NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/000200707161701.htm

Most people in the free world won't have heard of this, but Australia has just decided it didn't want to be in the club anymore.

After the recent attempted terror attacks in Britain, a bunch of doctors were picked up in connection with them. One of them had a second cousin who lived in Australia and worked for the Gold Coast Hospital, not too far from me.

He was picked up on the suspicion of being involved. He was held for the days granted to the police. Once this time runs out and the police hasn't been able to charge him, they can ask the courts to grant an extension. This was done...twice (or was it three times, I can't recall). By the time he'd been held for ten days* the police realised how ridiculous this had gotten and declined to ask for another one, instead charging him with the high crime they had actually found evidence for:

Back when he left Britain a few years ago, Dr. Haneef gave his sim card to his second cousin who was now detained in the UK, apparently being involved in a terrorist plot.

That's it. "Support for terrorism", they call it.

But the real gem is still to come: Apparently the courts thought that Dr. "Hands out sim cards to terrorists" Haneef wasn't a major risk to society and granted him bail.

But before he could pay the $10,000 required, the immigration minister decided to revoke his visa on the grounds that he is "of bad character" - and has moved him to an immigration detention centre.

It makes me want to vomit, honestly.

So basically he has no rights there, he can be held indefinitely (in practice until his trial and the various appeals). Then if he is found innocent he will either get his visa back (which means the government admits it used the immigration detention system as a way to violate the jurisdiction of the courts) or he will be deported (for a bad character he was found to be innocent of).

So there we go. And I can't even say it's all Howard's fault (it is, but that's not the issue) because Labor couldn't stop itself from completely agreeing with the government's actions (no doubt because they don't want to be seen as weak on terrorism).

I want to punch someone really, really badly.

*I wrote this out of the top of my head, if any of the time frames or figures are wrong I appologise. It doesn't change the substance of the events.

I think you mean "Australian government disgraces itself AGAIN, John Howard, you're such a prick".

What's a sim card?

Feh.

Sorry, SIM card (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sim_card). The little chip that saves all your stuff on a mobile phone. The sort that is useless if you leave Britain for Australia and you might as well give to someone who can use it.

Aha. I think I get the idea, then. :)

What's a sim card?
They're the bit of your mobile (cellular) (tele)phone which gives you your number, it's what you put credit on, and is what discerns your network, unless it's 'unlocked'.

What's a sim card?
Sorry, SIM card (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sim_card). The little chip that saves all your stuff on a mobile phone. The sort that is useless if you leave Britain for Australia and you might as well give to someone who can use it.

Feh.
So assuming you think that Dr. Haneef is really guilty of something and should be punished...the complete disregard for the seperation of powers and the grotesque misuse of the immigration system doesn't bother you?

Elections couldn't come sooner as far as I am concerned, honestly I would feel better with Kim Beazley as PM than his conservative dimwit we have now. 'Support for terrorism' is same bogus trumped up charge hicks got pressed into confessing to. On this logic I could speak to a 'terrorist' and if he felt emboldened and had raised morale because of what I said afterwards, I have supported 'terrorism'. I mean seriously, I personally have said in my blogs stuff about violent revolution which could easily be construed this way, it's truly ridiculous and a mockery of our democracy.

I agree with the OP also, just as in the US and other countries, the Oppositions have blindly supported 'anti-terrorist' laws and the like in the post9/11 hysteria and continued to support these anti-democratic laws out of fear.

I swear, if we actually had a Opposition leader with a backbone like Keating I might actually give my preferences to Labor before the Greens.

Howard seems to keep finding new ways to throw the next election down the drain. I feel slightly sorry for Costello; If Labour win's he inherits a political party destroyed by bad policy decisions. If the Liberals win, Howard decides to stay on for another term and conduct more of his private political experiments on the country.

So Australia is a backwards country of dickweeds all clamoring to abuse the rights of anyone they can get their hands on. What else is new?

Honestly, he's not going to stupid enough to give his 2nd cousin a phone sim card so he can be framed for terrorism when they leave it lying around for police to find. I think he gave to his cousin to use the rest of the unused credits up. If all they can find is a single SIM card to prove he's a terrorist, it's pitiful but I guess they had to find someone to string up.

If giving your cousin a card for his poxy mobile is 'support for terrorism' its not a question of whose guilty, but trying to find out who isn't.

As for the immigration detention thing, it strikes me as somebody ticking the box marked "Darkie" and "Dangerous" getting filled in as a result.......

Apparently Australia has been visiting the Georgw W. Bush Library and checked out "Dealing with possible, might-be-but-not-sure, terrorist like suspects."

So Australia is a backwards country of dickweeds all clamoring to abuse the rights of anyone they can get their hands on. What else is new?

May I point out that the reason my country is spiralling down hill is because we can't seem to prise the lips of our Prime Minister from the ass of your idiotic republican President.

So Australia is a backwards country of dickweeds all clamoring to abuse the rights of anyone they can get their hands on. What else is new?

I reject that generalization.

:headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang:

Yeah, not much else to say.

So assuming you think that Dr. Haneef is really guilty of something and should be punished...the complete disregard for the seperation of powers and the grotesque misuse of the immigration system doesn't bother you?

Nope. I was born here.

Nope. I was born here.

You do realise the Australian government is capable of "accidently" classifying you as an illegal immigrant and throwing you in another country?

You do realise the Australian government is capable of "accidently" classifying you as an illegal immigrant and throwing you in another country?

I'm just glad that I'm Caucasian who already has citizenship and a passport.

You do realise the Australian government is capable of "accidently" classifying you as an illegal immigrant and throwing you in another country?

Why? I'm on their side.

Why? I'm on their side.

Dear me. Another one who thinks a fair go should only mean a fare to go when applied to immigrants?

Watch out also if you speak a foreign language or have a mental disability also.

Nods ... and being stuck in wheelchair does not help your cause either.

Dear me. Another one who thinks a fair go should only mean a fare to go when applied to immigrants?

... hey, I get it! :)

You do realise the Australian government is capable of "accidently" classifying you as an illegal immigrant and throwing you in another country?

Watch out also if you speak a foreign language or have a mental disability also.

because whatever limited rights the doctor enjoys in Australia are far superior than the rights he would enjoy in rest of the world.

In much of Africa, Asia, and most of Central and South America they would have just shot him.

May I point out that the reason my country is spiralling down hill is because we can't seem to prise the lips of our Prime Minister from the ass of your idiotic republican President.

Sorry, but I stopped associating myself with the United States about ten days ago. Even though it won't be for a few years yet I'm getting myself into the mindset of being a Canadian.

That said, you're probably right. :(
I reject that generalization.

Well, it's not exactly baseless, given the Australian record on aboriginals, immigration, its bloody founding as a prison colony, and all that jazz.

because whatever limited rights the doctor enjoys in Australia are far superior than the rights he would enjoy in rest of the world.

In much of Africa, Asia, and most of Central and South America they would have just shot him.

Umm, Australia is "supposed" democratic. Current government is abusing it's current executive powers without precident.

what they said last week about Oil and now this

what they said last week about Oil and now this

No no no, securing oil <> securing energy supply! :p

-snip-
Well, back home in Britian, the police now want powers for unlimited detention for anyone suspected of crimes involving terrorism. Considering the current governments record for supporting detention without trial on suspicion of terrorism, the recent (foiled) bombings, and the fact that the Great Leader is 'reviewing' terror legislation, they may well get it.

It seems dickery may well not be limited to the Australian government.

Nope. I was born here.
And that makes a difference because?

And that makes a difference because?

Where are they going to deport me to?

Where are they going to deport me to?

Germany?

Sorry, but I stopped associating myself with the United States about ten days ago. Even though it won't be for a few years yet I'm getting myself into the mindset of being a Canadian.

That said, you're probably right. :(


Well, it's not exactly baseless, given the Australian record on aboriginals, immigration, its bloody founding as a prison colony, and all that jazz.

Well since I can't bag out America, while it's true the first settlers were convicts, most were just petty offenses in Britain such as stealing food or the like, and most managed to become free settlers via work. Queensland is a good example. Much like America, the Australian colonies became a bit of a spot for people to make their fortunes on the gold fields or in cheap land, the multicultural/national myth of Australia was essential born in the events such as Eureka, Carpenteria and the like. You probably should read up on our history before making such generalizations.

Where are they going to deport me to?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru

Nauru is where illegal immigrants are dropped off.

