NationStates Jolt Archive

Why is our perception of groups is often radically at odds with our relationships with individual members of groups? If we use the random example of the white underclass in Britain, it is possible for members of socio-economically superior groups to maintain good relationships with individual members of this group whilst seemingly paradoxically espousing a deep contempt for the group as a whole. This is especially true in areas where there is a general cross-over of social castes, and mixing of these castes through shared common utilities, such as schools, transportation and commercial outlets.

The solution to this paradox lies in understanding the difference between interpersonal relationships and group relationships. An encounter with a member of the underclass in Asda is an encounter with an individual on neutral territory with both parties in pursuit of a shared common objective. Even if the chav is shoplifting and the non-chav is looking for aisle-end bargains, the essential objective for both parties is to procure cheap food and booze.

Aside from some elbowing in the bacon isle, it is unlikely that an inter-group conflict situation will arise in such a situation. Any incidental inter-group banter in this specific situation is likely to devolve around the shared problem of finding where the fuck the shop management have hidden the frozen pizzas this week, or why your trolley (that's "shopping cart" for you American types) veered hard left in the car park.

The misunderstanding of inter-group relationships is essentially a failure to grasp the fact that these relationships are situationally specific. The benevolent regard that the chav has for the lower middle–class dad struggling to control two kids and a shopping trolley with a wonky wheel is not extended to a situation in which said parent is walking through the same underclass person’s home "turf" late at night. In the latter situation the middle-class person is likely to be viewed as, at best, an unwelcome interloper, and, at worst, a legitimate and potentially profitable target for criminal predation. In an almost exact parallel a couple of chavs strolling through the middle-income suburbs will be viewed at least with suspicion and generally as potential criminals.

To at least some extent both reactions are justifiable; for the average chav middle-class people do belong to a group that enjoys seemingly unfair social and economic advantages over members of their caste, and the perception of the homeowner that his house is most likely to be burgled by a member of the estate dwelling underclass is validated by crime statistics.

The deception deployed by the Brotherhood Of Universal Liberalism is to highlight a specific, neutral interpersonal interaction and present it as a non-specific constant that obviates claims of significant and sometimes pernicious divergence between social groups. This phenomenon is summed up by the “Hey! I know these kids; I understand them!” attitude, common among the hard left back in the seventies, a phrase that should be translated as, “I interact with these kids in a set of highly contrived circumstances and am making a claim of superior knowledge to validate my demand for more authority and status”.

Chavs don't go to Asda. They get their food from McDonalds and their drink from the pub.

tl;dr

You seem to have leaned on the keyboard.

tl;dr

People are stupid. Persons not necessarily. Mob psychology and all that junk.

Believe it or not, I thought this was a rant generator :)

damn bogans

it's because people are idiots.

actually, i want to know where your Asda is. a whole aisle for bacon?? that's awesome!

and i have to say i've rarely felt benevolent towards anyone in a supermarket, or even spoken to a fellow shopper beyond consenting to reach stuff higher up for old people and kids. my usual attitude in the supermarket is one of "get the fuck out of my way, can't you see i hungry and tired".

Believe it or not, I thought this was a rant generator :)

damn bogans

i thought it was going to be about the relative creative inputs of different band members in the production of the music.

You seem to have leaned on the keyboard.

You seem to have leaned on a wall of some sort, possibly brick. No plant growth, but still not very new.

i.e. "too long; didn't read"

hehe i enjoyed that little read :)

apart from the last paragraph where i got bored and felt stupid at not knowing some of the fancy words :(

Why is our perception of groups is often radically at odds with our relationships with individual members of groups? If we use the random example of the white underclass in Britain, it is possible for members of socio-economically superior groups to maintain good relationships with individual members of this group whilst seemingly paradoxically espousing a deep contempt for the group as a whole. This is especially true in areas where there is a general cross-over of social castes, and mixing of these castes through shared common utilities, such as schools, transportation and commercial outlets.

The solution to this paradox lies in understanding the difference between interpersonal relationships and group relationships. An encounter with a member of the underclass in Asda is an encounter with an individual on neutral territory with both parties in pursuit of a shared common objective. Even if the chav is shoplifting and the non-chav is looking for aisle-end bargains, the essential objective for both parties is to procure cheap food and booze.

Aside from some elbowing in the bacon isle, it is unlikely that an inter-group conflict situation will arise in such a situation. Any incidental inter-group banter in this specific situation is likely to devolve around the shared problem of finding where the fuck the shop management have hidden the frozen pizzas this week, or why your trolley (that's "shopping cart" for you American types) veered hard left in the car park.

The misunderstanding of inter-group relationships is essentially a failure to grasp the fact that these relationships are situationally specific. The benevolent regard that the chav has for the lower middle–class dad struggling to control two kids and a shopping trolley with a wonky wheel is not extended to a situation in which said parent is walking through the same underclass person’s home "turf" late at night. In the latter situation the middle-class person is likely to be viewed as, at best, an unwelcome interloper, and, at worst, a legitimate and potentially profitable target for criminal predation. In an almost exact parallel a couple of chavs strolling through the middle-income suburbs will be viewed at least with suspicion and generally as potential criminals.

To at least some extent both reactions are justifiable; for the average chav middle-class people do belong to a group that enjoys seemingly unfair social and economic advantages over members of their caste, and the perception of the homeowner that his house is most likely to be burgled by a member of the estate dwelling underclass is validated by crime statistics.

The deception deployed by the Brotherhood Of Universal Liberalism is to highlight a specific, neutral interpersonal interaction and present it as a non-specific constant that obviates claims of significant and sometimes pernicious divergence between social groups. This phenomenon is summed up by the “Hey! I know these kids; I understand them!” attitude, common among the hard left back in the seventies, a phrase that should be translated as, “I interact with these kids in a set of highly contrived circumstances and am making a claim of superior knowledge to validate my demand for more authority and status”.

