NationStates Jolt Archive

July 26, 2007; 7:59 PM
SAN FRANCISCO -- Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman's forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player's death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.

"The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described," a doctor who examined Tillman's body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.
...
The medical examiners' suspicions were outlined in 2,300 pages of testimony released to the AP this week by the Defense Department in response to a Freedom of Information Act request.

Among other information contained in the documents:

_ Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments.

_ The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman's death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn't recall details of his actions.

_ No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene _ no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.

The Pentagon and the Bush administration have been criticized in recent months for lying about the circumstances of Tillman's death. The military initially told the public and the Tillman family that he had been killed by enemy fire.
Sources: WP/AP/Yahoo/OccNEWS

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/26/AR2007072602025_pf.html

Next thing they are going to tell me.. is that Bush is using his presidential special powers to hide all this from Tillman's family.

The longer this story goes on, the weirder it gets.

No weirder than the usual dog and pony show we usually get around here by the likes of FAG and RO.

Anyone think there's going to be a bunch of denouncements against Pat Tillman and his mother as this thing grinds on?

No weirder than the usual dog and pony show we usually get around here by the likes of FAG and RO.

Anyone think there's going to be a bunch of denouncements against Pat Tillman and his mother as this thing grinds on?

Oh, count on it. I'd guess before post #20.

So what's this implying? Someone in his squad/troop shot him deliberately? Or what?

I can't really imagine what the motive would be if it was murder. The guy was apparently dedicated, and good for PR to boot. Weird stuff.

The general is getting a demotion. That says alot about the Tillman affair.

So what's this implying? Someone in his squad/troop shot him deliberately? Or what?

Yeah, the implication is that Tillman was fragged and it was covered up.

Yeah, the implication is that Tillman was fragged and it was covered up.

As you said, bizarre. Especially since "fragging" is an exceedingly rare thing these days. Still, things look as though that may be the case. Again, as you said, this gets more and more bizarre as time goes on.

Yeah, the implication is that Tillman was fragged and it was covered up.

I thought that sort of thing pretty much stopped after Vietnam. Doubly weird since wasn't he a Ranger?

I wonder why.

I thought that sort of thing pretty much stopped after Vietnam. Doubly weird since wasn't he a Ranger?

I wonder why.

It sure does sound like it was fragging. I also wonder what was going on that we are not hearing about. I have served with some real assholes but would have never thought about killing them even if I had a chance to.

Tktktktktktktktktktktktk Omg

I thought that sort of thing pretty much stopped after Vietnam. Doubly weird since wasn't he a Ranger?

I wonder why.

As you said, bizarre. Especially since "fragging" is an exceedingly rare thing these days. Still, things look as though that may be the case. Again, as you said, this gets more and more bizarre as time goes on.

It sure does sound like it was fragging. I also wonder what was going on that we are not hearing about. I have served with some real assholes but would have never thought about killing them even if I had a chance to.

Especially bizarre because the White House is refusing to release any more documentation citing "executive privilege." They're gonna executive privilege themselves right into an impeachment hearing.

Especially bizarre because the White House is refusing to release any more documentation citing "executive privilege." They're gonna executive privilege themselves right into an impeachment hearing.

If it was a fragging though, what would the White House really know about it though. (Or anyone outside of Tillman's squad for that matter).

Yeah, the implication is that Tillman was fragged and it was covered up.

Indeed.

As you said, bizarre. Especially since "fragging" is an exceedingly rare thing these days. Still, things look as though that may be the case. Again, as you said, this gets more and more bizarre as time goes on.

It's confirmed to have happened a couple of times in Iraq.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasan_Akbar
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174104,00.html

And there certainl;y are rumors about Afghanistan.

All the open lying and stonewalling and whitewashing in this case indicates that there is something worth hiding, probably that he was deliberately murdered, for who knows what reason.

If it was a fragging though, what would the White House really know about it though. (Or anyone outside of Tillman's squad for that matter).

Good question--why would the White House refuse to turn over any documentation whatsoever about the case? What sort of privilege could they possibly claim?