I've just thought of something. Is Ferrous Oxide Potato Factory? :eek:

No no no, securing oil <> securing energy supply! :p

so we went to afghanistan to securing the Poppys to keep the Opium trade going i knew it :p

Well since I can't bag out America, while it's true the first settlers were convicts, most were just petty offenses in Britain such as stealing food or the like, and most managed to become free settlers via work. Queensland is a good example. Much like America, the Australian colonies became a bit of a spot for people to make their fortunes on the gold fields or in cheap land, the multicultural/national myth of Australia was essential born in the events such as Eureka, Carpenteria and the like. You probably should read up on our history before making such generalizations.

Aye, I probably should do some research. I just don't feel like it.

Where are they going to deport me to?
And rights only apply when the government does have somewhere to deport you to? Is there a clause in the Australian Constitution which allows the federal government to flagrantly misuse its executive power which only applies to immigrants? This example of misuse of power may well not be restricted to immigrants - considering the nature of the Australian sedition law, one has to wonder whether flagrant misuse of power may be just restricted to the 'darkies' and the 'evil muslims'.

Well, back home in Britian, the police now want powers for unlimited detention for anyone suspected of crimes involving terrorism. Considering the current governments record for supporting detention without trial on suspicion of terrorism, the recent (foiled) bombings, and the fact that the Great Leader is 'reviewing' terror legislation, they may well get it.

It seems dickery may well not be limited to the Australian government.

Unlimited? I thought they were trying to get it up to 90 something days

Where are they going to deport me to?

Canada! :D

I've just thought of something. Is Ferrous Oxide Potato Factory? :eek:

No, TPF was "German", though he had never been there, nor did he speak the language.

Also, Australia is evidently trying to be a worse America.

I've just thought of something. Is Ferrous Oxide Potato Factory? :eek:

Highly likely.

Highly likely.

That was my thought as well.

Unlimited? I thought they were trying to get it up to 90 something days
The police want unlimited now. I'll try and find a link.

EDIT: Here we go. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-6780173,00.html)

Canada! :D

We can be deported to Canada?

... anyone want a free SIM card?

The police want unlimited now. I'll try and find a link.

EDIT: Here we go. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-6780173,00.html)

Hmmmm and ideas like that worked so well in the past

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concentration_and_internment_camps#Northern_Ireland

(also how does one replace the big link with a teeny one)

Hmmmm and ideas like that worked so well in the past

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concentration_and_internment_camps#Northern_Ireland

(also how does one replace the big link with a teeny one)
Write the text you want as a link, highlight it, and then press the link button.

Hmmmm and ideas like that worked so well in the past

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concentration_and_internment_camps#Northern_Ireland

(also how does one replace the big link with a teeny one)

Like this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=12879355).

Basically, it's [.URL="http://etc".]{insert whatever words you want to turn into link}[./URL.] Minus the "." next to the []

Hmmmm and ideas like that worked so well in the past

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concentration_and_internment_camps#Northern_Ireland

(also how does one replace the big link with a teeny one)

ur wordz go here (www.linkage.com/urlinkgoeshere)

We can be deported to Canada?

... anyone want a free SIM card?

I'll need learn French first! :D

Where are they going to deport me to?

well not to Woop Woop

Where are they going to deport me to?

To Afghanistan, to a warlords camp. They'll sell you to the CIA, and split the money 50/50.

So Australia is a backwards country of dickweeds all clamoring to abuse the rights of anyone they can get their hands on. What else is new?


And still a long way to go before they catch up to most islamic countries in this field!

Yet you will bitch.

Then again your statement seems to describe most islamic countries...

I've just thought of something. Is Ferrous Oxide Potato Factory? :eek:

No shit Sherlock.

He's exactly like every other hard-drinking mustache-wearing guy named Rusty that I've ever met.

I bet he cuts down trees for a living and regularly wins the pool contest at his local pub, too.

No shit Sherlock.

He's exactly like every other hard-drinking mustache-wearing guy named Rusty that I've ever met.

I bet he cuts down trees for a living and regularly wins the pool contest at his local pub, too.


..using naught but his manly shaft for both, no doubt....

*snip*

So, since Blair is no longer up Bush's ass, Howard decided to move in?:headbang:

So, since Blair is no longer up Bush's ass, Howard decided to move in?:headbang:
He's been there awhile, methinks.

And still a long way to go before they catch up to most islamic countries in this field!

Yet you will bitch.

Then again your statement seems to describe most islamic countries...

If Islamic countries drowned themselves in isopropyl alcohol and set themselves on fire, would you do it to?

I've just thought of something. Is Ferrous Oxide Potato Factory? :eek:
The signature kinda gives it away. There's not another human being on the planet who supports the Melbourne Victory. :D

Still, the point is not that Dr. Haneef is an immigrant, the point is that the government abused the immigration system to overrule the courts, which is a gross violation of the seperation of powers. And worse, Labor supports it.

Well, it's not exactly baseless, given the Australian record on aboriginals, immigration, its bloody founding as a prison colony, and all that jazz.

I think you'll find that the states in the sub-continent Haneef hailed from have far worse recrods where bloody foundings and ethnic wars are concerned.

What you are neglecting to mention is that Haneef also kept up pretty intimitate contact with the terrorists after his emigration and was caught trying to flee to India without having given his superiors any notice.

Not in the least bit suspicious?

I think you'll find that the states in the sub-continent Haneef hailed from have far worse recrods where bloody foundings and ethnic wars are concerned.

What you are neglecting to mention is that Haneef also kept up pretty intimitate contact with the terrorists after his emigration and was caught trying to flee to India without having given his superiors any notice.

Not in the least bit suspicious?

You're innocent, scared shitless you're going to be caught and jailed on a trumped up charge and detained indefinitely before being thrown out of the country.

I take it you'd just sit there?

Edit: Also, I think you'll find, barring subjugation by British Imperialists, India doesn't have a "recrod," whatever that is, of "bloody foundings and ethnic wars."
Look a little to the left on the map there, Bubba.

You're innocent, scared shitless you're going to be caught and jailed on a trumped up charge and detained indefinitely before being thrown out of the country.

I take it you'd just sit there?

Edit: Also, I think you'll find, barring subjugation by British Imperialists, India doesn't have a "recrod," whatever that is, of "bloody foundings and ethnic wars."
Look a little to the left on the map there, Bubba.

The Atlantic is to the left of my locale, Jerseyite. I'm closer to Russia than the Raj.

Subjugation of peoples and nations was nothing new on the sub-continent--it had been going on since Vedic times. Try expanding your chronology beyond the 19th century.

As far as I'm aware the man was not aware of anyone "trumping up charges" in a conspiracy against him. Other friends and relatives of the terrorists have gone unmolested. Why was he trying to flee his host nation after his buddies' sad and laughable efforts in London and Paisely came to naught?

What you are neglecting to mention is that Haneef also kept up pretty intimitate contact with the terrorists after his emigration and was caught trying to flee to India without having given his superiors any notice.

Not in the least bit suspicious?


Not according to the judge:

Ms Payne said she had to consider the concept of "acceptable risk" that was part of every bail decision and the stipulation in the criminal code that a person charged under the terrorism laws should be granted bail only in "exceptional circumstances".

She drew on several High Court cases to find that the "cumulative effect" of a number of factors meant Haneef's circumstances were exceptional enough to release him into the community.

These included that he was not alleged to have been directly involved with a group behind the abortive attacks in London and Glasgow; that the SIM card he gave to his second cousin was not alleged to have been used in an attack; that he had no criminal history and a good employment record; that his passport had been taken; and that he was likely to be placed under surveillance.

SMH "Bailed then Jailed" (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/07/16/1184559705304.html?page=2)

Why was he trying to flee his host nation after his buddies' sad and laughable efforts in London and Paisely came to naught?
He wasn't fleeing, he was going to visit his wife because she was pregnant. That's why he didn't have a return ticket: he didn't know how long he would stay.

The hospital he worked for confirmed the story, and they're the ones who should know.

He wasn't fleeing, he was going to visit his wife because she was pregnant. That's why he didn't have a return ticket: he didn't know how long he would stay.

The hospital he worked for confirmed the story, and they're the ones who should know.

They questioned him a for a long period - he cooperated and all they have a SIM card to call him a terrorist. They even trashed his flat and found, well zip.

I think you'll find that the states in the sub-continent Haneef hailed from have far worse recrods where bloody foundings and ethnic wars are concerned.

He's from Bangalore. The same place all the hi-tech companies are flocking to, presumably to deal with "bloody foundings and ethnic wars".

He wasn't fleeing, he was going to visit his wife because she was pregnant. That's why he didn't have a return ticket: he didn't know how long he would stay.

