NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=IGAHG33FIYEL1QFIQMGSFFOAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2007/07/28/wirq128.xml

Relations between the top United States general in Iraq and Nouri al-Maliki, the country's prime minister, are so bad that the Iraqi leader made a direct appeal for his removal to President George W Bush.

Although the call was rejected, aides to both men admit that Mr Maliki and Gen David Petraeus engage in frequent stand-up shouting matches, differing particularly over the US general's moves to arm Sunni tribesmen to fight al-Qa'eda.

One Iraqi source said Mr Maliki used a video conference with Mr Bush to call for the general's signature strategy to be scrapped. "He told Bush that if Petraeus continues, he would arm Shia militias," said the official. "Bush told Maliki to calm down."

With yet another wonderful indication of the ability of our leaders to work together (not to even mention further indication that Al Maliki is acting with the benefit of Shia groups as his primary concern, rather than all of Iraq), we can expect a truly positive progress report after months of this inane surge.

Leaders of the Iraqi parliament have signed a petition asking us to leave, the majority in America want us to leave, our military leader is driving away our sole political ally in Iraq, and the Iraqi people think we are not helping them. Why are we still fighting this stupid war?

Has the Iraqi Parliament even accomplished anything yet?

Has the Iraqi Parliament even accomplished anything yet?

They managed to go on vacation! That's surely worth something, isn't it?

Hey, it's better than the Parliament of the Republic of China. At least the Iraqis aren't having weekly fistfights... :D

The Iraqi government is a sham...frankly, I don't trust al-Maliki at all. He and the rest of his ilk are up to the eyeballs in supporting sectional tensions. I bet he's getting pressure from the militias to try and replace Petraeus with someone less willing to take aggressive action against the militias.

I trust Petraeus as much or less than the Iraqi government. He is in charge because he is a yes-man. The Iraq strategy is loaded with incompetence and idiotic oversight.

I trust Petraeus as much or less than the Iraqi government. He is in charge because he is a yes-man. The Iraq strategy is loaded with incompetence and idiotic oversight.

Petraeus is the first guy to say that this war will not be over for a long time...that's something none of the "insurgency is in its last throes" bullshitters ever had the balls to say during their time in Iraq. He's far better than anything we've had before in Iraq.

Why are we still fighting this stupid war?

Because 'pulling out' sounds unmanly and in a prick-waving dick fight, manliness is everything. *nod*

Petraeus is the first guy to say that this war will not be over for a long time...that's something none of the "insurgency is in its last throes" bullshitters ever had the balls to say during their time in Iraq. He's far better than anything we've had before in Iraq.

I trust Petraieus more than I've trusted anyone else Bush has mentioned by name in the last four years. He's kind of cute, too.

Because 'pulling out' sounds unmanly and in a prick-waving dick fight, manliness is everything. *nod*

If you had a vagina I'd be all over you.

Maybe the goal now is to deliberately piss off the Iraqi government so much that we have an excuse to "liberate" them AGAIN.

Then we can have another "Mission Accomplished" photo op! It'll be like winding back the clock a few years to when Bush was somewhat popular!

Petraeus ... far better than anything we've had before in Iraq.

That's really a bleak summary of the whole bloody situation, isn't it?

Because 'pulling out' sounds unmanly and in a prick-waving dick fight, manliness is everything. *nod*

Iraq is our bitch, and frankly the old skank just ain't doing it for us anymore. You gotta stop pounding and pull out eventually or your willy gets chafed, and that sucks!

Hey, it's better than the Parliament of the Republic of China. At least the Iraqis aren't having weekly fistfights... :D

Thats Taiwan. Thing about Taiwan is they seem to do ok.

Because 'pulling out' sounds unmanly and in a prick-waving dick fight, manliness is everything. *nod*
On the contrary, it sounds manly.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=IGAHG33FIYEL1QFIQMGSFFOAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2007/07/28/wirq128.xml



With yet another wonderful indication of the ability of our leaders to work together (not to even mention further indication that Al Maliki is acting with the benefit of Shia groups as his primary concern, rather than all of Iraq), we can expect a truly positive progress report after months of this inane surge.

Leaders of the Iraqi parliament have signed a petition asking us to leave, the majority in America want us to leave, our military leader is driving away our sole political ally in Iraq, and the Iraqi people think we are not helping them. Why are we still fighting this stupid war?

Call me a cynical bastard, but there isn't much hope. The Middle East is like a powder keg, and there are a lot of clowns who think it's funny to light the fuse.

Call me a cynical bastard, but there isn't much hope. The Middle East is like a powder keg, and there are a lot of clowns who think it's funny to light the fuse.

