NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,496731,00.html
US students are having a hard time in Germany, as they find themselves having to justify Washington policy from day to day. A new pilot project in German schools is meant to help Americans deal with the endless drill.

I'm not sure I have a lot to add to it, the article seems to cover all the bases. Nonetheless, I think it's worth posting.

The thing that I found interesting is that in 2000 the US had a 78% approval rating, which since then has absolutely plummeted. That suggests to me that it's all about politics and especially the headlines created by it.

If the Republicans were to lose the next election and the successor were to pull out of Iraq and give up on the "change the world" doctrine, maybe contribute a bit more to the global campaign against climate change...how much do you think that would change things?

Those Germans should be ashamed of themselves.

As to your points, everything boils down to politics and money. Outside of that, no one gives a crap.

As to your points, everything boils down to politics and money.
Money?

German students come off sounding a lot like american students in that article. Teh irony.

Those Germans should be ashamed of themselves.
So should Americans. I've seen a lot of instances where we Americans have put someone on the spot as the representative for the whole of their race, nationality, or religion.

If the Republicans were to lose the next election and the successor were to pull out of Iraq and give up on the "change the world" doctrine, maybe contribute a bit more to the global campaign against climate change...how much do you think that would change things?

Not at all. I think it's a bit deeper than our particular foreign policy. Antiamericanism's always been around in Europe - that's nothing new. But the more problems and cultural clashes Europeans have, the more they'll want a boogeyman, and we're it for the forseeable future. :p Not that I care much - if I were a student over there, I'd probably enjoy the arguments. ;)

If the Republicans were to lose the next election and the successor were to pull out of Iraq and give up on the "change the world" doctrine, maybe contribute a bit more to the global campaign against climate change...how much do you think that would change things? not much.

it will be too soon. gotta wait till years later. and even then that's assuming that the Democrats plans for Iraq goes smoothly and without a hitch (meaning peace is restored and no more terrorist camps in the ME.)

but should Iraq erupt into a civil war even after we pull out... add a decade for every year it goes on.

So should Americans. I've seen a lot of instances where we Americans have put someone on the spot as the representative for the whole of their race, nationality, or religion.

Indeed. No one should ever do that.

Still, how hard can it be to break off one of those conversations? Surely you could just ask about the war or something.

Meh... the US is the most powerful country in the world currently in terms of both economy and military might, that makes us a mighty big target.

That being said, we could also do with a bit more humility in our dealings with the rest of the planet.

I agreed.

[url]If the Republicans were to lose the next election and the successor were to pull out of Iraq and give up on the "change the world" doctrine, maybe contribute a bit more to the global campaign against climate change...how much do you think that would change things?
Meh... the US is the most powerful country in the world currently in terms of both economy and military might, that makes us a mighty big target.

That being said, we could also do with a bit more humility in our dealings with the rest of the planet.

but should Iraq erupt into a civil war even after we pull out... add a decade for every year it goes on.

Meh. Millions dies when we left Viet Nam. No one cared. They care when it's in the headlines, not on page 13d. :p

Those Germans should be ashamed of themselves.

For doing something that's normal in their culture?

When I lived in France I was asked political questions all the time. This is mostly because the French, like most Europeans, from what I gather, are obsessive about politics by American standards. Personally, I rather liked it, but many American kids at the school have no interest whatsoever in politics and felt much put upon about it. Of course, the French were very frustrated because to them talking about politics is second to bitching about everything as national passtimes.

As to the OP, I do think a President with a more Clinton-like foreign policy would do a lot to ameliorate the situation. Much of the frustration I saw from the French was regarding Bush's foreign policy decisions. They liked discussing gun control, but it wasn't that big a deal to them as they recognize that I'm from a different culture. The French don't understand why the Americans opposed to the war aren't out in the streets every day until the war ends because, after bitching and talking about politics, going on strike is the French's third favorite passtime.

For doing something that's normal in their culture?

Being forced to justify the actions from D.C. is not normal. Asking questions about their personal opinions, that is something different.

Being forced to justify the actions from D.C. is not normal. Asking questions about their personal opinions, that is something different.

I think the kids felt they were being "forced" to justify D.C.'s actions because of the rather blunt nature of political discussion in Europe. At my school in France some of the American kids felt they were being put upon in much the same way, when it was just a case of the questioning being rather more direct than is polite in the US. Sure, there are some assholes that were being assholes about it, but I don't think it's as prevalent as the article makes it out to be. But then, of course, when I lived in Germany I didn't interact much with the local civilians, so maybe the Germans are just bigger assholes about it than the French.

If the Republicans were to lose the next election and the successor were to pull out of Iraq and give up on the "change the world" doctrine, maybe contribute a bit more to the global campaign against climate change...how much do you think that would change things?

Well, for me, it would change quite a lot I think.
Also, from what I can gather from most of my friends, an America without Bush as president is far better off in our eyes.

If the Republicans were to lose the next election and the successor were to pull out of Iraq and give up on the "change the world" doctrine, maybe contribute a bit more to the global campaign against climate change...how much do you think that would change things?

Doesn't matter, cause it won't happen. The (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt) Democrats (url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_S._Truman) invented (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy) "change (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_B._Johnson) the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_vietnam)"

And they still believe in it, too (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00237).

Not at all. I think it's a bit deeper than our particular foreign policy. Antiamericanism's always been around in Europe - that's nothing new. But the more problems and cultural clashes Europeans have, the more they'll want a boogeyman, and we're it for the forseeable future. :p Not that I care much - if I were a student over there, I'd probably enjoy the arguments. ;)

You are probably right. The Soviets created that boogeyman for a long time. Was just a matter of time for a new one to appear. America was a likely target.

Those Germans should be ashamed of themselves.

Why?

The United States possesses and actively engages a hegemonic position in the global political, economic, and military spheres. Obviously, when the United States does exercise its power, it can have a profound impact on other states and peoples.

Such peoples simply note that if they must absorb the cost of the United States' actions, they should also have a say in how, or whether, those actions are carried out.

This is the essence of the value of personal responsibility, which is supposedly at the heart of American ideals, isn't it? The duty to be responsible for one's actions?

The American people elected the current administration, the American people are responsible for its actions.

And they still believe in it, too (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00237).
Neither Hillary nor Barack seem particularly inclined to change the world at the moment. I think we'll see more realpolitik from either of them if the Democrats win the next election.

Why?

The United States possesses and actively engages a hegemonic position in the global political, economic, and military spheres. Obviously, when the United States does exercise its power, it can have a profound impact on other states and peoples.

Such peoples simply note that if they must absorb the cost of the United States' actions, they should also have a say in how, or whether, those actions are carried out.

This is the essence of the value of personal responsibility, which is supposedly at the heart of American ideals, isn't it? The duty to be responsible for one's actions?

The American people elected the current administration, the American people are responsible for its actions.

And yet, what if they do not support the administration? What if they do not have an interest in politics at all? Why should they be forced to justify actions that they do not believe in?

It's the same for anyone who comes from a culture/country/regime the host nation finds reprehensible. Sure, it's a fucking nuisance people think it's always appropriate to confront you about your nation's less likable policies, and take it for granted you support those policies unless you prove otherwise... But it's nothing new, and given our collective inability to zip around the globe in the blink of an eye, it's not surprising either. To be honest, I rather prefer the annoyance to peoples who just don't give a shit.

There was an intereting documentary on SBS recently called 'The Anti-Americans' about how popular anti-Americanism has become in Europe since Iraq etc, there is even a business and market for anti-American products etc.

Anywhere a buck can be made. That is such an American trait.

There was an intereting documentary on SBS recently called 'The Anti-Americans' about how popular anti-Americanism has become in Europe since Iraq etc, there is even a business and market for anti-American products etc.

There was an intereting documentary on SBS recently called 'The Anti-Americans' about how popular anti-Americanism has become in Europe since Iraq etc, there is even a business and market for anti-American products etc.Again the same was true of the USSR, and is true for nations like China and Cuba, and cultures/religions like Islam and Judaism. Please note I'm in no way saying it's a good thing, just that it's not extraordinary.

What the hell are these Germans' problems? It's not like your average American exchange student has ever shot an Iraqi.

Oddly enough, when I was studying in France I was never harassed about it when people found out I'd been to Iraq. Mostly I got expressions of pity and many a free beer.

And yet, what if they do not support the administration?


They can easily say so, I assume.


What if they do not have an interest in politics at all?


It is my understanding that the highway law in Germany is such that a motorist that runs out of gas or suffers a break down that could have been easily prevented by normal maintenance is subject to citation/fine by the relevant law enforcement authority. German motorists are simply expected to be responsible and properly maintain their motor vehicles. Failure to do so simply constitutes the purposeful action of ignoring one's personal responsibility.

This is an interesting viewpoint which I think is equally applicable to the political realm, and perhaps reflects the German students persistence in demanding explainations from Americans. They simply consider people responsible for maintaining their governments, and failure to do so represents the purposeful action of ignoring one's personal responsibility.

If this is an accurate assessment, then it is a viewpoint I like. A lot. Those who take no interest in politics are part of the problem. Perhaps if they tried harder at being part of the solution, the policy of their government would change for the positive, and the rest of the world wouldn't feel inclined toward being so forward in asking just what in the hell is going on over there?

What the hell are these Germans' problems? It's not like your average American exchange student has ever shot an Iraqi.

Meh. Millions dies when we left Viet Nam. No one cared. They care when it's in the headlines, not on page 13d. :pconsidering the difference in the media coverage of both Vietnam and Iraq.

I don't think it will be dismissed that easily.

Neither Hillary nor Barack seem particularly inclined to change the world at the moment. I think we'll see more realpolitik from either of them if the Democrats win the next election.
but there campaigning. you know... making those promises to get votes.

the reall telling would be what they do once they get INTO office.

And yet, what if they do not support the administration?

Then say you don't.

What if they do not have an interest in politics at all?

Then say you don't. This may frustrate them, since in their culture more people are more willing to discuss politics, but I'm sure they've been frustrated before.

Why should they be forced to justify actions that they do not believe in?

It's not as though the Germans are putting guns to their heads. I told a great many Frenchmen that I didn't support the administration, nor it's policies. Oddly enough, they dropped it.

Again the same was true of the USSR, and is true for nations like China and Cuba, and cultures/religions like Islam and Judaism. Please note I'm in no way saying it's a good thing, just that it's not extraordinary.

Actually on that note, one achievement of the USSR was certainly was that it was able to stay together long enough to really challenge the US, and the effect today is that everyone forces their nationalist/ideological hatred on the US almost universally.

And yet, what if they do not support the administration? What if they do not have an interest in politics at all? Why should they be forced to justify actions that they do not believe in?

then say so.

If someone were to ask me those questions, My reply would be "dunno, you can E-mail the US President and see if he replies..."

Those Germans should be ashamed of themselves.

As to your points, everything boils down to politics and money. Outside of that, no one gives a crap.

Shocking, its about "politics" :rolleyes:

Educated German people, like most of the rest of the world, is as a body politic opposed to US foreign policy.

Europe is sophisticated, educated, intellectual and liberal, in comparison to the US, which is ignorant, unintelligent and conservative.
:p

I think everyone should also keep in mind that this is anecdotal evidence, no more.

Europe is sophisticated, educated, intellectual and liberal, in comparison to the US, which is ignorant, unintelligent and conservative.
:p

In fact, according to the 2006 National Geographic-Roper Survey of Geographic Literacy (http://www.nationalgeographic.com/roper2006/findings.html):

"* Only 37% of young Americans can find Iraq on a map—though U.S. troops have been there since 2003.
* 6 in 10 young Americans don't speak a foreign language fluently.
* 20% of young Americans think Sudan is in Asia. (It's the largest country in Africa.)
* 48% of young Americans believe the majority population in India is Muslim. (It's Hindu—by a landslide.)
* Half of young Americans can't find New York on a map."

Full survey and report: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/roper2006/pdf/FINALReport2006GeogLitsurvey.pdf

The United States commands the lion's share of global power, but half of its young citizens can't find one of it's own major states, nevermind anything else out in the rest of the world. No wonder other peoples are pissed of at them.

I think everyone should also keep in mind that this is anecdotal evidence, no more.

They should keep that in mind about any and all of my comments in this thread as well.

I've seen a lot of instances where we Americans have put someone on the spot as the representative for the whole of their race, nationality, or religion.
Yeah, that's silly ... i truly doubt that very many german girlies are as hot as WYTYG.
Or as crazy.

Yeah, I get that alot from friend who are from overseas. I can only imagine how uncomfortable it will be if I ever do an exchange during college. How many ways can you say, "He's not my President! I volunteered for the Kerry campaign?"

considering the difference in the media coverage of both Vietnam and Iraq.

I don't think it will be dismissed that easily.


I'm pretty sure Viet Nam was a big issue in its day. ;)

In fact, according to the 2006 National Geographic-Roper Survey of Geographic Literacy (http://www.nationalgeographic.com/roper2006/findings.html):

"* Only 37% of young Americans can find Iraq on a map—though U.S. troops have been there since 2003.
* 6 in 10 young Americans don't speak a foreign language fluently.
* 20% of young Americans think Sudan is in Asia. (It's the largest country in Africa.)
* 48% of young Americans believe the majority population in India is Muslim. (It's Hindu—by a landslide.)
* Half of young Americans can't find New York on a map."

Full survey and report: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/roper2006/pdf/FINALReport2006GeogLitsurvey.pdf

The United States commands the lion's share of global power, but half of its young citizens can't find one of it's own major states, nevermind anything else out in the rest of the world. No wonder other peoples are pissed of at them.Except, being able to speak a foreign lanaguage fluently I can do all those things, incuding finding all the states and also find 96% of all the countries of the world.

Except, being able to speak a foreign lanaguage fluently I can do all those things, incuding finding all the states and also find 96% of all the countries of the world.

Those are some odd stats, and I doubt a few of them. However, 40% being able to speak a foreign language fluently isn't bad for a country where basically no one *needs* to speak any kind of foreign language, at all. :p Really, it's a nice thing to learn, but it doesn't come up in your daily life unless perhaps you live on the border.

Europe is sophisticated, educated, intellectual and liberal, in comparison to the US, which is ignorant, unintelligent and conservative.
:pLiberal is not always a good thing as there are different things to consider that though the U.S. is conservative in most areas it actually is more of a compromise on the national level to the East and West Coasts of the country being liberal and the area between being conservative, although in the northern states of the Midwest, you know which states :p, are rather liberal. As such the country is quite a compromise which I think is the best. As well, we do not have to pay half of our incomes to the governments to support a welfare states of Europe, especially Sweden.;) Further, who says that the we of the Bourgeoisie and White collar classes do not maintain control over an uneducated majority, Skull and Bones members know what I am talking about:D, though George Bush Jr. was allowed in so we would have lackey to paddle and fetch drinks.;)

Those are some odd stats, and I doubt a few of them. However, 40% being able to speak a foreign language fluently isn't bad for a country where basically no one *needs* to speak any kind of foreign language, at all. :p Really, it's a nice thing to learn, but it doesn't come up in your daily life unless perhaps you live on the border.Well, I do speak fragments of Japanese, Icelandic;), German, Italian, and Norwegian. Added I do have the ability to speak and understand Spanish at a tangible level.