The hospital he worked for confirmed the story, and they're the ones who should know.

Can't comment on his innocence or not, but I can confirm that he did have a kid that week.

His wife is appealing to the Indian PM to intervene.

I think it's important to realize that both the PM and the Opposition Leader would have access to briefings about the investigation, which may contain information not disclosed in court, or of course publicly.

On the face of it this is, as Neu L said, a terrible breach of the seperation of powers (predicating an emigration decision on the outcome of a legal case.) And as several posters said, it couldn't be done to a citizen since they have no visa to revoke on undisclosed "character test" grounds.
It is remarkably similar to the intervention in the NT aboriginal communities, a rather special case which provides no useful effect other than to show the Feds doing something because they can. It is pure message, and bad message at that. "We tried, but we don't have enough power to succeed. *cough* darkies *cough*"

The Labor party lost any chance of my first preference vote back in '05 when Beazley specifically chose to concentrate on workchoices and not resist the "anti-terrorist" abrogation of our civil rights.

Depending how this turns out, the Labor party could lose any of my preferences at all. If further charges are laid and proved against Haneef (and I mean proved, in an open court not just to the satisfaction of a judge in closed court) and Labor leadership knew of reasonable grounds to hold him while other leads were followed, then backing this Fed move could be justified.

If it's just Labor concentrating on their election-winning issues and me-tooing all the others, then fuck no. If they can't fulfill the obligations of an Opposition, for having their eyes on the prize, screw them. I'll vote Greens below the line, Democrats, then all the small parties.

The Greens have a whopper coming. Even the Democrats will gain seats.

Where are they going to deport me to?

Well considering you are by your own admission caucasian your ancestors must have arrived in Australia from some other country or countries - probably in Europe.

From my personal experience it's not just being suspected of terrorism you need to worry about. The general police powers have been extended in the UK to such an extent that I was arrested last year. I've still not been told what exactly for but as far as I can gather because someone said I'd sent an e-mail.

To anyone in the UK - did you know you can now be arrested for ANYTHING - the police just have to JUSTIFY their reason afterwards.

I think it's important to realize that both the PM and the Opposition Leader would have access to briefings about the investigation, which may contain information not disclosed in court, or of course publicly.

On the face of it this is, as Neu L said, a terrible breach of the seperation of powers (predicating an emigration decision on the outcome of a legal case.) And as several posters said, it couldn't be done to a citizen since they have no visa to revoke on undisclosed "character test" grounds.
It is remarkably similar to the intervention in the NT aboriginal communities, a rather special case which provides no useful effect other than to show the Feds doing something because they can. It is pure message, and bad message at that. "We tried, but we don't have enough power to succeed. *cough* darkies *cough*"

The Labor party lost any chance of my first preference vote back in '05 when Beazley specifically chose to concentrate on workchoices and not resist the "anti-terrorist" abrogation of our civil rights.

Depending how this turns out, the Labor party could lose any of my preferences at all. If further charges are laid and proved against Haneef (and I mean proved, in an open court not just to the satisfaction of a judge in closed court) and Labor leadership knew of reasonable grounds to hold him while other leads were followed, then backing this Fed move could be justified.

If it's just Labor concentrating on their election-winning issues and me-tooing all the others, then fuck no. If they can't fulfill the obligations of an Opposition, for having their eyes on the prize, screw them. I'll vote Greens below the line, Democrats, then all the small parties.

The Greens have a whopper coming. Even the Democrats will gain seats.

Well in Ozpolitics, the Australian political blogs who analyze polls etc, their is a lot of talk about both the major parties loosing ground this year because of voter disillusionment with the mainstream parties, mostly that Labor doesnt really differ from Liberal anymore. But I doubt the Democrats will get out of their endless slump, I do however like their ideology of direct democracy etc. Most likely the Greens will benefit most.

To anyone in the UK - did you know you can now be arrested for ANYTHING - the police just have to JUSTIFY their reason afterwards.
What do you mean - do you have a link?

Well in Ozpolitics, the Australian political blogs who analyze polls etc, their is a lot of talk about both the major parties loosing ground this year because of voter disillusionment with the mainstream parties, mostly that Labor doesnt really differ from Liberal anymore. But I doubt the Democrats will get out of their endless slump, I do however like their ideology of direct democracy etc. Most likely the Greens will benefit most.
What a familiar story. One only has to replace 'Liberal' with 'Conservative'.:rolleyes:

He's from Bangalore. The same place all the hi-tech companies are flocking to, presumably to deal with "bloody foundings and ethnic wars".

No, to exploit the still surprisingly pliable victims of a brutal caste system, I think. The Germans were pretty big on technological innovation and industry in the thirties and forties, that doesn't mean their history isn't bloody.

People and businesses are just as eager to "flock" to Australia, but you don't mind when their society is criticicized as the product of a violent founding etc. etc.?

What a familiar story. One only has to replace 'Liberal' with 'Conservative'.:rolleyes:

Liberal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_conservatism
Labor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

Liberal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_conservatism
Labor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy
I know, I was making more a point about the British Labour Party.

*seeths*

No, to exploit the still surprisingly pliable victims of a brutal caste system, I think. The Germans were pretty big on technological innovation and industry in the thirties and forties, that doesn't mean their history isn't bloody.

Big words don't make facts.

WTF is a "brutal caste system" anyways? brutal than the situation of aborigines in Aus? natives in Americas? blacks in US? non-muslim minorities in muslim countries? whites in African countries? Ainus in Japan? Basques in Spain? Palestinians in Israel occupied lands? I can go on and on.

WTF has caste got anything to do with the topic anyways?


People and businesses are just as eager to "flock" to Australia, but you don't mind when their society is criticicized as the product of a violent founding etc. etc.?

I am sorry, but I don't have time to go over each and every post of every other idiot in the internet when they say something stupid.

I only pick a few and yours is one of them.

An update:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22093642-601,00.html

Dr. Haneef declined to pay $10,000 in bail so he gets to sit in a detention centre and instead chose to go to jail.

There has also been a 142 page leak of his interviews with the police, which I'm dying to get my hands on but so far haven't. The leak came from his lawyer, who felt that the information released by politicians and the police was selective and one-sided and instead wanted people to see the whole picture. Correct in my view.

And to do a bit of selective quoting myself, these are from the transcript:
"Every drop of blood is human. And I feel for every human being," he said.
He denied he had undertaken "any religious training'', adding:"When you are growing up you get up with the, ah, things - how to read a Koran, how to perform a salaam. I haven't had any formal teaching of that.

"Jihad, to my understanding, it's a struggle. Just life itself is a struggle. The proper meaning of jihad is just struggle. I would say that's a basic sort of understanding I have. Yes it is often misquoted and misinterpreted in different context.''

Big words don't make facts.

...If you think "pliable" and "innovation" are BIG WORDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111one then you are a simpleton.

WTF is a "brutal caste system" anyways?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_caste_system

There's an "Idiot's Guide" sort've introduction. I would strongly recommend hitting Amazon afterwards, or checking Google Video for some old documentaries.

brutal than the situation of aborigines in Aus? natives in Americas? blacks in US? non-muslim minorities in muslim countries? whites in African countries? Ainus in Japan? Basques in Spain? Palestinians in Israel occupied lands? I can go on and on.

You are going on and on. Like a broken record. And none of those are caste systems.

WTF has caste got anything to do with the topic anyways?

Directly? Nothing. I was responding to a chain of posts which resulted from someone else going off on a bit of a tangent. The point was worth making.

I am sorry, but I don't have time to go over each and every post of every other idiot in the internet when they say something stupid.

"I R BISY MAN! I HAV BISY LYF! ALSO GRLFRIEND! SRSLY!"

Don't try to make out like the fact that you couldn't be bothered reading through the thread before sticking your oar in was a good thing, please.

If you had been paying attention you would know that I only brought up India's history and domestic situation in response to someone else's criticism of Australian and British history.

We all know those people will just pollute our wonderful country. The worst are those 'refugees'. They just chuck their children into the ocean.

Don't forget, the Aboriginal peoples are dying out, we won't have to be worried about them in a few decades.

:rolleyes:

so we went to afghanistan to securing the Poppys to keep the Opium trade going i knew it :p

Well we are becoming more involved with China...

Tasmania can't produce enough?

He's been there awhile, methinks.

Its lonely in the Hole...

They can revoke your visa because you are 'of bad character'?
*clap*

*clap*
...

