NationStates Jolt Archive

For the sake of simplicity, you can only classify yourself as either left-wing or right-wing Do you think that the political "middle ground" (where the average person lies on a political compass) is moving to the left, the right, or staying constant? Poll coming.

At the moment, I would think it's fairly safe to say there is a centre-right consensus, with the very gradual beginnings of a shift to the left.

American, leftist, don't see the US moving in either direction

At the moment, I would think it's fairly safe to say there is a centre-right consensus, with the very gradual beginnings of a shift to the left.

I'd say that we're [UK] getting more authoritarian, but I don't know how that'd fit into left- or right-wing; I think it would depend on who you asked.

I'm what passes for left in the US, and I'd say the shift is slight, but is certainly there, to the left, at least in social matters. There's increased support for universal health care, for gay rights, for women's rights, and on issues like interracial dating. The other thing to remember is that, compared to Europe, our center is so far to the right that we had to start inching back toward sanity eventually.

I'd disagree on the gay rights, seeing as how it's only legal state-wide in MA. But on the other hand the push for amendments banning it has lost steam since Arizona

EDIT--- I'm talking about same sex marriage of course. Homosexuality itself is obviously legal

I believe in response to government propagaded threats of terror, the mass of our political scheme is moving towards conservative, authoritarian policies.

I would say this is an enduring quality for most western democracies.

I'm what passes for left in the US, and I'd say the shift is slight, but is certainly there, to the left, at least in social matters. There's increased support for universal health care, for gay rights, for women's rights, and on issues like interracial dating. The other thing to remember is that, compared to Europe, our center is so far to the right that we had to start inching back toward sanity eventually.

I'm what passes for left in the US, and I'd say the shift is slight, but is certainly there, to the left, at least in social matters. There's increased support for universal health care, for gay rights, for women's rights, and on issues like interracial dating.But at the same time, there's a massive move towards more authoritarianism. Don't it sort of even out?

...our center is so far to the right that we had to start inching back toward sanity eventually.

You just had to throw that in there, didn't you?

It's more of a loop the loop, really.

I'd say that we're [UK] getting more authoritarian, but I don't know how that'd fit into left- or right-wing; I think it would depend on who you asked.

I don't think either side has a monopoly over authoritarianism but it seems to me that we've not really budged from the centre. I mean you you hear Dave Cameron talking about "reclaiming the centre" from labour which is... strange.. Did the Tories ever have the centre ground?

But at the same time, there's a massive move towards more authoritarianism. Don't it sort of even out?

Hopefully that trend won't continue for much longer.

You just had to throw that in there, didn't you?

Its pretty well established the rest of the world thinks we're fucking nuts.

You just had to throw that in there, didn't you?

well thank zeus SOMEBODY did


and he's right, hopefully america will come to its senses and join the rest of the civilized western world in recognizing numerous basic civil liberties to its citizens

I mean, c'mon, South Africa has now become more progressive than the US when it comes to gay rights

how sad is that

Trilby63;12896269']Did the Tories ever have the centre ground?

Yes, of course. People think of Thatcher as the typical Conservative, but she was in fact the anomaly that moved the party rightwards. A 'traditional' Conservative would be in the centre, liberal in beliefs. One of the people Thatcher described as the 'wets'.

I'm Canadian, and I'm probably considered right wing. I think the centre here is quite far to the left.
Nearly everyone is in favour of universal health care, gun control, and other left-wing ideas.
On the plus side, it means people are against the constant surveillance and unreasonable searches in the states and England, and in favour of gay marriage and drug legalization. So I guess it's not all bad.

I'd disagree on the gay rights, seeing as how it's only legal state-wide in MA. But on the other hand the push for amendments banning it has lost steam since Arizona

EDIT--- I'm talking about same sex marriage of course. Homosexuality itself is obviously legal

That's what I mean by a shift, though--you've had three other states in the last year offer some sort of civil unions legislatively as opposed to being ordered to do so by the courts, and you've had a same-sex marriage amendment beaten back for the first time. In the past, those amendments were winning by 15-20 points. Plus, the polls show greater and greater acceptance for legalizing same-sex unions in the younger demographics, to the point where it's nearly 60% approval among people younger than 25. There's movement away from prejudice--it's slow, but it's there.