Liberal is not always a good thing as there are different things to consider that though the U.S. is conservative in most areas it actually is more of a compromise on the national level to the East and West Coasts of the country being liberal and the area between being conservative, although in the northern states of the Midwest, you know which states :p, are rather liberal. As such the country is quite a compromise which I think is the best. As well, we do not have to pay half of our incomes to the governments to support a welfare states of Europe, especially Sweden.;) Further, who says that the we of the Bourgeoisie and White collar classes do not maintain control over an uneducated majority, Skull and Bones members know what I am talking about:D, though George Bush Jr. was allowed in so we would have lackey to paddle and fetch drinks.;)

I would actually gladly pay half my income to a welfare state, the Swedes, Finns and others certainly like their societies, which is why they have continued to elected for the welfare state to continue.

I'm pretty sure Viet Nam was a big issue in its day. ;)

It was bigger then Iraq in many respects.

I would actually gladly pay half my income to a welfare state, the Swedes, Finns and others certainly like their societies, which is why they have continued to elected for the welfare state to continue.Well, different preceptions are able to meet freely and attempt to compromise then that is the kind of society I want to live in.:D

If the Republicans were to lose the next election and the successor were to pull out of Iraq and give up on the "change the world" doctrine, maybe contribute a bit more to the global campaign against climate change...how much do you think that would change things?

I think everything but pulling out of Iraq would change public opinion for the better. The feeling many Germans have right now about Iraq is that it was a war of aggression from the United States' side, and unjustified as well as possibly criminal.
Pulling out, however, would mean leaving the country in such a state that it now poses a serious danger to regional stability. It has been thrown into turmoil, and it will have to be stabilised one way or another. If the US pulls out now, the UN will in the near future create a mandate and send in international troops. The public will feel that once again the US have created an allmighty mess, and then left to leave the rest of the world to sort it out. It's not going to help approval raitings internationally.

Being forced to justify the actions from D.C. is not normal. Asking questions about their personal opinions, that is something different.

As a German, I can tell you that more often than not the first thing I have to do when getting into converstation with non-Germans for the first time is talk about the Nazi era. Invaribly.
That's not even my country's politics right now, I'm virtually being asked to justify or apologise the actions of my country when my grandparents where only just born!
That's life, get over it.

In fact, according to the 2006 National Geographic-Roper Survey of Geographic Literacy (http://www.nationalgeographic.com/roper2006/findings.html):

"* Only 37% of young Americans can find Iraq on a map—though U.S. troops have been there since 2003.
* 6 in 10 young Americans don't speak a foreign language fluently.
* 20% of young Americans think Sudan is in Asia. (It's the largest country in Africa.)
* 48% of young Americans believe the majority population in India is Muslim. (It's Hindu—by a landslide.)
* Half of young Americans can't find New York on a map."

Full survey and report: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/roper2006/pdf/FINALReport2006GeogLitsurvey.pdf

The United States commands the lion's share of global power, but half of its young citizens can't find one of it's own major states, nevermind anything else out in the rest of the world. No wonder other peoples are pissed of at them.

And you can blame the American Education System for that.

Yeah, I get that alot from friend who are from overseas. I can only imagine how uncomfortable it will be if I ever do an exchange during college. How many ways can you say, "He's not my President! I volunteered for the Kerry campaign?"

I hate to break this to ya but he is your President wether you voted for him or not.

As a German, I can tell you that more often than not the first thing I have to do when getting into converstation with non-Germans for the first time is talk about the Nazi era. Invaribly.
That's not even my country's politics right now, I'm virtually being asked to justify or apologise the actions of my country when my grandparents where only just born!
That's life, get over it.

Then you run into others who do like to discuss it and that's all. I have discussed this with Germans and not once did I ask them to justify it.

"You do it to yourself, you do, and that's what really hurts..."

So should Americans. I've seen a lot of instances where we Americans have put someone on the spot as the representative for the whole of their race, nationality, or religion.

Like the only black person in the room who is asked to give the "African American Perspective." Yes... because every black person thinks the same.....:headbang:

I hate to break this to ya but he is your President wether you voted for him or not.

"I didn't vote for him, but he's my President, and I hope he does a good job."

-- John Wayne, on the election of Kennedy.

Whoever wins the next US election, GW Bush and company have done their best to run a tank over the USA's international reputation.

Anti-Americans in the UK amuse me.. some of them try and base their racism at Americans over the invasion of Iraq by Bush when our government did exactly the same thing.

I hate to break this to ya but he is your President wether you voted for him or not.

No. He is indeed the President of the United States. He is not however my leader or my President. He has abdicated the responsibility of that position and shamed it's name. He is not my President. I do not take responsibility for him or his actions, because I have, at all points, sought to prevent him from acting further. He is your President, perhaps, and he may be the President of our nation, but he is not my President. That position has been empty for 4 years.

why would they have to justify washington policy? if I were abroad and people confronted me about what my government was doing I'd just tell them frankly that its run by plutocratic fools who do not represent me in the least, and nobody I agree with has a snowball's chance in hell of winning.

Anti-Americans in the UK amuse me.. some of them try and base their racism at Americans over the invasion of Iraq by Bush when our government did exactly the same thing.

Please try and get your insults straight. Being anti-American is not being racist (Unless you are trying to claim that there is an ethnic homogeneity to the US population that no one has noticed).

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,496731,00.html


I'm not sure I have a lot to add to it, the article seems to cover all the bases. Nonetheless, I think it's worth posting.

The thing that I found interesting is that in 2000 the US had a 78% approval rating, which since then has absolutely plummeted. That suggests to me that it's all about politics and especially the headlines created by it.

If the Republicans were to lose the next election and the successor were to pull out of Iraq and give up on the "change the world" doctrine, maybe contribute a bit more to the global campaign against climate change...how much do you think that would change things?

When in human history has the hegemon ever been unconditionally well-liked? Or simply approved of at all times?

No. He is indeed the President of the United States. He is not however my leader or my President. He has abdicated the responsibility of that position and shamed it's name. He is not my President. I do not take responsibility for him or his actions, because I have, at all points, sought to prevent him from acting further. He is your President, perhaps, and he may be the President of our nation, but he is not my President. That position has been empty for 4 years.

Unfortunately for you, being a citizen of a presidential democracy implies that the elected president is YOUR president, regardless of how you voted or your political opinions on the matter. The only way you can deny that Bush is your president is by emigrating. (Something I did when Blair was elected in the UK)

The only way you can deny that Bush is your president is by emigrating. (Something I did when Blair was elected in the UK)
You emigrated solely because of that..?

You emigrated solely because of that..?

No. But it helped in making the decision.

No. He is indeed the President of the United States. He is not however my leader or my President.

Sorry but yes he is.

He has abdicated the responsibility of that position and shamed it's name. He is not my President.

Yes he is.

I do not take responsibility for him or his actions, because I have, at all points, sought to prevent him from acting further.

That is fine.

He is your President, perhaps, and he may be the President of our nation, but he is not my President. That position has been empty for 4 years.

Yes he is your president just like he is mine.

Unfortunately for you, being a citizen of a presidential democracy implies that the elected president is YOUR president, regardless of how you voted or your political opinions on the matter. The only way you can deny that Bush is your president is by emigrating. (Something I did when Blair was elected in the UK)

You are correct AB Again.

So many people don't like the United States, we are becoming the like the Jews where in the 1920s and 30s. Everything is our fault. Global warming, terrorism....ect. Its all America's fault. We are our 21 century scapegoat. Enjoy

He is your President, perhaps, and he may be the President of our nation, but he is not my President. That position has been empty for 4 years. Just to be clear... He suddenly stopped being your president in 2003. Iraq?

Just to be clear, he never stopped being his president. He will stop being his president Jan. 2009
Oh do shut up. I never addressed you and probably never will. I might laugh at your antics, Corny, but that's it.

we may be scapegoats, but that doesn't necessarily mean we didn't earn it.

Just to be clear... He suddenly stopped being your president in 2003. Iraq?

Just to be clear, he never stopped being his president. He will stop being his president Jan. 2009

Many of the Germans kids lecturing American students about policy have never been taught about WWII and Nazism.

Before you shatter my illusions, please shatter your own. :upyours:

Those "victimized" Americans can't pretend they don't do the same things to Muslims and such back here. I see it happen.

we may be scapegoats, but that doesn't necessarily mean we didn't earn it.

Yep.

Those Germans should be ashamed of themselves.
Why should we be?

Whenever I visited the States and talked with people, the 2nd World War and Nazism was bound to be mentioned rather sooner than later although it was 60+ years back and neither I nor my parents lived at that time.

Honestly, that's the way things go over here. Political debate and talk about it is part of everyday life and conversation. Apolitical persons are suspicious to me - way more suspicious than people who hold a different opinion. Those at least have an opinion, despite one I don't share and maybe disagree with.

But really, instead of complaining about the Germans y'all ought to be glad that we're interested in politics like this for once. I mean, people like Bush got "elected" and re-elected because half of your population couldn't be arsed to even bother casting a vote once every four years...

Many of the Germans kids lecturing American students about policy have never been taught about WWII and Nazism.

Before you shatter my illusions, please shatter your own. :upyours:
That's an opinion and in no way a fact. So how about you :upyours: yourself - would be closer to where you've pulled this from anyway.

If there's one people on this planet it's the Germans who are confronted with their past on a daily basis.

So many people don't like the United States, we are becoming the like the Jews where in the 1920s and 30s. Everything is our fault. Global warming, terrorism....ect. Its all America's fault. We are our 21 century scapegoat. Enjoy
Persecution complex, much?

If the U.S. ceased to have such an influence on the world, or for once lived up to the responsibility that comes with that influence it clearly wanted, maybe then people would regard you guys differently.

Until then, don't complain when you've been caught red-handed.

Many of the Germans kids lecturing American students about policy have never been taught about WWII and Nazism.
This is just asinine.

Germany and its citizenry are constantly confronted with their history every single day. If anything, they ruminate on the subject too much.

FFS, Germany has some of the harshest Free Speech laws in the Western world, all due to the memory of Hitler.

Many of the Germans kids lecturing American students about policy have never been taught about WWII and Nazism.

Before you shatter my illusions, please shatter your own. :upyours:

"Never been taught"??? No, course not... they just get force-fed German history in the 20th century every single year they spend in school. Just in hundreds on hundreds of TV documentaries made about the subjet. Just in dozens of big screen pictures about the Nazi era. The only Germans who are deluded about that time in history are those who decide to believe a different version of events, usually handed to them by neo-nazi groups.

Believe me, you will never ever meet a single German who is unaware about that particular time in Germany's history. They may not know who Gutenberg was, they may not have heard of Goethe or Kepler, but they will know about Hitler, they will know about the NSDAP and they will know about WW II.

This may have something do do with the fact that the Germans (along with the rest of Europe) making the assumption that public opinion in the USA or even the way people vote has anything to do with US policy or even who gets to be president.

First of all, the majority of the public (obviously I'm excluding those who have functioning brains and a healthy distrust of Fox News) in the USA do not form opinions all by themselves. No, they rely on "News" broadcasts to do it for them - which wouldn't be such a bad idea in principle except that most of the TV press in the USA don't seem to be living on the same planet as the rest of the world. Also there is assumption that all news stations have a "liberal bias" - which is one of those myths whose truth rests on nothing more than repetition.

Worse still, a significant proportion of the US population regards the opinions of TV talkshow hosts like Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter or Laura Ingraham to be as good as facts - that because they are celebrities, they can't possibly ever lie or be wrong.

Blind faith in the government also has a lot to answer for - there are people who would continue to believe that the government has done no wrong even with mountains of hard evidence to the contrary.

All the above aside - it's pretty clear that even when Americans do actually go out and vote in elections, the guy who gets to be president isn't actually the one the majority voted for anyway. Yes, I know that Bush was only proved to have stolen his first election back in 2000, but you're kidding yourselves if you think the 2004 election was squeaky clean. The 2008 election will in all likelihood be just as rigged, since the republicans have lost the popularity contest by a long way but will do anything to stay in power.

Now although it may not sound like it from what I've written above, I am actually trying to be supportive of Americans here - particularly those who are unjustifiably held to account for the policies and actions of their government.

I realise that it's not your fault. I know that the president didn't get their by fair election. I know your representatives ignore you (unless you work in the oil, mining or pharmaceutical industries or are a millionaire). I know that you have little if any influence on how the policies of your government are made. Therefore I won't be holding any of you to account - unless you did actually vote for Bush or donate money to the republicans, that is.

The point I'm making is that there is a massive difference between the American people and the US government - the former cannot really be held accountable for the actions of the latter.

Although if more of you would wake up and realise that democracy is not a spectator sport, this could all change.

"
Believe me, you will never ever meet a single German who is unaware about that particular time in Germany's history. They may not know who Gutenberg was, they may not have heard of Goethe or Kepler, but they will know about Hitler, they will know about the NSDAP and they will know about WW II.

Really? I've met several germans who claim its all the fault of the treaty of Versailles. That doesn't sound like awareness to me.

I mean it sucks, when your country does something douchy. I can relate. But still...

"Never been taught"??? No, course not... they just get force-fed German history in the 20th century every single year they spend in school. Just in hundreds on hundreds of TV documentaries made about the subjet. Just in dozens of big screen pictures about the Nazi era. The only Germans who are deluded about that time in history are those who decide to believe a different version of events, usually handed to them by neo-nazi groups.

Believe me, you will never ever meet a single German who is unaware about that particular time in Germany's history. They may not know who Gutenberg was, they may not have heard of Goethe or Kepler, but they will know about Hitler, they will know about the NSDAP and they will know about WW II.

And breaking his brain helps...how?

This may have something do do with the fact that the Germans (along with the rest of Europe) making the assumption that public opinion in the USA or even the way people vote has anything to do with US policy or even who gets to be president.

First of all, the majority of the public (obviously I'm excluding those who have functioning brains and a healthy distrust of Fox News) in the USA do not form opinions all by themselves. No, they rely on "News" broadcasts to do it for them - which wouldn't be such a bad idea in principle except that most of the TV press in the USA don't seem to be living on the same planet as the rest of the world. Also there is assumption that all news stations have a "liberal bias" - which is one of those myths whose truth rests on nothing more than repetition.

Worse still, a significant proportion of the US population regards the opinions of TV talkshow hosts like Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter or Laura Ingraham to be as good as facts - that because they are celebrities, they can't possibly ever lie or be wrong.

