NationStates Jolt Archive

As most of you guys know, I live in the South, and as a result, I have family members on my mom side. (My dad side is saner) that were around in the Jim Crow era that are still alive (mainly my grandparents) and I also have some cousins that are also bigoted. I would like to say that they aren't racist, I really would because they're my family and I love them, but it's kinda hard to say that when they do say racist stuff. I have dated outside of my own race in the past and it never got serious enough to where I'd actually bring them to the family reunion on Christmas. However I have wondered what I would do if it did get serious enough to where I'd actually want to bring them to this Christmas reunion.

Personally I really don't care what they think, If a woman makes me happy, and if I make her happy, that's all that really should matter, and I'd probably tell this side of the family that if they don't like it, well they can just shove it up their asses.

So has anyone else have a similar family like mine, and have you ever thought about what would happen if you dated someone outside of your race?

I have dated some other races, but just like most relationships, they just don't work out. My family isn't that judgmental, but if I like a woman I'll probably bring her to meet the family, regardless of what I'd think they would think of here.

My dad grew up in every small town outside San Antonio, so there was a different sort of racism in his childhood. I remember him telling me (as part of a discussion about the shittiness of racism) that his dad once told him "I'd rather see you come home with a ****** than a goddamn Meskin." Fortunately, my dad was the complete opposite of my granddad, so my nuclear family was nothing like that.

The problem you face is that you can't choose family. However, most family, in my experience, won't say shit about you or your partner to your face, unless they're top-tier assholes. Expect a lot of crap said behind your back. However, it's also possible that, if you're in a serious relationship, and if you stand strong, they might see the crappiness of their beliefs eventually, and change.

Nah, I haven't had the misfortune. :p

I guess I have/had a few Jewish relatives, but that's about it. They won't associate with me in most ways, or attend any kind of wedding or funeral I might be involved in, and don't really consider me family. But I'm always invited to their events, and there's no outright hostility, so I'm cool. :)

Well I have an Aunt who is very far to the right, and thinks that race relations classes are evil.

My dad grew up in every small town outside San Antonio, so there was a different sort of racism in his childhood. I remember him telling me (as part of a discussion about the shittiness of racism) that his dad once told him "I'd rather see you come home with a ****** than a goddamn Meskin." Fortunately, my dad was the complete opposite of my granddad, so my nuclear family was nothing like that.

The problem you face is that you can't choose family. However, most family, in my experience, won't say shit about you or your partner to your face, unless they're top-tier assholes. Expect a lot of crap said behind your back. However, it's also possible that, if you're in a serious relationship, and if you stand strong, they might see the crappiness of their beliefs eventually, and change.

The problem with my family is, well, they fail the understand the substance of being subtle or talking behind backs. I can hear one of my uncles now.

"Hey what is he doing dating a *insert racist name here*?" Loud and clear so that everyone can hear.

Knowing me I'd probably tell him off and add some insults at the same time, thus making the rest of the night very very very uncomfortable.

My family was never very happy with me dating white guys, but they didn't really say much about it. It was more...a tension, when the boyfriend would ask stupid things about our culture, in a totally insensitive way. It was embarrassing, I stopped bringing white boys home, and I can't fault my parents for not being impressed.

The easy solution to handling family members is to kill and eat them.

Seriously though, my family isn't racist, but they'd be "disappointed, but accepting" of my choice to date out of my race. Hell, I think they should be happy that some one would want to date me period! :p

Don't fret it, people will be stupid. Just gotta show them that the stereotypes that fuel their hate are idiotic and so on. :)

My family was never very happy with me dating white guys, but they didn't really say much about it. It was more...a tension, when the boyfriend would ask stupid things about our culture, in a totally insensitive way. It was embarrassing, I stopped bringing white boys home, and I can't fault my parents for not being impressed.

damn whities! :mad:

Why does it matter what those hicks think? And why do "g"s look like "q"s on the main page?!

Because you touch yourself at night.

Why does it matter what those hicks think? And why do "g"s look like "q"s on the main page?!

The problem with my family is, well, they fail the understand the substance of being subtle or talking behind backs. I can hear one of my uncles now.

"Hey what is he doing dating a *insert racist name here*?" Loud and clear so that everyone can hear.

Knowing me I'd probably tell him off and add some insults at the same time, thus making the rest of the night very very very uncomfortable.

Then that's what you do. I've done it, and it is uncomfortable for a while, but you can't let that kind of crap pass--well, I can't anyway.

damn whities! :mad:

I don't know...it was just cowboys and indians where I grew up. Maybe any other non-native group would have been as stupid.

So yeah, I didn't bring them home. Just fucked them in their cars :P

damn whities! :mad:

I would just claim to be 1/8 Indian in that situation - hell, if Gary Busey is, I might as well be too. :p Might help excuse some of the likely ignorance.

I don't know...it was just cowboys and indians where I grew up. Maybe any other non-native group would have been as stupid.

So yeah, I didn't bring them home. Just fucked them in their cars :P


Man, the hormonal 20 year old side of me wishes I could me chicks like you :p

I would just claim to be 1/8 Indian in that situation - hell, if Gary Busey is, I might as well be too. :p Might help excuse some of the likely ignorance.


Hey, i am 1/8 native american, so that idea works for me :-p

My ex-husband won't go to movies or watch television shows that have black people in them. Mostly, we ignore him. Except when we laugh at him.

I'm Vietnamese and I'm sure my mom's side of the family would probably have a problem with that, although it probably wouldn't be that bad. I remember my uncle telling me that my grandpa wouldn't let him go to the school prom because his date was white. My dad's side of the family doesn't even care. In fact, I have an uncle who is white, the other from Honduras, and I have 2 more relatives who are dating people of other races.

