NationStates Jolt Archive

Double amputee to race in able-bodied sprint
Pistorius will run in 400 meters against field that includes Olympic champ

LONDON - Oscar Pistorius, a double-amputee who races on carbon fiber blades attached below his knees, will get a chance to prove himself against the best runners in the world.

The 20-year-old South African will run the 400 meters at the Norwich Union Grand Prix in Sheffield on Sunday in a field that includes Olympic champion Jeremy Wariner.

Also entered are former Olympic relay gold medalist Darold Williamson of the United States, Commonwealth Games 400-meter champion John Steffensen of Australia, and former 400-meter Olympic hurdles champion Angelo Taylor.
“I’ve been chucked in the deep end with the best guys in the world,” Pistorius said Tuesday. “There’s a lot to learn.”

“There never has been a Paralympic sprinter to fuse the gap between able-bodied and disabled sport,” he added. “The next single amputee runs about 48 meters behind me on the 400 and the next double amputee runs about 110 meters behind. So for me to break into this field is unique.”

Pistorius will get a first taste on Friday, when he runs in the second-tier “B” 400-meter race at the Golden League meet in Rome.

Pistorius was born without fibulas — the long, thin outer bone between the knee and ankle — and was 11 months old when his legs were amputated below the knee. He began running four years ago to treat a rugby injury, and nine months later won the 200 meters at the Athens Paralympics.

He has gone on to set world records in the Paralympic 100, 200 and 400, but now wants a new challenge.

Pistorius was given permission to race in able-bodied races by the International Association of Athletics Federations last month, but still faces a struggle to take the step up to Olympic level amid claims the curved blades he runs on create an unfair advantage.

it keeps going so you'll have to click the link to find out the end of story.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19695868/

What do you all thunk about this?
I'm still a little uncertain - about 90% for him competing. The 10% that's wavering wonders do the prosthetic limbs give him any advantage and if so, how much. Then again, as he states he's way ahead of any other amputee and the limbs have been around for over a decade. If they're that good, why aren't there several athletes at his level.
If he wins and it's shown to be due to the prosthetics, we might have dozens of able-bodied athletes hacking their own legs off! Think of the carnage!


In sports like cycling, the guy with the best cycle has a huge advantage over the rest, yet that's legal whereas steroids ain't. A few years ago a Brit turned up to the World champs (iirc - it might even have been the Olympics) with some amazing bike that did cost 1/2 mill pounds. Before the comp he wasn't rated in the top 20, yet broke the world record a couple of times and came out World Champion.
I can't really see the difference between someone taking steroids and another using a bike the rest couldn't afford. It's the same at the most basic level (that of having an unfair competitive advantage over the other competitors).
Still they allow this (different bikes) into the Olympics, so why not prosthetics? That way when he competes, we can all say, "ahhh...bless! He's so brave!" and other such pointless and nauseating condescensions.
I'm digressing here a bit so I'll stop.

Hmm, I know what you mean about the advantage - those blade things look like Kangaroo boots.

If he wins and it's shown to be due to the prosthetics, we might have dozens of able-bodied athletes hacking their own legs off! Think of the carnage!


Wow, we could have a reality show for poor professional athletes: they all get their legs amputated, but only one will win prosthetics AND free medical care!

:eek:Sometimes I scare myself.

I can see why drugs and the like aren't allowed. Otherwise athletes would ened up pushing themselves just that little bit too far and killing themselves with an otherdose or something. At least your body has ways of telling you if you have been exercising too much.

As for mechanical aides, because that's what this prosthetic leg is... I dunno, I guess it's a bit like comparing the 100m sprint to the 100m hurdles, or the freestyle to the butterfly. It just doesn't appear to be the same race.

I can't really see the difference between someone taking steroids and another using a bike the rest couldn't afford. It's the same at the most basic level (that of having an unfair competitive advantage over the other competitors).

Don't people who train harder and longer have an "unfair advantage" over their competitors? I mean they put months more training in....

Don't people who train harder and longer have an "unfair advantage" over their competitors? I mean they put months more training in....

No, it's fair in that the other competitors could have trained for as long if they wanted - as opposed to not being able to afford a bike or not surreptitiously taking steroids - given you're not writing in jest.

...and for this reason I'm against prosthetics directly related to the particular sport being allowed - if the guy had a prosthetic arm then I'm fine, but legs no.

Just say No!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19695868/

What do you all thunk about this?
I'm still a little uncertain - about 90% for him competing. The 10% that's wavering wonders do the prosthetic limbs give him any advantage and if so, how much. Then again, as he states he's way ahead of any other amputee and the limbs have been around for over a decade. If they're that good, why aren't there several athletes at his level.