You can even see a couple of them on NSG, usually the ones who'd think Muslims are a bigger evil than Satan.

You can even see a couple of them on NSG, usually the ones who'd think Muslims are a bigger evil than Satan.

Yeah. Not just them, but some idiots who live there and have been hit over the head with a Koran too many times.

Why are we still fighting this stupid war?
For the same reasons you started that stupid war in the first place?

For the same reasons you started that stupid war in the first place?

Which same reason? The WMDs weren't there? Making the world safe for that failed state which masquerades as a Democracy? Deposing Saddam? Holding Cirque de Saddam? None of those seems to be particularly valid.

Which same reason? The WMDs weren't there? Making the world safe for that failed state which masquerades as a Democracy? Deposing Saddam? Holding Cirque de Saddam? None of those seems to be particularly valid.
Exactly - there were no valid reasons whatsoever to turn Iraq into what you've turned it into - whatever that is now; and the only reason I could think of to stay there is to keep the situation from getting worse, which, to be honest, I don't see happening with or without your presence there anyway. It's way too fucked up - and sadly enough, everybody but those in charge knew that beforehand.

The way the British have established that country with disregard to its ethnic populations is what will cause more problems in the future - and while Saddam surely was a bastard, he at least kept the lid on the different fractions that now battle against each other and against the occupying forces.

Cirque de Saddam

I'll say "win" here, but it'd be nice if someone pointed it out when I won too. ;)

I'll say "win" here, but it'd be nice if someone pointed it out when I won too. ;)

I'll keep that in mind. ;)

However, to be fair, I stole that phrase from a friend.

I'll keep that in mind. ;)

However, to be fair, I stole that phrase from a friend.

In which case he wins the thread. :p

On the contrary, it sounds manly.

Yes, its the old (Democrat) tactic: call for a pull-out, then blame Bush for the subsequent implosion of Iraq (or take the credit if by some miracle the place stabilises following a cut-and-run) or use Iraq as a stick to beat the Republican Party for a few more decades.
Either way they can't lose, unless they actually end up in the White House in 2008 and realise that their vague hand-waving policies don't actually work in the real-world, and that a lot of people hate America for being successful, not due to Iraq, Afghanistan.

Funny that they quite openly seem more interested in regaining power than the future of the Middle East.
Th US pulls out...then what?
A nice UN conference with a couple of years of thumb-twiddling and not much else.
But of course Billary will claim the moral high-ground as a "peacemaker" or rather "peace-talker".

Still, at least Dubya has the stones to say "We screwed up, but we're gonna stay and fix it", not like Slick Willy and his gutless tenure in the White House: Somalia, Rwanda Bosnia, Kosovo,North Korea...
Ooohhh, lets run away and pretend they aren't problems, beacuse that worked before! And our good pals the Russians and Chinese will definitely be up for spreading warm fuzzy feel-good democracy world-wide ;)

If you had a vagina I'd be all over you.

:confused: Thanks?

Ooohhh, lets run away and pretend they aren't problems

You mean the problems the US caused when it decided to rape Iraq, murder its population and mug their belongings, which it did under Bush's rule? Why in the darkest depths of Hell would anyone with anything remotely resembling sanity trust the Republicans NOT to keep doing what they did?

That's really a bleak summary of the whole bloody situation, isn't it?

Better than "worse than anyone we've had before"...

You mean the problems the US caused when it decided to rape Iraq, murder its population and mug their belongings, which it did under Bush's rule? Why in the darkest depths of Hell would anyone with anything remotely resembling sanity trust the Republicans NOT to keep doing what they did?

Iraq's been raped, murdered and mugged for 50 years. As sad as it is, what is happening now is just a continuation of what happened before. At the very least, however, there is the hope that the situation will stabilize and will present a real future for Iraq.

We can't leave, that's for sure. Pulling out is simply impossible.

there is the hope that the situation will stabilize

How long are you going to wait?

How much money are you going to waste on a hopeless project that hasn't accomplished much in four years and now has the opposition of both the American and the Iraqi population?

How long are you going to wait?

How much money are you going to waste on a hopeless project that hasn't accomplished much in four years and now has the opposition of both the American and the Iraqi population?

We don't have a choice. There is no way we can leave now without a causing a complete and utter humanitarian disaster that goes above and beyond anything the US occupation or Saddam himself has ever done. There isn't a NVA with functioning government and widespread support ready to take control of the country once we leave...all there will be is a bloody vaccum, one that could end up drawing in everyone around it.