Then that's what you do. I've done it, and it is uncomfortable for a while, but you can't let that kind of crap pass--well, I can't anyway.

That probably what I'd end up doing because well I'm old fashioned and anyone who insults the person I'm dating and in a serious relationship with will have to answer to me, so I won't let that kind of crap pass either.

Man, the hormonal 20 year old side of me wishes I could me chicks like you :p

That is far from unique, I assure you.

Man, the hormonal 20 year old side of me wishes I could me chicks like you :p

Satan made us to turn you bad. Think of Jesus.

Satan made us to turn you bad. Think of Jesus.

Yea, but Jesus got nailed to a cross, while Thor has a hammer. *nods*

Man, I so do not understand this whole 'race' obsession!
I'm a Kiwi, and I've dated white Kiwi girls, Polynesian girls, Aussies, an Italian, a Scot, two Sri Lankans...
They were all hot, cute, smart, and damn fun in bed! Can't say their 'race' ever mattered to me. And as far as I'm aware, none of them ever cared about going out with a 'white' guy either.
If I only 'dated within my race', I'd hardly ever get laid! What a waste.

That said, my father did, on occasion, go on about 'nig-nogs' (meaning Maori and Polynesian) occasionally - so I told him to cut it out or I'd stop talking to him.
He didn't stop (in fact, deliberately increased his racism to 'show me'), we haven't spoken in years, and I don't ever feel the 'loss'.
The people I choose to spend my time with aren't bigots, and I'm much happier for not having to constantly filter out other people's shit.

Decide what's acceptable to you, and don't let 'family' override your choice. If you're dating a nice girl of different skin colour, and can't take her to family dinner, decide which is more important and make a choice. Don't just put up with crap because the bigot next to you shares some genetic overlap with you.
And don't, for fuck's sake, play some half-assed 'appeaser' role where you hide your 'mixed-race' relationships from your bigoted family - it's dishonest and demeaning to your partner or friend.

However I have wondered what I would do if it did get serious enough to where I'd actually want to bring them to this Christmas reunion.

Point out to them that Adam and Eve were almost certainly black.
Or:
Point out that there are no "purebreeds" on this planet, which makes the whole racething a moot point.

Edit: Hmm, I need to take that last thing back. It is theoretically possible there are still some "pureblacks" somewhere on this planet.
There can however be no "pure whites".

you.
And don't, for fuck's sake, play some half-assed 'appeaser' role where you hide your 'mixed-race' relationships from your bigoted family - it's dishonest and demeaning to your partner or friend.

Eh if I ever get that serious with a girl, I can assure you that I won't hide her. Like I said, if my family don't like it, they can shove it.

Yea, but Jesus got nailed to a cross, while Thor has a hammer. *nods*

That, sir, is sig worthy, and I never thought I would say that to you. Well done.

My Grandpa is racist, three of my four uncles are racist, and two of my fifteen cousins are racists, one of them has an obession with blood purity.

That, sir, is sig worthy, and I never thought I would say that to you. Well done.

Yay! :D

Everyday, Nazz and I see more eye to eye on the religion issues.

My Grandpa is racist, three of my four uncles are racist, and two of my fifteen cousins are racists, one of them has an obession with blooud purity.

Ever tried to tell him that there's no such thing as a pure race?

Yay! :D

Everyday, Nazz and I see more eye to eye on the religion issues.

I would like it noted, however, for the record, that you're the one moving closer to me, not vice versa. :D

My Grandpa is racist, three of my four uncles are racist, and two of my fifteen cousins are racists, one of them has an obession with blooud purity.

So that last one is black ?

Are you old enough to (and financially capable to) live on your own? If so, tell your family that if they want to be bigots they know where the door is. Or, if it's at their house, tell them that you have better use for your time than wasting it on a group of bigots.

In either case, be sure to use the word "bigot" to drive the point home. Rememebr, they're the type of people responsible for the civil war.

Ever tried to tell him that there's no such thing as a pure race?Nope, as they just would rant and I cannot produce 'viable' evidence to the contrary in their opinion.

So that last one is black ?No, they are just from the Southwest and they are of Germanic descent.

The problem with my family is, well, they fail the understand the substance of being subtle or talking behind backs. I can hear one of my uncles now. That's downright pathetic of them.

No, they are just from the Southwest and they are of Germanic descent.

And they do not believe that all whiteskinned humans are descended from black (or brown) skinned ones ?
What is their ancestral idea then ?

No, they are just from the Southwest and they are of Germanic descent.

If you have the money, offer to get them a DNA test. Or better yet, dare them to take one and prove just how "pure" they are. They'll either chicken out, or they'll take it and find out just how true the saying "momma's baby, daddy's maybe" is.

Point out to them that Adam and Eve were almost certainly black.
Or:
Point out that there are no "purebreeds" on this planet, which makes the whole racething a moot point.

Edit: Hmm, I need to take that last thing back. It is theoretically possible there are still some "pureblacks" somewhere on this planet.
There can however be no "pure whites".

Eh. It might be more effective to point out that skin color isn't the best marker to gauge genetic similarity by. ;) That fact makes racism seem even sillier.

Eh. It might be more effective to point out that skin color isn't the best marker to gauge genetic similarity by. ;) That fact makes racism seem even sillier.

Yes, but people tend to ignore that.

And they do not believe that all whiteskinned humans are descended from black (or brown) skinned ones ?
What is their ancestral idea then ?The multiregional hypothesis.

So has anyone else have a similar family like mine, and have you ever thought about what would happen if you dated someone outside of your race?

Yes. My entire family on my mom's side is one gigantic redneck city. (Though thankfully neither of my parents are bigoted. They were once, but unlike my relatives they've changed over the years. I never even knew them when they were bigoted.)

