NationStates Jolt Archive

In the US, your safety in prison, if you're in the general population, often cannot be guaranteed. While your assailants may indeed be identified and punished (plenty of CCTV), it may not always be possible to rescue a prisoner in an interval that the prisoner considers "timely".

The only prisoners that may be considered safe from abuse by other prisoners is the prisoner in permanent solitary confinement in a Supermax - and then they have to worry about the guards (there are safeguards in place, but I imagine that abuses can still happen there).

So, in the US, we might argue that if other prisoners want to abuse you, and especially if the guards wish to abuse you, that it's probably going to happen - if you have the same protection level as other prisoners.

We have this news story. It's from the UK. I don't know how the UK runs its prisons, but I imagine they have the same policies on "protection" of prisoners, and that the level of protection of prisoners is fairly applied, and cannot always be guaranteed if the prisoner is in the general population.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUKL169035020070716

Arani said the attack on Barot raised fears that Muslim prisoners would be targeted in jail and accused the prison authorities of not doing enough to protect them.

"We are not asking for preferential treatment for Muslim prisoners -- what we are requesting is that Muslim prisoners should be afforded the same protection as other prisoners," she said.

I am willing to bet that Muslim prisoners in the UK most certainly are, from a policy standpoint, afforded the same protection as other prisoners.

If he wants to be safe, perhaps he should request permanent transfer to the UK equivalent of a Supermax isolation cell.

It's too bad prisoners don't all work together. I sure as hell would if I was in prison. It'd be the most perfect community ever, minus the freedom.

It's too bad prisoners don't all work together. I sure as hell would if I was in prison. It'd be the most perfect community ever, minus the freedom.

Considering the strength of gangs in prison, it looks like many of them do.

It appears to be bad for people who aren't in the dominant gang.

Examples of gangs in US prisons (Florida example)

Waiting for pantless to say this is a right-wing blog...

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/pub/gangs/prison.html

I think what the lawyer wants is maybe to have prison guards watching minority groups and such, especially those at risk (course the government won't do this because its bat shit insane when it comes to prison)

and no being put in permanent solitary isn't some magical fun happy pill, you are isolated form human contact which is a very crappy thing

I think the prison system as a whole sucks.

What we have is an entire institution of publicly funded waste.

I'd rather see the criminal justice system changed into a system where convicts can become productive. Using any skills or abilities they have to work off their debt to society rather than just sit in a cell consuming public resources.

For example, someone who steals a $35,000 car ought to be put to work until they've worked off their $35,000 debt. Additionally, they should have the choice of allocating some portion of the money they generate to sustain their families or pay off their own private debts. This enables them to continue to meet existing obligations and responsibilities while working off their debt to society.

Someone who murders or rapes would have their work produce finds that would go toward benefitting the victim or victim's family in some useful and tangible way, like providing for college for the victim's children or paying their rent/mortages, etc.

In such a system, only those who are truly unmanageable would sit and rot in prisons, and many of the issues raised by the OP's article would be minimized because the convicts wouldn't have nearly as much free time to cause trouble.

Furthermore, most inmates who kill or severely assault other inmates are lifers who have little to lose because they'll never see the outside anyway. With reforms lik ethose I'm suggesting, that would/could be less of a factor.

I think what the lawyer wants is maybe to have prison guards watching minority groups and such, especially those at risk (course the government won't do this because its bat shit insane when it comes to prison)

and no being put in permanent solitary isn't some magical fun happy pill, you are isolated form human contact which is a very crappy thing

But adding extra guards for minority groups is asking for "extra" protection - not asking for the "same" level of protection as other prisoners.

Examples of gangs in US prisons (Florida example)

this is the U.K its a very different beast, are prisons work on a person to person basis with no large gangs forming

to say the least prison politics tends to emulate world politics rather well

I'd rather see the criminal justice system changed into a system where convicts can become productive. Using any skills or abilities they have to work off their debt to society rather than just sit in a cell consuming public resources.

not profitable, dangerous and takes time away from rehabilitation courses (course it will get you off to know that small jobs can be taken)

But adding extra guards for minority groups is asking for "extra" protection - not asking for the "same" level of protection as other prisoners.

on the contrary if say white groups where the minority they would be protected, as there is a deep fear of race wars hitting the news

not profitable, dangerous and takes time away from rehabilitation courses (course it will get you off to know that small jobs can be taken)

I know small jobs can be taken, but the scale is far too small. Not profitable? As opposed to what, the way things are now? Dangerous? Possibly, but this thread is all about the danger of the existing system. Rehabilitatiopn courses? There's plenty of time for that in a 40-hour work week.

