NationStates Jolt Archive

You know, I try to be tolerant of everyone's religious belief, mainly because I really really don't care what you believe in as long as you don't force your religion or belief system on me, and vice versa. However, I am critical of Scientology, mainly because of it's criminal activities starting with the founder of L Ron Hubbard and the fact that anyone who enters into the "church" and then leaves become a target for Scientologist to attack and on and on. Anyways, I'm just wondering if me being critical of Scientology while tolerating other religion is hypocritical.

Scientology is not a religion. It's a cult.

You're not a hypocrite.

The difference betwixt "religion" and "cult" is a matter of numbers and nomenclature, really.

I don't speak Spanish.

Scientology is not a religion. It's a cult.

You're not a hypocrite.
The difference betwixt "religion" and "cult" is a matter of numbers and nomenclature, really.

I'd say your suspicion of scientology is pretty well-founded from all I've heard of their 'ministry.' They seem to require a high degree of isolation from others outside their faith, and have been linked to some criminal activity. They seem to want absolute control of information about their organization, as opposed to most mainstream religions, which freely distribute their literature and will usually let you sit in on a meeting or service.

Everyone is a hypocrite.

How bad is it that when I first saythe thread title I say "Am I a Hippogiff(I know my spelling's off)?"

You know, I try to be tolerant of everyone's religious belief, mainly because I really really don't care what you believe in as long as you don't force your religion or belief system on me, and vice versa. However, I am critical of Scientology, mainly because of it's criminal activities starting with the founder of L Ron Hubbard and the fact that anyone who enters into the "church" and then leaves become a target for Scientologist to attack and on and on. Anyways, I'm just wondering if me being critical of Scientology while tolerating other religion is hypocritical.

Well, I'd say you just listed why you are not a hypocrite. Sounds like you couldn't care less what they do or don't believe, much like you do with all other religions, but what does bug you is the fact that the so-called church is officially involved in a lot of criminal activities. Nothing to do with not respecting their faith, just to do with not respecting their actions.

Using your intelligence is not hypocritical.

Using your intelligence is not hypocritical.

It is if you are against using your intelligence.

It is if you are against using your intelligence.

Using your intelligence is elitism.

I don't get why people are so scared of Scientology.Yeah they're a freaky cult but all they do is con a load of rich people out of their money by telling them life on earth was seeded by an evil alien named X-emu. And if you're that rich and stupid enough to believe them you deserve all you get!

I don't get why people are so scared of Scientology.Yeah they're a freaky cult but all they do is con a load of rich people out of their money by telling them life on earth was seeded by an evil alien named X-emu. And if you're that rich and stupid enough to believe them you deserve all you get!

An evil large X-bird seeded life on Earth? *Runs for checkbook.*

Because they want to kill off everyone whos a doctor or scicolagist; thats why. It's a hate crime issue.

I don't get why people are so scared of Scientology.Yeah they're a freaky cult but all they do is con a load of rich people out of their money by telling them life on earth was seeded by an evil alien named X-emu. And if you're that rich and stupid enough to believe them you deserve all you get!

I don't have any problems with what they believe. I do have a problem with their actions, though, especially if they're of a criminal nature. Which they more often than not seem to be.

I met a Scientology once they were offering "Free Stress Tests" in the street, this guy was pestering me all the way down the street as I was going to the bank so I just flashed my payslip at him. He just looked at me with complete disgust, the moral of the story is they're harmless if your not rolling in it.

lets have some logic here:

Tom cruise = Scientologist, correct?

and

Tom cruise = Stupid, correct?

Stupid beleives stupid

Tom cruise beleive scientology...

therefore, our conclusion is that scientology is stupid.

lets have some logic here:

Tom cruise = Scientologist, correct?

and

Tom cruise = Stupid, correct?

Stupid beleives stupid

Tom cruise beleive scientology...

therefore, our conclusion is that scientology is stupid.

You forget;

Tom cruise = Scientology, correct?

and

Tom cruise = Rich, correct?

Rich people are like sheep

Tom cruise beleive scientology...

therefore, our conclusion is that scientology is cult for the rich.

The problem with dumb rich people being coned is that generaly dumb rich people run things..........

The problem with dumb rich people being coned is that generaly dumb rich people run things..........

Incorrect. Smart rich people run things. They just put the dumb rich people into political office, where they can do the least harm. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilbert_Principle) After all, if political office actually had any power to do anything useful or positive, it would be abolished and/or expressly illegal. (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Emma_Goldman)

Thus, the last eight years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush). The Idiot In Chief takes all the blame, and the smart rich folks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military-industrial_complex) roll around in the dough.

I met a Scientology once they were offering "Free Stress Tests" in the street, this guy was pestering me all the way down the street as I was going to the bank so I just flashed my payslip at him. He just looked at me with complete disgust, the moral of the story is they're harmless if your not rolling in it.