And I've already dated someone outside my race before...fuck, 4/5's of my girlfriends have been nonwhite. No one who mattered gave a damn, and those who did give a damn can go fuck themselves.

Seriously...that's what I say to them all the time, because they're not willing to change. I tried to get them to change once. I tried discussing this stuff with them...I think I was nine at the time...and they just ridiculed me and treated me like a child.

...

Yes, I was a child, but that's not the point!

The multiregional hypothesis.

AFAIK that hypothesis still involves a common ancestor from Africa ;)
Unless you mean polygenism ?

My dad grew up in every small town outside San Antonio, so there was a different sort of racism in his childhood. I remember him telling me (as part of a discussion about the shittiness of racism) that his dad once told him "I'd rather see you come home with a ****** than a goddamn Meskin."

What's a Meskin?

What's a Meskin?

...

Don't be dense. It's the way his grandfather pronounced Mexican.

What's a Meskin?

Come on now, you can figure that out. :p

...

Don't be dense. It's the way his grandfather pronounced Mexican.

Sorry, I don't speak southwestern drawl, so I had difficulty pronouncing it. To me it sounded like Me-Skin. Or Mess-Kin.

Sorry, I don't speak southwestern drawl, so I had difficulty pronouncing it. To me it sounded like Me-Skin. Or Mess-Kin.
I don't either, but in the bloody context of the situation it was pretty obvious.

I don't either, but in the bloody context of the situation it was pretty obvious.

Well, the ****** comment also threw me off I suppose.

Well, the ****** comment also threw me off I suppose.

****** was the clue, though. The fact that he said ****** means that Meskin must, thusly, be either

A. A bigoted slur
B. An odd pronunciation of an ethnicity.

Either way, it was obvious, especially considering the location and the fact that Meskin is very similar to the word Mexican.

Really, Non-Aligned States, I thought you were smarter than that. Honestly.

Really, Non-Aligned States, I thought you were smarter than that. Honestly.

We all have our, as the saying goes around here, blur days. Today just happens to be one of mine. Nothing to take issue with.

We all have our, as the saying goes around here, blur days. Today just happens to be one of mine. Nothing to take issue with.

...

True enough. I'm sorry. I overreacted.

As most of you guys know, I live in the South, and as a result, I have family members on my mom side. (My dad side is saner) that were around in the Jim Crow era that are still alive (mainly my grandparents) and I also have some cousins that are also bigoted. I would like to say that they aren't racist, I really would because they're my family and I love them, but it's kinda hard to say that when they do say racist stuff. I have dated outside of my own race in the past and it never got serious enough to where I'd actually bring them to the family reunion on Christmas. However I have wondered what I would do if it did get serious enough to where I'd actually want to bring them to this Christmas reunion.

Personally I really don't care what they think, If a woman makes me happy, and if I make her happy, that's all that really should matter, and I'd probably tell this side of the family that if they don't like it, well they can just shove it up their asses.

So has anyone else have a similar family like mine, and have you ever thought about what would happen if you dated someone outside of your race?

Yep my dad a few of my many siblings can be bigoted at times, what can you do? They know my views I know theirs and for the sake of peace it hardly comes up when we are in each others company.

The exception of course being when alcohol is present, and then things get said, I say other things, and then the fight, and a few weeks later the making up.

*Shrug* life huh!

As most of you guys know, I live in the South, and as a result, I have family members on my mom side. (My dad side is saner) that were around in the Jim Crow era that are still alive (mainly my grandparents) and I also have some cousins that are also bigoted. I would like to say that they aren't racist, I really would because they're my family and I love them, but it's kinda hard to say that when they do say racist stuff. I have dated outside of my own race in the past and it never got serious enough to where I'd actually bring them to the family reunion on Christmas. However I have wondered what I would do if it did get serious enough to where I'd actually want to bring them to this Christmas reunion.

Personally I really don't care what they think, If a woman makes me happy, and if I make her happy, that's all that really should matter, and I'd probably tell this side of the family that if they don't like it, well they can just shove it up their asses.

So has anyone else have a similar family like mine, and have you ever thought about what would happen if you dated someone outside of your race?

My grandmother is an ultra-traditional woman that really dislikes the chinese for some reason, as well as just about every other minority. I always figured she'd disown me if I came out to her.

So I was talking with my mom, and it turns out she (my mother) outed me to just about everyone in my family a looooong time ago. I was kind of surprised, because there was no change in behavior from anyone.. I asked her about my grandmother, and mom said "She just chooses to forget it."

So you never know. People can be tolerant when they need to be; then again, I've never been to the South.

I've only ever dated "white" girls, mainly on the grounds my social circle is primarily white.

My relatives wouldn't really care who I was in a relationship with, though, provided it brought me happiness.

As most of you guys know, I live in the South, and as a result, I have family members on my mom side. (My dad side is saner) that were around in the Jim Crow era that are still alive (mainly my grandparents) and I also have some cousins that are also bigoted. I would like to say that they aren't racist, I really would because they're my family and I love them, but it's kinda hard to say that when they do say racist stuff. I have dated outside of my own race in the past and it never got serious enough to where I'd actually bring them to the family reunion on Christmas. However I have wondered what I would do if it did get serious enough to where I'd actually want to bring them to this Christmas reunion.

Personally I really don't care what they think, If a woman makes me happy, and if I make her happy, that's all that really should matter, and I'd probably tell this side of the family that if they don't like it, well they can just shove it up their asses.

So has anyone else have a similar family like mine, and have you ever thought about what would happen if you dated someone outside of your race?
I don't get this. Why do people think they must love people who are related to them by blood? Why do people assume that they must have relationships to people who are related to them by blood, even if those people are jerks?