I know small jobs can be taken, but the scale is far too small. Not profitable? As opposed to what, the way things are now?

far less profitable than now, prisons try to keep inmates happy and calm (which is why prisons tend to get a tad smokey from all the pot) because it cuts down on riots etc which allows for a more lax security (you can more or less figure the rest out)

forcing inmates into slavery (and if you want to look at it in the long term as well damaging there chances of finding future work) tends to piss people off

Dangerous? Possibly, but this thread is all about the danger of the existing system.

which is dangerous because prisons are overcrowded and ultimately failures

Rehabilitatiopn courses? There's plenty of time for that in a 40-hour work week.

things run very slow in prisons, there is already strain on the getting back to work classes and leisure time

It's too bad prisoners don't all work together. I sure as hell would if I was in prison. It'd be the most perfect community ever, minus the freedom.

End up running the wings, with a quartermaster in charge of food quality....Have to bump off a prison guard or two and maybe hand them the address of their houses, the houses they moved to after the last time you gave them the address of their house...

In the US, your safety in prison, if you're in the general population, often cannot be guaranteed.

though clearly it could be better protected...if prisons were a different sort of institution and had a different purpose than their actual one.

though clearly it could be better protected...if prisons were a different sort of institution and had a different purpose than their actual one.

Well, I don't think that prisons serve a rehabilitation function, even when there are rehabilitation programs.

The failed experiments of the 1980s and 1990s proved that.

They provide no restitution to victims in any sense.

I think they should be redesigned for rehabilitation of non-violent offenders (the only population where it works), and for long-term decades long "aging-out" of violent offenders (keep them in until they're 60 years old).

Well, I don't think that prisons serve a rehabilitation function, even when there are rehabilitation programs.

The failed experiments of the 1980s and 1990s proved that.

They provide no restitution to victims in any sense.

I think they should be redesigned for rehabilitation of non-violent offenders (the only population where it works), and for long-term decades long "aging-out" of violent offenders (keep them in until they're 60 years old).

What experiments, where were they held, what kind of offenders did they targer?

Furthermore, most inmates who kill or severely assault other inmates are lifers who have little to lose because they'll never see the outside anyway. With reforms lik ethose I'm suggesting, that would/could be less of a factor.

Screw that. If you take a life for any other reason than defending yourself from say, armed robbery, for example, your life is forfeit. At least, if my nation's pansies ever ask to drop the death penalty, that's what I'm gonna tell them.:upyours:<<<Not directed at you, but them. :D

Also, if there's so many prisons(as in the US), they should place gang members in separate prisons where possible, so that no more than say, 2 members of each gang are in each prison. Granted, if there are enough members(ie, more than the total number of prisons of the appropriate security level in the country), they might still be able to bully other inmates, but it prevents large scale rioting.

Hahahahahha...

RO, I can't believe you turned this into a Muslim topic.

I think the prison system as a whole sucks.

What we have is an entire institution of publicly funded waste.

I'd rather see the criminal justice system changed into a system where convicts can become productive. Using any skills or abilities they have to work off their debt to society rather than just sit in a cell consuming public resources.

For example, someone who steals a $35,000 car ought to be put to work until they've worked off their $35,000 debt. Additionally, they should have the choice of allocating some portion of the money they generate to sustain their families or pay off their own private debts. This enables them to continue to meet existing obligations and responsibilities while working off their debt to society.

Someone who murders or rapes would have their work produce finds that would go toward benefitting the victim or victim's family in some useful and tangible way, like providing for college for the victim's children or paying their rent/mortages, etc.

In such a system, only those who are truly unmanageable would sit and rot in prisons, and many of the issues raised by the OP's article would be minimized because the convicts wouldn't have nearly as much free time to cause trouble.

Furthermore, most inmates who kill or severely assault other inmates are lifers who have little to lose because they'll never see the outside anyway. With reforms lik ethose I'm suggesting, that would/could be less of a factor.

Have you read Thomas More's Utopia?

Hahahahahha...

RO, I can't believe you turned this into a Muslim topic.

Gotta credit the craft. *nods*

not profitable, dangerous and takes time away from rehabilitation courses (course it will get you off to know that small jobs can be taken)

Nonsense. Six hours of schooling, eight hours of labor (I know at least a dozen potholes that need filling on the local freeway), eight of sleep and two of meals/personal time. Full day, productive day.

Nonsense. Six hours of schooling, eight hours of labor (I know at least a dozen potholes that need filling on the local freeway), eight of sleep and two of meals/personal time. Full day, productive day.

