NationStates Jolt Archive

I have an odd issue and was wondering if the good people of NS forums can help me out. I'm occasionally nervous around women but don't know why. This might be a bit of a read but I’ll try to condense much of it as possible.

Background story: I’m a 17 year old “eligible bachelor” without any previous adolescent relationships because I’m really shy around women. I used to be quite alright with women when I was little, I had several “girlfriends” in elementary and middle school back when I didn’t even like girls. But as I started to like females when puberty kicked in, I started getting really nervous around women. For the last 4-5 years from 7th to 11th grade, there have been many instances where a girl and I have liked each other, but I never had the cojones to ask any of them out and thus nothing happened.

Last October I got really fed up with it so I started reading up on lots and lots of different psychology, sociology and dating articles so I could overcome my problem. I also started working out every single day so I can feel better about myself physically.

I made the assumption that women would be judging men on three factors, physical looks, intelligence, and social skills.

Physically, I’m 5’10 or 175 cm, which is the exact 50% percentile for male height in both the states and england. My weight went down from 168 to 147 lbs since I started working out and eating healthier, and my upper body is relatively toned and thin. (Not muscular though. Kind of like a skater, tennis player or track runner body type) As for facial features, I think I’m relatively attractive (or at least not ugly) because usually I can make a pretty positive first impression. I dress in a mix of indie-ish clothing and vintage victorian so that might be a bit odd in America but there’s quite a bit of people in the counterculture so I think that’s not too much of a problem.

Intellectually I think I’m alright there as well. I can make pretty good marks while taking AP (college levelled) courses in high school. According to the education system here I’m classified as “gifted”, and I am also currently doing cardiovascular research at our local hospital over the summer.

Socially I think I’ve improved a lot in the past school year. My biggest achievement so far is getting past my bias of high school cliques. I’ve learned not to judge people by appearance and I can get along well with just about everyone in school regardless of clique or parental income (our school has a bit of a rich kid/poor kid divide). According to my friends I have good social skills, I try to respect everyone and I usually do my best to treat others with kindness. I know quite a bit of people too and was able to get 49.6 % of the votes during our school’s class rep elections (apparently there’s a huge conspiracy theory going around about how a certain admin in our school didn’t want a left-winged, middle-class, counterculture, minority, pagan as president so they fixed the elections but that’s long story).

Oh yeah, almost got off track sorry. Here’s the problem.

I get really nervous occasionally when I’m meeting women. I’ve done all sorts of mental exercises to calm myself down, but for some reason I always get this “deer in the headlights” feeling whenever I’m talking to an attractive female. Even though I’m in the odd counterculture group at school, I still have a good number of attractive female friends that I often talk to and hang out with. But despite what I tell myself (for instance “no matter how stunningly beautiful a woman is, she's still a human being with basic human needs, stop assuming things, assumption is the basis of all mistakes in life, just be yourself, you’re not ugly, stupid nor antisocial so just relax and calm down”) I always get really tense and it makes me feel uncomfortable. I know exactly what to say, and I know the social cues for flirting as well (ex: eye contact, mirror movement, empathetic emotions, friendly gestures, etc) but it’s like no matter how much I practice talking to women and just random people in general, I can never get past the shyness or nervousness on occasions.

Well, there was one time where I got a lot of sleep and woke up and felt great, and I went to renew my driver’s permit and my proctor was this really attractive blonde lady and I tried my best to relax and attempted to flirt with her, and by some odd miracle, despite failing the vision test horribly, she let me pass and smiled and said “have a nice day, sweetie!”. I felt completely shocked and euphoric but the feeling soon passed and I went back to my occasional nervous self.

During the last couple of days, I’ve also tried to practice talking to everyone that I meet so I wouldn’t feel so nervous when I’m talking to women. I work at the hospital so there’s plenty of opportunities for that, I’d always try to smile and say hi to doctors, professors, students, nurses, janitors, patients, etc and find every chance I get to interact with people and start conversations in the elevators, cafeterias, laboratories, etc. But whenever I see an attractive college girl walking by or in the elevators, I can say hi, smile, nod and perhaps engage in a brief friendly conversation but it feels like I’m standing in front of a train. I get so self conscious about everything and start thinking to myself “am I smiling naturally? Am I saying the right things?” when it doesn’t matter at all.

Today, I tried so hard (perhaps a bit too hard) to interact with random people that I ended up getting nervous around everyone by the end of the day. Then I got home and realised that a girl from my school (whom I’ve found quite attractive) left me a message asking me to go see the new Harry potter movie with her. I was so nervous and exhausted from “practicing” my social skills that I politely declined. I didn’t want to risk having a nervous breakdown. Illogical much?

Oh, I've also never formally asked a girl out before. It took me a year before I had the courage to tell a girl that I liked her in 7th grade, she said that made her really happy, but unfortunately it was also my last day at that school before I moved away.

Is there a biological disease that makes people nervous around women? I know there’s a quasi-medical term called caligynephobia but that’s mostly a scam by companies trying to sell “dating for dummies books”.

Thanks for your time.

Just start talking to them. You'll say some pretty retarded shit at first, but with practice you'll get over it.

It helps if you have a job that requires it as it kinda forces you to get somewhat over it.

*sits back and awaits suggestions.*

yeah... me too Port Arcana, me too.

I'm a lady and I felt the same way with meeting guys.

My suggestion: try to relax and be yourself, and don't worry to the point of immobility about "how do I make myself likable". You're likable. You're worth knowing. Try to fake a little more confidence and who knows -- you may feel more confident. That's what will impress someone off the bat anyhow.

As for the young lady who you turned down -- leave her a message inviting her out to the movies or for a coffee or something. She would not have asked you out if she didn't want to be with you!

Get your head out of figures and be less introspective.

Far, far easier said than done, I know, but hey, that's how things are.

I think the nervousness is normal. :p

What you need is pretext - it's always easier to stir up a conversation when you have ample pretext, and from there it gets easier. That said, I don't talk to women personally, but not out of nervousness. I get along well with my female co-workers just fine, so I sort of assume I'd get along well with women in general. :p

*sits back and awaits suggestions.*

yeah... me too Port Arcana, me too.
*Pulls up lawn chair*

Start smoking. All cool people smoke. I learned that from hollywood.

Well women (usually) are never interested in how smart a guy is so throw that assumption out the window.

Well women (usually) are never interested in how smart a guy is so throw that assumption out the window.

Also top advice.

Start smoking. All cool people smoke. I learned that from hollywood.

Totally. :p

Well first you should be comfortable with the fact that what you're going through is entirely natural, experienced by a great many 17 year olds of both sexes and is nothing to worry about as a condition itself - your hormones are simply, for want of a better word, raging.

So don't worry about whether it's a problem or not. Given you're getting attention from the opposite sex, your looks don't seem to be a problem either - remember that for every guy out there looking for a girl, there's an equal and opposite girl looking for a guy.

The solution is a catch-22 - you need to get laid.

The thing is, at this age, one worries about being made fun of, for being ham-fisted, for not being debonair, for making a fool of oneself. the only thing I can say is that time heals all and people make fools of themselves all the time. It makes for some great stories.

Don't be afraid of being a fool in love.

Well women (usually) are never interested in how smart a guy is so throw that assumption out the window.

False.

Well women (usually) are never interested in how smart a guy is so throw that assumption out the window.

It really depends on the woman, everyone is looking for something different.

All one can do is be honest about how they present themselves, because you want someone to like you for who you truly are, and not a paper image just to dissapoint them later on...and bathe often...Hygeine works...

The solution is a catch-22 - you need to get laid.

False. Getting laid just to get over your anxieties won't solve the problem. Well...it might for some people, but most people I talk to who've had this problem themselves find some way to get over it that doesn't include that.

Myself, I too had anxiety issues...still do in a sense. However, I'm comfortable just being myself, and if I happen to strike up conversation with some girl, I just let it be a natural conversation. I don't put expectations into it, but I am still open to what may come.

Just go with the flow between the two of you. It'll work itself out.

Start smoking. All cool people smoke. I learned that from hollywood.
*nods, albeit reservedly with the smoking ban and all*
Well women (usually) are never interested in how smart a guy is so throw that assumption out the window.
Smart =/= being a nerdy wanker.

This is something many seemingly do not understand on their quest for self-pity and excuses as to why they're not as popular as they think they should be to the opposite sex. Or their own, if that's their thing.

Just relax and don't try to hard. Also don't get your hopes up and expect failure. If you expect to fail, there's no pressure and thus no nervousness. Plus you will be pleasantly surprise when you succeed. I never had a problem talking or interacting with women but I do get nervous with job interviews. And it works there.

False.

It really depends on the woman, everyone is looking for something different.

All one can do is be honest about how they present themselves, because you want someone to like you for who you truly are, and not a paper image just to dissapoint them later on...and bathe often...Hygeine works...That's why I said usually. If you're looking for an intelligent women than by all means display your vast intellect. The majority of women won't, however, be interested in your ACT score. Smelling good is a must.

I have felt the exact same way before, still do once and a while.
However, the fact that you have done...research, on the whole situation is admirable, but it shows you overanalyzed the whole thing. In the end the social interaction is pretty much instinctual, so don't spend so much time worrying about it.

*nods, albeit reservedly with the smoking ban and all*

Smart =/= being a nerdy wanker.

This is something many seemingly do not understand on their quest for self-pity and excuses as to why they're not as popular as they think they should be to the opposite sex. Or their own, if that's their thing.

Sure, but if you're *truly* smart, you'll let her think you're far beneath her intellectual level, whether you really are or not. ;) Ask any couple who have been married more than ten years. :p

I have an odd issue and was wondering if the good people of NS forums can help me out. I'm occasionally nervous around women but don't know why. This might be a bit of a read but I’ll try to condense much of it as possible.

Background story: I’m a 17 year old “eligible bachelor” without any previous adolescent relationships because I’m really shy around women. I used to be quite alright with women when I was little, I had several “girlfriends” in elementary and middle school back when I didn’t even like girls. But as I started to like females when puberty kicked in, I started getting really nervous around women. For the last 4-5 years from 7th to 11th grade, there have been many instances where a girl and I have liked each other, but I never had the cojones to ask any of them out and thus nothing happened.

Last October I got really fed up with it so I started reading up on lots and lots of different psychology, sociology and dating articles so I could overcome my problem. I also started working out every single day so I can feel better about myself physically.

I made the assumption that women would be judging men on three factors, physical looks, intelligence, and social skills.

Physically, I’m 5’10 or 175 cm, which is the exact 50% percentile for male height in both the states and england. My weight went down from 168 to 147 lbs since I started working out and eating healthier, and my upper body is relatively toned and thin. (Not muscular though. Kind of like a skater, tennis player or track runner body type) As for facial features, I think I’m relatively attractive (or at least not ugly) because usually I can make a pretty positive first impression. I dress in a mix of indie-ish clothing and vintage victorian so that might be a bit odd in America but there’s quite a bit of people in the counterculture so I think that’s not too much of a problem.

Intellectually I think I’m alright there as well. I can make pretty good marks while taking AP (college levelled) courses in high school. According to the education system here I’m classified as “gifted”, and I am also currently doing cardiovascular research at our local hospital over the summer.

Socially I think I’ve improved a lot in the past school year. My biggest achievement so far is getting past my bias of high school cliques. I’ve learned not to judge people by appearance and I can get along well with just about everyone in school regardless of clique or parental income (our school has a bit of a rich kid/poor kid divide). According to my friends I have good social skills, I try to respect everyone and I usually do my best to treat others with kindness. I know quite a bit of people too and was able to get 49.6 % of the votes during our school’s class rep elections (apparently there’s a huge conspiracy theory going around about how a certain admin in our school didn’t want a left-winged, middle-class, counterculture, minority, pagan as president so they fixed the elections but that’s long story).

Oh yeah, almost got off track sorry. Here’s the problem.

