O Canada...where police brutality is a national sport. [Archive]

Neesika

26-07-2007, 01:43

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsIBkRJGQEw#) is a link to a video of the story.

From the article (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070704.wbcpepper04/BNStory/National/home):

It began as a raucous, good-natured celebration of yet another tournament victory by a soccer-mad native band.

But when a young RCMP constable tried to intervene to enforce the law as he saw fit, all hell broke loose.

Surrounded by a crowd of increasingly angry natives, police responded with rounds of pepper spray, sending more than a dozen people to hospital for treatment, including several children - even a six-month-old baby.

Oh, I love how the band is called 'soccer mad' (you know, because soccer fans are hoodlums), and how the natives became increasinly angry and needed to be pepper sprayed.

Frankly, if you are terrified of being around the very people you are supposed to be policing? Then don't fucking work there. If you work in a community, you need to respect that community, and get to know it...especially as a police officer. How on earth can you do your job otherwise?

Don't let me make it seem as though this is just a problem among aboriginals. Far from it. Maybe the cops are just too scared period, to do their jobs properly. Even a scary teen who has been drinking is enough (http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Canada/2007/07/02/4307309.html) to frighten a cop into shooting him in the back of the head.

Ian Bush was arrested outside the Houston hockey arena in late October 2005 for having an open beer and giving false names to a rookie RCMP constable. Less than 30 minutes later the 22-year-old mill worker was dead. He’d been shot in the back of the head after the two were left alone in the police detachment.

And hey...oooh, scary Chilean soccer team (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/fifau20/story/2007/07/20/chile-police.html) trying to sign autographs for their fans...oh no, soccer hoodlums, better taser the fuck out of them...hey, welcome to Canada, eh?

Police prevented the players from reaching the large fence that separated them from their fans.

As pushing and shoving began, a Chilean official said police used pepper spray and a Taser gun to subdue the players and some other members of the nation's soccer delegation.

Hey, not to mention the RCMP's key involvment in shipping Maher Arar off to Syria to be tortured.

We pretend to uphold this reputation for a respect for civil liberties...oh no, we're not like the US, where police brutality is a given, no never that...yet here we are, inquiry after inquiry, incident after incident, living a lie. What the fuck is wrong with this country? Is it just too 'unCanadian' to reign these cops in?

Edit: the first link apparently wants you to buy the article, so hopefully this one (http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=f5df13be-64c5-46c6-883b-958018938964&k=51939) will work:

Shannon Phillips sat cradling her six-month-old stepson this afternoon, still shocked a member of the local RCMP had sprayed her and her baby in the face with pepper spray.

Aside from calming the coughing and breathing difficulties, doctors at St. Mary's Hospital in Sechelt had to freeze young Kayden Mayers' eyeballs to check for serious damage, she said.

"He was screeching," said Phillips, 37. "It got right on his scalp, he had streaks of red marks. "You're supposed to be able to rely on your RCMP. How can you do that when this kind of stuff happens?"

Fourteen people - six of them children - were hospitalized, with Kayden the youngest casualty, after a procession of some 20 vehicles from the Sechelt Nation on the Sunshine Coast celebrating the victory of two teams in a youth soccer tourney erupted into a pepper-spray battle with police at about 6 p.m. Monday.

Cop line is...Indians were hostile, had to spray 'em.

Kryozerkia

26-07-2007, 01:45

Yes, police can be assholes, even in Canada. It's not just for Americans any more. :p

Honestly. why are you surprised? The RCMP is a corrupt force like any other.

They could reign in the cops but that would be the "get tough on crime stance" adopted by the Conservatives would you know... NOT be put into practice because these cops couldn't act like unaccountable dickwads with guns.

Similization

26-07-2007, 01:48

At least they're not paying neo-Nazis to beat up gays, like they do in Europe.

Neesika

26-07-2007, 01:49

Yes, police can be assholes, even in Canada. It's not just for Americans any more. :p

Honestly. why are you surprised? The RCMP is a corrupt force like any other.

Not surprised, outraged. No, this is nothing new, but there's no reason to just go, 'piff, that's the way it is'.

It doesn't have to be that way, is the thing. And it's high fucking time it stopped being that way.

Most of the cases I hear about of police brutality never get reported. It's just standard operating procedure, ESPECIALLY on Reserves. Kick in the door, make children cower on the floor while cops with heavy arms stomp about, swearing, and threatening the adults in the house. Oh darn, no warrant? Well, we didn't find anything anyway, sorry about your broken door, have a nice day, ha ha.

More people need to give a shit. None of the inquiries that have happened in this country happened on their own power. People bitched enough to MAKE them happen. So now, they need to bitch to make sure that things go beyond just inquiries, and into the realm of real changes.

H N Fiddlebottoms VIII

26-07-2007, 01:51

Oh Dudley Do-Right, what have you let yourself become? Sure, the movie adaption was pretty hard for you, it was hard for everyone, but that is no reason to take it out on aboriginals.
At least not the photogenic ones.

Neesika

26-07-2007, 01:51

Yes, police can be assholes, even in Canada. It's not just for Americans any more. :p

And that's sort of my point. It never was just for people in the US. The RCMP were our 'intelligence service' until the 70s...used to spying on people, infiltrating trade unions, and shooting the fuck out of strikers. But there is this myth in Canada that our cops are better. It's never been true, and we should stop pretending it is.

Johnny B Goode

26-07-2007, 01:55

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsIBkRJGQEw#) is a link to a video of the story.

From the article (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070704.wbcpepper04/BNStory/National/home):

Oh, I love how the band is called 'soccer mad' (you know, because soccer fans are hoodlums), and how the natives became increasinly angry and needed to be pepper sprayed.

Frankly, if you are terrified of being around the very people you are supposed to be policing? Then don't fucking work there. If you work in a community, you need to respect that community, and get to know it...especially as a police officer. How on earth can you do your job otherwise?

Don't let me make it seem as though this is just a problem among aboriginals. Far from it. Maybe the cops are just too scared period, to do their jobs properly. Even a scary teen who has been drinking is enough (http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Canada/2007/07/02/4307309.html) to frighten a cop into shooting him in the back of the head.

And hey...oooh, scary Chilean soccer team (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/fifau20/story/2007/07/20/chile-police.html) trying to sign autographs for their fans...oh no, soccer hoodlums, better taser the fuck out of them...hey, welcome to Canada, eh?

Hey, not to mention the RCMP's key involvment in shipping Maher Arar off to Syria to be tortured.

We pretend to uphold this reputation for a respect for civil liberties...oh no, we're not like the US, where police brutality is a given, no never that...yet here we are, inquiry after inquiry, incident after incident, living a lie. What the fuck is wrong with this country? Is it just too 'unCanadian' to reign these cops in?

What the demotivator thinks of police brutality (http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9493/policemanposterqj2.jpg)

Similization

26-07-2007, 01:59

And that's sort of my point. It never was just for people in the US. The RCMP were our 'intelligence service' until the 70s...used to spying on people, infiltrating trade unions, and shooting the fuck out of strikers. But there is this myth in Canada that our cops are better. It's never been true, and we should stop pretending it is.It's a myth in most, probably all 1st world countries. I still have fond memories of dragging my beaten, bleeding ass home and have my flat mate accuse me of lying when I told him I'd been taken for a ride by 4 coppers.

And I still remember him loosing it completely and going to jail for assaulting an officer, when a copper sent his girl's teeth flying for no fucking reason a couple of weeks later, after a demonstration.

Way to have one's illusions shattered.

It's not going to help solve the problem though. You can't win against the state's PR machine as long as Joe Average isn't victimized. People need 1st hand experience to overcome the bullshit they've been fed all their lives, and they'll never have it. And you can't exactly blame them for not trying to prove you wrong. Sane people just don't put themselves in harms way if they have a choice.

Kryozerkia

26-07-2007, 02:01

Not surprised, outraged. No, this is nothing new, but there's no reason to just go, 'piff, that's the way it is'.

It doesn't have to be that way, is the thing. And it's high fucking time it stopped being that way.

Most of the cases I hear about of police brutality never get reported. It's just standard operating procedure, ESPECIALLY on Reserves. Kick in the door, make children cower on the floor while cops with heavy arms stomp about, swearing, and threatening the adults in the house. Oh darn, no warrant? Well, we didn't find anything anyway, sorry about your broken door, have a nice day, ha ha.

More people need to give a shit. None of the inquiries that have happened in this country happened on their own power. People bitched enough to MAKE them happen. So now, they need to bitch to make sure that things go beyond just inquiries, and into the realm of real changes.

But nothing will change until we have a government that focuses on rehabilitative procedures at all levels and crime prevention education. Police have too much power because the Conservatives can't think outside the box and with power comes corruption because those with power wield it to the extent a schoolyard bully does; they push and push.

People cry for solutions in Toronto; the politicians talk and nothing happens. We have inquiry after inquiry and every time there is an answer, the pro-gun Conservatives shoot it down because it doesn't suit their "tough on crime agenda". So police are given more power than they know what to do with and get away with murder because the assholes in power can't come up with anything beyond a one-size fits all zero-tolerance solution.

Police brutality is a sad reality but it won't go away until there is a board that the civilians can report to that is completely and utterly independent of the police force. They say there is one but it doesn't exist to meet the needs it the victimised.

However, I think I should have more lucid with my meaning...

I meant that "it's reality, it sucks and even if we complain, nothing changes until politicians actually listen to us and give us what we demand."

Neesika

26-07-2007, 02:02

What bothers me most is the attitude of many people, who say, well if they weren't doing something illegal in the first place...

Well you know what? YOU might like to live in a country where cops can routinely get away with violating your Charter rights, if you commit a crime. The Supreme Court disagrees, as does the entire fabric of our Constitution. So if you think that, standing up in the back of a truck, or drinking in the wrong place, or getting rambunctious after a bad game...or hell, just being freaking Muslim...warrants the cops laying the beat down on you?

Then fuck off to Syria. I hear they go for that sort of thing. Because with bullshit ideas like yours, it's really YOU who doesn't belong here.

Funny thing is...boy things sure change when the shoe is on the other foot...'I was jaywalking, and this cop just slammed me up against the side of a building...they can't do that! I didn't do nothing wrong!'

Yeah well. Can't have it both ways, Bubba.

*you in this post is an ill-defined, singular and plural you directed at no one specific and everyone in general.

Neesika

26-07-2007, 02:06

It's not going to help solve the problem though. You can't win against the state's PR machine as long as Joe Average isn't victimized. People need 1st hand experience to overcome the bullshit they've been fed all their lives, and they'll never have it. And you can't exactly blame them for not trying to prove you wrong. Sane people just don't put themselves in harms way if they have a choice.

Education. You're right, Joe Average isn't going to believe it unless it happens to him, and frankly, I don't actually wish that upon anyone. That's not how I want people to learn.

I want some of these inquiries we've had to make an impact. Remember after APEC? The kidnapping of Jaggy Singh? The pepperspraying of the protesters? Very little came out of that long process. Nothing truly binding.

I want people to take a look a those around us with the power and go, 'hmmm...are we really sure they're doing a great job?'. Instead of teaching kids that the cops are always right...maybe we should be saying, 'with great power comes great responsibility...and it's up to us as citizens to make sure that power never goes unchecked'.

Ha...but then you have my kids who loudly say, 'are those the bad cops mom?'. Ay.

CanuckHeaven

26-07-2007, 02:10

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsIBkRJGQEw#) is a link to a video of the story.

From the article (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070704.wbcpepper04/BNStory/National/home):

Oh, I love how the band is called 'soccer mad' (you know, because soccer fans are hoodlums), and how the natives became increasinly angry and needed to be pepper sprayed.

Frankly, if you are terrified of being around the very people you are supposed to be policing? Then don't fucking work there. If you work in a community, you need to respect that community, and get to know it...especially as a police officer. How on earth can you do your job otherwise?

Don't let me make it seem as though this is just a problem among aboriginals. Far from it. Maybe the cops are just too scared period, to do their jobs properly. Even a scary teen who has been drinking is enough (http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Canada/2007/07/02/4307309.html) to frighten a cop into shooting him in the back of the head.

And hey...oooh, scary Chilean soccer team (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/fifau20/story/2007/07/20/chile-police.html) trying to sign autographs for their fans...oh no, soccer hoodlums, better taser the fuck out of them...hey, welcome to Canada, eh?

Hey, not to mention the RCMP's key involvment in shipping Maher Arar off to Syria to be tortured.

We pretend to uphold this reputation for a respect for civil liberties...oh no, we're not like the US, where police brutality is a given, no never that...yet here we are, inquiry after inquiry, incident after incident, living a lie. What the fuck is wrong with this country? Is it just too 'unCanadian' to reign these cops in?
Do you happen to have any video links to these alledged cases of police brutality?

Neesika

26-07-2007, 02:11

Police brutality is a sad reality but it won't go away until there is a board that the civilians can report to that is completely and utterly independent of the police force. They say there is one but it doesn't exist to meet the needs it the victimised.

However, I think I should have more lucid with my meaning...

I meant that "it's reality, it sucks and even if we complain, nothing changes until politicians actually listen to us and give us what we demand."

Clearer now:)

I agree. The inquiries are just lip service, and it's disgusting. A big waste of tax dollars and a 'well, we've investigated, now it's up to the Police Force to do what they want with the info'.

My favourite cry during meetings was 'BULLSHIT BULLSHIT'. I'd like to hear it more often. Maybe it will start to mean something.

What's it going to take? Lawsuits up the ying yang? It's almost impossible to win them anyway. Not without big resources on your side. And even if you do...oh, you might get someone fired, or reprimanded. But real change? That's outside the scope of the courts.

You're right, we need a political solution. But like anything else...the politicians don't do squat unless people push hard enough. And people here are too fucking lazy to push.

Similization

26-07-2007, 02:19

And people here are too fucking lazy to push.I don't think that's it. Try to imagine living in a safe little paradise. Now try to imagine having the people keeping it a safe little paradise, turn around and try to abuse, harm or kill you.

I can appreciate why people don't want to believe the police are fucking psychos. It must be scary as hell to admit to oneself that they're frequently not a bunch of nice people, working to help and take care of you. Even more so if one has teenagers.

