NationStates Jolt Archive

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070717-microsoft-patents-the-mother-of-all-adware-systems.html

So basically, Microsoft has requested a patent for its new advertising framework. Basically, the framework scans your hard drive and submits any usable data (email contents, music files, printer ink status, hardware information) to ad companies so they can target ads more specifically to you. The framework would also allow ads to be embedded into widgets so that the programs GUI contains the ads, and thus are always visible.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070717-microsoft-patents-the-mother-of-all-adware-systems.html

So basically, Microsoft has requested a patent for its new advertising framework. Basically, the framework scans your hard drive and submits any usable data (email contents, music files, printer ink status, hardware information) to ad companies so they can target ads more specifically to you. The framework would also allow ads to be embedded into widgets so that the programs GUI contains the ads, and thus are always visible.

That's just low.

That's just low.
That is a few levels below low.

That is a few levels below low.
....wow. If they try to release a XP patch for that, I'll just turn Windows Update off...that's kind of sad, really.

You'd think that Microsoft are making enough money... but no.

http://www.ubuntu.com/

....wow. If they try to release a XP patch for that, I'll just turn Windows Update off...that's kind of sad, really.
It (probably) wouldn't be an update for Windows XP/Vista, it would be like the .NET framework and ATI's display drivers. You'll need to go to Microsoft and download Ad Framework in order to install an application that depends on it.

That or the programs will just include the framework in the installer, which is the more common case on Windows. For a framework of this scale, it wouldn't be as practical, but if it did come to this, you would get it without knowing.

http://www.ubuntu.com/

www.debian.org

www.debian.org

http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/

http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/

Yeah well I have gotten lazy over the years lol

That's just low.

That's Little Brother (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism).

For anyone interested in liberating their computers from the clutches of Big and Little Brother alike:

Wikipedia List of Linux Distributions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_linux_distributions)

Yeah well I have gotten lazy over the years lol
I've never done it. I should do a traditional Gentoo install, but have gotten too comfy with Debian.

I wonder how heavily MS is into porn, cause after scanning my drive ect I'll either get porn slutty women or illegal software!!! GO MICROSOFT!! women and free SOFTWARE DELIVERED STRAIGHT TO MY EMAIL@!!!! can you ask for betteer service cos u no I dont use my comp for n e thing els

ICCD-Intracircumcordei;12884984']I wonder how heavily MS is into porn, cause after scanning my drive ect I'll either get porn slutty women or illegal software!!! GO MICROSOFT!! women and free SOFTWARE DELIVERED STRAIGHT TO MY EMAIL@!!!! can you ask for betteer service cos u no I dont use my comp for n e thing els
It wouldn't be delivered straight to your email, it would be delivered straight into your applications. Microsoft Outlook will have the ad, not the email it is displaying.

I've never done it. I should do a traditional Gentoo install, but have gotten too comfy with Debian.

Done both ... Learned a tone ... much prefer Debian lol

And so, our eternal foe has gained the advantage on us once more, the consumer. But fear not! We shall overcome...

Lol. Seriously, don't they have better things to do, like, focus on their own company?

Done both ... Learned a tone ... much prefer Debian lol
I'll probably probably go back to Debian right after I do it too. But installing Gentoo will force me to learn a helluva lot.

And so, our eternal foe has gained the advantage on us once more, the consumer. But fear not! We shall overcome...

Lol. Seriously, don't they have better things to do, like, focus on their own company?
Well, if there isn't a huge public backlash for this, MS could gain allot from this. It would allow even the shittiest of third party apps to survive on a commercial basis allowing MS to say "look at all the software we have, take that linux"

Microsoft:
We'd like you to install this software that not only lets us spy on your computer, but delivers advertisements to you based on what we think youre most likely to buy from us.
Spy/Adware: Now its a feature.

The adware framework would leave almost no data untouched in its quest to sell you stuff. It would inspect "user document files, user e-mail files...

I smell class action lawsuit.

I smell class action lawsuit.

All the members of said class gave away their rights when they clicked "I accept" in Step 1 of the installation and/or first-use setup process. So the courts will decide, anyway (under a Republican [or even Libertarian] government).

Either that, or the class will be awarded some pittance which Microsoft will write-off in the marketing budget (under a Democratic government).

The real solution is easier (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12884974&postcount=11) (screw the government).

All the members of said class gave away their rights when they clicked "I accept" in Step 1 of the installation and/or first-use setup process. So the courts will decide, anyway (under a Republican government).

Either that, or the class will be awarded some pittance which Microsoft will write-off in the marketing budget (under a Democratic government).

The real solution is easier (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12884974&postcount=11) (screw the government).

Incorrect. The EULA is not a legally binding document.

Incorrect. The EULA is not a legally binding document.

To reasonable people, obviously.


But we're talking about big business and government, so that fact doesn't really change anything. This is the problem that occurs when members of government also have a very high tendency to be, or be connected to, members of corporate boards.

To reasonable people, obviously.


But we're talking about big business and government, so that fact doesn't really change anything.

No, incorrect again. The EULA has been used in court many times, and in most cases, has been rejected as a contract of adhesion. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EULA#Enforceability

I smell class action lawsuit.

I'm guessing there's already a lot of people reading your e-mail. Google mail (gmail) doesn't even bother hiding that fact - their advertising picks up on your messages and advertises to you directly. :p

The way I see it, is, never say or do anything online you wouldn't want made public, and stick to safe websites only.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EULA#Enforceability


"The enforceability of an EULA depends on several factors, one of them being the court in which the case is heard..."

"A minority of courts have determined that the shrinkwrap license agreement is valid and enforceable..."

"Recently, publishers have begun to encrypt their software packages[citation needed] to make it impossible for a user to install the software without either agreeing to the license agreement or violating the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) and foreign counterparts."

It's just a matter of "innovation" in the field of packaging a license and seeding the courts with sympathetic ears.

One can trust that the government will make the correct decision (while considering that plenty of failures have occurred along with successes), or one can take charge of the situation one's self (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12884974&postcount=11). One of those two methods is guaranteed to work 100% of the time

At least until the political situation becomes one where advertisements will be the least of our worries.

The way I see it, is, never say or do anything online you wouldn't want made public, and stick to safe websites only.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy

Time to use the ad blocking my ZoneAlarm software then!

It (probably) wouldn't be an update for Windows XP/Vista, it would be like the .NET framework and ATI's display drivers. You'll need to go to Microsoft and download Ad Framework in order to install an application that depends on it.

That would be fair. I would not want it, but if other people care so little about privacy.. let them have their no-doubt cheap or free adsponsored software if they so desire.

