NationStates Jolt Archive

I can't believe this hasn't been brought up yet...
Prime Minister Gordon Brown has said the UK will make "no apologies" for expelling four Russian diplomats.

The decision follows Moscow's refusal to hand over the former KGB agent accused of murdering Alexander Litvinenko in London last year.

Mr Brown said that because "there is no forthcoming co-operation, then action has to be taken".

The Kremlin said the decision was "immoral" and warned of "serious consequences" for the UK.
Source (BBC) (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6901847.stm)

OK, so in light of worsening tensions between Russia and the west, Russia's decision to place missiles aimed at Europe, and in particular Russia's decision to suspend a treaty regulating the deployment of heavy forces in Europe, this can't be a good thing.

Let's not forget that much of Europe gets its energy from Russia. This could be fairly important.

*sighs*

We should give them Berezovski and be done with it all.

Yay Cold War!

I'm usually quite adamant about justice, in this case justice for Litvinenko and his family, but perhaps we're pushing Putin too far. Maybe we should just stop pushing for Lugovoy's extradition.

We shouldn't give up Berezovski though.

This is needless provocation: the British government knew the Russians would never give up Lugovoi because it is against the Russian constitution to extradite citizens for trial abroad. Clearly, the British government (along with the other Europeans and the Americans) want a confrontation with the Russians: they are most probably bitter that Russia did not remain abject in the mud and is beginning to recover its position.

This is needless provocation: the British government knew the Russians would never give up Lugovoi because it is against the Russian constitution to extradite citizens for trial abroad. Clearly, the British government (along with the other Europeans and the Americans) want a confrontation with the Russians: they are most probably bitter that Russia did not remain abject in the mud and is beginning to recover its position.

Murdering our citizens was provocation; demanding the extradition of the suspect is justice.

This is needless provocation: the British government knew the Russians would never give up Lugovoi because it is against the Russian constitution to extradite citizens for trial abroad. Clearly, the British government (along with the other Europeans and the Americans) want a confrontation with the Russians: they are most probably bitter that Russia did not remain abject in the mud and is beginning to recover its position.


I don't think that is the case. If a country decides not to deal honestly and clearly with another country then politicaly speaking sanctions or other actions have to be taken. Perhaps Browns hands are tied and he could really react in no other way.

Russia would crack the rest of Europe open like a walnut in the event of an actual war, but I doubt very much that only Europe would be involved in such a conflict.

This is actually just the latest in a long series of fall-outs with the Russkies. They've been getting into all kinds of arguments with the eastern European nations over gas pipelines, the EU, statues of Red Army murderers and a host of other things.

It is beginning to look a little like the calm before the storm.

Alexander Litvinenko and Berezovski have dangerous links to organized crime and the elite business interests in Russia, most of whom want to sell Russia down the creek with privatization just like Yeltsin did, and help the West gang rape the Eastern bloc to pay their debt, and then the dodgy privatization of Soviet assets in an atmosphere of corruption saw over a million Russians dead and millions more thrown below the poverty line, Yeltsin and his oligarchic cronies like Berezovski deserve whatever fate Putin gives them, even if it is a bit of Polonium in their tea.

Murdering our citizens was provocation; demanding the extradition of the suspect is justice.

Not to mention the method of murder - highly radioactive materials. Putting a lot of UK citizens at risk even if they weren't the intended target.

Holy shit. It's going down.

This is needless provocation: the British government knew the Russians would never give up Lugovoi because it is against the Russian constitution to extradite citizens for trial abroad. Clearly, the British government (along with the other Europeans and the Americans) want a confrontation with the Russians: they are most probably bitter that Russia did not remain abject in the mud and is beginning to recover its position.
I don't remember Britain, Europe or America hurling Polonium-210 around Russian dissidents in Britain. We have every right to demand the extradition of those thought to be responsible for trial. It's not provocation - Russia's constitution is it's problem, not ours.

Sneaky fucking Russians.

It's rumoured that the Russians might expel 80 British diplomats in retaliation.

What is the Foreign Office to do? There was a Russian state sanctioned murder in London, but there is no way the Russians will give the suspect up. All they can do is try and make a bit of noise to be seen to be protesting, until the issue goes away.

