NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070723/pl_nm/usa_immigration_idcards_dc;_ylt=AlwA8KL4MMvq2sV5R9amx0zMWM0F

Apparently Connecticut is offering an ID card to all people in the state including... illegal aliens! They are trying to make it safer for everyone by allowing illegal aliens access to the ID card that would let the muse banks and other institutions to cut down on robberies of illegal aliens with cash on them.

Of course all the rightwing, anti-alien groups in the country are being douchebags about it and are saying "If they do this, illegal aliens will flock to Connecticut to get an ID card!" Of course they are saying this while going around distributing fliers urging illegal immigrants to move to Connecticutt to prove the rightwing, anti-alien douchebag groups right.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070723/pl_nm/usa_immigration_idcards_dc;_ylt=AlwA8KL4MMvq2sV5R9amx0zMWM0F

Apparently Connecticut is offering an ID card to all people in the state including... illegal aliens! They are trying to make it safer for everyone by allowing illegal aliens access to the ID card that would let the muse banks and other institutions to cut down on robberies of illegal aliens with cash on them.

Of course all the rightwing, anti-alien groups in the country are being douchebags about it and are saying "If they do this, illegal aliens will flock to Connecticut to get an ID card!" Of course they are saying this while going around distributing fliers urging illegal immigrants to move to Connecticutt to prove the rightwing, anti-alien douchebag groups right.

As long as they can't use them as ID to vote, that's fine with me.

Or to board aircraft...

As long as they can't use them as ID to vote, that's fine with me.

Or to board aircraft...

Nativist much?

Nativist much?

I thought the term nativism was only applied to those who had an issue with those who had legally immigrated as well as those who had done so illegally

Oh no, a couple of people that got drivers licenses hijacked a plane? Wasn't it assumed that they were here legally? Maybe we shouldn't let anyone with a drivers license on a plane! Background checks for everyone!

Nativist much?

No. It's the law that you have to be a US Citizen to vote.

Currently, the only "proof" people provide is registering to vote, usually using their driver's license (a document issued by their home state) to vote.

The Federal government is the only issuer of IDs that can verify your citizenship.

I think there should be a Federal voting ID. It would cut down on vote fraud if implemented correctly.

And, Virginia (my state) issued driver's licenses to some of the 911 hijackers. It would seem that if a state issued ID is enough to get on a plane, then perhaps we shouldn't issue them to undocumented aliens.

No. It's the law that you have to be a US Citizen to vote.

Currently, the only "proof" people provide is registering to vote, usually using their driver's license (a document issued by their home state) to vote.

The Federal government is the only issuer of IDs that can verify your citizenship.

I think there should be a Federal voting ID. It would cut down on vote fraud if implemented correctly.

And, Virginia (my state) issued driver's licenses to some of the 911 hijackers. It would seem that if a state issued ID is enough to get on a plane, then perhaps we shouldn't issue them to undocumented aliens.

You came off as "OMG teh eb1l t3rror1stz 1magrents gun hijack our planez!"

I thought the term nativism was only applied to those who had an issue with those who had legally immigrated as well as those who had done so illegally

It is, until illegal immigration is involved. Then everyone that is for immigration controls is nativist and usually racist as well.

You came off as "OMG teh eb1l t3rror1stz 1magrents gun hijack our planez!"

Sorry, it's the truth. Why else do you think that now, in Virginia, in order to get a state-issued ID, you have to show your birth certificate or US passport?

Sorry, it's the truth. Why else do you think that now, in Virginia, in order to get a state-issued ID, you have to show your birth certificate or US passport?

I don't have a problem with your opposition to the program: it's a bad idea, period. I was offended by the automatic assumption that all those immigrants are gonna flock to Connecticut to get ID cards to hijack our planes.

It is, until illegal immigration is involved. Then everyone that is for immigration controls is nativist and usually racist as well.

If my use of nativism is correct then it always involves illegal immigration. Very confusing. It's nativist to say that illegal immigrants shouldn't be allowed to vote?

I was offended by the automatic assumption that all those immigrants are gonna flock to Connecticut to get ID cards to hijack our planes.
You would be hard pressed to find a statement more absurd by anyone whose job isn't to make absurd statements about illegal immigrants.

If my use of nativism is correct then it always involves illegal immigration. Very confusing. It's nativist to say that illegal immigrants shouldn't be allowed to vote?

I think my attempt at humour fell flat...seems to happen often.

My point that accusations of nativism and racism are commonly thrown around whenever illegal immigrants enter the debate, whether they're accurate or not.

