their people. It's also a fairly strong indicator of a society in trouble, with few notable exceptions.

Also professional armies are the best tool of tyranny, because they enlist only people who are extremely poor, or uneducated, or fascinated with violence and discipline, and willing to obey to any order.
A drafted army is a better guarantee of democracy than a professional-only one.


Now, I don't especially feel as though I owe any duty to my government. My Prime Minister wasn't elected,
Looks like you should fight to have at least the right to elect your government. Neh?

Compulsory military service: not cool.
Compulsory military service during a war: really not cool.

Plus there is no way Canada could afford to equip and train that much of the population. We'd be like Russia in WWI.

We did have conscription in World War II and came out of the war with the 4th largest Navy. We can afford to equip our nation we just don't have 100 million peasants to sacrifice like the USSR.

Also, military or government service seems to work well in Europe. If Norway and Switzerland can do it so can Canada.

It might just instill a better nationalistic spirit.

... deal. When do I start? :]
Taking a look at my kitchen, I'd say yesterday would be good! http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/abwasch.gif

But before you head over here, just tell me what your rates in chocolate are - and which kind you'd prefer. ;)
If it's too high I might as well hire a conchie to do the job. :p

This is an universal right? I doubt it. Find me the part in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that states it. Also, a citizen that has come of age has no "special youth protection status" anymore. He's a full-fledged citizen, and this comes with some duties.

We hardly live in a perfect world. I fail to see how that is a justification for the failings of international law. Responsibilities are, I accept, to be encouraged. However, I hardly find it fitting that any state that claims to grant its citizens freedom of any kind, can force them to fight or, conceivably, die for it. Morally, nobody can really be said to owe that to their country.

Also professional armies are the best tool of tyranny, because they enlist only people who are extremely poor, or uneducated, or fascinated with violence and discipline, and willing to obey to any order.
A drafted army is a better guarantee of democracy than a professional-only one.

Hardly so. Perhaps a professional army can be better-disciplined, and therefore more effective in carrying out dubious orders, but that is a different matter. "Military Service" is a tool that is used to break the individual, and instill conformity in the young. It's simply a way of further the control of whichever government happens to be in power. Enlistment in a professional army is based upon the consent of individuals, and is therefore infinitely better. There's nothing democratic about determining the lives of citizens without their say-so.

Looks like you should fight to have at least the right to elect your government. Neh?

Probably so. I am in to socialist internationalism, anyway. If I were to fight for the removal of our current government, it would something that was compelled by my perceived duty to humanity, than any duty to the nation-State.

"Military Service" is a tool that is used to break the individual, and instill conformity in the young.

Hm, then they did a bad job with me. Neither my individuality is broken nor I'm conform. :rolleyes:

Hm, then they did a bad job with me. Neither my individuality is broken nor I'm conform. :rolleyes:

A lot of people on this forum believe somehow that military training "breaks" you.

It's a popular misconception among people who have never been to military training at all.

Hm, then they did a bad job with me. Neither my individuality is broken nor I'm conform. :rolleyes:

It seems they didn't need to try with you. You seem quite happy with the principle, anyway.

A lot of people on this forum believe somehow that military training "breaks" you.

It's a popular misconception among people who have never been to military training at all.

Not especially. I think that that attitude generally belongs to those right-wingers who assume that, by forcing universal conscription, they can prevent all rebelliousness and criminality. Personally, I think that being drilled and ordered about has a de-humanising effect, when it's forced on you. It's no coincidence that fascist regimes have relied on military pageants and flouncy uniforming to create their sense of power..

It seems they didn't need to try with you. You seem quite happy with the principle, anyway.

If you say so, it must be true...

Not especially. I think that that attitude generally belongs to those right-wingers who assume that, by forcing universal conscription, they can prevent all rebelliousness and criminality. Personally, I think that being drilled and ordered about has a de-humanising effect, when it's forced on you. It's no coincidence that fascist regimes have relied on military pageants and flouncy uniforming to create their sense of power..

I was in the military, as enlisted infantry.

There is very little "drill" these days in the US Army. There is a lot of training specific to being an infantryman, but no dehumanizing activities.

And unfortunately for you, I do not think universal conscription is a solution for anything. It's a bad idea, but not for the reasons you mention.

I was in the military, as enlisted infantry.

There is very little "drill" these days in the US Army. There is a lot of training specific to being an infantryman, but no dehumanizing activities.

And unfortunately for you, I do not think universal conscription is a solution for anything. It's a bad idea, but not for the reasons you mention.

...The hell? You said you were a government worker...>_>; And that you were bi...>_<

I was in the military, as enlisted infantry.

There is very little "drill" these days in the US Army. There is a lot of training specific to being an infantryman, but no dehumanizing activities.

And unfortunately for you, I do not think universal conscription is a solution for anything. It's a bad idea, but not for the reasons you mention.

As the US Army is a professional army, the comparison does not stand. As I have already stated, being part of a professional army is an act of consent. Therefore, it does not contravene anyone's human rights. I also recall having stated that military exercises are dehumanising when forced upon you, which is again not the case in a professional army. I shall assume you chose to ignore that.

Also, what is unfortunate for me about you ultimately agreeing with me about universal conscription? If anything, I am pleased for you.

I also recall having stated that military exercises are dehumanising when forced upon you

What do you mean by "dehumanising"?

Would you say the same about German people of your generation and their fault for the holocaust?

I absolutely would say the same! suggesting that Germans born long after the holocaust are responsible is a horrible notion. We're all individuals, no matter where we happen to have been born, and can take neither blame nor credit for what went before, but must earn it for ourselves.

I absolutely would say the same! suggesting that Germans born long after the holocaust are responsible is a horrible notion. We're all individuals, no matter where we happen to have been born, and can take neither blame nor credit for what went before, but must earn it for ourselves.

As GN said, tell that the people who still say, that we are responsible. Happens too much.

As GN said, tell that the people who still say, that we are responsible. Happens too much.

unfortunately, I can believe that, and it is wrong :(

There are exceptions, I.E. Those that can't. But just about everyone in the country of the United States can. Here are my reasonings:

1. Military service is paid for. Yes, compulsary is not voluntary, but even those that volunteer, are paid. It would help our homeless people by far, by giving them that which they need. A place for a steady job.