That or the programs will just include the framework in the installer, which is the more common case on Windows. For a framework of this scale, it wouldn't be as practical, but if it did come to this, you would get it without knowing.

This on the other hand would not be. And quite probably illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy

That's good for encryption, but I'm no computer whiz - I have to use regular e-mail channels and all of that.

I've never done it. I should do a traditional Gentoo install, but have gotten too comfy with Debian.
Gentoo is a neat distro - especially if you do not plan on using it while stuff compiles. I have the feeling that it is a lot of quicker than *buntu.

But while we are posting random links: http://www.freebsd.org/

All hail the hackers who wage war against the unjust.

It wouldn't be delivered straight to your email, it would be delivered straight into your applications. Microsoft Outlook will have the ad, not the email it is displaying.

People won't use it or use a firewall to block it. Plus then there will be removal - people that don't like it wont use it. That simple. There are alternatives to everything that microsoft makes. As far as the OS and "ALTERTER" you know the service that lets people send ads to you if it is enabled. I think people will just be turned off, or turn it off, if it isn't an option people will not be pleased, but it would most likely appear as a 'valued added, default selected' option.

"I never knew women could fit into emails" " I wonder how much alchohol it takes for them to slip their email off."

Oh damn I'm an e-male.

No ur a shemale now shut up you wanker.

(apologies its late I'm tired and it was a natural dialouge)

OH but go linux.. if you had a half decent drag and drop music software program that took VST's I'd consider going back to linux again. or if I reinstalled vmware.. hmm.

well i certainly don't want that. my documents are my documents. they're private. and some are worth money... i don't allow just anyone access to my files now, and fuck me if i will let anyone i don't know really well actually scan my HD.

if it just scanned your RAM or something it might just about be acceptable as it could scan open documents, URLS and programs for keywords and display the ads accordingly. that would still be shitty but not AS shitty.


me no likey! bad MS! *thwats*

I'm guessing there's already a lot of people reading your e-mail. Google mail (gmail) doesn't even bother hiding that fact - their advertising picks up on your messages and advertises to you directly. :p

very good point, that man!
of course the difference is gmail is stored on their servers, wheras for MS to read Outlook mail it'd have to invasively scan my HD

didn't i hear something about itunes reading users' libraries, or is that just something i dreamed about?

didn't i hear something about itunes reading users' libraries, or is that just something i dreamed about?

I think they put that into a new version, but there was quite a backlash so you can now disable the feature (but I believe it is still there).

I'm guessing there's already a lot of people reading your e-mail. Google mail (gmail) doesn't even bother hiding that fact - their advertising picks up on your messages and advertises to you directly. :p

The way I see it, is, never say or do anything online you wouldn't want made public, and stick to safe websites only.

GOOGLE ADWORDS NOT WORK LIKE THAT!
Seriously, they trigger off of keywords, not by actually reading your mail in any way that could infringe on privacy.

My god, the porn ads! :eek:

GOOGLE ADWORDS NOT WORK LIKE THAT!
Seriously, they trigger off of keywords, not by actually reading your mail in any way that could infringe on privacy.

It needs to access your mail in order to do that, yes? Key phrases are still key phrases, when you're writing someone. ;)

It needs to access your mail in order to do that, yes? Key phrases are still key phrases, when you're writing someone. ;)
Except that it's automated and there are no people reading your Gmail email.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070717-microsoft-patents-the-mother-of-all-adware-systems.html

So basically, Microsoft has requested a patent for its new advertising framework. Basically, the framework scans your hard drive and submits any usable data (email contents, music files, printer ink status, hardware information) to ad companies so they can target ads more specifically to you. The framework would also allow ads to be embedded into widgets so that the programs GUI contains the ads, and thus are always visible.
Aaaaah shit.

I hope they don't imbed it in the program that validates your XP install that I was told I 'couldn't remove'.

If they do, then to be honest, it's Tiny XP from now on.

Adverts bad! *Smacks*

I reckon this will fuck off a lot of geeks (myself included), many of whom will move to Linux.
But that doesn't help the 90% of people who're too stupid/hopeless to use Windows, let alone Linux...

Except that it's automated and there are no people reading your Gmail email.

I'm sure we're supposed to think that. Though even if that's true, there are records, I'm sure.

But that doesn't help the 90% of people who're too stupid/hopeless to use Windows, let alone Linux...

Don't forget those of us that know what's going on and how to stop it, but are too lazy to actually do anything about it!

I'm sure we're supposed to think that. Though even if that's true, there are records, I'm sure.

Computers can't read English yet. A decent system can just about parse sentences (although there are lots of special cases), but any form of understanding? Nah. And considering the processing requirements of even that, the best you're going to do is some keywords with maybe a little simple context. Remember; they see billions of emails. A second of processing time each is way, way too much.

And why would they bother storing your email twice so somebody could read it? And do you think they have enough staff dedicated to reading email to make it through even a miniscule proportion of the billions they must see every day?

I'm all for paranoia, but try and keep it plausible; if you want to worry about people reading your emails, remember that it's transmitted in plaintext and anybody on the network between you and the recipient can read it in transit. There might even be somebody who cares between the two of you.

Don't forget those of us that know what's going on and how to stop it, but are too lazy to actually do anything about it!

Yeah, them too :D

Okay, you know, Linux is all well and good, but what about those of us who use our computers mostly as gaming machines? What about those of us who cannot afford to part with Windows because it means we simply won't be able to do most of the stuff we do?

Okay, you know, Linux is all well and good, but what about those of us who use our computers mostly as gaming machines? What about those of us who cannot afford to part with Windows because it means we simply won't be able to do most of the stuff we do?

Do what I do and cry yourself to sleep at night.

Except that it's automated and there are no people reading your Gmail email.
No one is "reading" the contents of your hard drive either with this new uber adware scheme.

And to anyone that says "Move to Linux." No, bad Linux fanboys, bad. Even if everyone started bailing out of Microsoft like rats, where would they go? Which 300 different versions of Linux? The ones that are already cutting deals with Microsoft? That would be real useful. There would still be the problems of making everything compatible because of all the different distros.

Okay, you know, Linux is all well and good, but what about those of us who use our computers mostly as gaming machines? What about those of us who cannot afford to part with Windows because it means we simply won't be able to do most of the stuff we do?

Hope people start making games for Linux, that's what I'll do...

...And play old games. Dosbox, Wine, emulators, etc.

And as for the other stuff... Yay monopolies, eh?

Hope people start making games for Linux, that's what I'll do...

...And play old games. Dosbox, Wine, emulators, etc.

And as for the other stuff... Yay monopolies, eh?
Emulators are and never have been as capable as what they emulate. And which version of Linux will they make things for? I wasn't aware every version of Linux was compatible with every other in that sense.