I was under the impression that slavery was abolished in civilized countries...Though, I do think in some parts of the US they have chain gangs and death penalty..

For the record, that might work if they were paid for what they're doing and it would be voluntary.

We have this news story. It's from the UK. I don't know how the UK runs its prisons, but I imagine they have the same policies on "protection" of prisoners, and that the level of protection of prisoners is fairly applied, and cannot always be guaranteed if the prisoner is in the general population.

I am willing to bet that Muslim prisoners in the UK most certainly are, from a policy standpoint, afforded the same protection as other prisoners.


If criminals don't want to get hassle in prison then they shouldn't commit crimes. Screw these people.

UK prisons are a joke. No haircuts, no uniform, free internet access, cable and recreational facilities and you can make outgoing calls etc. pretty much whenever you feel like it. The wife of an Italian mobster described them as being like hotels: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/manchester/6634167.stm

As for Muslim prisoners, they practically run the places. When they're actually there that is--they get let out several times a day to go to the mosque.

If criminals(.....)mosque.


And bring back hanging!!!!!!!!!!!

And bring back hanging!!!!!!!!!!!

Har har. Bit of a jump from "bring back prison uniforms and haircuts", but if it has public support, actually, then why not? This is meant to be a democratic society, after all.

Personally I take the view that hanging is wasteful. The majority of child rapers and mass murderers are chock-full of valuable blood and organs that the NHS could make good use of. That's a surefire way of getting them to "repay their debt to society" and ensuring that they don't commit any more offences right there.

Hahahahahha...

RO, I can't believe you turned this into a Muslim topic.
I can. I can also easily believe he's getting himself off thinking about Muslims having the crap beaten out of them by all those good, honest, wonderful rapists, murderers and child molesters.
In RO's mind, Muslims are below guys who rape and kill.

Prison isn't meant to be a place of torture and degradation. It's meant to be a place where being removed from society is the punishment (and, as well, a place where they can get treatment/rehabilitation). If the powers-that-be (i.e. the prison system, the govt and society) can't guarantee the prisoner's safety, then the powers-that-be (i.e. the prison system, the govt and society) have failed.

It's nothing to be proud of, nor gloat over as RO is obviously doing.

I can. I can also easily believe he's getting himself off thinking about Muslims having the crap beaten out of them by all those good, honest, wonderful rapists, murderers and child molesters.
In RO's mind, Muslims are below guys who rape and kill.

You say that as though the Muslims themselves aren't in there for rape and murder. In fact, the usually are (in disproportionate numbers).

Prison isn't meant to be a place of torture and degradation. It's meant to be a place where being removed from society is the punishment (and, as well, a place where they can get treatment/rehabilitation).

British justice was originally about criminals receiving their "just desserts", whatever they might be, not simply letting them chill out in a big hotel they're allowed out of at weekends. The inscription at the Old Bailey reads "PROTECT THE CHILDREN OF THE POOR AND PUNISH THE WRONGDOER". This is no longer happening.

. The majority of child rapers and mass murderers are chock-full of valuable blood and organs that the NHS could make good use of.

While you, good Sir, seem to be 'chock-full' of naught but shite.

Why would muslims be allowed out 7 times a day btw?

I can. I can also easily believe he's getting himself off thinking about Muslims having the crap beaten out of them by all those good, honest, wonderful rapists, murderers and child molesters.
In RO's mind, Muslims are below guys who rape and kill.

Obviously not. I just don't want them to get any "special treatment" or "extra security" above and beyond what ordinary prisoners get.

Thank you for putting words in my mouth - you can have them back and wear them proudly.

It's called projection - putting words in my mouth that are actually your secret desires.

While you, good Sir, seem to be 'chock-full' of naught but shite.

What a detailed and rational critique of my post. For a witty, point by point rejoinder, please accept a "Go fuck yourself.", with my compliments.

Why would muslims be allowed out 7 times a day btw?

I wrote several, not seven.

What a detailed and rational critique of my post. For a witty, point by point rejoinder, please accept a "Go fuck yourself.", with my compliments.



I wrote several, not seven.

They're fond of distorting posts from any poster they dislike. Feel free to misquote them at random.

Ok this is my personal opinion but, in prisons, they're right. You dont get that much protection. On the news, of course they're going to say that this person is fully protected or this person if in perfect health when real its just a cover. And some people might not know it but Women's Prison isn't much better. The guards practically rape those poor women. I mean sure, yea they commited a crime, but what is a criminal really? Most people go to jail because they robbed someone or killed someone for what? MONEY. If the government keeps taking money,what do they expect? DUH,you got to do what you got to do. But in the same sense, stealing and killing is not the answer. And to that slavery thing. Yes it was stopped but you cant stop someone's free will. and in some prisons its just like being a slave. Compare it see. Dont follow the sterotypes that people give you about prison. It's the real deal and they dont play around. If you end up in prison, its a really good chance that you will either get killed or kill yourself.