Blind faith in the government also has a lot to answer for - there are people who would continue to believe that the government has done no wrong even with mountains of hard evidence to the contrary.

All the above aside - it's pretty clear that even when Americans do actually go out and vote in elections, the guy who gets to be president isn't actually the one the majority voted for anyway. Yes, I know that Bush was only proved to have stolen his first election back in 2000, but you're kidding yourselves if you think the 2004 election was squeaky clean. The 2008 election will in all likelihood be just as rigged, since the republicans have lost the popularity contest by a long way but will do anything to stay in power.

Now although it may not sound like it from what I've written above, I am actually trying to be supportive of Americans here - particularly those who are unjustifiably held to account for the policies and actions of their government.

I realise that it's not your fault. I know that the president didn't get their by fair election. I know your representatives ignore you (unless you work in the oil, mining or pharmaceutical industries or are a millionaire). I know that you have little if any influence on how the policies of your government are made. Therefore I won't be holding any of you to account - unless you did actually vote for Bush or donate money to the republicans, that is.

The point I'm making is that there is a massive difference between the American people and the US government - the former cannot really be held accountable for the actions of the latter.

Although if more of you would wake up and realise that democracy is not a spectator sport, this could all change.

Quoted for truth.

Really? I've met several germans who claim its all the fault of the treaty of Versailles. That doesn't sound like awareness to me.
Well, the incredibly unfair and unrealistic Versailles Treaty did indeed cause undue suffering to the starving German citizenry post-WW1, and led to distrust of foreign governments.

Which (combined with the flu pandemic, stock market crash and subsequent hyper-inflation) led to civil unrest that the NSDP was able to capitalise on and the appointment of Hitler as Chancellor.

So, yeah, I'd say that was pretty aware.

Really? I've met several germans who claim its all the fault of the treaty of Versailles. That doesn't sound like awareness to me.

I mean it sucks, when your country does something douchy. I can relate. But still...

I can't speak for them, of course, but if you look at events the main facilitator for Hitler's rise was the treaty of Versaille. That's not placing blame, it's simply looking at causes and reactions. Personally, I tend to place the deepest root of the rise of the Nazis and WW II right at the point when Wilhelm II fired Bismark.

Really? I've met several germans who claim its all the fault of the treaty of Versailles. That doesn't sound like awareness to me.

I mean it sucks, when your country does something douchy. I can relate. But still...

Well, you do have to consider the Treaty of Versailles when discussing WWII. It was a really stupid treaty that created the conditions for the War to happen, and, while hindsight is 20/20, it should have been obvious from the beginning that it would cause problems.

Anyway, I do resent it when people assume that I am stupid/fat(though this one, obviously, only applies to people I meet online)/ignorant/a Bushevick when they hear I'm from the US. It's not even an uncommon thing; I'd say the majority of the Europeans and a significant proportion of the Canadians I've met at first think less of me, just for being born in and living in the US. (Not quite as many Canadians seem to do this, probably because they're more likely to have contact with Americans, living nearer to us) It's ridiculous! Now, to be fair, most of them do not persist in these opinions for long, but the fact that they hold such stereotypes in the first place is irritating. How hard is it to give somebody a chance before making judgments about them?

The treaty of Versailles was basically "j00 can't hasz no gunz! j00 hasz to give all to us! j00 can't do shit about it!" That sounds incredibly fair.

Just add "and it all j00 own fault" at the end and I think you've got more or less the exact wording ;)

Well, the incredibly unfair and unrealistic Versailles Treaty did indeed cause undue suffering to the starving German citizenry post-WW1, and led to distrust of foreign governments.

Which (combined with the flu pandemic, stock market crash and subsequent hyper-inflation) led to civil unrest that the NSDP was able to capitalise on and the appointment of Hitler as Chancellor.

So, yeah, I'd say that was pretty aware.

The treaty of Versailles was basically "j00 can't hasz no gunz! j00 hasz to give all to us! j00 can't do shit about it!" That sounds incredibly fair.

Just add "and it all j00 own fault" at the end and I think you've got more or less the exact wording ;)
I thought it ended on "and it all j00 own fault, biatches"? :p

The treaty of Versailles was basically "j00 can't hasz no gunz! j00 hasz to give all to us! j00 can't do shit about it!" That sounds incredibly fair.

Just add "and it all j00 own fault" at the end and I think you've got more or less the exact wording ;)

No wonder they got sick of all those j00s.

Yeah, I get that alot from friend who are from overseas. I can only imagine how uncomfortable it will be if I ever do an exchange during college. How many ways can you say, "He's not my President! I volunteered for the Kerry campaign?"
You just say it. Easy. We may want to talk to you about politics, doesn't mean we're forcing you to give us a two hour talk on the current political situation. If I say "Your president really sucks" and you say "Yeah, I totally agree" - what's uncomfortable about that?

It would be uncomfortable if you're a Republican, but that would only be as uncomfortable as talking to anyone else with an opposing viewpoint would be.

As a German, I can tell you that more often than not the first thing I have to do when getting into converstation with non-Germans for the first time is talk about the Nazi era. Invaribly.
That's not even my country's politics right now, I'm virtually being asked to justify or apologise the actions of my country when my grandparents where only just born!
That's life, get over it.
Indeed.


So many people don't like the United States, we are becoming the like the Jews where in the 1920s and 30s. Everything is our fault. Global warming, terrorism....ect. Its all America's fault. We are our 21 century scapegoat. Enjoy
Oh my God, you have got to be kidding me. Open your eyes, kid.

Many of the Germans kids lecturing American students about policy have never been taught about WWII and Nazism.

Before you shatter my illusions, please shatter your own. :upyours:
This has to be the most ignorant, asinine, clueless post in quite a while on here. And that's saying a lot. Lingerie Shop, among others, has already addressed it above so I'll save my breath.

This may have something do do with the fact that the Germans (along with the rest of Europe) making the assumption that public opinion in the USA or even the way people vote has anything to do with US policy or even who gets to be president.

First of all, the majority of the public (obviously I'm excluding those who have functioning brains and a healthy distrust of Fox News) in the USA do not form opinions all by themselves. No, they rely on "News" broadcasts to do it for them - which wouldn't be such a bad idea in principle except that most of the TV press in the USA don't seem to be living on the same planet as the rest of the world. Also there is assumption that all news stations have a "liberal bias" - which is one of those myths whose truth rests on nothing more than repetition.

Worse still, a significant proportion of the US population regards the opinions of TV talkshow hosts like Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter or Laura Ingraham to be as good as facts - that because they are celebrities, they can't possibly ever lie or be wrong.

Blind faith in the government also has a lot to answer for - there are people who would continue to believe that the government has done no wrong even with mountains of hard evidence to the contrary.

All the above aside - it's pretty clear that even when Americans do actually go out and vote in elections, the guy who gets to be president isn't actually the one the majority voted for anyway. Yes, I know that Bush was only proved to have stolen his first election back in 2000, but you're kidding yourselves if you think the 2004 election was squeaky clean. The 2008 election will in all likelihood be just as rigged, since the republicans have lost the popularity contest by a long way but will do anything to stay in power.

Now although it may not sound like it from what I've written above, I am actually trying to be supportive of Americans here - particularly those who are unjustifiably held to account for the policies and actions of their government.

I realise that it's not your fault. I know that the president didn't get their by fair election. I know your representatives ignore you (unless you work in the oil, mining or pharmaceutical industries or are a millionaire). I know that you have little if any influence on how the policies of your government are made. Therefore I won't be holding any of you to account - unless you did actually vote for Bush or donate money to the republicans, that is.

The point I'm making is that there is a massive difference between the American people and the US government - the former cannot really be held accountable for the actions of the latter.

Although if more of you would wake up and realise that democracy is not a spectator sport, this could all change.
So basically what you're saying is that most Americans are too stupid to think for themselves or to care about politics and that hence people like Bush get to be President and hence it's nobody's fault?

When half the country votes for the guy, that's not an accident. It's because they wanted to vote for him. Twice.

It also means that the other half didn't vote for him.

So just because the split wasn't 70-30 I can't criticize the roughly 50% who are in favour of the current administration's politics?

And really - what do you expect people to say? The US is invading Iraq over made-up reasons, they're creating more terrorist recruits than they can aim a gun at every day, they're not signing climate treaties, they're making bilateral agreements to keep their soldiers out of international courts - that's American politics. So, what, we should say "that's the politics of one half of the American people, the other half either silently agrees, doesn't care, or is opposed to it"? Everybody knows that, but that doesn't mean your local newscaster is going to get his tongue tied by saying it 10 times in every show.

I can't speak for them, of course, but if you look at events the main facilitator for Hitler's rise was the treaty of Versaille. That's not placing blame, it's simply looking at causes and reactions. Personally, I tend to place the deepest root of the rise of the Nazis and WW II right at the point when Wilhelm II fired Bismark.

It was one of pretexts under which the Nazis rose to power. But it's not the cause. Especially since the really onerous provisions had been lifted before hitler even became chancellor.

So it's silly to blame it for world war II.

Meh. Nations do shitty things. The british had the potato famine. The US has the genocide of the aboriginal peoples. I think it lacks awareness to point fingers elsewhere for those things. That is what I am saying.

Just add "and it all j00 own fault" at the end and I think you've got more or less the exact wording ;)

True, true. But I still think it was basically a stupid move.

No wonder they got sick of all those j00s.

I fell down laughing when I heard that. No, really.

The treaty of Versailles was basically "j00 can't hasz no gunz! j00 hasz to give all to us! j00 can't do shit about it!" That sounds incredibly fair.
Just add "and it all j00 own fault" at the end and I think you've got more or less the exact wording ;)
Yeah, the guilt clause was just unimaginably stupid. To come back to the original topic of this thread, its equivalent today would be to draw up a document detailing how the invasion of Iraq and every subsequent injury, fatality and damage to property was the personal responsibility of every single American citizen.

That and the German state (i.e. taxpayer) would have been paying 'retributions' well into the 1980s!

No wonder they got sick of all those j00s.
Oooh.

Ropey.

That and the German state (i.e. taxpayer) would have been paying 'retributions' well into the 1980s!


Yah, but that part was altered long before hitler came to power. Reparations were massively reduced in the 1920s and they were fully repudiated in 1934, long before WWII. So it's not really a reason.

As to the guilt clause. It was meaningless really.

Yah, but that part was altered long before hitler came to power. Reparations were massively reduced in the 1920s and they were fully repudiated in 1934, long before WWII. So it's not really a reason.

As to the guilt clause. It was meaningless really.

Hitler was in power in 1934, and the clause about not being allowed a military was not repudiated.
The guilt clause was the cherry on the top of this huge pile of humiliation, and the German public was extremely resentful towards this particulare clause. More than about the reparations, they had been common practice for a long time.

It was meaningless really.
Hardly meaningless to the German citizenry. Or to the NSDAP, who used it as one of their manifesto points ("Freiheit und Brot!" "Freedom [from Versailles] and Bread" was their famous 1930 slogan).

I'm not arguing that the Versailles Treaty was the cause of Hitler's rise to power or of the outbreak of war. But it can hardly be dismissed.

Yah, but that part was altered long before hitler came to power. Reparations were massively reduced in the 1920s and they were fully repudiated in 1934, long before WWII. So it's not really a reason.

As to the guilt clause. It was meaningless really.

Well, Hitler was in power by then, and he used the repatriations as a rallying point, so, that was important, Mr. Lack-A-Day Man.

Hardly meaningless to the German citizenry. Or to the NSDAP, who used it as one of their manifesto points.


Yes: As I said, it was one of the pretexts the NSDAP used to justify their policies. But in real terms it was meaningless. That the german citizenry couldn't just put it behind them really speaks more to their problems than the treaty itself.

Besides, the whole concept of being stabbed in the back &c. by their own government loomed far larger than any guilt clause in a treaty - for obvious reasons. So whether or not that particular provision had been included or not probably wouldn't have made much difference.

Well, Hitler was in power by then, and he used the repatriations as a rallying point, so, that was important, Mr. Lack-A-Day Man.

Rubbish. Try reading a history book.

Yes: As I said, it was one of the pretexts the NSDAP used to justify their policies. But in real terms it was meaningless. That the german citizenry couldn't just put it behind them really speaks more to their problems than the treaty itself.

Besides, the whole concept of being stabbed in the back &c. by their own government loomed far larger than any guilt clause in a treaty - for obvious reasons. So whether or not that particular provision had been included or not probably wouldn't have made much difference.
So you agree you were wrong in judging those Germans who see the Versailles Treaty as conducive to the rise of the NSDAP and the outbreak of war as "unaware"?

Rubbish. Try reading a history book.
What's rubbish?

Hitler was in power by 1934.

He did use reparations as rallying point.

Care to explain your vitriol?

I got that alot in Turkey. Although it was from family so maybe it was a little less harsh.. or maybe more harsh just for that reason :P I was able to get my point across to those that would listen though. I likened US imperialistic foriegn economic policy to mathematics and politics. 19th century every1 is imperialist. WW1 comes and goes, few imperialists (the winners). We like isolationism but Japan is taking over the Pacific and getting close to our protectorates and farms so we cut them off from supplies. They attack us. We go to war and post WW2 its USA and USSR. USSR loses and where we once had 20 world powers we are left with one world super power. Logic dictates what happens next :D

Oh yeah any german trying to tell me that America is bad would get a load of nazi questions shoved down his throat.

edit: I missed one more point. It's easy to point at one person and say they're the bad guy (cue Tony M. speech). Analyzing the facts and realizing your country is retarded in a way too takes modesty and a brain.

Oh yeah any german trying to tell me that America is bad would get a load of nazi questions shoved down his throat.
America is bad, mkaythxbai. http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/Wehrmachtsoffizier.gif

Rubbish. Try reading a history book.

I'd try to refute you, but Chumblywumbly already did.

America is bad, mkaythxbai. http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/Wehrmachtsoffizier.gif

For some reason, I can't find a NVA smilie...

So you agree you were wrong in judging those Germans who see the Versailles Treaty as conducive to the rise of the NSDAP and the outbreak of war as "unaware"?

There is a large difference between examining the propaganda of the day in context, and blaming the treaty for the war. But to actually blame the treaty for the war is a lot like blaming the jews. They didn't actually cause it, and nor did the treaty. (Notwithstanding that an active Nazi in 1940 would say otherwise).

Also, as I said, it was a pretext. Had there not been the guilt clause it probably would have happened anyway.

So I stand by my statement to 'blame' the treaty is unaware. Nations do shitty things sometimes. There is no point pushing responsibility off elsewhere.


What's rubbish?

Hitler was in power by 1934.

He did use reparations as rallying point.

One which could have been discarded easily. Onerous reparations were abandoned in the 1920s after the British financial crisis. Indeed, had Calvin Coolidge not been a dick, they probably would have ended completely at that point. (So you might as well blame him for WWII, I suppose). They were never really a necessary rallying point in any case. And they probably would have been totally ended at the time hitler came to power anyway.