Because when you narrow it down, hes just a fast bugger. They weigh 4 [pounds too, which you'd feel as an artifical limb. Plus theres the pressure of the weight of the body on the stump at the base. Anything less than a perfect fit is uncomfortable in normal circumstances let alone pounding along on it.

Wow, we could have a reality show for poor professional athletes: they all get their legs amputated, but only one will win prosthetics AND free medical care!

:eek:Sometimes I scare myself.


Damnation Sir, thats the kind of talk that gets a man his own Sloop! You shall be commended to the Admiralty in despatches....

Don't people who train harder and longer have an "unfair advantage" over their competitors? I mean they put months more training in....
but everyone can train for months. Not everyone can afford a £1/2 million bicycle. There is a slight difference there.

At any rate, your logic is the same athletes that do steroids use - if steroids are bad cause they give you an advantage, then why isn't nutritional advice, training, exercising, coaching ...etc etc also illegal?

Where do we draw the line? We use more then our legs to race. What about a man with say... an artificial heart valve? Or a tennis player who has undergone knee surgery? Those knee implants may pose an unfair advantage!:rolleyes:

Its not like this guy has cyber-super-legs or anything. He's obviously an extraordinary athlete. I say let him race. Seriously- having his legs cut off at the knee cant be HELPING him.

but everyone can train for months. Not everyone can afford a £1/2 million bicycle. There is a slight difference there.

Straight back at ya kiddo

nyah nyah nyah

Hehehehe...carbon nanofiber blades...hahaha.

I just keep picturing him suddenly using one to slice off the heads of the competition.

Anyway, let the man compete. He has no advantage. Indeed, he might have a disadvantage.

Straight back at ya kiddo

nyah nyah nyah
Damn you jolt and your time-server problems!
Also damn you Barringtonia for being a quicker typer and faster thinker than me!
And finally damn you mutter and papa for giving me such pudgy fingers which are not designed for typing!
*shakes ham-type fist*

...and for this reason I'm against prosthetics directly related to the particular sport being allowed - if the guy had a prosthetic arm then I'm fine, but legs no.
But in sprinting, they use their arms (and other muscles) a lot more than you would think. Just look at the size of their chests and arms on a top sprinter - do you think they do all that upper body work just to look good?

But in sprinting, they use their arms (and other muscles) a lot more than you would think. Just look at the size of their chests and arms on a top sprinter - do you think they do all that upper body work just to look good?

But in all honesty, people carry them - they don't really replace the limb....

But in sprinting, they use their arms (and other muscles) a lot more than you would think. Just look at the size of their chests and arms on a top sprinter - do you think they do all that upper body work just to look good?

They don't :eek:

The thing is, if these were normal prosthetic legs, this wouldn't be an issue because he wouldn't be able to compete anyway - but these are enhanced springy, carbon-fibre legs and I can see them as being an advantage.

Likewise for a prosthetic arm - if it was an electronic bionic arm then I'd have problems - but a normal prosthetic arm wouldn't give anyone an advantage, in fact it would be a clear disadvantage.

As soon as I saw the photograph I instantly knew that I would be voting "no". It is very obvious that those prosthetics would give an extreme advantage to anyone using them. The fact that no other amputee has performed as well as this gentleman just means he is the first serious athelete to use them.

They don't :eek:

The thing is, if these were normal prosthetic legs, this wouldn't be an issue because he wouldn't be able to compete anyway - but these are enhanced springy, carbon-fibre legs and I can see them as being an advantage.

Likewise for a prosthetic arm - if it was an electronic bionic arm then I'd have problems - but a normal prosthetic arm wouldn't give anyone an advantage, in fact it would be a clear disadvantage.
Except that maybe all these limbs do is act like the muscles in the lower legs would (in that it gives the runner the same amount of force/power in each stride). It's hardly an unfair advantage to have well-developed calves now is it?

No, it's fair in that the other competitors could have trained for as long if they wanted - as opposed to not being able to afford a bike or not surreptitiously taking steroids - given you're not writing in jest.

...and for this reason I'm against prosthetics directly related to the particular sport being allowed - if the guy had a prosthetic arm then I'm fine, but legs no.

Just say No!

People can take loans out, or raise money for, the buying of sporting equipment.
Olympic athletes do it all the time.

You could argue that the athletes who DON'T have prosthetic limbs have the natural advantage, having been training 18 or more years with their equipment.

I'm going to chop my feet off, and afix rocket powered rollerskates.

As soon as I saw the photograph I instantly knew that I would be voting "no". It is very obvious that those prosthetics would give an extreme advantage to anyone using them. The fact that no other amputee has performed as well as this gentleman just means he is the first serious athelete to use them.

Highly unlikely.

I'm going to chop my feet off, and afix rocket powered rollerskates.