I don't have a problem with your opposition to the program: it's a bad idea, period. I was offended by the automatic assumption that all those immigrants are gonna flock to Connecticut to get ID cards to hijack our planes.

No, my assumption is that terrorists want to obtain a valid ID so they can gain access to things like bank accounts and plane tickets.

While the program may be innocuous, and designed to help illegal immigrants who have no intention to be terrorists, what safeguards would you put in place to make sure these are not issued to terrorists?

I think there should be a national ID card. Just like most other Western nations.

No, my assumption is that terrorists want to obtain a valid ID so they can gain access to things like bank accounts and plane tickets.
Because when I think of "access to bank account" I think "buy a plane ticket."


I think there should be a national ID card. Just like most other Western nations.
I think the government of the US should put safeguards in place to prevent the gathering of personal information about people and its sale to other companies like most other Western nations. I think the US should adopt a universal healthcare system like more other Western nations. But I don't see either of those happening, do you?

If my use of nativism is correct then it always involves illegal immigration. Very confusing. It's nativist to say that illegal immigrants shouldn't be allowed to vote?

It's the law that only US citizens should be allowed to vote.

I'm more of a law and order person than a "nativist".

For instance, I think the solution to immigration is to make it easier to become a US Citizen.

You should have to apply, with documents. These should be checked against a database of criminals/terrorists. After a successful check, a photo, fingerprints, and a DNA sample.

Then a loyalty oath, and you're in. No different from the current oath.

How is that nativist?

Of course, this ruins the market for cheap ass labor - you'll have to pay these people the minimum wage, instead of 50 cents an hour...

I think my attempt at humour fell flat...seems to happen often.

My point that accusations of nativism and racism are commonly thrown around whenever illegal immigrants enter the debate, whether they're accurate or not.

Ah I suspected as much :) Apologies

Because when I think of "access to bank account" I think "buy a plane ticket."


Well then what is the issue with making it unusable in a plane travel setting?

No, my assumption is that terrorists want to obtain a valid ID so they can gain access to things like bank accounts and plane tickets.

While the program may be innocuous, and designed to help illegal immigrants who have no intention to be terrorists, what safeguards would you put in place to make sure these are not issued to terrorists?

I think there should be a national ID card. Just like most other Western nations.

It seemed like you lumped in voting with getting on a plane.

I don't know what safeguards you can put in. Unless you limit the uses of the card, I can;t think of anything feasible.

A national ID card flies in the face of states righters, minimalist govermentalists, and big brother fearing libertarians. Average Americans would see it as too much an extension of the evil federal government.

Then a loyalty oath, and you're in. No different from the current oath.


I wasn't really accusing you of nativism. Just a misunderstanding with Telesha.

I've never really understood the need for an oath. It seems the equivalent of the checks at airline check-in asking you if you're carrying any dangerous items

It's the law that only US citizens should be allowed to vote.

I'm more of a law and order person than a "nativist".
I wasn't aware there was a law saying only US citizens were allowed to open bank accounts and buy airline tickets in the US. That might pose a problem to foreign tourism....

These should be checked against a database of criminals/terrorists.
Because that is working out so well for the airline industry...

I thought the term nativism was only applied to those who had an issue with those who had legally immigrated as well as those who had done so illegally

It was an opinion on RO's mention of boarding a plane. Fear of t3eh eb1l t3rror1stz 1magrents bombing our planes.

It seemed like you lumped in voting with getting on a plane.

I don't know what safeguards you can put in. Unless you limit the uses of the card, I can;t think of anything feasible.

A national ID card flies in the face of states righters, minimalist govermentalists, and big brother fearing libertarians. Average Americans would see it as too much an extension of the evil federal government.

I think if we made it a smart card, and keyed it to multiple biometrics (fingerprint, DNA, retinal scan), and used it to replace the Social Security number... you could sell it saying you'll make identity theft next to impossible...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070723/pl_nm/usa_immigration_idcards_dc;_ylt=AlwA8KL4MMvq2sV5R9amx0zMWM0F

Apparently Connecticut is offering an ID card to all people in the state including... illegal aliens! They are trying to make it safer for everyone by allowing illegal aliens access to the ID card that would let the muse banks and other institutions to cut down on robberies of illegal aliens with cash on them.

Of course all the rightwing, anti-alien groups in the country are being douchebags about it and are saying "If they do this, illegal aliens will flock to Connecticut to get an ID card!" Of course they are saying this while going around distributing fliers urging illegal immigrants to move to Connecticutt to prove the rightwing, anti-alien douchebag groups right.