What a detailed and rational critique of my post..

I think I cut to the nub of it. Your remark As for Muslim prisoners, they practically run the places. being indicative of the level of content as a whole...



I wrote several, not seven.

Then would you care to explain why they are allowed out "several times" a day?

They're fond of distorting posts from any poster they dislike. Feel free to misquote them at random.

I don't suppose you've examples to hand.....?

By the way.....

Well, I don't think that prisons serve a rehabilitation function, even when there are rehabilitation programs.

The failed experiments of the 1980s and 1990s proved that.

What were the experiments, where were they held, what group(ings) of prisoners were targeted and what were the results...?

I think the prison system as a whole sucks.

What we have is an entire institution of publicly funded waste.

I'd rather see the criminal justice system changed into a system where convicts can become productive. Using any skills or abilities they have to work off their debt to society rather than just sit in a cell consuming public resources.

For example, someone who steals a $35,000 car ought to be put to work until they've worked off their $35,000 debt. Additionally, they should have the choice of allocating some portion of the money they generate to sustain their families or pay off their own private debts. This enables them to continue to meet existing obligations and responsibilities while working off their debt to society.

Someone who murders or rapes would have their work produce finds that would go toward benefitting the victim or victim's family in some useful and tangible way, like providing for college for the victim's children or paying their rent/mortages, etc.

In such a system, only those who are truly unmanageable would sit and rot in prisons, and many of the issues raised by the OP's article would be minimized because the convicts wouldn't have nearly as much free time to cause trouble.

Furthermore, most inmates who kill or severely assault other inmates are lifers who have little to lose because they'll never see the outside anyway. With reforms lik ethose I'm suggesting, that would/could be less of a factor.

Screws the local economy up. Whatever job the prisoners take over is a job a local company hence can't do leading to unemployment and so on and so forth.





British justice was originally about criminals receiving their "just desserts", whatever they might be, not simply letting them chill out in a big hotel they're allowed out of at weekends. The inscription at the Old Bailey reads "PROTECT THE CHILDREN OF THE POOR AND PUNISH THE WRONGDOER". This is no longer happening.
Thankfully we are no longer the Victorians.

What British justice was never about was forcibly taking blood and organs from those sentenced to temporary confinement and nothing more.

I don't suppose you've examples to hand.....?

By the way.....

What were the experiments, where were they held, what group(ings) of prisoners were targeted and what were the results...?

See the work of Stanton Samenow, and his surveys of research from that time period.

It's why some states are thinking nowadays that aging out violent offenders is the only true way to lower recidivism in violent felons.

See the work of Stanton Samenow, and his surveys of research from that time period.

It's why some states are thinking nowadays that aging out violent offenders is the only true way to lower recidivism in violent felons.

A quick look brought this to my attention.

To embark on a truly corrective program, we must begin with the clear understanding that the criminal chooses crime; he chooses to reject society long before society rejects him. The criminal values people only to the extent that he can use them for his own self-serving ends; he does not justify his actions to himself. Only by "habilitating" the criminal, so that he sees himself realistically and develops responsible patterns of thought, can we change his behavior.
It is vital that we know who the criminal is and how and why he acts differently from responsible citizens. From that understanding can come reasonable, compassionate, and effective solutions

http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9781400046195 (my bold)

Thats admittedly a summary of a blurb from his book....but I don't get the "throw key away" vibe there......He's also not the only one with a 'proffessional' opinion out there....

A quick look brought this to my attention.


http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9781400046195 (my bold)

Thats admittedly a summary of a blurb from his book....but I don't get the "throw key away" vibe there......He's also not the only one with a 'proffessional' opinion out there....

He believes that his method is the only method of rehabilitation that works - he's written research surveys of other studies (and done some of his own) that show that no prior rehabilitation program works.

I think I cut to the nub of it. Your remark being indicative of the level of content as a whole...

Come on, Noddy. Even The Guardian has commented on the growing power of prison gangs like the Muslim Boys, with their forcible conversions. Hardly a pillar of conservatism.

Just look at Belmarsh: http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/003843.php

Who is master there?

He believes that his method is the only method of rehabilitation that works - he's written research surveys of other studies (and done some of his own) that show that no prior rehabilitation program works.