You just had to throw that in there, didn't you?

Well, if the straightjacket fits...

I'm definately left-wing, though I am against abortion in many cases, as well as excessive gun control.

Yes, of course. People think of Thatcher as the typical Conservative, but she was in fact the anomaly that moved the party rightwards. A 'traditional' Conservative would be in the centre, liberal in beliefs. One of the people Thatcher described as the 'wets'.

Well I wasn't around before Thatcher so maybe I more than a little ignorant..

Gods, that Cameron is a prick isn't he?

Trilby63;12896303']Well I wasn't around before Thatcher so maybe I more than a little ignorant..

I wasn't either. :p

You're hardly ignorant for thinking that - it's how the Conservatives are generally seen these days, and how many of them want to be seen.

Gods, that Cameron is a prick isn't he?

Yes. Yes he is.

That's what I mean by a shift, though--you've had three other states in the last year offer some sort of civil unions legislatively as opposed to being ordered to do so by the courts, and you've had a same-sex marriage amendment beaten back for the first time. In the past, those amendments were winning by 15-20 points. Plus, the polls show greater and greater acceptance for legalizing same-sex unions in the younger demographics, to the point where it's nearly 60% approval among people younger than 25. There's movement away from prejudice--it's slow, but it's there.

Our beating back the amendment here was iffy for a while (yes, even here in Massachusetts), Governor Patrick was able to get the support needed to defeat it in the legislature. But there was uncertainty for a little while.

Hopefully that trend won't continue for much longer.I hope you're right, but... This move to the left Nazz mentioned, it seems mostly hypothetical. Social liberties might have been discussed more the last couple of years, but I haven't noticed any actual change. Meanwhile, the shift towards more authoritarianism has been, in my opinion, staggering, and given the absence of an outcry over things like the Patriot Act and Military Commissions Act, doesn't seem very likely to change.

Lamentably centrist. British politics seems to be defined more by "authoratarian" and "liberal" than right or left at present. I hold Blair personally responsible for the utter lack of political principles Labour and the Tories now demonstrate, and the insufferable Mr. Cameron.:mad:

A lack of extreme ideology brings much more stability, and is only a bad thing if you're at the far end of the political spectrum. For most people, it's far better not to have one person doing one thing and then another doing the complete opposite every five years.

Lamentably centrist. British politics seems to be defined more by "authoratarian" and "liberal" than right or left at present. I hold Blair personally responsible for the utter lack of political principles Labour and the Tories now demonstrate, and the insufferable Mr. Cameron.:mad:

I hope you're right, but... This move to the left Nazz mentioned, it seems mostly hypothetical. Social liberties might have been discussed more the last couple of years, but I haven't noticed any actual change. Meanwhile, the shift towards more authoritarianism has been, in my opinion, staggering, and given the absence of an outcry over things like the Patriot Act and Military Commissions Act, doesn't seem very likely to change.

People are willing to give up freedom for security, even if it's a falsely percieved security, though I think that the American public is starting to sober up and realize that the past 6 years have been fucked up.

I hope you're right, but... This move to the left Nazz mentioned, it seems mostly hypothetical. Social liberties might have been discussed more the last couple of years, but I haven't noticed any actual change. Meanwhile, the shift towards more authoritarianism has been, in my opinion, staggering, and given the absence of an outcry over things like the Patriot Act and Military Commissions Act, doesn't seem very likely to change.

I think we're talking about two different things here. I'm talking about an attitudinal shift, not a legislative one. But the shift towards authoritarianism in the last year or so has been completely driven by the executive branch, not by the attitudes of the populace. In fact, I'd say that the drive has been part of the reason for Bush's shitty approval numbers--the move is happening in spite of popular dissent.

http://www.minimumsecurity.net/toons2006/6135.jpg

I think we're talking about two different things here. I'm talking about an attitudinal shift, not a legislative one. But the shift towards authoritarianism in the last year or so has been completely driven by the executive branch, not by the attitudes of the populace. In fact, I'd say that the drive has been part of the reason for Bush's shitty approval numbers--the move is happening in spite of popular dissent.