*clap*

Bureaucratic creativity at it's best. "How can we slam this guy in Guantanamo all the way here in Australia? How can we strip a man of his rights? What can be done to make it ok for the government to strip someone of their rights and imprison them indefinitely? What group doesn't have access to these fundamentals?"...."ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS! If we can find some way of stripping him of his legitimate visa... wait for it... HE HAS NO RIGHTS!"


Tune in for the next episode where we explore how to strip someone of their citizenship, and declare them and illegal immi.

The signature kinda gives it away. There's not another human being on the planet who supports the Melbourne Victory. :D

o_O

They won the previous bout against Adelaide United...

I just thought I'd update and end this whole saga. It was predictable, really.

http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/28/1990843.htm
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/FullcoverageStoryPage.aspx?id=a01c008f-4d09-4a68-821c-eb9853cda238indiandocsinukterrorplot_Special&MatchID1=4501&TeamID1=2&TeamID2=6&MatchType1=1&SeriesID1=1122&PrimaryID=4501&Headline=Haneef+wants+to+be+home+at+the+earliest
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/haneef-to-leave-tonight/2007/07/28/1185339299138.html

After several days of revelations that the charges were weaker than had been portrayed initially, as well as reports of police work that was both sloppy and potentially criminal (like writing things into Haneef's address book) the courts ordered the prosecution's case to be re-examined before the court proceedings started in earnest.

The case has been dropped, the charges were bogus. Dr. Haneef is tonight on the way home to India, though miraculously he wants to get back his Australian work visa. I suppose he enjoyed his job at the Gold Coast Hospital.

The real question is however: will anyone get charged with kidnapping?

The real question is however: will anyone get charged with kidnapping?Heh, I was gonna ask that.

Sadly I think it's more likely I'll win the national lottery today.

Yes well the case panned out as usual, the DPP admitted that serious mistakes were made and that the Federal police evidence was so poor they dropped the charges, too bad the poor guy has already been tried and convicted for 'terrorism' by the sensationalist media over here, no wonder he wants to go back to India. The blatant political interference from the immigration department etc in this case makes me sick and all the more determined to give the libs my preferences last in the elections.

I think Haneef appreciated the support from the Australian people who did, but I think it's the government he can't trust at all now. Well, I don't trust the current federal government with anything really, they'll just make a right royal mess it of it.

Dr. Haneef is tonight on the way home to India, though miraculously he wants to get back his Australian work visa. I suppose he enjoyed his job at the Gold Coast Hospital.

Lawsuit for damages?

He's been given a temporary visa and he should be there soon.

http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,5586472,00.jpg

The real question is however: will anyone get charged with kidnapping?

This guy should be

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22146758-661,00.html
A defiant Mr Keelty declared the investigation "thorough" and praising a "job well done".:rolleyes:

He said there was no reason why the AFP should apologise.

Prominent lawyer Lex Lasry described the case as a legal injustice triggered by pressure on investigators from some very senior MPs.

Good read on the lawyer who worked on the case

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22147285-601,00.html

Lawyer's own legal ordeal

Hedley Thomas | July 28, 2007

A LITTLE after 10am, while walking from a gleaming Brisbane Magistrates Court building to his favourite coffee shop yesterday, Peter Russo, criminal defence lawyer and new best friend of Mohamed Haneef, smiled at well-wishers. One sought an autograph. Others approached to say, "Good on you, mate".

On his best days, according to one of the legal eagles at the cheeky Justinian website for judges and lawyers, Russo "looks like an unmade bed, and on his worst days he appears bewildered".

But yesterday, Russo looked worried. Harassed.

He had just stepped out of Court 40 on the eighth floor of the George Street edifice, where his friend Stephen Keim SC had agreed with a request from Alan MacSporran SC, acting on behalf of the Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions, to return at 3pm for a directions hearing.

The media was suggesting the case against Haneef had all but collapsed. Speculation was rampant that Australian Federal Police Commissioner Mick Keelty and the Commonwealth DPP Damian Bugg QC would be wheeled out to take responsibility for a debacle in the fight against terrorism.

But would the police and the DPP really fold their hand and just walk away? Keim hoped with every fibre that they would, finally, do the right thing, and pave the way for a respected Indian-trained medical practitioner to be freed after four weeks of custody. Everything pointed to it. But Keim dared not say so.

As journalists suggested that the case against the Gold Coast Hospital registrar was wobbling, he vented his pessimism. Nope, he revealed, he did not believe there would be a breakthrough. There wouldn't, he was sure, be a happy ending.

"I just have a view that the Crown will amend the charge and we will be back to where we started," he said.

Asked about his most recent contact with the AFP, he said: "They have not softened their resolve to me on anything. (Haneef's) a bit anxious because, as you can imagine, there are more twists and turns in this than the Brisbane River."

The previous night, Thursday, Russo realised he needed to calm down. On the other end of a telephone line from India, a TV interviewer had wanted to know about the Howard Government's handling of the doctor from Bangalore.

"They kept asking me, 'Why has the Immigration Minister (Kevin Andrews) done this?' And I just got a bit angry and I said: 'Don't ask me. Ask the bloody minister who caused all this. I was yelling down the phone.

"My wife (barrister Kerry Mellifont) heard me. She told me it wasn't good form. Last night I said to her, 'I really need this to end so I can get back on with my life'. She is very supportive. She told me it will be over soon."

But you get the impression that Russo, a Catholic, has experienced a powerful and personal journey since he first met Haneef in the days after he was arrested by AFP agents while trying to board a July 2 one-way flight to India.

At that stage the circumstances looked extremely suspicious. The media, public opinion, the police and politicians were going one way. They were against Haneef.

There had been leaks, and grandstanding statements, about a Muslim caught with a one-way ticket. It was just a couple of days after his second cousins allegedly tried to cause destruction in London and Glasgow.

There was damning evidence, we were told: a mobile phone SIM card, the so-called smoking gun. It had been Haneef's before he gave it to one of his allegedly murderous relatives a year ago. There were stories about it being a potential trigger for an explosion, and tales of the internet conversations Haneef had with his relatives before they were arrested in Britain.

It all made fascinating copy, and the footage of the raids by AFP agents added to the sense of drama, the "terror in our midst". It seemed the police really wanted Haneef to be a terrorist. So much money had been spent on the fight. And the rest of us should have felt safer knowing they were on the case.

But by July 13 the cracks started to appear. And Keim worked hard to widen them. As Haneef was held behind bars and treated like a dangerous terrorist instead of a humanitarian with a perfectly good reason to return to India -- his wife, Firdous, had just given birth to their first child -- the prosecution's case started to come under real scrutiny.

After becoming aware of documentation that set out the threadbare case against Haneef, The Australian published it on July13 across the front page. Keelty was deeply annoyed, and Attorney-General Philip Ruddock grumbled that it was more information that he himself had at the time. But nobody challenged its authenticity. The mood against Haneef began to lighten. Just a little.

The next day, Russo sat through a 12-hour questioning session of Haneef. The Queensland Police Service's Adam Simms, on secondment to the AFP's counter-terrorism force, was firm but fair. There were times when Russo was concerned with the line of questioning, but he remained supremely confident his client was innocent.

As Haneef had told police in his first interview, he tried to telephone a British counter-terrorism officer four times on July2 when he realised they might want to talk to him about the SIM card he had given to his second cousin, Sabeel Ahmed.

"The reason I went with the flow with Mohamed during that questioning was because I really believed that at the end, they would let him go," Russo said yesterday. "In one of the breaks I'd even drafted a statement for Mohamed because I was so convinced. He was to have read it out to the press outside."

But in the early morning, Simms broke the news: "We're going to charge him."

"I was upset when they came and told me, and I said, 'You won't mind if I go and tell Mohamed'?" Russo recalled at the coffee shop yesterday.

"I think we do have a close connection. I've been asking him a lot of questions about the Koran, and what his faith means to him. I've learned a lot from him. There are similarities between Christianity and his beliefs. Do you want me to give you a couple of examples? They made a big issue in the police interview about jihad. But his understanding of jihad is that it is just a struggle. It's a life struggle.

"He's right. Life isn't a bed of bloody roses. He says that all blood is human blood, and what he means is that all human life is precious. So what if he hates the war in Iraq? More than half the population agrees.

"He talked to me about revenge in the Koran. He said his belief is something along the lines of: you're offered a higher place in paradise if you forgive than if you take revenge on your enemy. He says forgiveness is paramount. You're a better Muslim if you forgive."

While Haneef has explained his concept of forgiveness to Russo, a craggy-faced battler who admits he prefers "a fight to a feed", Russo has taught Haneef a uniquely Australian word. Bullshit. It is the word Russo uses to describe the evidence, the charge, the police leaks, and the orchestrated build-up of prejudice against the doctor.