I get really nervous occasionally when I’m meeting women. I’ve done all sorts of mental exercises to calm myself down, but for some reason I always get this “deer in the headlights” feeling whenever I’m talking to an attractive female. Even though I’m in the odd counterculture group at school, I still have a good number of attractive female friends that I often talk to and hang out with. But despite what I tell myself (for instance “no matter how stunningly beautiful a woman is, she's still a human being with basic human needs, stop assuming things, assumption is the basis of all mistakes in life, just be yourself, you’re not ugly, stupid nor antisocial so just relax and calm down”) I always get really tense and it makes me feel uncomfortable. I know exactly what to say, and I know the social cues for flirting as well (ex: eye contact, mirror movement, empathetic emotions, friendly gestures, etc) but it’s like no matter how much I practice talking to women and just random people in general, I can never get past the shyness or nervousness on occasions.

Well, there was one time where I got a lot of sleep and woke up and felt great, and I went to renew my driver’s permit and my proctor was this really attractive blonde lady and I tried my best to relax and attempted to flirt with her, and by some odd miracle, despite failing the vision test horribly, she let me pass and smiled and said “have a nice day, sweetie!”. I felt completely shocked and euphoric but the feeling soon passed and I went back to my occasional nervous self.

During the last couple of days, I’ve also tried to practice talking to everyone that I meet so I wouldn’t feel so nervous when I’m talking to women. I work at the hospital so there’s plenty of opportunities for that, I’d always try to smile and say hi to doctors, professors, students, nurses, janitors, patients, etc and find every chance I get to interact with people and start conversations in the elevators, cafeterias, laboratories, etc. But whenever I see an attractive college girl walking by or in the elevators, I can say hi, smile, nod and perhaps engage in a brief friendly conversation but it feels like I’m standing in front of a train. I get so self conscious about everything and start thinking to myself “am I smiling naturally? Am I saying the right things?” when it doesn’t matter at all.

Today, I tried so hard (perhaps a bit too hard) to interact with random people that I ended up getting nervous around everyone by the end of the day. Then I got home and realised that a girl from my school (whom I’ve found quite attractive) left me a message asking me to go see the new Harry potter movie with her. I was so nervous and exhausted from “practicing” my social skills that I politely declined. I didn’t want to risk having a nervous breakdown. Illogical much?

Oh, I've also never formally asked a girl out before. It took me a year before I had the courage to tell a girl that I liked her in 7th grade, she said that made her really happy, but unfortunately it was also my last day at that school before I moved away.

Is there a biological disease that makes people nervous around women? I know there’s a quasi-medical term called caligynephobia but that’s mostly a scam by companies trying to sell “dating for dummies books”.

Thanks for your time.

Thank God I'm not the only man who has that trouble.

If I didn't know better, I'd swear I wrote that, it describes me so well.

But whenever I see an attractive college girl walking by or in the elevators, I can say hi, smile, nod and perhaps engage in a brief friendly conversation but it feels like I’m standing in front of a train. I get so self conscious about everything and start thinking to myself “am I smiling naturally? Am I saying the right things?” when it doesn’t matter at all.

That's me almost exactly, except I can't convince myself that it doesn't matter.

I know exactly what to say, and I know the social cues for flirting as well (ex: eye contact, mirror movement, empathetic emotions, friendly gestures, etc) but it’s like no matter how much I practice talking to women and just random people in general, I can never get past the shyness or nervousness on occasions.

You're a lot better off than I am; I DON'T know any social cues for flirting, but otherwise ditto for the most part.

According to my friends I have good social skills, I try to respect everyone and I usually do my best to treat others with kindness.

Same here, except I don't have any social skills, at least not in my own opinion. At the very least, I don't have enough social skills to feel confident in trying to deal with women.

I wish somebody would lend a sympathetic...no, make that empathetic ear and try to help me instead of just looking at me like I'm crazy or something. :(

It's times like these I'm glad I'm married to a hot senorita. :p

Further to the excellent smoking advice I dispensed, take up dangerous sports.

Go running wif teh bulls. Take up extreme whitewater rafting. Sail across the atlantic solo in winter.

Women dig that sort of thing.

http://www.talktofrank.com/uploadedImages/Drugs/LARGE%20PHOTOS_ALCOHOL.jpg

I'd avoid those particuler drinks though

not just because there 2-d objects on your monitor most likely taken at a pervy counselors house...

I need some help and suggestions on how to talk to women and how to make them interested in me romantically.

I'm a lady and I felt the same way with meeting guys.

I find that very difficult to believe. Almost as difficult as talking to a woman. I always imagine women as completely confident and not worried about anything.

My suggestion: try to relax and be yourself, and don't worry to the point of immobility about "how do I make myself likable".

That's easy for you to say, but I simply don't know HOW.

You're likable. You're worth knowing.

Yeah, people have told me that, but I don't want to be merely "likable" or "worth knowing"; I want to be thought of as worth a long-term relationship.

Try to fake a little more confidence and who knows -- you may feel more confident. That's what will impress someone off the bat anyhow.

Well, if I've impressed them, they've got ME fooled into believing otherwise.

http://www.talktofrank.com/uploadedImages/Drugs/LARGE%20PHOTOS_ALCOHOL.jpg

I'd avoid those particuler drinks though

not just because there 2-d objects on your monitor most likely taken at a pervy counselors house...
Excellent abuse of the Frank website.

My personal recommendation would be gin, and much of it. Goes straight to your head.

A G&T and some marlboros = rather spiff.

I find that very difficult to believe. Almost as difficult as talking to a woman. I always imagine women as completely confident and not worried about anything.

That's your first misconception to get rid of.

That's your first misconception to get rid of.

If it is such a misconception, then they've got ME fooled, because in my experience they always act cool and calm, like they don't have to think about what they say or do, like they were (for lack of a better way of saying it) BORN with complete knowledge of what to do/say in any and every social situation (which is exactly the opposite of how I feel, and I don't know how to hide it), even to the point of making me even more uncomfortable.

I need some help and suggestions on how to talk to women and how to make them interested in me romantically.

get some lady friends, they have this weird habit of making there single friends think your this awesome tornado of leaving the seat down :p

at that point they will have some idealistic dream of a man who transforms into a 21 year old Spaniard named Raoul if they sleep with you allowing you to stutter all night long

If it is such a misconception, then they've got ME fooled, because in my experience they always act cool and calm, like they don't have to think about what they say or do, like they were (for lack of a better way of saying it) BORN with complete knowledge of what to do/say in any and every social situation, which is exactly the opposite of how I feel, and I don't know how to hide it.
No really, it's a misconception. Everyone wings it.

The very famous founder of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy had the exact same problem. Read here how he overcame it:

http://www.rebtnetwork.org/ask/may06.html

Well women (usually) are never interested in how smart a guy is so throw that assumption out the window.

Now come on, that's not true.

For the record, I get nervous talking to women too, still. I am trying to make myself do it just like Ellis did. Well, not the whole park bench thing, but in a more figurative sense.

The very famous founder of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy had the exact same problem. Read here how he overcame it:

http://www.rebtnetwork.org/ask/may06.html

Wow, thanks for the insightful replies everyone. I especially enjoyed the alcohol one. :D

And Cheers Ilie... I'm bookmarking that site. :P

Keep them coming! Looks like I'm not the only one benefiting here. :)

get some lady friends, they have this weird habit of making there single friends think your this awesome tornado of leaving the seat down :p

at that point they will have some idealistic dream of a man who transforms into a 21 year old Spaniard named Raoul if they sleep with you allowing you to stutter all night long

I seem to have no trouble making (platonic) friends with women old enough to be my mother, but it's women MY OWN AGE that I can't seem to get anywhere with. If I start a friendship with a woman my age, I want it to lead beyond a mere platonic friendship; I'm looking for someone to spend the rest of my life with, or if not the rest of my life, then at least a huge chunk of it.

No really, it's a misconception. Everyone wings it.

Well evidently they know how not to act like they're winging it, whereas I do NOT.

Thank God I'm not the only man who has that trouble.

If I didn't know better, I'd swear I wrote that, it describes me so well.



That's me almost exactly, except I can't convince myself that it doesn't matter.



You're a lot better off than I am; I DON'T know any social cues for flirting, but otherwise ditto for the most part.



Same here, except I don't have any social skills, at least not in my own opinion. At the very least, I don't have enough social skills to feel confident in trying to deal with women.

I wish somebody would lend a sympathetic...no, make that empathetic ear and try to help me instead of just looking at me like I'm crazy or something. :(

You've got it. How can I help?

You're thinking about it too much, man. You just need to chill out. Smoke a doob or something if you have to. ;) Scratch your balls or make a corny joke. Anything to break the pressure.

You said you were too tired from worrying about this jive to go watch Harry Potter with this girl? Sounds to me like you missed a golden opportunity. Maybe, since you're mentally weary, you'll stop the worrying, second-guessing, and inner turmoil you have going, and just be. Forget all the crap you've read in articles and books. They're based on stereotypes, and hopefully you aren't one of those, otherwise you're doomed.

You say you have alot of foxy female friends, so ask them to help out. Confidence is key, so ask this girl to go see Harry Potter and to dinner. Take along one of your girl-friends and have her bring her beau along. Just relax and hang out. Treat her like any dude that you don't care about hooking up with. But with boobies.

That's my advice, though thankfully I've never had problems with being nervous around women. My problem was always arrogance. :) Being utterly convinced of my own superiority always gave me a certain edge over more attractive but less confident men.

Luck with it bud.

If it is such a misconception, then they've got ME fooled, because in my experience they always act cool and calm, like they don't have to think about what they say or do, like they were (for lack of a better way of saying it) BORN with complete knowledge of what to do/say in any and every social situation (which is exactly the opposite of how I feel, and I don't know how to hide it), even to the point of making me even more uncomfortable.

Oh man, I guess there are people who are like that. Personally, I overanalyze social situations and scare the shit out of myself. I know a lot of people who do that. Somewhere in the middle is the rest of humanity, people who are insecure and faking good or people who are so insecure that they are hiding and you don't know they exist anyway. A good place to meet girls like that is the internet. ;)

You are absolutely not going to want to hear this, but you've already taken the single biggest step -- throwing yourself into the situation. The next step is simply 'rinse and repeat.' I wish it weren't so, but there's absolutely nothing like experience. All you can do is talk to them and keep talking...and focus on learning from your experiences. You'll make mistakes, and it probably won't happen overnight...but give it time.

The very famous founder of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy had the exact same problem. Read here how he overcame it:

http://www.rebtnetwork.org/ask/may06.html

Hmm, that's fascinating. Thanks for the link...who knows, maybe it'll give me the kick in the ass I need to go out and start meeting girls. :)

Hmm, that's fascinating. Thanks for the link...who knows, maybe it'll give me the kick in the ass I need to go out and start meeting girls. :)

Thanks, glad you like it! We're all rooting for you...all. :)

You've got it. How can I help?

Well, where do I begin? (*30-second pause*)

Every time someone says a girl's interested in me, after I meet her the mutual friend says she only wants to be "friends" with me, and that's better than nothing, but I want to get romantically involved with a woman, not just be "friends" with her, but I don't know how to (*5-minute pause while I think about how to say this*) make the leap/transition/however you say it, from friends to dates.

And oftentimes, I have trouble even making friends with women. Whenever I try to talk to one, I feel like a fool, and she seems to be uninterested in knowing me.

Also, I've been told in the past that women have flirted with me, but I didn't know it at the time. Once when I was eating supper at a restaurant with my father and some friends of ours, he told me after we left that the waitress had been flirting with me, but it sure didn't seem like it to me. To me she appeared to be criticizing my facial expressions and my attitude, which hurt my feelings and made me depressed, but my father said she was flirting. I said to him, "If she was flirting she needs to be a little more overt with it, because I couldn't tell!" He replied, "I don't know how she could have been more overt! It was very plain to me!"

And I need education as to "social cues", "dropping/taking hints", "nuances", and "subtleties", in a social context, because after my ex-girlfriend broke up with me (this has been over five years ago and I haven't had a girlfriend since), a mutual friend of mine and hers kept telling me that my ex had been "dropping hints" as to this and that, and I didn't pick up on them.

Well, where do I begin? (*30-second pause*)

Every time someone says a girl's interested in me, after I meet her the mutual friend says she only wants to be "friends" with me, and that's better than nothing, but I want to get romantically involved with a woman, not just be "friends" with her, but I don't know how to (*5-minute pause while I think about how to say this*) make the leap/transition/however you say it, from friends to dates.