To an extent I believe that there is a more tolerant shift in people's attitudes. However I was also reading that there is a rise in hate groups here in Massachusetts lately in the paper yesterday.

A lack of extreme ideology brings much more stability, and is only a bad thing if you're at the far end of the political spectrum. For most people, it's far better not to have one person doing one thing and then another doing the complete opposite every five years.

It evens out, surely?;)

I wouldn't consider old guard conservatism or Labour extreme to be honest; in any case, it cannot be healthy for a democracy to be populated by two parties neither of whom offer anything more than centrism with a slight left or right twist.

It evens out, surely?;)

I wouldn't consider old guard conservatism or Labour extreme to be honest; in any case, it cannot be healthy for a democracy to be populated by two parties neither of whom offer anything more than centrism with a slight left or right twist.

What's wrong with the centre? It is, by definition, the point of compromise, and, ideally, the place where the good ideas from both sides are combined for the best outcome.

It is also the point of the people, in a very crude way. The fact that everyone sits in the centre goes a long way towards showing where the votes are.

I think we're talking about two different things here.You're right, sorry. Incidentially, damn I hope you're right. If for no other reason than your governments fascist tendencies are rubbing off on the rest of us.

You're right, sorry. Incidentially, damn I hope you're right. If for no other reason than your governments fascist tendencies are rubbing off on the rest of us.

Fascist is a strong word. I'd go with paranoid and Big Brotherish

It evens out, surely?;)

I wouldn't consider old guard conservatism or Labour extreme to be honest; in any case, it cannot be healthy for a democracy to be populated by two parties neither of whom offer anything more than centrism with a slight left or right twist.

I'd argue that it can't be healthy for a democracy to be populated by parties full stop. I mean other than raising capital and consolidating power what purpose do they serve? Though saying that I can't think of a viable alternative..

Lamentably centrist. British politics seems to be defined more by "authoratarian" and "liberal" than right or left at present. I hold Blair personally responsible for the utter lack of political principles Labour and the Tories now demonstrate, and the insufferable Mr. Cameron.:mad:
I'd have to agree with you there; Blair & Co have certainly slated political belief as a bad thing.

As 'New' Labour has moved to the authoritarian right, so has the British media and general political sentiment.

I think that's natural, to some extent--the people who disagree the most with a progressive change are going to feel marginalized and hope to reverse that change. Same thing happens when you have a regressive change and the people who disagree feel marginalized. Look at the civil rights movement in the 60s--lots of fits and starts there. And for a while, even recently, the pendulum was swinging pretty fiercely away from gay rights. I think it's started back, thanks in large part to Massachussetts--people realized the world wasn't ending when gay couples were married.

Heheh, well, we're geographically situated in a place where the Wrath of Yahweh would have difficulty hitting us.

To an extent I believe that there is a more tolerant shift in people's attitudes. However I was also reading that there is a rise in hate groups here in Massachusetts lately in the paper yesterday.

I think that's natural, to some extent--the people who disagree the most with a progressive change are going to feel marginalized and hope to reverse that change. Same thing happens when you have a regressive change and the people who disagree feel marginalized. Look at the civil rights movement in the 60s--lots of fits and starts there. And for a while, even recently, the pendulum was swinging pretty fiercely away from gay rights. I think it's started back, thanks in large part to Massachussetts--people realized the world wasn't ending when gay couples were married.

What's wrong with the centre? It is, by definition, the point of compromise, and, ideally, the place where the good ideas from both sides are combined for the best outcome.

It is also the point of the people, in a very crude way. The fact that everyone sits in the centre goes a long way towards showing where the votes are.