An automatic system can't laugh at you. But it can put you into a database of dirty bastards who would fall for porn ads, or potential threats that the government ought to keep an eye on, or anything else depending on what the automatic system was designed to search for. So just because no humans read all the emails doesn't mean there is nothing to worry about.
Emulators are and never have been as capable as what they emulate. And which version of Linux will they make things for? I wasn't aware every version of Linux was compatible with every other in that sense.
The developers make the application for Linux in general. Then the different Linux vendors take the application and customizes it to fit the needs of their target audience and makes a package works with their version of Linux, thats their main job. Then the user uses the package manager to install the application and it works like a charm.

But yeah when your vendor hasn't packaged an application for the version you're using yet then you'll have to download the source code from the application's website and compile it yourself. Which could be anything from a no-brainer (copy/paste 5 commands) to a nightmare of trying to figure out various problems. Ubuntu has pretty much everything so I never had to do this but after switching to Vector Linux which is more responsive on my ancient computer but has a somewhat limited selection of packages I've had to compile a few applications myself.

At first it is confusing that there are so many different Linux vendors but they target very different markets, that drastically cuts down the choices to only the few that focus on whatever it is that you need. For example there is Ubuntu, Mepis or Freespire for user friendly desktops, RedHat or Suse for corporate workstations and servers, Vector Linux or Gentoo for fast performance, Smoothwall for hardware firewalls, iPodLinux for iPods and so on.

Do what I do and cry yourself to sleep at night.

You know what? That sounds like a plan.

You know what? That sounds like a plan.

Better than Linux.

Gentoo is a neat distro - especially if you do not plan on using it while stuff compiles. I have the feeling that it is a lot of quicker than *buntu.

But while we are posting random links: http://www.freebsd.org/
fgrlx doesn't support BSD, but I am using avivo so.

Anyways, I am onto Debian now. Boots as fast as Ubuntu, with the traditional init.

Adverts bad! *Smacks*

I reckon this will fuck off a lot of geeks (myself included), many of whom will move to Linux.
But that doesn't help the 90% of people who're too stupid/hopeless to use Windows, let alone Linux...
I've found those hopeless people are better of with Linux. You got proper user accounts and can prevent them from generally fucking the system up. However, YMMV.

No one is "reading" the contents of your hard drive either with this new uber adware scheme.

And to anyone that says "Move to Linux." No, bad Linux fanboys, bad. Even if everyone started bailing out of Microsoft like rats, where would they go? Which 300 different versions of Linux? The ones that are already cutting deals with Microsoft? That would be real useful. There would still be the problems of making everything compatible because of all the different distros.

Move to… OS X? *awaits punch to kidney*

I'm guessing there's already a lot of people reading your e-mail. Google mail (gmail) doesn't even bother hiding that fact - their advertising picks up on your messages and advertises to you directly. :p

Meh. This new scheme and Gmail don't really compare. I'd say the difference is that:
a) Email is easily encrypted (compared to encrypting every file on your hard drive) but more importantly
b) You don't need to see the ads, they only show up if you use your browser for email. They aren't forced on you (*cough cough hotmail cough*)

Emulators are and never have been as capable as what they emulate. And which version of Linux will they make things for? I wasn't aware every version of Linux was compatible with every other in that sense.
If you got the correct libraries installed, most binaries will work.

Fuck, that sounds shitty.

Not sounding good at all.

http://www.ubuntu.com/
www.debian.org
http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/
*snip....not meant offensively*
But while we are posting random links: http://www.freebsd.org/
http://www.apple.com/macosx/
Move to… OS X? *awaits punch to kidney*
:gundge:
:sniper:
:mp5:
Or just praise for spurring my response.
*quote about iTunes spyware thing*
I think they put that into a new version, but there was quite a backlash so you can now disable the feature (but I believe it is still there).
It was something that would read your music list and have a window open at the bottom of the playlist with related songs/albums that you could buy from the store. And with at least the current update, this window is there by default nonfunctionally, and with a button on it to disable it.
And if Microsoft would get the same kind of backlash, I'm sure shit would go down in their offices, too. However, we're talking Windows users, which as you know, 90% of them are afflicted with a condition which makes them incapable of placing any effort into understanding computers or business.
Okay, you know, Linux is all well and good, but what about those of us who use our computers mostly as gaming machines? What about those of us who cannot afford to part with Windows because it means we simply won't be able to do most of the stuff we do?
Go badass. Dual-boot your computer with a pirated copy of Windows and with either Mac OS X or Linux, ignore any liabilities you are forced to agree to in Windows, and just put your games on Windows.
But...you didn't hear it from me.
Not that I can do it or anything. I bought my Mac like, less than a month before the Intelmacs came around, and they didn't accept my return. Rage against the machine is currently being undertaken.
Emulators are and never have been as capable as what they emulate. And which version of Linux will they make things for? I wasn't aware every version of Linux was compatible with every other in that sense.
Probably there's an area of general compatibility within Linux operating systems. And outside of that, you have the people that developed these hundred versions of Linux, working to get whatever that is to work on every version of Linux.
Better than Linux.
No no no, that's called starting flame wars. Negociate, especially when you haven't heard all of both sides of the story.
Meh. This new scheme and Gmail don't really compare. I'd say the difference is that:
a) Email is easily encrypted (compared to encrypting every file on your hard drive) but more importantly
b) You don't need to see the ads, they only show up if you use your browser for email. They aren't forced on you (*cough cough hotmail cough*)
Oh, it's so true...but I'm afraid of anything Google related because of www.googlewatch.org.
But...Microsoft and Google work together, so...
...is there another free browser-based email service, or do I have to contemplate suicide until my dad teaches me how to/buys the family ISP-based email addresses (I'm not even sure if he's thought of it since like, last year, let alone if we can with this ISP)?

http://www.apple.com/macosx/
I see they have finally moved on to ripping off Unix features from the early nineties. Its nice to know that Apple is almost caught up.

Such as?

Such as?
http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/features/spaces.html

I see they have finally moved on to ripping off Unix features from the early nineties. Its nice to know that Apple is almost caught up.

OS X is Unix… how can they rip off Unix?

OS X is Unix… how can they rip off Unix?
It is based on UNIX. They took the Mach Microkernel (which was being used as the microkernel for the HURD project) and added a whole bunch of FreeBSD code to it. Which is weird in a way. Mach and the FreeBSD kernel are complete design opposites.

It is based on UNIX. They took the Mach Microkernel (which was being used as the microkernel for the HURD project) and added a whole bunch of FreeBSD code to it. Which is weird in a way. Mach and the FreeBSD kernel are complete design opposites.

You forgot the I/O Kit! :D

X is Not Unix… only now it is, I guess.