I was brought up to believe that family means more than a coincidence of birth. I have plenty of blood relatives who are nothing more than cordial strangers to me, while several of my real family members share no biological link with me. You make your family. Choose wisely. Don't choose to include people who are unworthy of your trust, your respect, and your love.

I'm a Kiwi, and I've dated white Kiwi girls, Polynesian girls, Aussies, an Italian, a Scot, two Sri Lankans...

I'm fairly certain Scots, Italians and "Aussies" are all caucasoid, dude.

I was brought up to believe that family means more than a coincidence of birth. I have plenty of blood relatives who are nothing more than cordial strangers to me, while several of my real family members share no biological link with me. You make your family. Choose wisely. Don't choose to include people who are unworthy of your trust, your respect, and your love.

Unconditional love can't go one way. Try to pick and choose your family, and you might find that a lot of them don't want to pick you as theirs.

I have my differences with my family members, but I work around them, because I know that means I can count on them to do the same for me, and to get me out of trouble if I need it. If you have a family that loves you, you'll never be wanting for anything else.

Unconditional love can't go one way. Try to pick and choose your family, and you might find that a lot of them don't want to pick you as theirs.

I have my differences with my family members, but I work around them, because I know that means I can count on them to do the same for me, and to get me out of trouble if I need it. If you have a family that loves you, you'll never be wanting for anything else.

Why can I not do the same with friends? or is this just based on a belief that blood connections mean so much more and should be respected as such?

So has anyone else have a similar family like mine, and have you ever thought about what would happen if you dated someone outside of your race?

I have another type of bigotry to deal with in my family, racism is not part of it.

Why can I not do the same with friends? or is this just based on a belief that blood connections mean so much more and should be respected as such?

You can do the same with your friends. But we have a genetic predisposition to sticking with our family.. besides, who are you going to be closer to than the people who created you?

besides, who are you going to be closer to than the people who created you?

The people who will sacrifice things for me or who will love me, etc. Plenty of people are born to abusive parents. Should they show unconditional love to them based just on this?

No. Again, unconditional love can't, or at least shouldn't, be a one way thing.

Wouldn't that make it conditional love?

I love you unconditionally because you created me, but only if you're nice to me, and you have to love me back.

who are you going to be closer to than the people who created you?

Oh, I don't know, how about people who love one unconditionally?

The people who will sacrifice things for me or who will love me, etc. Plenty of people are born to abusive parents. Should they show unconditional love to them based just on this?

No. Again, unconditional love can't, or at least shouldn't, be a one way thing.

I don't get this. Why do people think they must love people who are related to them by blood? Why do people assume that they must have relationships to people who are related to them by blood, even if those people are jerks?

I was brought up to believe that family means more than a coincidence of birth. I have plenty of blood relatives who are nothing more than cordial strangers to me, while several of my real family members share no biological link with me. You make your family. Choose wisely. Don't choose to include people who are unworthy of your trust, your respect, and your love.

Heh like you get to choose who you love?

The people who will sacrifice things for me or who will love me, etc. Plenty of people are born to abusive parents. Should they show unconditional love to them based just on this?

I don't think it's a case of should they. Ask yourself can they choose not to?
I wish I could not love my Dad, he is not a nice man in lots of ways, *shrug* but I can't not love him, he is my dad.

Alright.. what I'm taking away from this thread is that my family life is vastly more fulfilling than a majority of people's. One more reason I love being me.

Nice bail out

Alright.. what I'm taking away from this thread is that my family life is vastly more fulfilling than a majority of people's. One more reason I love being me.

I don't think it's a case of should they. Ask yourself can they choose not to?
I wish I could not love my Dad, he is not a nice man in lots of ways, *shrug* but I can't not love him, he is my dad.

I think a lot of people would be able to tell that they hate their parents, so i'd say it is possible

Why can you not love him?

Alright.. what I'm taking away from this thread is that my family life is vastly more fulfilling than a majority of people's.

Only if you count your particular family constellation as the true one. I have a great family life with my real family, and not the one I was born into because the latter are horrible people. One more reason I love being me.

Heh like you get to choose who you love?

You get to choose not to keep loving them when you realise that you're one the verge of not doing so any more.

I think a lot of people would be able to tell that they hate their parents, so i'd say it is possible

I dare say it may well be possible for some. I can say that I hate my Dad. It would be a lie. I would dearly love to hate him, I can't really stand to be in his company for more than an hour or so, we certianly never see eye to eye about any thing. I guess we are both diaspionted in each other.

I really can't stand the man, but I'll always love him. I just can't help that.

Only if you count your particular family constellation as the true one. I have a great family life with my real family, and not the one I was born into because the latter are horrible people. One more reason I love being me.

Damn right. The only important thing in life is loving your own creation. At least that's what a hobo once told me before I cracked him one for coming too close (I warned him though, to be fair). But damned if he wasn't right. :)

Unconditional love can't go one way. Try to pick and choose your family, and you might find that a lot of them don't want to pick you as theirs.

Unconditional love absolutely can go one way. My parents have specifically told me as much.

More importantly, I don't WANT unconditional love. I don't offer it, and I don't ask for it. I prefer to know that the people who love me have actual standards, and that I am worthy of those standards.

But, most importantly of all, what does any of this have to do with blood? Why should you extend "unconditional love" to somebody simply because they are biologically related to you? What does this mean for children who are adopted? Or step-families? Why on Earth should genetic relatedness, as opposed to any other factor, be used to assign unconditional love?


I have my differences with my family members, but I work around them, because I know that means I can count on them to do the same for me, and to get me out of trouble if I need it.

Again, what does this have to do with what I was saying?