Care to explain your vitriol?


I was just snarking back.

And no one ever points the finger at the Smoot-Hawley act, which is probably a billlion times more responsible if you want to look for external factors.

Many of the Germans kids lecturing American students about policy have never been taught about WWII and Nazism.


This has to be the most ignorant, asinine, clueless post in quite a while on here. And that's saying a lot.


After being posted in South Korea for years, my father was posted in Germany with 3rd AD in 1959. MY older brother and I were born there. We returned to the states when the Six Day War broke out and Pop thought the Russians were coming. :eek:

When our family was in Germany, we were little kids and got most of what we knew about it from our parents. All I really remember about it was that it was cold and snowy.

In the 50s and 60s, there were tons of anti-nazi laws that forbade nazi books, images, etc. In the sixties, our most recent experience with Germany, coping with their Nazi past was still a quite awkward and rather than be accused of being a nazi, many teachers refused to teach about them. At that time being labeled a Nazi was like a contemporary American being outed as a Klansman. They could be jailed or, at the very least humiliated or disgraced.

Apparently things have changed in Germany and that is a good thing. WWII and the economic, social and political forces that brought it about should never be forgotten.

I was wrong. My opinion was flawed because it was based on old data. Mea culpa.

However, speaking as a person who grew up during the Cold War, revisionist history is the rule, not the exception. Many countries rewrite their history to avoid those nasty little massacres and purges: America is no exception.

By todays standards, Andrew Jackson was a hideous, genocidal war criminal because of his conduct of the wars against the Indian tribes in the Eastern United States. He was popular enough to be elected president and he is on the twenty dollar bill today.

There is a large difference between examining the propaganda of the day in context, and blaming the treaty for the war. But to actually blame the treaty for the war is a lot like blaming the jews. They didn't actually cause it, and nor did the treaty. (Notwithstanding that an active Nazi in 1940 would say otherwise).
Who's 'blaming' the war on Versailles?

We're merely pointing out (and have stated this a number of times; see above) that it was a contribution to the rise in popularity of the NSDAP.

So I stand by my statement to 'blame' the treaty is unaware. Nations do shitty things sometimes. There is no point pushing responsibility off elsewhere.
You seem to be suggesting that nations (and in particular Nazi Germany) do things in a vacuum. This is absurd.

Without Versailles, the stock market crash and subsequent hyper-inflation, the flu pandemic and a number of other factors, the NSDAP wouldn't have been put in power.

The idiotic clauses of the Versailles treaty exacerbated the terrible situation of post-WW1 Germany. The German populace then gave support to those parties who were vocal in their anger at Versailles, among a number of things; namely the NSDAP and the two main Communist parties.

Again, no-one is 'blaming' the treaty; just acknowledging its harmful influence. I don't see how one can disagree on this.

One which could have been discarded easily. Onerous reparations were abandoned in the 1920s after the British financial crisis. Indeed, had Calvin Coolidge not been a dick, they probably would have ended completely at that point. (So you might as well blame him for WWII, I suppose). They were never really a necessary rallying point in any case. And they probably would have been totally ended at the time hitler came to power anyway.
Never mind if they weren't a 'necessary' rallying point, they were a rallying point. The NSDAP used them as such. Ruminating on whether or not a post-WW1 Germany without the Versailles Treaty would have begun WW2 is all well and good, but the historical fact remains that large portions of the German populace were extremely unhappy at said treaty, and the NSDAP capitalised on this.

I was just snarking back.
Two wrongs...

-snip-

I was wrong. My opinion was flawed because it was based on old data. Mea culpa -snap-
BEHOLD! Here be a NSG poster who readily admits to have been wrong. I hail.

Who's 'blaming' the war on Versailles?


Which was my original point. I have met several germans who blamed the war on versailles. Hence they are unaware.

I do love how the intertubes leads to talking in circles. I suspect we actually probably agree on a lot of things, had we not been talking at cross purposes.

Who's 'blaming' the war on Versailles?


The treaty of Versailles was indirectly responsible for setting the stage for the second world war.

Germany never really recovered economically from its punative terms. When the Great Depression hit, the Germans were in desperate shape.

Enter Hitler: a decisive man with a plan that made the trains run on time...

Which was my original point. I have met several germans who blamed the war on versailles. Hence they are unaware.
If they solely blame it on Versailles, then I'd sorta agree with you.

You just seemed to give it too little credence, IMO.

I do love how the intertubes leads to talking in circles. I suspect we actually probably agree on a lot of things, had we not been talking at cross purposes.
Ahh, teh interweb.

If they solely blame it on Versailles, then I'd sorta agree with you.


That's basically what it was.

That's basically what it was.
Well, let us stop arguing over nowt, eh? :p

Let's get back to why we all hate America





j/k!

For some reason, I can't find a NVA smilie...
North-Vietnamese Army or Nationale Volksarmee?

(And I made this one myself, so good luck with finding anything close...)
I was wrong. My opinion was flawed because it was based on old data. Mea culpa.
Don't sweat it.:cool: I belong to a generation that has been more than sufficiently educated on the topic. So much that I sometimes can't even bother any more - historical responsibility is good, but only as long as it doesn't start taking over your daily life and becomes a burden.
As a German, I have two responsibilities: 1) To make sure our past won't be forgotten and 2) To make sure that it doesn't repeat itself.

1) is pretty much taken care of not only by ourselves but also by the rest of the world - although their knowledge is often lacking
2) is where some conflicts can arise with the path the Bush administration has chosen to persue.

Well, let us stop arguing over nowt, eh? :p

Let's get back to why we all hate America





j/k!

:p

North-Vietnamese Army or Nationale Volksarmee?

(And I made this one myself, so good luck with finding anything close...)

Nationale Volksarmee.

Hitler was in power in 1934, and the clause about not being allowed a military was not repudiated.
The guilt clause was the cherry on the top of this huge pile of humiliation, and the German public was extremely resentful towards this particulare clause. More than about the reparations, they had been common practice for a long time.

Ergo, it was the failure of the League of Nations to act in opposition to Germany's aggressive tendencies...those same actions that cast off the practical application of the Treaty of Versailles.

Well, okay. It was naivete and reluctance of the major powers--Great Britain, France, Russia--to say "no" to Hitler.

So it was a lack of concerted willpower, via the League, to halt German appeasement.

...man. If only we could a leader who actually did that in the US...

Yah, but he's confused hitler wif teh mussolini.

2) is where some conflicts can arise with the path the Bush administration has chosen to persue.

Meaning...?

Enter Hitler: a decisive man with a plan that made the trains run on time...

...man. If only we could a leader who actually did that in the US...

Yah, but he's confused hitler wif teh mussolini.

Technically, yes, but I believe it has become a figure of speech, so to speak.

Technically, yes, but I believe it has become a figure of speech, so to speak.
Vaguely related linky (http://www.xkcd.com/282/).

we may be scapegoats, but that doesn't necessarily mean we didn't earn it.

That is kind of like saying the Jews earned it during WW2. America like every country has done stupid things..... To me its very simple, yes the US has made some horrible mistakes, but this country is still far better than any other one(IMO) and if anyone wants to be the only super power they can come try. Oh also on a side note, anyone who claims to be anti-American should look at ever thing they do and get rid of everything they have, use or eat that is American.

So basically what you're saying is that most Americans are too stupid to think for themselves or to care about politics and that hence people like Bush get to be President and hence it's nobody's fault?



Almost. If you actually did vote for Bush, then maybe some tiny fraction of blame can be laid at your feet. But since the election was rigged and he was therefore never supposed to be president in the first place, it becomes more the fault of the process that rigged it. This of course involved Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris, Roger Ailes, Fox News (and the rest of the TV networks dumbly following what Fox said) and ultimately the Supreme Court. The whole sorry debacle has already been thoroughly documented, so I'm not going to go through it in detail here.


When half the country votes for the guy, that's not an accident. It's because they wanted to vote for him. Twice.


Yes indeed. I could point out that voting for Bush the first time could be seen as a honest mistake, while voting for him again just made you look stupid. But that's been said so many times in one form or another that it's almost a cliche.

More to the point, the votes Bush got don't really represent support for him. They do represent support for the Republican party - the leader of said party is somewhat irrelevant. This I will have to explain:
Broadly speaking, the Republican party stands for certain issues that a certain section of society will always vote for, despite the shortcomings of the party in other areas. These issues include: Anti-Immigration, Anti-Gay, Anti-Liberal, Anti-Abortion, Pro-Catholic-church (and concomitantly anti-seperation-of-church-and-state), Pro-Guns, etc.
As far as voters are concerned, these issues tend to take precedence over arguably more important areas such as foreign policy, economic / monetary policy, trade policy, etc. Of course, this is helped by the tendency of politicans and news networks to shy away from any policy that can't be summarised with a ten second sound-bite.
Hence the Republican party can (and does) get away with having a disastrous foreign policy, an unrealistic (not to mention virtually non existent) economic policy and a federal deficit that would make Reagan blush - because they've kept the public mind occupied with other more emotional but less important issues.



So just because the split wasn't 70-30 I can't criticize the roughly 50% who are in favour of the current administration's politics?



That's not what I said. Of course you can critiscise them, but as I've tried to make clear, the policies that really matter are obfuscated, so your critiscisms will be either misplaced or irrelevant.


And really - what do you expect people to say? The US is invading Iraq over made-up reasons, they're creating more terrorist recruits than they can aim a gun at every day, they're not signing climate treaties, they're making bilateral agreements to keep their soldiers out of international courts - that's American politics. So, what, we should say "that's the politics of one half of the American people, the other half either silently agrees, doesn't care, or is opposed to it"? Everybody knows that, but that doesn't mean your local newscaster is going to get his tongue tied by saying it 10 times in every show.

Of course every thinking person knows that. But you can't equate knowing about it with being able to do anything about it. As I've explained, those who vote republican don't do so on the basis of the foreign policy, climate policy, bilateral agreements, etc. Largely because those sorts of policy are never very well explained in the media (if they are even covered at all) and are not what people generally vote for in the first place.

So my point still stands - you can't blame the American people for the actions of the US government, because there is a massive disconnect between the two.

"they're creating more terrorist recruits than they can aim a gun at every day"


Ahahahaha. The middle east is like a bees nest, we want something there, but whatever way we get it we going to get screwed. When we defended Saudi Arabia in 1991 we pissed off Osama. When we invaded Iraq we pissed off a lot of people. If they are that pissed they want to pick up arms and fight the US in Iraq please do, I'll be looking forward to putting 2 to the chest and one in the head of anyone who wants to :p

Also similar to Vietnam we aren't allowed to fight to win. The more brutal wars are the faster they are over. History has taught us this. America has seem to have lost sight that wars aren't won they way we are fighting in Iraq. We are fighting an idlogical war over there and if we don't break their will to fight they will break ours.

Also we kill far more terrorists then they kill us. We have lost app. 4,000 over 5 years of war, they have lost far more than we have.

"they're creating more terrorist recruits than they can aim a gun at every day"


Ahahahaha. The middle east is like a bees nest, we want something there, but whatever way we get it we going to get screwed. When we defended Saudi Arabia in 1991 we pissed off Osama. When we invaded Iraq we pissed off a lot of people. If they are that pissed they want to pick up arms and fight the US in Iraq please do, I'll be looking forward to putting 2 to the chest and one in the head of anyone who wants to :p

Also similar to Vietnam we aren't allowed to fight to win. The more brutal wars are the faster they are over. History has taught us this. America has seem to have lost sight that wars aren't won they way we are fighting in Iraq. We are fighting an idlogical war over there and if we don't break their will to fight they will break ours.

Also we kill far more terrorists then they kill us. We have lost app. 4,000 over 5 years of war, they have lost far more than we have.

Isn't it funny how these people only actually became terrorists after the USA invaded? Coincidence, you think?

That is kind of like saying the Jews earned it during WW2. America like every country has done stupid things..... To me its very simple, yes the US has made some horrible mistakes, but this country is still far better than any other one(IMO) and if anyone wants to be the only super power they can come try. Oh also on a side note, anyone who claims to be anti-American should look at ever thing they do and get rid of everything they have, use or eat that is American.

The problem many people have with the US is not that is has made horrible mistakes (very few people these days have a bad opinion of you for slaughtering Native Americans, or importing slaves by the millions, or the Vietnam war). The problem is that the USA is one of the few countries that just seems to refuse to learn from these past mistakes, and therefore continues to make mistakes.
Cause, as you said, it's the best country in the world, right? So it can't be making any mistakes now, can it? And to think that it does would make me anti-American, wouldn't it?

The problem many people have with the US is not that is has made horrible mistakes (very few people these days have a bad opinion of you for slaughtering Native Americans, or importing slaves by the millions, or the Vietnam war). The problem is that the USA is one of the few countries that just seems to refuse to learn from these past mistakes, and therefore continues to make mistakes.
Cause, as you said, it's the best country in the world, right? So it can't be making any mistakes now, can it? And to think that it does would make me anti-American, wouldn't it?

It's a mixed bag though, isn't it? Intervention in the balkans was regarded as a good thing - for the most part. (And let's face it, had the US not got involved it would have been a total failure.)

Yet, other interventions are bad.

I'll grant that the US is no exemplar of good behavior. But at the same time the rest of the world has to make its mind up what good behavior really is.

Sorry but yes he is.



Yes he is.



That is fine.



Yes he is your president just like he is mine.

Cute, Corny, but no matter how many times you say something again and again, it doesn't make it true.

Isn't it funny how these people only actually became terrorists after the USA invaded? Coincidence, you think?

To me that like saying....I only started killing black people when they moved to my hometown. So if these said black people "invaded" my town and killed someone i knew it would be a coincidence if I started hanging them? It doesn't erase the fact that the people still had these thoughts before. You don't just wake up one morning and start hating a country that you know next to nothing about. There are a small amount of people who started to fight in Iraq simply because they had innocent family members killed. I have nothing but respect for those people, as long as they target military people only. A lot of the people fighting in Iraq are the people who were in power and don't want to lose it and then the ones who want an Islamic empire.

And as I said before, anyone who wants a good fight I'll be there soon.

It's a mixed bag though, isn't it? Intervention in the balkans was regarded as a good thing - for the most part. (And let's face it, had the US not got involved it would have been a total failure.)

Yet, other interventions are bad.

I'll grant that the US is no exemplar of good behavior. But at the same time the rest of the world has to make its mind up what good behavior really is.

The Balkans is something I as German am particularly ashamed about. Given the historic context, any German invention in the conflict would probably only have escalated matters, but the complete and total inaction, together with the early siding of Germany with the Croatians, was a political disaster with horrible consequences.

Personally, I think the first invasion of Iraq was justified, as were the Balkans. The 2nd invasion was in no way justifiable and has created the opposite of what the public was told was intended... the only way of losing more popularity now would be by withdrawing and leaving the country in the created turmoil.