Yeah, they do this in London, or at least they used when I lived there - it wasn't Free Stress Test back then, I remember it as I.Q. test but that doesn't sound right - more like something to do with stability of personality.

Anyway, the point is they...ah, I remember, 'Emotional Welfare Test'...seek to exploit those people who are insecure because the test results always indicate that you're emotionally lacking, in need of sustenance in the form of Scientology, which will balance your life out.

This is what I hate about most of these, including some forms of church advertising, which, much like all advertising, first posits that you lack something and that you will only be fulfilled by whatever they're selling.

...and that's what they're doing, they have a product and they're selling it.

You know, I try to be tolerant of everyone's religious belief, mainly because I really really don't care what you believe in as long as you don't force your religion or belief system on me, and vice versa. However, I am critical of Scientology, mainly because of it's criminal activities starting with the founder of L Ron Hubbard and the fact that anyone who enters into the "church" and then leaves become a target for Scientologist to attack and on and on. Anyways, I'm just wondering if me being critical of Scientology while tolerating other religion is hypocritical.

We're all hypocrites.

And Scientology is pretty vicious.

Isn't it somehow funny that there seem to be more asexuals on this forum than scientologists?

Isn't it somehow funny that there seem to be more asexuals on this forum than scientologists?

I'm ascientologist

We're all hypocrites in one way or another.

But in this particular case, you're not a hypocrite. Scientology is just a scam.

I went to a Scientology exibit in Amsterdam once (for the free food). I didn't know I'd have to walk through the entire fucking museum before they gave me something to munch on. I got through half of it before they started talking about space and planets and my spiritual self. When I ran I had to physically shove three people out of my way. One lady was standing in front of the door asking me why I didn't want free food.

I was so stoned and so scared.


They're crazy.

I went to a Scientology exibit in Amsterdam once (for the free food). I didn't know I'd have to walk through the entire fucking museum before they gave me something to munch on. I got through half of it before they started talking about space and planets and my spiritual self. When I ran I had to physically shove three people out of my way. One lady was standing in front of the door asking me why I didn't want free food.

I was so stoned and so scared.


They're crazy.

See, if you were a scientologist you'd have been able to spiritually shove those people out of your way.

I feel sorry for the lady at the door, why wouldn't anyone want free food - when stoned people are running away from free food you just know something's not right with the picture.

EDIT: Thinking about it for more than 1 second - that's great marketing, how do you get people through the door in Amsterdam? Provide free food - genius, reminds me of the Cookie Dude episode from Friends. I'd almost imagine they put the museum in Amsterdam just to take advantage of that.

See, if you were a scientologist you'd have been able to spiritually shove those people out of your way.

I feel sorry for the lady at the door, why wouldn't anyone want free food - when stoned people are running away from free food you just know something's not right with the picture.

Space is too big for a mind on Jamaican Red Hair.

Scientology isn't even a real religion. It doesn't have a proper belief system in a higher power, the control their members and try to scare those who speak out against them (google "operation freakout" for more information).

Space is too big for a mind on Jamaican Red Hair.

This sentence makes no sense, yet makes complete sense - it's a quantum quote

Click me (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hxqR5NPhtLI)

Everyone shoud do this to the silly Scientologists until they understand. :)

Click me (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hxqR5NPhtLI)

Everyone shoud do this to the silly Scientologists until they understand. :)

That was wholly incomprehensible.

Someone care to translate?

I don't think you are

That was wholly incomprehensible.
Someone care to translate?
You are not supposed to understand. This is the footage from Scientologist camera. Watch this:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dwTDvfjcUJU&mode=related&search=
It's absolutely creepy. In a nutshell, BBC reporter was making a documentary in Scientology run town. Scientologists tried to prevent him from talking to anyone condemning their cult so during his stay he was day after day spied on, followed and pestered by them until he lost it. To answer the OP: you are not, Scientology is not a religion, it's a scam AND IT SHOULD BE DESTROYED.

You are not supposed to understand. This is the footage from Scientologist camera. Watch this:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dwTDvfjcUJU&mode=related&search=
It's absolutely creepy. In a nutshell, BBC reporter was making a documentary in Scientology run town. Scientologists tried to prevent him from talking to anyone condemning their cult so during his stay he was day after day spied on, followed and pestered by them until he lost it. To answer the OP: you are not, Scientology is not a religion, it's a scam AND IT SHOULD BE DESTROYED.

Okay, now it makes sense. Thanks!

you are not so much a hypocrit as someone who is over reacting to the anti-hype surrounding scientology.

there are dozens of cults that are equally abusive to their members that you care nothing about because you dont hear about them.