Jeruselem

26-07-2007, 02:20

Police are a law into themselves really (like the armed forces).
We can't really expect them not to get carried away with the powers they have over us.

Neesika

26-07-2007, 02:26

Do you happen to have any video links to these alledged cases of police brutality?

Video links? Maybe I should read first, post after. And no, no I don't. Frankly, I wouldn't trust whatever clips might be out there, as edited as these things tend to be...and the original recordings well, are just out of my scope.

Ah shit, I just spent the past 10 minutes getting inquiry reports. Ah well, anyway:

So no video, but we do have this (http://www.cpc-cpp.gc.ca/DefaultSite/Reppub/index_e.aspx?ArticleID=174).

And this (http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/ch/rcap/index_e.html), where many instances of police brutality were investigated and denounced during the Commission. Only to bizarrely and temporarily get them back long enough to get Arar shipped to Syria.

And this (http://www.ipperwashinquiry.ca/)?

And let's not forget the report (http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0004009) which had the RCMP stripped of their powers as an intelligence organisation.

Similization

26-07-2007, 02:29

Police are a law into themselves really (like the armed forces).
We can't really expect them not to get carried away with the powers they have over us.If that's true, then the only recourse is for the victimized to huddle together and fight back. Unfortunately, neither civil war nor unpatrollable neighbourhoods, are any fun. OK, I've never actually been in a civil war, but I've lived in a few unpatrolled neighbourhoods, and it's shit. Not so much because the police won't come, but because no emergency services will.

Neesika

26-07-2007, 02:32

But the video question does have me thinking about something that's bugged me for a while. I would really like to see more people using the media well. For example...if the cops start breaking into a house on the reserve (or beating hockey fans in Edmonton streets)...tape the fuckers. Of course...that's assuming anyone has a recording device which is not a given. But if you do get some footage...blow it the fuck up all over the web...more of that, more embarrasing and unavoidable footage, and I think we'd start to either see

a) more crackdowns on citizens surveilling police

and/or

b) more people starting to believe that this goes on entirely too often.

Neesika

26-07-2007, 02:33

OK, I've never actually been in a civil war, but I've lived in a few unpatrolled neighbourhoods, and it's shit. Not so much because the police won't come, but because no emergency services will.

Ha, welcome to the Reserves. The cops only come when you don't need them, and never show up when you do.

JuNii

26-07-2007, 03:09

The full text of this article has 658 words.

To continue reading this article, you will need to purchase this article.

Can you post the entire article please? I for one would like to give all police the benefit of the doubt.

CanuckHeaven

26-07-2007, 03:21

JuNii

26-07-2007, 03:31

wow... now this is damaging video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-fHcMNBYJ8&).

I for one would like to give the police the benefit of the doubt, but this really doesn't look good for them.

so let's look at the points in this video.

1) The officers should have tried to calm the people down. Celebration is nice, but all the shouting and cheering around the officers trying to talk to one person doesn't help.

2) The officers had him and he was cooperating. there was NO need to pepper spray anyone.

3) The other officers, SHOULD have been keeping the other people away. they were clustered too close together... that would've lowered the threat factor by LOTS!!!

yeah, it really doesn't look good for the cops there. Sorry, I tried to find something to exonerate them... but not this time.

Now. what I like about this video? It shows almost the whole thing. the person and the officers talking calmly. NO effort by the other officers to keep/maintain order from the bystanders. and it acually shows the first use of the pepperspray.

I would certainly like to know the outcome of this investigation.

United human countries

26-07-2007, 03:37

How do we stop this? BANISH FOOTBALL AND HOCKEY! And give the candians some REAL bacon.

Neesika

26-07-2007, 05:26

I think anyone in possession of such evidence should be very careful not to misuse it.

Anyone remember Rodney King (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King)?

So the people who videotaped his beating are responsible for the riots?

Do you have any idea how hard it is to get an inquiry going? That 'evidence' is quite often the only thing that sparks one. You can bet your firstborn that no one would have picked this news story up without the various videotapes made of the event.

Soviet Haaregrad

26-07-2007, 05:32

How do we stop this? BANISH FOOTBALL AND HOCKEY! And give the candians some REAL bacon.

Back bacon is real bacon, Yanks just like to call ham 'Canadian bacon'. We don't get it either.

JuNii

26-07-2007, 05:59

So the people who videotaped his beating are responsible for the riots?

Do you have any idea how hard it is to get an inquiry going? That 'evidence' is quite often the only thing that sparks one. You can bet your firstborn that no one would have picked this news story up without the various videotapes made of the event.

ahh.. but Neesika, the NEWS picking up or not picking up the story does not mean an investigation is NOT happening.

and how hard is it to get an Inquiry going? very easy. Dunno about Canada, but here, a copy of the tape sent quietly to the District D.A., the Mayor, District Captain/Commissionar of the Police, The Police I.A. can all get the ball rolling.

now here's a question for you? if the Tape was NOT shown to the media, but given to those I listed, would there have been a riot?

Nouvelle Wallonochia

26-07-2007, 06:43

Ha, welcome to the Reserves. The cops only come when you don't need them, and never show up when you do.

Do any of the Reserves up there have their own police? The tribe I live near has one (http://www.sagchip.org/police/index.htm)who enforces tribal laws on the part/persons of the Reservation that their law applies to and Michigan laws on the part/persons that Michigan laws apply to. I technically live in the Reservation, but I honestly don't really know how the different jurisdictions are worked out. I do know that state and local police aren't allowed to go onto the Reservation proper without being expressly invited.

Kyronea

26-07-2007, 07:31

Neesika

26-07-2007, 08:23

ahh.. but Neesika, the NEWS picking up or not picking up the story does not mean an investigation is NOT happening. Oh but it DOES mean that the investigation doesn't get hushed up...that the public expects to see the results of said investigation. Many, many investigations are filed away, and never seen again...

So yes. News coverage is a huge advantage.

and how hard is it to get an Inquiry going? very easy. Bullshit.

The Ipperwash Inquiry? Just wrapped up this year. The events that sparked it? Happened in 1993. 1993.

That boy shot in Houston, BC back in 2005? An inquest is just now being held.

The fight to have an inquiry into the death of Neil Stonechild (http://www.stonechildinquiry.ca/) took 14 years.

I'm talking public inquiry, not a Special Unit Investigation, which is purely internal. No media, no hue and cry? SUI. Media, and hue and cry...you get an inquiry a lot fucking faster than these cases with no one standing there taping it.

Dunno about Canada, but here, a copy of the tape sent quietly to the District D.A., the Mayor, District Captain/Commissionar of the Police, The Police I.A. can all get the ball rolling. Why should it be quiet? Why the fuck should something like this be quiet? These are the people, paid and sworn to protect us...abusing their powers. Absolutely that should be made public.

You know what happened in the Sechelt case? The pepperspraying at the soccer celebration? Nothing. Even with the tape, initially the cops said, no harm no foul. We did things right. EVEN WITH THE TAPE.

The Sechelt sent out press releases to all First Nations, and we started phoning, and emailing, and complaining. Suddenly, the cops were apologising.

So don't tell me that a nice, quiet little letter, with the tape, to some Police Commissioner would do the trick. That's bullshit.
now here's a question for you? if the Tape was NOT shown to the media, but given to those I listed, would there have been a riot?Well gee, let me look into my retroactive crystal ball.

I predict a huge riot after those scumbag cops were acquitted, regardless.

And Rodney King was the final straw in that situation. Don't try to compare it to the makeup and tension in Canada in some sort of slippery slope 'oh no we'll have another LA Riot on our hands' argument.

Neesika

26-07-2007, 08:28

Do any of the Reserves up there have their own police? The tribe I live near has one (http://www.sagchip.org/police/index.htm)who enforces tribal laws on the part/persons of the Reservation that their law applies to and Michigan laws on the part/persons that Michigan laws apply to. I technically live in the Reservation, but I honestly don't really know how the different jurisdictions are worked out. I do know that state and local police aren't allowed to go onto the Reservation proper without being expressly invited.

US Reserves are way more populated that ours, generally speaking. Those bands that have the personnel and the funds, have tribal police. Most of us, however, simply don't have the manpower to do it ourselves. So we have to put up with RCMP....culturally ignorant at best, racist fucking pricks at worst. Turnover is high, because very rarely does the detachment make an effort to blend into the community.

Now...you go further East, into Mohawk territory, on some of the bigger Reservations, Six Nations and so forth...and OPP will not set foot on Reserve land without express invitation and permission.

Frankly, I'd like to see more of that. Problem is...our people don't have a very high opinion of law enforcement, so avoid going into it. So.

Neesika

26-07-2007, 08:32

As much fun as this police hatred fest is, don't forget that not all police officers are power-corrupt megalomaniacs. While not a police officer yet, you can be sure that when I am one, stamping out police oppression, brutality, and abuse will always be on my agenda. I don't put up with police officers abusing their power as a civilian, and I sure won't put up with it as a police officer myself. Yeah, good luck there buddy.

I've talked to many retired cops who say that blue wall sucks you in good. You know how much power you're going to have going into the force? Squat. You're going to be everybody's bitch, until you start gaining some experience and cred. Whistleblowing, snitching...very looked down upon within the force.

So unless you've got some magical system where you get to go in all fresh and new and do right, clean up the shit, etc...then you're going to be wallowing in it for a good long while.

Just like someone going into government, with fresh ideas, and a light heart...beat down by a system of bureaucracy much bigger than you, and able to outlast even the most enthusiastic do-gooder.

No, not all cops are abusive pricks. But the system itself encourages it.

And if you want political change, do something in your community to make people more aware. Get as many people as possible in favour of the changes necessary. Don't just sit here complaining. Do something!
Damn...all these years of political activism, going into law school...why wasn't I doing something useful like trying to change things?

Kyronea

26-07-2007, 08:37

Yeah, good luck there buddy.

I've talked to many retired cops who say that blue wall sucks you in good. You know how much power you're going to have going into the force? Squat. You're going to be everybody's bitch, until you start gaining some experience and cred. Whistleblowing, snitching...very looked down upon within the force.

So unless you've got some magical system where you get to go in all fresh and new and do right, clean up the shit, etc...then you're going to be wallowing in it for a good long while.

Just like someone going into government, with fresh ideas, and a light heart...beat down by a system of bureaucracy much bigger than you, and able to outlast even the most enthusiastic do-gooder.

No, not all cops are abusive pricks. But the system itself encourages it.
Point. I'm still going to try when I can, though.

Damn...all these years of political activism, going into law school...why wasn't I doing something useful like trying to change things?

I wasn't talking to you specifically, but to the general populace, much like your general you. Sorry if it seemed like I was directing it at you specifically.

Neesika

26-07-2007, 08:39

Point. I'm still going to try when I can, though.
As long as you know what you're in for. Going into the profession I am, I know the kind of crap and intertia I'm going to be dealing with. I'm going to be a very disappointed, thwarted individual a lot of the time if I get too wrapped up in it...and I've seen way too many people burn out on the activist level trying to fight things to think it's going to be any different as a lawyer.

I wasn't talking to you specifically, but to the general populace, much like your general you. Sorry if it seemed like I was directing it at you specifically.Na, I knew what you meant, I just wanted to bitch. Unlike others, I accept that there is a general, plural 'you' that is in common usage in the English language.

Kyronea

26-07-2007, 08:51

As long as you know what you're in for. Going into the profession I am, I know the kind of crap and intertia I'm going to be dealing with. I'm going to be a very disappointed, thwarted individual a lot of the time if I get too wrapped up in it...and I've seen way too many people burn out on the activist level trying to fight things to think it's going to be any different as a lawyer.
I'm doing all I can to learn, certainly.

Na, I knew what you meant, I just wanted to bitch. Unlike others, I accept that there is a general, plural 'you' that is in common usage in the English language.
Goodie. No harm, then.

Neesika

26-07-2007, 08:56

Goodie. No harm, then.

*grumble grumble*
No fun either...I don't have it in me to tear you a new arsehole for no reason.

Must be losing my touch.

Kyronea

26-07-2007, 09:01

*grumble grumble*
No fun either...I don't have it in me to tear you a new arsehole for no reason.

Must be losing my touch.
It means you're becoming a better person. We've had an influence on you. :)

Neesika

26-07-2007, 09:04

It means you're becoming a better person. We've had an influence on you. :)

I said, 'no reason'. And you give me a reason? You must be nuts.

I was a much better person before NSG sunk its claws into me.

Nouvelle Wallonochia

26-07-2007, 09:11

US Reserves are way more populated that ours, generally speaking. Those bands that have the personnel and the funds, have tribal police. Most of us, however, simply don't have the manpower to do it ourselves.

That makes sense. I'd imagine that smaller groups here have to make do with local cops as well.

So we have to put up with RCMP....culturally ignorant at best, racist fucking pricks at worst. Turnover is high, because very rarely does the detachment make an effort to blend into the community.

That sort of thing seems to happen in any system where people are "stationed" places involuntarily. It'd probably help if the RCMP only stationed volunteers in indigenous communities, but given the remote nature of some of them I doubt you'd get enough volunteers.

Frankly, I'd like to see more of that. Problem is...our people don't have a very high opinion of law enforcement, so avoid going into it. So.

Understandably. I'd imagine many groups in the US have similar opinions of law enforcement and the government in general. The Ojibwe tribe in my town has had a rather better time of it than many. Not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but better than the horror stories I hear about Navajo reservations in the Southwest.

Nodinia

26-07-2007, 09:17

Neesika

26-07-2007, 19:37

I gave that a look with no sound and couldnt tell why the cops were even there..The crowd didnt even seem that large.....Which leads to the suspicon that there was a 'reason' why the cops were there, if you follow me.....

Which was....?

Cuz I'm just not following you.

Carnivorous Lickers

26-07-2007, 19:48

dont lose touch with the fact that there are always two sides-or more to the story.

And,you will always side with the one you are subconsciously sympathetic to.

H N Fiddlebottoms VIII

26-07-2007, 19:54

Which was....?

Cuz I'm just not following you.
I think he is trying to imply that the crowd was up to something sinister, and that they therefore deserved it.
Or, perhaps, that the cops simply went there looking for a fight.

One may infer almost anything, but it'd help if one had some idea which side Nodinia was attempting to support.