You forgot the I/O Kit! :D

X is Not Unix… only now it is, I guess.
Bah, screw the IO kit! Seriously, what has IO ever been good for?

Emulators are and never have been as capable as what they emulate. And which version of Linux will they make things for? I wasn't aware every version of Linux was compatible with every other in that sense.

Actually standard linux binaries are really more compatible then a tone of windows programs between versions and releases

OS X is Unix… how can they rip off Unix?

They "Rip it off" by taking the code but then gang raping the design philosophy

Okay, so freesource features have been ripped off. I don't want to sound like I'm diverting attention, but is this any worse than how Microsoft has been ripping off Apple in Windows from Mac OS since the first version of Windows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Microsoft_Windows#Early_history:_an_expansion_of_MS-DOS)?

Bah, screw the IO kit! Seriously, what has IO ever been good for?

I can't think of a reply to that post that makes any sense… so, um, yeah. :D

They "Rip it off" by taking the code but then gang raping the design philosophy

I looked up "rip" in my dictionary to see if any of the definitions have sexual connotations, and they do!

rip: verb 1 [trans.] tear or pull (something) quickly or forcibly away from something or someone: a fan tried to rip his pants off during a show.

:p Odd thing for the Oxford to have as the first definition… so crude, eh wot?

Okay, so freesource features have been ripped off. I don't want to sound like I'm diverting attention, but is this any worse than how Microsoft has been ripping off Apple in Windows from Mac OS since the first version of Windows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Microsoft_Windows#Early_history:_an_expansion_of_MS-DOS)?
eh, most gui's are based of that original Xerox PARC design.

Okay, so freesource features have been ripped off. I don't want to sound like I'm diverting attention, but is this any worse than how Microsoft has been ripping off Apple in Windows from Mac OS since the first version of Windows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Microsoft_Windows#Early_history:_an_expansion_of_MS-DOS)?
Too bad Mac refuses to stop dicking around and is relegated to fanboys and people who only need to do stuff Mac is designed to do (which is also mainly because Adobe is designed around Mac).


Actually standard linux binaries are really more compatible then a tone of windows programs between versions and releases
So they still arn't compatible at all for all important matters?
When all the Linux people can stop having a big pissing contest of "my Linux can kick your Linux's ass" and stop trying to put Linux on anything with persistent memory, they can combine themselves together and make one ultimate freeware OS, until then, they too are relegated to fanboys and things Linux does really well (which is pretty much just host servers) and sniping at each other.

So they still arn't compatible at all for all important matters?
When all the Linux people can stop having a big pissing contest of "my Linux can kick your Linux's ass" and stop trying to put Linux on anything with persistent memory, they can combine themselves together and make one ultimate freeware OS, until then, they too are relegated to fanboys and things Linux does really well (which is pretty much just host servers) and sniping at each other.

Linux is just the kernel, the different distributions are all built on top of that...

Besides, the "one ultimate freeware OS" for whom? Everybody has different needs and wants. I might like something fairly straightforward, like Fedora Core, wheras Posi might want the extra efficiency afforded by Gentoo or whatever. And open-source != freeware, incidentally.

Linux is just the kernel, the different distributions are all built on top of that...

Besides, the "one ultimate freeware OS" for whom? Everybody has different needs and wants. I might like something fairly straightforward, like Fedora Core, wheras Posi might want the extra efficiency afforded by Gentoo or whatever. And open-source != freeware, incidentally.
Correct, I meant open-source.


And thanks for proving the point - this person wants this, that person wants that. Yeah, bullshit. You know what I want to do? Have everything I want in one package a la Apple OS and MS Windows. Windows only has different desktop versions to suck money out of people, they arn't significantly different. And for an Open-source project, those things could be included in the base desktop. There is no need to have a jillion Linux distros that do have different compatibilities and do different things. It is hampering the popular spread and use of Linux. If everyone got together and cut out the pissing contest (and similarly the elitism), Linux would be able to compete directly with Apple OS and Windows.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/

Go badass. Dual-boot your computer with a pirated copy of Windows and with either Mac OS X or Linux, ignore any liabilities you are forced to agree to in Windows, and just put your games on Windows.
But...you didn't hear it from me.
Not that I can do it or anything. I bought my Mac like, less than a month before the Intelmacs came around, and they didn't accept my return. Rage against the machine is currently being undertaken.


Now there's an option!

It'd be Linux, though, because I hate Macintosh.

Too bad Mac refuses to stop dicking around and is relegated to fanboys and people who only need to do stuff Mac is designed to do (which is also mainly because Adobe is designed around Mac).



So they still arn't compatible at all for all important matters?
When all the Linux people can stop having a big pissing contest of "my Linux can kick your Linux's ass" and stop trying to put Linux on anything with persistent memory, they can combine themselves together and make one ultimate freeware OS, until then, they too are relegated to fanboys and things Linux does really well (which is pretty much just host servers) and sniping at each other.
They are as compatible as windows is ... the pissing contest is really irrelevant to the compatibility of the binaries you only have 3 commands to remember with a binary on any system (hell up to and including macosx)

./configure
make
make install

That is more universal then just about anything I can think of including windows and mac

Okay, Linux Geeks(Meant as a compliment) what's the best Linux choice for someone who knows very little about programming? (I used to be able to handle Dos like a charm, but I've forgotten all of that in the intervening ten years or so.)

Correct, I meant open-source.


And thanks for proving the point - this person wants this, that person wants that. Yeah, bullshit. You know what I want to do? Have everything I want in one package a la Apple OS and MS Windows. Windows only has different desktop versions to suck money out of people, they arn't significantly different. And for an Open-source project, those things could be included in the base desktop. There is no need to have a jillion Linux distros that do have different compatibilities and do different things. It is hampering the popular spread and use of Linux. If everyone got together and cut out the pissing contest (and similarly the elitism), Linux would be able to compete directly with Apple OS and Windows.
Why would they want to? by doing that they loose a lot of the good features

Sure there are some distro's that try to be a windows replacement but who wants to be like windows? I would loose the benefits of the operating system

Okay, Linux Geeks(Meant as a compliment) what's the best Linux choice for someone who knows very little about programming? (I used to be able to handle Dos like a charm, but I've forgotten all of that in the intervening ten years or so.)

My choices would be ubuntu and fedora

(not a fan of fedora but they are meant for a desktop release)

They are fairly easy to install and get working and both come up with a full gui without any mess

My choices would be ubuntu and fedora

(not a fan of fedora but they are meant for a desktop release)

They are fairly easy to install and get working and both come up with a full gui without any mess

Hmm...