2. There is so much to do in the military. It would be compulsary but you can choose which branch. If you don't know what you want to do with your life, what better way than to check out some of the stuff, and be paid to check it out for a year!

3. Everyone should be willing to fight for the rest of their freedoms in this country. You can be unsupportive of the government, but that's not what the military is about. The military is about supporting your self, your family, and your brethren in fighting to live in the country you live in. If you are unwilling to protect that which you argue for, then you should find another country to live in.

4. It's required fitness. People complain about our obesity problems. Well, let's fix it. We've given you the choice many times. So now, we're going to get you in the habit. If this full year of being physically fit doesn't get you in the habit of staying so, then we'll get off your back.

Those are my main reasons for saying yes. It would fix quite a bit of our problems and help those that need it.

Not especially. I think that that attitude generally belongs to those right-wingers who assume that, by forcing universal conscription, they can prevent all rebelliousness and criminality. Personally, I think that being drilled and ordered about has a de-humanising effect, when it's forced on you. It's no coincidence that fascist regimes have relied on military pageants and flouncy uniforming to create their sense of power..

Sorry. Basic training doesn't do that.

You've been watching too many old WW II movies.

...The hell? You said you were a government worker...>_>; And that you were bi...>_<

I'm 46 years old. I was in the Army off and on from 1987 to 2003, both directly in the military, and as a PSD.

I got a law degree from George Mason University in 1993.

I got my English degree from GMU in 1983 (that should help you all narrow the list down).

I work for the Federal government, but not as an employee of the Federal government - as a consultant.

I'm 46 years old. I was in the Army off and on from 1987 to 2003, both directly in the military, and as a PSD.

I got a law degree from George Mason University in 1993.

I got my English degree from GMU in 1983 (that should help you all narrow the list down).

I work for the Federal government, but not as an employee of the Federal government - as a consultant.


Ahhh, I see...

Ahhh, I see...

To some people on this forum, it's impossible to have gone to school more than once, or had more than one career...

Hell no. I will NOT be ordered by my inferiors to do the unspeakable against my peers. I owe NOTHING to my country, I pledge NO allegiance to it and I will NOT kill in its name. Ever.

Even if it's overrun by zombies?

Fighting in a way to benefit your country =/= Fighting for your country

Hell no. I will NOT be ordered by my inferiors to do the unspeakable against my peers. I owe NOTHING to my country, I pledge NO allegiance to it and I will NOT kill in its name. Ever.

Even if it's overrun by zombies?

No. Not unless the country was being invaded.

Taking a look at my kitchen, I'd say yesterday would be good! http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/abwasch.gif
Alright. *does the RL time-warp equivalent*

But wait.. lest I misinterpret the picture and/or our terms of service.. I shall NOT wear a pink bow during work hours, alright?

But before you head over here, just tell me what your rates in chocolate are - and which kind you'd prefer. ;)
If it's too high I might as well hire a conchie to do the job. :p

I guarantee you you won't find no one else who'll do as spiffy a job as I. ;P

Ich nehm' dann mal zwei Tafeln pro Abtropfständer voll, entweder Milka (Vollmilch, Mousse au chocolat, weiß, Noisette, S&K, Triolade, Kuhflecken, Sahne, Jogurt, Crispy, ...) oder die geile von Aldi (Vollmilch oder Weiß oder S&K).

Even if it's overrun by zombies?

I'd still not join the army. I'm an occultist, I'd probably be more skilled in that scenario than grunts anyways. I'd fight for myself and for the ones I love, not for the country that essentially left me for dead in Colombia when I was 9.

Alright. *does the RL time-warp equivalent*

But wait.. lest I misinterpret the picture and/or our terms of service.. I shall NOT wear a pink bow during work hours, alright?
That's cool with me. I was simply glad that I found a dishwashing female smiley in the first place. :p
I guarantee you you won't find no one else who'll do as spiffy a job as I. ;P
Ich nehm' dann mal zwei Tafeln pro Abtropfständer voll, entweder Milka (Vollmilch, Mousse au chocolat, weiß, Noisette, S&K, Triolade, Kuhflecken, Sahne, Jogurt, Crispy, ...) oder die geile von Aldi (Vollmilch oder Weiß oder S&K).
Na, dann werde ich mal ein, zwei Kilo Schokolade einkaufen, was? :eek:

Na, dann werde ich mal ein, zwei Kilo Schokolade einkaufen, was? :eek:

Cool with me. Geh'n Fahrtkosten auf Dich oder auf mich?

The moment military service becomes compulsory, I will willingly take up arms.



Against the government.

Any government that forces people into the shameful act of violence does not deserve to exist.

Cool with me. Geh'n Fahrtkosten auf Dich oder auf mich?
Mmh. Good question. Kannst Du nicht kostenfrei fahren?

Mmh. Good question. Kannst Du nicht kostenfrei fahren?

Depends. Wo muss ich hin? Warst Du der Hamburger Jung, oder der Berliner? Letzteres wäre rather costly, von Bielefeld aus..

Oh, Bielefeld. Das ist ja fast um die Ecke. :D

Fuck no. Whilst I daresay the discipline and sense of person instilled by military service would be of merit to juvenile delinquents and consistent offenders, I see no good reason to put the likes of myself through such an experience, wholly at odds with my personality.

Those who require military service as an alternative to prison identify themselves through their crimes.

Famous Last Words:

"I drank what?!" -Socrates

Val Kilmer as Chris Knight in Real Genius. Classic.

I wouldnt last a day in the military.

"PRIVATE! WHY DID YOU DISOBEY MY ORDER"

"Sir! It was a stupid order Sir!

Understood. I'm nobody's soldier -- I'm far too used to questioning authority. Whenever I see a film that has a typical boot camp scene with the pale imitations of R. Lee Ermey in the face of some recruit, I always think the same thing. I wouldn't last a week.

He'd get in my face and bellow some question, and I wouldn't answer. When he asked me WHY ARE YOU NOT ANSWERING MY QUESTION, MAGGOT?!