Policy is invariably muddled, crudely demagoguic and, frankly, flawed by the necessity to appease both the left and right. Any government, either Labour or Tory, elected in 2009, will have little choice but to perpetuate the polices of New Labour, and make marginal reforms, hence leading to stagnation.

I think in terms of economics the USA is probably moving more right-wing, compared to the rest of the time since the Great Depression. In terms of civil rights on a grand scale things always tend to move 'leftward', at least in the American sense of the word, as evidenced by a greater approval of gays and other minorities among the youth. Other social issues - abortion, gun control, the death penalty - aren't really doing much movement, I think, but I don't follow the polls too closely.

Policy is invariably muddled, crudely demagoguic and, frankly, flawed by the necessity to appease both the left and right. Any government, either Labour or Tory, elected in 2009, will have little choice but to perpetuate the polices of New Labour, and make marginal reforms, hence leading to stagnation.

We've been experiencing the longest period of stable growth in our history. I'd hardly call that stagnation.

Other social issues - abortion, gun control, the death penalty - aren't really doing much movement, I think, but I don't follow the polls too closely.

Opinions on those issues are already pretty well entrenched and aren't likely to budge for some time.

Fascist is a strong word. I'd go with paranoid and Big BrotherishTendencies, mate. But it really depends on how you look at it, don't it? I mean, you have a political system where the economic elite is financing the political system, and actively wield it as a weapon for profiteering and sabotaging competition. Your administration believes it is within it's rights to spy on it's citizens without even a hint of oversight or accountability. Tax reforms are tailored specifically to benefit the ruling class, at the expense of public service for everyone else... And so on and so forth. It lacks the extreme state violence and the top dogs are more directly in control of the military industrial complex and energy sector, but apart from that, it just doesn't look very different.

- But it's completely off topic, sorry.

Tendencies, mate. But it really depends on how you look at it, don't it? I mean, you have a political system where the economic elite is financing the political system, and actively wield it as a weapon for profiteering and sabotaging competition. Your administration believes it is within it's rights to spy on it's citizens without even a hint of oversight or accountability. Tax reforms are tailored specifically to benefit the ruling class, at the expense of public service for everyone else... And so on and so forth. It lacks the extreme state violence and the top dogs are more directly in control of the military industrial complex and energy sector, but apart from that, it just doesn't look very different.

- But it's completely off topic, sorry.

I missed your point then, my apologies. Our republic hasn't completely withered away (though I'm not debating the plutocracy/imperialist points, you're right on that), so I had a gut reaction to the word

I believe that here in the UK we are entering a dangerous position where the main parties have become so centrist that those who are evenly moderately left or right wing are beginning to feel disenfranchised and voting for fringe lunatic parties *cough BNP cough*.

I believe that here in the UK we are entering a dangerous position where the main parties have become so centrist that those who are evenly moderately left or right wing are beginning to feel disenfranchised and voting for fringe lunatic parties *cough BNP cough*.

I like to think that if the BNP ever got into a position of real power it really wouldn't last long and never happen again... How do I break this curse of idealism?

Trilby63;12896446']I like to think that if the BNP ever got into a position of real power it really wouldn't last long and never happen again... How do I break this curse of idealism?

BNP in power? Check out the records of some of their elected councillors, most notably in Barnsley and Dagenham. Their councillors have one of the highest rates of defections and resignations, and those who stay have some of the worst attendance and voting records.

Trilby63;12896446']I like to think that if the BNP ever got into a position of real power it really wouldn't last long and never happen again... How do I break this curse of idealism?

Well, the equivalent party in Germany never got reelected, so in a ways your idealism would be correct, but there would be a lot of crap in between now and then

BNP in power? Check out the records of some of their elected councillors, most notably in Barnsley and Dagenham. Their councillors have one of the highest rates of defections and resignations, and those who stay have some of the worst attendance and voting records.
It's hard to hide the fact that you're a Neanderthal, especially when you're pretending to run a council.

Politics in my country are going down the toilet.