Unless they were involved in the original spin. It seems a bit of a Rovian type of deal, no? Tillman was a hero, an NFL player who gave up a 6-figure salary to enlist after the 9/11 attacks, and who was already vocal to his fellow squadmembers about how he felt the Iraq War was bullshit. Is it possible that the White House had something to do with the story? Not the killing--I'm not that conspiracy minded--but I can certainly see the post-killing spin.

It's confirmed to have happened a couple of times in Iraq.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasan_Akbar
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174104,00.html

And there certainl;y are rumors about Afghanistan.

Yes, I'm aware of the incident involving SGT Akbar. I was getting my predeployment shots and such the day that happened and saw it on CNN at the troop medical clinic. That particular incident is why I said "exceedingly rare" as opposed to denying their existence.

Good question--why would the White House refuse to turn over any documentation whatsoever about the case? What sort of privilege could they possibly claim?

Unless they were involved in the original spin. It seems a bit of a Rovian type of deal, no? Tillman was a hero, an NFL player who gave up a 6-figure salary to enlist after the 9/11 attacks, and who was already vocal to his fellow squadmembers about how he felt the Iraq War was bullshit. Is it possible that the White House had something to do with the story? Not the killing--I'm not that conspiracy minded--but I can certainly see the post-killing spin.

Yeah.

I could see the White House getting involved after the fact and meddling with the investigation because of Tillman's high profile, and maybe they told people to back off from asking too many questions or to circumvent normal procedures, and now they don't want that to come out.

Possibly, it even results from some sort of half arsed idea that they were protecting his 'reputation' as a hero or something. Anything is possible with those half wits I suppose.

I'm really more interested as to why someone would frag Tillman in the first place.

Yeah.

I could see the White House getting involved after the fact and meddling with the investigation because of Tillman's high profile, and maybe they told people to back off from asking too many questions or to circumvent normal procedures, and now they don't want that to come out.
I think that's exactly what the WH did. Those people lie like they think kittens will cry if they don't. And when they get caught, they go to insane lengths to protect their lies, no matter how self-destructive it may be.

Look at the DoJ attorney firings: Bush was perfectly within his rights to fire as many attorneys as he liked for any reason he liked. If they had been let go with decent references, no one would have questioned who they were replaced with or why. But no -- they had to make up lies about the attorneys' work records and then dig their heels in when the attorneys complained about it. Result - a humiliating, on-going public spectacle.

Same here with the Tillman tragedy. They decided to try to make Tillman be some kind of poster boy, regardless of his lack of belief in the war, and it just won't do to have a war hero shot in the head by his own platoon mates, or whatever. Not good for recruitment. So they made up lies about Tillman, and when they get caught, they fight to save the lie while ignoring a potential murder - and a potential murderer in the US ranks.
Let's you know where their priorities lie.

Possibly, it even results from some sort of half arsed idea that they were protecting his 'reputation' as a hero or something. Anything is possible with those half wits I suppose.
While I agree there's not much that's beyond those half wits, I do not think they do anything out of any desire to be helpful or pleasant to anyone.

I'm really more interested as to why someone would frag Tillman in the first place.
Me too. I was under the impression that the US military frowned upon its members murdering each other. Maybe they wouldn't want to investigate publicly -- and might even try to cover it up -- but I can't believe they would just ignore it in favor of some political fiction.

The fact that is was fratricide is not in dispute.
The short and gruesome:
Pat Tillman was with allied Afghani fighters.

US Soldiers opened fire on them and killed him.

A full military investigation was done, determined it was friendly fire, and the solider was punished. That investigation is not what was initially given to the family. There is always the fog of war to consider, and casualty reports are relayed a long way from the battlefield back to the family, and all it takes is one person's word choice, intentional or unintentional to change a story.
Just because there is a lack of public information on this friendly fire killing, doesn't mean one can jump to accusing intentional murder.