We made this mess, and we have a responsibility to clean it up. Otherwise, we'll have not only far more blood on our hands but irreparable damage to our reputation and international standing. The 70+% of the US population that was so gung-ho about this war back in 2003 is ignorant of just how serious this war really is. This isn't some kind of imperial adventure that can just be cleaned up and forgotten if things don't play out; if we fail in Iraq, or if we allow it to collapse, we will be in serious trouble.

Even if we pull out now, it will take years before it is complete.

Iraq's been raped, murdered and mugged for 50 years. As sad as it is, what is happening now is just a continuation of what happened before. At the very least, however, there is the hope that the situation will stabilize and will present a real future for Iraq.

We can't leave, that's for sure. Pulling out is simply impossible.

Indeed I can't think of anything more like a rape:

"Saddam was a dictator" = "she was wearing skimpy clothes".

"We were allies when it was against Iran" = "I dated her once and we were fine".

Then again, you're not supporting that part. You ARE, however, on the other kind of sideline:

"She can't have an abortion now, even if the baby came from a rape, it's not her right to decide, she has to carry it to term".

We don't have a choice. There is no way we can leave now without a causing a complete and utter humanitarian disaster that goes above and beyond anything the US occupation or Saddam himself has ever done.

Yes, right.

And if we stay, we get to have the same complete and utter humanitarian disaster, if in slow motion... for now, anyway.

Only we also continue throwing away billions of dollars at the problem, our troops continue to die, we continue killing Iraqis, we continue angering the world generally and Arab Muslims specifically... and since we can't stay forever, we'll get that complete and utter humanitarian disaster whatever we do.

It's time to give up thinking we can solve this problem, because we can't; if anything we just make it worse.

Maybe the goal now is to deliberately piss off the Iraqi government so much that we have an excuse to "liberate" them AGAIN.

Almost right. The goal is to make the average American think that Iraq is ungrateful, so that it won't look as bad when we leave.

We don't have a choice. There is no way we can leave now without a causing a complete and utter humanitarian disaster that goes above and beyond anything the US occupation or Saddam himself has ever done. There isn't a NVA with functioning government and widespread support ready to take control of the country once we leave...all there will be is a bloody vaccum, one that could end up drawing in everyone around it.

We made this mess, and we have a responsibility to clean it up. Otherwise, we'll have not only far more blood on our hands but irreparable damage to our reputation and international standing. The 70+% of the US population that was so gung-ho about this war back in 2003 is ignorant of just how serious this war really is. This isn't some kind of imperial adventure that can just be cleaned up and forgotten if things don't play out; if we fail in Iraq, or if we allow it to collapse, we will be in serious trouble.

Even if we pull out now, it will take years before it is complete.

So it looks like Beloved Dear Leader has gone true to form and fucked over yet another company he was placed in charge of running. And of course by 2009 he'll be out of office which means he won't be held accountable for the disheveled piece of shit that used to be a superpower that the next President Democrat, Republican or Other will have to take charge of and clean up.

A "Good Christian Man" has left a legacy all right: A giant cesspool of a drain on national budget and manpower than the country can't pull out of any more than the Little Dutch Boy could pull out of the dike.

My thanks to every Bushevik who couldn't get over their popularity contest obcession with Kerry's personality and re-elected this bankrupting dumbfuck to leave the nation where it is at this point.

You killed America. Not Osama Bin Ladin.

Let me make a comment on this, I think the US administration secretly wants to pull out, but that they want to give the Sunni side a chance of winning once they do.

Let me make a comment on this, I think the US administration secretly wants to pull out, but that they want to give the Sunni side a chance of winning once they do.

i think youre probably right.

we dont really want to hand iraq to the shiites who side with iran.

i think youre probably right.

we dont really want to hand iraq to the shiites who side with iran.

Yet guess whose decision to make this is?

Yet guess whose decision to make this is?

what do you mean?

Dear God. This is the worst fucking occupation ever.

Dear God. This is the worst fucking occupation ever.

is it really that different from our experience in vietnam?

we partitioned the country, founded a puppet government, and it didnt work. people died. we couldnt tell friend from foe. we couldnt figure out how to get the hell out. bad things happened. we abandoned our friends. massacres ensued.

what do you mean?

I mean that the decision to support whatever they wish is the Iraqis'.

I mean that the decision to support whatever they wish is the Iraqis'.

sort of.

that kind of depends on what kind of government they will end up with after we leave. we have set up this baby democracy but it has little power. if it survives, it will be up to the people; if it doesnt, it will be up to whoever wins the civil war.

but yeah, i guess no matter what, its not going to be our decision.

is it really that different from our experience in vietnam?

we partitioned the country, founded a puppet government, and it didnt work. people died. we couldnt tell friend from foe. we couldnt figure out how to get the hell out. bad things happened. we abandoned our friends. massacres ensued.

