NationStates Jolt Archive

From the Mrs Bill Clinton AKA "The Smartest Woman in the History of the Universe" Files

Flip
http://************/39ealy
April 22, 2007
(CBS/AP) DECORAH, Iowa
Hillary Rodham Clinton on Sunday criticized President Bush's foreign policy, and said if she were president she would do things differently, including beginning diplomatic talks with supposed enemies and sending envoys throughout the world.

Flop
http://************/yq2qzh
July 23, 2007
Hillary Clinton pounced on rival Barack Obama on Monday for his willingness to meet with some troublesome world leaders during a Democratic US presidential debate starring a parade of questions posed through YouTube videos.

Makes me wonder just how bad our "talks" with Iran back in May went...:(

1) The two aren't mutually exclusive

2) She's acheived more in her life that you ever will, kthxbye, love Yootopia xx

From the Mrs Bill Clinton AKA "The Smartest Woman in the History of the Universe" Files

Flip
http://************/39ealy
April 22, 2007
(CBS/AP) DECORAH, Iowa
Hillary Rodham Clinton on Sunday criticized President Bush's foreign policy, and said if she were president she would do things differently, including beginning diplomatic talks with supposed enemies and sending envoys throughout the world.

Flop
http://************/yq2qzh
July 23, 2007
Hillary Clinton pounced on rival Barack Obama on Monday for his willingness to meet with some troublesome world leaders during a Democratic US presidential debate starring a parade of questions posed through YouTube videos.
Oh, silly child. IN your flip section, you say "sending envoys throughout the world." In the debate last night, Clinton said "Certainly, we're not going to just have our president meet with Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez and you know, the president of North Korea, Iran and Syria, until we know better what the way forward would be."

You might want to try actually reading your claims before you post them.

Oh, silly child. IN your flip section, you say "sending envoys throughout the world." In the debate last night, Clinton said "Certainly, we're not going to just have our president meet with Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez and you know, the president of North Korea, Iran and Syria, until we know better what the way forward would be."

You might want to try actually reading your claims before you post them.

It's easier to give her a flip/flop for her vote on authorizing the Iraq War.

It's easier to give her a flip/flop for her vote on authorizing the Iraq War.

Weren't you the same person who said in another thread that support for the war when the war was starting doesn't mean you have to continue to support the war now?

Weren't you the same person who said in another thread that support for the war when the war was starting doesn't mean you have to continue to support the war now?

Probably.

1) The two aren't mutually exclusive

2) She's acheived more in her life that you ever will, kthxbye, love Yootopia xxDon't use common sense, it just makes 'em mad [/Waco kid]

I'm still waiting to see all that economic development she promised upstate. It's not like she's a lying bitch or anything, so I know that it is coming any day now.

Weren't you the same person who said in another thread that support for the war when the war was starting doesn't mean you have to continue to support the war now?

Yes. In some cases, I think it's ok to "flip flop".

That means, however, that everyone is free to call it "flip flop".

I think she did it for political reasons, not for any other reason.

Flip flop is too easily bandied about.

*remembers the days when it was a good thing politicians could change their minds on issues when new information arose*

Flip flop is too easily bandied about.

*remembers the days when it was a good thing politicians could change their minds on issues when new information arose*

Well, let's see. New information.

Of the six senators who actually READ the whole intelligence briefing provided by Bush to the Senate, all of them voted AGAINST invading Iraq.

The rest of them, including Hillary, never read it.

So it's kind of hard for her to say, "Bush lied" since she never read the "lie" which managed to convince six others not to vote for the war.

As you say, it's "new information". Maybe she finally read it and changed her mind.

Don't you people get tired of saying the same asinine shit over and over?

Flip flop is too easily bandied about.

*remembers the days when it was a good thing politicians could change their minds on issues when new information arose*

It still is, unless you're a dumbass of monumental proportions.

Yes. In some cases, I think it's ok to "flip flop".

That means, however, that everyone is free to call it "flip flop".

I think she did it for political reasons, not for any other reason.

Lets hope she never get the chance to prove herself or be exposed for what she really is.

Well, let's see. New information.

Of the six senators who actually READ the whole intelligence briefing provided by Bush to the Senate, all of them voted AGAINST invading Iraq.

The rest of them, including Hillary, never read it.