Soviestan

26-07-2007, 20:00

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsIBkRJGQEw#) is a link to a video of the story.

From the article (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070704.wbcpepper04/BNStory/National/home):

Oh, I love how the band is called 'soccer mad' (you know, because soccer fans are hoodlums), and how the natives became increasinly angry and needed to be pepper sprayed.

Frankly, if you are terrified of being around the very people you are supposed to be policing? Then don't fucking work there. If you work in a community, you need to respect that community, and get to know it...especially as a police officer. How on earth can you do your job otherwise?

Don't let me make it seem as though this is just a problem among aboriginals. Far from it. Maybe the cops are just too scared period, to do their jobs properly. Even a scary teen who has been drinking is enough (http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Canada/2007/07/02/4307309.html) to frighten a cop into shooting him in the back of the head.

And hey...oooh, scary Chilean soccer team (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/fifau20/story/2007/07/20/chile-police.html) trying to sign autographs for their fans...oh no, soccer hoodlums, better taser the fuck out of them...hey, welcome to Canada, eh?

Hey, not to mention the RCMP's key involvment in shipping Maher Arar off to Syria to be tortured.

We pretend to uphold this reputation for a respect for civil liberties...oh no, we're not like the US, where police brutality is a given, no never that...yet here we are, inquiry after inquiry, incident after incident, living a lie. What the fuck is wrong with this country? Is it just too 'unCanadian' to reign these cops in?

Whats the point of Canada even having police?

Rizzoinabox336

26-07-2007, 20:07

ahahahahahha
I thought this might be something bad. It did seem that those people shouldn't have been pepper sprayed, but all those be shouldn't have been so close. It was only pepper spray these people should stop being such weak asses. It doesn't hurt very bad. The people should get a little money for their "pain" and carry on. Shit happens.

here is some real police brutality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWUS_jpt974

Jello Biafra

26-07-2007, 20:16

New Granada

26-07-2007, 20:40

It could be worse- the national sport could be taking drugs and riding bicycles, like in France.

JuNii

26-07-2007, 21:01

Oh but it DOES mean that the investigation doesn't get hushed up...that the public expects to see the results of said investigation. Many, many investigations are filed away, and never seen again...

So yes. News coverage is a huge advantage.
Bullshit.

The Ipperwash Inquiry? Just wrapped up this year. The events that sparked it? Happened in 1993. 1993.

That boy shot in Houston, BC back in 2005? An inquest is just now being held.

The fight to have an inquiry into the death of Neil Stonechild (http://www.stonechildinquiry.ca/) took 14 years.

I'm talking public inquiry, not a Special Unit Investigation, which is purely internal. No media, no hue and cry? SUI. Media, and hue and cry...you get an inquiry a lot fucking faster than these cases with no one standing there taping it.

Why should it be quiet? Why the fuck should something like this be quiet? These are the people, paid and sworn to protect us...abusing their powers. Absolutely that should be made public.

You know what happened in the Sechelt case? The pepperspraying at the soccer celebration? Nothing. Even with the tape, initially the cops said, no harm no foul. We did things right. EVEN WITH THE TAPE.

The Sechelt sent out press releases to all First Nations, and we started phoning, and emailing, and complaining. Suddenly, the cops were apologising.

So don't tell me that a nice, quiet little letter, with the tape, to some Police Commissioner would do the trick. you know what... fine then. yes, obviously all the cops in Canada are corrupt. the whole government system in Canada is corrupt since even with Media attention it takes your officals that long to investigate police wrongdoings. I'll no longer view Canadian Media as an effective tool for the public (since ALL your cases cited were covered by Canadian Media and it still took 14+ years for inquiries to occur) and I'll view Canadian Government to be corrupt since it too took 14+ years for anything to be done. and Canadian cops are obviously guilty until proven innocent.

you show inquiries for cases that have been covered by your media yet it appears that public outcry in Canada is largely ignored by Canadian police and local government. Thanks for proving the ineffectiveness of your media, the corruptness of your cops and the wet blanket that is your government.

I gave that a look with no sound and couldnt tell why the cops were even there..The crowd didnt even seem that large.....Which leads to the suspicon that there was a 'reason' why the cops were there, if you follow me.....with sound, you hear people cheering. you can't hear anything between the cops and the driver.

It could've been a simple traffic stop or something else. but looking at their actions, it doesn't show hostility on the part of the crowd.

However as Neesika continuously points out. all their cops are corrupt and their media useless in keeping them in line.

Rizzoinabox336

26-07-2007, 21:17

you know what... fine then. yes, obviously all the cops in Canada are corrupt. the whole government system in Canada is corrupt since even with Media attention it takes your officals that long to investigate police wrongdoings. I'll no longer view Canadian Media as an effective tool for the public (since ALL your cases cited were covered by Canadian Media and it still took 14+ years for inquiries to occur) and I'll view Canadian Government to be corrupt since it too took 14+ years for anything to be done. and Canadian cops are obviously guilty until proven innocent.

you show inquiries for cases that have been covered by your media yet it appears that public outcry in Canada is largely ignored by Canadian police and local government. Thanks for proving the ineffectiveness of your media, the corruptness of your cops and the wet blanket that is your government.

with sound, you hear people cheering. you can't hear anything between the cops and the driver.

It could've been a simple traffic stop or something else. but looking at their actions, it doesn't show hostility on the part of the crowd.

However as Neesika continuously points out. all their cops are corrupt and their media useless in keeping them in line.

"Canadian cops are obviously guilty until proven innocent."

" all their cops are corrupt"

ahahahahahahah, I love all of you so much. Thank you for making my day. A few people get pepper sprayed and all cops are corrupt. Also if the cops are guilty until proven innocent, those people in the truck were as well. So maybe the cops didn't use enough force.

Nodinia

26-07-2007, 21:41

Which was....?

Cuz I'm just not following you.

Well, in this case it would be 'forming a crowd while being "injuns(or whatever term they use"'.

Nodinia

26-07-2007, 21:44

I think he is trying to imply that the crowd was up to something sinister, and that they therefore deserved it.
Or, perhaps, that the cops simply went there looking for a fight.

The latter. They have to have a 'reasonable suspicion' in some countries. It varies from 'suspicion of being black' to whoever might be the cops favourite whipping boy, depending on location.

Remote Observer

26-07-2007, 21:46

At least they're not paying neo-Nazis to beat up gays, like they do in Europe.

Whoa. I call bullshit on that one. You would have to be stupid to pay neo-Nazis to do something they already enjoy doing full-time for nothing.

Similization

26-07-2007, 21:57

Whoa. I call bullshit on that one.I wish... I don't think any allegations of this have been proven outside Poland, but the allegations have been leveled in several EU and former East bloc countries.You would have to be stupid to pay neo-Nazis to do something they already enjoy doing full-time for nothing.Faulty logic. You'd have to be stupid to be a fag-bashing copper in the first place :D
Seriously though, you'll find incidents of neo-Nazis recruiting directly from police departments, and coppers and neo-Nazis hanging out together in pretty much any country.

JuNii

26-07-2007, 22:41

"Canadian cops are obviously guilty until proven innocent."

" all their cops are corrupt"

ahahahahahahah, I love all of you so much. Thank you for making my day. A few people get pepper sprayed and all cops are corrupt. Also if the cops are guilty until proven innocent, those people in the truck were as well. So maybe the cops didn't use enough force.

Hey, I was the one giving Canada's finest the benefit of the doubt. but being that I have no actual experience with Canadian Police forces and limited knowledge on their procedures and practices, I can't offer any reasonable defense for them.

so I'll conceed to Neesika's viewpoint when it comes to Canada's forces. ;)

Gibberon

26-07-2007, 23:06

I think Canada should have a provincial police force for each province, leaving the Mounties as a sort of (occasionally uniformed) FBI in Canada. At the moment, only Quebec, Ontario and Newfoundland have separate forces. Elsewhere, there are "local" RCMP detachments [in blue uniforms, as distinct from the khaki or brown ones for the federal units. These days, red tunics and tan riding boots are only for the tourists and when Lizzie comes to visit etc]. I think that the police need to be directly accountable, at local level.

Before 1923, there was a "Dominion Police" force, which fulfilled an "FBI"-type role. In that year, it was merged with the North West Mounted Police, to form the RCMP. British Columbia had its own provincial force, until the late 1950s, according to a friend of my grandfather.

I remember being told a story about the Montreal Police, during the Second World War. Liverpool and London sailors used to fight each other in bars, all around the World. The Montreal Police were well aware of this and, one day, when some convoys had been delayed and the city had more British sailors than usual, the Fuzz started to get heavy with the two sides. Much to the surprise (and terror) of les garcons en bleu, the Scousers and Cockneys joined forces and, because the Montreal force was actually very small, chased the cops right out of the city! How cool is that? I think they got away with it too.

Soviet Haaregrad

26-07-2007, 23:51

I remember being told a story about the Montreal Police, during the Second World War. Liverpool and London sailors used to fight each other in bars, all around the World. The Montreal Police were well aware of this and, one day, when some convoys had been delayed and the city had more British sailors than usual, the Fuzz started to get heavy with the two sides. Much to the surprise (and terror) of les garcons en bleu, the Scousers and Cockneys joined forces and, because the Montreal force was actually very small, chased the cops right out of the city! How cool is that? I think they got away with it too.

Who was left to arrest them? ;)

Neesika

27-07-2007, 00:00

dont lose touch with the fact that there are always two sides-or more to the story.

And,you will always side with the one you are subconsciously sympathetic to.

Yeah. I'm sympathetic to the people who aren't armed.

Police get the extreme benefit of the doubt as it is. I don't need to give them more.

Neesika

27-07-2007, 00:03

ahahahahahha
I thought this might be something bad. Fuck off.

It did seem that those people shouldn't have been pepper sprayed, but all those be shouldn't have been so close. It was only pepper spray these people should stop being such weak asses. It doesn't hurt very bad. The people should get a little money for their "pain" and carry on. Shit happens.
In a first world nation who supposedly respects human rights? FUCK no, shit doesn't just 'happen' and just because it wasn't more brutal get a pass.
here is some real police brutality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWUS_jpt974
Oh no. Our cops aren't as bad as Saddam's were. Therefore they must be good.

Neesika

27-07-2007, 00:12

you know what... fine then. yes, obviously all the cops in Canada are corrupt. the whole government system in Canada is corrupt since even with Media attention it takes your officals that long to investigate police wrongdoings. I'll no longer view Canadian Media as an effective tool for the public (since ALL your cases cited were covered by Canadian Media and it still took 14+ years for inquiries to occur) and I'll view Canadian Government to be corrupt since it too took 14+ years for anything to be done. and Canadian cops are obviously guilty until proven innocent.

you show inquiries for cases that have been covered by your media yet it appears that public outcry in Canada is largely ignored by Canadian police and local government. Thanks for proving the ineffectiveness of your media, the corruptness of your cops and the wet blanket that is your government.:rolleyes: Wow, that was easy to flip you completely over on to the other side.

None of these cases got huge media attention at the time they happened. In fact, that was the biggest problem...no one heard about them for a long time. It was just family raising their voices. The media didn't bother to pick up these stories until enough people on the ground organised.

Please show me how PUBLIC inquiries in YOUR country happen at the drop of a hat, the way you've suggested. No, I'm not talking internal investigations, I'm talking an actual outside inquest or inquiry, with details available to the public.

.

However as Neesika continuously points out. all their cops are corrupt and their media useless in keeping them in line.
No...I've been pointing out that the media is a very effective tool for getting things to happen. ESPECIALLY when there is a videotape of the event. I do not particularily believe that Canadian cops are any better, or worse than US cops in the way they like to look out for one another and cover things up.

Neesika

27-07-2007, 00:13

Well, in this case it would be 'forming a crowd while being "injuns(or whatever term they use"'.

Always a scary thing for Rez cops.

It used to be a crime actually...until about the 60s. For more than three Indians to gather in one place.

I guess that sort of fear hasn't left us.

JuNii

27-07-2007, 00:28

:rolleyes: Wow, that was easy to flip you completely over on to the other side.

None of these cases got huge media attention at the time they happened. In fact, that was the biggest problem...no one heard about them for a long time. It was just family raising their voices. The media didn't bother to pick up these stories until enough people on the ground organised.

Please show me how PUBLIC inquiries in YOUR country happen at the drop of a hat, the way you've suggested. No, I'm not talking internal investigations, I'm talking an actual outside inquest or inquiry, with details available to the public.nope, as I said, I am not familiar with Canada's police procedures.

HUGE media Attention... so they were displayed on the media and what... no one else cared enough to make it a deal back then? I don't believe that.

as for inquiries that occur at the drop of a hat? all Police officers here undergo a review/inquiry when they discarge their weapon. they also undergo an inqury should any injury be sustained when a person is injured/hurt while the officer is on the scene. This is to insure the officer did act properly and to establish the cause and reason for such injury and damage.

One undercover officer was killed in the line of duty while arresting a violent felon. the perp claimed they didn't identify themselves as police when they moved in, but by the time they questioned that on the media an inquiry was already underway into the incident because weapon fire occured, and the arrest took place at a public place (Baskin Robbins) where civilians were put at risk. it was found that the officers did properly id themselves and took the necessary steps to insure civilian safety and the felon was tried for bail jumping, resisting arrest and the apporpriate charges for the death of that officer. (assault with a deadly weapon, endangering lives, etc..)

No...I've been pointing out that the media is a very effective tool for getting things to happen. ESPECIALLY when there is a videotape of the event. I do not particularily believe that Canadian cops are any better, or worse than US cops in the way they like to look out for one another and cover things up. yet as you said, with these videos on display, nothing happened to those officers involved. yet for the US. videos like that that do get such exposure, an inquiry is conducted.

so which is it. The cops are corrupted and the system, including the media, is useless? or there are some bad apples in the police force and the system does it's best to weed them out?

can't have it both ways.

Jello Biafra

27-07-2007, 00:40

Neesika

27-07-2007, 02:51

nope, as I said, I am not familiar with Canada's police procedures.