...which, taking it for the sake of argument that hes correct, is still not
a basis which backs

Well, I don't think that prisons serve a rehabilitation function, even when there are rehabilitation programs.

The failed experiments of the 1980s and 1990s proved that.

or " It's why some states are thinking nowadays that aging out violent offenders is the only true way to lower recidivism in violent felons".

Who is master there?

Allah!!!!!, Jihadwatch be praised!!!!!

...which, taking it for the sake of argument that hes correct, is still not
a basis which backs


or " It's why some states are thinking nowadays that aging out violent offenders is the only true way to lower recidivism in violent felons".

That last part has nothing to do with Samenow. It's the direction that states are taking, based on their own experience.

If you hold a violent felon (usually arrested in their 20s) and hold him until he's 60, he's really unlikely to be a violent felon again, because he's too old.

Allah!!!!!, Jihadwatch be praised!!!!!

I call "ad hominem". The content of the article is perfectly legitimate.

What British justice was never about was forcibly taking blood and organs from those sentenced to temporary confinement and nothing more.

They didn't take those things because they didn't have the means. They would take their material assets for the succour of their victims.

We're talking about taking them from child murderers, serial murderers and sexually-motivated murderers, not grafitti artists. The former should not only be temporarily confined in the first place--if we had direct democracy, they wouldn't be.

Hahahahahha...

RO, I can't believe you turned this into a Muslim topic.

You can't? Really?

I'm just not surprised myself. :)

That last part has nothing to do with Samenow. .

I noticed. Which makes me wonder why you mention him. Personally I suspect that you usually cherry pick his views ('Criminals choose to be the way they are') and dodge mentioning the rehabiltation he suggests.



It's the direction that states are taking, based on their own experience..
.
..based on a system where in many states there are elected DA.s, Sherrifs etc who find that a tough, harsh line on the old law and order does well for their continued career in office.....Hmmmmmm....


If you hold a violent felon (usually arrested in their 20s) and hold him until he's 60, he's really unlikely to be a violent felon again, because he's too old.

Why thats very true. Its also true that if you just shoot down dead most offenders when they are getting into crime, they'll be too dead to do any more serious deeds later on.

I call "ad hominem". The content of the article is perfectly legitimate.



November 8, 2004
UK: Three million dollar mosque to be built at Abu Hamza's prison

...followed by some classic tabloid outrage and remarks made by 'prison officers'......Its mickey, is what it is.

...followed by some classic tabloid outrage and remarks made by 'prison officers'......Its mickey, is what it is.

Mickey?

http://www.fastdecals.com/graphics/mickeyfinger_disney_tn.jpg?

There only 2 ways other than solitary confinment to protect yourself from other inmates; Kick the shit out of someone or be a bitch.

Well, I don't think that prisons serve a rehabilitation function, even when there are rehabilitation programs.

The failed experiments of the 1980s and 1990s proved that.

They provide no restitution to victims in any sense.

I think they should be redesigned for rehabilitation of non-violent offenders (the only population where it works), and for long-term decades long "aging-out" of violent offenders (keep them in until they're 60 years old).

Prison should simply be made horrific. Prison ought to a perjorative experiance that precludes reoffending by simply making the interred afraid of ever returning.

I was under the impression that slavery was abolished in civilized countries...Though, I do think in some parts of the US they have chain gangs and death penalty..

For the record, that might work if they were paid for what they're doing and it would be voluntary.

"Labor" did not imply "slave labor", but my bad for not specifying. The work would be paid. I'm thinking of New Deal-type CCC/WPA projects.

Ok this is my personal opinion but, in prisons, they're right. You dont get that much protection. On the news, of course they're going to say that this person is fully protected or this person if in perfect health when real its just a cover. And some people might not know it but Women's Prison isn't much better. The guards practically rape those poor women. I mean sure, yea they commited a crime, but what is a criminal really? Most people go to jail because they robbed someone or killed someone for what? MONEY. If the government keeps taking money,what do they expect? DUH,you got to do what you got to do. But in the same sense, stealing and killing is not the answer. And to that slavery thing. Yes it was stopped but you cant stop someone's free will. and in some prisons its just like being a slave. Compare it see. Dont follow the sterotypes that people give you about prison. It's the real deal and they dont play around. If you end up in prison, its a really good chance that you will either get killed or kill yourself.

Prison should simply be made horrific. Prison ought to a perjorative experiance that precludes reoffending by simply making the interred afraid of ever returning.