I'd probably reply SIR! BECAUSE THERE IS NO RESPONSE THE PRIVATE COULD GIVE THAT WOULD NOT RESULT IN HIS ASS BEING KICKED, SIR!

Hey, I have an even better idea! Let's throw the bad boys in police academies. Serve and protect and all that.

.... I'm at a loss. Honestly.

Help people to some decent opportunities in life and a tolerable standard of living. That's how you solve social problems. Giving yobs guns just creates RO type people. Already way too many of those around.

Any society requiring military service by its youth is a society that should face revolution in the face of a broken and immoral social contract. Slavery is wrong in all forms, especially when perpetrated by the aged upon the young.

Depends. Wo muss ich hin? Warst Du der Hamburger Jung, oder der Berliner? Letzteres wäre rather costly, von Bielefeld aus..
Aw, don't you remember? Wir sind die Niedersachsen... Göttingen would be your destination.

Aw, don't you remember? Wir sind die Niedersachsen... Göttingen would be your destination.

So it will be a Spaziergang for him. Nach Göttingen kann man von OWL ja fast laufen..

You all seem to think that by doing service you would be required to fight, most likely is you would be put on the reserve list, kind of like the TA. And called up in times of emergency or when the standing army is exhausted, which would rarely happen. The main benefit would probably be the discipline and team-work skills people would develop. If any of you have seen bad lad’s army on TV they take loads of "bad lads" with multiple offences and give them a month or 2 of 1950's national service, they all come out "fixed" and have a respect for authority and don’t go round mugging people.

You all seem to think that by doing service you would be required to fight, most likely is you would be put on the reserve list, kind of like the TA. And called up in times of emergency or when the standing army is exhausted, which would rarely happen. The main benefit would probably be the discipline and team-work skills people would develop. If any of you have seen bad lad’s army on TV they take loads of "bad lads" with multiple offences and give them a month or 2 of 1950's national service, they all come out "fixed" and have a respect for authority and don’t go round mugging people.

A lot of the TA seem to be heading out to Iraq if i'm not mistaken

A lot of the TA seem to be heading out to Iraq if i'm not mistaken

...and a lot of our National Guard as well.

A lot of the TA seem to be heading out to Iraq if i'm not mistaken They have the choice to go, you can join the TA and never go to war. And anyway, a hundred odd British men have died in Iraq so far; hardly heavy losses for the time spent there

They have the choice to go, you can join the TA and never go to war. And anyway, a hundred odd British men have died in Iraq so far; hardly heavy losses for the time spent there

The TA don't have to go to war if they don't want to? I always thought that they had to unless they had joined the Group B TA (or whatever it's called). Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/1759358.stm)

Britain's volunteer soldiers have been compulsorily called into action - for the first time in 45 years.

The government has the power to order individual members of the 40,000-strong TA to abandon their civilian jobs for up to a year if the Ministry of Defence requires their services.

You've pointed out that the loss of life is relatively low yet that isn't the point for many people. They don't want to have to shoot to kill.

If any of you have seen bad lad’s army on TV they take loads of "bad lads" with multiple offences and give them a month or 2 of 1950's national service, they all come out "fixed" and have a respect for authority and don’t go round mugging people.

Do you have proof that they don't reoffend?

Within each series a small number of recruits have either walked out (after a 24 hour cooling off period, generally in the guard house), or been ejected. The majority of the remainder claim some benefit from the experience and some have chosen the British Army as a career at the end of it. Wikipedia

The TA don't have to go to war if they don't want to? I always thought that they had to unless they had joined the Group B TA (or whatever it's called). Oh well, I always thought they were asked to go, not forced to go. Seeing as they got the nick-name "desert dodgers" because when the 1st Gulf war was on very few decided to go.

You've pointed out that the loss of life is relatively low yet that isn't the point for many people. They don't want to have to shoot to kill. Well in the old system they would have been simply put in Prison. But now I think it would be good to send contentious objectors to work in the NHS or something, of course you would have to do something to make sure you don’t just get the delinquents claiming to be objectors; perhaps a test or lower pay.

Well in the old system they would have been simply put in Prison. But now I think it would be good to send contentious objectors to work in the NHS or something, of course you would have to do something to make sure you don’t just get the delinquents claiming to be objectors; perhaps a test or lower pay.

Question, seriously asking.

If you have a conscientious objection to killing, why join the military in the first place?

Wikipedia

Oh well, I always thought they were asked to go, not forced to go. Seeing as they got the nick-name "desert dodgers" because when the 1st Gulf war was on very few decided to go.

Well in the old system they would have been simply put in Prison. But now I think it would be good to send contentious objectors to work in the NHS or something, of course you would have to do something to make sure you don’t just get the delinquents claiming to be objectors; perhaps a test or lower pay.


It's conscientious objector not contentious and I don't see why anyone should be penalised for their beliefs and principles with lower pay

Your wikipedia example doesn't really say whether or not the benefits stuck to be honest

Question, seriously asking.

If you have a conscientious objection to killing, why join the military in the first place?

Because the government is forcing you?

It's conscientious objector not contentious and I don't see why anyone should be penalised for their beliefs and principles with lower pay

Your wikipedia example doesn't really say whether or not the benefits stuck to be honest Well they wouldn’t do as much work and it would generally be an easier experience so why should they get as much pay. Or it could be that the government want you to do something, but you won’t so less pay is a punishment. They may have different principles and believes but they still live in the same country, if you don’t like it you can leave. You seem to be forgetting that the government are in control and until the next election you can’t do anything about it.

This is all theory; I doubt the Government in this country would introduce national service anyway. Even if it would win them an election it would be expensive, especially since they poured all that money into the NHS and Education when they didn’t need it.

Well they wouldn’t do as much work and it would generally be an easier experience so why should they get as much pay. Or it could be that the government want you to do something, but you won’t so less pay is a punishment. They may have different principles and believes but they still live in the same country, if you don’t like it you can leave. You seem to be forgetting that the government are in control and until the next election you can’t do anything about it.


Why would they do easier and less work?

