NationStates Jolt Archive

My friend watched one of those libertarian anti-federal reserve videos and now wants to buy gold and spend only gold. He says everyone loves gold and will accept it as payment. I said no one will accept it because they can't really cash it into the bank. I also said the FBI (or Secret Service) would be up his rear within two weeks, regardless of whether the gold is genuine or not. Also the amount of gold needed for everyday stuff is small. One gram of gold is $22 currently and is about 1/20 mL in volume.

My question: If you are in a job where you take in physical money (cashier, waiter,...), what would you do if someone handed you a chunk of gold as payment?

Exactly, one good sneeze and there goes next week's lunch money. :p

cashiers cant take non-money as payment. same as if someone plunked down a diamond as payment for a bar tab. only the owner can decide to take something else as payment.

your friend is nutz. no one wants to deal with gold as payment for anything. mostly for the reasons you have already mentioned. its too hard for a regular person to judge purity, to judge the accuracy of payment, to give change.

if i want gold. ill buy it with money and hold it for a hedge against future inflation. i have no interest in using it to pay bills with.

SA, your friend hasn't really got the point of that video (I think I know the one you mean.)

"Returning to the gold standard" means the government which issues currency has to hold an equal value in gold, and regulate the banking industry by requiring banks to issue gold in exchange for cash at a fixed rate.

Heard of "Pounds Sterling"? A Pound was once redeemable for a physical pound of silver. Gold and silver standards are history. Period.

If your friend is a real "keep it under the bed" survivalist paranoid type, they might want to buy some gold and bury it somewhere. Using it to buy stuff with, when there is a working currency, is stupid and impractical. Even if someone will take it, they're going to demand a surcharge to have it assayed. He'll also have to carry around certificates to prove the gold is his.

There's also jewellery I guess. The gold it's made of should keep its value, and he'd have a pretty bauble in the meantime.

Your friend doesn't seem to realize that currency developed because people didn't like dealing in gold.

find a single store that will accept gold as payment. I dare you.

There was a rumour being circulated 'round these parts a few years back about how part of the PNAC's intent to overtake Islam territory had to do with a dispute over credit versus the gold standard ... possibly one of Mike "Savage" Weiners' blowhard musings ... is that factoring in anywhere?

There was a rumour being circulated 'round these parts a few years back about how part of the PNAC's intent to overtake Islam territory had to do with a dispute over credit versus the gold standard ... possibly one of Mike "Savage" Weiners' blowhard musings ... is that factoring in anywhere?
People try really, really hard to reinterpret what PNAC said to mean some sort of giant conspiracy. Sure, oil for example might be the reason that some people and company supported PNAC causes...but as hard as that might be to face for some, the actual hardcore neocons don't have any ulterior motives: it's all about their ideology. They want to spread democracy by all means necessary because they see it as the guarantee for world peace and they believe they're the only ones who can do it and by extension that it is their duty.

So no, Iraq wasn't about oil, it wasn't about dollar vs euro denominations, it wasn't about the gold standard. It was about ideology and a few personal grudges.

People try really, really hard to reinterpret what PNAC said to mean some sort of giant conspiracy. Sure, oil for example might be the reason that some people and company supported PNAC causes...but as hard as that might be to face for some, the actual hardcore neocons don't have any ulterior motives: it's all about their ideology. They want to spread democracy by all means necessary because they see it as the guarantee for world peace and they believe they're the only ones who can do it and by extension that it is their duty.

So no, Iraq wasn't about oil, it wasn't about dollar vs euro denominations, it wasn't about the gold standard. It was about ideology and a few personal grudges.I think you're trying hard with your own interpretation yourself, and you're likely to run into a lot of resistance regarding the semi-singularity of PNAC's nature.
Walkslikeatalkslikealookslikea .... but since you're likely to get more than enough argument from everyone else, you don't think there's been rightwing (which unfortunately often translates through libertarian) scuttlebutt helping along part of that attitude?
I think i've heard it myself, and even participated in conversations about it here, as i'd intimated.