For violent offenders whose crimes involved intentional or threatened injury or murder (murder, attempted murder, manslaughter, armed robbery, armed assault/battery, assault/battery requiring procedures to repair), or whose property crimes are significantly egregious (more than petty larceny and including most breaking & entering, arson), or abusers who cannot be treated in any other way, I tend to agree. For those whose crimes are political -- simple possession of drugs, passive resistance/civil disobedience -- or otherwise nonviolent crime, not so much.

The guy in jail for possession of an ounce of weed does not deserve to be shanked or sodomized...or indeed to be in jail at all, but that's a whole 'nother thread: Learning nothing from prohibition, criminalizing marijuana -- which grows without cultivation (and no extra expense, hence "weed") has MADE it as expensive as it is, thus generating the organized crime around it. What's a kilo of weed go for now, being illegal, and what would it go for if you could grow your own legally? Sorry...pet peeve.

"My life is better for having given up drugs, but my life would be infintely worse had I been arrested for using them." -- Bill Hicks

"Labor" did not imply "slave labor", but my bad for not specifying. The work would be paid. I'm thinking of New Deal-type CCC/WPA projects.

Why? One of th emain incentives for having community service and such is that the government doesn't have to spend as much money paying for the much needed services.

Prison should simply be made horrific. Prison ought to a perjorative experiance that precludes reoffending by simply making the interred afraid of ever returning.


They tried that in the Victorian era. There was still crime.

Mickey?

http://www.fastdecals.com/graphics/mickeyfinger_disney_tn.jpg?


In this usage, ' a load of bollocks', as mickey generally means penis - For example a 'mickey dodger' would, in certain areas, refer to a Nun. Also, in the same vein 'acting the mickey', which is the equivalent of 'acting the prick'.

To say something is shoddily made or done, however, one would say of it that it was a 'mickey mouse effort. You could also use this in reference to a badly performing, unimpressive soccer squad - a 'mickey mouse' team- such as the current Irish squad, for example.

Why? One of th emain incentives for having community service and such is that the government doesn't have to spend as much money paying for the much needed services.

And take work andm oney away from companies who would otherwise employ people to do those jobs.

i have a friend doing life down in florida,well he is on death row now.
he got in a bar fight while drunk and drugged up.he ended up stabbing a latino to death during the brawl.(he is white..minority)
he was basically told he was a dead man by some inmates during processing(gang members)
so he went and slashed some inmate to death in fron t of the guards pretty much,so he got the d/p for that,but he is on death row now,has his own cell,and knows exactly when he will die,and not randomly stabbed in the shower.
he is an unbelievable artist,what a shame he got in that fight,i never knew him to be a violent person,cause he was not,he claimed self defence but lost.
what sucks is that the prison system is so bad someone would prefer death row?
and dont even get me started on non violent offenders thrown in general pop over drug or theft charges.
they learn fast to be violent or they are abused to all hell.
great system we have here.

Prisons are full of bad peoplez.

Another brilliant observation by RO.

Why? One of th emain incentives for having community service and such is that the government doesn't have to spend as much money paying for the much needed services.

You pay them just under whatever the illegals are getting. Win-win.

And take work andm oney away from companies who would otherwise employ people to do those jobs.

Riiiiiight. The queue for the type of jobs I'm talking about starts in Ciudad Juarez. Cry me a river.

Prison should simply be made horrific. Prison ought to a perjorative experiance that precludes reoffending by simply making the interred afraid of ever returning.

They tried that in the Victorian era. There was still crime.

There was less. Besides, the Victorian system belonged to the Victorian era, and was riddled with flaws. Try comparing like with like. For example, the British system and the Japanese system.

Oh look!

Serious Assault per 100,000:
England & Wales - 405.20
Japan - 15.40

How unusual! Two wealthy Western nations of the modern era, both densely crowded (one far more so than the other) island-based constitutional monarchies. One treats criminals like criminals, the other treats criminals likes naughty children who just need a bit of a helping hand, srsly folks.

In one, criminals take the piss. In the other, criminals are rare.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

-snip-

Draconian punishments don't make any difference to crime rates. Proportionate punishment, coupled with the far more important deterrent of effective policing, reduce crime.

You can be told that if you steal a loaf of bread you'll be forced to sit in a bath of cold tomato juice with Jade Goody, but unless you think there is actually a chance of being caught the threat is meaningless.

November 8, 2004
UK: Three million dollar mosque to be built at Abu Hamza's prison

...followed by some classic tabloid outrage and remarks made by 'prison officers'......Its mickey, is what it is.

Right, "mickey". You can be casually mocking of the "tabloid" tone all you like. The fact is that it is outrageous. Or wouldn't you agree?