So it's kind of hard for her to say, "Bush lied" since she never read the "lie" which managed to convince six others not to vote for the war.

As you say, it's "new information". Maybe she finally read it and changed her mind.

You're talking specifically about Iraq.

I'm talking about politics in general.

Any hint of a change down the line saying, "gee, maybe I was wrong on that at first", is met with

"FLIP FLOP!

YOU DON'T DESERVE TO BE A POLITICIAN! We want ours to be linear minded sheep who can never, ever, ever, ever change their mind on ANYTHING."

'Cuse me if I don't vote for the sheep.

Don't you people get tired of saying the same asinine shit over and over?

..."NSG: We keep the shit flowing"

It's easier to give her a flip/flop for her vote on authorizing the Iraq War.

She votes to authorize the Iraq war.

Bush, Cheney, Rummy run the war like three retards on the short bus with their hands tied to their balls in what has to be the most moronic planning effort in the history of the United States.

She regrets giving them the authorization to go to war.

Sounds familiar. Sounds like me. I flip-flopped on the war. In December before the war had started I wrote a letter to the Los Angeles Times in support of this president'd rhetoric because I believed the intelligence. I basically said, and still believe, that the only reason UN weapons instpectors were back in Iraq was because US warshipd were amassing of Iraq's coast.

Then he jumps teh gun, doesn't allow the inspectors to finish their jobs, wins the war and then sits and watches as teh country is absolutely gutted by looters in the days after the initial invasion. He watches and guards oil facilities as criminals and terrorists rob the country blind and kill citizens with impunity. He had been told time again by military professionals, including generals, that he would need at least 300,000 troops to secure the country in the aftermath of teh invasion and he fired those people and put yes men in their place.

Then comes Kirkuk. Then comes Abu Gahraib. At that point I had had it and realized that this administration didn't have the competence to run a bicycle much less a war.

Then came the Golden Mosk. Then came...

Just all Hell has broken loose. It doesn't take hindsight to know that this administration failed miserably in planning for a post-Saddam Iraq. Unfortunately, for those of us not ashamed to admit we were bamboozled, I can say that in hindsight this administration shouldn't be in charge of anything, ever - least of all the destruction and rebuilding of a soveirgn country.

I don't blame Hillary for realizing what a mistake it was to ever trust this administration to do anything competently. There not capable of it because they are just plain too stupid.

You're talking specifically about Iraq.

I'm talking about politics in general.

Any hint of a change down the line saying, "gee, maybe I was wrong on that at first", is met with

"FLIP FLOP!

YOU DON'T DESERVE TO BE A POLITICIAN! We want ours to be linear minded sheep who can never, ever, ever, ever change their mind on ANYTHING."

'Cuse me if I don't vote for the sheep.

Maybe we're all confused, because politicians tell us never to change our minds and vote for someone else.

It's always, "vote for me, vote for my party, and forget that other party/person".

When did an inability to back down from a course of action no matter how untenable your position is become a virtue?

Oh, I remember: January 20, 2001.

She is nothing more then a populist. Though i'd take that bitch over Bush anyday.

I don't blame Hillary for realizing what a mistake it was to ever trust this administration to do anything competently. There not capable of it because they are just plain too stupid.

I wouldn't absolve her so readily. I hold out hope that senators have access to more information than us peons and would be better able to judge accurately such a situation.

When did an inability to back down from a course of action no matter how untenable your position is become a virtue?

Oh, I remember: January 20, 2001.

Obviously, at the last Presidential election, voters had the remarkable inability to back down.

Yes. In some cases, I think it's ok to "flip flop".

That means, however, that everyone is free to call it "flip flop".

I think she did it for political reasons, not for any other reason.

A politician doing something for political reasons?!?!?!?!?! Say it isn't so!

Sure you can call it "flip flop" but it's the intent to discredit a person for not following the dogma of damn the torpedoes; full speed ahead mentality that the present administration holds dear. You change your mind about Iraq, you are a flip flopper.

Personally, I want my reps to have the ability to think "oh crap this was a dumb idea" and flip flop on their decision.

I wouldn't absolve her so readily. I hold out hope that senators have access to more information than us peons and would be better able to judge accurately such a situation.