I'm the same way with my family. It's just that my family doesn't have to be restricted only to those who are biologically related to me. People who are my family members are family because of who they are and who they have been to me. I'm not going to brush them aside or value them less simply because chance made us biologically unrelated.


If you have a family that loves you, you'll never be wanting for anything else.
Now that's pure bunk. No matter how much your family loves you, if you're a normal human being you are going to want for a great many things throughout your life. It's insulting to suggest that any person who wants for things must lack a loving family.

You get to choose not to keep loving them when you realise that you're one the verge of not doing so any more.

Do you? I'm not so sure. People certianly do fall out of love, perhaps it is differant for each of us huh.

Actually, my mom and dad split; my mom married a guy that's really good to me and my dad is with a girl that's also really good to me (and though I have disagreements with her daughter and son, she is putting me up rent free). So.. I have a blood-related family that loves me and is great to me and *two* non-blood families that I get along really well with.

So?

Only if you count your particular family constellation as the true one. I have a great family life with my real family, and not the one I was born into because the latter are horrible people. One more reason I love being me.

Actually, my mom and dad split; my mom married a guy that's really good to me and my dad is with a girl that's also really good to me (and though I have disagreements with her daughter and son, she is putting me up rent free). So.. I have a blood-related family that loves me and is great to me and *two* non-blood families that I get along really well with.

As most of you guys know, I live in the South, and as a result, I have family members on my mom side. (My dad side is saner) that were around in the Jim Crow era that are still alive (mainly my grandparents) and I also have some cousins that are also bigoted. I would like to say that they aren't racist, I really would because they're my family and I love them, but it's kinda hard to say that when they do say racist stuff. I have dated outside of my own race in the past and it never got serious enough to where I'd actually bring them to the family reunion on Christmas. However I have wondered what I would do if it did get serious enough to where I'd actually want to bring them to this Christmas reunion.

Personally I really don't care what they think, If a woman makes me happy, and if I make her happy, that's all that really should matter, and I'd probably tell this side of the family that if they don't like it, well they can just shove it up their asses.

So has anyone else have a similar family like mine, and have you ever thought about what would happen if you dated someone outside of your race?

I dated outside my race when I was a teen, but their skin was light enough that my family didn't say much, they were pretty pissed that I married outside their religion though......they are a bunch of Irish Catholics (the kind that go to mass once every 10 years) and I married a Lavey Satanist, although he converted shortly after.....to be a protestant with me, so they still were really unhappy about that. I don't talk to them anymore though.

Unconditional love absolutely can go one way. My parents have specifically told me as much.

More importantly, I don't WANT unconditional love. I don't offer it, and I don't ask for it. I prefer to know that the people who love me have actual standards, and that I am worthy of those standards.

But, most importantly of all, what does any of this have to do with blood? Why should you extend "unconditional love" to somebody simply because they are biologically related to you? What does this mean for children who are adopted? Or step-families? Why on Earth should genetic relatedness, as opposed to any other factor, be used to assign unconditional love?


Again, what does this have to do with what I was saying?

I'm the same way with my family. It's just that my family doesn't have to be restricted only to those who are biologically related to me. People who are my family members are family because of who they are and who they have been to me. I'm not going to brush them aside or value them less simply because chance made us biologically unrelated.


Now that's pure bunk. No matter how much your family loves you, if you're a normal human being you are going to want for a great many things throughout your life. It's insulting to suggest that any person who wants for things must lack a loving family.

Look, I've been dealing with hostility all night and I'm way too annoyed to get into an argument. Forget I ever posted here.

I dated outside my race when I was a teen, but their skin was light enough that my family didn't say much, they were pretty pissed that I married outside their religion though......they are a bunch of Irish Catholics (the kind that go to mass once every 10 years) and I married a Levey Satanist, although he converted shortly after.....to be a protestant with me, so they still were really unhappy about that. I don't talk to them anymore though.

Hehe. :p I met one of those once - what a flake! Congrats on knocking a bit of sense into the guy. :)

Look, I've been dealing with hostility all night and I'm way too annoyed to get into an argument. Forget I ever posted here.

You've been dealing with people disagreeing with you. It's integral to debate

Unconditional love absolutely can go one way. My parents have specifically told me as much.

More importantly, I don't WANT unconditional love. I don't offer it, and I don't ask for it. I prefer to know that the people who love me have actual standards, and that I am worthy of those standards.

But, most importantly of all, what does any of this have to do with blood? Why should you extend "unconditional love" to somebody simply because they are biologically related to you? What does this mean for children who are adopted? Or step-families? Why on Earth should genetic relatedness, as opposed to any other factor, be used to assign unconditional love?


Again, what does this have to do with what I was saying?

I'm the same way with my family. It's just that my family doesn't have to be restricted only to those who are biologically related to me. People who are my family members are family because of who they are and who they have been to me. I'm not going to brush them aside or value them less simply because chance made us biologically unrelated.


Now that's pure bunk. No matter how much your family loves you, if you're a normal human being you are going to want for a great many things throughout your life. It's insulting to suggest that any person who wants for things must lack a loving family.

*steals for later*

Heh like you get to choose who you love?Do you automatically love a total stranger simply because you find out they share genetic relatedness with you? I don't. Love is a bond that forms over an extended period of time, and grows out of mutual trust, respect, and affection.

I don't love my parents because they are biologically related to me. I love them because they are my parents. Because they have nurtured me, helped me, played with me, loved me, and been my family for my entire life. If I found out tomorrow that I was actually adopted, it wouldn't make a tiny bit of difference to me.

It is the same for all my family. They are my family because they have been my family. Some of them happen to be biologically related to me. Others are not. So what? They are family because of who they have been to me and how we have grown to love and trust one another. If they weren't the people they are, they would never have become my family.