IDs to criminals? What would CT do next? This is stupid and the legislature of the state of CT needs to stop this lunacy. Illegal Aliens do not deserve ID cards. They deserve to be deported.

I think if we made it a smart card, and keyed it to multiple biometrics (fingerprint, DNA, retinal scan), and used it to replace the Social Security number... you could sell it saying you'll make identity theft next to impossible...

Fearmongering: The American Way. (tm) :p

Every time whitey bitches about foreigners taking over their country a Native American gets his wings.

Every time whitey bitches about foreigners taking over their country a Native American gets his wings.

:rolleyes:

Every time whitey bitches about foreigners taking over their country a Native American gets his wings.

Is whitey not considered a slur?

Got to read up on my american slang terms

Fearmongering: The American Way. (tm) :p

I want to be the contractor that provides the cards and the database. Making money is the American Way.

Is whitey not considered a slur?

The Jeffersons destroyed the seriousness of any anti-white slur.

Voila, yet another step towards a police state.
An ID card does not a police state make. However, using the terrorism bogeyman to get it going is really a good way to make it look like it does.

I think if we made it a smart card, and keyed it to multiple biometrics (fingerprint, DNA, retinal scan), and used it to replace the Social Security number... you could sell it saying you'll make identity theft next to impossible...

Sure, you do that, and I'll give up my citizenship, unless I need it to take part in the revolution.

There is no fucking way I am giving all that information to the federal government.

This applies to the UK as well. No national ID cards, of any sort, ever.

First we get the cards - 'To cut down on identity fraud'
Then we get asked to carry them - 'To ease identification' You might start a reward program for it.
Then it becomes the law - 'To protect you from terrorism'

Voila, yet another step towards a police state.

An ID card does not a police state make. However, using the terrorism bogeyman to get it going is really a good way to make it look like it does.

It's easier to use the "identity theft" boogeyman.

It's easier to use the "identity theft" boogeyman.
Not in Europe where identity theft isn't even as remotely prominent as it is here due to the governments' restrictions on sharing of personal information between companies and the information required to be handed over. You can identify yourself without making yourself open to dangerous identity theft. The US has lax information sharing rules, if any, and forces people to use their Social Security Number to identify themselves - the very foundation of all information about the person.

Not in Europe where identity theft isn't even as remotely prominent as it is here due to the governments' restrictions on sharing of personal information between companies and the information required to be handed over. You can identify yourself without making yourself open to dangerous identity theft. The US has lax information sharing rules, if any, and forces people to use their Social Security Number to identify themselves - the very foundation of all information about the person.

It would work here. I'm sure if you cast it as a way to "encapsulate" the Social Security Number in a secure transaction, people would flock to it in the US.

As to the Europeans, the UK and now Spain are all about CCTV as a means to "prevent crime". Not sure how other Europeans would buy that one, but most of them already have a national identity card (Germany springs to mind).

There's always a boogeyman, and he doesn't have to be Osama.

An ID card does not a police state make. However, using the terrorism bogeyman to get it going is really a good way to make it look like it does.

I draw your attention to the third step, which made it compulsory to carry. I'll admit it isn't worded as clearly as it could be, however.

I'm also a UK citizen, and if they bring in a national ID card I'll drop that one. Especially if it's compulsory.

It would work here. I'm sure if you cast it as a way to "encapsulate" the Social Security Number in a secure transaction, people would flock to it in the US.

As to the Europeans, the UK and now Spain are all about CCTV as a means to "prevent crime". Not sure how other Europeans would buy that one, but most of them already have a national identity card (Germany springs to mind).

There's always a boogeyman, and he doesn't have to be Osama.

Maybe my key point was missed, but it must not work, it must not ever work, and the government must never even be allowed to entertain the idea. That's my opinion on the thing. If state legislature wants to issue a voluntary piece of identification, that's fine, I'll even support giving that to illegal immigrants. But if the national government legislates an ID card, I'll be first in line for the revolution.

I'm also a UK citizen, and if they bring in a national ID card I'll drop that one. Especially if it's compulsory.

I lived in London for six months.

I couldn't go ANYWHERE except in my apartment without being on camera.

If I walked out the front door of the apartment into the hallway - on camera.

Outside the building - anywhere I went in London - on one or more cameras.

At the place of work - on camera, even in the offices.

It was fucking unbelievable. You already live in a police state.

I lived in London for six months.