And oftentimes, I have trouble even making friends with women. Whenever I try to talk to one, I feel like a fool, and she seems to be uninterested in knowing me.

Also, I've been told in the past that women have flirted with me, but I didn't know it at the time. Once when I was eating supper at a restaurant with my father and some friends of ours, he told me after we left that the waitress had been flirting with me, but it sure didn't seem like it to me. To me she appeared to be criticizing my facial expressions and my attitude, which hurt my feelings and made me depressed, but my father said she was flirting. I said to him, "If she was flirting she needs to be a little more overt with it, because I couldn't tell!" He replied, "I don't know how she could have been more overt! It was very plain to me!"

Has anyone ever told you that you have trouble reading social cues, or that you might have Asperger's Syndrome? Barring that, I guess some people are more oblivious than others.

I'm not sure how to help you pick up on whether somebody is flirting with you or not, but I CAN tell you that dealing with "women" directly is a lot more effective than taking cues from their friends. Only wimpy guys follow the direction of a girl's friends, maybe that is why they only want to be friends with you after this friend has basically set up some kind of awkward meeting between you two.

If you want it to be more than friends, you have to approach the girls you like directly. If you hear from a friend of some girl that they like you, make a joke about it and basically be like, she'll have to come to me about that, won't she? You have to act pretty confident. Fake it till you make it, that's what I always say. ;)

You said: a certain admin in our school didn’t want a left-winged, middle-class, counterculture, minority, pagan as president

Since you've attributed all these characteristics to yourself, I assume you're happy as you are. Suggestion: forget about who you are and pay close attention to who she is. Try asking women/girls to tell you about themselves and what they're interested in. With luck, you'll find some common interests that you can talk about. If not, try hitting on a different female - we've got over 150 million of them in this country, there's no shortage of candidates.

There's an old joke about a guy who stands on a corner asking every attractive female who passes to have sex with him. Typically, they slap his face and tell him off. When asked why he does this, his answer goes: "only one woman in 100 is interested. So, after I get 99 slaps in the face, the next time I get laid. Each time I get slapped I figure I'm getting closer to my goal." If you're a bit more tactful, you won't get slapped in the first place. Finding the right chick is a numbers game and the more you try the less nervous you'll get.

I seem to have no trouble making (platonic) friends with women old enough to be my mother, but it's women MY OWN AGE that I can't seem to get anywhere with.

well whats wrong with the women old enough to be your mother? :p

If I start a friendship with a woman my age, I want it to lead beyond a mere platonic friendship; I'm looking for someone to spend the rest of my life with, or if not the rest of my life, then at least a huge chunk of it.

well:
1) you are going to need to make friends with a woman at some point especially a girlfriends friends who have the ability to crush you

2) being friends with a girl will give you some experience in the affairs of the female

3) relationships at 17 (and any age really) always start out as just some fun, if your going around left, right and up talking about marriage and such you will just look like your out to carve your name into peoples heads when there sleeping

4) a girl can help you much more with this than any internet forum

Plan A
1) Send in an emissary to establish diplomatic relations.

2) Make a debut public appearance yourself. Don't tent your fingers or cackle with insane glee.

3) Monitor over time... see if the resources she has are what you're looking for. Guage whether you have resources to establish mutually beneficial trade.

4) Be sure not to ignore her allies. Their view can make or break you. Prison strategy of picking the biggest and taking her out for respect won't work.

5) Get her hooked, somewhat dependent or at least interested in your resources.

6) At an opportune moment, isolate her from her allies.

7) Annex.

Advice with a grain of salt
1) Don't think for a minute there is a skeleton key to every woman's heart. Sometimes it takes years of friendship... sometimes it takes a nice comment about her shoes.

2) You really shouldn't have to try to hard to talk to her. If you can't find anything for the two of you to talk about... well... chances are you're not very compatible. Whatever you do, look her in the eyes not the chest.

3) Be confident in yourself, share your passions (the G to PG-13 rated ones). Women like passion. No passion? No chance.

4) If you approach a girl nicely, what is really the worst thing that can happen?

5) I'll tell you what the worst thing that could happen is. You find out either immediately or over the course of the next few interactions whether there is a spark. (and that spark comes off the ciggarette you were smoking to look cool and it lands in her hair)

6) Never refer to "it" as annexing.

7) Learn to laugh at yourself, cuz it'll all be hilarious in 10 years

Cheers.

You are absolutely not going to want to hear this, but you've already taken the single biggest step -- throwing yourself into the situation. The next step is simply 'rinse and repeat.' I wish it weren't so, but there's absolutely nothing like experience. All you can do is talk to them and keep talking...and focus on learning from your experiences. You'll make mistakes, and it probably won't happen overnight...but give it time.

Yeah, but I don't know what mistakes I am making, and nobody will tell me; they just look at me like I'm crazy for not knowing without being told.

Well, where do I begin? (*30-second pause*)

Every time someone says a girl's interested in me, after I meet her the mutual friend says she only wants to be "friends" with me, and that's better than nothing, but I want to get romantically involved with a woman, not just be "friends" with her, but I don't know how to (*5-minute pause while I think about how to say this*) make the leap/transition/however you say it, from friends to dates.

And oftentimes, I have trouble even making friends with women. Whenever I try to talk to one, I feel like a fool, and she seems to be uninterested in knowing me.

Also, I've been told in the past that women have flirted with me, but I didn't know it at the time. Once when I was eating supper at a restaurant with my father and some friends of ours, he told me after we left that the waitress had been flirting with me, but it sure didn't seem like it to me. To me she appeared to be criticizing my facial expressions and my attitude, which hurt my feelings and made me depressed, but my father said she was flirting. I said to him, "If she was flirting she needs to be a little more overt with it, because I couldn't tell!" He replied, "I don't know how she could have been more overt! It was very plain to me!"

Wait another year or so, and it'll be very plain to you as well. Let your hormones get under control before you try anything.

In the meantime, methinks you're treating women as if they're a wee bit too different, if you know what I mean. Don't even think about yourself when you talk, and this isn't just for talking to women (though it's a safe bet to think about what you say). Just talk, and you should be fine.

See, just before I turned seventeen, I came to the conclusion that men and women are the same, just with different organs and hormones. So, why should I be nervous around one just because they look or sound different from the other? Because you see, when you get right down to it, we're pretty much the same... And there's no reason to be nervous or jittery around the opposite sex, that is, unless your hormones are raging. And if that's the case, your best course of action is to control them as much as possible and maintain a level head.

I can't tell you how many times women my age have flirted with me and/or made gestures, but to be honest, I wasn't having any of it, and I'm still not... Because really, I've got too much shit going on to worry about that at this point in time, and even if I had the opportunity, I'd most likely not bother, as most of them aren't my type. Then there's the chance for friends with benefits, but that can create all kinds of shit that I would rather not get into at the moment.

See where I'm going with this?

2) being friends with a girl will give you some experience in the affairs of the female

Well, that's just fantastic. I hope to somebody's god that you don't honestly believe that.

You speak as if women are another species.

Changing Mottos, I think this will be relatively helpful to you. :)

I read it a few months ago, practiced a few times and it became second nature. Now if only I could fake some confidence while doing it... :D

http://www.bbc.co.uk/relationships/singles_and_dating/techniques_flirting.shtml

Has anyone ever told you that you have trouble reading social cues, or that you might have Asperger's Syndrome?

Yes, I have been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome.


well whats wrong with the women old enough to be your mother? :p

They're married and have kids older than I am.

well:
1) you are going to need to make friends with a woman at some point especially a girlfriends friends who have the ability to crush you

2) being friends with a girl will give you some experience in the affairs of the female

Yeah, I thought so too, but it hasn't done me much good yet

3) relationships at 17 (and any age really) always start out as just some fun, if your going around left, right and up talking about marriage and such you will just look like your out to carve your name into peoples heads when there sleeping

I've got news for you; I'm 30 years old, not 17

4) a girl can help you much more with this than any internet forum

Yeah I know that, but no girl is WILLING to help me with that; every time I ask, they're like "EWWWWW! GET AWAY FROM ME!"

They would rather condemn or ostracize me for not knowing what to do, instead of trying to help me.

7) Learn to laugh at yourself, cuz it'll all be hilarious in 10 years

I was in this same predicament 10 years ago, and it is no more funny now than it was then; in fact it is MUCH LESS funny

Alright, Port Arcana, I'm in nearly the same boat you are in. Nearly 18, just graduated High School, single and, while not completely nervous around girls, I have found it incredibly hard to tell anyone of them who I've liked that I actually like them. Above average grades and more polite than most of the people at my former school.

Now, I guess my opinions on this really changed this past year, because before this past year, I was a complete wreck around women I liked. Not all of them, but the few I had a thing for I couldn't even speak to them. But the spring of my junior year I met a girl in my math class, started talking a bit, both liked the same New York Yankees baseball team, and we had an OK friendship. Wasn't someone who had boys oogaling around her, but alright. I sort of liked her then, but wasn't completely sure. Turns out that our senior year, she decided to join our school's radio station, which I am still a big part of. So midway through the year, we need someone to do fill in for a broadcast of a basketball game, and her, liking sports, decided to give it a shot. So for the next couple of months we did ended up doing a few sports games together. I started being less and less nervous around her, because it's I always think of it as business as usual, although the first one was a bit odd to do. I'm like "I really like you, and I'm talking to you, but it'd be a little odd if I said I liked you on air". Eventually, after much pressure from my friends who knew that I wanted to ask her out, I decided to. So that night and went on instant messenger (I couldn't even say it in front of her) and told her I liked her. It turned out that she was going out with someone else, but in a completely bizzare turn of events, because of the insanity of my friends she actually heard them trying to get me to talk to her. She was sorry that she disappointed me, but I wasn't terribly disappointed. In the end, I know have a new running joke that I can use at my radio station, and that certainly brings a smile to my face.

But the way I look at it: I'm seventeen, going off to college a month and a half for now, and I have a car and a job for the first time. It's almost like I'm starting over. And a boyfriend or girlfriend in high school is not something to care so much about. It'd be great to have one, but it's not catastrophic if you don't. Although I do find this odd: I have no problem speaking publicly, speaking on radio, or even talking with girls who I have no attraction to, but when I try to talk to one girl I want to ask out, it's the hardest thing to do. But if I can improve on it, I'm sure that you can.

But don't worry about talking to girls. The one you might go out with could start out as just someone you talk to because you like (or dislike) the same thing. You could not even find her incredibly attractive at first and then realize that she is cute, and yet if you've talked to her for a while, still treat it like she's your friend and ask to do something. But the thing is, even if she says no, do not overreact. Don't try to change or anything crazy. You're seventeen, it's high school. Things, so I hear, change a lot when you get into college. None (or fewer) of these high school cliques (which luckily were nearly non-existent in my school) or "I have to be with the "cool" people". Just find the right one.

Oh, and pressure is nothing. The absolute worst thing can happen is she say no. She won't kill, or slap you (unless you be a jerk) and usually they end up being your friend anyways.

Changing Mottos, I think this will be relatively helpful to you. :)

I read it a few months ago, practiced a few times and it became second nature. Now if only I could fake some confidence while doing it... :D

http://www.bbc.co.uk/relationships/singles_and_dating/techniques_flirting.shtml

I don't know how to fake ANYTHING; whatever I'm feeling on the inside ALWAYS makes its way outside, no matter how hard I try to keep in. At least 90% of the time.

I think this will be relatively helpful to you

It is actually discouraging, because it says "Fifty-five per cent of the impression we get from someone comes through our body language", and I am totally dense when it comes to body language, at least my own; I have no idea what message I'm sending with my body language or how to control it.

Also, it says, "Before you've even spoken to the person you've got your eye on, the way you've walked and stood is more than 80 per cent of their first impression of you!" I don't know how to control that; I never think about how I walk or stand, so I don't know if it's attractive or not.

Just thinking about all this is depressing me.

(*starts weeping profusely and contemplating suicide*)

Alright, Port Arcana, I'm in nearly the same boat you are in. Nearly 18, just graduated High School, single and, while not completely nervous around girls, I have found it incredibly hard to tell anyone of them who I've liked that I actually like them. Above average grades and more polite than most of the people at my former school.