...but since you're likely to get more than enough argument from everyone else, you don't think there's been rightwing (which unfortunately often translates through libertarian) scuttlebutt helping along part of that attitude?
Well, the type of libertarian that seriously wants the gold standard to come back usually isn't too keen on democracy either. If you're not going to accept paper money as a representation of actual value that exists on nothing but the general understanding among everyone to accept it as tender, the chances that you see democracy as anything other than mob rule over the individual and a way for politicians to exploit others for personal gain is fairly small.

If there is one thing the neocons value above all else it's democracy. Not freedom, because socially they're usually quite conservative and many who list themselves among neocons aren't necessarily opposed to a bit of protectionism and state-supported corporations (especially in resources and defence). And that's the scary thing because most of us value democracy and see it as a really great way of organising society. Most of us would think "well, we have to do something" if we look at places like North Korea or Darfur.

So there's a bit of neocon in most of us. I freely admit that there's a large helping of it in me. The difference might be that the actual neocons more often than not grew up in the Trotskyist left, which carries with it a mindset that tends to lower your threshold for interventionism and wanting to radically change the world.

Your friend doesn't seem to realize that currency developed because people didn't like dealing in gold.

Actually it had something to do with the Great Depression, which might actually have been caused by the Federal Reserve. Either way, currency was once backed by gold and no longer is.

find a single store that will accept gold as payment. I dare you.

I said something similar to him.

Well, the type of libertarian that seriously wants the gold standard to come back usually isn't too keen on democracy either. If you're not going to accept paper money as a representation of actual value that exists on nothing but the general understanding among everyone to accept it as tender, the chances that you see democracy as anything other than mob rule over the individual and a way for politicians to exploit others for personal gain is fairly small.

If there is one thing the neocons value above all else it's democracy. Not freedom, because socially they're usually quite conservative and many who list themselves among neocons aren't necessarily opposed to a bit of protectionism and state-supported corporations (especially in resources and defence). And that's the scary thing because most of us value democracy and see it as a really great way of organising society. Most of us would think "well, we have to do something" if we look at places like North Korea or Darfur.

So there's a bit of neocon in most of us. I freely admit that there's a large helping of it in me. The difference might be that the actual neocons more often than not grew up in the Trotskyist left, which carries with it a mindset that tends to lower your threshold for interventionism and wanting to radically change the world.

1. Actually, Democracy hasn't really helped save those countries.
2. I'm a socialist and support returning the gold standard and do not like democracy. I hate libertarians.

Paper money is lightweight, convenient, and easily exchanged and processed. I'll take that over a heavy lump of metal any day.

I've always wanted to own a large brick of gold for some reason.

I have no idea what I'd do with it. Use it as a paper weight I suspect. But it seems like such a cool thing to own.

Paper money is lightweight, convenient, and easily exchanged and processed. I'll take that over a heavy lump of metal any day.

That's fine, but I still think it should have gold ro silver somewhere that it can be redeemed for, at least in theory.

Having a gold standard is really stupid, as the only reason gold has most of its value is because people think it should.

Having a gold standard is really stupid, as the only reason gold has most of its value is because people think it should.

Making it no different than a fiat currency. It's just an extra, pointless step for morons who can't grasp the abstract.

Making it no different than a fiat currency. It's just an extra, pointless step for morons who can't grasp the abstract.

You're still around? :headbang:

People try really, really hard to reinterpret what PNAC said to mean some sort of giant conspiracy.

yeah, its a big enough conspiracy in just what they've openly stated. but everybody knows that a conspiracy aint going nowhere until the lizard people get in on it...

You're still around?

No, it just appears so, Einstein.

Making it no different than a fiat currency. It's just an extra, pointless step for morons who can't grasp the abstract.

It's supposed to be anti-inflationary.

