NationStates Jolt Archive

Australians can rest assured out tradition of quiet secularism has been preserved against an onslaught from the right. Read bellow for more details
Pell's divine intervention won't fly in Australia
Thursday June 7, 2007


Article By Laurie Oakes
National Nine News
Political editor

The high point of a debate among Republican candidates for the US presidential nomination the other day came when lightning struck the hall in Manchester, New Hampshire. One of the front-runners, Rudy Giuliani, was on his feet at the time defending his position on abortion.
Giuliani's line — that he personally opposes abortion but believes women should be able to decide for themselves whether to terminate a pregnancy — has come under fire from right wing clerics, one Catholic bishop comparing him with Pontius Pilot.
The lightning strike knocked out Giuliani's microphone and created a dreadful noise. Looking to the heavens, the former New York Mayor — himself a Catholic — said: "For anyone who went to parochial (church) schools all his life, this is a very frightening thing that’s happening right now."
The audience laughed. Giuliani won some points. But the fact that the abortion issue is proving such a problem for Giuliani's presidential aspirations is yet another illustration of the influence religious conservatives have on politics in America.



And it coincided with the controversy over Cardinal George Pell's clumsy intervention in the NSW Parliament’s debate over stem cell research which was yet another illustration of the way religious conservatives are trying to wield similar influence over politics in this country.
The Catholic Archbishop of Sydney warned Catholic MPs that there would be "consequences" for their place in the life of the church if they voted for the legislation. Pell was quoted as saying he had not reached a decision on whether to continue offering Holy Communion to Morris Iemma if the NSW premier supported the Bill.
Shades of the US again. In 2004 an American Archbishop said he would deny communion to Democratic nominee John Kerry, a Catholic who supported a woman’s right to choose on abortion.
When Pell uttered his threats, though, lightning did not strike the NSW Parliament. A storm broke around the Cardinal instead. MPs from all sides — including Catholics — savaged him and asserted their right to vote according to their consciences.
National Party MP Adrian Piccoli, a Catholic, said Pell's behaviour was unacceptable, and added: "We don’t accept that Muslims should influence politics, so I don’t see why Catholics should". A minister, Nathan Rees, compared the Cardinal with "that serial boofhead Sheik al-Hilaly".
It was a point well made.
Pell has done the Catholic Church no favours by trying to bully members of parliament in this way. But the Australian body politic is healthier because he was rebuffed so forcefully.
A federal law includes in a definition of contempt of Parliament conduct amounting to "an improper interference…with the free performance by a member of the member’s duties as a member".
Cardinal Pell should take note. This is Australia — not the USA.

They have the right to vote for this bill. And the Church has the right to excommunicate them.

They have the right to vote for this bill. And the Church has the right to excommunicate them.

And Parliament has a right to remove tax exempt status from the Catholic church for attempted extortion.

You're move.

And Parliament has a right to remove tax exempt status from the Catholic church for attempted extortion.

You're move.

Following Church rules =/= extortion.

They have the right to vote for this bill. And the Church has the right to excommunicate them.

I think the Church has better things to do than run around excommunicating willy-nilly.

The lightning strike knocked out Giuliani's microphone and created a dreadful noise. Looking to the heavens, the former New York Mayor — himself a Catholic — said: "For anyone who went to parochial (church) schools all his life, this is a very frightening thing that’s happening right now."
The audience laughed. Giuliani won some points. But the fact that the abortion issue is proving such a problem for Giuliani's presidential aspirations is yet another illustration of the influence religious conservatives have on politics in America.

As much as I'd really prefer Newt, I must admit that Rudy's not without some class. :p That said, any religious reasoning behind policy, either here or elsewhere, should come from elected officials' sensibilities, not from external religious authorities leaning on politicians with threats. Not a good thing. :(

I think the Church has better things to do than run around excommunicating willy-nilly.

That's true - there's a lot of people out there who could be excommunicated, but I've never seen any action to that effect. :p

Following Church rules =/= extortion.

"Do as I say or we excommunicate you"

It's extortion pretty much. Threat of negative consequences unless their demands are met. The church doesn't have any place interfering with the political system. Either it drops its tax exempt status and plays it like any other political party, or it shuts up and avoids paying tax.