I have blood relatives who never became family with me. Some of them are jerks, but most of them are simply strangers to me. They're not bad people, they're just not people I've become family with. That's okay with me.

Do you automatically love a total stranger simply because you find out they share genetic relatedness with you? I don't. Love is a bond that forms over an extended period of time, and grows out of mutual trust, respect, and affection.

I don't love my parents because they are biologically related to me. I love them because they are my parents. Because they have nurtured me, helped me, played with me, loved me, and been my family for my entire life. If I found out tomorrow that I was actually adopted, it wouldn't make a tiny bit of difference to me.

It is the same for all my family. They are my family because they have been my family. Some of them happen to be biologically related to me. Others are not. So what? They are family because of who they have been to me and how we have grown to love and trust one another. If they weren't the people they are, they would never have become my family.

I have blood relatives who never became family with me. Some of them are jerks, but most of them are simply strangers to me. They're not bad people, they're just not people I've become family with. That's okay with me.

Bottle, do you believe that parents should/do automatically love their children because they are their children? or do you believe that's also a bond grown over time?

Hehe. :p I met one of those once - what a flake! Congrats on knocking a bit of sense into the guy. :)

Yeah, protestantism makes so much more sense...

You can do the same with your friends. But we have a genetic predisposition to sticking with our family..

What's this "we" stuff? I've never seen any evidence of such a predisposition in myself or my family.


besides, who are you going to be closer to than the people who created you?
How about the people who have nurtured me for my whole life? The people who have been a part of my life since before I can remember? The people I have loved and trusted since before I had words to describe those feelings? The people who have been there for me, loving and supportive, through the best and worst times of my life?

I don't particularly care if my mom's egg and my dad's sperm physically lead to the creation of the fertilized egg that would eventually become me. They're my parents regardless.

Yeah, protestantism makes so much more sense...

It's good to be a step back from the brink, even if you're still on the cliff, I say. :p

Do you automatically love a total stranger simply because you find out they share genetic relatedness with you? I don't. Love is a bond that forms over an extended period of time, and grows out of mutual trust, respect, and affection.

I don't love my parents because they are biologically related to me. I love them because they are my parents. Because they have nurtured me, helped me, played with me, loved me, and been my family for my entire life. If I found out tomorrow that I was actually adopted, it wouldn't make a tiny bit of difference to me.

It is the same for all my family. They are my family because they have been my family. Some of them happen to be biologically related to me. Others are not. So what? They are family because of who they have been to me and how we have grown to love and trust one another. If they weren't the people they are, they would never have become my family.

I have blood relatives who never became family with me. Some of them are jerks, but most of them are simply strangers to me. They're not bad people, they're just not people I've become family with. That's okay with me.


Hey Bottle,

I think you are focusing too much on that word should love their family. I think that we have very little choice in the matter. Like you say love grows, and when you grow up with people then no doubt your love for them grows.

Obvioulsy the people that most of us grow up with is our family, blood or otherwise. I merely question the amount of control we have over who we love. Do we really have a choice other than loving those that brought us up?

Yeah sure given the right circumstances you can possibly learn to un-love a family member, but do you have any choice in the matter of starting to love them?

Surly that starts as a small baby, when you look up into the face of the woman feeding you. What choice do we have? I would say very little indeed.

Hey Bottle,

I think you are focusing too much on that word should love their family. I think that we have very little choice in the matter. Like you say love grows, and when you grow up with people then no doubt your love for them grows.


It makes no difference if my parents are loving or abusive as long as I grew up with them?

Bottle, do you believe that parents should/do automatically love their children because they are their children? or do you believe that's also a bond grown over time?
Ideally, it would be great if parents automatically loved their kids! In reality, though, I think we have ample evidence that this is not always the case.

My father and mother have described the overwhelming love they felt for me (and my brother) from the first moment they held us. I think there certainly is an "instinctive" sort of attachment that a great many people feel for their newborns. But I don't think that's limited to biological kids. My aunt describes feeling the same thing the first time she held her adopted son.

Also, a newborn baby is the starting point for a developing person. A parent's relationship with their child will grow and change as the child does! A parent can't completely know their child on the day it's born, because the child has not yet developed into the full person they will be.

It's a lot like love between two adults (note: not necessarily romantic love!); your bond grows and changes as you grow and change together. Your experiences shape your love for each other. The parent-child relationship can be this but more so, since the child is starting from ground zero.

So I guess the short answer to your question is...both? Ideally, a parent will feel a "starting bond" with their child right from the get-go. However, the love between parent and child will also develop (or not develop :() based on their relationship over time.

It makes no difference if my parents are loving or abusive as long as I grew up with them?

Heh I love the way we all do that, myself included. Human nature I guess.

What am I talking about? Why this think of context. If you did not edit which of my words to copy into your reply, you would have found that this bit:

'Yeah sure given the right circumstances you can possibly learn to un-love a family member, but do you have any choice in the matter of starting to love them?

Surly that starts as a small baby, when you look up into the face of the woman feeding you. What choice do we have? I would say very little indeed.'

Adequatly answers your question. Which is to say I belive that we have little choice in loving our familes, even if they are abusive to us. Our love starts as a baby, and by the time we are old enough to understand abuse, we already love them.

My family was never very happy with me dating white guys, but they didn't really say much about it. It was more...a tension, when the boyfriend would ask stupid things about our culture, in a totally insensitive way. It was embarrassing, I stopped bringing white boys home, and I can't fault my parents for not being impressed.

I don't know...it was just cowboys and indians where I grew up. Maybe any other non-native group would have been as stupid.

So yeah, I didn't bring them home. Just fucked them in their cars :P
So, bottom line is that you just liked to have sex with stupid, insensitive white guys in their cars? Gotcha. :p

Hehe. :p I met one of those once - what a flake! Congrats on knocking a bit of sense into the guy. :)

he actually wasn't much different than he is now, since he is still pretty much an objectivist anyway.....however, his friends were f'ing stupid.