The government could try to punish people for not taking the route they want but it wouldn't make it any better in my eyes. They may be in control and I can't exercise my right to vote until an election but that doesn't mean that a significant group of people can't sway the government to change their position on something. It has happened in the past and it will more than likely happen again.

Why oh why is the " if you don’t like it you can leave." phrase tossed about as if it's a valid argument. It's really really not. If you don't like it you can change it or you can leave. There is a choice

Why would they do easier and less work?

The government could try to punish people for not taking the route they want but it wouldn't make it any better in my eyes. They may be in control and I can't exercise my right to vote until an election but that doesn't mean that a significant group of people can't sway the government to change their position on something. It has happened in the past and it will more than likely happen again.

Why oh why is the " if you don’t like it you can leave." phrase tossed about as if it's a valid argument. It's really really not. If you don't like it you can change it or you can leave. There is a choice

Well it would be less work because you would work 9till5 and not have to strenuous physical training, complex weapons training, stay up all night on exercise etc. And have you ever tried standing to attention for two hours? So far it has been the most painful experience of my life.

And what’s so wrong with the "if you don’t like it leave"? If you don’t like it surly you would want to leave anyway

Well it would be less work because you would work 9till5 and not have to strenuous physical training, complex weapons training, stay up all night on exercise etc. And have you ever tried standing to attention for two hours? So far it has been the most painful experience of my life.

And what’s so wrong with the "if you don’t like it leave"? If you don’t like it surly you would want to leave anyway

Who said it had to be a 9-5 job anyway? Why not make it equivalent in difficulty? Just because you don't wish to join the military doesn't mean you want to be lazy (And yep I have stood to attention for long stretches of time and stayed up all night)

As I said before, if you don't like it you have a choice between leaving or changing it.

Because the government is forcing you?

If a government forces military service, I doubt they would allow conscientious objections.

If a government forces military service, I doubt they would allow conscientious objections.

If a government forces national service they would, not to mention that it doesn't matter whether it was allowed or not. It would still exist even in a compulsory military service scenario

British youth need more discipline. Yes.

An important byproduct of military service has been its role in upgrading the skills of low-income youth. The armed forces may be the most effective anti-poverty program the U.S. federal government runs. Of course, it is also the most expensive.

It's true, if everyone had to join the military, there would be no one without useful working skills.

However, I doubt forcing people to join the military would have any more success than forcing people to attend school. And of course, there is that little issue of what the military does when there's a war on.

The main benefit would probably be the discipline and team-work skills people would develop. If any of you have seen bad lad’s army on TV they take loads of "bad lads" with multiple offences and give them a month or 2 of 1950's national service, they all come out "fixed" and have a respect for authority and don’t go round mugging people.


Why the hell is discipline a benefit? Discipline at the hands of bullies isn't a good thing, it's a bad thing. Respect for authority? Authority isn't something that should be respected, it's something that should be resisted. It sounds to me more like governmental bullshit brainwashing, and the last thing we need is more bullshit groupthink.

And what is a "Bad" lad? Is it someone who breaks the law? How long until it's someone who can't stand the way the government works? How long until it's the kids who dress wrong? Fuck "bad lad" logic. Get the criminals into real rehabilitation programs, and leave the rest of us alone.

An authority fetish is no excuse for psuedo-slavery enforced by the aged upon the young. Until I see every 80 year old, every 60 year old, and every 40 year old signing up for psuedo-slavery as well, they have no right to say what the 20 year olds should do.

I would approve of military TRAINING, but not necessarily service. It would virtually wipe out all youth crime, as well as making the country harder to invade, as the population would be ready to take arms at a moment's notice. Not to mention that the kids would have better manners, and respect, and would be better skilled.

Wow, I just persuaded myself to that idea.

Edit; Sorry if I'm repeating; I only read the first post.

I would approve of military TRAINING, but not necessarily service. It would virtually wipe out all youth crime, as well as making the country harder to invade, as the population would be ready to take arms at a moment's notice. Not to mention that the kids would have better manners, and respect, and would be better skilled.

Wow, I just persuaded myself to that idea.

Edit; Sorry if I'm repeating; I only read the first post.

It would? So when National Service was in effect that was the case?

It would? So when National Service was in effect that was the case?
Well, I would imagine that it would. I couldn't really know whether it has in the past, or not...

Well, I would imagine that it would. I couldn't really know whether it has in the past, or not...

It didn't have that result in the past so why would it now?

Aw, don't you remember? Wir sind die Niedersachsen... Göttingen would be your destination.

Fuck it, of course I remmeber, and even if I didn't on my own accord, the URL of your ubiquitous smileys ought to have tipped me off.. *hits self with lampshade*

I'll be over in a dash.

So it will be a Spaziergang for him. Nach Göttingen kann man von OWL ja fast laufen..

Sorry, kein Schwertträger.

Why the hell is discipline a benefit? Discipline at the hands of bullies isn't a good thing, it's a bad thing. Respect for authority? Authority isn't something that should be respected, it's something that should be resisted. It sounds to me more like governmental bullshit brainwashing, and the last thing we need is more bullshit groupthink.

And what is a "Bad" lad? Is it someone who breaks the law? How long until it's someone who can't stand the way the government works? How long until it's the kids who dress wrong? Fuck "bad lad" logic. Get the criminals into real rehabilitation programs, and leave the rest of us alone.

An authority fetish is no excuse for psuedo-slavery enforced by the aged upon the young. Until I see every 80 year old, every 60 year old, and every 40 year old signing up for psuedo-slavery as well, they have no right to say what the 20 year olds should do. Bad lads are lads who break the law, law that is to be maintained and respected. Think of a society without it. If no-body respected authority we would have a situation like Northern Ireland 10 years ago. Riots, kids’ fighting with the police, paramilitary’s ruling the streets. What sort of fucked-up person wants that? I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, if you don’t like it leave. Unless you’re not from Great Britain, in which case never come here, you won’t like it. And why should the older generations do National service, they have already done their service to the country in one way or another, Christ, your probably one of these people that thinks the Great War was fought for no good reason, wants to dissolve parliament and cut the Queens head off.

It didn't have that result in the past so why would it now?