There was less. Besides, the Victorian system belonged to the Victorian era, and was riddled with flaws. Try comparing like with like. For example, the British system and the Japanese system.

Oh look!

Serious Assault per 100,000:
England & Wales - 405.20
Japan - 15.40

How unusual! Two wealthy Western nations of the modern era, both densely crowded (one far more so than the other) island-based constitutional monarchies. One treats criminals like criminals, the other treats criminals likes naughty children who just need a bit of a helping hand, srsly folks.

In one, criminals take the piss. In the other, criminals are rare.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.Too bad that last i checked, crime was on the increase in japan - not to mention that Japan's lower unemployment and rather small number of second/ third generation immigrants lacking perspectives might've something to do with it.

Conversely, Japan does actually rule one - and only one - crime statistic, that being abductions for the purpose of sexually abusing children/ teenagers - cases akin to the Dutroux case in Belgium are actually a semiregular occurance in Japan (Once every six months or so, I seem to recall).

Lo and behold - this happens in the most sexually repressed (Socially, though, rather than by law) in the west.

Crime is, by and large, a function of the society it occurs in. The social structure determines which crimes happen, and how often they happen.

How 'Good' or 'Bad' the prisons are has rather little to do with it. If anything, you could boost police presence - which has a mild effect -, but the prisons themselves... Eh, not really.

I am willing to bet that Muslim prisoners in the UK most certainly are, from a policy standpoint, afforded the same protection as other prisoners.

If he wants to be safe, perhaps he should request permanent transfer to the UK equivalent of a Supermax isolation cell.
In the sections of society most likely to commit crimes, there is also a high rate of xenophobia.

You're better off in prison white than a Pakistani Muslim, so they probably need more security to even the odds up, although it might be completely counterproductive, and would lead to all kinds of new hate for them.

Bit hard to tell, really.

Draconian punishments don't make any difference to crime rates. Proportionate punishment, coupled with the far more important deterrent of effective policing, reduce crime.

It's all well and good saying that, but the statistics in Singapore, Japan etc. would seem to completely contradict you (and personally I think these "Draconian" measures are proportionate).

Obviously policing needs to be effective as well (I mean, come on), but without effective judicial punishment to back them it up it's a paper tiger. If the courts aren't really going to punish you, why give a damn about whether or not the police catch you?

It's all well and good saying that, but the statistics in Singapore, Japan etc. would seem to completely contradict you (and personally I think these "Draconian" measures are proportionate).

Obviously policing needs to be effective as well (I mean, come on), but without effective judicial punishment to back them it up it's a paper tiger. If the courts aren't really going to punish you, why give a damn about whether or not the police catch you?

Most people don't sit down and weigh up the advantages of committing the crime against the disadvantage of being punished. If they consider anything at all before hand (which, in a lot of cases, doesn't happen), then they will consider whether or not they can get away with what they are trying to do.

Yes, punishments that too soft are not going to deter crime, but you're very naive/cosseted and middle class if you think that even a week in prison isn't an experience that most people would do anything to avoid.

Too bad that last i checked, crime was on the increase in japan -

Crime is almost always slightly on the increase everwhere there is a growing population. The system is still several orders or magnitude better than elsewhere. Don't throw out a good system just because it isn't perfect--you can never totally eradicate crime, sadly.

Conversely, Japan does actually rule one - and only one - crime statistic, that being abductions for the purpose of sexually abusing children/ teenagers

This is not, in fact, true.

Lo and behold - this happens in the most sexually repressed (Socially, though, rather than by law) in the west.

You don't think paedophilia is/should be repressed elsewhere in the West? WTF?

Crime is, by and large, a function of the society it occurs in. The social structure determines which crimes happen, and how often they happen.

Duh. What you seem to forget is that justice and the rule of law are a massive factor in determining a society's social structure.

It's all well and good saying that, but the statistics in Singapore, Japan etc. would seem to completely contradict you (and personally I think these "Draconian" measures are proportionate).

Obviously policing needs to be effective as well (I mean, come on), but without effective judicial punishment to back them it up it's a paper tiger. If the courts aren't really going to punish you, why give a damn about whether or not the police catch you?And what do you if they are? You just try to run away faster.

Look at, oh, I don't know - the crime in the Soviet Union (Or a random third world country) - despite the Gulag and insanely liberal applications of the death sentence, they still got - and get - more and more and more crime.

Generally speaking, there's two kinds of criminals - the kind that enjoys it, and the kind that does it out of 'Necessity' (''Necessity' being not entirely appropriate, as it depends on the average wealth of the society. 'Necessity' in the Congo is different from 'Necessity' in England). There's some flux between the two (Mostly from the latter two the former), but by and large, this works.

