NationStates Jolt Archive

So, do you think that the counter-culture movement in the 60s and 70s in the US had a positive or negative influence on the country? Poll coming.

It had an overwhelmingly positive effect. I hope there's another one soon.

The ideas of it were good - loosen up, take care of the Earth and each other, don't blow the shit out of people for no good reason. The expressions were not always on the up-and-up (LSD is some scary shit, if you ask me) but the counter-culture we most associate with the 60s and 70s had some good ideas.

What Freedom, no liberal hash hippies destroyed America? I am disappointed.

The hippie movement evolved into the rave and freeparty movements, and allowed the birth of Tribe and Goa Trance. I am infinitely grateful to it.

What Freedom, no liberal hash hippies destroyed America? I am disappointed.

This is simply a poll; I am not going to infuse it with my personal opinions.

Had some good effects, but had some bad ones too

I think that its effects are overrated by people like you, and by people who loved the idea.

I think that people who claim that they were hippies who went to the Haight and tuned out are as numerous and mostly false as the Frenchmen who claim to have been active members of the French Resistance.

In other words, many claim to have done or belonged, but the reality is that it wasn't as many as you think, FNG.

It's been overhyped by movies, TV, books, etc.

As for its "effects", things like The Pill have had more effect.

Let's take an example of counterculture. "Free love".

Well, although more people were screwing, I doubt if most were really practicing "free love". Most people today want some sort of relationship - most don't let anyone have sex with them without any strings.

And where did this sexual freedom come from? The minds of hippies? Nope. From the pharmaceutical companies who developed the Pill.

The music of the era? Brought to you by independent small bands working alone? No. From the major record producers and record companies.

So you see, a lot of the "counter culture" that you bemoan and others trumpet are really products of capitalism, greed, profit, and our willingness to buy it all.

So, do you think that the counter-culture movement in the 60s and 70s in the US had a positive or negative influence on the country? Poll coming.
Over all, positive. Certainly not perfect, had drawbacks, but a net gain.

Big Pos: It ended the war. Without the counter culture selling the idea of peace we would still be in Nam. And I truly believe the only way out of Bushnam is to have the youth make enough noise to force the establishment to overlook their massive financial profits and worry about their political jobs.

Big Pos2: It brought new ideas (or really old Christian ideas) that the conservative movement at the time had forgotten (and today have totally reforgotten). Things like love of all mankind, respect for the earth, helping the poor, sick, homeless, starving, downtrodden. I remember the segregation days of the 50's, 60's (and the new segregation of today). I remember when there were hungry and homeless (wait, is this the 50's again?)

How come when those D--- communist hippies were running around the country is more Christian than when the "Christians?" have power?

So, do you think that the counter-culture movement in the 60s and 70s in the US had a positive or negative influence on the country? Poll coming.

The hippies were an example of one of the many struggles between the youth and the elders in history. I don't really see an substantial positive or negative results from the counter-culture movement for the country from a long-term historical perspective. It is a disappointment that they failed in their original goal to create a better society, as many of them lost sight of their objectives in their excessive self-indulgence and/or eventually rejected these principles outright and rejoined the society they once shunned as time waltzed by them.

Positive. It annoyed and annoys Conservatives and censurous old-folks, so it's all good fun, in my book.

Substance? When has any broad cultural movement had that? Maybe the early members of the group, but eventually it just becomes a charicature of itself.

And RO, there's nothing wrong with being on a major label, there's something wrong with being owned by your label, be it major or independant.

Nothing good the counter-culture did could make up for what they did to Vietnam.

It had the positive effect of creating the reaction that elected Nixon twice, made Carter a single-termer and elected Reagan twice. :p Really, the culture is mostly dead. The politics continue, of course, but that's nothing unique to the hippies. ;)

Nothing good the counter-culture did could make up for what they did to Vietnam.

What exactly did the counter-culture do to Vietnam, as far as I know the only Americans in Vietnam were those who bombed over a million civilians to death and imposed their own dictatorship in SV.

The withdrawal of the USA precipitated the Communist invasion and annexation of the authoritarian, but lesser of two evils in the south which precipitated the death of millions of Vietnamese due to Vietnamese Communism. All the hippies did was ensure the deaths of millions and enslavement of the Vietnamese people.