Was there any serious youth crime before the 60’s? Nope, and nation service is just one of the reasons for this.

Christ, your probably one of these people that thinks the Great War was fought for no good reason, wants to dissolve parliament and cut the Queens head off.

Hate to burst your bubble... But unless you count excessive nationalism or imperialism as good reasons, then...

@ OP: Fuck no, compulsory military service = slavery

If a government forces national service they would, not to mention that it doesn't matter whether it was allowed or not. It would still exist even in a compulsory military service scenario

Really? I'm sure lots of Chinese soldiers will be glad to hear about that.

Bad lads are lads who break the law, law that is to be maintained and respected. Think of a society without it. If no-body respected authority we would have a situation like Northern Ireland 10 years ago. Riots, kids’ fighting with the police, paramilitary’s ruling the streets.

You do realise that the police and the military weren't exactly angels in the Troubles?

And you might like this link (http://www.historyandpolicy.org/archive/policy-paper-60.html)

Hate to burst your bubble... But unless you count excessive nationalism or imperialism as good reasons, then...

Well if a county near you started building up its armed forces and preparing for war against you, your overseas territories and other countries around you what would you do?

You do realise that the police and the military weren't exactly angels in the Troubles? The Royal Ulster Constabulary were a joke and the UDR (Ulster Defence Regiment) were extremely biased. But still better than the IRA (Irish Republican Army) and the UDF (Ulster Defence Force), terrorists lets not forget.

Hate to burst your bubble... But unless you count excessive nationalism or imperialism as good reasons, then...

Both faulty reasoning. Really, it was the breakdown of the balance of power. Nationalism doesn't work because it was the governments, not the people, who brought their respective countries into the war. Look at Russia. Nationalism took them out of the war, not kept them in. Imperialism likewise fails the test. How much of World War I was fought outside of Europe? Continental conflict did not arise from imperialist ambitions, or else they would have fought in the colonies. Which happened, but not at the same time or for the same reasons.

Really? I'm sure lots of Chinese soldiers will be glad to hear about that.

So you can't choose to be a conscientious objector even if you will be punished for it?

You said that there is no such thing as a conscientious objector in a compulsory military service scenario. That's a fallacy. The difference is that in some situations the objector is punished and in others they can choose to serve their country differently

So you can't choose to be a conscientious objector even if you will be punished for it?

You said that there is no such thing as a conscientious objector in a compulsory military service scenario. That's a fallacy. The difference is that in some situations the objector is punished and in others they can choose to serve their country differently

I did? Where?

"Doubt" isn't an affirmation, I don't believe. I could be wrong, though.

Well, yes, by that logic then anyone can be a conscientious objector. But the difference is between using it as a legal excuse or not. I was referring to countries that allowed it as a legal means of escaping military service, and in those countries that force you to serve in the military (notice my wording, here. "in the military" does not include those countries that offer "in the military or some other national service. Germany, for instance) they most often do not allow conscientious objectors. They may have them, but they don't allow them. See the difference?

So you can't choose to be a conscientious objector even if you will be punished for it?

You said that there is no such thing as a conscientious objector in a compulsory military service scenario. That's a fallacy. The difference is that in some situations the objector is punished and in others they can choose to serve their country differently I wonder if these objectors would think the same as the tanks are rolling though their street because to many men "didn’t want to kill anybody".

Sorry, kein Schwertträger.

Whatever.

The Royal Ulster Constabulary were a joke and the UDR (Ulster Defence Regiment) were extremely biased.

I wonder what it was that brought to light the faults in these organisations? Respect for authority? or possibly dissent against it?

I wonder what it was that brought to light the faults in these organisations? Respect for authority? or possibly dissent against it? Well they were biased towards the lads fighting the Irish, which perhaps not such a bad thing in the end. And the police were a joke because any member of the public could get hold of an AK-47 and the police had nothing.

I wonder if these objectors would think the same as the tanks are rolling though their street because to many men "didn’t want to kill anybody".

I guess we'll just have to wait and see, should that scenario ever come about

I guess we'll just have to wait and see, should that scenario ever come Scotland in abouth 10-15 years, against the Scot's Liberation Front :). Dont say I never told you so.

Well they were biased towards the lads fighting the Irish, which perhaps not such a bad thing in the end. And the police were a joke because any member of the public could get hold of an AK-47 and the police had nothing.

The police in NI routinely carry sidearms as well as having 20,000+ soldiers to help them out. Poor guys eh?

I'm not even going to comment on your sectarianism

Scotland in abouth 10-15 years, against the Scot's Liberation Front :). Dont say I never told you so.

You make me giggle ;)

The police in NI routinely carry sidearms as well as having 20,000+ soldiers to help them out. Poor guys eh?

I'm not even going to comment on your sectarianism

Firearms they can’t use against rioting kids and the IRA would go of to training camps in the Middle East with people like the Taliban; they were better trained and better equipped than the police. They would just pop out of nowhere; spray a load of bullets then disappear; the police had 9mm pistols.

Firearms they can’t use against rioting kids and the IRA would go of to training camps in the Middle East with people like the Taliban; they were better trained and better equipped than the police. They would just pop out of nowhere; spray a load of bullets then disappear; the police had 9mm pistols.

I thought you were comparing a poorly equipped police force with a well equipped terrorist organisation. If thats the case can you really use the example i've bolded?

And the 20,000+ soldiers? You seem to have let that slip past your argument about the poor defenseless authorities

Not that it matters particularly since we seem to have threadjacked 'slightly'

I thought you were comparing a poorly equipped police force with a well equipped terrorist organisation. If thats the case can you really use the example i've bolded?

And the 20,000+ soldiers? You seem to have let that slip past your argument about the poor defenseless authorities

Not that it matters particularly since we seem to have threadjacked 'slightly' Well the soldiers were good against the IRA and the rioting kids. The police weren’t good at either.

I would say we have occupied the thread, not hijacked lol. Anyone else is free to enter.

Well the soldiers were good against the IRA and the rioting kids. The police weren’t good at either.

I would say we have occupied the thread, not hijacked lol. Anyone else is free to enter.