The point of the coverup is obvious. Someone high profile like that not only dies in service to the country, but also is killed by a fellow soldier. That's not just a nightmare for the Tillman family, the soldier who killed him and his unit... Its a public relations disaster for the nation, the administration and the army as well. If they didn't try to cover it up, or at least keep it under the radar, I would suspect foul play.

While I agree there's not much that's beyond those half wits, I do not think they do anything out of any desire to be helpful or pleasant to anyone.


I'm not saying they were doing it for his benefit. More they were worried that if it came out he was fragged then it might spoil the Tillman = Hero story they were pimping. Or trying to pimp.

I mean, just imagine the Courts Martial.

I'm not saying they were doing it for his benefit. More they were worried that if it came out he was fragged then it might spoil the Tillman = Hero story they were pimping. Or trying to pimp.

I mean, just imagine the Courts Martial.

Oh, I see. But I guess my main point was that they are yet again making a much bigger crisis than they need to. Let's be honest - you give people guns and someone is going to get shot. Murders in war zones happen -- not commonly, but not exactly uncommonly either (over history, I mean). But what is common is that the military in question will try to cover it up.

So, was Pat Tillman killed by his own side? Yes.

Was it murder or accidental friendly fire? Unknown. The most recently released info implies that there is something to investigate there.

Is this story harmful to the Bush admin's attempts to sell their war? Well, it might have been, if it had come out earlier. As it is, I don't see what damage there is left to be done to that vicious mess.

Is the Bush admin's refusal to cooperate in resolving this matter prompting people to suspect the worst of them (again)? Yes, it is.

Is there really any reason for that? No, frankly, I do not think so. There is no reason for the WH to lie and stonewall as it has been doing -- except that that seems to be all they know how to do. Once again, they seem unsatisfied with the problem they got from life, and are determined to make it worse with bullshit they just made up for no reason at all.

Tktktktktktktktktktktktk Omg

WTFHAX!!

Good question--why would the White House refuse to turn over any documentation whatsoever about the case? What sort of privilege could they possibly claim?

Unless they were involved in the original spin. It seems a bit of a Rovian type of deal, no? Tillman was a hero, an NFL player who gave up a 6-figure salary to enlist after the 9/11 attacks, and who was already vocal to his fellow squadmembers about how he felt the Iraq War was bullshit. Is it possible that the White House had something to do with the story? Not the killing--I'm not that conspiracy minded--but I can certainly see the post-killing spin.

I'm not up on the whole story -- is that really true? Bully for Tillman if it is.

A triple-tap to the head in close formation (if I read the OP right) is decidedly deliberate. If Tillman were standing with some Afghans when the incident occurred, would those looking to shoot enemy combatants put three in the head like that? I guess I'm asking what the situation really was, and will we ever really know?

It sure does sound like it was fragging. I also wonder what was going on that we are not hearing about. I have served with some real assholes but would have never thought about killing them even if I had a chance to.

I have...had a SSgt or two that were up for a bullet in the back...merely as a need to insure they didn't lead me into a situation that was a no win thing...kinda like Iraq.

All the open lying and stonewalling and whitewashing in this case indicates that there is something worth hiding, probably that he was deliberately murdered, for who knows what reason.

I do not know but the General in charge of something is being demoted.

will we ever really know?No, Bush has used his joker-card AKA executive "privilege" to keep US in the dark

Next thing they are going to tell me.. is that Bush is using his presidential special powers to hide all this from Tillman's family.

Could have been accidental too. He was in a hole with a few other men at the time.

Any accidental pull on the trigger with the muzzle pointed the wrong way, and a three round burst hits him in the head.

While it's quite easy to prove he was shot at close range in the head, it's quite another thing to prove that it was intentional, no matter how hard you try.

Good question--why would the White House refuse to turn over any documentation whatsoever about the case? What sort of privilege could they possibly claim?

Unless they were involved in the original spin. It seems a bit of a Rovian type of deal, no? Tillman was a hero, an NFL player who gave up a 6-figure salary to enlist after the 9/11 attacks, and who was already vocal to his fellow squadmembers about how he felt the Iraq War was bullshit. Is it possible that the White House had something to do with the story? Not the killing--I'm not that conspiracy minded--but I can certainly see the post-killing spin.
Perhaps what happened is when he died the WH launched straight into the whole, "Dead Hero who gave up everything to defend our country" before checking with the facts first. A shock I know - the idea that this current admin might decide on a course of action before having all (or indeed any) of the facts.