The withdrawal of the USA precipitated the Communist invasion and annexation of the authoritarian, but lesser of two evils in the south which precipitated the death of millions of Vietnamese due to Vietnamese Communism. All the hippies did was ensure the deaths of millions and enslavement of the Vietnamese people.

Vietnam is actually doing pretty well these under Communism, I admire the Vietnamese who were able to overcome all the powers of reaction who ammassed against them - the French colonialists, the Japanese imperialists, the US interventionists and their southern collaborators, Vietnam was united and it's people free from reactionism.

Nothing good the counter-culture did could make up for what they did to Vietnam.

Not a fan of hippies but in this case Vietnam was the catalyst that produced the counter-culture revolution. If Vietnam did not happen the so called CC revolution would not have taken form as it did.

The withdrawal of the USA precipitated the Communist invasion and annexation of the authoritarian, but lesser of two evils in the south which precipitated the death of millions of Vietnamese due to Vietnamese Communism. All the hippies did was ensure the deaths of millions and enslavement of the Vietnamese people.

True to a degree, however I ask you to travel and spend some time in Asia. The Asian mind does not work in the same thought process as the western mind does. They actually seem to me work better under a communist/capitalist hybrid that China and to a lesser degree Vietnam. If the southern Vietnamese were truly believed in their cause the two halves would still be divided today.

True to a degree, however I ask you to travel and spend some time in Asia. The Asian mind does not work in the same thought process as the western mind does. They actually seem to me work better under a communist/capitalist hybrid that China and to a lesser degree Vietnam.

That's a load of crap. South Korea, Japan, and the Republic of China are far better off than Communist China and Vietnam. The belief that Asians are too primitive to live in a capitalist liberal democracy is utter racist bullshit.

That's a load of hokey. South Korea, Japan, the Republic of China, Hong Kong, and Macau are far better off than Communist Chinese and Vietnam.

Japan does not think like the mainland Asians.
Go to Hong Kong and take a look around. I have been there after the communist took over. Most of the Chinese there are happy with things. I have asked around while I was there. I figured they would be loathing the mainland Chinese. I was surprised by how they have adapted.
Taiwan cannot be compared to mainland China. They have a competing interest against one another.
Macau is far better off then when the Portuguese ran that place. It was crime ridden until the Chinese took possession again.
South Korea is another case in which they are more like the Japanese then their Chinese counterparts.
I also want to add that I do not like Communism but it seems to work out for them.

That's a load of crap. South Korea, Japan, and the Republic of China are far better off than Communist China and Vietnam. The belief that Asians are too primitive to live in a capitalist liberal democracy is utter racist bullshit.

Since you changed your response I will comment to this one too. Did I say that the Asians were to primitive? Not at all do I think that. I said the way they think is more acceptable to the Communist/Capitalist hybrid that now exists. That in no way implies that they are inferior. I also love how people throw around racist on these forums.

Japan does not think like the mainland Asians. Go to Hong Kong and take a look around. I have been there after the communist took over. Most of the Chinese there are happy with things. I have asked around while I was there. I figured they would be loathing the mainland Chinese. I was surprised by how they have adapted. Taiwan cannot be compared to mainland China. They have a competing interest against one another. Macau is far better off then when the Portuguese ran that place. It was crime ridden until the Chinese took possession again. South Korea is another case in which they are more like the Japanese then their Chinese counterparts. I also want to add that I do not like Communism but it seems to work out for them.

Communism has never worked for anyone. End of story. The death of one hundred million Chinese is not fucking working. Saying the Republic of China cannot be compared to the mainland is bullshit, you're talking as if they're from different planets. And to say that the Japanese don't think like the rest of Asia is bullshit. Where the hell do you think the Japanese come from? First you say they're not like mainland Asians and than you say the Koreans are like the Japanese. People were saying the same damn thing about the Japanese. Japan has been autocratic for thousands of years before it became a democracy. Do you even know ANYTHING about Hong Kong? Outside of foreign policy and defence, the PRC does not control Hong Kong. Hong Kong is still as democratic as it was under Britain. That's just crap. Everything you just said is retarded bullshit. My entire family including myself comes from Asia, not to mention hundreds of other people I know. Not a single person admits that China is better off than Japan and not a single one believes Communism is better than democracy, including myself. Saying that China and Vietnam are inclined toward despotism compared to the rest of Asia is a piece of crap.