*starts terrorist campaign against thread occupation*

*starts terrorist campaign against thread occupation* Leans from past experience and to avoid all the hassle just nukes the thread, now no-one can have it mwuahahah. Are you Irish by the way?

Leans from past experience and to avoid all the hassle just nukes the thread, now no-one can have it mwuahahah. Are you Irish by the way?

Yup (of the Northern variety though)

Yup (of the Northern variety though) Ah right, I guess you probably know more than me on the subject. I get all my info from an ex UDR/Kings Own Scottish Borders/Royal Fusilier soldier from Dublin, 3 ex UDR English soldiers and a couple of Irishmen.

Ah right, I guess you probably know more than me on the subject. I get all my info from an ex UDR/Kings Own Scottish Borders/Royal Fusilier Northern Irish Solder and an 3 ex UDR English soldiers.

They would be particularly biased then although i'm not free from bias myself. My experience of squaddies in NI doesn't lead me to like them particularly (based on my own generalisations of them from past experiences i'll grant you)

I can't speak to the situation in Britain, Canada, or much of the rest of the Anglophone world which is run by Constitutional Monarchy, but the United States is a Republic. We have no Chivalrous or Noble Class to defend our people or our land. It is the duty, not the option, of every citizen of the Republic, the thing of the people, to defend their land.

Other posters are making arguments that forced service in the defense of the nation somehow cheapens that service, or is akin to slavery. But it is a duty that is no more slavery than the obligations of family or to whatever deity one might believe in. You don't choose your family or your country. You owe your loyalty and your life to both.

They would be particularly biased then although i'm not free from bias myself. My experience of squaddies in NI doesn't lead me to like them particularly (based on my own generalisations of them from past experiences i'll grant you) Before we continue there are two important and quite embarrassing questions. Catholic or Protestant - Republican or Loyalist

Before we continue there are two important and quite embarrassing questions. Catholic or Protestant - Republican or Loyalist

None of the above is my preferred answer ;)

Lol that question always ends up being asked

None of the above is my preferred answer

Lol that question always ends up being asked That makes no sence, but il go with it. So wats ur experience with the squaddies

Why does it make no sense? Well how can you be one and not the other, fair enough with religion but not loyalist or republican. must be one or the other.

That makes no sence, but il go with it. So wats ur experience with the squaddies

Why does it make no sense?

Well how can you be one and not the other, fair enough with religion but not loyalist or republican. must be one or the other.

Apathy is the answer. I don't care either way whether NI stays in the UK or not

Apathy is the answer. I don't care either way whether NI stays in the UK or not OK. I can image the funny looks you've got over the years.

OK. I can image the funny looks you've got over the years.

I have friends with stronger political views who like to take the piss but it's mostly light hearted

Bad lads are lads who break the law, law that is to be maintained and respected. Think of a society without it. If no-body respected authority we would have a situation like Northern Ireland 10 years ago. Riots, kids’ fighting with the police, paramilitary’s ruling the streets. What sort of fucked-up person wants that? I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, if you don’t like it leave. Unless you’re not from Great Britain, in which case never come here, you won’t like it. And why should the older generations do National service, they have already done their service to the country in one way or another, Christ, your probably one of these people that thinks the Great War was fought for no good reason, wants to dissolve parliament and cut the Queens head off.

I'm not British, and I don't think that you lot need a Queen, but I don't really give a fuck. You seem to be one of those cranky old types who doesn't get that kids really don't give a fuck what you say. Authority is something to always be questioned, because unquestioned, it becomes tyranny. What happened in Northern Ireland was the product of those who did not understand that violence is part of the disease. Had they merely peacefully refused to be part of the British state, things would be far different, but they chose the path of violence.

Was WWII fought for no reason? No. It was fought because a madman had decided to try and take over Europe, and it was fought in self defense (you know, the only legitimate kind of war). If the old folks want to enslave the younger ones, every one of them had better also be going into service. We don't owe them a cent, and if they want to irrationally demand that younger people submit to state-sponsored slavery, they had best be joining in. Elsewise, they are just another illegitimate authority, and the only response to illigitimate authority is noncompliance.

Had they merely peacefully refused to be part of the British state, things would be far different, but they chose the path of violence.


You do know that they were in the minority, right?

You do know that they were in the minority, right?

Absolutely. The thing is, they would have been a tolerated minority, had they chosen to advocate for their cause peacefully. Instead, they turned against their own people, and in doing so became just another tyrranical group. As it is, they've ensured that no one will ever support them because they are no more than murderers.

As it is, the seperatists have lost completely, and lost all legitimacy.

I can't speak to the situation in Britain, Canada, or much of the rest of the Anglophone world which is run by Constitutional Monarchy, but the United States is a Republic. We have no Chivalrous or Noble Class to defend our people or our land. It is the duty, not the option, of every citizen of the Republic, the thing of the people, to defend their land.

Other posters are making arguments that forced service in the defense of the nation somehow cheapens that service, or is akin to slavery. But it is a duty that is no more slavery than the obligations of family or to whatever deity one might believe in. You don't choose your family or your country. You owe your loyalty and your life to both.

It's my option. I have no duty whatsoever to the country that left me for dead in Colombia when I was 9. That assuming countries even EXIST. I also have no obligation to family members that never helped me. Choice is, and always will be, universal. The only honorable duties are the ones you CHOOSE to have.

I'm not British, and I don't think that you lot need a Queen, but I don't really give a fuck. You seem to be one of those cranky old types who doesn't get that kids really don't give a fuck what you say. Authority is something to always be questioned, because unquestioned, it becomes tyranny. What happened in Northern Ireland was the product of those who did not understand that violence is part of the disease. Had they merely peacefully refused to be part of the British state, things would be far different, but they chose the path of violence. Newsflash, I’m 15. Kids do give a fuck what the authority say, at least the ones with half-decent parents and modicum of common sense do. I’v seen kids like you at school, the ones that question authority and end up ruining it for everybody for NO good reason. Now my local council is an authority with quite a bit of power and have been going for decades, and they haven’t become tyrannical. Neither has my Government thank you very much. If you knew anything about NI you would know people have been fighting for hundreds of years and that the IRA does have a political side which recently announced the dis-arming of all its members. To be honest to be peacefully not a part of the British state in Ireland you have to go to the south or risk having your house fire-bombed.