HUGE media Attention... so they were displayed on the media and what... no one else cared enough to make it a deal back then? I don't believe that. Dead indians don't get a lot of media coverage. If any. Ditto for dead homeless people, dead hookers, etc etc. Sorry...I don't think your country is any different in that regard.

as for inquiries that occur at the drop of a hat? all Police officers here undergo a review/inquiry when they discarge their weapon. they also undergo an inqury should any injury be sustained when a person is injured/hurt while the officer is on the scene. This is to insure the officer did act properly and to establish the cause and reason for such injury and damage.
None of which is open and public, and is EXACTLY the kind of SUI review I was talking about. I also very clearly specified to you that I wanted examples of PUBLIC inquiries, and NOT routines SUIs. Please try again.

One undercover officer was killed in the line of duty while arresting a violent felon. the perp claimed they didn't identify themselves as police when they moved in, but by the time they questioned that on the media an inquiry was already underway into the incident because weapon fire occured, and the arrest took place at a public place (Baskin Robbins) where civilians were put at risk. it was found that the officers did properly id themselves and took the necessary steps to insure civilian safety and the felon was tried for bail jumping, resisting arrest and the apporpriate charges for the death of that officer. (assault with a deadly weapon, endangering lives, etc..) Ah, and this PUBLIC inquiry, and the report coming out of it is available where? I'd like to see it thanks.

Because what you're describing sounds an awful lot like a routing internal investigation and review. The findings of which may or may not be released to the public in dribs and drabs, wholly, or completely censored. In a public inquiry, ALL the details are available.

yet as you said, with these videos on display, nothing happened to those officers involved. yet for the US. videos like that that do get such exposure, an inquiry is conducted. Ugh, do you even bother to read? I said in the cases I listed, Stonechild, the guy shot in Houston BC...there were no videos. There were some, unclear videos from Ipperwash, but the cops had most of them and wouldn't release them until forced.

So...no videos released to the media. HAD there been videos, released to the media, not hush hush released like you would have them...those inquiries most likely would have happened at lost faster. Which has been my point all along.

so which is it. The cops are corrupted and the system, including the media, is useless? or there are some bad apples in the police force and the system does it's best to weed them out?

can't have it both ways. It is thus:

USE THE FUCKING MEDIA, IT WORKS.

I don't know where you keep getting this, 'but they used the media and it didn't work crap'...unless you've really just been skimming my posts from the start.

The system of inquiry is faulty as quite often, these huge, multimillion dollar commissions and so forth, simply do not have binding power on the police forces under fire. They can recommend, but they can not CHANGE. THAT is up to legislators, working with law enforcement. And that is up to the people to rouse up enough political will to force said changes. We simply do not hold our law enforcement agencies accountable enough. Too many people in this country...AND in yours, believe that those who are allowed to wield force somehow are above corruption.

Rizzoinabox336

27-07-2007, 03:30

Fuck off.

In a first world nation who supposedly respects human rights? FUCK no, shit doesn't just 'happen' and just because it wasn't more brutal get a pass.

Oh no. Our cops aren't as bad as Saddam's were. Therefore they must be good.

I've been pepper sprayed, and shot with bean bags by riot police before. Shit happens, now if they were beating black people for no reason or raping women, like a few of the cops in my town, I'd see the need for concern. I don't know what kind of human rights your talking about but, I didn't feel getting pepper sprayed violated my human rights. I went to a sink and washed it out and carred on. When police are conducting a road stop, the other people who were around should have backed off, they didn't know what those people were thinking.

Calling this brutality is so far from the truth its sick. This was a little misunderstanding, where some people got sprayed with pepper spray.

Mirkai

27-07-2007, 03:41

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsIBkRJGQEw#) is a link to a video of the story.

From the article (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070704.wbcpepper04/BNStory/National/home):

Oh, I love how the band is called 'soccer mad' (you know, because soccer fans are hoodlums), and how the natives became increasinly angry and needed to be pepper sprayed.

Frankly, if you are terrified of being around the very people you are supposed to be policing? Then don't fucking work there. If you work in a community, you need to respect that community, and get to know it...especially as a police officer. How on earth can you do your job otherwise?

Don't let me make it seem as though this is just a problem among aboriginals. Far from it. Maybe the cops are just too scared period, to do their jobs properly. Even a scary teen who has been drinking is enough (http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Canada/2007/07/02/4307309.html) to frighten a cop into shooting him in the back of the head.

And hey...oooh, scary Chilean soccer team (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/fifau20/story/2007/07/20/chile-police.html) trying to sign autographs for their fans...oh no, soccer hoodlums, better taser the fuck out of them...hey, welcome to Canada, eh?

Hey, not to mention the RCMP's key involvment in shipping Maher Arar off to Syria to be tortured.

We pretend to uphold this reputation for a respect for civil liberties...oh no, we're not like the US, where police brutality is a given, no never that...yet here we are, inquiry after inquiry, incident after incident, living a lie. What the fuck is wrong with this country? Is it just too 'unCanadian' to reign these cops in?

Yes, because the mistakes of a few individuals in a force that spans the country means the entire organization is evil and corrupt.

Personally.. I've never known anyone that was subject to police brutality. I've never been subject to it. Furthermore, one of the articles you linked to was a man who was shot while holding a police officer down against a couch (and the officer in question showing a very, very strong emotional reaction; consistent with assertions that it was inadvertent), another was an article about soccer players being detained and not arrested (Oooh, what a horrific abuse scandal that must be!), and the first we can't even read because the site requires a membership; not to mention that using pepper spray on a very llarge and angry crowd that is boxing you in is understandable (and protip: Don't take your six-month-old to a fucking riot.)

L2appreciate the people that try to keep law and order in your country.

JuNii

27-07-2007, 04:38

Dead indians don't get a lot of media coverage. If any. Ditto for dead homeless people, dead hookers, etc etc. Sorry...I don't think your country is any different in that regard. If dead Indians don't get alot of media coverage, that is the public's fault.

I can't speak for other states, but here in Hawaii, yes, Dead Hookers, Homeless people, native whatevers, etc... anyone who is found dead under unusual circumstances are investigated, and reported. And those reports are updated as information is given. Edit (and yes, if the family wishes the name not be released, the media tends to respect those wishes.)

WE have a high traffic of tourists. so a strange body found anywhere is investigated because it could be a dead homeless person, or it could be a dead tourist... Epecially if the death is unusual.

I would expect that of any city/state that has a high number of visitors.

Because what you're describing sounds an awful lot like a routing internal investigation and review. The findings of which may or may not be released to the public in dribs and drabs, wholly, or completely censored. In a public inquiry, ALL the details are available. correct, I may have mixed the two up, Apologies.

However, there has been few cries for Public Inquires here because our internal investigations weed out the bad cops and clears the honest ones. Those officers who are found breaking the law, are punished and yes, News Reports of what they did are broadcast.

The system of inquiry is faulty as quite often, these huge, multimillion dollar commissions and so forth, simply do not have binding power on the police forces under fire. They can recommend, but they can not CHANGE. THAT is up to legislators, working with law enforcement. And that is up to the people to rouse up enough political will to force said changes. We simply do not hold our law enforcement agencies accountable enough. Too many people in this country...AND in yours, believe that those who are allowed to wield force somehow are above corruption. and too many people lambast the cops too fast and too quickly in My country and... well, I'll not make assumptions for the Police force nor the pubics view of them in other countries.

I for one am satisfied for the accountability of My States Police Force. And thus I will debate/stand against anyone who tries a police officer, or anyone for that matter, on the basis of a couple of videos or news reports here on a FORUM before the accused is sent through the system (trial).

People often forget that "innocent till proven guilty" covers Law Enforcement officers here as well. In Canada, that's up to you and yours.

and Notice, tho some may call me "Pro Police". I don't make any excuses for those officers who are found guilty. and yes, there are those that are. but I wait till the courts finds them guilty.

EDIT: oh and Neesika, can you cut and paste the article from your OP. it says I need to BUY the article.

Eastern Noble

27-07-2007, 04:48

Neesika

27-07-2007, 05:57

I've been pepper sprayed, and shot with bean bags by riot police before. Shit happens, now if they were beating black people for no reason or raping women, like a few of the cops in my town, I'd see the need for concern. I don't know what kind of human rights your talking about but, I didn't feel getting pepper sprayed violated my human rights. I went to a sink and washed it out and carred on. When police are conducting a road stop, the other people who were around should have backed off, they didn't know what those people were thinking.

Calling this brutality is so far from the truth its sick. This was a little misunderstanding, where some people got sprayed with pepper spray.
No, what is sickening is your apparent belief that because 'you are so fucking tough you took this and that and the other thing', the rest of us should have our CHARTER RIGHTS VIOLATED by the police.

You might think it's not brutality until someone gets put in the hospital. Oh wait...pepperspray can cause respitory problems and does in fact send many people to hospital. Just like 14 of the Sechelt citizens were. Okay, so...you might not think it's brutality until someone is beaten so badly they need medical attention, but the Supreme Court of Canada disagrees. Section 7 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms disagrees.

I don't give a flying fuck what you 'endured'. It has absolutely no bearing on what the police in this country should be allowed to do. And yes. Spraying pepperspray in the faces of infants, children, adults and elders IS brutality. Just because it doesn't fit your fucked up 'level of what gets to be called brutality' means nothing. It should not have to get to beating people black and blue and raping women for people to be concerned. It's YOUR kind of attitude that allows police brutality to escalate to the level you've described as being common where you're from.

Good job there, buddy.

Neesika

27-07-2007, 06:06

Yes, because the mistakes of a few individuals in a force that spans the country means the entire organization is evil and corrupt.

Personally.. I've never known anyone that was subject to police brutality. And I counter your pointless anecdotal evidence with many, many stories of people I know who HAVE been subject to police brutality. Boy, that was fun.

I've never been subject to it.That's nice. I have. On numerous occasions.

Furthermore, one of the articles you linked to was a man who was shot while holding a police officer down against a couch Hey, try reading. There is NO way it could have been physically possible for the cop's version of the events to have happened. Kind of the point of the whole inquiry, no? "Hey, so you were struggling under him, and somehow you shot him in the back of the head? Really? Do you have like...Go-Go Gadget arms? Yeah, didn't think so".
(and the officer in question showing a very, very strong emotional reaction; consistent with assertions that it was inadvertent), Yeah, I'd be emotional too if I killed someone because I freaked the fuck out...and if my career was going up in flames (rightfully) because of it. In fact...if you weren't showing a very strong emotional reaction in that situation, I'd be concerned for your sanity.

another was an article about soccer players being detained and not arrested (Oooh, what a horrific abuse scandal that must be!),
Actually, the gist of the article was the cops whipping out the pepper spray, batons and taser guns like mad cuz they got scared. The fact that no one committed a crime, and no one was arrested should be ringing alarms in your head about the justification for that sort escalation on the part of the cops.

and the first we can't even read because the site requires a membership; not to mention that using pepper spray on a very llarge and angry crowd that is boxing you in is understandable (and protip: Don't take your six-month-old to a fucking riot.) A riot? Go watch the link provided for you by another poster. A riot? Get a fucking grip. Community members, coming home from a soccer match, and celebrating, were stopped by cops. They started to arrest one of the men driving a vehicle where it is alleged some teens were standing up in the back of. Community members wanted to know why...and then the cops started pepperspraying like mad.

A riot? Give your head a shake.

L2appreciate the people that try to keep law and order in your country.
Hilarious. Your attempt to skew every single link I gave in a fashion totally and utterly inconsistent with the facts laid out, even IN those links is laughable at best. Try reading with less of a goose in your step.

Neesika

27-07-2007, 06:32

If dead Indians don't get alot of media coverage, that is the public's fault. Of course it is.

A white chick in Edmonton went missing. There was a massive manhunt, my god, the media coverage. Turns out her scumbag husband (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2005/07/19/lianawhite070519.html) killed her.

A ridiculous amount (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/05/12/stolen-sisters.html) of women since the 80s just here in Edmonton have gone missing, twenty of them found murdered (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/edmonton_murders/)...all aboriginal women...some prostitutes, some not, though it's always suggested they could have been. Where were the manhunts? It's only been since the Pickton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pickton) debacle that Edmonton cops are starting to say...hey, maybe we have a serial killer here too. It's not entirely up to the public. The cops should be actively investigating these deaths even without a hue and cry.

I can't speak for other states, but here in Hawaii, yes, Dead Hookers, Homeless people, native whatevers, etc... anyone who is found dead under unusual circumstances are investigated, and reported. And those reports are updated as information is given. Edit (and yes, if the family wishes the name not be released, the media tends to respect those wishes.) No shit they are investigated. Are you telling me, since the subject was media coverage, that dead hookers and homeless people get massive media attention? Wow, that's one amazing place you live in. Now...how many of those murders are solved?

WE have a high traffic of tourists. so a strange body found anywhere is investigated because it could be a dead homeless person, or it could be a dead tourist... Epecially if the death is unusual. Ah...so the motive here is not wanting to get caught with your pants down just in case some dirty looking dude turns out to be a banker from California.

Yeah, I guess our cops really don't have that sort of incentive.

I would expect that of any city/state that has a high number of visitors.

correct, I may have mixed the two up, Apologies.

However, there has been few cries for Public Inquires here because our internal investigations weed out the bad cops and clears the honest ones. Those officers who are found breaking the law, are punished and yes, News Reports of what they did are broadcast. Oh goody...well, I wish your squeaky clean cops would come here and teach ours how to clean fucking house. For real.

and too many people lambast the cops too fast and too quickly in My country and... well, I'll not make assumptions for the Police force nor the pubics view of them in other countries. Too few lambast them here, even when they have been dumping aboriginals out in the freezing cold to die for decades. Even when suggestions they were doing this were coming in fast and furious...no no, our boys in blue would never do such a thing. Damn, until the Stonechild Inquiry sort of made people face the fact that yes, yes they do.

I for one am satisfied for the accountability of My States Police Force. And thus I will debate/stand against anyone who tries a police officer, or anyone for that matter, on the basis of a couple of videos or news reports here on a FORUM before the accused is sent through the system (trial).

People often forget that "innocent till proven guilty" covers Law Enforcement officers here as well. In Canada, that's up to you and yours. What we'd like is to actually get to the trial part. Too often, the internal review is all that happens. Or some poor cop, because of lack of witnesses, can't quite be charged with murder...but the evidence is compelling enough to cause him to be given paid leave for a while until things cool down...