It is not hypocritical to support freedom of religion and then suggest that one, some, or all of them are bad. If you support the freedom of religion, that just means you want to let people choose their own religion, be it one you think is good, okay, or bad. If you supported freedom of religion, but also banning Scientology, then you would be a hypocrite. As long as you support Scientology's right to exist, you are not being hypocritical.

you are not so much a hypocrit as someone who is over reacting to the anti-hype surrounding scientology.

there are dozens of cults that are equally abusive to their members that you care nothing about because you dont hear about them.

Yeah, it's hard to overreact to organizations that put live rattlesnakes in the mailboxes of people who try to leave.

If you supported freedom of religion, but also banning Scientology, then you would be a hypocrite. As long as you support Scientology's right to exist, you are not being hypocritical.
I'm all for religious freedom but Scientology is not a religion. It has no right to portray itself as such. It's a scam society designed to assimilate the weak, strip them of their posessions and enslave them. While it can be argued that certain sects and even religions might work in similar ways, the Scientology was made to make money. I don't think the elite members of this "church" believe the bullshit they pass as truth (but only after brainwashing you to accept anything):
"Once upon a time (75 million years ago to be more precise) there was an alien galactic ruler named Xenu. Xenu was in charge of all the planets in this part of the galaxy including our own planet Earth, except in those days it was called Teegeeack."*
http://www.xenu.net/archive/leaflet/xenuleaf.htm
You can call me hypocrite. But if you believe Scientology is religion, I call you naive.
*Yes I know it's not their wording.

I'm all for religious freedom but Scientology is not a religion. It has no right to portray itself as such. It's a scam society designed to assimilate the weak, strip them of their posessions and enslave them. While it can be argued that certain sects and even religions might work in similar ways, the Scientology was made to make money. I don't think the elite of this "church" believe the bullshit they pass as truth (but only after brainwashing you to accept anything):
"Once upon a time (75 million years ago to be more precise) there was an alien galactic ruler named Xenu. Xenu was in charge of all the planets in this part of the galaxy including our own planet Earth, except in those days it was called Teegeeack."
http://www.xenu.net/archive/leaflet/xenuleaf.htm
You can call me hypocrite. But if you believe Scientology is religion, I call you naive.

Well, some posters here find any other religious backstory just as ludicrous. And, it may be argued that some churches are in it for the money.

However, I believe the line should be drawn elsewhere. Does that church tell you to stop talking to your non-believing friends and family?

If so, that's a cult, not a religion. Does it tell all its members to immediately give all their time, money, etc., to the "church"? If so, it's a cult, not a religion.

Well, some posters here find any other religious backstory just as ludicrous. And, it may be argued that some churches are in it for the money.

However, I believe the line should be drawn elsewhere. Does that church tell you to stop talking to your non-believing friends and family?

If so, that's a cult, not a religion. Does it tell all its members to immediately give all their time, money, etc., to the "church"? If so, it's a cult, not a religion.

Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.

1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".

9. The group/leader is always right.

10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

http://www.rickross.com/warningsigns.html

Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.

1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".

9. The group/leader is always right.

10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

http://www.rickross.com/warningsigns.html

Wait for people to apply those to the major religions

You know, I try to be tolerant of everyone's religious belief, mainly because I really really don't care what you believe in as long as you don't force your religion or belief system on me, and vice versa. However, I am critical of Scientology, mainly because of it's criminal activities starting with the founder of L Ron Hubbard and the fact that anyone who enters into the "church" and then leaves become a target for Scientologist to attack and on and on. Anyways, I'm just wondering if me being critical of Scientology while tolerating other religion is hypocritical.

No because firstly Scientology isn't a religion.

However, assuming it is a religion, there is only one church. So unless you think, for example, that the early European papacy was world renowned for respecting human rights, and think positively about every religious church that has ever existed, you are not a hypocrite.

I am sure they can. I read through it and was like "Catholic" LOL

Damn you read my mind :p

Wait for people to apply those to the major religions

I am sure they can. I read through it and was like "Catholic" LOL

Wait for people to apply those to the major religions

Well, let's check my church...

1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

Well, we elect a board of deacons every year... and they nominate a pastor, whom we also elect. We can toss him at any time.

2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

No, not us. We have plenty of questions and critical inquiry, especially during Bible study.

3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

We're a Virginia Corporation, with an independently audited financial statement. Anyone can see the books at any time, and there is quarterly financial reporting to the congregation.

4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

Nope we're not about Armageddon, or the End Times, or anything like that.

5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

People leave. We've often held parties at the church for people who left. Some left to found their own churches because they didn't like ours anymore - and we still had a good party.

6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

So far, no stories of abuse or grievances.

7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

So far, none of that.

8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".

We tell everyone that everyone is immediately welcome - that God thought everyone was "good enough" for him to die on the cross for them.

9. The group/leader is always right.

Nope. Like I said, we elect him, and we know he's not God.

10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

Nope, we just hire him to do sermons and stuff.