Was WWII fought for no reason? No. It was fought because a madman had decided to try and take over Europe, and it was fought in self defense (you know, the only legitimate kind of war). If the old folks want to enslave the younger ones, every one of them had better also be going into service. We don't owe them a cent, and if they want to irrationally demand that younger people submit to state-sponsored slavery, they had best be joining in. Elsewise, they are just another illegitimate authority, and the only response to illigitimate authority is noncompliance. The Great War is the First World War, War to End All Wars etc. And old people shouldn’t have to enslave the younger generation; the kids should be willing to help the older generation for what they have done. Or did you live in a cave with absolutely no adult interaction whatsoever.

Newsflash, I’m 15. Kids do give a fuck what the authority say, at least the ones with half-decent parents and modicum of common sense do. I’v seen kids like you at school, the ones that question authority and end up ruining it for everybody for NO good reason.

Questioning authority doesn't mean act against it. It simply means don't blindly follow authority figures because they are fallable. If a teacher started to teach you 2 + 2 = 75 would you accept their authority or question it?

A child with half decent parents and a modicum of common sense would have learnt to look at the world with a critical eye and not just accept something without questioning it

No one should be forced to fight for a cause they don't agree with.

Question authority doesn't mean act against it. It simply means don't blindly follow authority figures because they are fallable. If a teacher started to teach you 2 + 2 = 75 would you accept their authority or question it?

A child with half decent parents and a modicum of common sense would have learnt to look at the world with a critical eye and not just accept something without questioning it Well school is a wee bit diferent isnt it, and of cource you can question the goveremnt. But he seems to think that if we dont question it and dont rebel against it (non-violent, like goths) then it will become tyranic and be the end of us.

Newsflash, I’m 15. Kids do give a fuck what the authority say, at least the ones with half-decent parents and modicum of common sense do. I’v seen kids like you at school, the ones that question authority and end up ruining it for everybody for NO good reason. Now my local council is an authority with quite a bit of power and have been going for decades, and they haven’t become tyrannical. Neither has my Government thank you very much. If you knew anything about NI you would know people have been fighting for hundreds of years and that the IRA does have a political side which recently announced the dis-arming of all its members. To be honest to be peacefully not a part of the British state in Ireland you have to go to the south or risk having your house fire-bombed.

Funny. My parents were and are amazing, without being stupid disciplinarians. See, I was raised in a family where questioning everything was the first lesson we were taught. That's what happens when both of your parents have PHds. Would you like me to insult your parents perhaps? Accuse you of being raised by the BNP? Troll elsewhere, please.

Questioning authority is a necessity. Now, maybe your council isn't quesitoned by you, but it is almost certainly questioned. Unquestioned authority leads to fascism (I didn't say Hitler! No, not the Godwin!!!!).

The Great War is the First World War, War to End All Wars etc. And old people shouldn’t have to enslave the younger generation; the kids should be willing to help the older generation for what they have done. Or did you live in a cave with absolutely no adult interaction whatsoever.\

Ah. Yeah, WWI was a total fucking waste, fought over nothing but nationalism and oligarchy. It was a bullshit war over power, and a waste of lives. Worse yet, Britain and France, by rejecting Wilson's plan, set the stage for WWII and the rise of Communism in the 3rd world. Beyond that, their greed set up the current problems in the Middle East.

I owe old folks nothing that I don't choose to owe them. I won't go fight the wars that they vote for and they set up. I didn't have a say in one of these damn wars. Until every one of THEM has gone to war, I'm not going for them.

Well school is a wee bit diferent isnt it, and of cource you can question the goveremnt. But he seems to think that if we dont question it and dont rebel against it (non-violent, like goths) then it will become tyranic and be the end of us.

And he's right. We, the population, keep the government in check. They are there to serve us. Not the other way around

Just think of all those groups throughout history who have protested, etc against the government to achieve equal rights

Compulsory military service in New Zealand? Lol, I think not.

Funny. My parents were and are amazing, without being stupid disciplinarians. See, I was raised in a family where questioning everything was the first lesson we were taught. That's what happens when both of your parents have PHds. Would you like me to insult your parents perhaps? Accuse you of being raised by the BNP? Troll elsewhere, please.

Questioning authority is a necessity. Now, maybe your council isn't quesitoned by you, but it is almost certainly questioned. Unquestioned authority leads to fascism (I didn't say Hitler! No, not the Godwin!!!!).Well are your parents an authority, do you rebel and question them. I don’t because I live with them; they feed me and give me money etc. The same goes for the government. They make sure I have running water, a good school and electricity so why should I rebel. Fact is the British Government isn’t going to convert to fascism for many reasons, least of which is people not questioning in. And anyway that is why we have the House of Lords And what exactly is a "troll"?
.
Ah. Yeah, WWI was a total fucking waste, fought over nothing but nationalism and oligarchy. It was a bullshit war over power, and a waste of lives. Worse yet, Britain and France, by rejecting Wilson's plan, set the stage for WWII and the rise of Communism in the 3rd world. Beyond that, their greed set up the current problems in the Middle East. So what would you do if a country near you suddenly started strengthening its armed forces and preparing for war against you, your overseas territory and other countries around you? And for the record The British Government preferred Wilson’s plan but they would have been kicked out if they didn’t show a hard line approach, just shows what happens when people question the government.

While civil liberties are something to be kept in mind, it's easy to forget the vast pros of compulsory military service. If we had a draft, for example, going into the Iraq war, we probably wouldn't be in the mess we are now, simply because of manpower. In an interview with CNN, one major general of the Armed forces (I honestly can't pull up his name in my memory now, though I do remember he's retired at this point) was noted as saying that we are stretched too thin in the Army, and that we simply didn't have enough forces to be fighting two wars at the same time - in Iraq and Afghanistan. Less than 1% of the population of the United States chooses to be in any kind of military service, and that takes a huge toll on the Army in time of war. The other major thing to avoid here is using private contractors in the Army, which are, while a seemingly tantalizing and simple option, mercenary at best of times. Were we to have a conscription at the time of the Gulf war, for another example, we wouldn't have relied on private contractors and done some of the evil things we did (like causing the death of about 5 million kids with our 'strategic' bombing of water treatment plants), because we would've had the sheer, simple manpower to hold our ground without resorting to morally ambiguous tactics. Succinctly, what we have the ability to avoid using a compulsory military service has to be weighed against one point in civil liberty. Oh, and a compulsory military service is actually more 'fair' in that everyone has to be in the Army. We've had to lower our standards because a lot of people who apply to be in the Army are uneducated, unstable, and just not very good candidates for protecting our country.