It's good to be a step back from the brink, even if you're still on the cliff, I say. :p

Protestantism still being on the cliff? Sure...

Ideally, it would be great if parents automatically loved their kids! In reality, though, I think we have ample evidence that this is not always the case.

My father and mother have described the overwhelming love they felt for me (and my brother) from the first moment they held us. I think there certainly is an "instinctive" sort of attachment that a great many people feel for their newborns. But I don't think that's limited to biological kids. My aunt describes feeling the same thing the first time she held her adopted son.

Also, a newborn baby is the starting point for a developing person. A parent's relationship with their child will grow and change as the child does! A parent can't completely know their child on the day it's born, because the child has not yet developed into the full person they will be.

It's a lot like love between two adults (note: not necessarily romantic love!); your bond grows and changes as you grow and change together. Your experiences shape your love for each other. The parent-child relationship can be this but more so, since the child is starting from ground zero.

So I guess the short answer to your question is...both? Ideally, a parent will feel a "starting bond" with their child right from the get-go. However, the love between parent and child will also develop (or not develop :() based on their relationship over time.
I think that first rush is more like infatuation than real love, it's excitement and fluff. It doesn't last forever (and doesn't come for everyone anyway) and it's after that when you get to know your kid that you can build a real relationship. People don't want to hear that though, they want to hear the "I love you because you are my kid and I have to" thing, I don't know why....it's not very complimentary. I would much rather tell the kids the truth "I love you because you are a very cool person and just the type of person I want to associate with"

Hehe. :p I met one of those once - what a flake! Congrats on knocking a bit of sense into the guy. :)

Ohh no disrespect to Smunkee's old man, but I know/knew a lot of these people and all that I can really say about the whole sphere of satanism is it's wanking for the ego.

Protestantism still being on the cliff? Sure...

Aren't we all on the cliff? Maybe a steep mesa, relative sanity being at the center. :)

Hehe. :p I met one of those once - what a flake! Congrats on knocking a bit of sense into the guy. :)

No. That's not knocking sense into anyone. That's taking someone from stupid to stupider. (No offense, Smunkee.)

Knocking sense into him would entail him becoming an atheist.

Hey Bottle,

I think you are focusing too much on that word should love their family. I think that we have very little choice in the matter. Like you say love grows, and when you grow up with people then no doubt your love for them grows.

My experience has been that people have as much choice in who they love as they have choice in who they associate with. You can choose not to form a bond with somebody, just as you can choose not to get to know somebody.


Obvioulsy the people that most of us grow up with is our family, blood or otherwise. I merely question the amount of control we have over who we love. Do we really have a choice other than loving those that brought us up?

I know many people who do not love those who brought them up. In some cases, I'd say they didn't really have the "choice" to love those people, since the people who brought them up were abusive assholes.

In other cases, I know people who simply don't like their parents. Personality conflict, I guess. There's a kind of a bond left, from the shared life experiences, but it's not really "love" in any meaningful sense. If you have enough conflict with your biological family members, it can kill any love that might otherwise have been there. Same as with non-family.


Yeah sure given the right circumstances you can possibly learn to un-love a family member, but do you have any choice in the matter of starting to love them?

It's not about choice, as far as I'm concerned. Love is not the default. Love is a bond that forms over time. That bond can fail to form for any number of reasons. There are conscious steps an individual can take which will prevent it from forming, but there are also plenty of unchosen events which can prevent it from forming.


Surly that starts as a small baby, when you look up into the face of the woman feeding you. What choice do we have? I would say very little indeed.
I don't feel that way.

I love my mother because of what I remember of her. I don't remember anything from when I was a small baby. I know, for a fact, that other people fed me while I was a small baby. People who I have no memory of, and do not love.

I think that first rush is more like infatuation than real love, it's excitement and fluff. It doesn't last forever (and doesn't come for everyone anyway) and it's after that when you get to know your kid that you can build a real relationship.

I certainly could agree with that. I didn't use the word "infatuation" because it has romantic overtones, and I didn't know how else to express it.

My parents absolutely were infatuated with me as a baby. But that infatuation might never have resulted in love, had my parents not been the groovy people that they are.

Put it another way: the infatuation my parents initially felt is what helped them to be good parents to me. They WANTED to hold me and play with me and nurture me. Because they did those things, they bonded with me, and I with them.

The infatuation, itself, wasn't love. By itself, it would never have become love. But the actions it inspired and encouraged DID lead to our bond and our love for each other.


People don't want to hear that though, they want to hear the "I love you because you are my kid and I have to" thing, I don't know why....it's not very complimentary. I would much rather tell the kids the truth "I love you because you are a very cool person and just the type of person I want to associate with"
EXACTLY!

As most of you guys know, I live in the South, and as a result, I have family members on my mom side. (My dad side is saner) that were around in the Jim Crow era that are still alive (mainly my grandparents) and I also have some cousins that are also bigoted. I would like to say that they aren't racist, I really would because they're my family and I love them, but it's kinda hard to say that when they do say racist stuff. I have dated outside of my own race in the past and it never got serious enough to where I'd actually bring them to the family reunion on Christmas. However I have wondered what I would do if it did get serious enough to where I'd actually want to bring them to this Christmas reunion.

Personally I really don't care what they think, If a woman makes me happy, and if I make her happy, that's all that really should matter, and I'd probably tell this side of the family that if they don't like it, well they can just shove it up their asses.

So has anyone else have a similar family like mine, and have you ever thought about what would happen if you dated someone outside of your race?