So, do you think that the counter-culture movement in the 60s and 70s in the US had a positive or negative influence on the country? Poll coming.

Can't we just get over the counter culture? That would have a positive effect on me.

I have to agree, different cultures and peoples are always partial to different policies, I don't think it's a mistake how incredibly popular the communist movement became in China at the time of the civil war, I actually recently watched a documentary which put together a case that the Chinese throughout history has always been a 'Community above individual' society.

Communism has never worked for anyone. End of story. The death of one hundred million Chinese is not fucking working. Saying the Republic of China cannot be compared to the mainland is bullshit, you're talking as if they're from different planets. And to say that the Japanese don't think like the rest of Asia is bullshit. Where the hell do you think the Japanese come from? First you say they're not like mainland Asians and than you say the Koreans are like the Japanese. People were saying the same damn thing about the Japanese. Japan has been autocratic for thousands of years before it became a democracy. Do you even know ANYTHING about Hong Kong? Outside of foreign policy and defence, the PRC does not control Hong Kong. Hong Kong is still as democratic as it was under Britain. That's just crap. Everything you just said is retarded bullshit. My entire family including myself comes from Asia, not to mention hundreds of other people I know. Not a single person admits that China is better off than Japan and not a single one believes Communism is better than democracy, including myself.


Getting a little bent and I don't have the time tonight to counter everything you just mentioned. I have been to Hong Kong on personal business and to Korea and Japan with the military. I have talked with many people over there and had many a political discussions. Can tell you that the Asian mind does not think like their western counterpart. Can also tell you that Hong Kong is not a democracy. Look up some recent history of Hong Kong "elections". You will quickly learn that the PRC does control Hong Kong. Who is retarded here?
Also just because you come from "Asia" doesn't make you the end all expert of the area. Also do not keep putting words in my mouth. I never said Communism is better then Democracy. I said it seems to work for them under it's current hybrid. As for Japan being different then the rest of Asia. Try reading up on human migration and geneological differences in Asia.

I have to agree, different cultures and peoples are always partial to different policies, I don't think it's a mistake how incredibly popular the communist movement became in China at the time of the civil war, I actually recently watched a documentary which put together a case that the Chinese throughout history has always been a 'Community above individual' society.

Same with Japan, Korea, and Taiwan (which is effectively almost identical to the mainland in terms of culture). Japan was extremely focused on Community above Individuals? Does everyone forget their antics in World War II? Liberal democracy can fit any culture, no matter what. Japan shows us this far better. Japan was even more despotic and authoritarian leaning than China was, and look at it today! Liberal Democracy is always superior to Communist Totalitarianism no matter what circumstances. Just because the CPC says communism fits China better than freedom doesn't make it right.

Getting a little bent and I don't have the time tonight to counter everything you just mentioned. I have been to Hong Kong on personal business and to Korea and Japan with the military. I have talked with many people over there and had many a political discussions. Can tell you that the Asian mind does not think like their western counterpart. Can also tell you that Hong Kong is not a democracy. Look up some recent history of Hong Kong "elections". You will quickly learn that the PRC does control Hong Kong. Who is retarded here?
Also just because you come from "Asia" doesn't make you the end all expert of the area. Also do not keep putting words in my mouth. I never said Communism is better then Democracy. I said it seems to work for them under it's current hybrid. As for Japan being different then the rest of Asia. Try reading up on human migration and geneological differences in Asia.

Of course the Asian Mind doesn't think like the Western mind, but that doesn't mean its inclined toward despotism. The Republic of China and the People's Republic of China are almost identical. One of them went through Communism, the other didn't. Communism DOESN'T work for China. And saying that Japan is different from the rest of Asia IS false. Genealogical differences are irrelevant. Korean, Japanese, and Chinese culture have influenced each other and highly similar to each other. Just because you've visited Japan and Korea once doesn't make you an all-end expert. You've got even worse credentials than me. Hong Kong still, for the most part, enjoys more freedom than the rest of China (excluding the Republic of China). Geneological differences should be irrelevant unless you're suggesting that different groups are racially predisposed toward despotism....