What's the difference between them? I basically would want to use this for everything I used to do on Windows apart from games. (So, writing, reading stuff, file-sharing, internet browsing, and the like.) Which would be better for those tasks?

Hmm...

What's the difference between them? I basically would want to use this for everything I used to do on Windows apart from games. (So, writing, reading stuff, file-sharing, internet browsing, and the like.) Which would be better for those tasks?

ubuntu

In fact by default it comes with open office and firefox installed by default as well as most of your standard utilities

ubuntu

In fact by default it comes with open office and firefox installed by default as well as most of your standard utilities

Niiiice. Ubuntu it is!

Now I just need to figure out how to install it without Windows going nutso on me about being superceded...

Why would they want to? by doing that they loose a lot of the good features
I could only assume these are "features" completely irrelevant to the general computer using populace that prevents Linux from being any more than a hardcore geek and server OS.

Sure there are some distro's that try to be a windows replacement but who wants to be like windows? I would loose the benefits of the operating system
Would that be like loosing the hounds?
What benefits would you lose exactly? Why do you propose they would have to be removed to make the versions less unwieldy and more of a match to the real OS's?

Hmm...

What's the difference between them? I basically would want to use this for everything I used to do on Windows apart from games. (So, writing, reading stuff, file-sharing, internet browsing, and the like.) Which would be better for those tasks?
Realistically? Very little. Uber Linux Pissing Contest? Ubuntu has the better package manager. Not to say that Fedora's is crap, its just not as fast as Ubuntu's and in difficult situations it may not find as elegant of solutions.
Niiiice. Ubuntu it is!

Now I just need to figure out how to install it without Windows going nutso on me about being superceded...
Windows will be oblivious. Just run disk defrag about two or three, or fifty, times. You will have to shrink your Windows partition, and a defraged FS shrinks easier.

Windows will be oblivious. Just run disk defrag about two or three, or fifty, times. You will have to shrink your Windows partition, and a defraged FS shrinks easier.

And back-up everything you value on the drive first, obviously; it almost always works, but sometimes goes wrong.

I could only assume these are "features" completely irrelevant to the general computer using populace that prevents Linux from being any more than a hardcore geek and server OS.

So?

Would that be like loosing the hounds?
What benefits would you lose exactly? Why do you propose they would have to be removed to make the versions less unwieldy and more of a match to the real OS's?

Performance
Security
Stability

those are the three big ones that are impacted by making something an "everyone" operating system just look at what is happening to Ubuntu as it tryes to be the everyone operating system

So?
So then I will never switch to Linux, neither will any common person that actually uses a computer for fun or leisure.

Performance
Security
Stability

Gibberish, gobbledegook, and nonsense

those are the three big ones that are impacted by making something an "everyone" operating system just look at what is happening to Ubuntu as it tryes to be the everyone operating system
You're going to have to do better than general references.

So then I will never switch to Linux, neither will any common person that actually uses a computer for fun or leisure.


Gibberish, gobbledegook, and nonsense


You're going to have to do better than general references.

Really ... they seem like real words to me all easily defined, not sure why you are having so much trouble with them

Ok I will make it simpler and more exact with an example

The server install of ubuntu versus a stock install of debian
One is an operating system that trys to be an every persons operating system
The other does not

Nothing extra installed

Ubuntu uses over 4 times the amount of ram on idle (though still significantly less then windows) and a little over twice the processing overhead

After installing a web server remote access a php interpreter and a database (stuff I use on a regular basis) ubuntu is up to about 5 times as much ram

After installing a gui and web browser on both ubuntu is holding at about 5 times more (of a larger number)

All that is un-acceptable to me and my uses for linux and would be something the operating system would lose by turning it into a one size fits all

Too bad Mac refuses to stop dicking around and is relegated to fanboys and people who only need to do stuff Mac is designed to do (which is also mainly because Adobe is designed around Mac).It's not Apple's fault that not only more people who want to have fun with their computers use Windows, but Microsoft has also been buying an increasing amount of companies and forcing them to only develop for Windows. Apple has developed its series of niches to fight this (the iPod, serious hardware/software quality, unmatched creative utility suites). What the hell do you want from them? If pretty much all you want to do with your computer is play solid, newer games, you should just buy a console, which'll only cost you 600 tops - which is less than a solid hardware upgrade will cost you for the computer.

And yeah, I know Apple's being a little irritating with their commercials. Attack ads are the worst.

*snip*
So your problems with making Linux OS for common use is that it wouldn't be an optimized server OS?

I'm sorry, that flies about as well as DK's logic does.

So your problems with making Linux OS for common use is that it wouldn't be an optimized server OS?

I'm sorry, that flies about as well as DK's logic does.

Yup thats one of my big problems with it

How is that bad logic?

I use linux as a server or on older hard ware both applications depend on certain features that would be lost by squishing all versions into one conglomorate desktop operating system

ergo it would make it useless to me

I dont see where the logic fails there

If they want a desktop replacement they can have their own version without touching the server versions no problem

It's not Apple's fault that not only more people who want to have fun with their computers use Windows, but Microsoft has also been buying an increasing amount of companies and forcing them to only develop for Windows. Apple has developed its series of niches to fight this (the iPod, serious hardware/software quality, unmatched creative utility suites). What the hell do you want from them? If pretty much all you want to do with your computer is play solid, newer games, you should just buy a console, which'll only cost you 600 tops - which is less than a solid hardware upgrade will cost you for the computer.
Oh please, what horse shit.

Apple is the last hold over from the early computing era when everyone was trying to "win" the computer wars by convincing people to put the best stuff on their computers - this is because software and hardware was tied together. You couldn't use the Apple OS on a Sun system or the Sun OS on a IBM system. Eventually, the rest of those companies either went hardware or software making their products so that they would be compatible with other products and their companies wouldn't go under.

Not Apple, nuh uh, they have held on to company made software for company made hardware for the past couple years. They didn't start privateering into well-established non-computer fields until they finally only semi-realized that the general computer populace liked the PCs better because they offered cross compatibility and therefore real competition and therefore better prices and better innovation.

You know why the iPhone won the mp3 wars? No one was trying. They saw a field with potential where there were already players. But the players were sitting around playing old-people chess so Apple jumped in there and started a game of soccer and got everyone's attention. You don't think there was an established mp3 market before Apple?

Apple would probably be better off as a company if they went straight into producing consumer electronics and notebooks like Sony did.

Buy a new console? Yeah, I know I want to buy a non-upgradeable piece of electronics of increasing price every 3 years that is not exactly reverse compatible with games released for its previous incarnations. I would much rather do that than upgrade my computer every couple years to keep up with games that always work no matter the age of my computer parts. Fanboys like you keep Apple just in the computer business.