Now, I guess my opinions on this really changed this past year, because before this past year, I was a complete wreck around women I liked. Not all of them, but the few I had a thing for I couldn't even speak to them. But the spring of my junior year I met a girl in my math class, started talking a bit, both liked the same New York Yankees baseball team, and we had an OK friendship. Wasn't someone who had boys oogaling around her, but alright. I sort of liked her then, but wasn't completely sure. Turns out that our senior year, she decided to join our school's radio station, which I am still a big part of. So midway through the year, we need someone to do fill in for a broadcast of a basketball game, and her, liking sports, decided to give it a shot. So for the next couple of months we did ended up doing a few sports games together. I started being less and less nervous around her, because it's I always think of it as business as usual, although the first one was a bit odd to do. I'm like "I really like you, and I'm talking to you, but it'd be a little odd if I said I liked you on air". Eventually, after much pressure from my friends who knew that I wanted to ask her out, I decided to. So that night and went on instant messenger (I couldn't even say it in front of her) and told her I liked her. It turned out that she was going out with someone else, but in a completely bizzare turn of events, because of the insanity of my friends she actually heard them trying to get me to talk to her. She was sorry that she disappointed me, but I wasn't terribly disappointed. In the end, I know have a new running joke that I can use at my radio station, and that certainly brings a smile to my face.

But the way I look at it: I'm seventeen, going off to college a month and a half for now, and I have a car and a job for the first time. It's almost like I'm starting over. And a boyfriend or girlfriend in high school is not something to care so much about. It'd be great to have one, but it's not catastrophic if you don't. Although I do find this odd: I have no problem speaking publicly, speaking on radio, or even talking with girls who I have no attraction to, but when I try to talk to one girl I want to ask out, it's the hardest thing to do. But if I can improve on it, I'm sure that you can.

But don't worry about talking to girls. The one you might go out with could start out as just someone you talk to because you like (or dislike) the same thing. You could not even find her incredibly attractive at first and then realize that she is cute, and yet if you've talked to her for a while, still treat it like she's your friend and ask to do something. But the thing is, even if she says no, do not overreact. Don't try to change or anything crazy. You're seventeen, it's high school. Things, so I hear, change a lot when you get into college. None (or fewer) of these high school cliques (which luckily were nearly non-existent in my school) or "I have to be with the "cool" people". Just find the right one.

Oh, and pressure is nothing. The absolute worst thing can happen is she say no. She won't kill, or slap you (unless you be a jerk) and usually they end up being your friend anyways.

I was smiling halfway through your post until I read the part that she was already taken. Such an unexpected twist. I'm sorry. :(

But yeah, I think sometimes the fear of rejection is a bigger issue than rejection itself.

Oh, and pressure is nothing. The absolute worst thing can happen is she say no. She won't kill, or slap you (unless you be a jerk) and usually they end up being your friend anyways.

Speak it, jive turkey!

I don't know how to fake ANYTHING; whatever I'm feeling on the inside ALWAYS makes its way outside, no matter how hard I try to keep in. At least 90% of the time.

No no no, one step at a time my friend. At least know the cues so you'll know when they're interested. Who knows, perhaps you'll go through the article and think to yourself "hey, I see this every day!"

Well, that's just fantastic. I hope to somebody's god that you don't honestly believe that.

You speak as if women are another species.

I heard that men and women have a 2/3 genetic similarity. Supposedly, we have a 98% genetic similarity to the chimpanzee, so... :p

I heard that men and women have a 2/3 genetic similarity. Supposedly, we have a 98% genetic similarity to the chimpanzee, so... :p

Heard?

Yes, I have been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome.


I heard that was a scam, or at least way, way over-diagnosed for money purposes. Just saying. :(

I heard that was a scam, or at least way, way over-diagnosed for money purposes. Just saying. :(

I heard that you've been hearing a lot of sketchy things lately.

Just saying. :p

Heard?

Yeah. In biology class, I believe. That was long ago now. :p So don't quote me on it, but I think it's true.

See where I'm going with this?

No. :confused::(

I heard that you've been hearing a lot of sketchy things lately.

Just saying. :p

Eh. I'm lazy. :p If anyone has the energy to hit up the google and the search-engine and all that stuff, they can verify. ;)

I heard that was a scam, or at least way, way over-diagnosed for money purposes. Just saying. :(

It's caused by lack of booze. And smoking.

No no no, one step at a time my friend. At least know the cues so you'll know when they're interested. Who knows, perhaps you'll go through the article and think to yourself "hey, I see this every day!"

That's just it; I DON'T know the cues, and instead of telling me what they are, people say I should "know them". Will somebody please tell me what the $%&@! these "cues" ARE?

Eh. I'm lazy. :p If anyone has the energy to hit up the google and the search-engine and all that stuff, they can verify. ;)

And they most certainly can, because I know that I'm not going to bother. :D

That's just it; I DON'T know the cues. Will somebody please tell me what the $%&@! these "cues" ARE?

I posted the link two pages ago!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/relationships/singles_and_dating/techniques_flirting.shtml

:P

That's just it; I DON'T know the cues. Will somebody please tell me what the $%&@! these "cues" ARE?

I think winking's a big part of it. :p Keep an eye out for that.

It's caused by lack of booze. And smoking.

I believe it. :p

That's just it; I DON'T know the cues. Will somebody please tell me what the $%&@! these "cues" ARE?

Talking to you - it means they have an interest in you, on whatever level that may be - it might not be romantic, it might be out of boredom, but it's a start.

I think winking's a big part of it. :p Keep an eye out for that.

One of the cashiers at my workplace (I'm almost two years older than her) winked at me when I was looking in her general direction two weeks ago.

Maybe she thought I was looking at her, but even so, why the wink? She's already deeply (you know what I mean by that) involved with somebody else. Was it friendly? Was it more than that? Was it meaningless, or was it something else entirely?

Whatever the case, I made no gestures in return, and not a word was spoken about it after. I guess sometimes, you just never know... And in this case, I really didn't want to know.

I heard that was a scam, or at least way, way over-diagnosed for money purposes. Just saying. :(

Asperger's is a very real condition. Look it up if you don't know what it is. I'd call you an idiot, but maybe you're just uninformed. Just saying.

Changing Mottos: The easiest way to confront a female is to confront them as a male. Kind of a strange idea (and it's easy for me to say because I have Associative Agnosia...I can't tell forks from spoons, let alone men from women.) All you have to remember is that A) They're probably nervous, too, B) All you have to do is talk in a clear, non-hyperventilating voice (even if you are on the inside. Just take a breath and try to slow down a little.) C) The easiest way to strike up a conversation is to pick something neutral (for lack of a better word...not auto mechanics [unless she's wearing motor-oil covered overalls] or sports [unless she's wearing a jersey] and on the flip side, not fashion or makeup [do not draw attention to what she's wearing{unless it has a cool logo on it} or how her makeup looks. It's a long, downhill drive from there.] Also, wait for replies. Start her talking about something and listen. Women love explaining things that they like (just like guys do. We all like superiority.)

...the parentheses...they haunt me...

Anyway, it's a lot easier done than said once you realize that this person, for all intents and purposes, does, listens to, likes and knows SOMETHING. Just hit on one of those and you're good to go.

When I started not giving a crap is truly when I could talk to girls. I truly decided that I could careless if a girl didn't like what I said or did. It turned out that not long after I fully didn't care is when I actually started dating on a regular basis.

Asperger's is a very real condition. Look it up if you don't know what it is. I'd call you an idiot, but maybe you're just uninformed. Just saying.

I'm sure it is. It's just the number of people who think they have it who actually don't - *that* is the scam. :p There's big money in psychiatry, remember. ;)

One of the cashiers at my workplace (I'm almost two years older than her) winked at me when I was looking in her general direction two weeks ago.

Maybe she thought I was looking at her, but even so, why the wink? She's already deeply (you know what I mean by that) involved with somebody else. Was it friendly? Was it more than that? Was it meaningless, or was it something else entirely?

Whatever the case, I made no gestures in return, and not a word was spoken about it after. I guess sometimes, you just never know... And in this case, I really didn't want to know.

Well, it's not a sure-fire method, but winking's usually a reliable hint. :p

A big, dopey waving gesture might've been a good response. Humor tends to bring out the truth.

Port Arcana, I am myself 18 and I am in the same boat, I never had a girlfriend (mostly through choice though; they tend to be expensive and anyways, my chances of getting a decent girlfriend are about the same as me travelling on an electric train tommorrow - 0).

I personally think that you will get past the nervousness phase. I used to rarely be comfortable talking to people that I did not know in general, however, since the beginning of this year, and since I have been going to university, I have certainly become more comfortable with talking to random people and I have even gotten to know a couple of people. Alright, maybe not all of them are hot chicks, but that is a start.

Also, at this stage, I would not look at your situation as seeking a girlfriend, but more get to know females; I would ignore having to know the social cues for flirting and so on - that I believe is half your problem, you are trying to remember how to do everything right and that is making you nervous. The best way to reduce your nervousness is talk about things you are familiar with that are in the background; if you talk about things that you know and are familiar with, then the nervousness tends to be reduced somewhat (I certainly do that). Once you have gotten used to talking to females, then you can go to the next stage and seek a girlfriend.

Finally, I do not think that you have a biological disease, it is just something that you are not used to. I know a person that gets nervous when he travels overseas because he wants to make sure that he does everything correctly at the airport; he only travels annually for the record. Once you get used to talking to hot females, then your nervousness will disappear.

Now to some of the other points

*sits back and awaits suggestions.*

yeah... me too Port Arcana, me too.

*hoists flag and sits*

False.

Generally chicks are looking for the hottest guy they can get. Unfortunately, intelligence is generally not a determinant of hotness, and hotness is determined more by factors such as the amount of weight that you can bench. Of course, I do not think that this is too much of a problem with Port Arcana

I wish somebody would lend a sympathetic...no, make that empathetic ear and try to help me instead of just looking at me like I'm crazy or something

*looks at Changing Mottos as if he is crazy*

Plan A
1) Send in an emissary to establish diplomatic relations.

2) Make a debut public appearance yourself. Don't tent your fingers or cackle with insane glee.

3) Monitor over time... see if the resources she has are what you're looking for. Guage whether you have resources to establish mutually beneficial trade.

4) Be sure not to ignore her allies. Their view can make or break you. Prison strategy of picking the biggest and taking her out for respect won't work.

5) Get her hooked, somewhat dependent or at least interested in your resources.

6) At an opportune moment, isolate her from her allies.

7) Annex.

Absolutely brilliant! *makes mental note

Turn your brain off. Completely.

Attempt to think as little as possible.

Then consider your feelings.

Describe all your feelings about anything, no matter how stupid in a notebook.

Remember: NO THINKING. ONLY FEELING.

Buy a couple new pairs of shoes.

Get a haircut more than once a week.

*looks at Changing Mottos as if he is crazy*

(*kills self*)

That's why I said usually. If you're looking for an intelligent women than by all means display your vast intellect. The majority of women won't, however, be interested in your ACT score. Smelling good is a must.

I know several dumb women who admire my intelligence. Whether they want to sleep with me is irrelevant though, as, I could care less for them.

I posted the link two pages ago!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/relationships/singles_and_dating/techniques_flirting.shtml

:P

Oh, THOSE cues! (*hits hand on forehead*)

Thanks for all your help, all of you. I will try to keep in mind the things you have told me, and I appreciate your help.

Now, if you'll excuse me, it's after midnight in my corner of the world, and I have to get up in the morning. Good night to all of you (or good morning if that's the time of day where YOU are).

The real trick is staying in a nice middle ground between over confident jerk and overly shy virgin for life, who squeaks when they try to say something. Women like a man to be confident, just not a complete asshole.

Most important things to remember. Don't look at the other girls. I don't care if the shortest miniskirt in the Western World just scampered by in stiletto heels, focus on the gal you're with. They're not with you so you can give every girl you see the I'd rather be with that eyes. If you're talking with a woman with a great body, look them in the eyes when you talk with them. A quick look over is flattering but don't go to creepy, leering mode or it's over.