"But he doesn't get angry," says Russo. "He is one of those personalities that could drive some people to distraction. I'm really emotive, but with him the whole world is falling down around him and he's not upset.

"He is moved by the fact that people believe in him, and that hiscolleagues at the hospital stood by him."

Russo wandered away from his favourite coffee shop at 11am, stilllooking more worried than bewildered.

As Keim sweated and paced the carpet in Brisbane, Bugg and Keelty put the finishing touches in Canberra to one of the most extraordinary backdowns in the history of the Australian criminal justice system.

The blame game started after 3pm. Yes, announced Bugg, the charge would be dropped. Yes, there had been dreadful mistakes. No, said Keelty, there would be no apology to Haneef.

Their press conference, beamed live into the lawyers' offices in Brisbane, was an unedifying spectacle. A man's reputation trashed, his freedom stripped, his family honour ruined, because he was deemed guilty by association. It had been a disaster from start to finish.

And at the end, in another place yesterday, Ruddock made the most absurd statement in this black comedy of errors.

"I think that what we have seen is that the system worked as was intended," he said. :rolleyes:

Does the federal government not want to be re-elected?

Does the federal government not want to be re-elected?

I think they are trying look "tough on terror" and looking like idiots when the house of card collapses.

I think they are trying look "tough on terror" and looking like idiots when the house of card collapses.

Well they did the same thing around this time last election, they had the Tampa incident and Howard went all like 'tough on immigration'.

Tasmania can't produce enough?


Be nice.

If stuff like this happens around election a lot, Johnny Howard could be staging it. :p

I want to punch someone really, really badly.
I'm sure we can work something out with taking turns and such...

This is just bad. Really bad.

Reminds me of what pastor Martin Niemöller said...

Be nice.

Err.... Tasmania produces the world's largest amount of opium derivatives. EDIT: Wait, it produces the largest opium straw. Australia (via Tasmania) do produce the largest amount of opiates in the 'west'.

The police want unlimited now. I'll try and find a link.

EDIT: Here we go. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-6780173,00.html)

A few select police chiefs want it.. the government doesn't.

If they can't get 90 days detention without charge through parliament then they certainly won't get unlimited.

Its ridiculous. This government has proven that it can (and will) do whatever it wants to people residing within its borders, with only a small minority actually bothering to register a complaint in the first place. Sad, but I suppose at least that minority is there...for the moment...

In much of Africa, Asia, and most of Central and South America they would have just shot him.

No, they wouldn't. The US-backed, US-provoked and US-caused dictatorships you refer to were overthrown ages ago.

I agree with the OP also, just as in the US and other countries, the Oppositions have blindly supported 'anti-terrorist' laws and the like in the post9/11 hysteria and continued to support these anti-democratic laws out of fear.

I swear, if we actually had a Opposition leader with a backbone like Keating I might actually give my preferences to Labor before the Greens.

Meh, I think it was a sensible position for federal Labor to take so close to an election. Look at it this way:

There was no way the Opposition's POV on the issue would have had any influence on the actual events, and if it had turned out that Haneef was guilty while Labor was trying to "free" him, the boost it would have given the Coalition just weeks/months from an election is too high to risk. As abhorrent as it is, I'd rather risk Haneef being in detention for a few weeks rather than losing the election. My rationale? That another term in power for Howard and the Coalition would bring worse violations than those suffered by Haneef. So, from a PR perspective, it was a completely logical decision.

And way to go to my Premier Beattie for actually having the guts to criticise the FP and Andrews.

I bet he cuts down trees for a living and regularly wins the pool contest at his local pub, too.

I refute your connection between pool-playing ability and boganess.

The signature kinda gives it away. There's not another human being on the planet who supports the Melbourne Victory. :D

Still, the point is not that Dr. Haneef is an immigrant, the point is that the government abused the immigration system to overrule the courts, which is a gross violation of the seperation of powers. And worse, Labor supports it.

lol, the Howard government doesn't know the meaning of 'separation of powers'. This is just one in a long line of power-grabs from both states and other law and policy institutions. It isn't even funny any more.

I think it's important to realize that both the PM and the Opposition Leader would have access to briefings about the investigation, which may contain information not disclosed in court, or of course publicly.

That is an important note. Apparently Andrews is trying to find out if he can release the extra information he had when he revoked Haneef's visa. If he does get clearance from the FP it will be interesting to see just how incriminating this evidence is.

I think Haneef appreciated the support from the Australian people who did, but I think it's the government he can't trust at all now. Well, I don't trust the current federal government with anything really, they'll just make a right royal mess it of it.

November will be so sweet.

Good read on the lawyer who worked on the case

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22147285-601,00.html

lol, interesting article. I'm sure he is probably a good bloke, but jeeze, he could do with a few lessons by a PR person about dealing with the media; does not give good interview lol.

Does the federal government not want to be re-elected?
If stuff like this happens around election a lot, Johnny Howard could be staging it. :p

:p

I agree with the OP also, just as in the US and other countries, the Oppositions have blindly supported 'anti-terrorist' laws and the like in the post9/11 hysteria and continued to support these anti-democratic laws out of fear.

I swear, if we actually had a Opposition leader with a backbone like Keating I might actually give my preferences to Labor before the Greens.

Meh, I think it was a sensible position for federal Labor to take so close to an election. Look at it this way:

There was no way the Opposition's POV on the issue would have had any influence on the actual events, and if it had turned out that Haneef was guilty while Labor was trying to "free" him, the boost it would have given the Coalition just weeks/months from an election is too high to risk. As abhorrent as it is, I'd rather risk Haneef being in detention for a few weeks rather than losing the election. My rationale? That another term in power for Howard and the Coalition would bring worse violations than those suffered by Haneef. So, from a PR perspective, it was a completely logical decision.

And way to go to my Premier Beattie for actually having the guts to criticise the FP and Andrews.

I bet he cuts down trees for a living and regularly wins the pool contest at his local pub, too.

I refute your connection between pool-playing ability and boganess.

The signature kinda gives it away. There's not another human being on the planet who supports the Melbourne Victory. :D

Still, the point is not that Dr. Haneef is an immigrant, the point is that the government abused the immigration system to overrule the courts, which is a gross violation of the seperation of powers. And worse, Labor supports it.

lol, the Howard government doesn't know the meaning of 'separation of powers'. This is just one in a long line of power-grabs from both states and other law and policy institutions. It isn't even funny any more.

I think it's important to realize that both the PM and the Opposition Leader would have access to briefings about the investigation, which may contain information not disclosed in court, or of course publicly.

That is an important note. Apparently Andrews is trying to find out if he can release the extra information he had when he revoked Haneef's visa. If he does get clearance from the FP it will be interesting to see just how incriminating this evidence is.

I think Haneef appreciated the support from the Australian people who did, but I think it's the government he can't trust at all now. Well, I don't trust the current federal government with anything really, they'll just make a right royal mess it of it.

November will be so sweet.

Good read on the lawyer who worked on the case

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22147285-601,00.html

lol, interesting article. I'm sure he is probably a good bloke, but jeeze, he could do with a few lessons by a PR person about dealing with the media; does not give good interview lol.

Does the federal government not want to be re-elected?
If stuff like this happens around election a lot, Johnny Howard could be staging it. :p

:p

And a little update: Haneef is about home, Kevin Andrews may release some info he made his decision from as early as tomorrow and Andrews claims that Haneef going home has only heightened his suspicions. Surely he can't be serious? I mean, he was already going home when he was picked up, and now he is free he is going home. Guilty or innocent what else do you expect him to do?

I'm guessing Haneef's interview with 60 minutes will be on in about 15 mins here in Qld and anywhere else in our timezone. If the questions are of the same quality they were with that Gitmo guy whose name escapes me right now, it won't be worth watching.

And a little update: Haneef is about home, Kevin Andrews may release some info he made his decision from as early as tomorrow and Andrews claims that Haneef going home has only heightened his suspicions. Surely he can't be serious? I mean, he was already going home when he was picked up, and now he is free he is going home. Guilty or innocent what else do you expect him to do?

I'm guessing Haneef's interview with 60 minutes will be on in about 15 mins here in Qld and anywhere else in our timezone. If the questions are of the same quality they were with that Gitmo guy whose name escapes me right now, it won't be worth watching.

My first thought after reading this was "Gee, I'm glad I live in Australia where this sort of thing doesn't happen."

Then I remembered. I was happy, having managed to make myself forget everything that happened in the last ten years.