Hey, let's forget the almost yearly Federal ombudsman report on the status of the justice system in Canada...that cites over and over the presence of systemic racism and recommends this issue finally be addressed. It never is of course. Just like the various Royal Commission and Inquiry recommendations never are, because they aren't binding. Just polite suggestions.

It's a farce.

EDIT: oh and Neesika, can you cut and paste the article from your OP. it says I need to BUY the article.I tossed up another link there for you, front page.

United Chicken Kleptos

27-07-2007, 06:38

SOCCER RIOT!!! WOOO!!!

*starts smashing things*

Wait, no, that's Scotland, I think...

Neesika

27-07-2007, 06:46

SOCCER RIOT!!! WOOO!!!

*starts smashing things*

Wait, no, that's Scotland, I think...

We haven't perfected the art yet. We had to import rioters to teach us their ways :P

Rizzoinabox336

27-07-2007, 07:06

No, what is sickening is your apparent belief that because 'you are so fucking tough you took this and that and the other thing', the rest of us should have our CHARTER RIGHTS VIOLATED by the police.

You might think it's not brutality until someone gets put in the hospital. Oh wait...pepperspray can cause respitory problems and does in fact send many people to hospital. Just like 14 of the Sechelt citizens were. Okay, so...you might not think it's brutality until someone is beaten so badly they need medical attention, but the Supreme Court of Canada disagrees. Section 7 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms disagrees.

I don't give a flying fuck what you 'endured'. It has absolutely no bearing on what the police in this country should be allowed to do. And yes. Spraying pepperspray in the faces of infants, children, adults and elders IS brutality. Just because it doesn't fit your fucked up 'level of what gets to be called brutality' means nothing. It should not have to get to beating people black and blue and raping women for people to be concerned. It's YOUR kind of attitude that allows police brutality to escalate to the level you've described as being common where you're from.

Good job there, buddy.

I do partly agree with what you have said. Just because my standand is different that Canada's doesn't mean much. If the people of Canada thinks that is brutality doesn't mean that I have to think it is. If the laws there say it is, then let the laws punish the police. Those things I talked about weren't normal in my area it happened a few times and the ones involed were delt with. One is serving life in prison. From the video I saw, that crowd was way too close to what was going on and should have backed up. The cops also should have delt with the people one at a time and moved them away from each other. The police there need to work on their operating procudures.

Brutality is: The state or quality of being ruthless, cruel, harsh, or unrelenting

Those police may have been harsh, but didn't see any of the other traits.

Neesika

27-07-2007, 07:16

I do partly agree with what you have said. Just because my standand is different that Canada's doesn't mean much. If the people of Canada thinks that is brutality doesn't mean that I have to think it is. If the laws there say it is, then let the laws punish the police. Those things I talked about weren't normal in my area it happened a few times and the ones involed were delt with. One is serving life in prison. From the video I saw, that crowd was way too close to what was going on and should have backed up. The cops also should have delt with the people one at a time and moved them away from each other. The police there need to work on their operating procudures. Frick, you work me up to a froth and then get all reasonable on me? Harldly sporting, chap.

You're right, the cops did not use effective crowd control, and the situation escalated. But crowd control is their job. We need to ensure these guys have better training so they don't feel the need to reach automatically for the pepper spray, or tasers, or batons, or what have you.

But in the meantime, we don't need to be giving them a pass when their incompetence results in violence against a crowd of people that was in great part made of up children, returning from a soccer tournament.

And I'm glad to hear the events you described weren't considered run of the mill where you live, because that was a scary prospect.

Here's my biggest beef with the whole thing. Candada prides itself on it's squeaky clean international image. Big time. It's a huge source of pride for us. We like to believe we are a model for respect of human rights and civil liberties. It's a beautiful thing to aspire to.

That's why when protestors were pepper sprayed and beaten at the APEC summit, international condemnation poured in. That kind of behaviour was expected in other countries...but in Canada? Should never have happened.

The thing is...many things go on in Canada's seedy underbelly that should put us to shame...that in fact, often don't even get the Canadian public's attention until someone from OUTSIDE signs a spotlight on us. So...are we really squeaky clean? Or just really, really good at covering things up? Ask the family of that Somali teen (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/1999/06/09/arone990609.html) Canadian soldiers tortured to death. Ask Maher Arar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar). Ask the families of the Stolen Sisters, whose many, many murders remain unsolved.

Brutality is: The state or quality of being ruthless, cruel, harsh, or unrelenting

Those police may have been harsh, but didn't see any of the other traits.

Really? You don't think it takes ruthlessness to pepperspray an infant? Hmmm.

JuNii

27-07-2007, 08:00

I tossed up another link there for you, front page. thanks. now some points.

you mentioned this.
You know what happened in the Sechelt case? The pepperspraying at the soccer celebration? Nothing. Even with the tape, initially the cops said, no harm no foul. We did things right. EVEN WITH THE TAPE.

The Sechelt sent out press releases to all First Nations, and we started phoning, and emailing, and complaining. Suddenly, the cops were apologising.

yet in the article in your op...

Baby injured in RCMP pepper spraying of natives
By Jonathan Fowlie and Jonathan Woodward, Vancouver Sun
Published: Tuesday, July 03, 2007

so when did this actually take place where everyone phoned in, emailed and what not?

Oh... wait... HERE (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/07/10/bc-standoff.html)
Tuesday they are upset because they feel Chief Stan Dixon acted alone when he accepted an apology from the RCMP after the incident on July 2.

so the chief accepted the apology from the police for the July 2nd incident. back to your article...

A RCMP spokesperson apologized for spraying the children,

And this article was written when? JULY 3rd. and you managed a phone and email campaign in less than 24 hours, including sending out press releases?

so your beef with this incident should NOT be that the officers did not apologize, but the CHIEF of the indian reservation did not DEMAND anything more... like say recompensation for the medical treatment of those affected, or an investigation into the conduct and procedures those officers used.

THAT'S probably why the RCMP consider the matter closed, THAT'S why the Video made no difference. Not that the RCMP are being assholes, but the Tribal Chief chose to close the matter. (the reason behind the lock in... the lock in protest is targetting the Tribal CHIEF, not RCMP CHIEF.)

so to answer your question.
You know what happened in the Sechelt case? The pepperspraying at the soccer celebration? Nothing. wrong, the RCMP apologized and the Tribal CHIEF accepted it. Even with the tape, initially the cops said, no harm no foul. We did things right. EVEN WITH THE TAPE.
because the Tribal CHIEF accepted the apology. even the natives realize that and that's why THEY are going after the Tribal Chief and NOT the RCMP. The Tribal Chief should've pressed for an inquiry.

Even your video which claims "no apology was forthcoming" was posted on July 3rd... the day that the tribal Chief accepted the RCMP apology.

So what is your definition of the terms in the Tripartite Agreement the Sechelt tribe signed?

Neesika

27-07-2007, 18:43

so the chief accepted the apology from the police for the July 2nd incident. back to your article... Ha, now for some more info (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/07/10/bc-standoff.html) on what happened after the chief accepted the apology.

About 60 members of the Sechelt Indian Band on B.C.'s Sunshine Coast have locked down three buildings, demanding their chief resign over his handling of a pepper-spraying incident involving RCMP.

Robert Joe, one of the band members involved in the standoff, told CBC News on Tuesday they are upset because they feel Chief Stan Dixon acted alone when he accepted an apology from the RCMP after the incident on July 2.

The people are FURIOUS with him, and do NOT accept the the apology. Further, they want the chief to resign for doing so without their permission.

And this article was written when? JULY 3rd. and you managed a phone and email campaign in less than 24 hours, including sending out press releases?
The phoning and emails have been ongoing since the incident...including during the protest against the chief, up to right now, calling for an investigation into the way the cops handled this.

so your beef with this incident should NOT be that the officers did not apologize, but the CHIEF of the indian reservation did not DEMAND anything more... like say recompensation for the medical treatment of those affected, or an investigation into the conduct and procedures those officers used. Precisely why he is being pressured out. But no, our beef is still that the initial actions of the police were wrong, and the way they police Reserves needs to be looked at. Just because the Chief made an ass of himself and accepted the apology against the wishes of the community, does not suddenly deflect all that blame onto him.

THAT'S probably why the RCMP consider the matter closed, THAT'S why the Video made no difference. BULLSHIT. The Chief is not the final word on the matter. Regardless of HIS acceptance, community members were still angry, still phoning, still demanding an investigation. You don't get to ignore that just because a single political individual says, "aw, hey guys, no problem".

Not that the RCMP are being assholes, but the Tribal Chief chose to close the matter. (the reason behind the lock in... the lock in protest is targetting the Tribal CHIEF, not RCMP CHIEF.) No shit sherlock. Why would they target the RCMP chief when they are angry at the Band chief?

And yes, the RCMP are still being assholes. They know this has caused a huge rift in the community, they know the people don't support the chief's actions.

so to answer your question.
wrong, the RCMP apologized and the Tribal CHIEF accepted it.
because the Tribal CHIEF accepted the apology. even the natives realize that and that's why THEY are going after the Tribal Chief and NOT the RCMP. The Tribal Chief should've pressed for an inquiry.

Even your video which claims "no apology was forthcoming" was posted on July 3rd... the day that the tribal Chief accepted the RCMP apology.
The video wasn't enough initially to get any reaction. RCMP said over and over, nope, we aren't going to apologise, we did everything right.

The apology came after the video was released on a wider scale, and the RCMP were flooded with angry calls. See? See how the media works?

The apology was accepted. Whew! No investigation needed, yay!

Oh wait, the Sechelt are pissed at the chief and don't actually accept the apology? Oh shit...man, they're playing that video again on the news...people keep calling us...damn, what are we going to do...

These are the demands being made by the Sechelt (http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/pstory.html?id=d8c47bcc-2946-4d30-b8d6-a0adf3fe6574&k=33550), since the 4th...note,the apology came and was accepted on the 5th. It was then rejected and the sit in began on the 10th:

The Sechelt Indian Band council met yesterday with Sechelt RCMP and Sunshine Coast MLA Nicholas Simons. The band demanded:

- A public apology for the way the situation was handled by police.

- That charges of obstructing a police officer and failing to stop for a police vehicle against Troy Mayers be dropped.

- A review of the tripartite agreement on policing the reserve.

- That RCMP participate in or help provide counselling for children traumatized by the incident.

The band also filed a complaint with the RCMP complaints commissioner. Phillip said an apology and arms-length investigation are "absolutely essential."

Media pressure. It's a fantastic thing.

So what is your definition of the terms in the Tripartite Agreement the Sechelt tribe signed?

I'm sorry...what are you asking? Do you want to speak to specific terms? If so, list them...your question is very vague.

JuNii

27-07-2007, 19:28

Ha, now for some more info (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/07/10/bc-standoff.html) on what happened after the chief accepted the apology.yyyeeesss... I linked to that article. and if you note, the people are angry at the Tribal Chief. and rightly so.

The people are FURIOUS with him, and do NOT accept the the apology. Further, they want the chief to resign for doing so without their permission.yep. however, do you know the politics and governing system within that tribe?

The phoning and emails have been ongoing since the incident...including during the protest against the chief, up to right now, calling for an investigation into the way the cops handled this.yet your claim that they never apologized has been shot down. and according to their tribal laws, who can call a public inquiry of the RCMP?

Precisely why he is being pressured out. But no, our beef is still that the initial actions of the police were wrong, and the way they police Reserves needs to be looked at. Just because the Chief made an ass of himself and accepted the apology against the wishes of the community, does not suddenly deflect all that blame onto him.
BULLSHIT. The Chief is not the final word on the matter. Regardless of HIS acceptance, community members were still angry, still phoning, still demanding an investigation. You don't get to ignore that just because a single political individual says, "aw, hey guys, no problem".I didn't say it deflects the blame, but what you failed to mention is that the relationship between the RCMP and the tribe isn't as cut and dried as you make it out to be. as far as I'm researching (and still am btw) the agreement between the tribe and RCMP is not as simple as the relationship between Non-Tribal Canadian citizens and the RCMP.

No shit sherlock. Why would they target the RCMP chief when they are angry at the Band chief? so they're angry with the chief (and rightly so) but your whole thread here is pissed not at the chief but the RCMP. (and the Cheif has agreed to another election after a 30 day cooling off periord.)

And yes, the RCMP are still being assholes. They know this has caused a huge rift in the community, they know the people don't support the chief's actions.

The video wasn't enough initially to get any reaction. RCMP said over and over, nope, we aren't going to apologise, we did everything right.yet your OP article says they did apologise. so who's right. you or your article that you use to support your views of OMG! CORRUPT POLIZE!

The apology came after the video was released on a wider scale, and the RCMP were flooded with angry calls. See? See how the media works? and when was the video released? Posted on YouTube on JULY 3. when was the incident? July 2 When was the article posted stating that they apologized? July 3rd.

so again where is the article that said "We're [RCMP] not apologizing"

Oh wait, the Sechelt are pissed at the chief and don't actually accept the apology? Oh shit...man, they're playing that video again on the news...people keep calling us...damn, what are we going to do...

These are the demands being made by the Sechelt (http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/pstory.html?id=d8c47bcc-2946-4d30-b8d6-a0adf3fe6574&k=33550), since the 4th...note,the apology came and was accepted on the 5th. It was then rejected and the sit in began on the 10th:
gee one article (http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=f5df13be-64c5-46c6-883b-958018938964&k=51939) states that the apology came on the 3rd.
and your article (http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/pstory.html?id=d8c47bcc-2946-4d30-b8d6-a0adf3fe6574&k=33550) which only mentions a demand for a PUBLIC Apology as well as dropping of charges.

so where does it state that the apology was given on the 5th in your quoted article?

I'm sorry...what are you asking? Do you want to speak to specific terms? If so, list them...your question is very vague.it's not vauge. what is your understanding of the agreement?

If you want, let's focus on the law enforcement and policing structure within the whole agreement.

Neesika

27-07-2007, 21:15

yyyeeesss... I linked to that article. and if you note, the people are angry at the Tribal Chief. and rightly so.

yep. however, do you know the politics and governing system within that tribe? Yes, as a matter of fact. Was there a further question there? The Chief does not get to take unilateral action and close the case.

yet your claim that they never apologized has been shot down. Really? Please show me where I made that claim. I said that nothing happened, even when the tape was first released. The RCMP continued to say they did nothing wrong. And yet, wow, a bit of media coverage and they were recanting and apologising.

and according to their tribal laws, who can call a public inquiry of the RCMP? Huh? ANYONE can ask for a public inquiry. But that doesn't mean anyone is going to get one.