Well, I can't really say from experience whether this is like Vietnam. The parallels as far as what's actually happening are undeniable, but the people running this occupation have lent it such a unique air of absurdity that it's hard to imagine Vietnam being similar in that regard.

Well, I can't really say from experience whether this is like Vietnam. The parallels as far as what's actually happening are undeniable, but the people running this occupation have lent it such a unique air of absurdity that it's hard to imagine Vietnam being similar in that regard.

it is reaching but we had no more understanding of the vietnamese then than we do of the iraqis now.

I just help but wonder how many deaths could have been avoiding if debaathification had not taken place, and if the old army and civil service had not been disbanded.

I just help but wonder how many deaths could have been avoiding if debaathification had not taken place, and if the old army and civil service had not been disbanded.

that was one of the biggest mistakes we made. especially since everyone with any amount of authority had to be a party member whether or not they supported the party.

but yeah, i guess no matter what, its not going to be our decision.

Neither should it be. It's not your country. Then again, Brazil wasn't supposed to be the US's country in 1964 and yet...

Hey, it's better than the Parliament of the Republic of China. At least the Iraqis aren't having weekly fistfights... :D

How is that better? Boring? Yes, but most certainly not better.

50$ on Hyung Tzu during next weeks Chinese Parliamentry Congression.

Yes, its the old (Democrat) tactic: call for a pull-out, then blame Bush for the subsequent implosion of Iraq (or take the credit if by some miracle the place stabilises following a cut-and-run) or use Iraq as a stick to beat the Republican Party for a few more decades.
Either way they can't lose, unless they actually end up in the White House in 2008 and realise that their vague hand-waving policies don't actually work in the real-world, and that a lot of people hate America for being successful, not due to Iraq, Afghanistan.

Funny that they quite openly seem more interested in regaining power than the future of the Middle East.
Th US pulls out...then what?
A nice UN conference with a couple of years of thumb-twiddling and not much else.
But of course Billary will claim the moral high-ground as a "peacemaker" or rather "peace-talker".

Still, at least Dubya has the stones to say "We screwed up, but we're gonna stay and fix it", not like Slick Willy and his gutless tenure in the White House: Somalia, Rwanda Bosnia, Kosovo,North Korea...
Ooohhh, lets run away and pretend they aren't problems, beacuse that worked before! And our good pals the Russians and Chinese will definitely be up for spreading warm fuzzy feel-good democracy world-wide ;)

I am SOOOOO sick of this fucking bullshit circle-jerking by conservatives!!! The Iraqi civilians hate us, the government has blatantly asked us to leave, not once, but TWICE! What the hell else does our government need in order to get the fucking message?? They WANT us gone. They WANT us gone. They WANT us gone. Is that good enough?

They managed to go on vacation! That's surely worth something, isn't it?

Yeah, but i heard they lost most of their luggage somehow.
Must be some KBR contract that did the ramps or delivery.

They managed to go on vacation! That's surely worth something, isn't it?

sounds like they are following the American congress very closely. next movement should be to give themselves a pay increase.

their next election should look alot like ours to and be based on who has a bigger you tube fan base than the other and offer for "adoring fans" to make theme songs for their campaign.

sounds like they are following the American congress very closely. next movement should be to give themselves a pay increase.

their next election should look alot like ours to and be based on who has a bigger you tube fan base than the other and offer for "adoring fans" to make theme songs for their campaign.

IIRC they actually took the vacation specifically to avoid bringing the proposed oil law, that the U.S. is strongarming them with, to the floor.

IIRC they actually took the vacation specifically to avoid bringing the proposed oil law, that the U.S. is strongarming them with, to the floor.

But ... but ... that would mean that this whole thing is OIL- (and thus politically-) motivated, at cost to the U.S. taxpayer and military family populace?
NOOOOOOOOOOOthat would mean rightwingers and certain posters here would be ... *gasp* ... liars, cowards, and malicious pricks!
Well, it might be saying that. Is it?

But ... but ... that would mean that this whole thing is OIL- (and thus politically-) motivated, at cost to the U.S. taxpayer and military family populace?


http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/stevebell/0,,2120204,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/stevebell/0,,2120204,00.html

Argh. That cinches it.
After the volumes and VOLUMES of evidence pointing as such, i still might have been willing to accept my president's good word at face value, as well as all the right wing media blitzing, that there were no ulterior motives.

But now, i am a changed being. Perhaps this president Bush really, really does hate the troops. As do all who have been goading and antagonizing the people to fight while themselves cowering and counting change.