You're not going to get rid of the former group. You can certainly apply 'Permanent' punishments (The only risk of which is sentencing innocent ones to death, as has happened a bit too often for my liking. my only objection to the death sentence, really, albeit the one that ends up making me oppose it). You can get rid of the latter one. But you're not going to get rid of the latter one through horrifying them, simply because the temptation will always prove to be too strong.

Now, this doesn't mean that crime shouldn't be punished properly - I've issues with the idea of, lets say, honour murderers being revered by their people in prison, to name but one example -, but I'm under no illusions that tougher punishments will actually reduce crime.

As such, I find the idea of intentionally turning prisons into horror houses (Mild exaggeration, probably) somewhat silly.

Just look at Belmarsh: http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/003843.php
That article and the rest of the site is complete shite and you should be ashamed to even know about it.

Got any other neutral sources such as, say, Stormfront?
Who is master there?
The prison guards who are still quite capable of beating the shit out of any prisoner they choose when they're restrained.

Crime is almost always slightly on the increase everwhere there is a growing population. The system is still several orders or magnitude better than elsewhere. Don't throw out a good system just because it isn't perfect--you can never totally eradicate crime, sadly.First of all, japan's population is shrinking...

Secondly, I mean per capita increase. Which is growing rapidly - 150% in the past decade.

You don't think paedophilia is/should be repressed elsewhere in the West? WTF?way to not read. I said sexually repressed, not repressed paedophilia, now did I? For that matter, the repression was referring to Japan's immense prudery, not to criminal investigation of rape/ paedophilia cases.

Although, of course, Japan does have a 'Tradition' of 'Take it and go on', resulting in distressingly low report rates.

Duh. What you seem to forget is that justice and the rule of law are a massive factor in determining a society's social structure.A minor factor when compared to its total wealth, and the distribution thereof. Lets not forget that the vast majority of crimes has an economic background, with 'Opportunity', 'Ethnicity' and other such details being just that - details, of comparatively minor importance.

Secondly, I mean per capita increase. Which is growing rapidly - 150% in the past decade.

Well that's just totally meaningless, isn't it? The reason Japan appears to have high rates of recidivism is because pretty much the only people committing crimes are hardcore career criminals.

way to not read. I said sexually repressed, not repressed paedophilia, now did I? For that matter, the repression was referring to Japan's immense prudery, not to criminal investigation of rape/ paedophilia cases.

Way to not capitalise the first letter of a sentence. You said that sexual repression--"prudery"--is the cause of instances of child and teenage abduction for sexual abuse. And I don't accept that "prudery" turns you into a child abuser.

Although, of course, Japan does have a 'Tradition' of 'Take it and go on', resulting in distressingly low report rates.

This is unfortunate (although not unique to Japan). Again, however, no system or society is perfect. That doesn't mean it isn't superior.

Besides, the Japanese police are trying to combat this sort of thing as best they are able. For example, guys who slyly grope women on packed trains can be caught out now by a new forensic method which can detect small fibred of clothing on your palms. That's a pretty clear message of zero tolerance.

A minor factor when compared to its total wealth, and the distribution thereof. Lets not forget that the vast majority of crimes has an economic background, with 'Opportunity', 'Ethnicity' and other such details being just that - details, of comparatively minor importance.

A minor factor with regard to the majority of crimes, probably. A major factor in the minority of very major crimes? No.

Right, "mickey". You can be casually mocking of the "tabloid" tone all you like. The fact is that it is outrageous. Or wouldn't you agree?


Building a mosque for Prisoners? Its about as outrageous as building them a church....or a buddhist Temple, or a Hindu shrine.

Do you have a point you're leaving a trail of slime up to, or is it just
"TEH MUSLIMISEZ R TEH 3BBIL!!!!!!!!!!". If so, could we cut to the chase?

Right, "mickey". You can be casually mocking of the "tabloid" tone all you like. The fact is that it is outrageous. Or wouldn't you agree?
We have chapels in churches, why not mosques?

Yes, punishments that too soft are not going to deter crime, but you're very naive/cosseted and middle class if you think that even a week in prison isn't an experience that most people would do anything to avoid.Huh? You do mean "is" rather than "isn't", right? You kinda have a double negative with "isn't" and "avoid". It confused me for a bit.

Huh? You do mean "is" rather than "isn't", right? You kinda have a double negative with "isn't" and "avoid". It confused me for a bit.

No, I mean isn't. :p