Then once they had spun the whole 'Dead Hero' hype out all over the media, it was too late to retract. They decided it would be too politically damaging to themselves (who cares how his family might feel having the truth blocked to them) to admit he'd been fragged and that the WH had screwed up.

Thus they began stonewalling in the hope it'd go away.

Could have been anything.. we will never know, because Bush used his Joker Card.

I have the feeling that the actual concealment of information started at a much lower level.

Let me ask you a question:

Is Bush a crafty, cunning, super-intelligent, all-knowing mastermind with the ability to micromanage a conspiracy across the entire military hive mind?

Or do you still think Bush is a stupid idiot who can't tie his own shoes without help from Cheney?

Perhaps what happened is when he died the WH launched straight into the whole, "Dead Hero who gave up everything to defend our country" before checking with the facts first. A shock I know - the idea that this current admin might decide on a course of action before having all (or indeed any) of the facts.

Then once they had spun the whole 'Dead Hero' hype out all over the media, it was too late to retract. They decided it would be too politically damaging to themselves (who cares how his family might feel having the truth blocked to them) to admit he'd been fragged and that the WH had screwed up.

Thus they began stonewalling in the hope it'd go away.

Not to mention the fact that the unit itself probably knew right away it was a fuckup, and didn't want anyone higher in the chain of command to know what happened.

Considering the current actions against the chain of command it's apparent that at least that much happened.

I have the feeling that the actual concealment of information started at a much lower level.

Let me ask you a question:

Is Bush a crafty, cunning, super-intelligent, all-knowing mastermind with the ability to micromanage a conspiracy across the entire military hive mind?

Or do you still think Bush is a stupid idiot who can't tie his own shoes without help from Cheney?

Bush is a stupid idiot who can't tie his shoes without Cheney or Rove. The people he has around him? Fuckin' evil geniuses. Does that satisfy the Busheviks who believe that we state contradicting things about Our Lord and Savior George Walker Bush?

Not to mention the fact that the unit itself probably knew right away it was a fuckup, and didn't want anyone higher in the chain of command to know what happened.

Considering the current actions against the chain of command it's apparent that at least that much happened.
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't pressure from the WH to the command to glorify the incidence that led to his death.
At the bottom of the chain, knowing it was from friendly fire (or indeed an actual fragging) may well have stayed silent over a lot of the actuals rather than contradict what was coming down from up on high.

Not to mention the fact that the unit itself probably knew right away it was a fuckup, and didn't want anyone higher in the chain of command to know what happened.

Considering the current actions against the chain of command it's apparent that at least that much happened.

Yep. As the demotion of a 3 star general indicates.

Yep. As the demotion of a 3 star general indicates.

Tell me. What is the penalty for obstruction of justice in a (lets say it is) murder case?

Tell me. What is the penalty for obstruction of justice in a (lets say it is) murder case?

in some states...life.

Tell me. What is the penalty for obstruction of justice in a (lets say it is) murder case?

How should I know?

Tell me. What is the penalty for obstruction of justice in a (lets say it is) murder case?I would guess its something like a mandatory minimum 2-5 years in Jail..

The longer this story goes on, the weirder it gets.

I'd fully agree. This entire Pat Tillman thing has strayed from total strange to...The Twilight Zone!

As much fun as it is to speculate that Rove is in fact satan this is all extremely out there.

As much fun as it is to speculate that Rove is in fact satan this is all extremely out there.

I think it's little more than a horribly run PR operation. I mean, if you're going to toot someone's horn, at least get the story straight.

Tell me. What is the penalty for obstruction of justice in a (lets say it is) murder case?

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/mcm/bl134-36.htm

in some states...life.

But military falls under the UCMJ not state laws.

How should I know?

Search engines are you good buddies.