All I know is that anything that starts between Russia and anyone else will result in a World War.

It's rumoured that the Russians might expel 80 British diplomats in retaliation.
Keep Foreign Office costs down.

Us:1 Russia:0. ;)

I can't say I'm particularly bothered about Litvinenko, but going spreading radiation around Britain can't be tolerated. I think the government is right to do this, but the whole thing could have been avoided. The Russians would probably have been willing to trade Lugovoi for Boris Berezovsky and Akhmed Zakayev. Those two aren't exactly great assets to this country so it would have been a win-win sitation for Britain.

Fuck Putin. Whiny fucking bastard doesn't get his way and bitches about it, then bitches again when he throws a tantrum and pisses people off.

Sure, a Cold War would effectively suck ass for everyone right about now, but if it's gotta happen it's gotta happen. Personally I've been waiting for a nuclear winter for a while now, it's a long time coming.

Keep Foreign Office costs down.

Us:1 Russia:0. ;)

Enjoy your 20 pound/litre gasoline. Just HOW effecient are those European cars again?

Enjoy your 20 pound/litre gasoline. Just HOW effecient are those European cars again?
I was being sarcastic...

Or WERE you?
(Dramatic chord)
Hence the ;)

I was being sarcastic...

Or WERE you?
(Dramatic chord)

Why is everyone jumping to the conclusion that this could lead to international war? Are things between Russia and the UK so bad that the next step after this is bombing? Lots of "international incidents" flash big and bright and then just end. Personally, I think expelling the diplomats was too extreme a step, unless the UK has some evidence against them in the case, but even if the Russians then expel British diplomats, so what?

Enjoy your 20 pound/litre gasoline. Just HOW effecient are those European cars again?

Then less people drive and the environment is the eventual winner :p (Sarcasm)

Why is everyone jumping to the conclusion that this could lead to international war? Are things between Russia and the UK so bad that the next step after this is bombing? Lots of "international incidents" flash big and bright and then just end. Personally, I think expelling the diplomats was too extreme a step, unless the UK has some evidence against them in the case, but even if the Russians then expel British diplomats, so what?

Extreme? They have evidence that Lugovoi administered the Polonium to Litvinenko and the radioactive poison used could have injured many innocent people in London. The Russsians should never have done what they did and as Litvinenko is a British citizen, we have every right to demand that his killer be brought to justice in our courts. Russia's constitution is not our problem, we just want to bring Lugovoi to justice in a British Court for his crimes.

Hence the ;)
Just a clever attempt to disguise your TRUE feelings on the matter, I thinK!

Then less people drive and the environment is the eventual winner :p (Sarcasm)

Oh no, you are QUITE mistaken. You see, European cars dont emit Co2 or any other envrionmentally detremental products. In fact, the Mini emits only nitrous oxide as part of a government program to cheer up people in London.
Of course, there is that whole business with the being highly flammable and all that, but theres hardly any IMPORTANT wooden buildings in London, so that doesnt really matter :D

This is needless provocation: the British government knew the Russians would never give up Lugovoi because it is against the Russian constitution to extradite citizens for trial abroad. Clearly, the British government (along with the other Europeans and the Americans) want a confrontation with the Russians: they are most probably bitter that Russia did not remain abject in the mud and is beginning to recover its position.

*yawn*

Couldn't care less. Putin will, and should, do what is in the interests of Russia, not a happy-clappy inclusive new world order.

*yawn*

Couldn't care less. Putin will, and should, do what is in the interests of Russia, not a happy-clappy inclusive new world order.

Good relations with other countries would be good for Russia

*yawn*

Couldn't care less. Putin will, and should, do what is in the interests of Russia, not a happy-clappy inclusive new world order.

I think it'd be in Russia's best interests to not piss everyone off.