But the fact is that one of the excuses the admin uses when they talk about the fact that there were no WMD is actually true. There was a general consensus in the intelligence community and in the intelligence communities of many other countries that he did, in fact, have those weapons. This does not mean there was unanimous agreement, just that most believed Saddam had some weapons and an active program to procure more. The CIA report after the war concluded that even Saddam probably believed he posessed these weapons because his underlings, for fear of being killed, lied to him.

None of this, of course, excuses the administration from allowing the UN to do its job, something myself and most in Congress assumed it would allow before invading, but, well, there you have it. If Bush had just waited a few months we would have found out that no such weapons existed and much less violent methods could have been used to remove him from power. Methods the iraqis, emboldened by the fact that they now knew that Saddam was a paper tiger and had US warships massing off his coast, could have taken themselves. Methods that would have left the civil structure in tact. methods that wouldn't have involved disbanding the police force or the mail men or the parking police or the electric and gas companies or the corner grocery store, or the...

Yeah we could of found out if he'd given it more time. The argument could be made however that the inspectors had 12 years to find out if Saddam was playing ball or not and he obstructed them the whole time. A few more months may not of produced results.

Of the six senators who actually READ the whole intelligence briefing provided by Bush to the Senate, all of them voted AGAINST invading Iraq.Source?

EDIT: But for a few chance references, I'm having some difficulty locating a complete list of the senators who read the document. Does anyone have their names to check against the vote? Alternatively, I'll take a reputable source that confirms that all six voted against the resolution, with or without names.

Biden supposedly read it, yet he voted for the resolution.

Incidentally, in the interest of accuracy let us recall that the legislature never voted on "invading Iraq." They voted, instead, on a resolution authorizing the use of force against Iraq, which they were led to believe was necessary to give teeth to aggressive diplomacy.

It still sucks that so many voted for it. Yes, it still sucks that so few took the extraordinary effort to read the intelligence report--and remember that this was not made easy for them. Unlike most documents they read as part of their jobs, it was not made available to their staff and because of its classified nature it was kept in a secure building on the other end of town where it is not allowed to take notes.

I'm not making excuses for anyone. But I do think we need a little perspective here.

Yeah we could of found out if he'd given it more time. The argument could be made however that the inspectors had 12 years to find out if Saddam was playing ball or not and he obstructed them the whole time. A few more months may not of produced results.

That was prior to the 9/11 world. After that day it wasn't just us that was interested in seeing what he had under his hood and the threat level to him was unprecedented in a decade. He allowed the inspectors back in after four years because he knew we weren't fucking around anymore.

That was prior to the 9/11 world. After that day it wasn't just us that was interested in seeing what he had under his hood and the threat level to him was unprecedented in a decade. He allowed the inspectors back in after four years because he knew we weren't fucking around anymore.

I don't know about that. I think he was playing with us. We had a helluva case saying there were WMD. We sold them to him.

From the Mrs Bill Clinton AKA "The Smartest Woman in the History of the Universe" Files

Flip
http://************/39ealy
April 22, 2007
(CBS/AP) DECORAH, Iowa
Hillary Rodham Clinton on Sunday criticized President Bush's foreign policy, and said if she were president she would do things differently, including beginning diplomatic talks with supposed enemies and sending envoys throughout the world.

Flop
http://************/yq2qzh
July 23, 2007
Hillary Clinton pounced on rival Barack Obama on Monday for his willingness to meet with some troublesome world leaders during a Democratic US presidential debate starring a parade of questions posed through YouTube videos.
How is that a flip flop? She (Clinton) would send envoys to "begin diplomatic talks". He (Obama) would be "willing to meet with some troublesome world leaders"

Huge difference?

I don't know about that. I think he was playing with us. We had a helluva case saying there were WMD. We sold them to him.

These weapons don't last forever. What we had sold him in the 80's were long gone. He would have had to make more.

Also, and I know it is hard to remember this, but post 9/11 the world was on our side. Many countries believed that they may be next, and as a matter in fact many were, and they looked to the US for leadership. they had silent vigils outside of our embassies and they built memorials to the victims. Bush proved remarkably adept at destroying that sentiment and turning into a hatred for the US, but at one time after 9/11 the world was actually with us, they were just cooler headed and smarter than the retard in the Oval Office so they weren't all gung-ho about attacking Iraq - but they did want to know what was going on in Iraq.