Ask her questions about herself and follow up with more question. Woman generally like a guy who can listen and aren't usually turned on by guys bragging about how cool they are, although if you are pretty cool some hints about stuff you're doing without making a big deal about it aren't a bad idea. That's I'm going sky diving this weekend cool not I reached the highest level in a video game cool, unless she's a serious gamer herself. Don’t lie to impress her. If it works out you’re royally screwed and she’ll never be able to trust you again. If you don't completely blow it, follow up on these questions and learn more about her interests so you can talk to her.

If you blow it, take your lumps and move on. There are more ladies on this planet than you could possibly meet, so don't waste your time on one not interested in you, no matter how hot you think she is. It's self destructive at best. At worst you'll blow the chance to meet someone who is interested in you. You should be able to tell in a few minutes talking to a woman if she's interested or not, without even making a move. Sometimes you can spend a weekend with someone only to find out they're getting married in a week, to someone else. Stuff happens. Sometimes some very strange stuff. It's not always bad either.

When I started not giving a crap is truly when I could talk to girls. I truly decided that I could careless if a girl didn't like what I said or did. It turned out that not long after I fully didn't care is when I actually started dating on a regular basis.

Yeah - having nothing to lose helps. It's true for most of us, really, but it's easy to get caught up in the social scene and politics and forget that fact. :p

Background story: I’m a 17 year old “eligible bachelor” without any previous adolescent relationships because I’m really shy around women.

There's your thing. Get into a relationship, get down, and then after that you won't be nervous, just bored and/or cynical like me.

I'm never nervous around women nowadays.

It's the men that bug me. I can always tell they want to play social ladder games with me, establish dominance or whatever. I hate that shit. I don't need it. Luckily at school all I do is hang out with a bunch of girls.

I get really nervous occasionally when I’m meeting women. I’ve done all sorts of mental exercises to calm myself down, but for some reason I always get this “deer in the headlights” feeling whenever I’m talking to an attractive female. Even though I’m in the odd counterculture group at school, I still have a good number of attractive female friends that I often talk to and hang out with. But despite what I tell myself (for instance “no matter how stunningly beautiful a woman is, she's still a human being with basic human needs, stop assuming things, assumption is the basis of all mistakes in life, just be yourself, you’re not ugly, stupid nor antisocial so just relax and calm down”) I always get really tense and it makes me feel uncomfortable. I know exactly what to say, and I know the social cues for flirting as well (ex: eye contact, mirror movement, empathetic emotions, friendly gestures, etc) but it’s like no matter how much I practice talking to women and just random people in general, I can never get past the shyness or nervousness on occasions.

Occasions? Well, there are always occasions. Not everyone is comfortable at all times in every situation. That's normal, unless you're drunk or truly don't give a shit.

But you might be thinking too much. It's good not to go on instinct alone, but at the same time the fact that you write this huge post about this might indicate over-thinking. That'll always trip you up, it's like cramming too much for an exam.

During the last couple of days, I’ve also tried to practice talking to everyone that I meet so I wouldn’t feel so nervous when I’m talking to women. I work at the hospital so there’s plenty of opportunities for that, I’d always try to smile and say hi to doctors, professors, students, nurses, janitors, patients, etc and find every chance I get to interact with people and start conversations in the elevators, cafeterias, laboratories, etc. But whenever I see an attractive college girl walking by or in the elevators, I can say hi, smile, nod and perhaps engage in a brief friendly conversation but it feels like I’m standing in front of a train. I get so self conscious about everything and start thinking to myself “am I smiling naturally? Am I saying the right things?” when it doesn’t matter at all.

Self consciousness. A common problem. It's hard not to be conscious of your big dumb self. (No offense intended of course. Everyone's self is, in the end, big and dumb.)

Most efficient way to get over it is crash and burn. Don't try thinking of the *right* things to say or be polite. Go out there, find one girl after the other, and lay it on thick. Expect - nay, welcome - nay, go out with the intent of! her rejecting you, slapping you, rolling her eyes, walking off in a huff.

Once you get used to that you won't be so self-conscious, cuz you'll know what the risks are and be used to them. Acclimatization. Also, in finding the wrong things to say, you might be surprised at just how few things are really "wrong" to say.


Today, I tried so hard (perhaps a bit too hard) to interact with random people that I ended up getting nervous around everyone by the end of the day. Then I got home and realised that a girl from my school (whom I’ve found quite attractive) left me a message asking me to go see the new Harry potter movie with her. I was so nervous and exhausted from “practicing” my social skills that I politely declined. I didn’t want to risk having a nervous breakdown. Illogical much?

Harry Potter movies suck.

Seriously, I'd rather read the books.

With a girl.

Naked.

Plus ice cream.


Is there a biological disease that makes people nervous around women? I know there’s a quasi-medical term called caligynephobia but that’s mostly a scam by companies trying to sell “dating for dummies books”.

Thanks for your time.

No, no, you're not diseased or abnormal. Just take my advice, I've been there so I know what it's like.

If just getting over the nervousness is your gaol, I find that not giving a fuck works pretty well. It's not gonna get you laid (but in my case that wasn't going to happen anyway) but its kind of centering or Zen or some shit like that.

Being happy with yourself, being content to speak your mind and and being comfortable enough to show that self whenever you want and not constantly worrying about what other people, especially gals, think of you, is liberating. Society seems to try to tell us that you can't be truly happy unless you're sharing happiness romantically with someone else. That's bullshit.

I'm reminded of an episode of the show Moral Oral (primarily a hilariously offensive clay-amation parody of fundamental Christianity, but it occasionally deals with other stuff.) To paraphrase:

Lots of things that make people happy start with F. Friends, Family, Faith... Hmm, are there any more words that start with F that make people happy? Anyway, lots of people have one or some of these things, but they aren't happy because they want them all. I think those people are ungrateful. You should enjoy the F's you have, not spend all your time worrying about the ones you don't.

although if you are pretty cool some hints about stuff you're doing without making a big deal about it aren't a bad idea. That's I'm going sky diving this weekend cool not I reached the highest level in a video game cool, unless she's a serious gamer herself.

See? That's the kind of bullshit I'm talking about. Don't talk about video games sunless she's a serious gamer but talk about sky-diving even if she's never sky dived in her whole life? It's that kind of appeal to the lowest common denominator that makes social success so utterly disgusting.

That’s not the lowest common denominator. Walking around a club, accidentally dropping your Porsche keys and announcing it loudly, is appealing to the lowest common denominator.

When it comes to dating, not even gamer girls want to hear your gamer war stories. Really you’re gamer friends don’t really want to hear them either. They’re just being polite so later you’ll listen to theirs. Let’s face it, as passion killers go, it’s usually just one step away from the brown pokadot jumpsuit, with glowing suspenders.

When you’re dating someone it’s like interviewing for a job or running for office. You don’t want to say things that will be taken out of context, until they can first apply what they know about you to that context. You want to put your best foot forward and not get it slammed in the door. If she likes what she sees, you can let her know about the gaming thing later. When you’re dating a non-gamer, it’s slightly better to be a serious gamer than a heroine addict, but don’t hold it over the heroine addicts. They really get tired of it and they’re often armed with pointy needles.

When you do tell a lady that you’re a gamer, you casually mention you’re having a game night with some old friends. You don’t bring out your Players Handbook and try to get her to fill that empty spot at the table, from someone moving on. When you’re trying to connect with someone, it’s best not to do everything possible to disconnect with them by throwing things in their face they don’t have any experience with and aren’t going to react well to. After she’s known you a while and thinks you’re an all right guy, then she’s going to be more accepting of you being a gamer, you know until you’re firing up a console game on the couch next to her and ignoring her all evening.

See? That's the kind of bullshit I'm talking about. Don't talk about video games sunless she's a serious gamer but talk about sky-diving even if she's never sky dived in her whole life? It's that kind of appeal to the lowest common denominator that makes social success so utterly disgusting.

Aren't the odds kind of against her being a big gamer, though? :p Not that I would know, of course, but the online gaming world is pretty much about the male, 14-20 group, isn't it?

That’s not the lowest common denominator. Walking around a club, accidentally dropping your Porsche keys and announcing it loudly, is appealing to the lowest common denominator.

When it comes to dating, not even gamer girls want to hear your gamer war stories. Really you’re gamer friends don’t really want to hear them either. They’re just being polite so later you’ll listen to theirs. Let’s face it, as passion killers go, it’s usually just one step away from the brown pokadot jumpsuit, with glowing suspenders.

When you’re dating someone it’s like interviewing for a job or running for office. You don’t want to say things that will be taken out of context, until they can first apply what they know about you to that context. You want to put your best foot forward and not get it slammed in the door. If she likes what she sees, you can let her know about the gaming thing later. When you’re dating a non-gamer, it’s slightly better to be a serious gamer than a heroine addict, but don’t hold it over the heroine addicts. They really get tired of it and they’re often armed with pointy needles.
And it is appealing to the lowest common denominator because you're assuming the chick is shallow enough to assume that all people who play video games are losers.
By the way, my friends and I tell each other our video game "war stories" all the time and we enjoy the shit out of it.

When you do tell a lady that you’re a gamer, you casually mention you’re having a game night with some old friends. You don’t bring out your Players Handbook and try to get her to fill that empty spot at the table, from someone moving on. When you’re trying to connect with someone, it’s best not to do everything possible to disconnect with them by throwing things in their face they don’t have any experience with and aren’t going to react well to. After she’s known you a while and thinks you’re an all right guy, then she’s going to be more accepting of you being a gamer, you know until you’re firing up a console game on the couch next to her and ignoring her all evening.

Talking about video games all the time and making references to Star Wars and Lord of the Rings is part of who I am, and I refuse to temporally hide or compromise that for anybody, and I think anybody that would do something such as that is, on some level, quite pathetic.

And it is appealing to the lowest common denominator because you're assuming the chick is shallow enough to think all dudes that play video games are losers.

And my friends and I swap video game "war stories" all the time, and we enjoy the shit out of it.

Talking about video games all the time and making references to Star Wars and Lord of the Rings is part of who I am, and I refuse to temporally hide or compromise that for anybody, and I think anybody that would do something such as that is, on some level, quite pathetic.

And it is appealing to the lowest common denominator because you're assuming the chick is shallow enough to think all dudes that play video games are losers.

And my friends and I swap video game "war stories" all the time, and we enjoy the shit out of it.

Amen.

Talking about video games all the time and making references to Star Wars and Lord of the Rings is part of who I am, and I refuse to temporally hide or compromise that for anybody, and I think anybody that would do something such as that is, on some level, quite pathetic.

And it is appealing to the lowest common denominator because you're assuming the chick is shallow enough to think all dudes that play video games are losers.

And my friends and I swap video game "war stories" all the time, and we enjoy the shit out of it.

This talk about girls not looking for intelligence or being turned off by video game stories or geeky nerd jargon isn't true at all. At least not for me.

Here's my example.
I may be the only female alive who has ever felt like this but whatever:

Last week, my boyfriend and I went to see the premiere of Transformers. I've never watched any Transformers show in my life and I don't know a thing about it. I only saw it so that I could spend time with him and he was just so excited to go and see it. So then midway through the movie, he turned to me and started talking about all these geeky Transformers facts, subtle pop-culture references, and the U.S. government. I didn't really follow because of how excited he was, but I really found it a turn on. I gave him a kiss for it. I find in his outburst of knowledge, he was just so cute and confident at the same time. He knows I don't care about the stuff he said, but that doesn't mean I'm not impressed.

Vodka helps.
a lot.

It makes you witty, handsome, erudite, knowledgeable on every subject under the sun AND gives you the confidence to display your ample knowledge at great lengths and great volume.
It also has the added positive effect of making every woman you talk to look like a page 3 stunner.

Helps if she imbibes the same amount as you.

Start smoking. All cool people smoke. I learned that from hollywood.

Wrong! All the cool people are emo!

*Runs off to cut self whilst making crappy poetry*

:)
It may sound a bit strange, but I 'm MORE at ease around women, and the prettier the better somehow. I've never felt quite comfortable with men's talk and machismo.
(Btw: I'm male, hetero and married to a beautiful lady.)

Well women (usually) are never interested in how smart a guy is so throw that assumption out the window.

That actually made me log in just to say WTF? In which wacko world do you live? Do you honestly think we'd want to date stupid guys?