And you're not countering me simply because you're spewing shit out of your mouth.

Same with Japan, Korea, and Taiwan (which is effectively almost identical to the mainland in terms of culture). Japan was extremely focused on Community above Individuals? Does everyone forget their antics in World War II? Liberal democracy can fit any culture, no matter what. Japan shows us this far better. Japan was even more despotic and authoritarian leaning than China was, and look at it today! Liberal Democracy is always superior to Communist Totalitarianism no matter what circumstances. Just because the CPC says communism fits China better than freedom doesn't make it right.

Communism is freedom and democracy by it's very nature.

Same with Japan, Korea, and Taiwan (which is effectively almost identical to the mainland in terms of culture). Japan was extremely focused on Community above Individuals? Does everyone forget their antics in World War II? Liberal democracy can fit any culture, no matter what. Japan shows us this far better. Japan was even more despotic and authoritarian leaning than China was, and look at it today! Liberal Democracy is always superior to Communist Totalitarianism no matter what circumstances. Just because the CPC says communism fits China better than freedom doesn't make it right.

Um... You do realize that the Japanese Democracy is... Well, to be kind, a bit of a sham. Sure, people go out and cast votes, but the Conservatives always win. It's not a functioning Democracy if one party always wins.

Since 1953 there has not been a majority government that was not held by the LDP. That is not a stable and functioning Democracy.

Same with Japan, Korea, and Taiwan (which is effectively almost identical to the mainland in terms of culture). Japan was extremely focused on Community above Individuals? Does everyone forget their antics in World War II? Liberal democracy can fit any culture, no matter what. Japan shows us this far better. Japan was even more despotic and authoritarian leaning than China was, and look at it today! Liberal Democracy is always superior to Communist Totalitarianism no matter what circumstances. Just because the CPC says communism fits China better than freedom doesn't make it right.

Actually, I take issue with your presentation of Liberal Democracy as the be all and end all of political perfection. It's not bad, but it sure ain't good either.

To paraphrase Terry Pratchett: "A thousand years ago, we knew the best method of government was monarchy. Five hundred years ago, we knew it was aristocracy*. Now, we know it is democracy. Who knows what it will be like tomorrow?"

*Not quite the right word.

I find hippy women rather attractive, strangely. I don't know why. So yay 60s!

Just because the people won't vote out the LDP doesn't mean anything. And why should they? The LDP has done an excellent job with Japan.

And liberal democracy isn't 100% perfect, but it's a hella lot better than anything else we've got now.

Communism is freedom and democracy by it's very nature.

Even if that is true, no Communist state has ever exercised those two traits. Except maybe the USSR in the last week of its existence, but the exercising of both of those traits lead to its peaceful dissolution...

Communism is freedom and democracy by it's very nature.
Fail.

Communism doesn't contain any inherent nature that requires it to be free. In addition, it's quite possible for democracy to result in a profound lack of freedom.

In its broadest definition, communism is a theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property.

From the perspective of the individual, there's no particular reason to assume that this will result in freedom.

The counter-culture made huge contibutions to society and the Liberal movement, which so so brutally crushed by a move-star president some years later... Sometimes I iwsh I were around to see it.. But then it wouldn't be as great as I though it was...

Just because the people won't vote out the LDP doesn't mean anything. And why should they? The LDP has done an excellent job with Japan.

And liberal democracy isn't 100% perfect, but it's a hella lot better than anything else we've got now.

One party states are not functioning Democracies. They may be functioning states, but they are not functioning Democratic states.

I wish I'd been around in the 60s and 70s to be a part of the whole thing.

What exactly did the hippies accomplish?

Positive, though I wasn't really there to witness it so I don't really know.

What exactly did the hippies accomplish?

They created a link in the cycle that led the next generation to think Reagan was Christ resurrected as a politician.

As with most things, it was mixed.