Microsoft doesn't have to buy shit. You know who they have bought? Lionhead studios, that's it. Everyone else sees that PCs hold the most marketshare because they are cheaper and more compatible so they develop games for PCs which arn't compatible on Macs because of Apple's own stubborn fault.

Yup thats one of my big problems with it

How is that bad logic?
I don't intend to use my desktop as a server, neither do common users. Sorry, please try again.
They totally couldn't produce a slightly separate OS structure for servers than the one for common users - which is the one I was talking about.

Your problem makes no sense, good day.

Oh please, what horse shit.

Apple is the last hold over from the early computing era when everyone was trying to "win" the computer wars by convincing people to put the best stuff on their computers - this is because software and hardware was tied together. You couldn't use the Apple OS on a Sun system or the Sun OS on a IBM system. Eventually, the rest of those companies either went hardware or software making their products so that they would be compatible with other products and their companies wouldn't go under.

snip

To be fair Sun kept their hardware software pair until their last release (10) in which it had an I386 version ... but just a small point I agree with a lot of what you have to say

I don't intend to use my desktop as a server, neither do common users. Sorry, please try again.

What do I care what you use it for? my argument was never based on what you use it for but rather the trade offs that would be un-acceptable for what I use it for

What do I care what you use it for? my argument was never based on what you use it for but rather the trade offs that would be un-acceptable for what I use it for
Your problem with an OS for common users is that it would make a bad server OS. That doesn't make the remotest amount of sense. Sit back and think about it.

Your problem with an OS for common users is that it would make a bad server OS. That doesn't make the remotest amount of sense. Sit back and think about it.

No my problem with your suggestion was the banishment of all the linux distro's to make one common user operating system

I have no problem if one distro wants to do that (one is attempting as we speak) but there is no need to get rid of the others nor get rid of the "pissing contest"

But whatever I have tried to be cordial, you seem incapable

Oh please, what horse shit.

Apple is the last hold over from the early computing era when everyone was trying to "win" the computer wars by convincing people to put the best stuff on their computers - this is because software and hardware was tied together. You couldn't use the Apple OS on a Sun system or the Sun OS on a IBM system. Eventually, the rest of those companies either went hardware or software making their products so that they would be compatible with other products and their companies wouldn't go under.

Not Apple, nuh uh, they have held on to company made software for company made hardware for the past couple years. They didn't start privateering into well-established non-computer fields until they finally only semi-realized that the general computer populace liked the PCs better because they offered cross compatibility and therefore real competition and therefore better prices and better innovation.
What do you want, cross compatibility? PowerPC is a company,and they made Apple's CPUs until recently. Then they switched to Intel and now their computers are "cross-compatible" with everything. And that's not to say that they weren't before - while Microsoft was continuing with their if-it-hasn't-paid-us-it-shouldn't-work-with-our-products policy, Apple had worked around networking issues and made it completely possible for both sides to share files on a network.
And a non-Apple webcam has always worked with an Apple computer as long as it had drivers. I don't know what you're talking about.

You know why the iPhone won the mp3 wars? No one was trying. They saw a field with potential where there were already players. But the players were sitting around playing old-people chess so Apple jumped in there and started a game of soccer and got everyone's attention. You don't think there was an established mp3 market before Apple?
You contradicted yourself. You're saying that there was an established market for MP3s before Apple, but "nobody was trying". And since then, has any MP3 player truly compared to the at-the-time highest model of the iPod? Don't give me that Zen bullshit.

Buy a new console? Yeah, I know I want to buy a non-upgradeable piece of electronics of increasing price every 3 years that is not exactly reverse compatible with games released for its previous incarnations. I would much rather do that than upgrade my computer every couple years to keep up with games that always work no matter the age of my computer parts. Fanboys like you keep Apple just in the computer business.
You can keep that non-upgradable piece of electronics after that 5 (not 3) year period that products continue in that range, and keep playing said games on said console. That console won't stop working after that time, you know.
And you don't think I've tried to buy games for my Mac? My entire family has been playing Starcraft since its release, as have my relatives. I'm also currently working out a way to play AVP 2.
The problem is that it's a downward spiral - Apple computers are mainly owned by those who have computer know-how and therefore don't have the interest or patience to keep their games up-to-date, and therefore just play old games that they discovered to be great from their early years of novice computer usage. Microsoft buys video game companies and/or convinces them to stop developing for Mac OS X. Seasoned computer user introduces younger people to Macs, kid looks for games and doesn't find any new ones. Kid learns to just use computer for old games and work. Microsoft buys more video game companies. Kid invites friends to use Macs, but warns them of the lack of games. Kids end up buying a console and just playing online all day to satiate their game-playing desires. Microsoft buys more companies.

Microsoft doesn't have to buy shit. You know who they have bought? Lionhead studios, that's it. Everyone else sees that PCs hold the most marketshare because they are cheaper and more compatible so they develop games for PCs which arn't compatible on Macs because of Apple's own stubborn fault.
Oh yeah? How about Bungie and FASA? Bungie has developed what is one of the most famous video games of this decade, and was developing it for the Mac only until Microsoft offered them an offer they couldn't refuse (keep developing games for this comparably small community, or help us develop the next big thing in video games), and voila - Mac loses one of its most important players in the video game industry
As for FASA, well, they were devloping for consoles before Microsoft bought them. Mechwarrior, from the second on, was a Windows-only series.

What the fuck do you want from Apple, then?

What do you want, cross compatibility? PowerPC is a company,and they made Apple's CPUs until recently. Then they switched to Intel and now their computers are "cross-compatible" with everything.
I don't think you understand the word compatible.

while Microsoft was continuing with their if-it-hasn't-paid-us-it-shouldn't-work-with-our-products policy,
Which is why so much open-source and freeware software works on Windows.

And a non-Apple webcam has always worked with an Apple computer as long as it had drivers. I don't know what you're talking about.And who is going to make those drivers for Apple?

You contradicted yourself. You're saying that there was an established market for MP3s before Apple, but "nobody was trying". And since then, has any MP3 player truly compared to the at-the-time highest model of the iPod? Don't give me that Zen bullshit.
Zen, the end, fanboy.

And you don't think I've tried to buy games for my Mac? My entire family has been playing Starcraft since its release, as have my relatives. I'm also currently working out a way to play AVP 2.
While I'm playing Oblivion, NWN2, and Civ IV without "working out a way" to do it.

The problem is that it's a downward spiral - Apple computers are mainly owned by those who have computer know-how
No, that's Linux. Apple computers are mainly owned by fanboys and those that do graphical work - which is also primarily because Adobe was designed for Apple.