That actually made me log in just to say WTF? In which wacko world do you live? Do you honestly think we'd want to date stupid guys?

People seem to think that smarts can out-do personality, sense of humour, etc in a choice of partner. They don't seem to realise that smarts are only a part of it.

Well women (usually) are never interested in how smart a guy is so throw that assumption out the window.

Crosses Cook off list of possible guys to ask out. ;)

I have an odd issue and was wondering if the good people of NS forums can help me out. I'm occasionally nervous around women but don't know why. This might be a bit of a read but I’ll try to condense much of it as possible.

Background story: I’m a 17 year old “eligible bachelor” without any previous adolescent relationships because I’m really shy around women. I used to be quite alright with women when I was little, I had several “girlfriends” in elementary and middle school back when I didn’t even like girls. But as I started to like females when puberty kicked in, I started getting really nervous around women. For the last 4-5 years from 7th to 11th grade, there have been many instances where a girl and I have liked each other, but I never had the cojones to ask any of them out and thus nothing happened.

Last October I got really fed up with it so I started reading up on lots and lots of different psychology, sociology and dating articles so I could overcome my problem. I also started working out every single day so I can feel better about myself physically.

I made the assumption that women would be judging men on three factors, physical looks, intelligence, and social skills.

Physically, I’m 5’10 or 175 cm, which is the exact 50% percentile for male height in both the states and england. My weight went down from 168 to 147 lbs since I started working out and eating healthier, and my upper body is relatively toned and thin. (Not muscular though. Kind of like a skater, tennis player or track runner body type) As for facial features, I think I’m relatively attractive (or at least not ugly) because usually I can make a pretty positive first impression. I dress in a mix of indie-ish clothing and vintage victorian so that might be a bit odd in America but there’s quite a bit of people in the counterculture so I think that’s not too much of a problem.

Intellectually I think I’m alright there as well. I can make pretty good marks while taking AP (college levelled) courses in high school. According to the education system here I’m classified as “gifted”, and I am also currently doing cardiovascular research at our local hospital over the summer.

Socially I think I’ve improved a lot in the past school year. My biggest achievement so far is getting past my bias of high school cliques. I’ve learned not to judge people by appearance and I can get along well with just about everyone in school regardless of clique or parental income (our school has a bit of a rich kid/poor kid divide). According to my friends I have good social skills, I try to respect everyone and I usually do my best to treat others with kindness. I know quite a bit of people too and was able to get 49.6 % of the votes during our school’s class rep elections (apparently there’s a huge conspiracy theory going around about how a certain admin in our school didn’t want a left-winged, middle-class, counterculture, minority, pagan as president so they fixed the elections but that’s long story).

Oh yeah, almost got off track sorry. Here’s the problem.

I get really nervous occasionally when I’m meeting women. I’ve done all sorts of mental exercises to calm myself down, but for some reason I always get this “deer in the headlights” feeling whenever I’m talking to an attractive female. Even though I’m in the odd counterculture group at school, I still have a good number of attractive female friends that I often talk to and hang out with. But despite what I tell myself (for instance “no matter how stunningly beautiful a woman is, she's still a human being with basic human needs, stop assuming things, assumption is the basis of all mistakes in life, just be yourself, you’re not ugly, stupid nor antisocial so just relax and calm down”) I always get really tense and it makes me feel uncomfortable. I know exactly what to say, and I know the social cues for flirting as well (ex: eye contact, mirror movement, empathetic emotions, friendly gestures, etc) but it’s like no matter how much I practice talking to women and just random people in general, I can never get past the shyness or nervousness on occasions.

Well, there was one time where I got a lot of sleep and woke up and felt great, and I went to renew my driver’s permit and my proctor was this really attractive blonde lady and I tried my best to relax and attempted to flirt with her, and by some odd miracle, despite failing the vision test horribly, she let me pass and smiled and said “have a nice day, sweetie!”. I felt completely shocked and euphoric but the feeling soon passed and I went back to my occasional nervous self.

During the last couple of days, I’ve also tried to practice talking to everyone that I meet so I wouldn’t feel so nervous when I’m talking to women. I work at the hospital so there’s plenty of opportunities for that, I’d always try to smile and say hi to doctors, professors, students, nurses, janitors, patients, etc and find every chance I get to interact with people and start conversations in the elevators, cafeterias, laboratories, etc. But whenever I see an attractive college girl walking by or in the elevators, I can say hi, smile, nod and perhaps engage in a brief friendly conversation but it feels like I’m standing in front of a train. I get so self conscious about everything and start thinking to myself “am I smiling naturally? Am I saying the right things?” when it doesn’t matter at all.

Today, I tried so hard (perhaps a bit too hard) to interact with random people that I ended up getting nervous around everyone by the end of the day. Then I got home and realised that a girl from my school (whom I’ve found quite attractive) left me a message asking me to go see the new Harry potter movie with her. I was so nervous and exhausted from “practicing” my social skills that I politely declined. I didn’t want to risk having a nervous breakdown. Illogical much?

Oh, I've also never formally asked a girl out before. It took me a year before I had the courage to tell a girl that I liked her in 7th grade, she said that made her really happy, but unfortunately it was also my last day at that school before I moved away.

Is there a biological disease that makes people nervous around women? I know there’s a quasi-medical term called caligynephobia but that’s mostly a scam by companies trying to sell “dating for dummies books”.

Thanks for your time.

And the moral of this story is: A good night's sleep will get you laid.

Seriously, the girls are just as nervous about this stuff as you are. If I were you, I'd take your would-be harry potter date's tack: Just ask.

If it is such a misconception, then they've got ME fooled, because in my experience they always act cool and calm, like they don't have to think about what they say or do, like they were (for lack of a better way of saying it) BORN with complete knowledge of what to do/say in any and every social situation (which is exactly the opposite of how I feel, and I don't know how to hide it), even to the point of making me even more uncomfortable.

You SO don't know me. If you looked in the dictionary for "wallflower" about ten years ago, there was my picture, name and address with the cross reference, "See Kat." :D

Seriously. When you stop worrying about the "right things" to do while talking to someone of the opposite gender and get more comfortable, you project confidence. People like someone who is secure in who they are. (And yes, hygiene.)

When I stopped worrying about finding a boyfriend and just decided to have fun, chat with people, and not build any expectations into any particular encounter, that's when it seemed like guys started coming out of the woodwork for me.

You need to actually associate with females who you aren't trying to screw. Once you fully internalize the fact that women are people just like men, you will feel no more anxiety around them than you do around guys.

That's just it; I DON'T know the cues, and instead of telling me what they are, people say I should "know them". Will somebody please tell me what the $%&@! these "cues" ARE?

Direct eye contact.
If she stands closer to you in the course of speaking with her (and not because you're on a crowded bus).
Physical contact (if she brushes your arm or shoulder with her hand over the course of the conversation.)
If she's not trying to break off the conversation and leave (not making eye contact, standing with her body facing away from you).

Port Arcana, I am myself 18 and I am in the same boat, I never had a girlfriend...

Generally chicks are looking for the hottest guy they can get. Unfortunately, intelligence is generally not a determinant of hotness, and hotness is determined more by factors such as the amount of weight that you can bench.

LOL so if you never had a girlfriend, how do you know what they're looking for?:D

You need to actually associate with females who you aren't trying to screw. Once you fully internalize the fact that women are people just like men, you will feel no more anxiety around them than you do around guys.

Ahhh cept that aint strictly true, they are not 'just like men' they have them lovely boobbie things, and thats just for starter!;)

:)
It may sound a bit strange, but I 'm MORE at ease around women, and the prettier the better somehow. I've never felt quite comfortable with men's talk and machismo.
(Btw: I'm male, hetero and married to a beautiful lady.)

The last part might be the reason, though, right? :p

I can't really give much advice as I have many of the same problems, but:

Try not to analyse everything. Act on your feelings. Avoid becoming limerent. Others are likely to be just as nervous as you, and want a relationship just as much.

You will have to deal with it, and through trial and error, figure out what works and what doesnt.

Everyone makes mistakes. Better make them when you´re young, and not as you get older.

Anyway, if you´re good looking, and make a first impression, that is 50% of the work in making people like you.

Generally chicks are looking for the hottest guy they can get. Unfortunately, intelligence is generally not a determinant of hotness, and hotness is determined more by factors such as the amount of weight that you can bench. Of course, I do not think that this is too much of a problem with Port Arcana

Women are attracted to all sorts of different things. I've dated girls that were attracted to me due to (among other things)

the "man in uniform" thing (I was in the Army)
me being intelligent
me being good with kids
me being tall
me playing Warhammer and being confident enough to admit to it
my speaking French
the fact that I own several plush Cthulhus (she said it was "endearing" that I had childlike side to me)

Many of these are not things that I guy would think a woman would find attractive. Every woman is after something different, and the key is finding one that likes you for who you are.

Also, after a while you'll figure out that women are just as nervous as you about dating. Once you learn that women are a lot more like men than "conventional wisdom" suggests, you'll do a lot better.

I'm occasionally nervous around women but don't know why.

I’m a 17 year old “eligible bachelor” There's why. ;)

I have an odd issue and was wondering if the good people of NS forums can help me out. I'm occasionally nervous around women but don't know why. This might be a bit of a read but I’ll try to condense much of it as possible.

Background story: I’m a 17 year old “eligible bachelor” without any previous adolescent relationships because I’m really shy around women. I used to be quite alright with women when I was little, I had several “girlfriends” in elementary and middle school back when I didn’t even like girls. But as I started to like females when puberty kicked in, I started getting really nervous around women. For the last 4-5 years from 7th to 11th grade, there have been many instances where a girl and I have liked each other, but I never had the cojones to ask any of them out and thus nothing happened.

Last October I got really fed up with it so I started reading up on lots and lots of different psychology, sociology and dating articles so I could overcome my problem. I also started working out every single day so I can feel better about myself physically.

I made the assumption that women would be judging men on three factors, physical looks, intelligence, and social skills.

Physically, I’m 5’10 or 175 cm, which is the exact 50% percentile for male height in both the states and england. My weight went down from 168 to 147 lbs since I started working out and eating healthier, and my upper body is relatively toned and thin. (Not muscular though. Kind of like a skater, tennis player or track runner body type) As for facial features, I think I’m relatively attractive (or at least not ugly) because usually I can make a pretty positive first impression. I dress in a mix of indie-ish clothing and vintage victorian so that might be a bit odd in America but there’s quite a bit of people in the counterculture so I think that’s not too much of a problem.

Intellectually I think I’m alright there as well. I can make pretty good marks while taking AP (college levelled) courses in high school. According to the education system here I’m classified as “gifted”, and I am also currently doing cardiovascular research at our local hospital over the summer.

Socially I think I’ve improved a lot in the past school year. My biggest achievement so far is getting past my bias of high school cliques. I’ve learned not to judge people by appearance and I can get along well with just about everyone in school regardless of clique or parental income (our school has a bit of a rich kid/poor kid divide). According to my friends I have good social skills, I try to respect everyone and I usually do my best to treat others with kindness. I know quite a bit of people too and was able to get 49.6 % of the votes during our school’s class rep elections (apparently there’s a huge conspiracy theory going around about how a certain admin in our school didn’t want a left-winged, middle-class, counterculture, minority, pagan as president so they fixed the elections but that’s long story).

Oh yeah, almost got off track sorry. Here’s the problem.

I get really nervous occasionally when I’m meeting women. I’ve done all sorts of mental exercises to calm myself down, but for some reason I always get this “deer in the headlights” feeling whenever I’m talking to an attractive female. Even though I’m in the odd counterculture group at school, I still have a good number of attractive female friends that I often talk to and hang out with. But despite what I tell myself (for instance “no matter how stunningly beautiful a woman is, she's still a human being with basic human needs, stop assuming things, assumption is the basis of all mistakes in life, just be yourself, you’re not ugly, stupid nor antisocial so just relax and calm down”) I always get really tense and it makes me feel uncomfortable. I know exactly what to say, and I know the social cues for flirting as well (ex: eye contact, mirror movement, empathetic emotions, friendly gestures, etc) but it’s like no matter how much I practice talking to women and just random people in general, I can never get past the shyness or nervousness on occasions.