Extreme? They have evidence that Lugovoi administered the Polonium to Litvinenko and the radioactive poison used could have injured many innocent people in London. The Russsians should never have done what they did and as Litvinenko is a British citizen, we have every right to demand that his killer be brought to justice in our courts. Russia's constitution is not our problem, we just want to bring Lugovoi to justice in a British Court for his crimes.
Yeah, duh, no kidding. But unless those particular diplomats were involved in the murder plot, there was really little reason to expel them - unless the UK plans to shut down the entire Russian embassy and sever ties/communications with that nation. And frankly, this kind of extradition flap is not normally considered enough to warrant that. It is enough to affect political, trade and military deals, as well as other legal give-and-take relations, and often does between nations as they try to pressure each other into giving way.

But you don't answer my question: How is any of this expected to result in international war?

Yes, a UK citizen was murdered in the UK by Russian agents. Yes, the Russian government is refusing to give up the killer. So? Unless you can prove that it was done specifically as an attack on the UK, I don't see how it can be whipped up into anything more than an international insult and a violation of certain treaties, which can be responded to very effectively in ways other than war.

In short, I think that expelling the Russian diplomats was extreme because it skipped steps in the usual diplomatic process. Like jumping from a double-dare to a triple-dog-dare, ignoring the 2 kinds of dare in between them.

I wonder... Has anyone considered Bush might have something to say about all this...? And knowing him...

I wonder... Has anyone considered Bush might have something to say about all this...? And knowing him...

Have you considered that the world does not revolve around when Bush wipes his ass?

Have you considered that this matter is between the UK and Russia?

Have you considered that it was a murder in the UK, and that the UK possesses sufficient evidence to bring a suspect to trial?

A murder committed with lethal radioactive material?

Or that the Russians can't extradite the suspect without modifying their own Constitution?

Are you thinking, perhaps, that Bush secretly wrote the Russian constitution, and killed the poor chap himself with radioactive material?

Would that satisfy your paranoia?

I wonder... Has anyone considered Bush might have something to say about all this...? And knowing him...

Ah, poor Bush, what shall he do? On the one hand, the British are his good friends and allies without whom he couldn't have carried out even half his foreign "policy" (stern and angry look at the UK). On the other hand, there's Putin, whose soul Bush looked into and determined to be good during their first 20-minute conversation. I suppose it would be too much to hope that Bush will opt for just keeping his mouth shut about something that's really not his business.

Have you considered ... paranoia?

UN Protectorates, now look what you've done. You said the secret word, "Bush," and now the thread is in danger of being hijacked. It's like magic - you didn't even have to bash Bush to get the immediate effect.

Let's be clear: Anything Bush has to say about this will be irrelevant and presumptuous, because he is not connected to it, he can't resolve it, and it has nothing to do with the US relations with either the UK or Russia.

Have you considered that the world does not revolve around when Bush wipes his ass?

Have you considered that this matter is between the UK and Russia?

Have you considered that it was a murder in the UK, and that the UK possesses sufficient evidence to bring a suspect to trial?

A murder committed with lethal radioactive material?

Or that the Russians can't extradite the suspect without modifying their own Constitution?

Are you thinking, perhaps, that Bush secretly wrote the Russian constitution, and killed the poor chap himself with radioactive material?

Would that satisfy your paranoia?

Ah, poor Bush, what shall he do? On the one hand, the British are his good friends and allies without whom he couldn't have carried out even half his foreign "policy" (stern and angry look at the UK). On the other hand, there's Putin, whose soul Bush looked into and determined to be good during their first 20-minute conversation. I suppose it would be too much to hope that Bush will opt for just keeping his mouth shut about something that's really not his business.

You're forgetting that the US has business with Russia because of their stance on the decision to place anti-missile defenses in Europe. If Russia starts shit with other countries as well, they have to take that into account.

Exactly. Russia and US have been having a pissing contest over the missile defense site for a few months.

Have you considered that the world does not revolve around when Bush wipes his ass?

Have you considered that this matter is between the UK and Russia?

Have you considered that it was a murder in the UK, and that the UK possesses sufficient evidence to bring a suspect to trial?

A murder committed with lethal radioactive material?

Or that the Russians can't extradite the suspect without modifying their own Constitution?

Are you thinking, perhaps, that Bush secretly wrote the Russian constitution, and killed the poor chap himself with radioactive material?

Would that satisfy your paranoia?