It's supposed to be anti-inflationary.

Sound government finances, coupled with a labour market where salary augmentation is kept at a moderate level and a shrewd central bank with a sensible interest rate policy are as well.

Sound government finances, coupled with a labour market where salary augmentation is kept at a moderate level and a shrewd central bank with a sensible interest rate policy are as well.

So you can see the attraction for people who live in the US then.

So you can see the attraction for people who live in the US then.

They have in their short history shown themselves to have a knack for wishing to regress instead of progress, that is true.

I think a lot of people would accept gold as payment. Anyone who spends gold is probably quite the fool and a fool and his money (whether in bullion form or paper) are quickly parted. Another problem is the whole concept of change.

For example, assuming a bullion 2007 $5 gold coin has a value of about $55. If you give someone a 4% gold coin for something with a price of $3.75. you probably will not get $51.25 in change. Instead you will likely only get $1.25 in circulation money.

My friend watched one of those libertarian anti-federal reserve videos and now wants to buy gold and spend only gold. He says everyone loves gold and will accept it as payment. I said no one will accept it because they can't really cash it into the bank. I also said the FBI (or Secret Service) would be up his rear within two weeks, regardless of whether the gold is genuine or not. Also the amount of gold needed for everyday stuff is small. One gram of gold is $22 currently and is about 1/20 mL in volume.

My question: If you are in a job where you take in physical money (cashier, waiter,...), what would you do if someone handed you a chunk of gold as payment?

I'd ask him how much money he wanted for it, explaining that I would not give him more than 100 dollars an ounce, because it's a commodity not a currency, and that's my offer.

Sound government finances, coupled with a labour market where salary augmentation is kept at a moderate level and a shrewd central bank with a sensible interest rate policy are as well.

Hell will freeze over before that happens in any government..

I'll stick with paper currency. The US dollar is the new gold standard anyway.

A bar of gold does have the advantage that if someone tries to take it from you, you can whack him over the head with it.

Personally, I'd accept the gold as payment and make up the difference out of my pay check.

Federal Reserve Notes aren't worth the 3 cents it costs to print them. The only reason why people still believe that they are valuable is because they erroneously believe that the Counterfeiter of Last Resort will stop inflating.

Even members of the Council on Foreign Relations now admit that the collapse of government central banking cartels and their replacement by private gold banks is inevitable.

I'd prefer to have some money that is actually valuable.

In the long run, the bills will come due, so enjoy it while it lasts.

Gold is a useful substance to use as a monetary standard, for the following reasons:

1. It's relatively rare (but not so rare as to be unobtainable) and requires a fair amount of capital investment and effort to extract from the ground.

2. It looks nice and is generally valued by everyone, but has no practical uses other than jewelry (although it is used in a couple of medicines and for a niche chemical research market).

3. It is chemically inert - it doesn't tarnish in corrosive atmospheres (unlike silver, which turns black quite easily if there's any sulphur dioxide in the air from industrial pollution). In fact, it barely reacts with anything. You can even sit a lump of gold in aqua regia (concentrated nitric and sulphuric acid mixture) and it will sit there and laugh at you. This is why it's called a "noble metal".

The drawbacks of course are that it is rather heavy, so carrying it around is a bit of a pain, and since it's so dense, it's tricky to have small denominations. Of course, it has been used literally as currency in the form of gold coinage, but each one was worth rather a lot so it's not terribly practical.

This is of course why we have paper money - it's easier to carry around and you can make any denomination you want just by putting different labels on it. Of course you have to have some coinage to make small denominations - having ten pence notes would be silly. But then again, you can get a 5000 Euro note which is equally silly.

The gold standard is a good idea in principle because it reinforces the value of currency and gives everyone the confidence that their money is actually worth something tangible. It also makes it a lot harder for the currency to be devalued (either deliberately by a central bank or by force due to speculative attacks), further adding to the stability of the economy.