I'm guessing Haneef's interview with 60 minutes will be on in about 15 mins here in Qld and anywhere else in our timezone. If the questions are of the same quality they were with that Gitmo guy whose name escapes me right now, it won't be worth watching.

I was correct.

:p

Well, that guy has given both Bushie and Poland's potato a run for their money in a stupid contest.

If the questions are of the same quality they were with that Gitmo guy whose name escapes me right now, it won't be worth watching.

David Hicks?

Anyways, the police is blaming the Brit police now..

http://www.ibnlive.com/printpage.php?id=45816&section_id=2
UK gave us wrong info on Haneef: Aussie police
Agencies

New Delhi: Australia's police chief on Sunday said that the probe into the case of Indian doctor Mohammed Haneef, absolved of terror charges in connection with failed car bombings in UK, had faced several obstacles including wrong information from British investigators.

British police initially told Australian investigators that Haneef's SIM card had been found inside a jeep used by his second cousin Kafeel Ahmed in a failed car bombing in Glasgow on June 30.

Instead, the SIM card had been found in the home of Kafeel's brother, Sabeel, in Liverpool several hundred kilometres from the attack scene.

"Whatever else you may think of Haneef, the fact remains his SIM card was found in the possession of the person labelled as a suspect in the failed terror attack,” Australian Federal Police Commissioner Mick Keelty said.

Pointing to the two steps that went against the investigation team, Keelty said "One, Haneef attempted to leave the country on July 2. If we had let him go we would have been accused of letting a terrorist escape our shores."

“Secondly, once the Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) had advised the federal police to charge Haneef, they could no longer hold him in detention under the Government's counter-terrorism laws, “ he added.

"We were obliged to charge Haneef," Keelty said, agreeing that the DPP's advice may have been premature. "Had the DPP not said there was sufficient evidence to charge him, the investigation team could have continued detention or let him free while continuing the investigation."

Keelty said that the case had also been poorly handled by some sections of the media.

There is a lot of confusion at the beginning of any complex investigation. Errors in the investigation came to Australian police from the UK. The Australia police was under time pressures.

On Immigration Minister Kevin Andrews's intervention in the case, Keelty said "You can't blame Andrews (who cancelled Haneef's visa). "He acted on our information."

The Commissioner also expressed dismay at Queensland Premier Peter Beattie's criticism of the federal police as "Keystone Cops", pointing out that 200 Queensland police personnel were involved in the investigation and suggesting that Beattie had communication problems with his own police.

Keelty blamed the Queensland Department of Health for releasing Haneef's name to journalists and setting off media frenzy.:confused::rolleyes:

He said he would discuss with the Federal Government whether Andrews' decision to cancel Haneef's visa occurred at the most appropriate time in the investigation.

Keelty also called on the Bar Association of Queensland to severely reprimand Haneef's barrister Stephen Keim for leaking his client's police interview to the media.

Well, what does he get to make this fair?

Is it just me, or is Australia very tough on illegal immigration?

Is it just me, or is Australia very tough on illegal immigration?
You're not wrong there. They get shipped into offshore detention camps on islands (though there are a few in the mainland as well). The UN calls it questionable on human rights grounds, but as I said, the current government decided that being part of the free world isn't their thing anymore.

Well, what does he get to make this fair?

Not having to go back ?

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/jul/29glasgow3.htm?zcc=rl
I don't think Haneef will go back to Australia: Wife

David Hicks?

Anyways, the police is blaming the Brit police now..

http://www.ibnlive.com/printpage.php?id=45816&section_id=2

Nah, I meant Mamdouh Habib; Hicks has yet to be interviewed.

And that is an interesting article. Seems pretty convenient to blame the UK cops, but it does seem like a semi-valid excuse, at least.

Not having to go back ?

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/jul/29glasgow3.htm?zcc=rl
I don't think Haneef will go back to Australia: Wife

Meh, I don't know about that. It would surprise me either way really.

David Hicks?

Anyways, the police is blaming the Brit police now..

http://www.ibnlive.com/printpage.php?id=45816&section_id=2

Nah, I meant Mamdouh Habib; Hicks has yet to be interviewed.

And that is an interesting article. Seems pretty convenient to blame the UK cops, but it does seem like a semi-valid excuse, at least.

Not having to go back ?

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/jul/29glasgow3.htm?zcc=rl
I don't think Haneef will go back to Australia: Wife

Meh, I don't know about that. It wouldn't surprise me either way really.

Kevin Andrews put in a parting shot at Haneef because he left Australia as soon as he was released. Yeah, you want go home from a country which has used it's executive powers to treat you like a terrorist when you aren't one, would you?

Well, back home in Britian, the police now want powers for unlimited detention for anyone suspected of crimes involving terrorism. Considering the current governments record for supporting detention without trial on suspicion of terrorism, the recent (foiled) bombings, and the fact that the Great Leader is 'reviewing' terror legislation, they may well get it.

It seems dickery may well not be limited to the Australian government.

We're not much better in Canada. We allowed one of our citizens to be deported to Syria to be tortured because he sold computers to a guy who sold them to a guy who sold them to a guy who sold them to a guy who sold them to Al-Qaeda.

Speaking of terrorists, an ex-Liberal party member (female) married one of ex-Saddam Hussain's bodyguards, and he was allowed into Australia because of this.

Kevin Andrews put in a parting shot at Haneef because he left Australia as soon as he was released. Yeah, you want go home from a country which has used it's executive powers to treat you like a terrorist when you aren't one, would you?

Not to mention that his wife just gave birth to their first child.

This guy and that Keelty guy amaze me. I was thinking about vacationing in Auz and NZ some day...I still may....but I am less enthusiastic as I was before.

Not having to go back ?

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/jul/29glasgow3.htm?zcc=rl
I don't think Haneef will go back to Australia: Wife

What I meant is what will (or should) the Australian government (be forced to) do to make it up for what they did to this man? There HAS to be something.

What I meant is what will (or should) the Australian government (be forced to) do to make it up for what they did to this man? There HAS to be something.

Going by the lack of even a cursory apology by the Aus authorities, I think not having to go back is the best he can get out of this.

Speaking of terrorists, an ex-Liberal party member (female) married one of ex-Saddam Hussain's bodyguards, and he was allowed into Australia because of this.

That is just insane. An ex-bodyguard of Saddam has a character of good enough quality to be allowed to stay here freely but you give some terrorist cousin of yours a SIM card and you are granted bail by a magistrate and you're not? Unless this secret info Andrews has is pretty damning the man needs to be sacked.

He won't be, but. There is actually something about this in this month's edition of The Monthly magazine I think it was. In the run-up to the 1996 election a few of his party members had to quit because they came in conflict with the party's code of practice. The answer? To revise the code to make it so loose that it is nearly impossible to contravene it. This isn't really directly relevant as Andrews probably didn't do anything that contradicts the code of practice, but it is yet another example of Howard refusing to act against those in his party who deserve to be punished, such as Vanstone.

Speaking of terrorists, an ex-Liberal party member (female) married one of ex-Saddam Hussain's bodyguards, and he was allowed into Australia because of this.

That is just insane. An ex-bodyguard of Saddam has a character of good enough quality to be allowed to stay here freely but you give some terrorist cousin of yours a SIM card and you are granted bail by a magistrate and you're not? Unless this secret info Andrews has is pretty damning the man needs to be sacked.

He won't be, but. There is actually something about this in this month's edition of The Monthly magazine I think it was. In the run-up to the 1996 election a few of his party members had to quit because they came in conflict with the party's code of practice. The answer? To revise the code to make it so loose that it is nearly impossible to contravene it. This isn't really directly relevant as Andrews probably didn't do anything that contradicts the code of practice, but it is yet another example of Howard refusing to act against those in his party who deserve to be punished, such as Vanstone.

Not to mention that his wife just gave birth to their first child.

This guy and that Keelty guy amaze me. I was thinking about vacationing in Auz and NZ some day...I still may....but I am less enthusiastic as I was before.

Meh, don't let this deter you. I want to go to America some day; Iraq, Guantanamo etc hasn't changed this one iota.

You have to be careful, remember, mostly all these muslims are crazy extremists. They should round them all up!

You have to be careful, remember, mostly all these muslims are crazy extremists. They should round them all up!

What about the crazy gun-totting Christians in the USA?
:p

Meh, don't let this deter you. I want to go to America some day; Iraq, Guantanamo etc hasn't changed this one iota.