Microsoft buys video game companies and/or convinces them to stop developing for Mac OS X.
It couldn't possibly be because it would cost more money to develop effectively a different game, coding wise, to work with Apple. It's all a big Microsoft conspiracy :rolleyes:

Realistically? Very little. Uber Linux Pissing Contest? Ubuntu has the better package manager. Not to say that Fedora's is crap, its just not as fast as Ubuntu's and in difficult situations it may not find as elegant of solutions.

Well then definitely Ubuntu, because I'm not exactly a code wizard.

Windows will be oblivious. Just run disk defrag about two or three, or fifty, times. You will have to shrink your Windows partition, and a defraged FS shrinks easier.
...

How do I do that? The shrinking part, I mean.
And back-up everything you value on the drive first, obviously; it almost always works, but sometimes goes wrong.

Ayeaye. Luckily, I don't have too much that is totally priceless...I have a whole lot I'd have to regather and that would piss me off, but not too much that's priceless.

Linux is shit. Mac is shit. Everything else is shit (except windows)....

..for teh games that is :p

Well then definitely Ubuntu, because I'm not exactly a code wizard.
You don't need to know fuck all about coding about to use Linux.
...

How do I do that? The shrinking part, I mean.
When installing Ubuntu, you will come across a screen that asks how you want to partition your disks. There will be three options: Guided - Use entire disk, Guided - Resize NTFS, Manual. When you select Guided - resize NTFS, a slider bar will appear on screen asking you how big you want the NTFS partition to be.

The big question here is actually this. Which do you think looks nicer, this (http://shots.linuxquestions.org/?linux_distribution=Ubuntu%207.04) or this (http://shots.linuxquestions.org/?linux_distribution=Kubuntu%207.04)? Ignore the colors as those are easily changeable, just pick which look you think is better. There is no other difference besides the look. The first is Ubuntu, the second Kubuntu which is Ubuntu with a different desktop environment.
Ayeaye. Luckily, I don't have too much that is totally priceless...I have a whole lot I'd have to regather and that would piss me off, but not too much that's priceless.
I haven't had it fuck up on me. And NTFS compatibility has improved allot since then. I assume you are using NTFS anyways. You don't use Vista do you? The Vista version of NTFS is not binary compatible with the XP version, and Linux support for the Vista version is scary at best.

You don't need to know fuck all about coding about to use Linux.

Oh goodie.

When installing Ubuntu, you will come across a screen that asks how you want to partition your disks. There will be three options: Guided - Use entire disk, Guided - Resize NTFS, Manual. When you select Guided - resize NTFS, a slider bar will appear on screen asking you how big you want the NTFS partition to be.

The big question here is actually this. Which do you think looks nicer, this (http://shots.linuxquestions.org/?linux_distribution=Ubuntu%207.04) or this (http://shots.linuxquestions.org/?linux_distribution=Kubuntu%207.04)? Ignore the colors as those are easily changeable, just pick which look you think is better. There is no other difference besides the look. The first is Ubuntu, the second Kubuntu which is Ubuntu with a different desktop environment.

I haven't had it fuck up on me. And NTFS compatibility has improved allot since then. I assume you are using NTFS anyways. You don't use Vista do you? The Vista version of NTFS is not binary compatible with the XP version, and Linux support for the Vista version is scary at best.

Hmm...

I actually don't remember. When I installed XP on this computer I let it partition the harddrive since this was the computer I built. It's PROBABLY NTFS but I don't know how to check.

Oh goodie.


Hmm...

I actually don't remember. When I installed XP on this computer I let it partition the harddrive since this was the computer I built. It's PROBABLY NTFS but I don't know how to check.
How big is your C: drive? If it is greater than 32GiB, then it is NTFS.

I don't think you understand the word compatible.
Let's hear your version.
Which is why so much open-source and freeware software works on Windows.
That's called large user base.

And who is going to make those drivers for Apple?
The companies. They do, they were, and they will continue to.

Zen, the end, fanboy.
I don't have an iPod, but I can point towards limitless reasons why an iPod will be a better purchase than the cheapo Zen.
As a side-note, you seem fairly happy to break the terms of service by repeatedly calling me a fanboy. I won't say anything, but it's a little irritating, in a Mac commercial kind of way.

While I'm playing Oblivion, NWN2, and Civ IV without "working out a way" to do it.
By "working out a way" I mean possibly pirating it because I don't know where I could buy a game that old and I already bought it for the PC ages ago. It was made for the Mac. And whatever games you just pointed out, once again, bigger gamer base.

No, that's Linux. Apple computers are mainly owned by fanboys and those that do graphical work - which is also primarily because Adobe was designed for Apple.
Uh huh. Explain
It couldn't possibly be because it would cost more money to develop effectively a different game, coding wise, to work with Apple. It's all a big Microsoft conspiracy :rolleyes:
Any game that was developed on the Xbox 360 (Oblivion, which you play) had to be developed on a system based on Mac infrastructure first (the 360 uses a PowerPC CPU). If anything, it cost money to develop effectively a different game for Windows from the 360.
Adobe was designed for Apple. Sure, it's all a big Apple conspiracy :rolleyes:
As for the "mainly owned by fanboys" thing, explain XCode to me.

How big is your C: drive? If it is greater than 32GiB, then it is NTFS.

It's a 320 GiB.

Well, that settles that! Neat!

What's the general size I should shrink my Window's partition to? All it will be doing is playing games, since I plan on removing and uninstalling everythin--

Oh crap. What about my firewall, my antivirus software? My antivirus software is freeware, but I paid for my firewall's service. I'm going to have to check to see if they're compatible with Kubuntu...

Well, at least Spyware S&D is bound to have a Kubuntu equivalent.

Anyway, as I said, all it will be doing is playing games, with everything else gutted and switched to Kubuntu.

Will I be able to easily switch files between the operating systems? And how exactly do I dual-boot?(I know, I should probably just look this stuff up, but I always prefer answers from a person because usually they'll toss in stuff that a FAQ won't cover.)

Frankly, I would format it so the Windows partition is in maybe a 20GB partition (or less) then install everything to the other partition. Would speed up spyware and antivirus scanning.

Frankly, I would format it so the Windows partition is in maybe a 20GB partition (or less) then install everything to the other partition. Would speed up spyware and antivirus scanning.

Hmm...I dunno...I would have a whole bunch of ISOs on that side...

Perhaps just doubling your number would do. I'm going to have to think on this. (I have time, since I need to find a good Linux firewall, and I want to go ahead and use up the remaining sixty-three days on my current one. I paid for it, so I should use it up.

Unless Windows tries forcing this crap on us before then, then it's insta-switch time.)

It's a 320 GiB.

Well, that settles that! Neat!