Well, there was one time where I got a lot of sleep and woke up and felt great, and I went to renew my driver’s permit and my proctor was this really attractive blonde lady and I tried my best to relax and attempted to flirt with her, and by some odd miracle, despite failing the vision test horribly, she let me pass and smiled and said “have a nice day, sweetie!”. I felt completely shocked and euphoric but the feeling soon passed and I went back to my occasional nervous self.

During the last couple of days, I’ve also tried to practice talking to everyone that I meet so I wouldn’t feel so nervous when I’m talking to women. I work at the hospital so there’s plenty of opportunities for that, I’d always try to smile and say hi to doctors, professors, students, nurses, janitors, patients, etc and find every chance I get to interact with people and start conversations in the elevators, cafeterias, laboratories, etc. But whenever I see an attractive college girl walking by or in the elevators, I can say hi, smile, nod and perhaps engage in a brief friendly conversation but it feels like I’m standing in front of a train. I get so self conscious about everything and start thinking to myself “am I smiling naturally? Am I saying the right things?” when it doesn’t matter at all.

Today, I tried so hard (perhaps a bit too hard) to interact with random people that I ended up getting nervous around everyone by the end of the day. Then I got home and realised that a girl from my school (whom I’ve found quite attractive) left me a message asking me to go see the new Harry potter movie with her. I was so nervous and exhausted from “practicing” my social skills that I politely declined. I didn’t want to risk having a nervous breakdown. Illogical much?

Oh, I've also never formally asked a girl out before. It took me a year before I had the courage to tell a girl that I liked her in 7th grade, she said that made her really happy, but unfortunately it was also my last day at that school before I moved away.

Is there a biological disease that makes people nervous around women? I know there’s a quasi-medical term called caligynephobia but that’s mostly a scam by companies trying to sell “dating for dummies books”.

Thanks for your time.

Just don't think about dating or attraction or anything. Sit down next to a woman and start making conversation, like you would with a friend. That's how I gained confidence. (shrugs)

Hey, at leas you can initiate conversation. I'm stuck in paranoia about what others will think.

That, and I don't get out much cause I'm shy.

Stop your continual "practicing," etc.? Clearly you know how to behave, so I think that at this point, you are just making yourself more nervous.

Also, I like the advice of just talking to someone for the sake of talking, like a friend. As a female, I know that the guys I've liked I've had as friends first. Sometimes, it's better to just have friends and allow something to arise if it so chooses. Especially if you're nervous. ;)

I remember high school. Good times.
I'm 19 now, just finished my first year at college. I've had two girlfriends.
The first only lasted a month, and I was 16. I was with the second one for over two years until not too long ago, and she's even going to school with me (though we didn't go to the same college strictly to be together).

It's something you slowly get over. I still have some trouble talking to girls because I don't have much experience with it, but it just takes getting over by making yourself do it.
If you know a girl has a thing for you then make friends with her, and she won't think poorly of you for saying something stupid because she's glad you're talking to her... she knows guys say stupid things. If you say something bad, then you can still fix it. You don't have to ask them out because you're already friends with them, and you hang out with them anyway, right?

Stop your continual "practicing," etc.? Clearly you know how to behave, so I think that at this point, you are just making yourself more nervous.

Also, I like the advice of just talking to someone for the sake of talking, like a friend. As a female, I know that the guys I've liked I've had as friends first. Sometimes, it's better to just have friends and allow something to arise if it so chooses. Especially if you're nervous. ;)

Happened to me. (Nods)

I have an odd issue and was wondering if the good people of NS forums can help me out. I'm occasionally nervous around women but don't know why. This might be a bit of a read but I’ll try to condense much of it as possible.

Background story: I’m a 17 year old “eligible bachelor” without any previous adolescent relationships because I’m really shy around women. I used to be quite alright with women when I was little, I had several “girlfriends” in elementary and middle school back when I didn’t even like girls. But as I started to like females when puberty kicked in, I started getting really nervous around women. For the last 4-5 years from 7th to 11th grade, there have been many instances where a girl and I have liked each other, but I never had the cojones to ask any of them out and thus nothing happened.

Last October I got really fed up with it so I started reading up on lots and lots of different psychology, sociology and dating articles so I could overcome my problem. I also started working out every single day so I can feel better about myself physically.

I made the assumption that women would be judging men on three factors, physical looks, intelligence, and social skills.

Physically, I’m 5’10 or 175 cm, which is the exact 50% percentile for male height in both the states and england. My weight went down from 168 to 147 lbs since I started working out and eating healthier, and my upper body is relatively toned and thin. (Not muscular though. Kind of like a skater, tennis player or track runner body type) As for facial features, I think I’m relatively attractive (or at least not ugly) because usually I can make a pretty positive first impression. I dress in a mix of indie-ish clothing and vintage victorian so that might be a bit odd in America but there’s quite a bit of people in the counterculture so I think that’s not too much of a problem.

Intellectually I think I’m alright there as well. I can make pretty good marks while taking AP (college levelled) courses in high school. According to the education system here I’m classified as “gifted”, and I am also currently doing cardiovascular research at our local hospital over the summer.

Socially I think I’ve improved a lot in the past school year. My biggest achievement so far is getting past my bias of high school cliques. I’ve learned not to judge people by appearance and I can get along well with just about everyone in school regardless of clique or parental income (our school has a bit of a rich kid/poor kid divide). According to my friends I have good social skills, I try to respect everyone and I usually do my best to treat others with kindness. I know quite a bit of people too and was able to get 49.6 % of the votes during our school’s class rep elections (apparently there’s a huge conspiracy theory going around about how a certain admin in our school didn’t want a left-winged, middle-class, counterculture, minority, pagan as president so they fixed the elections but that’s long story).

Oh yeah, almost got off track sorry. Here’s the problem.

I get really nervous occasionally when I’m meeting women. I’ve done all sorts of mental exercises to calm myself down, but for some reason I always get this “deer in the headlights” feeling whenever I’m talking to an attractive female. Even though I’m in the odd counterculture group at school, I still have a good number of attractive female friends that I often talk to and hang out with. But despite what I tell myself (for instance “no matter how stunningly beautiful a woman is, she's still a human being with basic human needs, stop assuming things, assumption is the basis of all mistakes in life, just be yourself, you’re not ugly, stupid nor antisocial so just relax and calm down”) I always get really tense and it makes me feel uncomfortable. I know exactly what to say, and I know the social cues for flirting as well (ex: eye contact, mirror movement, empathetic emotions, friendly gestures, etc) but it’s like no matter how much I practice talking to women and just random people in general, I can never get past the shyness or nervousness on occasions.

Well, there was one time where I got a lot of sleep and woke up and felt great, and I went to renew my driver’s permit and my proctor was this really attractive blonde lady and I tried my best to relax and attempted to flirt with her, and by some odd miracle, despite failing the vision test horribly, she let me pass and smiled and said “have a nice day, sweetie!”. I felt completely shocked and euphoric but the feeling soon passed and I went back to my occasional nervous self.

During the last couple of days, I’ve also tried to practice talking to everyone that I meet so I wouldn’t feel so nervous when I’m talking to women. I work at the hospital so there’s plenty of opportunities for that, I’d always try to smile and say hi to doctors, professors, students, nurses, janitors, patients, etc and find every chance I get to interact with people and start conversations in the elevators, cafeterias, laboratories, etc. But whenever I see an attractive college girl walking by or in the elevators, I can say hi, smile, nod and perhaps engage in a brief friendly conversation but it feels like I’m standing in front of a train. I get so self conscious about everything and start thinking to myself “am I smiling naturally? Am I saying the right things?” when it doesn’t matter at all.

Today, I tried so hard (perhaps a bit too hard) to interact with random people that I ended up getting nervous around everyone by the end of the day. Then I got home and realised that a girl from my school (whom I’ve found quite attractive) left me a message asking me to go see the new Harry potter movie with her. I was so nervous and exhausted from “practicing” my social skills that I politely declined. I didn’t want to risk having a nervous breakdown. Illogical much?

Oh, I've also never formally asked a girl out before. It took me a year before I had the courage to tell a girl that I liked her in 7th grade, she said that made her really happy, but unfortunately it was also my last day at that school before I moved away.

Is there a biological disease that makes people nervous around women? I know there’s a quasi-medical term called caligynephobia but that’s mostly a scam by companies trying to sell “dating for dummies books”.

Thanks for your time.


Personally, I'd try avoiding the scientific analysis and such. Simply say "fuck the consequences" to yourself, and act as you feel appropriate; apparently, girls are human too, and are no less prone to awkwardness and low confidence than you.

Oh, and get drunk. Being tipsy makes everything easier in my experiance.

Here's my opinion. I have had vast experience in the high school world of being the middle man/counselor for friends relationships, and relationship difficulties, yet have not mad a move on anyone because of nervousness.
Girls want someone adventerous, confident in themselves, protective yet not clingy, spontaneous yet controlled, gentle yet fun, good looking (obviously, although I am suprised at how superficial girls in general are! [men, we're expected to be superficial]), smart (both socialy and academicaly), has good tastes, will stand for themselves and let them (girl) be herself.

The key to relationships is trust. If both can let them and each other be themselves, no matter how nervous, then the relationship is golden.

email me if you have questions comments concerns... scottywotty08@gmail.com:rolleyes:

Listen to Bono's speech during Sunday Bloody Sunday on U2's Rattle and Hum DVD (or watch it on YouTube). "Fuck the revolution", pretty much inspires you to do anything after that... if you're into U2. Seriously, I find things much easier to do after I listen to music, but I'm a musical type of person.

Whoa.. I certainly wasn't expecting 113 replies overall. I really appreciate all the discussions and tips from everyone. Looks like this had turned out to be quite a successful thread. :)

I took a collection of tips and started acting upon that. As I'm only 17 and living in the states it's not that easy to get alcohol (nor do I want to become reliant upon the substance in order to relax around women, although I'm sure it works wonders when used sparingly). The faking confidence part seems like it's worth a shot, and seeing how a vast majority of the people replied that they "wing it" in social situations at first. I mean, it can't be that hard, right? I've already started "faking it" for one day and it seems to have really good results starting out. Now the challenge is to maintain it. :D

I'm guessing it'll work like the Stanford Prison experiment (where college students were put into roles of prisoners and guards, and within a few days they completed adapted to the roles and almost lost their sense of reality) so if perhaps if I can act confidently then eventually I'll become confident as well.

LOL so if you never had a girlfriend, how do you know what they're looking for?:D

Simple, although I have never had a girlfriend, I know many females, and all of the hot ones tend to go out with the muscly types that can bench twice their body weight. Also, given that I work in a supermarket, you notice the couples that come through and usually the hot chicks are with a muscly type.

Port Arcana, thanks for saying thanks; I hope that you achieve your goal of getting confidence around people, particularly hot chicks.

Simple, although I have never had a girlfriend, I know many females, and all of the hot ones tend to go out with the muscly types that can bench twice their body weight. Also, given that I work in a supermarket, you notice the couples that come through and usually the hot chicks are with a muscly type.

Port Arcana, thanks for saying thanks; I hope that you achieve your goal of getting confidence around people, particularly hot chicks.

Being a chick, I think you're only noticing what you WANT to notice. I see all kinds of chicks with all kinds of dudes.

Ok...women...big topic but concidering I am a woman I know what I'm talking about here...When nervous people can send positive and negitive vibes to the others around them...giving a smile even when nervous shows the girl that she is welcome to talk to you but some people when nervous try to abosoulutely avoid that certain person so it sends them a negitive vibe saying "back off or else". Mostly your body language is what really does the trick. I may only be but of 14 years but I do know what I am talking about. My friends agree with me that my smile is what is most inviting to them to be my friends right? Well then try to smile it will invite her in to talk to you and it will make the conversation more pleasureable. Another thing make her laugh...us girls we love to giggle all the time...and its healthy for us. Also give her compliments such as "you look pretty today". But like my friends think telling her she is hot pretty much means "hey can I get in your pants" so just stay with the word beautiful ok. Another thing..Treat her like a human not a piece of your property. When guys are over protective of a women she feels uncomfortable and sufficated so jealousy is not the best answer around her if she has guy friends who you think may be over friendly. I may live in America but over friendly guys are the ones girls seem to hang out with not date because over friendly makes you feel smothered in happienes constantly with out no stop. Girls also like serious guys. A guy that can joke a bit but stay serious and keep his cool is what most of us look for. ;)
Top Ten Things About A Good Boyfriend
1. Tell her she is beautiful
2.Make her giggle
3. Tell her how much you love her
4. Smile
5. Romantic (like if your doing a project on the movie version of Romeo and Juliet recite romeo's lines for a romantic mood that will make her blush)
6. Kiss her even if everyone is watching
7.NOT OVERPROTECTIVE!!!
8.Hold her hand
9. Treat her with respect
10.Respect her wishes (meaning if you want to get some from her and she says no follow her wishes to make her feel imortant to you and like you do actually care about her)

Being a chick, I think you're only noticing what you WANT to notice. I see all kinds of chicks with all kinds of dudes.