OMG. I cannot believe you actually think I'm saying Bush has anything to do with this. That is my point!

Not too long ago Bush stepped on Putin's toes diplomatically by declaring that:

"In Russia, reforms that once promised to empower citizens have been derailed, with troubling implications for democratic development."

This is just one of a number of statements Bush has made that directly criticises Putin's Russia. Whilst I agree that Russia is indeed turning towards Totalitarianism, any diplomat worth his salt would know not to say this to Putin, indirectly or otherwise. It's called being diplomatic.

This is another instance at which Bush could decide to make another petty point.

If you read into the G8 conferences of recent years, you would know that Putin and Bush have many differences in opinion. They do not have a good personal relationship.

I predict Bush will indeed make a petty jab at Putin over this recent event, despite this having nothing to do with him or the US.

UN Protectorates, now look what you've done. You said the secret word, "Bush," and now the thread is in danger of being hijacked. It's like magic - you didn't even have to bash Bush to get the immediate effect.



Sorry... :(

Exactly. Russia and US have been having a pissing contest over the missile defense site for a few months.

They can piss all they like - it's apparently going to be built (at least the one in Poland) by next year.

OMG. I cannot believe you actually think I'm saying Bush has anything to do with this. That is my point!

Not too long ago Bush stepped on Putin's toes diplomatically by declaring that:

"In Russia, reforms that once promised to empower citizens have been derailed, with troubling implications for democratic development."

This is just one of a number of statements Bush has made that directly criticises Putin's Russia. Whilst I agree that Russia is indeed turning towards Totalitarianism, any diplomat worth his salt would know not to say this to Putin, indirectly or otherwise. It's called being diplomatic.

This is another instance at which Bush could decide to make another petty point.

If you read into the G8 conferences of recent years, you would know that Putin and Bush have many differences in opinion. They do not have a good personal relationship.

I predict Bush will indeed make a petty jab at Putin over this recent event, despite this having nothing to do with him or the US.

I could read into the personal meetings between Bush and Putin that they have a great relationship, and that everything else is just window dressing for people like you to be completely distracted while they both make tons of money under the table.

I could read into the personal meetings between Bush and Putin that they have a great relationship, and that everything else is just window dressing for people like you to be completely distracted while they both make tons of money under the table.

Err... Okay... How about the recent Anti-Ballistic Missile System in former Czecheslovakia and Poland? Russian interference in Eastern Europe? Russian nuclear material being exported to Iran?

There's plenty issues that Putin and Bush are at odds on.

You're forgetting that the US has business with Russia because of their stance on the decision to place anti-missile defenses in Europe. If Russia starts shit with other countries as well, they have to take that into account.
So, let him send US diplomats to try to assist in facilitating a resolution. But I see no reason for Bush to make any statement about it. Anyway, isn't this what the Danes and Norwegians are for?

Frankly, if Bush wants people to say he did something smart, he'll keep his mouth shut about this in public.

Err... Okay... How about the recent Anti-Ballistic Missile System in former Czecheslovakia and Poland? Russian interference in Eastern Europe? Russian nuclear material being exported to Iran?

There's plenty issues that Putin and Bush are at odds on.

How about Putin offering a radar site for use?
How about Bush offering Russia complete on-site access to the missile defense site 24/7 365 days a year?

I think that they're carving up the world.

Say what?

Did you miss Bush's silent wink and nod to Putin's continuous crushing of Chechnya? Ah, the "War on Terror"!

I don't remember Britain, Europe or America hurling Polonium-210 around Russian dissidents in Britain. We have every right to demand the extradition of those thought to be responsible for trial. It's not provocation - Russia's constitution is it's problem, not ours.

The British government made a demand that they knew could not possibly be met. As such, the demand was unnecessary and thus we can conclude that the British government wanted a confrontation with Putin's Russia. Just as America has been deliberately baiting the Russians with the missile shield they are installing in the former Eastern Block.