I would guess its something like a mandatory minimum 2-5 years in Jail..

Maximum punishment. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years.

See link above.

in some states...life.But military falls under the UCMJ not state laws.interesting..

So, if the Criminal court would give him a 3 years Jail sentence.. and the Military court thinks it should be just a "Dishonorable discharge+forfeiture of all pay and allowances."

The lesser military sentence prevails?

interesting..

So, if the Criminal court would give him a 3 years Jail sentence.. and the Military court thinks it should be just a "Dishonorable discharge+forfeiture of all pay and allowances."

The lesser military sentence prevails?

There's a lot that goes with a dishonorable discharge.

For example, an individual who has been discharged dishonorably cannot receive their military pension, cannot receive benefits, is forbidden from owning or purchasing firearms, and forgoes the vaunted access to VA hospitals. Three years in jail is three years in jail, a dishonorable discharge is something that follows you to the grave.

Now admittedly, covering up for murder should get a DD and a good two decades in jail. You might as well have been right there next to the guy committing the crime when it was carried out.

I think that's exactly what the WH did. Those people lie like they think kittens will cry if they don't. And when they get caught, they go to insane lengths to protect their lies, no matter how self-destructive it may be.

Look at the DoJ attorney firings: Bush was perfectly within his rights to fire as many attorneys as he liked for any reason he liked. If they had been let go with decent references, no one would have questioned who they were replaced with or why. But no -- they had to make up lies about the attorneys' work records and then dig their heels in when the attorneys complained about it. Result - a humiliating, on-going public spectacle.

Same here with the Tillman tragedy. They decided to try to make Tillman be some kind of poster boy, regardless of his lack of belief in the war, and it just won't do to have a war hero shot in the head by his own platoon mates, or whatever. Not good for recruitment. So they made up lies about Tillman, and when they get caught, they fight to save the lie while ignoring a potential murder - and a potential murderer in the US ranks.
Let's you know where their priorities lie.


While I agree there's not much that's beyond those half wits, I do not think they do anything out of any desire to be helpful or pleasant to anyone.


Me too. I was under the impression that the US military frowned upon its members murdering each other. Maybe they wouldn't want to investigate publicly -- and might even try to cover it up -- but I can't believe they would just ignore it in favor of some political fiction.

Tough act to follow.

interesting..

So, if the Criminal court would give him a 3 years Jail sentence.. and the Military court thinks it should be just a "Dishonorable discharge+forfeiture of all pay and allowances."

The lesser military sentence prevails?

The odds of a successful prosecution for that charge would be slim IMO. Probably cop a plea for a reduced charge and punishment.

Now admittedly, covering up for murder should get a DD and a good two decades in jail. You might as well have been right there next to the guy committing the crime when it was carried out.20 years in jail?

Someone posted a Link where is says military Courts maximum is 5 years.

20 years in jail?

Someone posted a Link where is says military Courts maximum is 5 years.

Military courts can sentence you to death, or life in prison, anything they deem reasonable.

The longer this story goes on, the weirder it gets.

I think they just don't know what the hell happened really. Fog of war you know? I think it was just a bad case of fracticide and not intentional.

I think they just don't know what the hell happened really. Fog of war you know? I think it was just a bad case of fracticide and not intentional.

Well, uh, who the fuck shoots a man in the face at close range and it's an accident?


This guy doesn't count. (http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060524/060524_cheney_vsmall8p.widec.jpg)

Joking aside: close range, in the face, three times. Not an accident.

Well, uh, who the fuck shoots a man in the face at close range and it's an accident?


This guy doesn't count. (http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060524/060524_cheney_vsmall8p.widec.jpg)

Joking aside: close range, in the face, three times. Not an accident.

It can happen in peacetime.

The M-16 is fitted with a 3-round burst option. One pull - three rounds in rapid succession.

I've seen people shot at peacetime shooting ranges in the Army (and in civilian life at civilian ranges) by accident.

Firearms don't come with a module that radically increases your mental faculties.

in any high profile situation you are going to be able to come up with conspiracy ideas. People will continue to come up with conspiracy ideas as long as it gives them attention.