It didn't shut up. Now it pays the price.

"Do as I say or we excommunicate you"

It's extortion pretty much. Threat of negative consequences unless their demands are met. The church doesn't have any place interfering with the political system. Either it drops its tax exempt status and plays it like any other political party, or it shuts up and avoids paying tax.

It didn't shut up. Now it pays the price.

Eh. I'm not sure about how things work in Australia, but I always thought you could only be excommunicated from the Catholic church if you were a Catholic yourself to begin with. The Church, if it's relying on centuries-old dogma, couldn't be said to be doing anything outside it's proper function by sanctioning one of its members here. If it was given tax-exempt status in the past, it would be hard to argue that the Church is doing something that wasn't considered at that time - since it's one of those things it has always done. :p

Eh. I'm not sure about how things work in Australia, but I always thought you could only be excommunicated from the Catholic church if you were a Catholic yourself to begin with. The Church, if it's relying on centuries-old dogma, couldn't be said to be doing anything outside it's proper function by sanctioning one of its members here. If it was given tax-exempt status in the past, it would be hard to argue that the Church is doing something that wasn't considered at that time - since it's one of those things it has always done. :p

The problem with centuries old dogma is the fact that it came in a time of kings and absolute lack of a constitution that read anything more than "I am the boss of you." where the king's personal beliefs were reason enough to declare that Thursday was meatloaf day.

Here and now we've got the whole separation of church and state clauses. The dogma is outdated and unworkable now.

"Do as I say or we excommunicate you"

It's extortion pretty much. Threat of negative consequences unless their demands are met. The church doesn't have any place interfering with the political system. Either it drops its tax exempt status and plays it like any other political party, or it shuts up and avoids paying tax.

It didn't shut up. Now it pays the price.

This is the Church warning that Catholics who vote for this can/will be excommunicated. It's not extortion. It's not a threat. It's common sense. The MPs need to choose between their opinions/party lines and their faith. The Church does not have to change it's policy for the secular system.

The problem with centuries old dogma is the fact that it came in a time of kings and absolute lack of a constitution that read anything more than "I am the boss of you." where the king's personal beliefs were reason enough to declare that Thursday was meatloaf day.

Here and now we've got the whole separation of church and state clauses. The dogma is outdated and unworkable now.

Sounds like something that should've been considered *before* extending tax-exempt status. :p The right to exclude people from a church who don't belong due to differing beliefs is always going to be there, after all.

And Parliament has a right to remove tax exempt status from the Catholic church for attempted extortion.

You're move.

It would be a refreshing change for a nation to REMOVE tax-exempt status from the Roman Catholic Church, because the Roman Catholic Church is a POLITICAL force as well as a religious one; they mix Church and State. Islam is similar in that aspect.

I think the Church has better things to do than run around excommunicating willy-nilly.

Nope, not really.

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=32830
Or, for sure, the right reasons, at least. :rolleyes:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12864021&postcount=13

It's common sense.

Le sens commun n'est pas si commun.
Besides, you're talking about church, whose historical (of a few) cornerstone is faith, which is abandonment of ration, reason, and sensibility, for the fantastic, delusional, hopeful, and fanciful.

This is the Church warning that Catholics who vote for this can/will be excommunicated. It's not extortion. It's not a threat.


It is a threat. Do this or I'll do something bad to you has always been, and will always be, a threat.


It's common sense. The MPs need to choose between their opinions/party lines and their faith. The Church does not have to change it's policy for the secular system.

The Church also needs to keep it's nose out of politics. Something that it has been historically unable to do so. So have their tax exempt status revoked. They answer to the Vatican, which is essentially a government in itself. There should be no reason why they get to run around tax free.

They want to meddle in governments, well, let them pay their dues first. Otherwise, they should shut their mouths.

Sounds like something that should've been considered *before* extending tax-exempt status. :p The right to exclude people from a church who don't belong due to differing beliefs is always going to be there, after all.

Bah, so a mistake was made, doesn't mean you can't rectify it now. You want to influence the government while living on its land, then you should pay your taxes like everyone else.