I hope you're right, but... This move to the left Nazz mentioned, it seems mostly hypothetical. Social liberties might have been discussed more the last couple of years, but I haven't noticed any actual change. Meanwhile, the shift towards more authoritarianism has been, in my opinion, staggering, and given the absence of an outcry over things like the Patriot Act and Military Commissions Act, doesn't seem very likely to change.

Ummm....


There has been an outcry. The Patriot Act, in fact, had to be rewritten and the wiretapping case was fought in the courts. Other provisions of the PA are working their way through the courts.

I don't know if anyone has posted something like this but it seems that the American people are getting politicly moderate while our government is turning into something close to socialist europe.

I don't know if anyone has posted something like this but it seems that the American people are getting politicly moderate while our government is turning into something close to socialist europe.

Wait... what?

I don't know if anyone has posted something like this but it seems that the American people are getting politicly moderate while our government is turning into something close to socialist europe.

Yeah dude, where's the socialism? I don't see any. And I don't see us trading our form of Republic to that of a European Parliamentary Republic. I also don't see third parties like the one I vote for breaking the stranglehold that The Dems and GOP have.

I don't know if anyone has posted something like this but it seems that the American people are getting politicly moderate while our government is turning into something close to socialist europe.

Ummm... again, where's the socialism? Anyone? Anything remotely European about the US other than the politicians are of European descent? Universal health care? Free college? Anything like that? What about multiparty governments/administrations?

Public opinion is more right-wing now then it was five years ago, yet the polls reflect that centre-left candidates are more widely support then right-wing candidates. Australia, wtf mate?

I don't know if anyone has posted something like this but it seems that the American people are getting politicly moderate while our government is turning into something close to socialist europe.

I don't think you realize how socialist Europe is. The US is likely the least socialist developed nation in the world.

I'd say the general public in the U.K is apathetic and staying such really, oddly I find this comforting :confused:

It seems that it is getting more liberal. But I still think that the Bush Administration is still discriminating against American Muslims, a topic which the Dems have not yet addressed.

Politics are moving rightward. Social issues have areas that are moving both left and right. Gay rights are becoming more accepted, but areas like abortion are sliding rightward.
Economic issues are moving rightward. The populace generally resents the poor and opposes social programs. The Horatio Alger myth is still prevalent, and so the public opposes taxing the rich, even though most people aren't rich, and never will be.

We've been experiencing the longest period of stable growth in our history. I'd hardly call that stagnation.
Maybe, but I don't think you can always measure how good a society is by looking at numbers on a piece of paper. Obviously I'm not really in a position where I can offer an authoritative opinion on things (Havn't been on this earth too long!) but the social situation doesn't seem to be going all that grand. Labour have given up a long time ago at trying to create a better society, they're just interested in number crunching and bending over backwards for big business.

To answer the original question, it's just centre-right stagnation with barely any difference between the main two parties. The third party is different in that it's an even bigger joke and even more unfit to govern than the current mob.

No choice for centrists?

But we are a very conservative country, I tell you.

I'm forward, and it's moving to the left. At the moment, I find this to be a lot better than the alternative.

It seems that it is getting more liberal. But I still think that the Bush Administration is still discriminating against American Muslims, a topic which the Dems have not yet addressed.

nor will they

I'd say the general public in the U.K is apathetic and staying such really, oddly I find this comforting :confused:

It's safe provided the centrist governments they elect are not called upon to actually do anything.

My opinions are probably quite clear; I would rather have elections contested by a left wing Labour party, and a right wing Tory party, than by two parties childishly screaming "No, we've got the centre ground" at each other.

Whatever it is, it's the wrong way.

It's safe provided the centrist governments they elect are not called upon to actually do anything.

My opinions are probably quite clear; I would rather have elections contested by a left wing Labour party, and a right wing Tory party, than by two parties childishly screaming "No, we've got the centre ground" at each other.

Blimey Chris, i do believe I agree with you..........

We're at the beginning of what should be a 10 year shift to the left.

Ah, good ol' cycles.

We're at the beginning of what should be a 10 year shift to the left.

Ah, good ol' cycles.

Not too much, but most certainly overdue.