I didn't say it deflects the blame, but what you failed to mention is that the relationship between the RCMP and the tribe isn't as cut and dried as you make it out to be. as far as I'm researching (and still am btw) the agreement between the tribe and RCMP is not as simple as the relationship between Non-Tribal Canadian citizens and the RCMP. What the hell are you on about? Do you have any idea what role the RCMP play in Canada?

Two provinces have provincial police forces. The rest of us do not. Now, in larger municipalities, a local police force is generally created. In small towns, or rural areas where this is not feasible, the RCMP are used. They will usually have a small detachment somewhere central to a county, or even a rotating series of detachments. That coverage requires an agreement with the county, detailing responsibilities of the RCMP, and responsibilities of other county officials such as by-law officers, fish and wildlife and so on.

The SAME sort of set up is used for policing Reserves that can't afford to have a Tribal police force.

So yeah, it's pretty fucking cut and dry. What's your point anyway, going down this dead end?

so they're angry with the chief (and rightly so) but your whole thread here is pissed not at the chief but the RCMP. (and the Cheif has agreed to another election after a 30 day cooling off periord.) Um...have you completely failed to realise that the Chief didn't pepperspray anyone? Why on earth would I be talking about the Chief when it's the actions of the police that sparked this whole thing? The issue with the Chief is ancillary...the fact that you keep focusing on it, with no clear reason, is a little annoying actually. Especially when you can't seem to make a point.

yet your OP article says they did apologise. so who's right. you or your article that you use to support your views of OMG! CORRUPT POLIZE! They apologised. Whoopee shit. People want an inquiry. An apology is not an inquiry.

and when was the video released? Posted on YouTube on JULY 3. when was the incident? July 2 When was the article posted stating that they apologized? July 3rd.
http://homelessnation.org/en/node/5766?PHPSESSID=7195b0e520c9be76e343e69fd60ae275

The apology came on July 5. That is when the official apology was reported. July 3 (http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/story.html?id=5edfc2fe-6de2-4b6c-8c25-02c25a2ae7df) is when the incident actually happened. Not July 2.

July 3: http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=0957bb34-9bd9-484e-b192-ac791bcdb40e&k=62285

The RCMP today defended a police officer's decision to use pepper spray Monday to control a "confrontational" crowd in Sechelt that was celebrating a Vancouver soccer tournament victory by Sechelt band soccer teams

So...as I said, how many times now? Tape was released. No impact, RCMP defend their actions. Then, more media attention, RCMP recant and apologise. Chief accepts. Community gets pissed, reject his acceptance, call for an inquiry.

Anything you are still unclear on? Because you seem to be having a lot of trouble with some very simple concepts here.

so again where is the article that said "We're [RCMP] not apologizing"

gee one article (http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=f5df13be-64c5-46c6-883b-958018938964&k=51939) states that the apology came on the 3rd.
and your article (http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/pstory.html?id=d8c47bcc-2946-4d30-b8d6-a0adf3fe6574&k=33550) which only mentions a demand for a PUBLIC Apology as well as dropping of charges.

so where does it state that the apology was given on the 5th in your quoted article? The apology given on the 3rd, was one police officer saying, sorry we had to to do it, but our actions were right. The OFFICIAL apology came later.

it's not vauge. what is your understanding of the agreement?

If you want, let's focus on the law enforcement and policing structure within the whole agreement.You mean this agreement (http://www.securitepublique.gc.ca/pol/le/fnpp-en.asp)?

What the fuck do you want to know about it...that's the essence of the question I asked last time you brought it up. And what the fuck does it have to do with calling for an inquiry? The agreements are about sharing funds and resources on the Federal, Provincial and Band level.

Here's a point from the general scope of the agreement you should agree with, which is at the heart of the community cry for an inquiry:

First Nations communities should have an effective and appropriate role in directing their policing service. Therefore, First Nations policing services should include police boards, commissions and advisory bodies that are representative of the communities they serve. In addition to police management and accountability, these bodies should ensure police independence from partisan and inappropriate political influences.

So, make a point. You know...shit or get off the pot.

CanuckHeaven

27-07-2007, 23:50

Neesika

28-07-2007, 00:04

Neesika....I do believe that Junii has offered substantial rebuttal to your talking points and has raised some points of his own which you seem to have missed, or tend to shout down with your overly abundant use of profanity.

There was an apology. It was accepted by the Chief.

CanukHeaven, I do believe that you have missed my counter point because my profanity scares you. I will therefore lay it out for you (and JuNii) once again.

Here's the timeline:

The police initially defend their actions.
Media pressure begins.
Later, the same day of the altercation, the police say, 'Well, we're sorry it got to that point, but we did things right." NOT an official apology, and not particularily apologetic.
More media pressure, and the community makes a list of demands, including a call for an external review of the events.
Without consulting the community, the Chief accepts.
The community is furious, and calls for the Chief's resignation, and continues to ask for an external review.

Now, my counterpoint.

JuNii (and you) say...they apologised, the Chief accepted.

While you two might have this idea that the Chief is some 'big head honcho' who gets to speak for the people, you are not quite correct. That is simply NOT how tribal governments work. You do not get to act on something like this without the say so of the community. Period.
THE APOLOGY IS NOT ENOUGH.

Clearly, the community does not feel an apology is enough, especially when that apology came only after the video floated around the national networks for a few days. All this 'they said sorry, and the Sechelt said, ok' is crap. So don't ask me to review his point again. I have, many, many times...and it continues to be as empty as it was at the beginning. One individual's unsanctioned acceptance does not suddenly make the issue go away.

Now your point:

Why did the driver refuse to stop?

Road Injury Prevention (http://www.usroads.com/journals/rilj/9704/ri970402.htm)

Allowing 10 children to ride in the back of a pickup truck is extremely dangerous?

Would simple compliance to the rules have prevented this unfortunate occurrence?

Yes, you're right. When someone does something illegal, police violence is the natural, or at least, somewhat expected outcome.

So when you jaywalk, do you expect to get peppersprayed?

This was a celebration that had been going on for 40 years without mishap. The RCMP detachment was aware of it, as they had been for the previous four decades. Only this year, only this time, did it suddenly become a problem...and one so grievous, apparently, that it warranted losing all modicum of professionally, and indiscriminately firing pepperspray into the eyes of infants, children, adults and elders who were celebrating their victory.

They handled this situation terribly. That SHOULD be reviewed, and openly, so that the community being policed can once again have confidence in the RCMP. That is what the Sechelt are asking for...a review, and some new policies that will ensure that this sort of thing does not happen again. Pretty reasonable, isn't it?

So once again...how is it that a half-assed 'we did the right thing, sorry we sprayed your kids in the face though' apology going to do all that?

Yeah. It's not.

There, few fucking profanities...your sensitive eyes feeling better?

Johnny B Goode

28-07-2007, 01:16

Dude, I gotta get away from the bad cop threads.

CanuckHeaven

28-07-2007, 01:22

CanukHeaven, I do believe that you have missed my counter point because my profanity scares you. I will therefore lay it out for you (and JuNii) once again.
Your profanity does nothing to augment your argument, and in my estimation it weakens it. However, if you feel that it is important then carry on....

Here's the timeline:

The police initially defend their actions.
Media pressure begins.
Later, the same day of the altercation, the police say, 'Well, we're sorry it got to that point, but we did things right." NOT an official apology, and not particularily apologetic.
More media pressure, and the community makes a list of demands, including a call for an external review of the events.
Without consulting the community, the Chief accepts.
The community is furious, and calls for the Chief's resignation, and continues to ask for an external review.

Your timeline is incomplete and it seriously detracts from your argument. You are totally focused on the resolve but totally ignore the cause.

If I was driving a vehicle in a parade, or anytime for that matter, and a police officer motions me to pull over, then I am going to pull over. Had your friend done so in this instance, who knows what would have transpired? Eliminating that part from your argument is a serious flaw.

Now, my counterpoint.

JuNii (and you) say...they apologised, the Chief accepted.

While you two might have this idea that the Chief is some 'big head honcho' who gets to speak for the people, you are not quite correct. That is simply NOT how tribal governments work. You do not get to act on something like this without the say so of the community. Period.
THE APOLOGY IS NOT ENOUGH.

Clearly, the community does not feel an apology is enough, especially when that apology came only after the video floated around the national networks for a few days. All this 'they said sorry, and the Sechelt said, ok' is crap. So don't ask me to review his point again. I have, many, many times...and it continues to be as empty as it was at the beginning. One individual's unsanctioned acceptance does not suddenly make the issue go away.
Your Chiefs do not have the power to speak on behalf of the tribes? Your Chief is just a figurehead?

Perhaps an inquiry may reflect badly on the native people?

Now your point:

Yes, you're right. When someone does something illegal, police violence is the natural, or at least, somewhat expected outcome.
Of course not.

So when you jaywalk, do you expect to get peppersprayed?
This isn't about jaywalking.

This was a celebration that had been going on for 40 years without mishap. The RCMP detachment was aware of it, as they had been for the previous four decades. Only this year, only this time, did it suddenly become a problem...and one so grievous, apparently, that it warranted losing all modicum of professionally, and indiscriminately firing pepperspray into the eyes of infants, children, adults and elders who were celebrating their victory.
You are worried about pepperspray but you cannot even conceive of the possibility of one of those 10 children in the back of the pickup coming into harms way?

American Indian and Alaska Native children (http://www.childrenshospital.org/az/Site1314/printerfriendlypageS1314P0.html)are three times more likely to die in a motor vehicle crash than Caucasian and African-American children........

Pickup trucks, although popular vehicles, may not be as safe as other vehicles for small children. Limited cab space often leads to parents letting their children ride in the cargo area. However, riding in cargo areas increases the risk of dying 10 times when involved in a collision, compared to other types of collisions, according to the US Department of Transportation. Ejection (being thrown out) from the cargo area is the main cause of injury and death for cargo passengers. More than half of the deaths that occur among people riding in pickup truck cargo beds are children and teenagers.

They handled this situation terribly. That SHOULD be reviewed, and openly, so that the community being policed can once again have confidence in the RCMP. That is what the Sechelt are asking for...a review, and some new policies that will ensure that this sort of thing does not happen again. Pretty reasonable, isn't it?
I am all for a review but it appears that you have already decided that the police were entirely at fault for this situation, so given your attitude, it would not appear that you could reasonably accept any verdict that may cast some blame on the natives themselves?

There, few fucking profanities...your sensitive eyes feeling better?
Once again, this isn't about the sensitivities of my eyes. It is about your presumption of a miscarriage of justice, and that juiced words will somehow make your argument so much more coherent and profound?

Neesika

28-07-2007, 02:03

Your profanity does nothing to augment your argument, and in my estimation it weakens it. However, if you feel that it is important then carry on.... Thanks for your permission, I fucking will.

Your timeline is incomplete and it seriously detracts from your argument. GET A GRIP. My argument, which you seem incapable of grasping is this:

WE WANT AN INQUIRY. THE APOLOGY IS NOT ENOUGH.

So no. The timeline does not detract in any way, shape or form from my argument. Hate to so brutally disappoint you.

You are totally focused on the resolve but totally ignore the cause.
This might shock you to know...but in an inquiry, the initial incident will in fact be looked at, as will the ensuing reaction. So, for now? Yeah, I'm focused on the reaction which was what triggered the call for an inquiry in the first place. I'm not the one who is going to be judging police procedures...I'm the one who wants to see an independent body do so.

If I was driving a vehicle in a parade, or anytime for that matter, and a police officer motions me to pull over, then I am going to pull over. Had your friend done so in this instance, who knows what would have transpired? Eliminating that part from your argument is a serious flaw. Yes, who knows what would have happened. I'm not particularily interested. I'm interested rather in what DID happen. Were the reactions of the police out of line? In our eyes, yes...and we want an investigation. Not only that, but community trust in the police force in that area has been seriously damaged, and steps need to be taken to deal with that.

Once again...the entirety of the situation would of course be taken into account. You go ahead and debate that part of it all you want. All I'm interested in is ensuring that this IS investigated. Period.

Your Chiefs do not have the power to speak on behalf of the tribes? Your Chief is just a figurehead? The Chief is the voice of the people. But unlike your system, where your representatives take it upon themselves, with perhaps a minimum of consultation at best to go ahead and make deals or speak for their people, our chiefs need to speak to us FIRST. WE are the ones who give them their marching orders. Our chief is OUR voice...and if what he says is at odds with that voice, then he needs to step down.

Clear? I find it amusing that you have so much difficulty with the concept that just because one politician said, 'hey we accept' that somehow this negates all the raised voices within the community saying, 'FUCK NO'.

Perhaps an inquiry may reflect badly on the native people? Oh no! We might look bad, better not have an inquiry.:rolleyes:

The point of leaving it up to an independent board of review is to keep the slant from either side from tainting the outcome. If we were so worried about us looking bad, you think we'd be yelling this loud for an inquiry?

Let the chips fall where they may.

Of course not.

This isn't about jaywalking. And it isn't about kids standing up in the back of a truck. It's about how the police in that community dealt with community members...and how that process needs to be reviewed, and perhaps revised.

You are worried about pepperspray but you cannot even conceive of the possibility of one of those 10 children in the back of the pickup coming into harms way? Let an independent board of review tell me if the danger to those children merited the police response.

I am all for a review but it appears that you have already decided that the police were entirely at fault for this situation, so given your attitude, it would not appear that you could reasonably accept any verdict that may cast some blame on the natives themselves? "I'm all for a review but blah blah blah".

Inquiries are hard to come by boyo. You have to fight like mad to get them. And they don't just deal with a single incident in isolation, they deal with the underlying issues as well. So when we call for this inquiry, we are asking for a complete review of the policing arrangement, within the context of this incident, and within the wider context.