It can happen in peacetime.

The M-16 is fitted with a 3-round burst option. One pull - three rounds in rapid succession.

I've seen people shot at peacetime shooting ranges in the Army (and in civilian life at civilian ranges) by accident.

Firearms don't come with a module that radically increases your mental faculties.

Granted, but was it confirmed that it was an M-16 that did it? And surely if such a thing were to happen on patrol, others would see it. Makes no sense to make up a story for the media.

in any high profile situation you are going to be able to come up with conspiracy ideas. People will continue to come up with conspiracy ideas as long as it gives them attention.

And sometimes the smell is fishy but the look isn't sexy.

Granted, but was it confirmed that it was an M-16 that did it? And surely if such a thing were to happen on patrol, others would see it. Makes no sense to make up a story for the media.

According to the man who was right next to Tillman when he was killed, there was no friendly fire that hit Tillman. If we discount that, then...

I personally believe that if there's a lie (IF) it's this man, and he accidentally shot Tillman (that would match the supposed shots in the head). He above all others would have reason to lie - shooting each other in combat happens more than you would like to hear - was just reading about the battle of Peleliu, and some Marines shot each other at contact range in the confusion of battle, and there was tacit acceptance of covering up the nature of the deaths. No one wanted to admit it.

In the confusion of battle, if you're more than a few yards away, you don't really know what's going on with everyone else, until the battle is over. I'm not sure you could really get credible witnesses for or against what happened.

I guess the other possibility (though remote considering the circumstances) is that it was suicide.
That also needs to be discounted.

According to the man who was right next to Tillman when he was killed, there was no friendly fire that hit Tillman. If we discount that, then...

I personally believe that if there's a lie (IF) it's this man, and he accidentally shot Tillman (that would match the supposed shots in the head). He above all others would have reason to lie - shooting each other in combat happens more than you would like to hear - was just reading about the battle of Peleliu, and some Marines shot each other at contact range in the confusion of battle, and there was tacit acceptance of covering up the nature of the deaths. No one wanted to admit it.

In the confusion of battle, if you're more than a few yards away, you don't really know what's going on with everyone else, until the battle is over. I'm not sure you could really get credible witnesses for or against what happened.

Is it just me or is RO getting more sensible? Someone hold me, I'm scared.

Is it just me or is RO getting more sensible? Someone hold me, I'm scared.

It's just you. Even a broken analog clock is right twice a day.

It's just you. Even a broken analog clock is right twice a day.

Phew. Thought frawgs would start fallin outta the sky.

...Fog of war..yeah, the so-called "executive privilege" can generate a lot of Fog.

How do you get shot three times in the forehead by friendly fire?

Maybe if you have a guy like this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=u7VBaCEHJrU) in your squad.

Executive privilege isn't even in the Constitution, it's a fraud made up by elitist Presidents to cover up corruption and illegality.

Executive privilege isn't even in the Constitution, it's a fraud made up by elitist Presidents to cover up corruption and illegality.

I hate to tell you this but Executive Privilege is not a fraud.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Privilege

How do you get shot three times in the forehead by friendly fire?

Maybe if you have a guy like this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=u7VBaCEHJrU) in your squad.

M-16 has a burst fire setting: pull trigger once, three bullets fire.

It's not impossible.

I hate to tell you this but Executive Privilege is not a fraud.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Privilege

Very well. In that case, I would contend that GWB has abused the concept. How would the Tillman frendly-fire case endanger national security? From the article you cited, that is what executive privilege is to be used for, not because it would make them look bad.

Very well. In that case, I would contend that GWB has abused the concept. How would the Tillman frendly-fire case endanger national security? From the article you cited, that is what executive privilege is to be used for, not because it would make them look bad.

I agree that he is abusing it in the Tillman case.

I agree that he is abusing it in the Tillman case.

And it's also being abused in the Gonzalez situation, I hear.

And it's also being abused in the Gonzalez situation, I hear.

That is indeed possible.