Let us know as soon as you break your neck. Assuming, of course, you don't die of infection.

Anyway, Barringtonia, you're overreacting. It's not as if the artificial limbs make them Robocop. They're just replacements for the natural limbs with the same general capabilities.

Let us know as soon as you break your neck. Assuming, of course, you don't die of infection.

Anyway, Barringtonia, you're overreacting. It's not as if the artificial limbs make them Robocop. They're just replacements for the natural limbs with the same general capabilities.

Not to mention the world record 400m paralympic time is a full 6 seconds slower than the able bodied Olympic record.

Look, I know about prosthetics. I keep up waiting for the individual finger muscle detector to become available for myself. The carbon fiber running feet only give a semblance of how real human running operates. It is nowhere near an unfair advantage because amputee prosthetic technology will never replicate human feet, hands, arms, legs, and the other parts prostheses replace.

The thing is, if these were normal prosthetic legs, this wouldn't be an issue because he wouldn't be able to compete anyway - but these are enhanced springy, carbon-fibre legs and I can see them as being an advantage.

Likewise for a prosthetic arm - if it was an electronic bionic arm then I'd have problems - but a normal prosthetic arm wouldn't give anyone an advantage, in fact it would be a clear disadvantage.

Without those carbon fiber feet and as you call them "bionic" arms, they never play those sports. You wouldn't believe the wide range of specific "attachments" to prosthetic arms in order to play certain sports. Lacrosse, hockey, basketball, field hockey, you name it, there's a way. In no way do they give an advantage.


Could I get a prosthetic arm? Yes. Will I? No, there's no need. I fence right-handed and I have gotten along fine without one since about second grade, I think. Don't remember exactly when.

He shouldn't go to the Olympics, shouldn't even be racing in Sheffield. Why?

Simple reason is that he isn't fast enough at the moment. He's fifth in South Africa's team.

IS PISTORIUS GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE OLYMPICS?
Not at the moment. The South African's best time is 46.34 seconds, which puts him a huge three seconds behind Olympic champion Warriner's best.

Pistorius stands fifth in this year's South African rankings with a season's best of 46.56.

Yet the 20-year-old argues he will improve massively if allowed to compete against the world's best - which is what will happen for the first time in Sheffield on Sunday.

"It's the first able-bodied international race I've had against all the fastest guys in the world," he told BBC Sport.

"I've got a lot to learn and I don't think I could learn it against any better guys than the ones I'm competing against. So I'm pretty excited.

"In four to five years' time I want to be running under 45 seconds. Why shouldn't that be possible?"


So no.

link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/6292786.stm)

Could I get a prosthetic arm? Yes. Will I? No, there's no need. I fence right-handed and I have gotten along fine without one since about second grade, I think. Don't remember exactly when.


Were you right or left handed, might I ask?

He shouldn't go to the Olympics, shouldn't even be racing in Sheffield. Why?

Simple reason is that he isn't fast enough at the moment. He's fifth in South Africa's team.


So no.
His point is that he's not been pushed at any point thus far. He's winning races and setting records way out on his own. He wants the chance to race against people who could beat him - thus giving him the motivation and that extra push to improve.
Which is what all athletes want.
So why not this guy?

Is he any good? I think that should be the deciding factor, not whether or not his legs are real or bionic.

Were you right or left handed, might I ask?

Oh, I was born with it. Is the term pre-natal the correct one? They never found exactly why, it was simply defined as "it happens." Some graduate student tried to tie it to pesticides on our lawn, but it didn't pan out. What matters is nothing else is wrong with me, and I can live life to the fullest.

I am right handed. I think I would have been left handed, because I kick left footed.

Oh, I was born with it. Is the term pre-natal the correct one? They never found exactly why, it was simply defined as "it happens." Some graduate student tried to tie it to pesticides on our lawn, but it didn't pan out. What matters is nothing else is wrong with me, and I can live life to the fullest.

I am right handed. I think I would have been left handed, because I kick left footed.

They said much the same to me, but it was over something else. I had to have my right amputated 2 years ago due to a tumour on the wrist. It couldn't be removed witout taking the nerves that conrol the hand (leaving it "dead") so I had it chopped from a few inches below the elbow. I use a few hooks/grips for various things - I don't bother with the cosmetic crap.

They said much the same to me, but it was over something else. I had to have my right amputated 2 years ago due to a tumour on the wrist. It couldn't be removed witout taking the nerves that conrol the hand (leaving it "dead") so I had it chopped from a few inches below the elbow. I use a few hooks/grips for various things - I don't bother with the cosmetic crap.
I believe you especially would benefit from the technology I was talking about. They're supposedly working on a prosthetic that detects the muscle movements in the arm for individual fingers. I can kind of discern a difference in trying to mover my "fingers," but you would definitely be able to tell.