Ok.

But what sauce do you have with bacon rolls?

BROWN SAUCE FOREVER!
And I covet the Bacon Isle.

On topic: Didn't Charlie Brown once say almost the exact opposite, but in about six words?

Edit: Haha, I Timewarped Turquoise.

If you read carefully, its not just a whole aisle, but an entire isle! Even more awesome. :p

I demand to know where this isle is.

actually, i want to know where your Asda is. a whole aisle for bacon?? that's awesome!

If you read carefully, its not just a whole aisle, but an entire isle! Even more awesome. :p

Chavs are a minority of the working class and not representative of the working class as a whole, their "home turf" is also the home turf of reasonable people.

The reason why chavs dont attack non chavs in commercial outlets is because not only are they focused on acquiring goods, if they act out of order theres about a hundred people who could intervene, there is the problem of security and in public areas the police are not far away, so its not a good idea to attack someone.

Ive never seen anyone talking to people in commercial outlets. Although there are gradations of spending income the term social castes smacks of stereotyping and labeling, and implies that classes are set in stone, that one is defined by class. Its really pointless to put people into boxes.

That aside, its arguable that most violent incidents occur when a bunch of lads are drunk. And with the case of football hooliganism you'll find that there are a few people in respectable middle class occupations involved in violent behavior.

The concept of understanding should be a universal as common sense. If you understand a culture, what its motivations and origins are, as with the case of chav culture you can identify why its negative aspects exist rather than just clamping down on it excessively. Sure there are significant divergences but reactionary strategies as opposed to proactive ones are a waste of time and only satisfy a desire for collective personal vengeance.

Are you the old and true Lord Sauron?

Believe it or not, I thought this was a rant generator :)

Oh, pure rant, yeah. You'll note there's not even really a question being put to the board in there. I was just typing. ;)

i thought it was going to be about the relative creative inputs of different band members in the production of the music.

Heh.

Ok.

But what sauce do you have with bacon rolls?

HP. Brown. All the way.

If you read carefully, its not just a whole aisle, but an entire isle! Even more awesome. :p

"Bacon isle" is officially my favourite typo ever. I'd be a fool to edit it.

Are you the old and true Lord Sauron?

Heh, sure is Aliria (although I'm only 20!). How you doing? I'll have to get back on IRC some time.

Heh, sure is Aliria. How you doing? I'll have to get back on IRC some time.

Fine, fine!, happy to know you have come back. I hope to see you staying around for a bit.

Yay, you remember me! You were missed too.

it seems to me that there are 2 universal brotherhoods

the brotherhood of universal liberalism who understand that we are all the same underneath it all. they have "black friends" at work that they are very fond of.

and the brotherhood of universal conservatism who understand that we what we make ourselves so that the underclasses deserve the conditions they live in. they were once beat up on the playground by a couple of older black kids.

(im not british so no chavs)

they are both wrong.

it seems to me that there are 2 universal brotherhoods

the brotherhood of universal liberalism who understand that we are all the same underneath it all. they have "black friends" at work that they are very fond of.

and the brotherhood of universal conservatism who understand that we what we make ourselves so that the underclasses deserve the conditions they live in. they were once beat up on the playground by a couple of older black kids.

(im not british so no chavs)

they are both wrong.

Why are black people so important to your worldview? Come to that, how can these brotherhoods really be "universal" when they seem to exclude black people themselves altogether as a kind've external catalyst?

Why are black people so important to your worldview? Come to that, how can these brotherhoods really be "universal" when they seem to exclude black people themselves altogether as a kind've external catalyst?

because we dont have chavs in the US so i used our equivalent.

ask yourself the same questions about you and chavs.

I was never "beat up" by underclass whites, and I don't have underclass friends at work who I am fond of (being underclass rather than working class, they are mostly jobless parasites/criminals). So there goes your exceedingly crude psychology. Question answered.

As for there being no "chavs" in America, I'm pretty sure there's a substantial number of underclass whites living in America. I've seen Ricki Lake.

Why is our perception of groups is often radically at odds with our relationships with individual members of groups?

Amalgamation.

I was never "beat up" by underclass whites, and I don't have underclass friends at work who I am fond of (being underclass rather than working class, they are mostly jobless parasites/criminals). So there goes your exceedingly crude psychology. Question answered.

As for there being no "chavs" in America, I'm pretty sure there's a substantial number of underclass whites living in America. I've seen Ricki Lake.

MY exceedingly crude psychology? i was using YOUR model.

as i thought about this thread a few days ago, i was struck by realizing that i have never been automatically scared of any class of white person. sure, if someone has gone out of his way to look like he is a killer, i find him intimidating but being poor, poorly dressed, from a certain part of the country, (i cant honestly think of what might make me scared of a white person) doesnt concern me at all.

maybe its because i didnt grow up in the city where there might be dangerous white neighborhoods. then i might be able to identify by sight a person from such an area. *shrug*

so its strange to me that Y'all have this group of white people who inspire automatic fear and/or suspicion when you see them.

BROWN SAUCE FOREVER!
And I covet the Bacon Isle.

On topic: Didn't Charlie Brown once say almost the exact opposite, but in about six words?

Edit: Haha, I Timewarped Turquoise.

That has to be one of the coolest posts i've ever seen. It helps that i understand no context, since i didn't bother reading the OP.
Well, i tried, but my ferrets needed something and my mother inlaw was talking about drunk exbf's and dogs.

Yup

Hehe, Fallacy