Yes, I know it's history, and would probably take an act of god to reinstate, but it's still a good idea.

Gold is a useful substance to use as a monetary standard, for the following reasons:

1. It's relatively rare (but not so rare as to be unobtainable) and requires a fair amount of capital investment and effort to extract from the ground.

2. It looks nice and is generally valued by everyone, but has no practical uses other than jewelry (although it is used in a couple of medicines and for a niche chemical research market).

3. It is chemically inert - it doesn't tarnish in corrosive atmospheres (unlike silver, which turns black quite easily if there's any sulphur dioxide in the air from industrial pollution). In fact, it barely reacts with anything. You can even sit a lump of gold in aqua regia (concentrated nitric and sulphuric acid mixture) and it will sit there and laugh at you. This is why it's called a "noble metal".

The drawbacks of course are that it is rather heavy, so carrying it around is a bit of a pain, and since it's so dense, it's tricky to have small denominations. Of course, it has been used literally as currency in the form of gold coinage, but each one was worth rather a lot so it's not terribly practical.

This is of course why we have paper money - it's easier to carry around and you can make any denomination you want just by putting different labels on it. Of course you have to have some coinage to make small denominations - having ten pence notes would be silly. But then again, you can get a 5000 Euro note which is equally silly.

The gold standard is a good idea in principle because it reinforces the value of currency and gives everyone the confidence that their money is actually worth something tangible. It also makes it a lot harder for the currency to be devalued (either deliberately by a central bank or by force due to speculative attacks), further adding to the stability of the economy.

Yes, I know it's history, and would probably take an act of god to reinstate, but it's still a good idea.
Gold still only has value because we agree it does. No different than paper money. Same with diamonds, roses, etc.

I'll stick with paper currency. The US dollar is the new gold standard anyway.

A bar of gold does have the advantage that if someone tries to take it from you, you can whack him over the head with it.

lol ;)

Gold is a useful substance to use as a monetary standard, for the following reasons:

1. It's relatively rare (but not so rare as to be unobtainable) and requires a fair amount of capital investment and effort to extract from the ground.

2. It looks nice and is generally valued by everyone, but has no practical uses other than jewelry (although it is used in a couple of medicines and for a niche chemical research market).

3. It is chemically inert - it doesn't tarnish in corrosive atmospheres (unlike silver, which turns black quite easily if there's any sulphur dioxide in the air from industrial pollution). In fact, it barely reacts with anything. You can even sit a lump of gold in aqua regia (concentrated nitric and sulphuric acid mixture) and it will sit there and laugh at you. This is why it's called a "noble metal".

The drawbacks of course are that it is rather heavy, so carrying it around is a bit of a pain, and since it's so dense, it's tricky to have small denominations. Of course, it has been used literally as currency in the form of gold coinage, but each one was worth rather a lot so it's not terribly practical.

This is of course why we have paper money - it's easier to carry around and you can make any denomination you want just by putting different labels on it. Of course you have to have some coinage to make small denominations - having ten pence notes would be silly. But then again, you can get a 5000 Euro note which is equally silly.

The gold standard is a good idea in principle because it reinforces the value of currency and gives everyone the confidence that their money is actually worth something tangible. It also makes it a lot harder for the currency to be devalued (either deliberately by a central bank or by force due to speculative attacks), further adding to the stability of the economy.

Yes, I know it's history, and would probably take an act of god to reinstate, but it's still a good idea.

All true, but it might come back.

Gold still only has value because we agree it does. No different than paper money. Same with diamonds, roses, etc.

No, there is a difference. Gold is rare and limited, not to mention pretty, paper money is effectively unlimited and can just be made. Also, it's usually not pretty like gold is instinctively.

I read or heard somewhere that the amount of gold needed to buy the dress for an ancient Roman senator (tunic, toga, belt, sandals) is the same as that needed for a modern US Senator (suit, belt, and shoes). Talk about stability.