Come what may, I sincerely doubt that anything but good can come from a review, especially if the RCMP actually take the recommendations to heart. You and JuNii are so busy saying, 'You've judged them already' that you continue to miss the fact that I, and many others are making a claim. That the response was unwarrantd, and out of line. We then ask for someone to make a judgment. Hopefully, it actually happens. During that process, the community WILL be heard. How you think that I would not, in any way, accept that, is beyond ridiculous.

I'm not going to say, 'ah, maybe they did everything just fine'. No. That's your job. Or the job of the people representing the RCMP. This is not a trial, this is not a review. This is a debate forum, and I can bloody well take a side and say, 'Now let's see what a review board has to say'.

You cool with that?

Once again, this isn't about the sensitivities of my eyes. It is about your presumption of a miscarriage of justice, If I didn't think there was a problem...if the people of Sechelt didn't think there was a problem...we wouldn't be asking for an investigation, now would we? So yes, there is a presumption here. That this should be looked into further.

and that juiced words will somehow make your argument so much more coherent and profound?
If my use of the word 'fuck' so totally prevents you from actually reading my points, then really...that's your problem. Your smug, phoney-pacifistic tone doesn't stop me from seeing that you've completely mischaracterised my argument...so surely you can exercise those brain muscles of yours and censor out bad words that distract you?

CanuckHeaven

28-07-2007, 02:55

If my use of the word 'fuck' so totally prevents you from actually reading my points, then really...that's your problem. Your smug, phoney-pacifistic tone doesn't stop me from seeing that you've completely mischaracterised my argument...so surely you can exercise those brain muscles of yours and censor out bad words that distract you?
Soooo.....will you be the spokesperson who will eloquently present the natives' side in any upcoming inquiry? Doubtful. :p

You, brave loud mouth warrior. Me, "smug phoney pacifist". Ugh!!

Personally, I believe that your words here do more harm than good for your people. And I do seriously believe that you should take a good hard look at the reasons why the driver of the truck refused to stop for the policeman.

BTW, the title of this thread is a misnomer.

Mirkai

28-07-2007, 02:59

That's nice. I have. On numerous occasions.

Aaaand justification found for creating thread. You got beat up by the police and now you want to come here and cry.

Less QQ more suesue.

Jello Biafra

28-07-2007, 22:23

Aaaand justification found for creating thread. You got beat up by the police and now you want to come here and cry.

Less QQ more suesue.Does a thread need justification to be created?

Posi

28-07-2007, 22:42

Does a thread need justification to be created?
Flaming people for making a thread is the latest NSG fad. Thankfully, he did something marginally more creative than you run-of-the-mill "Get a blog."

Hickmanhug

29-07-2007, 01:23

Similization

29-07-2007, 01:35

here is an idea...if you don't want to be pepper sprayed, don't do anything that calls the police's attention to you. and if you don't want your child to be pepper sprayed, then don't be one of those nosy people who crowds around when they see something they might be able to gossip about. mind your own business.here is an idea...if you don't want to be pepper sprayed, don't do persecute people to the point their first reaction is a violent one. and if you don't want your child to be pepper sprayed, then don't be one of those authoritarian yes-men who spends their lives sucking ass of any and all authority figures they perceive, no matter how misplaced and unjustifiable. Part of living in a community is taking responsibility for the community, so don't just mind your own business.

On a more serious note: delivering corporeal punishment to the general populace is not job of the police, not even in Canada. Whether or not individuals needs punishment is a matter for the courts, not the police force. Even in Canada. It is not a fascist police state.

Neesika

30-07-2007, 03:02

Soooo.....will you be the spokesperson who will eloquently present the natives' side in any upcoming inquiry? Doubtful. :p Butter wouldn't melt in my mouth baby, when I'm arguing in front of judges, or an arbitration panel, or really anyone with the power to actually address an issue. With you? Bitch, you get my pimp hand.

You, brave loud mouth warrior. Me, "smug phoney pacifist". Ugh!! Oh cute! You're emulating the style of Tonto! Except you didn't start with 'How'. Very clever!

Personally, I believe that your words here do more harm than good for your people. Personally, I could care less what an apologist like yourself feels, since you are entirely ignorant on aboriginal issues in Canada, and seem to find some sort of pride in this fact. There are all kinds of battlefields. The kind of people who are fine with police pepper-spraying children in order to 'protect them', are not the kind of people I expect to stand with me anyway.

And I do seriously believe that you should take a good hard look at the reasons why the driver of the truck refused to stop for the policeman. I have many ideas as to why he refused. And I support many of them. You need to take a good, hard look at why you think that the actions fo the driver makes the resulting actions of the police all okay.

BTW, the title of this thread is a misnomer.Yes, a person of your 'privileged standing' would say so.

Neesika

30-07-2007, 03:03

Aaaand justification found for creating thread. You got beat up by the police and now you want to come here and cry.

Less QQ more suesue.

You really should have pointed to the more obvious and biased reason for my creation of this thread...you know, me being an aboriginal person of Canada.:rolleyes:

CanuckHeaven

30-07-2007, 05:25

Butter wouldn't melt in my mouth baby, when I'm arguing in front of judges, or an arbitration panel, or really anyone with the power to actually address an issue. With you? Bitch, you get my pimp hand.
How ironic that you tried to slap the "phoney" tag on me. You don't seek justice. You seek vengeance. Your attitude and approach only results in more pain and suffering.

Oh cute! You're emulating the style of Tonto! Except you didn't start with 'How'. Very clever!
You are the one presenting this as a cowboy/Indian type of affair. I just simplified it. :p

Personally, I could care less what an apologist like yourself feels, since you are entirely ignorant on aboriginal issues in Canada,
Me an apologist? How do you figure that? I agreed that a review is necessary, but from my perspective, it appears that only you can see one side of this issue. It is you that would prefer to wallow in ignorance.

and seem to find some sort of pride in this fact.
You don't really know me at all when it comes to native issues. You can fantasize all you want.

There are all kinds of battlefields.
True, but it is always advisable to choose careful the battles that you take up, and make sure that when you do go to battle that you send your wisest braves. You certainly wouldn't qualify from the way you have presented your case here.

The kind of people who are fine with police pepper-spraying children in order to 'protect them', are not the kind of people I expect to stand with me anyway.
Moms shouldn't be bringing their children onto the "battlefield"? You totally discount that two police officers were "surrounded by a crowd of increasingly angry natives". What happened after that is a judgment call. The end result is not pretty, but did the officers make the right call? That is where an inquiry would help.

I have many ideas as to why he refused. And I support many of them.
So you support disrespect for the officers trying to do their duty, yet you state that the police "need to respect that community? Respect is a two way street.

You need to take a good, hard look at why you think that the actions fo the driver makes the resulting actions of the police all okay.
You still want to disregard the actions of the driver, which obviously set off some sort of chain reaction. The fact that you "support" the actions of the driver speaks volumes about "your" agenda!!

Yes, a person of your 'privileged standing' would say so.
Okay, I'll bite. Please explain my "privedged standing".

Nodinia

30-07-2007, 09:41

You really should have pointed to the more obvious and biased reason for my creation of this thread...you know, me being an aboriginal person of Canada.:rolleyes:

You're Scottish?

Neo Undelia

30-07-2007, 09:54

Police officers who cause the people to loose faith in the State are worse than the criminals they brutalize.

James_xenoland

30-07-2007, 10:11

I'm just happy that we don't have to worry about groups of soccer mad hoodlums like that, here in the US.... Football FTW!

And yes, I know what the thread's about so don't say it.

Barringtonia

30-07-2007, 10:19

I'm just happy that we don't have to worry about groups of soccer mad hoodlums like that, here in the US.... Football FTW!

Biggest load of rubbish evah (http://sport.guardian.co.uk/americansports/comment/0,10160,1660848,00.html)

Just because you don't call it hooliganism, or admit to the problem, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

To the OP - it's hard not to agree that police don't act on perceptions held, and react to different people in different ways - they're supposed to be trained to overcome this but deeply held ingrained beliefs are hard to overcome in a hostile situation.

An inquiry should be held.

Philosopy

30-07-2007, 10:24

Biggest load of rubbish evah (http://sport.guardian.co.uk/americansports/comment/0,10160,1660848,00.html)

Just because you don't call it hooliganism, or admit to the problem, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

That's a fascinating article. You should start a thread with it, it could be quite an interesting topic.

Just do it later, the forum is always dead at this time of day.

Barringtonia

30-07-2007, 10:40

That's a fascinating article. You should start a thread with it, it could be quite an interesting topic.

Just do it later, the forum is always dead at this time of day.

I grant you the right to start your own thread on this for I am a generous god, not a jealous one.

Nouvelle Wallonochia

30-07-2007, 12:59

Biggest load of rubbish evah (http://sport.guardian.co.uk/americansports/comment/0,10160,1660848,00.html)

I remember a few years back after the Michigan-Ohio State game there was the obligatory rioting in Columbus, Ohio and a few cars were burned. In an Ohio newspaper one of the editorial writers (while decrying the rioting) jokingly quipped that the cars deserved it since they were made in Michigan.

Silliness.

Neesika

30-07-2007, 18:16

How ironic that you tried to slap the "phoney" tag on me. You don't seek justice. You seek vengeance. Your attitude and approach only results in more pain and suffering. I slap the phoney tag on you, for purporting to be the cool head, the respectful tone, the 'honey' rather than the 'vinegar'...despite the fact that you are just as much of an ass as I. I use the 'f' word in my assholery...you don't. That's really the only difference.

I seek an inquiry. Now, unless you have completely lost faith in our judicial system (a stance I can frankly understand, but one I doubt you actually hold), then your claim is false. If I wanted vengeance, I wouldn't be calling for an inquiry, I'd be calling for resignations.

You are the one presenting this as a cowboy/Indian type of affair. I just simplified it. :p Ah yes, because when there are Indians, there must always be cowboys. No, I'm sorry...that's how YOU have presented it. I have presented it as a community who has lost their trust in their police force.

Me an apologist? How do you figure that? I agreed that a review is necessary, but from my perspective, it appears that only you can see one side of this issue. It is you that would prefer to wallow in ignorance. This is the joy of the adversarial system...and I've made this point before, but in all your 'Sinuhue has already judged them', you seem hellbent on ignoring it. If we didn't believe there was wrongdoing on the part of the police, above and beyond whatever wrongdoing of the soccer coach, we wouldn't be asking for an inquiry, n'est pas? If we said, 'hey, both sides are equally at fault', we wouldn't be asking for an inquiry, no es cierto? If we had already judged ourselves capable of making a decision about the guilt or innocence of the police, we'd be calling for resignations, not an inquiry, namoya?

The community wants more than this single incident looked into. Perhaps that is unclear to you. Behind this single incident is a long history, and a desire to have a good working relationship with law enforcement. Right now, the Sechelt, as with so many First Nations, feels instead that what they have is a group of people completely ignorant to the needs and makeup of the community, which regardless of where you live is NEVER a good way to run a police force.

You don't really know me at all when it comes to native issues. You can fantasize all you want. You're right, that was a harsh overgeneralisation. Let me say instead that the majority of non-aboriginal Canadians know absolutely squat about native issues, and that I suspect, since you have never provided any evidence to the contrary, that you are probably similar in your lack of knowledge. You could always prove me wrong, of course, but your total ignorance when it comes to the standing of our Chiefs was a bit tip off.

True, but it is always advisable to choose careful the battles that you take up, and make sure that when you do go to battle that you send your wisest braves. You certainly wouldn't qualify from the way you have presented your case here. Presented my case? You give yourself a very heightened sense of importance. I'm presenting news. I don't give a shit what YOU think about it, and I certainly don't give a shit about any perceived battle you think we have going on here. Who are you? Do you work for INAC? The RCMP? Are you a lawyer? No? Then why on earth do you think I would exert myself to 'present my case' to you?

This isn't the battle, this is the commentary. Completely off the cuff. I'll debate it to a certain extent here, but you certainly aren't worth laying out the whole case for.

Since you finally realised that the whole point of my 'argument' was that an inquiry should be held...you really had nothing left to attack me with except for little digs at 'not being the wisest brave' (god, could you get any more culturally condescending with your imagery? It's fucking hilarious...next you'll be calling me Pocahontas) and yapping about how I just want vengeance etc. Since you really don't have a leg to stand on there, I'm sure you'll just continue with the 'you aren't being nice, stop it!' and stomping your feet in frustration.

Moms shouldn't be bringing their children onto the "battlefield"?Um, you're labelling that a battlefield? A soccer celebration?

Good to see how unbiased YOUR perceptions are, oh wise one. Thank you for pointing out my biases with your own. Excellent lesson in hypocrisy that.

You totally discount that two police officers were "surrounded by a crowd of increasingly angry natives". Ha, no, I suspect the hyped-up version of events as reported by the cops themselves and the media...hyped up versions which started to become more tame as the time went on...soon it wasn't 'the officers were afraid for their safety' so much as it was 'well, we had an inexperienced officer, unfamiliar with the local custom...'.

You go ahead and use the media for your fact source. I think an inquiry is much more prepared to gather ACTUAL facts, thanks. Kind of the whole point, don't you think?

What happened after that is a judgment call. The end result is not pretty, but did the officers make the right call? That is where an inquiry would help. Yes, exactly. End point.

So you support disrespect for the officers trying to do their duty, yet you state that the police "need to respect that community? Respect is a two way street. No, I stated that I have many ideas why he refused to stop, and that I supported many of them. As for 'doing their duty', well now. That's another issue for an inquiry.

You still want to disregard the actions of the driver, which obviously set off some sort of chain reaction. The fact that you "support" the actions of the driver speaks volumes about "your" agenda!! Who cares what my agenda is? Will my 'agenda' colour an inquiry? No. But it just might help get one going. I believe that 'chain reaction' is based in much more than a single event, and that this one event may help get some serious, and much needed dialogue going. To me, the actions of the driver are a drop in the bucket in terms of the situation as a whole...not only THIS particular event, but also the entire framework of policing on reserves.

Look at it this way...when a case comes forth of a hunter who has been charged by Fish and Wildlife for hunting without a license...it's a test case. The actions that precipitated the test case are mostly unimportant. At stake is a much larger question.

So my lack of interest in the initial even, leading to a 'chain reaction' is because I am more interested in the larger questions. Mainly...how should policing be organised, and dealt with on Reserve...are the fairly new tripartite agreements effective? What are their weaknesses, how can they be improved? This kind of event highlights some of those weaknesses, and hopefully, and inquiry will be able to offer recomendations. That is, after all, what in inquiry ultimately does.