Also remember that they guy who was president was the son of the guy who bombed him to Hell last time. Saddam wasn't going to pull the tiger's tail again. The story is he sent a midnight hour's offer to allow inspectors even into the imperial palaces but Bush wasn't interested.

Let's see now.....

Reaganodia has 118 posts since 2002 and yet has started 28 threads. Debate much?

I was quite amused with the thread where you labelled the Democrats as the "Treason Party (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12601801&postcount=66)".

We sold them to him.Are you referring to the chemical and biological weapons with predictable and long-past expiration dates?

These weapons don't last forever. What we had sold him in the 80's were long gone. He would have had to make more.Aha!

Beat me to it. ;)

If she wins the Democratic nomination, she'll make John Kerry look like a brick wall. She will do anything to get her and her husband back in the White House, because she craves power above all else.

How is that a flip flop? She (Clinton) would send envoys to "begin diplomatic talks". He (Obama) would be "willing to meet with some troublesome world leaders"

Huge difference?No, and it's really low of the Obama campaign to assume that the public is not intelligent enough to appreciate the distinction.

You know the whole flip/flop argument is really appealing only to the unthinking. Only a stupid person doesn't change his/her mind when the details change. Would we really want a president who started off in a direction and was too ignorant to change his/her mind when the conditions changed?

OOPS! I think I just insulted 50% of the people that voted in the last election.

Source?

EDIT: But for a few chance references, I'm having some difficulty locating a complete list of the senators who read the document. Does anyone have their names to check against the vote? Alternatively, I'll take a reputable source that confirms that all six voted against the resolution, with or without names.

Biden supposedly read it, yet he voted for the resolution.

Incidentally, in the interest of accuracy let us recall that the legislature never voted on "invading Iraq." They voted, instead, on a resolution authorizing the use of force against Iraq, which they were led to believe was necessary to give teeth to aggressive diplomacy.

It still sucks that so many voted for it. Yes, it still sucks that so few took the extraordinary effort to read the intelligence report--and remember that this was not made easy for them. Unlike most documents they read as part of their jobs, it was not made available to their staff and because of its classified nature it was kept in a secure building on the other end of town where it is not allowed to take notes.

I'm not making excuses for anyone. But I do think we need a little perspective here.

The Six are referenced in numerous locations, and all agree that Biden did read it (and he has claimed the same). His vote is, of course, on the record.

http://www.drudge.com/news/95226/only-6-senators-read-nie-before-vote

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/few-senators-read-iraq-nie-report-2007-06-19.html

You won't get an official list for the simple reason that it is classified:
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/05/25/204032.aspx

If she wins the Democratic nomination, she'll make John Kerry look like a brick wall. She will do anything to get her and her husband back in the White House, because she craves power above all else.

Calm down stereotypical republican troll. You musn't give yourself a heart attack while denouncing the ebil hilary impire.

The Six are referenced in numerous locations, and all agree that Biden did read it (and he has claimed the same). His vote is, of course, on the record.Thanks. This is essentially what I thought, though I couldn't find a comprehensive list ready-to-hand.

The point for the moment is that RO was, as usual, pulling things out of his ass.

For the record, of the six senators who read the intelligence report, three (Biden, Roberts, Rockefeller) voted for the resolution and three (Durbin, Graham, Leahy) voted against.

I just like to get the facts straight. ;)

Aha!

Beat me to it. ;)

I did read somewhere that we found a few, though few in number and, like you said, already far past their expiration date... probably making them more harmful as IEDs.

That said, I would still be nervous about the capabilities of even an expired, military-grade nerve toxin.

I did read somewhere that we found a few, though few in number and, like you said, already far past their expiration date... probably making them more harmful as IEDs.

That said, I would still be nervous about the capabilities of even an expired, military-grade nerve toxin.

As I remember it they did chemical analysis of empty containers and found parts per million or billion. Which means the chemicals were probably destroyed and someone forgot to put the container in the fire.

Saddam's mistake was he believed that the US wouldn't go to war without evidence so he destroyed everything but continued to bluff Iran.

Saddam's mistake was he believed that the US wouldn't go to war without evidence so he destroyed everything but continued to bluff Iran.

And if we'd had a C in C who wasn't a bloodthirsty fucknut, we wouldn't have.