I am not merely noticing what I want to notice; I am noticing what goes on around me. When I saw a hot chick that I know go out with an average guy that I know, I, along with virtually everyone else that knew them, were shocked; why? Because this is a sort of match up that does not happen.

This has even had a page dedicated to it in Time Magazine; in the last page of the May 7th Issue (the one with America At 400 on the cover), an essay entitled "The Last Taboo," here it is if you want to read it

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1615172,00.html

So, I am not noticing what I just want to notice; I am noticing something that happens in everyday life; something that has even made it into Time Magazine.

Just take your pants off and act like nothing's changed since.

It always works for me. ;)

Girl: "Is that your... uh... you know..."

Me: (Swirling coke in a wine glass) "My penis? Why yes. Yes it certainly is."

I made the assumption that women would be judging men on three factors, physical looks, intelligence, and social skills. That would be a safe bet.
*nods*


I get really nervous occasionally when I’m meeting women. I’ve done all sorts of mental exercises to calm myself down, but for some reason I always get this “deer in the headlights” feeling whenever I’m talking to an attractive female. Even though I’m in the odd counterculture group at school, I still have a good number of attractive female friends that I often talk to and hang out with. But despite what I tell myself (for instance “no matter how stunningly beautiful a woman is, she's still a human being with basic human needs, stop assuming things, assumption is the basis of all mistakes in life, just be yourself, you’re not ugly, stupid nor antisocial so just relax and calm down”) I always get really tense and it makes me feel uncomfortable. I know exactly what to say, and I know the social cues for flirting as well (ex: eye contact, mirror movement, empathetic emotions, friendly gestures, etc) but it’s like no matter how much I practice talking to women and just random people in general, I can never get past the shyness or nervousness on occasions. It's a matter of disproportionate sense of value, that's all it is.
And it's extraordinarily common.


During the last couple of days, I’ve also tried to practice talking to everyone that I meet so I wouldn’t feel so nervous when I’m talking to women. I work at the hospital so there’s plenty of opportunities for that, I’d always try to smile and say hi to doctors, professors, students, nurses, janitors, patients, etc and find every chance I get to interact with people and start conversations in the elevators, cafeterias, laboratories, etc.Good practice. What you need to do is attribute the same value of affability to people you find physically attractive. Admittedly difficult in practice, but it's gonna take that comfort to take care of your problem, seriously.
I get so self conscious about everything and start thinking to myself “am I smiling naturally? Am I saying the right things?” when it doesn’t matter at all. It matters a little bit, but those preoccupations are translated. You need to delve into "vibe".


Today, I tried so hard (perhaps a bit too hard) to interact with random people that I ended up getting nervous around everyone by the end of the day. Then I got home and realised that a girl from my school (whom I’ve found quite attractive) left me a message asking me to go see the new Harry potter movie with her. I was so nervous and exhausted from “practicing” my social skills that I politely declined. I didn’t want to risk having a nervous breakdown. Illogical much? You should've gone. If nothing else, both of you would have been watching a movie you might have enjoyed, leaving the two of you with a mutual experience you could talk about later - often an excellent opportunity to get to know each other better.


Oh, I've also never formally asked a girl out before. It took me a year before I had the courage to tell a girl that I liked her in 7th grade, she said that made her really happy, but unfortunately it was also my last day at that school before I moved away. Ouch.

Is there a biological disease that makes people nervous around women? I know there’s a quasi-medical term called caligynephobia but that’s mostly a scam by companies trying to sell “dating for dummies books”. Mostly psychophysiological.


Thanks for your time.Good luck with that.
Work with the people who know you best - the people who know the difference between the front you want people to see, and the you that is unadulterated and comfortable.

You're not diseased, you're just shy. That's normal. You have to work up to it slowly. Befriend more females (one's you're not attracted to) and practise making conversation with them. You'll get more comfortable, and eventually you'll be able to approach attractive women. And bear in mind, women aren't evil. Most of us won't be offended or horrified if you have a crush. More likely, we'll be very flattered and nice about it, even if we don't like you back.

More likely, we'll be very flattered and nice about it, even if we don't like you back.

Now that's one of those things women do trying to be nice that actually makes guys feel worse. :p

Most of us won't be offended or horrified if you have a crush. More likely, we'll be very flattered and nice about it, even if we don't like you back.

Wait, what? :eek:

(Thats certainly news to me, although I couldn't prove or disprove that either way since I was usually extremely secretive about my crushes)

Whoa, I think we've (or I've) hit a discovery here!

So, let me get this right. If I've known a friend for several weeks, and I say to her "I think you're a very beautiful woman, I'd like to get to know you a bit more, would you like to go see to a dinner and a movie?" and there's a chance that she won't react negatively?

Damn, it really makes sense now. Well, the biggest problem with me asking out women is that I always wanted to maximise my chances of getting a date so I usually wait too long (probably when she thinks I'm not interested) and then nothing happens.

I'm so afraid of a woman's reply being "I don't like you in that way, I think we should stop being friends" or something like that so that why I never ask people out. But then again as I typed that I realised how stupid it sounded.

Wow. Thanks, Terrorist Cakes.

Just to be on the safe side could someone verify the quoted part?

Well, Arcana, about the only thing I can say is good luck.

Now that's one of those things women do trying to be nice that actually makes guys feel worse. :p

Seconded.

4) a girl can help you much more with this than any internet forum[/QUOTE]

Hey, what about girls ON a forum? Give us some credit, now. :)

Yes, I have been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome.

Really?

One of the cashiers at my workplace (I'm almost two years older than her) winked at me when I was looking in her general direction two weeks ago.

Maybe she thought I was looking at her, but even so, why the wink? She's already deeply (you know what I mean by that) involved with somebody else. Was it friendly? Was it more than that? Was it meaningless, or was it something else entirely?

Whatever the case, I made no gestures in return, and not a word was spoken about it after. I guess sometimes, you just never know... And in this case, I really didn't want to know.

Aw, winking is just fun. You shoulda winked back. ;)

I'm sure it is. It's just the number of people who think they have it who actually don't - *that* is the scam. :p There's big money in psychiatry, remember. ;)

There's actually very few "treatments" for Asperger's, just social skills training. Not much money in that.

Whoa.. I certainly wasn't expecting 113 replies overall. I really appreciate all the discussions and tips from everyone. Looks like this had turned out to be quite a successful thread. :)

I took a collection of tips and started acting upon that. As I'm only 17 and living in the states it's not that easy to get alcohol (nor do I want to become reliant upon the substance in order to relax around women, although I'm sure it works wonders when used sparingly). The faking confidence part seems like it's worth a shot, and seeing how a vast majority of the people replied that they "wing it" in social situations at first. I mean, it can't be that hard, right? I've already started "faking it" for one day and it seems to have really good results starting out. Now the challenge is to maintain it. :D

I'm guessing it'll work like the Stanford Prison experiment (where college students were put into roles of prisoners and guards, and within a few days they completed adapted to the roles and almost lost their sense of reality) so if perhaps if I can act confidently then eventually I'll become confident as well.

That's exactly how it works, except less creepy and alarming than that experiment. The power of the mind is incredible.

Wait, what? :eek:

(Thats certainly news to me, although I couldn't prove or disprove that either way since I was usually extremely secretive about my crushes)

Whoa, I think we've (or I've) hit a discovery here!

So, let me get this right. If I've known a friend for several weeks, and I say to her "I think you're a very beautiful woman, I'd like to get to know you a bit more, would you like to go see to a dinner and a movie?" and there's a chance that she won't react negatively?

Damn, it really makes sense now. Well, the biggest problem with me asking out women is that I always wanted to maximise my chances of getting a date so I usually wait too long (probably when she thinks I'm not interested) and then nothing happens.

I'm so afraid of a woman's reply being "I don't like you in that way, I think we should stop being friends" or something like that so that why I never ask people out. But then again as I typed that I realised how stupid it sounded.

Wow. Thanks, Terrorist Cakes.

Just to be on the safe side could someone verify the quoted part?

It's absolutely true. I have a few friends that have admitted crushes, and it sort of becomes a fun secret in our friendship but it doesn't otherwise fundamentally change things. I have also dated guys that I've been friends with that have admitted crushes, but not when I already have a boyfriend. :)

That's exactly how it works, except less creepy and alarming than that experiment. The power of the mind is incredible.

Essentially, all it takes is getting the ball rolling, and things get better.

In my case, that ball is a boulder. :p

Wait, what? :eek:

(Thats certainly news to me, although I couldn't prove or disprove that either way since I was usually extremely secretive about my crushes)

Whoa, I think we've (or I've) hit a discovery here!

So, let me get this right. If I've known a friend for several weeks, and I say to her "I think you're a very beautiful woman, I'd like to get to know you a bit more, would you like to go see to a dinner and a movie?" and there's a chance that she won't react negatively?

Damn, it really makes sense now. Well, the biggest problem with me asking out women is that I always wanted to maximise my chances of getting a date so I usually wait too long (probably when she thinks I'm not interested) and then nothing happens.

I'm so afraid of a woman's reply being "I don't like you in that way, I think we should stop being friends" or something like that so that why I never ask people out. But then again as I typed that I realised how stupid it sounded.

Wow. Thanks, Terrorist Cakes.

Just to be on the safe side could someone verify the quoted part?


Well, I can't speak for everyone, but most girls I know wouldn't react so extremely as to say, "we can't be friends anymore." The exact reaction depends a lot on the girl herself. The girl might like you back, and be over the moon that you asked her. Or, she might not have thought of you in that way before, but be willing to try it out. Of course there's the possibility that for some reason she's really not interested (likes somebody, is not turned on by you at all, commitment-phobic, etc), but that's not necessarily going to be as dramatic as you're forseeing. Unless you're like hard-core creepy, she'll probably think it's really cute that you like her, and let you down gently. I personally would feel totally comfortable staying friends with a guy who had admitted to liking me, and might even say yes to him, if I wasn't involved with anyone else and saw potential in him. There will be the occasional woman that doesn't fit this mould, who'll laugh in your face or use you for sex, but that's the exception to the rule. And you wouldn't really want to be involved with or even stay friends with someone like that, would you?

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but most girls I know wouldn't react so extremely as to say, "we can't be friends anymore." The exact reaction depends a lot on the girl herself. The girl might like you back, and be over the moon that you asked her. Or, she might not have thought of you in that way before, but be willing to try it out. Of course there's the possibility that for some reason she's really not interested (likes somebody, is not turned on by you at all, commitment-phobic, etc), but that's not necessarily going to be as dramatic as you're forseeing. Unless you're like hard-core creepy, she'll probably think it's really cute that you like her, and let you down gently. I personally would feel totally comfortable staying friends with a guy who had admitted to liking me, and might even say yes to him, if I wasn't involved with anyone else and saw potential in him. There will be the occasional woman that doesn't fit this mould, who'll laugh in your face or use you for sex, but that's the exception to the rule. And you wouldn't really want to be involved with or even stay friends with someone like that, would you?

Well said. After all, women are also people with feelings and in general don't want to hurt other people when it's not needed :)

There's actually very few "treatments" for Asperger's, just social skills training. Not much money in that.

That stuff isn't expensive? ;)

Really though, they'd probably load you up with anti-anxiety drugs, and suggest weekly or bi-weekly therapy. You don't make your fortune with one patient, but a few will get you there. :p