Well are your parents an authority, do you rebel and question them. I don’t because I live with them; they feed me and give me money etc. The same goes for the government. They make sure I have running water, a good school and electricity so why should I rebel. Fact is the British Government isn’t going to convert to fascism for many reasons, least of which is people not questioning in. And what exactly is a "troll"?

Yes, I question my parents regularly. Anyone who doesn't has an unhealthy relationship with their parents. If you don't question your parents, you never grow up.

Why should you question the government? Because if you don't, it will feel that it can act without being stopped, and human nature will lead to a totalitarian state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

Well are your parents an authority, do you rebel and question them. I don’t because I live with them; they feed me and give me money etc. The same goes for the government. They make sure I have running water, a good school and electricity so why should I rebel. Fact is the British Government isn’t going to convert to fascism for many reasons, least of which is people not questioning in. And what exactly is a "troll"?

You would never question your parents? My Dad can be pretty racist sometimes but thankfully I questioned his view of the world and chose a different one for myself. Damn shame I didn't go with the 'virtue' of blind acceptance. I love how you admit that you can be bought by the way ;)

As for the government, this comes to mind :

Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely

Meaning

Literal meaning.

Origin

This arose as a quotation by Lord Acton in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton in 1887:

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

William Pitt the Younger, The Earl of Chatham and British Prime Minister from 1766 to 1778, is sometimes wrongly attributed as the source. He did say something similar though, in a speech to the UK House of Lords in 1770:

"Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it"

You would never question your parents? My Dad can be pretty racist sometimes but thankfully I questioned his view of the world and chose a different one for myself. Damn shame I didn't go with the 'virtue' of blind acceptance. I love how you admit that you can be bought by the way Not in a way that would lead to arguments and disagreements. The phrase "Don’t bite the hand that feeds you" springs to mind. This doesn’t mean I don’t talk to my parents.

Not in a way that would lead to arguments and disagreements. The phrase "Don’t bite the hand that feeds you" springs to mind. This doesn’t mean I don’t talk to my parents.

Biting the hand that feeds you is necessary in the process of becoming an independant, mature, adult. If you depend on your parents for everything from your opinions to your wellbeing, you will never learn to handle either yourself.

Well are your parents an authority, do you rebel and question them. I don’t because I live with them; they feed me and give me money etc.

If they suddenly terminate the flow of money and food, then will you ask yourself "Is this reasonable?", or will you remain unquestioning?

Not in a way that would lead to arguments and disagreements. The phrase "Don’t bite the hand that feeds you" springs to mind.

Cats are clearly good at judging personalities. Mine knows that if he bites the hand that feeds him, the hand will feel that it's not doing a good enough job.

Ironic analogy?? Well, if you want.

Biting the hand that feeds you is necessary in the process of becoming an independant, mature, adult. If you depend on your parents for everything from your opinions to your wellbeing, you will never learn to handle either yourself.I have differing views to both my parents. And you don’t have to rebel to become a mature adult. My granddad sure as hell dint rebel against his dad and he was an independent, mature adult. If you don’t respect your parents and argue too much there is far more of a chance you won’t have the support you need when you’re at university etc.

ok before i get into all of this chit chat can i just ask which option did you all vote for to begin with or has the thread become something more than the title and poll denote

Not in a way that would lead to arguments and disagreements. The phrase "Don’t bite the hand that feeds you" springs to mind. This doesn’t mean I don’t talk to my parents.

If we're going to use the example in bold you might want to remember that it's the taxpayers that pay the politicians and for the many things the government provides. Therefore they shouldn't be biting our hands. They should be doing what we tell them

If they suddenly terminate the flow of money and food, then will you ask yourself "Is this reasonable?", or will you remain unquestioning?That’s the thing, they won’t cut of the supplies if I don’t rebel, and its not just that I don’t want to argue with my parents. You don’t seem to be getting it, don’t rebel and constantly ask questions and you will get on better with people. Nobody likes a smart arse.

That’s the thing, they won’t cut of the supplies if I don’t rebel, and its not just that I don’t want to argue with my parents. You don’t seem to be getting it, don’t rebel and constantly ask questions and you will get on better with people. Nobody likes a smart arse.

Nobody likes someone who can be bought

I find it quite funny that towards the start of this thread you were all for defending your country against invasion and yet now you're saying you shouldn't disagree with the more powerful force because it just makes life difficult

....They should be doing what we tell them

well they should but you need to remember that people think of the government as a machine and and forget that there are people in it that are both human and able to be corrupted

well they should but you need to remember that people think of the government as a machine and and forget that there are people in it that are both human and able to be corrupted

Which is why i'm arguing that they should be questioned. I think i've shown that i've remembered that

Nobody likes someone who can be bought

I find it quite funny that towards the start of this thread you were all for defending your country against invasion and yet now you're saying you shouldn't disagree with the more powerful force because it just makes life difficult I find it funny that you don’t see the huge difference in situations. And its not being bought, its being polite and sensible.

I find it funny that you don’t see the huge difference in situations. And its not being bought, its being polite and sensible.

So you can't rebel and be polite at the same time? Say, for example, politely holding a peaceful demonstration, etc?

What exactly is the difference might I ask? In one scenario you're keeping quiet about your beliefs and principles for an easy life and in the other you're keeping quiet about your principles and beliefs for an easier life. The only difference is the scale as far as I can see although i'd be happy to be corrected

Service gurantees citizenship!

Service gurantees citizenship!

Everyone is entitled to citizenship. "Service" is not an obligation. I'm not obligated to any country.