It was important in introducing a more socially tolerant atmosphere into mainstream American culture, which, at the time, was needed. Feminism, for instance, wrought many key improvements on American society as a whole, so much so that nowadays it's no shocker to find a couple where the guy is A&S, whilst the girl is an engineer. At the same time, though, the counter-culture proved to be an abject failure in many of its goals, and the amount of social dislocation it caused amongst certain segments of society was excessive. Furthermore, it's goals were poorly conceived, and it's methods poor. It was far, far too radical for the vast center of American politics, and was destined to failure because of that. While it forced a reevaluation of certain social norms, it did not force a reevaluation of society in general. Furthermore, the counter-culture managed to embrace activities that were so radical from the existing social norms that it rapidly became impossible for the center to identify with them. They rapidly alienated the center by being "too different" and "too offensive" to their center-of-the-road sensibilities. This revulsion spawned a conservative kickback, that essentially halted the counter-culture dead in its tracks.

It was a neither particularly good or bad. Merely somewhat balanced, and a failure.

Also, I firmly believe that there will never be another counter-culture. At least not for an extended period of time. Severe generational differences, changes in how youth spend their time, and the availability of shinier, more enjoyable distractions are the primary reasons I suspect this will happen.

Counterculture's two biggest long-term impacts are its cynical use in selling products (being a rebel through brand-name conformity, chewing an especially minty flavor of gum, getting an X-treme tatoo, etc.), and the abiding distaste in the Baby Boomer generation for paying taxes, however necessary those taxes might have been. Other people have made the link that Reagan defeated the counterculture. What has not yet been mentioned is the fact that the same people who were in the counterculture overwhelmingly voted for Reagan. Why? Because he was the guy who was saying the same things the counterculture was saying: the government's out to oppress you, take your money, and do evil things with it. The single consistent theme in both conservative and liberal politics of the period is don't trust the Man, even though after 1980 the Baby Boomers were the Man.

People tend to forget that in 1964, the consensus was that Barry Goldwater was a fracking loon. It's one thing to say now that criticism of the claim "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue" is leftist hippy-talk; but try saying the same thing after you've just gone through the Cuban Missile Crisis. The only people who listened to Goldwater were nuts, because the vox populi realized that you couldn't strip down the expenditures of the federal government without a) ending the Cold War prematurely, or b) consigning black people to their position in the "good ol' days", neither of which was generally acceptable. It only became acceptable because the counterculture established systematic disapproval in the government doing anything. So in a way, the counterculture and evil hippydom established our current incompetent regime.

Communism is freedom and democracy by it's very nature.

Not in practice.

Yeah, it was good. But the vast overwhelming majority of hippy's were complete and utter idiots.

Some key facts about the counter-culture:
It started before the nineteen-sixties with artists, musicians, and people tired of the conformity that ruled pretty much the post-war era. Artists painet on walls and floors instead of painting on canvass and carving marble. Musicians experimented with a new form of music called "Rock and roll".

The ideas were good. love, happiness, and freedom. Some were bad. Drugs ruin your body and mind. Blinds you to the world around you. Free sex is also bad. Human beings are a social species that often mates for life. Sex has such an affect on hormones that human beings need to get more from sex than just joy. People are not reptiles, fish, of bugs. Most men don't just fuck a woman and abandon her while looking for another woman to fuck. It goes against nature. The Pill also kinda goes against the main purpose of sex (reproduction), but the world had enough starving people and we sure as hell don't need more.

Drugs ruin your body and mind. Blinds you to the world around you.

On the contrary, drugs enhance your experience of the world around you in a powerful and highly spiritual way.

Free sex is also bad...It goes against nature.

I see nothing wrong with promiscuity if it fits within a social context.

the main purpose of sex (reproduction)

Really? I think the main purpose of sex is as a form of free expression.

I see nothing wrong with promiscuity if it fits within a social context.

Indeed.


Really? I think the main purpose of sex is as a form of free expression.

Pur...pose? In what way at all does sex have a "purpose?" I mean, from an evolutionary perspective, sure, he actually is right, but... purpose implies that it was created for a reason or something? Sex is just something that feels good and can, under certain conditions, cause pregnancy.

Unsure. Considering even my parents weren't young at that time I can't really say I know enough about what went on then to judge the effects it had on society. I can't buy into the hype too easily because there's a lot of nostalgia, with people looking at the past with rose-tinted specs.