To me that like saying....I only started killing black people when they moved to my hometown. So if these said black people "invaded" my town and killed someone i knew it would be a coincidence if I started hanging them? It doesn't erase the fact that the people still had these thoughts before. You don't just wake up one morning and start hating a country that you know next to nothing about. There are a small amount of people who started to fight in Iraq simply because they had innocent family members killed. I have nothing but respect for those people, as long as they target military people only. A lot of the people fighting in Iraq are the people who were in power and don't want to lose it and then the ones who want an Islamic empire.

And as I said before, anyone who wants a good fight I'll be there soon.

Given the number of civilian deaths at this point, I don't really think it's a minority who lost friends and loved ones.

No, very few people indeed wake up to hate a random country. But a country that invaded twice, with an interim period of starving your population, and is now right there in front of your doorstep killing more of your fellow countrymen... well, I'd like to see who wouldn't start hating it.

Please try and get your insults straight. Being anti-American is not being racist (Unless you are trying to claim that there is an ethnic homogeneity to the US population that no one has noticed).
Being anti-American for basically no reason (just lame excuses) is racist.

You might not be aware that the definition of racism applies to nationalities too, not just skin colours.

Being anti-American for basically no reason (just lame excuses) is racist.

You might not be aware that the definition of racism applies to nationalities too, not just skin colours.

Your serious?!? Racism is not liking a nationality, I must be a racist then, I hate America.

The thing that I found interesting is that in 2000 the US had a 78% approval rating, which since then has absolutely plummeted. That suggests to me that it's all about politics and especially the headlines created by it.

If the Republicans were to lose the next election and the successor were to pull out of Iraq and give up on the "change the world" doctrine, maybe contribute a bit more to the global campaign against climate change...how much do you think that would change things?

Quite significantly, I would imagine.

The French don't understand why the Americans opposed to the war aren't out in the streets every day until the war ends because, after bitching and talking about politics, going on strike is the French's third favorite passtime.

I think you've got us summed up quite accurately, yes. :D

Your serious?!? Racism is not liking a nationality, I must be a racist then, I hate America.

You hate people because of their nationality? That's ridiculous. There's inifinite diversity among Americans. A great many are intelligent, rational, open-minded people. Just like in any country.

I dislike the American people, loathe it's culture and hate it's government's policies. But I agree with their ideals. So I support America.

Personally, I think the first invasion of Iraq was justified, as were the Balkans. The 2nd invasion was in no way justifiable and has created the opposite of what the public was told was intended... the only way of losing more popularity now would be by withdrawing and leaving the country in the created turmoil.

But that's the point. You are drawing arbitrary lines about what is right and wrong based upon what you feel is justified. It really is a matter of personal preference at that point, and nothing more.

It really is a matter of personal preference at that point, and nothing more.Most things are. I quite dislike the Burmese regime, for example, because killing people offends my delicate sensibilities. That, by the way, is also why I dislike the US regime.

Most things are. I quite dislike the Burmese regime, for example, because killing people offends my delicate sensibilities. That, by the way, is also why I dislike the US regime.

Which is fine. But to claim there is some sort of higher principle at stake is ridiculous. (Or some form of moral high ground).

Which is fine. But to claim there is some sort of higher principle at stake is ridiculous. (Or some form of moral high ground).Why?

Why?

Because there isn't. You would be perfectly fine with invading a country if it suited your taste.

Because there isn't. You would be perfectly fine with invading a country if it suited your taste.How is that an argument for the absence of a moral high ground?

How is that an argument for the absence of a moral high ground?

Well, look, if you can find it, you are more than welcome to it.

Just remember it is built on sand.

Well, look, if you can find it, you are more than welcome to it.

Just remember it is built on sand.

We're using the sand to mix concrete. Granted, none of it will matter if the concrete is not mixed and poured correctly.

Which is fine. But to claim there is some sort of higher principle at stake is ridiculous. (Or some form of moral high ground).

I wasn't claiming that I consider things to be justified or unjustified based on my gut feeling. Aggression can - in my moral understanding - only ever be justified if it ends a significantly higher level of violence and aggression.

In the case of the Balkan war, violence of dramatic proportions had been rampant for years and intervention was direly needed.

In the case of the Iraq war, it's the other way around.

I wasn't claiming that I consider things to be justified or unjustified based on my gut feeling.Well, Lacadaemon is right that it's wholly subjective. If you didn't subscribe to some form of humanism, for example, you might not share the belief that massmurder for fun and profit isn't a wholesome national sport.

Off topic as it is though, I'm not so certain there's no moral high ground. In my understanding, such a thing is per definition that which allows the most individuals to persue their own agenda, and anti-humanistic ethics would seem to exclude that.

America ceased being a democracy years ago, people. Slowly and surely, we have slipped past it all. Politicians in the USA will do anything for the extra buck from lobbyists, including getting on their knees. To those who say we are responsible for what has happened to the world (the general populace of America that is), than they are DEAD wrong. Americans have no more say in politics than the citizens of Germany had during the reign of Hitler. We might say we vote for a president every four years, but in reality (where stupidty and ignorance reigns), we don't choose.

I am a sergeant in the United States Marines. I've already done two years in Iraq and I saw enough crime done on both sides to make me not able to sleep well during the night, the dreams horrible. However, this does not mean I want to pull out of the war. I do believe what we are doing over here is sending a clear message to the rest of the world; we will not be trampled on. We were attacked by Islamic terrorists and the World Trade Center came down (including one of my cousins who died in the attacks). We struck first at Afganistan. Afganistan was the right move I believe, but we went off track right there. Way off track.

We attacked Iraq for several reasons. We knew we were getting on worse terms with Iran and we needed a stepping stone into Iran if the situation called for it and it sent a message to the Islam World. Iraq is near the center of the Middle East. With control of Iraq, we can hop into any other country in the Middle East without having to do political hurtles in Turkey to do so. If Iran finally does make an atom bomb, beware. It puts it in range for an attack on Europe as well as Israel. Iran has sworn to wipe out Israel and as far as I can see, the only thing Europeans are good at doing is surrendering (excluding the Brits. Damn good fighters, the one's I've met). And Iraq was a bad place people. Did you see what they did to the Kurds in the North? Hell no. You're not in Iraq so shut the Hell up.

And to all those Europeans who dislike the America; shut up. Who watched your asses during the Cold War so you didn't get swalloped up by the USSR? Who rebuilt Europe up after WWII? Who practically saved the entire damn world from collapsing under Hitler and Japan? We did. However, when the Cold War ended, we went down on our strength. Ever since, people have walked all over us and we haven't done jack shit. North Korea fired a nuclear weapon! Back then, we would have been fighting already in North Korea. However, because of politics and general disregard for safety, we sat back and talked some more shit.

But I'm just a soldier. I follow orders and I carry out them. I have not done anything illegally in Iraq and I'm grateful for that. On a normal basis, I enjoy Europeans companies. Their nice folks who you can actually have a conversation. But one thing you don't say to me, America is evil. Because when I go back to Iraq, which I will be in two weeks, I don't want to tell the boys under me that the country we represent, so they say in Europe, is evil, and we must be because we elected the president. Say that to my face, I just might snap you in half.

snip
Was that supposed to be a comedy act?

Was that supposed to be a comedy act?

Watch out or he might just snap you in half ;)

Meaning...?
Meaning illegaly waging wars of agression, abducting innocent people from all around the world, installing concentration camps, torturing people, disregarding international law, committing war crimes, ... the list goes on.

After WW2 and at the Nuremburg Trials, the U.S. have used standards that I in return expect from the U.S. as well now. It's what they themselves have established to try nazis, while now they choose to follow down the same path and disregard their own ruling.

Take a look at http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12463452&postcount=23 in http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=521672 and maybe it'll get clearer for you...

Nationale Volksarmee.
Sorry, no can do. :p

But I'm just a soldier. I follow orders and I carry out them. I have not done anything illegally in Iraq and I'm grateful for that.(...) Because when I go back to Iraq, which I will be in two weeks, I don't want to tell the boys under me that the country we represent, so they say in Europe, is evil, and we must be because we elected the president. Say that to my face, I just might snap you in half.
See, that's the problem...

"Only following orders" is no excuse - at all.

And you being in Iraq is illegal in itself because the whole war is illegal.

As for threatening people who have and voice an opinion different from yours (free speech, eh?) - that is piss-poor debating and you should know better.

But don't worry, the Endsieg in Iraq draws near - all it needs is staying the course and using Wunderwaffen. Place your trust in your elected Führer, why don't you?

And as for "saving our asses" - you know the U.S. did that purely out of self-interest, not because you're a bunch of do-gooders.

So don't tell me to shut up about any of these topics.

(On a side note, hope you and your guys will be okay.)

See, that's the problem...I'm pretty sure he meant to be sarcastic :p

I'm pretty sure he meant to be sarcastic :p
If he was, I blame it on empty batteries in the sarcasm meter.

Before I start, I'd like to state at the outset that I am not a knee-jerk anti-American who automatically assumes the worst of it in all situations...

So many people don't like the United States, we are becoming the like the Jews where in the 1920s and 30s. Everything is our fault. Global warming, terrorism....ect. Its all America's fault. We are our 21 century scapegoat. Enjoy

we may be scapegoats, but that doesn't necessarily mean we didn't earn it
It's not all 'your' fault, but the way that the U.S conducts itself on the world stage is terrible. The whole 'might is right' ethos of a state committed to being the world's sole superpower, brooking no rival, was never going to engender anything other than suspicion, disdain or outright hatred amongst the rest of the planet's population.

It would have worked just fine in an environment where the only players were actual nation states, since such entities present nice little geographical targets and can be invaded/suborned by pure military power. In an era where your current targets are sub-national (i.e. terrorists) who will inevitably end up launching some form of wmd attack (be it nuclear, chemical, biological or other) it is irrelevant, and no amount of posturing will change that.

Off the top of my head, the U.S. has refused to ratify The Landmine Treaty, The Law of The Sea Convention, The Kyoto Protocol, the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, numerous attempts to keep space non-militarised, attempts by the UN to curb development of bioweapons and the International Criminal Court to name but a few. I'm aware that many of these treaties are flawed in uncountable ways, but it is this trend by the U.S. of non-participation in global movements that further alienates the rest of the world.

The world, as pointed out elsewhere in the thread, needs a 'boogeyman'. By virtue of its aggressively insular policies regarding dealings with the rest of the world the U.S. makes for an easy target. As I said before, I'm not one of those who automatically blames them for all the world's ills, but they certainly don't seem to be doing themselves any P.R. favours in any sphere.

on a side note, anyone who claims to be anti-American should look at ever thing they do and get rid of everything they have, use or eat that is AmericanWhy?

Are you suggesting that knowledge gained from the discoveries of American-born/funded scientists should forever be used only by Americans? I suppose you're choosing to ignore the fact that much of the basics underpinning astronomy, chemistry, algebra at al are of Arabic origin.

In any case, if all the people holding any anti-American sentiments were to stop consuming your goods, it would be a pretty bleak day for your economy (and would have knock-on effects that would be bad for the world as a whole).

And to all those Europeans who dislike the America; shut up. Who watched your asses during the Cold War so you didn't get swalloped up by the USSR? Who rebuilt Europe up after WWII? Who practically saved the entire damn world from collapsing under Hitler and Japan? We did. However, when the Cold War ended, we went down on our strength. Ever since, people have walked all over us and we haven't done jack shit. North Korea fired a nuclear weapon! Back then, we would have been fighting already in North Korea. However, because of politics and general disregard for safety, we sat back and talked some more shit.

But I'm just a soldier. I follow orders and I carry out them. I have not done anything illegally in Iraq and I'm grateful for that. On a normal basis, I enjoy Europeans companies. Their nice folks who you can actually have a conversation. But one thing you don't say to me, America is evil. Because when I go back to Iraq, which I will be in two weeks, I don't want to tell the boys under me that the country we represent, so they say in Europe, is evil, and we must be because we elected the president. Say that to my face, I just might snap you in half.
Wow, just wow.

I'm a European who dislikes the way that the U.S. goes about its business, and I'm not going to shut up. I presume that that makes me a legitimate target for being snapped in half. Seriously though, thanks for underlining the playground bully stereotype that so many of your compatriots are trying to distance themselves from. This is the kind of thing that contributes to anti-American feelings all over the globe. Can you honestly not recognise that?

"Only following orders" is no excuse - at all.

And you being in Iraq is illegal in itself because the whole war is illegal.

But don't worry, the Endsieg in Iraq draws near - all it needs is staying the course and using Wunderwaffen. Place your trust in your elected Führer, why don't you?

And as for "saving our asses" - you know the U.S. did that purely out of self-interest, not because you're a bunch of do-gooders.


"Only following orders" is the premise of any military structure. You can't have soldiers questioning their orders at every turn, otherwise you cease to have a functioning military. You may not like it, but in the real world it's how things work.

Define illegal. Because opinions are not law. At all.

Interestingly enough, you seek to demean President Bush by drawing a quanit comparison between the US and Germany, pre WWII. BUt that's just it, you see. Bush is our fuhrer, our leader. Yes, he was elected. Oh, and so was Hitler, by the way. But you already knew that. And so, incidentally, was FDR. And Merkel. And Blair. And...the list goes on.

And as for saving your asses, motive is irrelevant. Every country acts in its own self-interest, because the international order is anarchy.


Meaning illegaly waging wars of agression, abducting innocent people from all around the world, installing concentration camps, torturing people, disregarding international law, committing war crimes, ... the list goes on.

After WW2 and at the Nuremburg Trials, the U.S. have used standards that I in return expect from the U.S. as well now. It's what they themselves have established to try nazis, while now they choose to follow down the same path and disregard their own ruling.

Take a look at http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.ph...2&postcount=23 in http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=521672 and maybe it'll get clearer for you...

Why do you expect that?

First, this whole illegal wars thing. Would you care to identify a legal war, or please explain what makes one illegal?

The other accusations are somewhat legitimate, though you're falling into propaganda. Concentration camps? Find me one that the US has put up.

Similarities exist. I don't deny that. But parallels can be drawn between any two nations for propaganda purposes. I don't defend everything the US does as right. Gitmo should have been closed years ago. Abu Ghraib was a disgusting breach of human rights. The manner in which the government imprisons "terrorists" is grossly out of line.

But if you think the US is another Germany under Hitler, then here's some news for you. Tell me, how do you think Hitler's Germany would have acted with the kind of power now possessed by the United States? How about 10 years ago? 20? Right at the fall of the Soviet Union, the US had enough political and military strength that it de facto ran the Western world. By hegemonic standards, the US is pretty benign, wouldn't you say? Maybe you wouldn't. I guess it doesn't really matter, because the US is so much an integral part of world affairs that anything it does is going to generate hatred and exacting scrutiny. The fate of the hegemon, no? Ah well. Fight on, oh courageous America-basher. Keep fighting the good fight, and maybe tyranny and oppression will rise again.