Quite why the West persists in offending the Russians is a mystery, however. Not only are the Russians sitting pretty on Europe's main supply of energy for the next few decades but they are natural allies in the current geopolitical situation: they have historically been opposed to China (they were constantly at each other's throats even when they both supposedly shared the same official ideology) and they have their own problem with Islamic terrorists. But I suppose the West is too busy combating the non-existent evil of the Russian bogey man to be bothered with being rational in their foreign policy.

Also, it should be noted that there is nothing definitive connecting the Russian government to the murder. In my opinion, the murder was probably committed by Litvinenko's enemies in the FSB, acting without state approval. You might say that, if this is the case, Putin has nothing to fear by extraditing Lugovoi. But this is not so. Firstly, he would have to alter the Russian constitution in order to make a concession to a foreign (and western) power: this would probably not be a popular move, either in the Duma or amongst the Russian public in general. Secondly, Lugovoi's testimonial could prove to be highly embarrassing to Putin, both at home and on the international stage. It could reveal just how badly the FSB has spiralled out of the control of the central government and that would be very damaging for Putin. Lugovoi might also be in the possession of Russian state secrets, secrets he might be willing to trade with the British authorities in return for a lessening of the charges or some other concession. Thus, Putin's refusal to extradite Lugovoi is not a confession of guilt in the murder: he has some very good political reasons for not doing so.

Putin being a dick as usual.

I think it'd be in Russia's best interests to not piss everyone off.

I disagree. If Putin can cast himself as the defender of Russian interests against an inimical world, he gains great electoral currency, and frankly, Russia has little logistical need for the west's friendship.

I disagree. If Putin can cast himself as the defender of Russian interests against an inimical world, he gains great electoral currency, and frankly, Russia has little logistical need for the west's friendship.

Think of the UK/Russia problem this way.

He can sell oil and gas to the rest of the EU, who will gladly buy it with both hands.

He can cut the UK off from those sales.

Putin makes money. I'm sure it would hurt the UK.

As for the US, if we don't get involved in the UK thing, we get to buy oil and gas from Russia.

We get to put a bogeyman in Poland and the Czech Republic for Putin to crow about to his electorate. The common Russian need not know that Russian officers will be standing there in the control center of the missile site.

Think of the UK/Russia problem this way.

He can sell oil and gas to the rest of the EU, who will gladly buy it with both hands.

He can cut the UK off from those sales.

Putin makes money. I'm sure it would hurt the UK.


The UK currently gets a minimal level of gas from Russia, currently about 2% of UK natural gas use; nowhere near the scale of some other European countries.

The UK currently gets a minimal level of gas from Russia, currently about 2% of UK natural gas use; nowhere near the scale of some other European countries.

In the future, you might want more.

You also have multinational oil companies like BP, who is apparently being cut out of Russian deals.

In the future, you might want more.

You also have multinational oil companies like BP, who is apparently being cut out of Russian deals.

Well, that's why the government is considering going as nuclear as possible. Seems sensible to me.

Countries (like France) do some pretty messed up stuff (like industrial espionage) to each other all the time, still it is a pretty rare for countries to expel diplomats. This is certainly an interesting time in which we live.

In the future, you might want more.

You also have multinational oil companies like BP, who is apparently being cut out of Russian deals.
We've got plenty of Uranium in and around the Orkneys, we could go nuclear without that much hassle if people would stop complaining about it all.

you said on my question about how things work, that you would "sell" me a colony. 1st of all, how do i know how much money i have? second of all, how do i know that i have this colony, and how do other people know?

I can't believe this hasn't been brought up yet...

Source (BBC) (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6901847.stm)

OK, so in light of worsening tensions between Russia and the west, Russia's decision to place missiles aimed at Europe, and in particular Russia's decision to suspend a treaty regulating the deployment of heavy forces in Europe, this can't be a good thing.

Let's not forget that much of Europe gets its energy from Russia. This could be fairly important.

About time the British government stopped letting other countries fuck with them. Heh you could be forgiven for thinking Brown will make a good PM after all - but he's probably only doing stuff like this for political points and going to be as bad as (or worse than) Blair if he gets elected (you know, that voting thing - instead of being made PM without so much as a consultation with the public).

Lol @ all the hearts bleeding because that traitor and oligarch got pwned by radiation.

Die, zombie thread, DIE!