But I am brown. ;)

And I sometimes grow a beard.:eek:

But I am brown. ;)

And I sometimes grow a beard.:eek:

Haneef didn't have much of a beard either. :)

Haneef saga continues. Aus police released chat/email convos and I must say there is reason to doubt him as at least having some knowledge about something, however vague it is and however uninvolved he might be in the incident.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22169130-662,00.html
This is a summary of an email conversation between Haneef and his brother, Shuaib, on the afternoon of his attempted departure.

Haneef's brother, Shuaib says: "Nothing has been found out about you."

Shuaib goes on to ask when Dr Haneef would be getting out, to which he replied "today".

Shuaib asks if he has applied for leave from the hospital.

Dr Haneef tells his brother his baby was born in an emergency caesarean. The brother told him to "tell them that you have to as you have a daughter born -- do not tell them anything else".

The brother then said not to delay his departure and not to let anyone else use his number in Australia or give it to anyone.

The brother added that "Aunty told him that brother Kafeel used it: he is in some sort of project over there".

The brother also referred to the disturbance (incident) that happened.


And then there are reports that he had links with terrorist groups, one of which can be found here

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/aug/02glasgow.htm
Haneef had links with radicals: Report
Indian doctor Mohammed Haneef was regularly in contact with Islamic radicals under surveillance by British spy agency MI5, media reports in Melbourne said on Thursday while a dossier said to be made by Bangalore police alleged him of having contacts with Al Qaeda .

Highly classified intelligence documents leaked on Wednesday reveal the former Gold-Coast doctor "...still considered a person of interest by British and Australian investigators" made contact using medical chat rooms, international phone cards and phone boxes, The Courier Mail newspaper on Thursday said.

and this was promptly denied by the Indian police
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/haneef-alqaeda-link-denied/2007/08/02/1185648047650.html
Haneef al-Qaeda link denied
A senior Indian police officer today labelled as "incorrect and false" a media report that linked Indian doctor Mohamed Haneef to the al-Qaeda terrorist network.

Australia's SBS television yesterday reported that an Indian police file, completed after Dr Haneef's arrest in Australia, said the 27-year-old doctor had "alleged links with al-Qaeda".

Dr Haneef was later charged with recklessly supporting a terrorist organisation in relation to the recent failed attacks in London and Glasgow.

But the case collapsed due to a lack of evidence and he has since returned to India.

Gopal Hosur, Bangalore's deputy police commissioner, today said police in Dr Haneef's hometown did not even have a file on the doctor.

"That is all incorrect and false," he told The Associated Press of the media report.

"I don't know where they got this information from or who they're quoting."

Haneef saga continues. Aus police released chat/email convos and I must say there is reason to doubt him as at least having some knowledge about something, however vague it is and however uninvolved he might be in the incident.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22169130-662,00.html



And then there are reports that he had links with terrorist groups, one of which can be found here

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/aug/02glasgow.htm
Haneef had links with radicals: Report


and this was promptly denied by the Indian police
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/haneef-alqaeda-link-denied/2007/08/02/1185648047650.html
Haneef al-Qaeda link denied

Indeed the last few days has been interesting, but what is probably even more interesting is the information Andrews wanted to release but couldn't.

Indeed the last few days has been interesting, but what is probably even more interesting is the information Andrews wanted to release but couldn't.
Look, if it was worth anything it would have been used to charge him with something. As it is it's a bunch of stuff taken out of context from who-knows-where which wouldn't stand up in court.

This is now all about Andrews trying to keep his job and Howard helping him because of the election.

Look, if it was worth anything it would have been used to charge him with something. As it is it's a bunch of stuff taken out of context from who-knows-where which wouldn't stand up in court.

This is now all about Andrews trying to keep his job and Howard helping him because of the election.

Oh, I know how out-of-context the chat extracts probably are, and how miserably the original case failed. But nevertheless there is some other "information" yet to be revealed. I don't know whether it is more ambiguous evidence or something concrete that hasn't been revealed so as not to affect a possible piece of evidence they could use later and not as part of the charges they dropped because of time/political constraints. Until I see it I'll reserve judgement of Haneef's complete innocence, though I still strongly disagree with Andrews's (is that grammatically correct?) visa decision and that he should be replaced as immigration minister. But, as I said in another post, this will never happen because of Howard's deliberately low standards.

But nevertheless there is some other "information" yet to be revealed.
Meh, for all we know they're making stuff up. I wouldn't put it beyond them and it's outside the courts now, so no one can check.

Meh, for all we know they're making stuff up. I wouldn't put it beyond them and it's outside the courts now, so no one can check.

As incompetent as the handling of the case has been I seriously doubt they would actually claim other info that doesn't exist.

As incompetent as the handling of the case has been I seriously doubt they would actually claim other info that doesn't exist.

Well, it he's real terrorist when the people in charge of this case completely botched it. If there's evidence, then make sure it's right. They can't even be sure where that SIM card was.

As incompetent as the handling of the case has been I seriously doubt they would actually claim other info that doesn't exist.
Hehe, you're still assuming anyone in the Liberal leadership actually has principles?

Meh, if there was any sort of ethical or moral consistency behind what they believe, they would stop for a second and think about what they have actually done. But they don't, all they are concerned with is political survival, no matter what the cost.

As far as the opportunity for an election stunt was concerned, this one blew up in their faces. You don't actually think they'll leave out any scheme to minimise the damage, do you?

Well I think the real distinction to be made here is this, the DPP and Federal Police never had enough evidence to be prepared for a trial, this includes whatever 'secret' information the immigration minister had. So whatever Andrews knew, it wasn't enough to prove beyond reasonable doubt or even come to a trial to prove such. If the DPP etc still think he's guilty then why did they let him leave the country?

Well I think the real distinction to be made here is this, the DPP and Federal Police never had enough evidence to be prepared for a trial, this includes whatever 'secret' information the immigration minister had. So whatever Andrews knew, it wasn't enough to prove beyond reasonable doubt or even come to a trial to prove such. If the DPP etc still think he's guilty then why did they let him leave the country?

If this was handled correctly, they would have just released him early but government wanted to find a terrorist - even if there wasn't one.

Hehe, you're still assuming anyone in the Liberal leadership actually has principles?

Meh, if there was any sort of ethical or moral consistency behind what they believe, they would stop for a second and think about what they have actually done. But they don't, all they are concerned with is political survival, no matter what the cost.

As far as the opportunity for an election stunt was concerned, this one blew up in their faces. You don't actually think they'll leave out any scheme to minimise the damage, do you?

Doesn't have anything to do with the Libs. It is the federal police who are in charge of the investigation (which they claim is still ongoing) and who showed Andrews this special unseen evidence. They fucked up the other evidence but that was incompetence, not dishonesty.

As much as I hate them, I don't believe the Libs would ever "make up" evidence. But they would keep using evidence after they already know it is wrong (children overboard).

Doesn't have anything to do with the Libs. It is the federal police who are in charge of the investigation (which they claim is still ongoing) and who showed Andrews this special unseen evidence. They fucked up the other evidence but that was incompetence, not dishonesty.

As much as I hate them, I don't believe the Libs would ever "make up" evidence. But they would keep using evidence after they already know it is wrong (children overboard).

Well the terror laws are the handiwork of the Liberal party, and it's widely held they are the most extreme anti-terror laws in any nation post-9/11, albeit this is the only case they have ever been tried in, and it ended in failure despite blatant political interference from the dept of immigration. Either way it doesn't hold well for Howard if this case is his only example 'fighting terrorism'. It's also widely held the anti-terror laws are highly political, as in not political motivated (although that maybe true also) but they are highly subject to the disgression of certain ministers and their depts rather than the judiciary and police.

I must say, my position was swayed when the immigration minister released the internet convo records.
"no one has found anything about you yet"
"come home as soon as possible"
"the others are on another mission overseas"

Well the terror laws are the handiwork of the Liberal party, and it's widely held they are the most extreme anti-terror laws in any nation post-9/11, albeit this is the only case they have ever been tried in, and it ended in failure despite blatant political interference from the dept of immigration. Either way it doesn't hold well for Howard if this case is his only example 'fighting terrorism'. It's also widely held the anti-terror laws are highly political, as in not political motivated (although that maybe true also) but they are highly subject to the disgression of certain ministers and their depts rather than the judiciary and police.

Speaking of Liberals and terror laws: they're trying to give themselves even more powers to make sure another Haneef affair doesn't occur - in other words, to keep doing the same shit but without having to tell anyone about it.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/07/31/1185647903263.html?from=top5
"Under the laws, officers from the federal police and other agencies would be able to execute "delayed notification warrants", allowing them to undertake searches, seize equipment and plant listening devices in businesses and homes.
Police and security officers will be able to assume false identities to gain entry and conduct the surreptitious searches.
But the person affected by the raid does not have to be informed for at least six months, and can remain in the dark for 18 months if the warrant is rolled over." (emphasis added)

Say goodbye to the right to privacy...