And you can blame the American Education System for that.

And religious crackpots trying to push theocratic ideas as science.

"Only following orders" is the premise of any military structure. You can't have soldiers questioning their orders at every turn, otherwise you cease to have a functioning military. You may not like it, but in the real world it's how things work.

Define illegal. Because opinions are not law. At all.It's a Catch-22. The US is in a position to take a shit on international law whenever it wants, and it's been doing so routinely since the end of WWII.

Military personnel are responsible for the orders they follow, as was established in the aftermath of WWII. US soldiers included. They're even taught so as part of their basic training.

US national laws makes it illegal for US military personnel to refuse some orders that are in violation of international law.

Since only the US is in any sort of position to hold the US accountable, the net result is that you'll go to prison for refusing illegal orders, and get your pay and perhaps a shiny medal for being a war criminal.

Opinions, in this case, are law. As long as the US administrations are of the opinion that international law isn't, it effectively isn't. It's really that simple. And it's just another one of those things the rest of the world doesn't find terribly charming.

Wow, just wow.

I'm a European who dislikes the way that the U.S. goes about its business, and I'm not going to shut up. I presume that that makes me a legitimate target for being snapped in half. Seriously though, thanks for underlining the playground bully stereotype that so many of your compatriots are trying to distance themselves from. This is the kind of thing that contributes to anti-American feelings all over the globe. Can you honestly not recognise that?

Fortunately, a silent majority of us ignorant Americans could not possibly give less of a flying fig what you effeminate euroweenies think of us. We do the heavy lifting, you bitch and moan. Repeat ad nauseum. All emotion and broad generalizations, very, very short on cold, hard facts. Most of you retards make me stop reading at the "illegal war in Iraq" bit. It's not, never has been. You dolts need new talking points and a solid education.

Fortunately, a silent majority of us ignorant Americans could not possibly give less of a flying fig what you effeminate euroweenies think of us. We do the heavy lifting, you bitch and moan. Repeat ad nauseum. All emotion and broad generalizations, very, very short on cold, hard facts. Most of you retards make me stop reading at the "illegal war in Iraq" bit. It's not, never has been. You dolts need new talking points and a solid education.

Generally, talking points have rather little to do with either education or facts. Now, anyone who beleives for a second that it is either polite or intelligent to go around provoking members of the single largest economic superpower in the world (see, the EU is bigger than the US, and their economy isn't in the shit shape our is in), is clearly short on both facts and education, but, in the future, perhaps you should keep that in mind.

And, yeah, you make us look bad, and we don't need any more morons making us look worse at this point.

All emotion and broad generalizations, very, very short on cold, hard facts.
Right back at Ya.

This whole 'Anti-America'-trend is really getting out of hand in Belgium, for an example. Teachers openly accuse Bush of mistreating his country and the Iraqi People. For God's sake, it's LEGAL war! Teachers should be neutral people, offering children a chance to form their own opinion.
All they really do is setting everybody against anything to do with American culture. One of my former teachers actually tried boycotting Coca-Cola by vandalizing the automat distributing drinks. I think we should stop this madness and let international organisations sort out anything that might be wrong in their national program.
Let us just accept what we see and try to understand their motives. After all, why would so many foreigners want to go to America if it were such a bad country?
All this to say that instead of making me dislike America, my teachers have actually made me one the most 'Pro-Americans' in Europe. Which is not saying much seeing as the whole EU seems to start growing grey hair at the idea of the United States, but still.. .
Way to go.

And, yeah, you make us look bad, and we don't need any more morons making us look worse at this point.Yes well, we have our froothing jingoists too. Don't worry.

Yes well, we have our froothing jingoists too. Don't worry.

Not to get in an "anything you can do" argument, but, for the moment, ours are worse.

Not to get in an "anything you can do" argument, but, for the moment, ours are worse.Hehe, no shit. I was just trying to be polite.

See, that's the problem...

"Only following orders" is no excuse - at all.

And you being in Iraq is illegal in itself because the whole war is illegal.

As for threatening people who have and voice an opinion different from yours (free speech, eh?) - that is piss-poor debating and you should know better.

But don't worry, the Endsieg in Iraq draws near - all it needs is staying the course and using Wunderwaffen. Place your trust in your elected Führer, why don't you?

And as for "saving our asses" - you know the U.S. did that purely out of self-interest, not because you're a bunch of do-gooders.

So don't tell me to shut up about any of these topics.

(On a side note, hope you and your guys will be okay.)

Indeed. To the poster you were quoting: Oh, ye of narrow Weltanschauung. :p

Hehe, no shit. I was just trying to be polite.

I'm not sure whether I should be appalled that it's gotten to the point that saying "We have crazies, too!" is polite on the grounds of offering some level of comfort about our crazies, or whether I should be grateful for the gesture. ;)

I'm not sure whether I should be appalled that it's gotten to the point that saying "We have crazies, too!" is polite on the grounds of offering some level of comfort about our crazies, or whether I should be grateful for the gesture. ;)I would have said both, but on second thought, that's both pointless and unpleasant. So why not have a beer instead?

*snip

Hang on... ar eyou saying the American people can't be blamed for letting democracy slowly disintegrate? Does that then mean that no German adult in the 1930s is to blame for Hitler's rise? Really?
And the rest of the world should just shut up now that America is no longer a democracy and still be grateful towards it? It shouldn't criticise, but stand by and just watch?

I think there are a good few too many contradictions in that post right there...

Given the number of civilian deaths at this point, I don't really think it's a minority who lost friends and loved ones.

No, very few people indeed wake up to hate a random country. But a country that invaded twice, with an interim period of starving your population, and is now right there in front of your doorstep killing more of your fellow countrymen... well, I'd like to see who wouldn't start hating it.

Was the frist invasion not a good reason? Iraqi that starved during that time were Saddam fault. There are many people in Iraq who do like and even love the United States. There are no good counts on civilian deaths all of them will be bias. There are so many numbers out there from so many different groups. Which civilian death count are you talking about. 65,000 or 650,000. Also within that count are going to be terrorist who were killed and not counted as enemy.

And as I have said anyone who wants to fight, can fight and die for whatever cause they want, they will lose their will to fight if enough die.

"Only following orders" is the premise of any military structure. You can't have soldiers questioning their orders at every turn, otherwise you cease to have a functioning military. You may not like it, but in the real world it's how things work.

When I served in German Bundeswehr, I was teached that I don't have to follow all orders. E.g. if a order violates international law, I - as a German soldier - am not allowed to follow it.

And as I have said anyone who wants to fight, can fight and die for whatever cause they want, they will lose their will to fight if enough die.

It's funny how many people thought that throughout history. And how next to none of them ever were right. Read a psychological analysis of the phenomen of terrorism if you get a chance, I guarantee you'll learn some very interesting things.

38% of South Koreans disaprove?

Fuck, if it wasn't for us, they wouldn't even have a fucking country.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,496731,00.html


I'm not sure I have a lot to add to it, the article seems to cover all the bases. Nonetheless, I think it's worth posting.

The thing that I found interesting is that in 2000 the US had a 78% approval rating, which since then has absolutely plummeted. That suggests to me that it's all about politics and especially the headlines created by it.

If the Republicans were to lose the next election and the successor were to pull out of Iraq and give up on the "change the world" doctrine, maybe contribute a bit more to the global campaign against climate change...how much do you think that would change things?


Respect has historically ben easier to lose than to gain. It'll take quite some time to fully recover from the Bush Doctrine. :(

38% of South Koreans disaprove?

Fuck, if it wasn't for us, they wouldn't even have a fucking country.

Oh yes, I'm sure they're all extremely grateful for four decades of repressive US-backed dictatorships running their country...

38% of South Koreans disaprove?

Fuck, if it wasn't for us, they wouldn't even have a fucking country.

Resting on your laurels much?

In fact, according to the 2006 National Geographic-Roper Survey of Geographic Literacy (http://www.nationalgeographic.com/roper2006/findings.html):


According to that report (p.26), 6% of Americans can't find the United States on a map of the world. :eek: And 65% can't find the UK...

p.36: 30% of Americans believe that the most heavily fortified border in the world is the border between the US and Mexico.

According to that report (p.26), 6% of Americans can't find the United States on a map of the world. :eek: And 65% can't find the UK...

p.36: 30% of Americans believe that the most heavily fortified border in the world is the border between the US and Mexico.

Yeah, even I know it's the one between Mr. Smith and Mr. Jones in Harpenden :p

p.36: 30% of Americans believe that the most heavily fortified border in the world is the border between the US and Mexico.

"China? Are we talking about China?"
"Yes, of course, how many nations have built a great wall to protect themselves from barbarians?"
"Hm, China...and Western Germany!"
:D

"China? Are we talking about China?"
"Yes, of course, how many nations have built a great wall to protect themselves from barbarians?"
"Hm, China...and Western Germany!"
:DAnd Palestine.. eh.. No, wait... :p

Fuck, if it wasn't for us, they *insert inane comment here*

Exemplifies common reasons for anti-americanism. Arrogance, self-gratification and the big "us".

"China? Are we talking about China?"
"Yes, of course, how many nations have built a great wall to protect themselves from barbarians?"
"Hm, China...and Western Germany!"
:D

America. They want to protect themselves from teh ebil Mexicanz.

"* Only 37% of young Americans can find Iraq on a map—though U.S. troops have been there since 2003.
* 6 in 10 young Americans don't speak a foreign language fluently.
* 20% of young Americans think Sudan is in Asia. (It's the largest country in Africa.)
* 48% of young Americans believe the majority population in India is Muslim. (It's Hindu—by a landslide.)
* Half of young Americans can't find New York on a map."

You know, I've always wondered why Indians tend to end up victims of hate crimes ostensibly aimed at Arab Muslims, and now this is a very sad revelation. The They All Look Alike Disease has reached an epidemic proportion that AIDS can only hope to achieve.

America. They want to protect themselves from teh ebil Mexicanz.

The "Fortress Europe" does the same, just say "Africans" instead of "Mexicans". It seems to be a problem of the whole Western World, not only US.

You know, I've always wondered why Indians tend to end up victims of hate crimes ostensibly aimed at Arab Muslims, and now this is a very sad revelation. The They All Look Alike Disease has reached an epidemic proportion that AIDS can only hope to achieve.

The types of people who commit hate crimes aren't likely to be the types of people who can make basic ethnic distinctions.

You know, I've always wondered why Indians tend to end up victims of hate crimes ostensibly aimed at Arab Muslims, and now this is a very sad revelation. The They All Look Alike Disease has reached an epidemic proportion that AIDS can only hope to achieve.

Yep. Not the yanks that have that one though. Sikhs got a hard time in Britain from a certain element (because Osama wears a turban...)

Yep. Not the yanks that have that one though. Sikhs got a hard time in Britain from a certain element (because Osama wears a turban...)

The same folks that attack paediatricians instead of paedophiles

You know, I've always wondered why Indians tend to end up victims of hate crimes ostensibly aimed at Arab Muslims, and now this is a very sad revelation. The They All Look Alike Disease has reached an epidemic proportion that AIDS can only hope to achieve.

I vaguely remember hearing about an Indian-American Sikh being murdered by Muslim-hating whites after 9/11... I despair of a huge chunk of humanity. :(

The same folks that attack paediatricians instead of paedophiles

Does that really happen?

"Only following orders" is the premise of any military structure. You can't have soldiers questioning their orders at every turn, otherwise you cease to have a functioning military. You may not like it, but in the real world it's how things work.
In the real world, following orders that lead to you committing crimes like invading another country and thus breaking international law usually lead to consequences - unless, of course, the perpetrator is the almighty U.S. - then, might apparently makes right.
Define illegal. Because opinions are not law. At all.
I don't have to. International Law and the United Nations Charter do that quite nicely. Things that the U.S. only care for when it's for their own benefit.
Interestingly enough, you seek to demean President Bush by drawing a quanit comparison between the US and Germany, pre WWII. BUt that's just it, you see. Bush is our fuhrer, our leader. Yes, he was elected. Oh, and so was Hitler, by the way. But you already knew that. And so, incidentally, was FDR. And Merkel. And Blair. And...the list goes on.
Interestingly enough, I don't have to demean Bush - he gets the job done well enough on his own.
What I am saying however is that it's fascinating to watch a country like the U.S. turn from land of the free, home of the brave into land of the 'fraid, home of the "safe" - at the cost of your own liberties and freedoms, that is.
And as for saving your asses, motive is irrelevant. Every country acts in its own self-interest, because the international order is anarchy.
Motive is relevant when you're only saving our asses to save your own.

And while certainly every country acts in its own self-interest, the U.S. have this nasty habit of doing it at the expense of others around the whole world.
Why do you expect that?
Because that's the set of rules and standards the U.S. has decided to establish after WW2 during the Nuremburg Trials.

It's only fair to expect you guys to play by your own set of rules.
First, this whole illegal wars thing. Would you care to identify a legal war, or please explain what makes one illegal?
Actually, no. I don't care to elaborate. But google it and you'll find out for yourself.
The other accusations are somewhat legitimate, though you're falling into propaganda. Concentration camps? Find me one that the US has put up.
The thing the U.S. has installed in Guantanamo Bay fits the definition of concentration camp just fine.
(The Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed. defines concentration camp as: a camp where non-combatants of a district are accommodated, such as those instituted by Lord Kitchener during the South African war of 1899-1902; one for the internment of political prisoners, foreign nationals, etc., esp. as organized by the Nazi regime in Germany before and during the war of 1939-45.)
Similarities exist. I don't deny that. But parallels can be drawn between any two nations for propaganda purposes. I don't defend everything the US does as right. Gitmo should have been closed years ago. Abu Ghraib was a disgusting breach of human rights. The manner in which the government imprisons "terrorists" is grossly out of line.[QUOTE]
Exactly. And as a citizen of a befriended and allied nation, it's not only my right but also obligation to point these things out.
Just because way too many of your fellow compatriots don't give a damn doesn't mean what your elected officials do is okay and dandy.
[QUOTE]But if you think the US is another Germany under Hitler, then here's some news for you. Tell me, how do you think Hitler's Germany would have acted with the kind of power now possessed by the United States? How about 10 years ago? 20? Right at the fall of the Soviet Union, the US had enough political and military strength that it de facto ran the Western world. By hegemonic standards, the US is pretty benign, wouldn't you say? Maybe you wouldn't.
No, I wouldn't. But coming from a country with the history it has, maybe it's easier from an outside perspective to see how much your country has changed over the last couple of years - and not to the better.
Take it as warning from someone who's learned from his country's past and don't simply dismiss it the way you do.
I guess it doesn't really matter, because the US is so much an integral part of world affairs that anything it does is going to generate hatred and exacting scrutiny. The fate of the hegemon, no? Ah well. Fight on, oh courageous America-basher. Keep fighting the good fight, and maybe tyranny and oppression will rise again.
Certainly, the way the U.S. are behaving is not earning them any brownie points in my book.
But if name-calling is the only argument that you have left, it's telling.