I couldn't go ANYWHERE except in my apartment without being on camera.

If I walked out the front door of the apartment into the hallway - on camera.

Outside the building - anywhere I went in London - on one or more cameras.

At the place of work - on camera, even in the offices.

It was fucking unbelievable. You already live in a police state.

I know. I never said I supported that, did I? Unfortunately, the big media scare just a bit back was gun crime (three shootings in two weeks or something like that), and then there's terrorism, and the general public is perfectly willing to give up that right.

However, I'll admit it feels less oppressive than having to carry ID cards. To quote our German friends: "Die papieren, bitte?" (Darnit, haven't studied any German in several years. Someone correct my spelling please).

I know. I never said I supported that, did I? Unfortunately, the big media scare just a bit back was gun crime (three shootings in two weeks or something like that), and then there's terrorism, and the general public is perfectly willing to give up that right.

However, I'll admit it feels less oppressive than having to carry ID cards. To quote our German friends: "Die papieren, bitte?" (Darnit, haven't studied any German in several years. Someone correct my spelling please).

Well, I think all of these things take place over time. There in the UK, at the turn of the century (1900), it was commonplace for people to own and carry firearms. Now, through cultural changes and laws, there's no more ownership of firearms, and yet you still have gun crime. So they put the cameras in and yet you still have gun crime.

Any government will put in more restrictions, and still the crime (or terrorism) will not stop.

The restrictions are not intended to stop criminals in any real sense. They are to enforce compliance amongst those who would be sheep in the first place.

I want to be the contractor that provides the cards and the database. Making money is the American Way.

A capitalist will sell you the rope by which he is to be hanged.

I know. I never said I supported that, did I? Unfortunately, the big media scare just a bit back was gun crime (three shootings in two weeks or something like that), and then there's terrorism, and the general public is perfectly willing to give up that right.

That's a gun scare? Living near Philadelphia has warped my definition of news. There's about three shootings every two days in Philly. People are shot every day.

It's actually worse than Camden, the hellhole on the upswing across the river.

That's a gun scare? Living near Philadelphia has warped my definition of news. There's about three shootings every two days in Philly. People are shot every day.

Most notably in South Philadelphia.

Illinois tried something like that recently too. Something about issuing drivers licences / state IDs to people who had no forms of identification whatsoever

I forget if they passed that or not... it might have run into the budget nonsense of how they're giving themselves raises but can't come up with a budget for anything else... government is fun

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/homepage/20070605_Phila__leads_big_cities_in_murder_rate.html

Dammit, I could not find that. I hate the Inquirer. Thanks.

That's a gun scare? Living near Philadelphia has warped my definition of news. There's about three shootings every two days in Philly. People are shot every day.

It's actually worse than Camden, the hellhole on the upswing across the river.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/homepage/20070605_Phila__leads_big_cities_in_murder_rate.html

That's a gun scare? Living near Philadelphia has warped my definition of news. There's about three shootings every two days in Philly. People are shot every day.

It's actually worse than Camden, the hellhole on the upswing across the river.

I know, that was my comment.

But that's a UK style gun scare - gangs of teenage delinquents, one of whom might have an unreliable piece of crud that's liable to blow up in his hand.

I know, that was my comment.

But that's a UK style gun scare - gangs of teenage delinquents, one of whom might have an unreliable piece of crud that's liable to blow up in his hand.

While some may indeed be carrying improvised "firearms", such as a screwdriver or piece of pipe altered to fire a single round, we have this tidbit:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/02/24/nguns24.xml

If you can't stop the illegal importation of drugs, you're never going to stop the illegal importation of firearms. Never.

You came off as "OMG teh eb1l t3rror1stz 1magrents gun hijack our planez!"

I disagree with RO on almost everything, but fuck that if you think illegal immigrants should be able to vote.

I disagree with RO on almost everything, but fuck that if you think illegal immigrants should be able to vote.

Of course not. Citizens only, that's constitutional.

It seemed like you lumped in voting with getting on a plane.

I don't know what safeguards you can put in. Unless you limit the uses of the card, I can;t think of anything feasible.

A national ID card flies in the face of states righters, minimalist govermentalists, and big brother fearing libertarians. Average Americans would see it as too much an extension of the evil federal government.

We already have a Federal ID card only it's called a "Social Security" card. All it would take is upgrading it to a photo ID - I recognize that that wouldn't be cheap, but somehow I think we could pull it off.

It's the law that only US citizens should be allowed to vote.

I'm more of a law and order person than a "nativist".