What's the general size I should shrink my Window's partition to? All it will be doing is playing games, since I plan on removing and uninstalling everythin--
Find out how much space is used (right click C: -> Properties) then add 15-20GiB.
Oh crap. What about my firewall, my antivirus software? My antivirus software is freeware, but I paid for my firewall's service. I'm going to have to check to see if they're compatible with Kubuntu...
They won't be. Kubuntu has its own firewalls available. I've heard firestarter is a pretty good one. It is a Gnome app (Ubuntu uses Gnome, so firestarter will look like the Ubuntu applications) but you should only need to open the GUI once to set it up.
Well, at least Spyware S&D is bound to have a Kubuntu equivalent.

Anyway, as I said, all it will be doing is playing games, with everything else gutted and switched to Kubuntu.
Won't need it. Spyware is very OS dependent. So are viruses, but since you want to transfer files between Linux/Windows you should still install Clam AV.
Will I be able to easily switch files between the operating systems?[quote]Two ways to do this. The first is to setup a small FAT32 partition (say 1 GiB) and use that as both OSes have good FAT32 drivers. This will require manual partitioning. Otherwise, you could install an Ext3 driver for Windows. Cannot guarantee this as I have never tried it. [quote]And how exactly do I dual-boot?
Ubuntu installer takes care of that for you. When you boot, you will be presented with a menu where you can select which OS you want.
(I know, I should probably just look this stuff up, but I always prefer answers from a person because usually they'll toss in stuff that a FAQ won't cover.)doesn't Bother me any. Ubuntu installs from a LiveCD (the install cd boots to a regular desktop and the installer is just another application so you can post on NSG (or msn me if you really want) while you install the thing if you get stuck.

Just curious, what graphics card do you have?

Find out how much space is used (right click C: -> Properties) then add 15-20GiB.
Sounds good.

They won't be. Kubuntu has its own firewalls available. I've heard firestarter is a pretty good one. It is a Gnome app (Ubuntu uses Gnome, so firestarter will look like the Ubuntu applications) but you should only need to open the GUI once to set it up.

Won't need it. Spyware is very OS dependent. So are viruses, but since you want to transfer files between Linux/Windows you should still install Clam AV.
[quote]Will I be able to easily switch files between the operating systems?
Well...point made, I suppose.

Two ways to do this. The first is to setup a small FAT32 partition (say 1 GiB) and use that as both OSes have good FAT32 drivers. This will require manual partitioning. Otherwise, you could install an Ext3 driver for Windows. Cannot guarantee this as I have never tried it.

Hmm...okay, I'll probably go with the small FAT32 partition...for the sake of ease I'll make it eight gigabytes. That way I should be covered no matter what the ISO size is.

Ubuntu installer takes care of that for you. When you boot, you will be presented with a menu where you can select which OS you want.
Well that's convenient.

doesn't Bother me any. Ubuntu installs from a LiveCD (the install cd boots to a regular desktop and the installer is just another application so you can post on NSG (or msn me if you really want) while you install the thing if you get stuck.


Oh, goodie.

Just curious, what graphics card do you have?

This:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814122244

EDIT: DAMN! It's deactivated.

Leadtek PX7900GT TDH Geforce 7900GT 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail

Urge to maim rising...

Good thing I have the old 98 as my personal system.

Sorry for the delayed response, but we had a power outage. Someone hit a power line with their car and knocked it down.:(
Hmm...okay, I'll probably go with the small FAT32 partition...for the sake of ease I'll make it eight gigabytes. That way I should be covered no matter what the ISO size is.
So you know how to properly burn an ISO?
Well that's convenient.
Well, its not hard to do manually... once you know what it does.

Oh, goodie.
:p

This:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814122244

EDIT: DAMN! It's deactivated.

Leadtek PX7900GT TDH Geforce 7900GT 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail[/QUOTE]
Oh, goodie. Nvidia does a pretty good job of supporting their cards with drivers. Not as good as Intel, but much better than ATI.

Oh, goodie. Nvidia does a pretty good job of supporting their cards with drivers. Not as good as Intel, but much better than ATI.

Whaaaaat?

nVidia does have better Linux support, but otherwise ATi's driver team is almost universally recognized to be more consistent and quicker, if not better even.

As for Intel drivers, not a chance. Man. Where did you get that information?

Whaaaaat?

nVidia does have better Linux support, but otherwise ATi's driver team is almost universally recognized to be more consistent and quicker, if not better even.

As for Intel drivers, not a chance. Man. Where did you get that information?
Nvidia's driver uses the same OpenGL stack as Windows, both giving similar performance as Windows, and allowing them to focus on adding features such as aiglx support and SLI (considered barely usable, still).

Intel's driver has been open source for a while now, and their entire product line is supported. Intel guarantees launch day support too (nvidia usually achieves this, but does not guarantee it). Being open source, Intel's driver is usually the first to support new X.org features such as aiglx. The person(s) who add the feature to X.org are also able to add it to the driver, and can do so quite quickly as they are intimately familiar with the feature and it's API. What's more, being open source, linux distributions can legally distribute the driver and have the installer set it up, making it the only driver that does not require manual configuration.

ATI however, is absolutely horrible on Linux. Performance is about half as good for games (compared to Windows), and is even worse for more production oriented applications. Support for new products is always late. In the case of the X1000 (R500) series, it was 6 months late. New features, such as aiglx support, have not yet been implemented despite being nearly a year old. Most releases will have a video playback bug on one generation of cards (usually R500 or R400).

Linux is shit. Mac is shit. Everything else is shit (except windows)....

..for teh games that is :p

It can be a bit more work but it is possible to game in *nix ... and when you do the performance can be better

That being said I dont usually bother I normally use *nix for servers and network based projects (IDS's or just traffic analysis nodes)

Frankly, I would format it so the Windows partition is in maybe a 20GB partition (or less) then install everything to the other partition. Would speed up spyware and antivirus scanning.

Also can help with regular defraging as well as be beneficial in a recovery situation normally what I will do is use something like ghost and make an image of that windows partition on a separate partition/drive and if I fubar windows (which happens about once every two months) I can restore that partition in about 15 minuits (or that drive in my case)

Linux! Linux for the win! Convert now, as I am doing!

I've already resigned myself to this eventuality.
Linux! Linux for the win! Convert now, as I am doing!
The personal information available about me on my computer is less important than my ability to play awesome computer games.
I don't have two graphics cards and four gigs of duel channel RAM for nothing.

I've already resigned myself to this eventuality.

The personal information available about me on my computer is less important than my ability to play awesome computer games.
I don't have two graphics cards and four gigs of duel channel RAM for nothing.

A bit of work but if you are running Nvidia cards you can actually get a bit better performance out of them in *nix with the lower operating system overhead