Take a look at Germany and how it has changed from dictatorship into a true and working democracy and stayed that way - maybe you guys could actually learn a thing or two from us.
But that would mean you'd have to be willing to learn and improve in the first place - something that sadly I don't see happening across the big pond any time soon, for tyranny and oppression already are on the rise again - in the U.S.!

I can't believe that the country who tried to take over the whole earth and murdered 5 million people because of their religion/race have the right to judge anyone about politics. NAZI's remember them europe? Islamic Facists are the same thing. Your continent is being invaded, for christs sake they burned Paris and murder film makers. They riot and call for the death of an author because he is knighted and all he did was writ a fiction book that they thought insulted them. WAKE UP quit with the insane political correctness crap and call a spade a spade and don't worry who you offend because they offend tons of people with public stonings of teenagers and car bombs.:sniper:

Does that really happen?

There were the nightly protests in Paulsgrove in Portsmouth and the home of a paediatrician was wrongly targeted by an angry mob.

Unfortunately

Link (http://archive.thisishampshire.net/2004/12/16/16148.html)

I can't believe that the country who tried to take over the whole earth and murdered 5 million people because of their religion/race have the right to judge anyone about politics. NAZI's remember them europe? Islamic Facists are the same thing. Your continent is being invaded, for christs sake they burned Paris and murder film makers. They riot and call for the death of an author because he is knighted and all he did was writ a fiction book that they thought insulted them. WAKE UP quit with the insane political correctness crap and call a spade a spade and don't worry who you offend because they offend tons of people with public stonings of teenagers and car bombs.:sniper:

:rolleyes: Wow what a well thought out and balanced argument you've made there

:rolleyes: Wow what a well thought out and balanced argument you've made there

It is the truth. Why is it when history is brought up you clowns ignore it? your political correctness will be the death of europe. I love europe but hate what it has become. i have travelled all over and do not want it to be like the middle east.

WAKE UP quit with the insane political correctness crap and call a spade a spade and don't worry who you offend...
Well, OK. You are SO full of shit.

Well, OK. You are SO full of shit.

I love the random mindless dribble. the reason you do so is because you can't argue with truth.:upyours:

Avoid the n00b smilies.

I love the random mindless dribble.
I bet you do. You produce said commodity afterall.

Avoid the n00b smilies.

I bet you do. You produce said commodity afterall.

Insults is what this turns to? Why is that? probably because you know what is say is truth. it actually bums me out that the great educated continent of Europe can only insult and not stay on topic.

Insults is what this turns to? Why is that? probably because you know what is say is truth. it actually bums me out that the great educated continent of Europe can only insult and not stay on topic.

Paris was not burned down, people get killed by lunatics all the time, and kindly get your Government stop paying off certain Europeam govts to allow you torture muslims on their territory, thanks.

I can't believe that the country who tried to take over the whole earth and murdered 5 million people because of their religion/race have the right to judge anyone about politics. NAZI's remember them europe? Islamic Facists are the same thing. Your continent is being invaded, for christs sake they burned Paris and murder film makers. They riot and call for the death of an author because he is knighted and all he did was writ a fiction book that they thought insulted them. WAKE UP quit with the insane political correctness crap and call a spade a spade and don't worry who you offend because they offend tons of people with public stonings of teenagers and car bombs.:sniper:

Here i will rewind and lets get back on the topic.

Insults is what this turns to? Why is that? probably because you know what is say is truth. it actually bums me out that the great educated continent of Europe can only insult and not stay on topic.
What? This is your first post in this thread:
I can't believe that the country who tried to take over the whole earth and murdered 5 million people because of their religion/race have the right to judge anyone about politics. NAZI's remember them europe? Islamic Facists are the same thing. Your continent is being invaded, for christs sake they burned Paris and murder film makers. They riot and call for the death of an author because he is knighted and all he did was writ a fiction book that they thought insulted them. WAKE UP quit with the insane political correctness crap and call a spade a spade and don't worry who you offend because they offend tons of people with public stonings of teenagers and car bombs.:sniper:
Are you really expecting serious debate? I'm not been paid to educate you, but after a post like that I sure enjoy ridiculing you.

I can't believe that(...):sniper:
Me neither. You have yet to make a single argument that sticks.

If there's one people who have learned from their past it's us. Maybe you should consider taking the odd history lesson?

As for the n00bish smileys - eat it:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/ultima.gif

Why? do you not see the chaos around you? are you wearing blinders? or are you afraid? "You can please some of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time" I am sure you have heard that quote. Why is it that Europians worry about who they offend at the sake of their safety? Soon you will see the errror of defending the people who want you dead and will beg the USA to come help you yet again.

Why? do you not see the chaos around you? are you wearing blinders? or are you afraid? "You can please some of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time" I am sure you have heard that quote. Why is it that Europians worry about who they offend at the sake of their safety? Soon you will see the errror of defending the people who want you dead and will beg the USA to come help you yet again.
And now you're quoting Bob Marley lyrics? Dude, you're hilarious.

First people from the States complain about our bluntness in political debate and now that's exactly what you're criticizing? Make up your mind!

Just because Europeans like to think things out instead of going in guns blazing without a clue, plan, or oversight doesn't mean we have very strong convictions and are ready to stand up for them. We simply do it differently, a point that you have just proven again.

Me neither. You have yet to make a single argument that sticks.

If there's one people who have learned from their past it's us. Maybe you should consider taking the odd history lesson?

As for the n00bish smileys - eat it:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/ultima.gif

Your country refuses to live up to their past, they ban all discusion of NAZI's and want to squash all debate. they do not teach it in their schools and it is outlawed to even bring it up. How can you state that everything is so great in Germany? Turks have most of your jobs and unemployment is over 10%

Could it just be that Europeans are used to constantly being threatened and don't see it as sufficient reason to cave in and panic?
Yes. That, and considering being threatened as no reason to give up civil rights and liberties for the sake of some temporary feeling of false safety.

Why? do you not see the chaos around you? are you wearing blinders? or are you afraid? "You can please some of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time" I am sure you have heard that quote. Why is it that Europians worry about who they offend at the sake of their safety? Soon you will see the errror of defending the people who want you dead and will beg the USA to come help you yet again.

Could it just be that Europeans are used to constantly being threatened and don't see it as sufficient reason to cave in and panic?

:sniper:Anti-Americanism is spread through the lies of the champagin socalists, and nannie states do gooders. America ideas for the purisuit of happiness is what makes America great. True, America is more conservative than the media want the public to belive, and yet its also more populist at the same time. The goverment foreign policy is blunder at times, but as a American still gotta support the for what the country stands for, and support the goverment. Most of the west and world there a shcizm between what the elites want and the masses. The average joe American or Brazilian, or German most days of the week are just scraping by making a living, and helping the local family, and community out. Happiness of the people should be goverment policy instead of divide, conquer, lie about things.

Could it just be that Europeans are used to constantly being threatened and don't see it as sufficient reason to cave in and panic?Or perhaps it's just that the threat beer poses to the fabric of our societies is greater by an order of several gazillion magnitudes...

United States Earth, the BNP isn't a good source of info on Europe. Hell, it's not even a bad source. Try the phonebook next time. Seriously, it'll give you at least as great insights into the situation, and it is quite a bit more reliable.

:sniper:Anti-Americanism is spread through the lies of the champagin socalists, and nannie states do gooders. America ideas for the purisuit of happiness is what makes America great. True, America is more conservative than the media want the public to belive, and yet its also more populist at the same time. The goverment foreign policy is blunder at times, but as a American still gotta support the for what the country stands for, and support the goverment. Most of the west and world there a shcizm between what the elites want and the masses. The average joe American or Brazilian, or German most days of the week are just scraping by making a living, and helping the local family, and community out. Happiness of the people should be goverment policy instead of divide, conquer, lie about things....
...
...RIGHT!..?

the country who tried to take over the whole earth and murdered 5 million people

When I read this, my first thought was "United States".

Anti-Americanism is spread through the lies of the champagin socalists, and nannie states do gooders. America ideas for the purisuit of happiness is what makes America great. True, America is more conservative than the media want the public to belive, and yet its also more populist at the same time. The goverment foreign policy is blunder at times, but as a American still gotta support the for what the country stands for, and support the goverment. Most of the west and world there a shcizm between what the elites want and the masses. The average joe American or Brazilian, or German most days of the week are just scraping by making a living, and helping the local family, and community out. Happiness of the people should be goverment policy instead of divide, conquer, lie about things.

It's rare that there's actually a post that I truly can't understand, but this is among them.

Why? do you not see the chaos around you? are you wearing blinders? or are you afraid? "You can please some of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time" I am sure you have heard that quote. Why is it that Europians worry about who they offend at the sake of their safety? Soon you will see the errror of defending the people who want you dead and will beg the USA to come help you yet again.

I'm new to the forums, but I decided to read this topic just to see what the Yanks would say. I'm Canadian, that being said, The Students being asked to defend what your county has done or is doing is totaly fair. They are more understanding of your Govermant thatn most Amaericans ever will be. I know that Canada has it's own issues, but we are not so arragant that we think Canada is -100 all the time, we live in Igloo's, and out Prime Minister (A Conservative Wanna be Texan) knows Canada and Mexico do not border eachother. In school we learn abouyt world history for mosty of out school lives. Canadaian history comes second and is usually an elective to take. I may not agree with MY Prime Minister, but he is MY Prime Minister. If someone asked me about "What the Hell are you Canuck's doing." I'll take it as an oppertunity to learn about another rich culture and how we can better learn to tolerate one antoher.

I can't believe that the country who tried to take over the whole earth and murdered 5 million people because of their religion/race have the right to judge anyone about politics. NAZI's remember them europe? Islamic Facists are the same thing. Your continent is being invaded, for christs sake they burned Paris and murder film makers. They riot and call for the death of an author because he is knighted and all he did was writ a fiction book that they thought insulted them. WAKE UP quit with the insane political correctness crap and call a spade a spade and don't worry who you offend because they offend tons of people with public stonings of teenagers and car bombs.:sniper:

I think this is a Godwin.

I declare a death warrant for this thread.

Sorry if it sounds like a rant and foor the poor spelling. I'm enjoying a few Canadian past-times right now.;)

I am truly sorry if this has already been said but, at least here in Sweden it is not unheard of to debate subjects just for the sake of debating (no matter wether you actualy agree with what you are saying), maybe the thing call also be said for some part of German culture, I don't know and thus leading to germans bringing up subjects that they belive the americans can easily relate to.

P.S. Excuse any and all grammatical errors.

If the Republicans were to lose the next election and the successor were to pull out of Iraq and give up on the "change the world" doctrine, maybe contribute a bit more to the global campaign against climate change...how much do you think that would change things?

They should simply ask in return why their grandparents voted for the Nazis...

Their inflated egos were worth 50 million dead?
I bet they berate Jews about Israel too.

But funny thing is I bet they DO NOT criticize Chinese for the actions of their government or Russians for killing a British resident with a radioactive poison.

Oh, no, its better to scream at the spectre of the CIA-run world dominating AmeriKKKa!

Its a bit rich, really. Most of Saddams WMD equipment came from West Germany and France. If they hadn't sold the technology to Iraq there would have been no casue for war, and no dead Iranians or Kurds when Saddam used that equipment to make chemical agents.

The last time I checked, changing the world by introducing democracy is a good thing.
I dont want the present regimes in Russia or China in any dominant position on the world stage...
Europe will soon be impotent due to its energy dependence on Russia.

And what sort of naive retard believes that China or any other police state gives a rats ass about the environment?
Are you actually serious?

The "environment" is the 21st century equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition or the witchhunts of old.

I can't believe that the country who tried to take over the whole earth and murdered 5 million people because of their religion/race have the right to judge anyone about politics. NAZI's remember them europe? Islamic Facists are the same thing. Your continent is being invaded, for christs sake they burned Paris and murder film makers. They riot and call for the death of an author because he is knighted and all he did was writ a fiction book that they thought insulted them. WAKE UP quit with the insane political correctness crap and call a spade a spade and don't worry who you offend because they offend tons of people with public stonings of teenagers and car bombs.:sniper:

Excuse my possible dubblepost

Ah but then also take into acount that the US has slaughtered thousands of native americans, forced them from their native grounds, their Holy Lands, (Mt. Rushmore *spelling?* is a desecration of a tribes if not holiest, then one of, places and stands as en eternal insult to them) tricked them, betrayed them, forced them to abandon their belives in favor for the "true christian belive" and allways, and maybe still(?) I don't know, treats them as second class citicens.

Yes and I could say that for centuries the English raped my country but I don't fly airliners into their buildings nowadays.
Practically every country on the planet has had this type of thing happen in their past. Only the fanatics still use it as an excuse to fuel ethnic and religious tensions.
Anti-Americanism is one more indicator that the left has failed to learn anything from history: hatred leads to violence.
Plus, jealousy is a bitch. Americans have a relatively insulated and protected. Most Europeans (this leftist, younger generation who didnt live under the shadow of the Iron Curtain) loathe the fact that the US saved them from Nazism and then Communism.

Who are the Americans to tell Europe what to do?

Wake up. You are digging yourself a hole with your double-standards and contradictions.
The "West" is the only place you'll find where people like you have the choice to criticize what you disagree with, even if your arguments are pathetically flawed.

So-called liberals will negotiate with the hangman for a silk rope and actually consider it a victory ;)

Yes and I could say that for centuries the English raped my country but I don't fly airliners into their buildings nowadays.
Practically every country on the planet has had this type of thing happen in their past. Only the fanatics still use it as an excuse to fuel ethnic and religious tensions.
Anti-Americanism is one more indicator that the left has failed to learn anything from history: hatred leads to violence.
Plus, jealousy is a bitch. Americans have a relatively insulated and protected. Most Europeans (this leftist, younger generation who didnt live under the shadow of the Iron Curtain) loathe the fact that the US saved them from Nazism and then Communism.

Who are the Americans to tell Europe what to do?

Wake up. You are digging yourself a hole with your double-standards and contradictions.
The "West" is the only place you'll find where people like you have the choice to criticize what you disagree with, even if your arguments are pathetically flawed.

So-called liberals will negotiate with the hangman for a silk rope and actually consider it a victory ;)

here in Sweden it is not unheard of to debate subjects just for the sake of debating (no matter wether you actualy agree with what you are saying)I'm sorry,but that just seems too fantastical to be true. Therefore I have to call you a liar.

P.S. Excuse any and all grammatical errors.
No chance. You will be brutally ridiculed.

But funny thing is I bet they DO NOT criticize Chinese for the actions of their government or Russians for killing a British resident with a radioactive poison.