Now, I was sort of hoping that JuNii would be able to go down that track, with the tripartite agreements...I was a little excited there, but it didn't seem that he actually had a point in bringing them up, which is rather disappointing. Still, no point in discussing something with someone when they haven't a clue as to what the discussion is about. So unless you want to delve into the tripartite agreements?

Okay, I'll bite. Please explain my "privedged standing".
Sorry kemosabe, me all out of time.

JuNii

30-07-2007, 19:48

Now, I was sort of hoping that JuNii would be able to go down that track, with the tripartite agreements...I was a little excited there, but it didn't seem that he actually had a point in bringing them up, which is rather disappointing. Still, no point in discussing something with someone when they haven't a clue as to what the discussion is about. So unless you want to delve into the tripartite agreements?
actually Neesika, I'm reading it right now, and the fact that the Tripartite Agreement is different for each tribe, and looking for the one specifically for the Schultz tribal band is what's making it difficult.

That's why I haven't responded yet.

Also it's a f-in dry read. one more reason why I ain't a lawyer. :p

Buck Off

31-07-2007, 05:41

And now it comes out that it wasn't the cops who threw the 1st punch, it was one of the Chilean soccer team who started this mess. While the RCMP over-reacted I hope all those who condemned them, granted on this one incident only, are eating a bit of crow.

I don't care where you are, you take a swing at a cop you deserve to get the ***t stomped out of you.

Yes, bad and stupid cops are part of the problem, but so is the lack of respect by ignorant people. Respect works both ways.

JuNii

31-07-2007, 06:00

Neesika

31-07-2007, 06:42

Yes, links would be nice.

And JuNii...I've been trying to get my hands on the Sechelt agreement specifically...it actually seems as though it's sort of still in the works. They've signed an interim agreement, but I haven't been able to get the full text anywhere. If you have any more luck, let me know, and I'll keep looking as well.

Yes...tis dry stuff...but alright, I'll admit I sort of like it :P

CanuckHeaven

31-07-2007, 18:51

I slap the phoney tag on you, for purporting to be the cool head, the respectful tone, the 'honey' rather than the 'vinegar'...despite the fact that you are just as much of an ass as I. I use the 'f' word in my assholery...you don't. That's really the only difference.
I am an "ass" because I would like to investigate the possibility of wrong doing on BOTH sides? The fact that you feel the need to express your views laced with a liberal dose of profanity suggests to me that you cannot or refuse to address the situation in a calm, responsible manner.

I seek an inquiry. Now, unless you have completely lost faith in our judicial system (a stance I can frankly understand, but one I doubt you actually hold), then your claim is false. If I wanted vengeance, I wouldn't be calling for an inquiry, I'd be calling for resignations.
My claim is valid. You don't believe that the natives committed any wrong doing and are looking for blood.

Is it just too 'unCanadian' to reign these cops in?

Why the fuck should something like this be quiet? These are the people, paid and sworn to protect us...abusing their powers.

Ah yes, because when there are Indians, there must always be cowboys. No, I'm sorry...that's how YOU have presented it. I have presented it as a community who has lost their trust in their police force.
Again, I think you are wrong:

So we have to put up with RCMP....culturally ignorant at best, racist fucking pricks at worst.

Cop line is...Indians were hostile, had to spray 'em.

Go watch the link provided for you by another poster. A riot? Get a fucking grip. Community members, coming home from a soccer match, and celebrating, were stopped by cops. They started to arrest one of the men driving a vehicle where it is alleged some teens were standing up in the back of. Community members wanted to know why...and then the cops started pepperspraying like mad.
WOW!! Did we watch the SAME video? :p

And when another poster tried to rebut your talking points, and because he/she didn't necessarily view the "facts" in quite the same manner as you, he/she is somehow an ignorant Fascist?
Your attempt to skew every single link I gave in a fashion totally and utterly inconsistent with the facts laid out, even IN those links is laughable at best. Try reading with less of a goose in your step.

Reinforcing your belief that the natives were totally innocent and that the police felt that this would be a good day for pepper spraying some natives......
Why on earth would I be talking about the Chief when it's the actions of the police that sparked this whole thing?

This is the joy of the adversarial system...and I've made this point before, but in all your 'Sinuhue has already judged them', you seem hellbent on ignoring it. If we didn't believe there was wrongdoing on the part of the police, above and beyond whatever wrongdoing of the soccer coach, we wouldn't be asking for an inquiry, n'est pas? If we said, 'hey, both sides are equally at fault', we wouldn't be asking for an inquiry, no es cierto?
There was obvious wrong doing on the part of some of the natives. Perhaps you choose to wallow in your ignorance?

If we had already judged ourselves capable of making a decision about the guilt or innocence of the police, we'd be calling for resignations, not an inquiry, namoya?
You have already determined that this is a case of "police brutality" and therefore you will be seeking "resignations" through an inquiry?

Spraying pepperspray in the faces of infants, children, adults and elders IS brutality.

The community wants more than this single incident looked into.
Don't you think that it is logical to resolve this single incident first?

Behind this single incident is a long history, and a desire to have a good working relationship with law enforcement. Right now, the Sechelt, as with so many First Nations, feels instead that what they have is a group of people completely ignorant to the needs and makeup of the community, which regardless of where you live is NEVER a good way to run a police force.
Then the people need to make a list of grievances and address them in the appropriate manner?

You're right, that was a harsh overgeneralisation. Let me say instead that the majority of non-aboriginal Canadians know absolutely squat about native issues, and that I suspect, since you have never provided any evidence to the contrary, that you are probably similar in your lack of knowledge. You could always prove me wrong, of course, but your total ignorance when it comes to the standing of our Chiefs was a bit tip off.
A harsh overgeneralization that you wish to promote and extend with your smug judgmental attitude? You know, if you really want to be a spokesperson for your people and effect positive change, then you really should lose the pompous, adversarial, vulgar attitude that you have displayed in this thread. It sure is a turn off to potential and perhaps even existing supporters.

Presented my case? You give yourself a very heightened sense of importance. I'm presenting news.
No, you are presenting YOUR opinion of the news, and you are not doing very good at it.

I don't give a shit what YOU think about it, and I certainly don't give a shit about any perceived battle you think we have going on here. Who are you? Do you work for INAC? The RCMP? Are you a lawyer? No? Then why on earth do you think I would exert myself to 'present my case' to you?
This is a big part of your problem. You don't want to debate this issue....you just want to ram down peoples throats. And if you don't want people to care about YOUR concern, then you are going about it in the right manner.

This isn't the battle, this is the commentary. Completely off the cuff. I'll debate it to a certain extent here, but you certainly aren't worth laying out the whole case for.
I'm not worthy. :p

Since you finally realised that the whole point of my 'argument' was that an inquiry should be held...you really had nothing left to attack me with except for little digs at 'not being the wisest brave' (god, could you get any more culturally condescending with your imagery? It's fucking hilarious...next you'll be calling me Pocahontas) and yapping about how I just want vengeance etc. Since you really don't have a leg to stand on there, I'm sure you'll just continue with the 'you aren't being nice, stop it!' and stomping your feet in frustration.
You really don't understand do you?

Neesika

31-07-2007, 22:09

CanuckHeaven

01-08-2007, 01:30

So like I said...your line is, "Waaa, you aren't being nice, stop it!", whilst stomping your little feet.

I'm not here to win you over precious. And no, you aren't worthy, glad you've at least got that straight. I save my actual effort for the real world. I'm not going to be a sweet-mouthed ghandi to convince you of what you should already be convinced of...that you, yes YOU need to get off your ass and deal with the issues in this country, yourself, without me prodding you...before those issue come home to roost in your backyard.

I don't care if that scares you, or intimidates you, or comes across as vulgar. In the words of Bill Murray...'WHO WANTS FLIES'.

Get your honey somewhere else.
I fully expected such a response. If anyone is being petulant, it would be you. You have demonstrated your anger and hatred thoughout this thread. You want respect but seem to be totally unable to give any. You want to shout down any opposition or criticism. You want to expose the flaws in others without doing an inventory of your own flaws. You deal from a position of extreme weakness, and I doubt that you will achieve the results you desire until you figure that out.

Where I live, we were taught to respect the police, and for the most part, they do a damn fine job. They don't go around busting down doors here unless they have a damn good reason to believe that it is warranted.

If the police are going around busting your doors down for no good reasons, then that is what you need to capture on film and expose their alledged brutality. If they are going around brutalizing your people just so that can get their kicks then by all means their asses need to be nailed.

As far as getting off my ass is concerned, I have had to defend people that I would have preferred not to defend, but I have also told those same people to clean up their act. It is much easier to defend people when their noses are clean and the cause is clearly defined.

The pepper spraying incident is certainly not a pretty sight, but was that result avoidable. I truly believe so.

Until you figure that out, you will stay stuck in your own quagmire. The choice is entirely yours. I pray that you will choose wisely.

Neesika

01-08-2007, 06:50

*stomp stomp* You big meanie, Sinuhue!

Ha...I have to point out, that I really love how you went on about me being a spokesperson for my people. Are you a spokesperson for yours? Who are your people by the way? Just so we, you know, we two spokespersons...can know who we're speaking for :P

Andaras Prime

01-08-2007, 09:11

Police are the lowest form of an individual, they have sold themselves out to the reactionary state, they are legitimate targets.

Similization

01-08-2007, 09:43

You want respect but seem to be totally unable to give any. You want to shout down any opposition or criticism. You want to expose the flaws in others without doing an inventory of your own flaws.Right, so.. The public, independent inquiries Sin wants are.. uh.. completely unfair and biased against the coppers?

Double-think much? :p

Lord Sauron Reborn

01-08-2007, 11:51

CanuckHeaven

01-08-2007, 13:11

Right, so.. The public, independent inquiries Sin wants are.. uh.. completely unfair and biased against the coppers?

Double-think much? :p
Say what?

The job of an inquiry is to examine all the "facts" of a case and make recommendations based on those findings.

I totally support an inquiry in this case and if it does come to fruition, I truly hope that the whole procedure is fair and unbiased to all concerned, and that both parties will go forward with a mutual understanding and with a resolve to improve relations.

Neesika

01-08-2007, 18:32

Um...Sim's point, glaringly obvious and scarily missed is basically what I've been saying all along.

What does my opinion on the matter...matter? We are pushing for an inquiry...and outside, independent look at things. We DO have the option, under the tripartite agreements of just dealing with it within the community, and having officers pushed out...but few if any believe that's the way to go.

So don't cry for me, Argentina...I think these cops were totally out of line...but guess what? I wasn't there. And as I've said before, regardless of the outcome, I do not believe anything but good can result from an inquiry. But inquiries don't just manifest out of thin air. It takes a lot of agitation to get them going. A ridiculous amount, really. So here I am...agitating. Call me Whirpool.

Now back to our regularly scheduled 'how dare Sinuhue raise her voice and be all judgmental and mean and stuff...hardly a credit to her race etc etc etc'.

Similization

01-08-2007, 18:43

I totally support an inquiry in this case and if it does come to fruition, I truly hope that the whole procedure is fair and unbiased to all concerned, and that both parties will go forward with a mutual understanding and with a resolve to improve relations.So.. What exactly were you arguing against? - I may have missed a page somewhere, but Sin's been pretty consistent in her demand for an open, independent inquiry.

- And on my more charitable days, I completely agree with her (and you?). The rest of the time I'm more inclined to think a bit of pig-gutting is needed, but then, where I'm from, they're more likely to try running you over than just beating you up and locking you up for 'resisting arrest'. Fucking coppers...

Neesika

01-08-2007, 19:13

I think Canuk's trying to pull a bit of a Pygmalion...his only objections have been about my profanity, and my meanness in this thread so far.

Well, here's the thing. I think I'm doing quite enough 'tempering', thanks. I'm bloody studying the Canadian legal system, immersing myself wholly in an alien thought process for three years (if you don't count the entire span of my Canadian schooling) in order to 'see the other side of things'. Are you doing that, Canuk? Are you studying with us? It's not MY job to teach you...we are communal, and I am not qualified to be your teacher in the first place...plus, that sort of knowledge doesn't pass freely over the internet...so don't ask me to sweetly school you in our ways.

So if I want to pepper my speech with fuck words, and express my ire, and my frustration with a generations-old problem with law enforcement, I believe I have that fucking right. And you can 'the rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain' with someone else, thanks. I'm MUCH too cool for you to be trying to change.

Neo Undelia

01-08-2007, 19:47

Police are the lowest form of an individual, they have sold themselves out to the reactionary state, they are legitimate targets.

Target of?

In any case, they're the only reason you're able to say stuff like that and not get killed by some hyperactive Nationalist.

CanuckHeaven

01-08-2007, 22:33

I think Canuk's trying to pull a bit of a Pygmalion...his only objections have been about my profanity, and my meanness in this thread so far.
I have voiced many concerns but I imagine that your coolness :p has blocked those out. Perhaps my biggest objection is your choice of thread title.

Well, here's the thing. I think I'm doing quite enough 'tempering', thanks. I'm bloody studying the Canadian legal system, immersing myself wholly in an alien thought process for three years (if you don't count the entire span of my Canadian schooling) in order to 'see the other side of things'. Are you doing that, Canuk? Are you studying with us? It's not MY job to teach you...we are communal, and I am not qualified to be your teacher in the first place...plus, that sort of knowledge doesn't pass freely over the internet...so don't ask me to sweetly school you in our ways.
You've been studying for 3 years? It appears that you still have much to learn about diplomacy. Keep working at it and you may succeed yet.

So if I want to pepper my speech with fuck words, and express my ire, and my frustration with a generations-old problem with law enforcement, I believe I have that fucking right. And you can 'the rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain' with someone else, thanks. I'm MUCH too cool for you to be trying to change.
Will you be passing on your "cool" 4 letter word vocabulary to your children, along with all your anger and hatred?

Yup, you can go ahead and express your "ire and frustration" any way you please, but I think you might find it difficult finding a receptive audience with the way you have presented your case here.

NationStates Jolt Archive

O Canada...where police brutality is a national sport.