On the face of it, this might look quite irrelevant. It is the case of a New Zealander who was refused readmission to Australia on character grounds, but nothing to do with terrorism:

smh.com.au/2007/08/03 (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/dungeon-found-in-pedophiles-backyard/2007/08/03/1185648103472.html)

My point is that I don't have a problem with that. The guy has criminal convictions for molesting children. Building a dungeon may not be illegal, but the immigration minister can point right at that and say "this person is refused a visa on the basis of bad character." I for one am OK with that.

Trusting the minister implicitly "because it's a terrorism case" and allowing the grant or refusal (or revocation!) of visas with NO ASSURANCE that the reasons will ever be made public, is entirely different.

I think a "character test" is not inherently wrong or unfair. But it shouldn't be invoked arbitrarily, at the discretion of the minister. The minister should be obliged to show reason, and if that reason isn't widely accepted as sufficient, disclose everything on which he based the 'character test' decision. The most allowance I'm prepared to make to "national security" is that that disclosure may be to the high court in camera. "Trust the minister" just isn't good enough. Never was, never will be.

It's not just about civil liberties or terrorism, it's a cynical attempt to bypass the department of immigration and it's proper consideration of applications for migrant status or asylum. And once the foreign national is refused a visa, any court is going to be wary of directly contradicting the minister, particularly if the minister has information which is deliberately not released to the court.

The Feds backed off in time. The incident might even count in their favour by election time ... "Better safe than sorry." Locking Haneef up in Villawood for weeks would have been a disaster for them. I bet they were praying the AFP would find new evidence and bring decent charges ... but before the election, the Feds need to show proper cause or else give the man his visa back so he can continue his career as a doctor.

Doesn't have anything to do with the Libs. It is the federal police who are in charge of the investigation (which they claim is still ongoing) and who showed Andrews this special unseen evidence.
Ah, yes, but what proof do I have that the Federal Police is an independent body? For more than a decade now the top brass of the Liberal Party and the top brass of the Federal Police have been attending the same dinner parties and complaining about the same brown people.

Maybe I'm just taking this more seriously than you because I'm here on a Permanent Residency Visa rather than citizenship, so this is something that could very easily happen to me. And the last thing I need is to spend two weeks in jail in order to help Howard win another election.

Ah, yes, but what proof do I have that the Federal Police is an independent body? For more than a decade now the top brass of the Liberal Party and the top brass of the Federal Police have been attending the same dinner parties and complaining about the same brown people.

Maybe I'm just taking this more seriously than you because I'm here on a Permanent Residency Visa rather than citizenship, so this is something that could very easily happen to me. And the last thing I need is to spend two weeks in jail in order to help Howard win another election.

Can you hold dual citizenship? I certainly wouldn't suggest giving up German citizenship for Australian, but with Dual, you can apply for Aus citizenship without compromising any other.

The only thing I'm certain of is that Britons can hold dual citizenship (Aus and UK).

Can you hold dual citizenship? I certainly wouldn't suggest giving up German citizenship for Australian, but with Dual, you can apply for Aus citizenship without compromising any other.
Well, the German government is a bit funny with allowing its citizens dual citizenship (but German citizenship law is a relic from the 19th century anyways).

I know that there is a loophole in which they will allow it if the person in question suffers negative consequences due to not being a citizen of the other country. I think I could feasibly claim that since I can't take part in HECS like normal citizens I suffer financially.

But that's a lot of bureaucracy and then I'd have to do that citizenship ceremony (and maybe even a test). I'm afraid that I'll end up being so cynical and outspoken about the whole thing that they'll send me to Gitmo or something. ;)

Well, the German government is a bit funny with allowing its citizens dual citizenship (but German citizenship law is a relic from the 19th century anyways).

I know that there is a loophole in which they will allow it if the person in question suffers negative consequences due to not being a citizen of the other country. I think I could feasibly claim that since I can't take part in HECS like normal citizens I suffer financially.

What about the negative consequences due to being a citizen of the other country? Like having to admit to Australian citizenry... :p
Let's face it, Australians are becoming international pariahs in the same way that Americans have been for several years.

But that's a lot of bureaucracy and then I'd have to do that citizenship ceremony (and maybe even a test). I'm afraid that I'll end up being so cynical and outspoken about the whole thing that they'll send me to Gitmo or something. ;)

As you're a furriner, they'll send you to Nauru. Usually for several years without access to communication with your family or a lawyer. Then they deport you, possibly at your expense.
But it's all very humane and just. ;)
As John Howard himself said, about this very case (Haneef), it's better to be safe than sorry.
I take comfort in that thought, maybe you should too. (why is there no emoticon for weeping?)

99% of us young people in Australia hate John Howard (except the rich kids, of course) and don't worry, the government has done plenty to disgrace itself. There's an election coming up in a few months and he's in real danger of losing, so he's trying to look all tough for the voters and we're not buying it. Trust me, if this doctor was white, they would have let him off, no worries at all.

:headbang: :sniper:

[...]
As John Howard himself said, about this very case (Haneef), it's better to be safe than sorry.


For him, it's better to be anything than sorry. ;)

Well the terror laws are the handiwork of the Liberal party, and it's widely held they are the most extreme anti-terror laws in any nation post-9/11, albeit this is the only case they have ever been tried in, and it ended in failure despite blatant political interference from the dept of immigration. Either way it doesn't hold well for Howard if this case is his only example 'fighting terrorism'. It's also widely held the anti-terror laws are highly political, as in not political motivated (although that maybe true also) but they are highly subject to the disgression of certain ministers and their depts rather than the judiciary and police.

It will be interesting to see if there are any major changes in the polls one way or the other. Even though we may have no hard evidence to make a causal relationship between the change and Haneef it would be interesting nonetheless.

Ah, yes, but what proof do I have that the Federal Police is an independent body? For more than a decade now the top brass of the Liberal Party and the top brass of the Federal Police have been attending the same dinner parties and complaining about the same brown people.

Meh. I'm not saying that some FP top brass wouldn't rather a Howard victory than a Rudd victory, and I'm as cynical as the next man, but I really have a hard time believing they would ever even think about creating fake evidence. If this got out they would face serious charges, and there is nothing I've ever seen or heard of that would suggest they are that easily corruptible. It's like something that you might hear happening in Russia. Obviously that doesn't mean it can't happen here but really, it seems like a baseless allegation. There is a difference between incompetence and corruption (especially at that level).

What about the negative consequences due to being a citizen of the other country? Like having to admit to Australian citizenry... :p
Let's face it, Australians are becoming international pariahs in the same way that Americans have been for several years.

While I believe this, to what to extent is it actually true? I mean, I don't see all our shameful actions of the past decade (except maybe Iraq and a few other things) making that much of a splash in the media overseas to the average person. Then again I have no idea- can anyone in Europe vouch for how rarely (or often?) Australia is mentioned in the media and whether our perception (if we have one) has changed in the last 10 years?

For him, it's better to be anything than sorry. ;)

He does seem to be violently allergic to the word, doesn't he?


While I believe this, to what to extent is it actually true? I mean, I don't see all our shameful actions of the past decade (except maybe Iraq and a few other things) making that much of a splash in the media overseas to the average person. Then again I have no idea- can anyone in Europe vouch for how rarely (or often?) Australia is mentioned in the media and whether our perception (if we have one) has changed in the last 10 years?

I've heard Australia referred to as "the new South Africa" so many times in the last seven or eight years (outside of Oz, obviously) - basically ever since the institution of the detention camps and the "Pacific Solution".

Australia isn't exactly getting persistent or thorough media coverage (if such a thing exists any more) overseas, because it's fundamentally trivial on the world stage.
But pretty much any time anything 'newsworthy' comes out of Australia, it's something like 'children overboard' or the Haneef stumbling. The overall perception that I've experienced (and, frankly, contributed to whenever possible) is that Australia is a racist-as-fuck Second World holiday destination, with a jumped-up toad of a PM who thinks he's George Bush Jr, Jr.

Australia is a racist-as-fuck Second World holiday destination, with a jumped-up toad of a PM who thinks he's George Bush Jr, Jr.

Yes, there is a large population of racist yobs and yes, Howard is a smarmy conservative half-wit, but your description sounds exaggerated: Australia is a first-class tourist destination. :p

But seriously, Australia is third on the HDI behind Iceland and Norway, so it can't be that bad of a country to live in.