Oh, no, its better to scream at the spectre of the CIA-run world dominating AmeriKKKa!

Hm, Germans criticize also China and Russia. But - maybe it sounds cynical - we don't expect any other from these countries, but from US we do.

PS: I know, my grammar sucks, but I neglect my English skills for my Latin studies. :)

Meh. Millions dies when we left Viet Nam.when we left?

People stops dieing when the Wars are over.. dont they?

Hm, Germans criticize also China and Russia. But - maybe it sounds cynical - we don't expect any other from these countries, but from US we do.

PS: I know, my grammar sucks, but I neglect my English skills for my Latin studies. :)

Well, you're right, so screw the grammar. ;)

Also, I haven't seen China or Russia running out proclaiming leadership of the free world on basis of supreme ideals of liberty and democracy and whatnot lately.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,496731,00.html


If the Republicans were to lose the next election and the successor were to pull out of Iraq and give up on the "change the world" doctrine, maybe contribute a bit more to the global campaign against climate change...how much do you think that would change things?

And while we're at it, let's just raise the tax rate to, oh, say, 68%, and then we can give lots more money to those savants over in the far east who built their homes where a Tsunami could wash them away! In the meantime, we'll give billions upon billions in private charities and be called stingy, and no one will lift a damn finger to help when one of OUR stupid historical cities gets washed half into the Gulf of Gorram Mexico.

:eek: * ------ :sniper:

Global Warming cannot be caused by human behavior, shy of nuclear Holocaust, and throwing money at it is just going to impede commerce, raise the price of gasoline, and generally 'equalize' the US with the rest of the world.

In case you're not paying attention, that'd be a bad thing.

Anti-Americanism is one more indicator that the left has failed to learn anything from history: hatred leads to violence.
Ah, yes, recognizing that the US government has done a spectacularly abysmal job those last 6 years is hatred. And of course that's why all the European lefties are infiltrating America as we speak to throw bombs at, uh, Americans. *nods*

Also, I haven't seen China or Russia running out proclaiming leadership of the free world on basis of supreme ideals of liberty and democracy and whatnot lately.
That's because you start selling freedom when you have ran out of other things to peddle. China and Russia still have goods to sell.

That's because you start selling freedom when you have ran out of other things to peddle. China and Russia still have goods to sell.

Thank you! Now I understand Mr. Schäuble much better! :sniper:

They should simply ask in return why their grandparents voted for the Nazis...

Their inflated egos were worth 50 million dead?
Oh dear, the further back I read, the more of these posts there are. o_O

So Americans voting for Bush today is the same thing as Germans voting for Hitler then?

Are you sure you wanted to say that?

Yes and I could say that for centuries the English raped my country but I don't fly airliners into their buildings nowadays.
Practically every country on the planet has had this type of thing happen in their past. Only the fanatics still use it as an excuse to fuel ethnic and religious tensions.
Anti-Americanism is one more indicator that the left has failed to learn anything from history: hatred leads to violence.
Plus, jealousy is a bitch. Americans have a relatively insulated and protected. Most Europeans (this leftist, younger generation who didnt live under the shadow of the Iron Curtain) loathe the fact that the US saved them from Nazism and then Communism.

Who are the Americans to tell Europe what to do?

Wake up. You are digging yourself a hole with your double-standards and contradictions.
The "West" is the only place you'll find where people like you have the choice to criticize what you disagree with, even if your arguments are pathetically flawed.

So-called liberals will negotiate with the hangman for a silk rope and actually consider it a victory ;)

I object to being labelled "leftist". I work hard at being a Thatcherite bastard, I'll thank you to acknowledge as much.;)

In any case, anti-americanism is fuelled as much by jealousy as by any ideological objection to US policy. As much as the majority of the post-colonial European powers might protest, upon a fundamental level there remains an objection to the power of the USA to do as it pleases.

Oh dear, the further back I read, the more of these posts there are. o_O

So Americans voting for Bush today is the same thing as Germans voting for Hitler then?

Are you sure you wanted to say that?

Not valid at all.

Germany was reeling from the double bitchslap of the Treaty of Versailles and the Great Depression, and Hitler promised to pull the nation up out of that cesspool and restore pride to the Fatherland. And he did just that. Nobody had any idea of his imperialistic ambitions early on, and as long as the good times kept coming they really didn't care.

On the other hand, it was no secret that Beloved Dear Leader was a coke-snorting alcoholic fratboy who had three business given to him by Daddy and managed to bankrupt them all. The Texas Rangers (the baseball team) were especially shitty (which is hard to notice nowadays admittedly) under his ownership. Not to mention post-Clinton we were looking towards a nice budget surplus. Which Dubya of course miraculously transforms into a deficit upon his term in office. I even dare say 9-11 was his Powerball Lottery number coming up, otherwise people would have seen then what most of us see now; that he's a dumbfuck surrounded by brilliant assholes keeping him in office for their own gains.

Nope, it's not a valid comparison. Hitler was the Nothing Left to Lose option who actually pulled Germany out from the double testicle kick it was experiencing into some prosperity and renewal in that Era. Dubya was quite the opposite in effect.

Not valid at all.

Germany was reeling from the double bitchslap of the Treaty of Versailles and the Great Depression, and Hitler promised to pull the nation up out of that cesspool and restore pride to the Fatherland. And he did just that. Nobody had any idea of his imperialistic ambitions early on, and as long as the good times kept coming they really didn't care.

On the other hand, it was no secret that Beloved Dear Leader was a coke-snorting alcoholic fratboy who had three business given to him by Daddy and managed to bankrupt them all. The Texas Rangers (the baseball team) were especially shitty (which is hard to notice nowadays admittedly) under his ownership. Not to mention post-Clinton were were looking towards a nice budget surplus. Which Dubya of course miraculously transforms into a deficit upon his term in office. I even dare say 9-11 was his Powerball Lottery number coming up, otherwise people would have seen then what most of us see now; that he's a dumbfuck surrounded by brilliant assholes keeping him in office for their own gains.

Nope, it's not a valid comparison. Hitler was the Nothing Left to Lose option who actually pulled Germany out from the double testicle kick it was experiencing into some prosperity and renewal in that Era. Dubya was quite the opposite in effect.
LOL
Cute. I like.

And now, because some people seem fairly angry, for some attempted comic relief in this thread...
An explanation for why US foreign policy is the way it is!
http://www.idrewthis.org/comics/idt20070524-2lw9.gif
:D

Yes, I really just wanted a vague excuse to post that.

Hitler was never elected, to be fair. Hindenburg offered him the chancellorship, ironically at the beginning of an economic recovery, and a fall in Nazi support, so as to bolster his administration against the left.

Of course, neither was Bush....:D

37.4% can be a win in the German election system, if no other party has more. Even during the Weimar Republic the system was aimed towards coalition governments.

Not valid at all.

Germany was reeling from the double bitchslap of the Treaty of Versailles and the Great Depression, and Hitler promised to pull the nation up out of that cesspool and restore pride to the Fatherland. And he did just that. Nobody had any idea of his imperialistic ambitions early on, and as long as the good times kept coming they really didn't care.

On the other hand, it was no secret that Beloved Dear Leader was a coke-snorting alcoholic fratboy who had three business given to him by Daddy and managed to bankrupt them all. The Texas Rangers (the baseball team) were especially shitty (which is hard to notice nowadays admittedly) under his ownership. Not to mention post-Clinton we were looking towards a nice budget surplus. Which Dubya of course miraculously transforms into a deficit upon his term in office. I even dare say 9-11 was his Powerball Lottery number coming up, otherwise people would have seen then what most of us see now; that he's a dumbfuck surrounded by brilliant assholes keeping him in office for their own gains.

Nope, it's not a valid comparison. Hitler was the Nothing Left to Lose option who actually pulled Germany out from the double testicle kick it was experiencing into some prosperity and renewal in that Era. Dubya was quite the opposite in effect.

Hitler was never elected, to be fair. Hindenburg offered him the chancellorship, ironically at the beginning of an economic recovery, and a fall in Nazi support, so as to bolster his administration against the left.

Of course, neither was Bush....:D

37.4% can be a win in the German election system, if no other party has more. Even during the Weimar Republic the system was aimed towards coalition governments.

Hitle never possessed the requiste majority to elect himself Chancellor, and, in any case, given that it was the extreme policies of the Nazi's that so distinguished them from their counterparts, a coalition would have been an unlikely but for Hindenburg's intervention.

Hitle never possessed the requiste majority to elect himself Chancellor, and, in any case, given that it was the extreme policies of the Nazi's that so distinguished them from their counterparts, a coalition would have been an unlikely but for Hindenburg's intervention.

Chancellors are never elected, they are always appointed by the president. That's still the case today. It's a mere formality, however, as the president can only appoint the candidate of the party with the majority of the votes (not the absolute majority, mind, just the majority). And coalitions in the Weimar republic were always a diplomat's nightmare, they disintegrated faster than they were formed. Hitler ruled by emergency decrees for the first few years.

Insults is what this turns to? Why is that? probably because you know what is say is truth. it actually bums me out that the great educated continent of Europe can only insult and not stay on topic.

I'm not even European. ;) You just appear to have Old Glory jammed up your ass.

Eh a large chunk of the world is anti-American so this isn't anything new. They're all anti-American until they want or need something from us, then they could kiss our feet and once we're done giving them what they want/need they just go right back to it. It's an endless cycle of usery.

Oh yes, I'm sure they're all extremely grateful for four decades of repressive US-backed dictatorships running their country...

I'm sure that starving under Kim Il Song is so much better.

And now, because some people seem fairly angry, for some attempted comic relief in this thread...
An explanation for why US foreign policy is the way it is!
http://www.idrewthis.org/comics/idt20070524-2lw9.gif
:D

Yes, I really just wanted a vague excuse to post that.

Beautiful!

I think that...hic... sums up things nicely.

So why don't us yanks have some smoke and you Euros have a beer or two and we'll meet in the middle and be friends again: intoxicated against the world!

The Russians can come too. Just don't invite the Muslims- no sense of humor that bunch.

I'm sure that starving under Kim Il Song is so much better.

The rescue of South Korea was a United Nations effort. The United States just happened to be one of the major contributors. Please, another thing that irritates the world is when Americans act like their nation alone dives into these messes and bails everyone out like Superman.

Who watched your asses during the Cold War so you didn't get swalloped up by the USSR?
Britain and France. Amazingly enough, countries besides the Soviet Union and the U.S. had nuclear weapons.

Who rebuilt Europe up after WWII?
The U.S., the Soviets, and all of Europe.

Who practically saved the entire damn world from collapsing under Hitler and Japan?
The USSR bears most of the credit for defeating Germany. The U.S. managed to defeat Japan right before the Soviets arrived.

North Korea fired a nuclear weapon!
That was a conventional weapon. Kim Jong Il lied.

>>Britain and France. Amazingly enough, countries besides the Soviet Union and the U.S. had nuclear weapons.

Shall we give some credit to NATO?


>>The U.S., the Soviets, and all of Europe.

Look up the Marshall plan. It is often forgotten. OH- and the US left unless we were specifically invited to stay. The Soviet came to stay and had to bankrupt themselves into collapse before they gave up their gains in Europe.


>>The USSR bears most of the credit for defeating Germany. The U.S. managed to defeat Japan right before the Soviets arrived.

The USSR fought the largest land war in history against the Germans. What is forgotten is that in the dark days of 41 and 42 the USSR was on the ropes and being kept on life support by American lend-lease aid. Thousands of Tanks and aircraft were sent to the Soviets. [Aircobra and Sherman] Although the Sherman wasn't the worlds best tank, it was a lot better than nothing. It gave the Russians time to retool and get the factories that they moved to the far East up and running.

The US role in the war was to apply overpowering air and naval forces and tip the balances of ground forces in favor or the allies in Western Europe. After June 1942, Japan was neutered and beaten more or less by attrition.

All of the allies had their roles in the eventual defeat of Germany- discounting any of them is simply sophistry.

>>That was a conventional weapon. Kim Jong Il lied.

Imagine that. :rolleyes: Man hung like grasshopper overcompensates. :p

Shall we give some credit to NATO?
Precisely. It was a combination...if it hadn't been for the Bundeswehr, the Soviets would have been able to take most of the battlefields before the US could react. If it hadn't been for Britain and France, frontline support would have taken too long. And if it hadn't been for the US, European forces couldn't have hoped to hold out longer than a few weeks. Not to mention the whole nuclear thing.

but should Iraq erupt into a civil war even after we pull out... add a decade for every year it goes on.

even if we pull out today and iraq erupts into a civil war most Americans wont know/care about it. as the news will then be all about Paris Hilton being caught given a blow job to Micheal Jackson.

I love America. No matter what it has done or what it might be doing, I still love it no matter what the stupid leaders of it do. I'm a fighting man, I come from a long line of Marines since WWI. And I will gladly die for my country to see it remain. It makes me sad to see all of these people come together to try to make us Americans look like barbarians and helpless idiots when in fact, we are the exact oppisote. Yes, we have several bad apples that make us look bad; the KKK, the Bush Administration, gun nuts who live in remote places of America and speak of anarchy, etc. But so does every other free country. The majority of Americans can not have an effect upon what the US Government does, we can't vote out a President once we become angered with him or the polls go down as they can in Britain. I just can't wait for next Spring when we do pull out of Iraq.

However, what would you do if there was never an America? What would you do if there had been no one to stop the Nazis or the militiristic Japanese in the 30's and 40's? All in all, America is the Big Brother of the world. You might hate us once we do something that makes you and some of us angry, but if we see anyone hurting you, we'll help when we can. We are the Land of the Free, however Freedoms must be sacrificed for security. A balance must be found. Napolean did the same for France during the Napoleanic Wars. If it had not been for our example, French Nationalism and Freedom could possibly not even exist in France.

We are the only remaining superpower in the world, but would you rather it be the USSR?

And I apologise for my last post in this thread to anyone insulted by it. I was emotional. I've seen some of my best buddies in Iraq killed and to hear you guys say that anyone supporting the war is evil offended me.

All in all, America is the Big Brother of the world.
How about you stick to being a big brother to your little siblings?

The USA is a country, meaning it's a piece of land in which an internationally recognised government holds the monopoly on violence. That's it.

You can talk about the idea that started America, but then you'd have to abandon any pretext of the modern US being the actual America. I reckon it should be compulsory for every government employee (including politicians and soldiers) to read up on Ben Franklin. He was the only guy who makes me think there once was something to American exceptionalism.

The USA is a country, meaning it's a piece of land in which an internationally recognised government holds the monopoly on violence. That's it.



LMAO

thats one hell of a quote. might as well read "America is evil and is the root to all things wrong with the world"

and this si coming from someone from Australia.

LMAO

thats one hell of a quote. might as well read "America is evil and is the root to all things wrong with the world"

and this si coming from someone from Australia.It's the definition of a sovereign state. It's not particular to the US.