For instance, I think the solution to immigration is to make it easier to become a US Citizen.

You should have to apply, with documents. These should be checked against a database of criminals/terrorists. After a successful check, a photo, fingerprints, and a DNA sample.

Then a loyalty oath, and you're in. No different from the current oath.

How is that nativist?

Of course, this ruins the market for cheap ass labor - you'll have to pay these people the minimum wage, instead of 50 cents an hour...

DNA sample is a little extreme...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070723/pl_nm/usa_immigration_idcards_dc;_ylt=AlwA8KL4MMvq2sV5R9amx0zMWM0F

Apparently Connecticut is offering an ID card to all people in the state including... illegal aliens! They are trying to make it safer for everyone by allowing illegal aliens access to the ID card that would let the muse banks and other institutions to cut down on robberies of illegal aliens with cash on them.

Of course all the rightwing, anti-alien groups in the country are being douchebags about it and are saying "If they do this, illegal aliens will flock to Connecticut to get an ID card!" Of course they are saying this while going around distributing fliers urging illegal immigrants to move to Connecticutt to prove the rightwing, anti-alien douchebag groups right.

First off, this is only one city/town in CT (New Haven). It's also a municipal ID card (for New Haven residents). Finally, it's Southern Connecticut Citizens for Immigration Reform saying, "If they do this, illegal aliens will flock to Connecticut to get an ID card!", while the North Carolina-based Americans for Legal Immigration PAC (different organization in a different state) is the one urging illegals to move to CT.

It is, until illegal immigration is involved. Then everyone that is for immigration controls is nativist and usually racist as well.

Bullshit! I am all for letting people immigrate here legally (in fact, I think the immigration requirements should be lessened so that more people can immigrate legally), but there has to be some control (I wouldn't want the foreign equivilant of Charles Manson to be allowed in, for example). Also, I think there should be a crackdown on illegal immigration, so that we can allow more people here legally.

but there has to be some control (I wouldn't want the foreign equivilant of Charles Manson to be allowed in, for example).
And how do you propose we stop that? Give everyone psych checks? Ask them if they are the head of a cult or a mass murderer?

If my use of nativism is correct then it always involves illegal immigration. Very confusing. It's nativist to say that illegal immigrants shouldn't be allowed to vote?

No it isn't. It would be nativist to say that only people born here in the US could vote.

Every time whitey bitches about foreigners taking over their country a Native American gets his wings.

I'm white, my parents were born here in the US, and so was I. Therefore, I'm a native American. Where the hell are MY wings?!?











:D

We already have a Federal ID card only it's called a "Social Security" card. All it would take is upgrading it to a photo ID - I recognize that that wouldn't be cheap, but somehow I think we could pull it off.

I'd settle for a laminated Social Security card. Mine's about to fall apart, and I really don't want to get another.

Although, an ingraved metal Social Security card would be cool too. Make mine titanium. :D

And how do you propose we stop that? Give everyone psych checks? Ask them if they are the head of a cult or a mass murderer?

Inquiring with the applicant's home country's law enforcement would be a start. Also, checking with Interpol and the FBI should help. Some criminals would slip through the checks, but hopefully the more dangerous ones wouldn't.

Inquiring with the applicant's home country's law enforcement would be a start. Also, checking with Interpol and the FBI should help. Some criminals would slip through the checks, but hopefully the more dangerous ones wouldn't.

We could also try a series of questions with the occasional trick question throw in:

"Where were you born?" Honduras.

"What is your occupation?" Porn fluffer.

"Do you prefer to kill people in the morning or evening?" Morni... wait..! Shit!

"AHA!!!"

Bullshit! I am all for letting people immigrate here legally (in fact, I think the immigration requirements should be lessened so that more people can immigrate legally), but there has to be some control (I wouldn't want the foreign equivilant of Charles Manson to be allowed in, for example). Also, I think there should be a crackdown on illegal immigration, so that we can allow more people here legally.

:rolleyes: Please read the whole thread before commenting. This was not more than a few posts down:

I think my attempt at humour fell flat...seems to happen often.

My point that accusations of nativism and racism are commonly thrown around whenever illegal immigrants enter the debate, whether they're accurate or not.

:rolleyes: Please read the whole thread before commenting. This was not more than a few posts down:

I missed that post. :(

Sorry.

I missed that post. :(

Sorry.

No worries, my humour seems to fall flat more often than not.

And I'm sorry for my rather caustic response. I'm finishing my 10th hour of work and my fuse is about this ____ long.