Like I said, I haven't used a prosthetic in years.

His point is that he's not been pushed at any point thus far. He's winning races and setting records way out on his own. He wants the chance to race against people who could beat him - thus giving him the motivation and that extra push to improve.
Which is what all athletes want.
So why not this guy?

There is a circuit of races for people to prove themselves. Currently he's jumping that circuit because he normally raced in paralympic events etc. By jumping ahead he's depriving someone else of their chance to race. He should be running in the B-races of meetings etc whatever the outcome of the decision on whether he has an advantage or not. Not at the elite meeting and certainly not the olympics until he's proved his speed.

I think its a good thing... if he can compete with people that have no legs like himself and win, then he shoudl have the oppurtunity too compete against the world's greatest with legs. It takes a lot of dedication to become as good as he is while being a double amputee.

Of course they should let him compete. Like it or not, things like this are going to become more and more common and eventually prosthetics are going to move beyond replacement to enhancement. We need a cohesive policy in order to ensure fair competition.

This should be used as a way of establishing precedent for these kinds of technologies more than anything else.

There was a whole segment about this on Al-Jazeera English a few days ago.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=d17vqoH9Xfs

Personally, I don't think the prosthetics give him any sort of advantage. Pistorius is the best amputee runner in history, and he isn't even close to the best able-bodied athletes. If he had such an unfair advantage, he would beating everybody's records instead of struggling to catch up with the Olympic-level runners.

I believe you especially would benefit from the technology I was talking about. They're supposedly working on a prosthetic that detects the muscle movements in the arm for individual fingers. I can kind of discern a difference in trying to mover my "fingers," but you would definitely be able to tell.

Like I said, I haven't used a prosthetic in years.

From what I can tell, most don't bother. Certainly had I been born without it, I wouldn't myself. For the expense, theres relatively little return. Currently I'm using this for most of the day
http://www.oandp.com/products/trs/adults/grip_prehensors.asp

The first I had was a voluntary opening split hook, which was shite. This, though expensive, makes a good solid grip possible and has a bit of weight for thumping switches and poking womens asses ('nothin like being groped by a one armed sleaze bag to turn yez on', as I point out).

What I'm looking at as the possible "new car" is this
http://www.touchbionics.com/professionals.php?pageid=12&section=4

Apparently its robust, and the grip is slightly stronger than average human strength. I will be seated and sedated when the pricing comes in....

I don't have a problem with it, really.
Then again I could care less about most of the Olympics. If he's good enough, he can compete. If not, then he won't make it.

Of course they should let him compete. Like it or not, things like this are going to become more and more common and eventually prosthetics are going to move beyond replacement to enhancement. We need a cohesive policy in order to ensure fair competition.

This should be used as a way of establishing precedent for these kinds of technologies more than anything else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnoGaLAMq48

That's a race where he's running - it's pretty impressive.

I am still uncomfortable with prosthetics competing against natural limbs - I just think either way that there's a strong enough difference that the race is unequal.

Having said that, the quoted post makes a good point - it's an inevitable issue that's going to arise and if this guy is the one to challenge the point then fine. I think it's an interesting situation - how far will enhancements go?

This slope is a tad too slippery for me.

This slope is a tad too slippery for me.

Check the end of the video above - it's a bit slippery for one of the runners as well.

I am still uncomfortable with prosthetics competing against natural limbs - I just think either way that there's a strong enough difference that the race is unequal.

He can't run faster than an able-bodied person. How hard is that to grasp? If he enters that race, he will not win. Maybe he'll beat a person or two, but, like I said, the WR difference is six seconds. Prosthetics only give a semblance of normality.

Check the end of the video above - it's a bit slippery for one of the runners as well.

It sounded way too much like horse racing.

if it were I'm sure there'd be a cadre of gunshots afterwards :(

He can't run faster than an able-bodied person. How hard is that to grasp? If he enters that race, he will not win. Maybe he'll beat a person or two, but, like I said, the WR difference is six seconds. Prosthetics only give a semblance of normality.

I'm not saying he can or can't - and to take one person as the be all and end all of the discussion is limited - I'm saying the difference is great enough that it's not a true comparison of ability - I greatly admire his athleticism but I'm just not sure it's a fair comparison either way

I'm not saying he can or can't - and to take one person as the be all and end all of the discussion is limited - I'm saying the difference is great enough that it's not a true comparison of ability - I greatly admire his athleticism but I'm just not sure it's a fair comparison either way

I say let him run it to prove either way. Don't see why its a problem.

I say let him run it to prove either way. Don't see why its a problem.

Trading disability for mechanical advantage is a very shady area.

There is no way to determine what exactly will make this man 100% capable without giving him an edge, or a disadvantage. It's really too much of a headache.