Yeah, it's hard to overreact to organizations that put live rattlesnakes in the mailboxes of people who try to leave.

rather mild compared to the cults that have you kill yourself so you can all join the mothership together.

rather mild compared to the cults that have you kill yourself so you can all join the mothership together.

Or Kill you because you tried to leave or seek real help from a non-Scientology source.

The case of Lisa McPherson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_McPherson)

Or Kill you because you tried to leave or seek real help from a non-Scientology source.

The case of Lisa McPherson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_McPherson)

Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Judge Frank Quesada concluded:[9]
“ Lisa McPherson refused psychiatric observation or admission at the hospital; she expressly stated her desire to receive the religious care and assistance from her fellow congregants that she and they wanted her to have."

Not that Scientologists are saints in the matter but your post isn't completely accurate

Or Kill you because you tried to leave or seek real help from a non-Scientology source.

The case of Lisa McPherson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_McPherson)

did you read my original post?

you are not so much a hypocrit as someone who is over reacting to the anti-hype surrounding scientology.

there are dozens of cults that are equally abusive to their members that you care nothing about because you dont hear about them.

my point isnt that scientology is innocent, its that its not the worst cult out there.

you focus on scientology because it gets all the publicity.

and its much worse to drag all your followers to guyana then have them all drink poison when someone from the US starts investigating.

did you read my original post?

my point isnt that scientology is innocent, its that its not the worst cult out there.

you focus on scientology because it gets all the publicity.

and its much worse to drag all your followers to guyana then have them all drink poison when someone from the US starts investigating.

Actually it is the worst, at least the most problematic for outsiders. Unlike other cults where the members are usually only around a couple of hundred, Scientology has millions of brainwashed followers, who are very secretive and intrude on many other innocent peoples lives. They are the only cult to have done any infiltration of government, and they have also committed the most intense infiltration of US government of all time.

Being critical of Scinetology and tolerating it are not mutually exclusive.

Actually it is the worst, at least the most problematic for outsiders. Unlike other cults where the members are usually only around a couple of hundred, Scientology has millions of brainwashed followers, who are very secretive and intrude on many other innocent peoples lives. They are the only cult to have done any infiltration of government, and they have also committed the most intense infiltration of US government of all time.

oh no not irrelevant INFILTRATION of the us govt!

its still not my point that something else is much worse. my point is that there are plenty of cults out there. "infiltrating the government" is not worse than mass murder.

my point is that there are plenty of cults out there. "infiltrating the government" is not worse than mass murder.
But it's like saying that there are plenty of bacteria out there, inflaming the brain tissue is not worse than sepsis. Still doesn't mean we shall tolerate filth because there's many flavors to it.

oh no not irrelevant INFILTRATION of the us govt!

its still not my point that something else is much worse.

But these cults last a year or two then die out, it doesn't cause any problems on a world wide scale. They are irrelevant, and will always pop up from time to time, it's in humanities nature to have some groups be manipulated into suicide. And who says Wilgrove doesn't equally despise them? But there is no reason he should pay much attention to them as they are so small, with little info on them and affects only a minimal amount of lives.

Edit: whoops got gravelen and wilgrove mixed up ;)

Information on Operation Snow White (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White)

But it's like saying that there are plenty of bacteria out there, inflaming the brain tissue is not worse than sepsis. Still doesn't mean we shall tolerate filth because there's many flavors to it.

we should allow people freedom of religion as long as that religion stays within the laws of the country its in.

but i was responding to the TOPIC which is "is wilgrove a hypocrit?"

and my answer was NO but that he is only paying attention to scientology because it gets all the press. if he were really concerned about cults, there are plenty of cults just as bad (mostly in different ways) that he could also hate on.

we should allow people freedom of religion as long as that religion stays within the laws of the country its in.
I admit that if Scientology didn't do anything more than take away the money from the poor sods who subscribe to their BS I wouldn't raise a finger in defense of its victims, if only because the issue of cult/religion/scam is tricky.
and my answer was NO but that he is only paying attention to scientology because it gets all the press. if he were really concerned about cults, there are plenty of cults just as bad (mostly in different ways) that he could also hate on.
True enough, but as others have noted, Scientology is the most succesful of them and it doesn't get the press it deserves. This is dangerous cult and everyone should be warned of it.

I admit that if Scientology didn't do anything more than take away the money from the poor sods who subscribe to their BS I wouldn't raise a finger in defense of its victims, if only because the issue of cult/religion/scam is tricky.

True enough, but as others have noted, Scientology is the most succesful of them and it doesn't get the press it deserves. This is dangerous cult and everyone should be warned of it.

because of the internet, scientology isnt what it once was.

they probably get a few people who join because they are influence by the movie stars who are members but its so easy to find out the truth that even that isnt as effective as it used to be.

at the same time, i certainly support the prosecution of scientology any time it crosses the line into illegal behavior.