We had a funeral for a young distant relative last fall. The whole extended family showed up for the funeral (it's a good time afterwards, even if we are a bit sad that someone checked out early).

About 300 people in all showed up. Roughly 1/3 Koreans, 1/3 white rednecks, and 1/3 African-Americans. We are family, and many of us are so thoroughly mixed that it's hard to tell what "race" the government thinks we are.

The family also varies widely in economic class, and that's never presented a problem, either.

We also have a monthly bowling night, when an average of 80 of us will show up and take over the bowling alley. Once again, throughly mixed.

Eventually, more families will be like this - everyone will be assimilated to the extent that it doesn't matter anymore. Yours will as well.

*snip the usual "my family is mixed race, everything is a-ok, I'm not racist yada yada"*
Koreans and black people are ok, just don't date any Middle Easterners or Mexicans. I think we touched on this on the second page...

Your redneck family will always be racist and talk behind your back. Do what you want and if they speak up tell them where to stick it.

Koreans and black people are ok, just don't date any Middle Easterners or Mexicans. I think we touched on this on the second page...

The Salvadorans are slowly coming into the family. Most of the young people in the family are dating them.

Once again, not a problem.

Your redneck family will always be racist and talk behind your back. Do what you want and if they speak up tell them where to stick it.

That's false. Probably the least bigoted people you could possibly find.

How are white rednecks bigoted when they marry blacks and Koreans, and have children by them?

Eh?

That's false. Probably the least bigoted people you could possibly find.

How are white rednecks bigoted when they marry blacks and Koreans, and have children by them?

Eh?

Probably directed at the OP.

The Salvadorans are slowly coming into the family. Most of the young people in the family are dating them.

Once again, not a problem.
Neither Mexican or Middle Eastern.

I'm very lucky in that I grew up with a very accepting family. 'Twas not always so, however.

My father's side of the family had some issues with "race", if you could even call it that. My paternal grandfather, an alcoholic whom I thankfully never knew, was a firm believer in the ideology that there were two kinds of people: the Irish, and everyone else. My grandmother, who lives to this day, however is FAR more sane. To the point of contradicting her husband, whom she eventually divorced, she instilled values of acceptance in her children, and that is reflected today in their daily lives.

My mother's side was a different story. My maternal grandmother had issues with "race relations", and only changed her views after my aunt started dating someone other than a white boy. I don't have any contact with my maternal family; my mother has effectively severed the connections. While "race" became less of an issue, many, MANY other problems persisted.

I'm glad though that I grew up with the side of the family that appreciates differences and values equality in all things.

The older generation in my extended family are what I'd call "genteel bigots," meaning that they're bigoted as hell but will only say rude things about people behind their backs. To people's faces, they're friendly, polite and accepting. So, hypocrites and liars as well as bigots. They don't specialize in racism, either - they can be bigoted against just about anyone who is different from themselves.

How do I handle it? Mostly I ignore it. With such a potentially vicious group of people as my family, peace is maintained by the old saying, "least said, soonest mended."

For instance, my grandmother had a cute habit. Any time she was talking about someone the rest of us didn't know well - her co-workers or old friends, etc - she would make a point of mentioning their race, ethnicity, and/or religion (totally irrelevant to the story she was telling) and then qualify it by saying, "but a nice one." For example, "I was talking to Anita at work - she's a black girl, but a nice one..." What are you going to do with someone like that - challenge them about what they mean by that every time they say it? A few times, my mom challenged grandma about it, and you should have seen the acrobatics of Offended Innocence (tm) my grandma responded with. What she meant was perfectly clear, even if she denied it, so what point was there in questioning it?

However, on rare occasions, one of the bigots will get carried away and this usually leads to uncomfortable silences at the dinner table. Again, I usually ignore it and let the silence take the wind out of them, but if it doesn't, then I am typically the first person in the group to confront them. I do it in a way calculated to shut them up, not start a debate.

Example: My mom's 2nd husband was Jewish and from Israel. There was absolutely seamless acceptance of him in the family - as long as he was in the room. When he was absent, no one would say anything bad about him, but my grandfather - a king troublemaker - would launch into anti-Jewish tirades about The Jewish Conspiracy - a piece of paranoid bullshit he didn't even believe in. On two occasions, he really got the bit in his teeth and would not shut up about it for upwards of an hour, until I, without responding to anything he actually said, merely commented loudly and clearly, the first time, "I had no idea I was having dinner with a Nazi," and the second time, "Grandpa, you really are a droning bore. Don't you ever get tired of your own voice?"

In each case, the result was that my grandfather instantly retreated into a furious silence - so offended by me that he refused to speak for the rest of the meal - which was a great relief to the rest of us.

EDIT: Btw, if I am bringing home a friend or boyfriend of another race/religion/etc, I usually warn them about my family's little social quirk beforehand. I hardly ever introduce my friends/lovers to my family anyway. I'm a grown-up and don't need their approval. I will only do it if the other person insists on meeting them. Once the duty-visit is done, it need never be repeated.

My dad makes prejudiced comments a lot. For example, often when there's a black or asian person on the news (Particularly if it's on a race-related story) he'll put on a Pakistani accent and make some mock islamic comments or an African accent and talk about "De white honkies". And three days ago we were driving past and there were a few black people and one white guy working in a garden and he remarked that it looked like something out of a Caribbean sugar plantation. Said the only thing missing was de white honkie carrying a whip and the black people singing. He doesn't seem to be really racist though, most of those comments seem to be more jokey. He does seem to have a real grudge against muslims though. And he has spoken approvingly of Apartheid in South Africa. Homophobic as well, hates camp TV presenters and often puts on a lisp to make jokey gay comments. Also quite sexist, talks about how certain jobs are 'man's work'. Gets it from his dad I think, he's very much like that.