NationStates Jolt Archive

I was a jazz musician for a while. Not a really successful one, but I generated income from my playing.

One thing that NEVER EVER happened was me paying the venue for the 'privilige' of playing in their establishment.

My brother is a rocker, and from my days in the record store, I knew a lot of other rockers. I would hear about things ranging from them having to buy and then sell themselves a block of tickets, to straight up paying for the stage time. None of these bands got a cut of the cover (unless they sold the tickets for more than they bought them for), nor a take from the bar.

The bar/venues seem to be coming out like fucking bandits. What the hell is up with that? I understand the whole "Lotta people knocking on the door" thing that lowers the take, to get my job I had to do it for free first. Even as it is, I get paid very little mostly because there are so many people willing to do it, demeaning as it is.

But seriously? The venue is getting it at both ends, the entertainment, the draw, is paying them and then so are the fans. How did things get this way, and why on earth would bands put up with this nonsense?

Anyone heard of things like band collectives that have their own venue, fuck the clubs? Alternatives? I mean, even when my brother plays The Whiskey in LA he still has to buy a ticket block, and he's in Sac. (His band rented a 'party bus' to haul fans down for the show, which was clever I thought.)

Solutions? Ways around it? Bitching that agrees? Defending the clubs?

it's been interesting finding non-club gigs, since my kids can't get into clubs anyway........

we have had luck at teenager type hang-outs, bowling alleys, fairs, etc.

it's probably not the best way to get into the scene, but we have a local following (even if most of them are under 15)

it's been interesting finding non-club gigs, since my kids can't get into clubs anyway........

we have had luck at teenager type hang-outs, bowling alleys, fairs, etc.

it's probably not the best way to get into the scene, but we have a local following (even if most of them are under 15)

Do you have to pay the venue?

Do you have to pay the venue?

never. The fair asked us to pay for stage time once, and I told them we don't pay to play, so they hung up, and called me back later in the week with a smaller stage that was free.

When we play fairs and such we mostly make money off CD's and stuff, since nobody really pays to hear us play.

At the bowling alley they pay us $100 and we get tips, and we can sell our CD's

other places vary sometimes we don't get paid at all, but we get to play and it's fun.

never. The fair asked us to pay for stage time once, and I told them we don't pay to play, so they hung up, and called me back later in the week with a smaller stage that was free.

When we play fairs and such we mostly make money off CD's and stuff, since nobody really pays to hear us play.

At the bowling alley they pay us $100 and we get tips, and we can sell our CD's

other places vary sometimes we don't get paid at all, but we get to play and it's fun.

Good on you for refusing the 'pay to play' scheme (I wanted to say 'scam' but I'm waiting for someone to come in and defend it, so I won't go overboard on it yet).

My brother seems to do alright, his band has a fund that pays for thier studio time and tours and what not instead of it coming out of pocket from the members, but that pay to play drives me nuts.

Good on you for refusing the 'pay to play' scheme (I wanted to say 'scam' but I'm waiting for someone to come in and defend it, so I won't go overboard on it yet).

My brother seems to do alright, his band has a fund that pays for thier studio time and tours and what not instead of it coming out of pocket from the members, but that pay to play drives me nuts.

we are basically breaking even on CD sales.....it's just enough to pay for studio time, drum sticks and guitar strings.

we are having fun though, and it's a family thing, I mean what other family do you know that gets to go out and play rock music together? ;)

One side of my family owns a good-sized bar. Musicians are paid something like $100 for a couple hours, can sell all the CDs they like, free drinks and dinner, etc. Not exactly high-paying, but they get a good local group of musicians.

Me, I'd like to perform, but I don't know anyone else who plays instruments. :p I was tempted to bust out the horn and try for some loose change when my flight was delayed 4 hours at O'Hare Airport, but I decided against it.

we are basically breaking even on CD sales.....it's just enough to pay for studio time, drum sticks and guitar strings.
About what my brother manages.

we are having fun though, and it's a family thing, I mean what other family do you know that gets to go out and play rock music together? ;)
Do you drive around in [url=http://204.50.24.183/bewitched/1164mg/daveranch4.jpg]this thing?

One side of my family owns a good-sized bar. Musicians are paid something like $100 for a couple hours, can sell all the CDs they like, free drinks and dinner, etc. Not exactly high-paying, but they get a good local group of musicians.

Me, I'd like to perform, but I don't know anyone else who plays instruments. :p I was tempted to bust out the horn and try for some loose change when my flight was delayed 4 hours at O'Hare Airport, but I decided against it.
Thats fair, it seems. I'm not saying bands should be able to get rich off small venues. But small venues shouldn't be getting rich off struggling bands, either, unless it's a little more symbiotic.

About what my brother manages.
;)


Do you drive around in [url=http://204.50.24.183/bewitched/1164mg/daveranch4.jpg]this thing?

I wish.

We borrow one of these from the church

http://www.viptransports.com/vanEXTlarge.jpg

Well, since you're hesitant to do it just yet, I will. Pay to play is a scam, and I don't see any defense for it. If a band is so bad that they're going to drive customers away, then you as a club owner need to simply tell them no thanks, and find someone better. I can understand the not paying them at all bit--it's not the best situation, but it's better than nothing, especially if the band can make a few bucks by passing the hat or selling stuff--but pay to play is just bullshit.

We borrow one of these from the church

http://www.viptransports.com/vanEXTlarge.jpg

God, I feel like half my life these days is spent driving a pass-van. I even say it in that pseudo-jargon way, "pass-van." Even sadder, I have opinions on which the better one is, the Ford or the Chevy (no one ever rents a Sprinter from Dodge...Christ, I even know what it's called...) (Chevy, by the way.)

I also, sadly, have an opinion about minivans...man am I going to be happy to move up crew positions and have some other poor shlop drive me around in those things...

God, I feel like half my life these days is spent driving a pass-van. I even say it in that pseudo-jargon way, "pass-van." Even sadder, I have opinions on which the better one is, the Ford or the Chevy (no one ever rents a Sprinter from Dodge...Christ, I even know what it's called...) (Chevy, by the way.)
We have both at work. Chevy blows the Fords away. Not a Dodge on site either.

Well, since you're hesitant to do it just yet, I will. Pay to play is a scam, and I don't see any defense for it. If a band is so bad that they're going to drive customers away, then you as a club owner need to simply tell them no thanks, and find someone better. I can understand the not paying them at all bit--it's not the best situation, but it's better than nothing, especially if the band can make a few bucks by passing the hat or selling stuff--but pay to play is just bullshit.

This is pretty much my feeling, I just wanted to be as fair as possible. If the band is bad, don't book them-tell 'em to practice some more, work on their shit and come back. But basicly telling them, "Hey, give me hundred bucks (or more!) and go fill my bar with paying customers" smacks of so much bullshit to me.

We have both at work. Chevy blows the Fords away. Not a Dodge on site either.

Fords are just not that good. I have yet to get in one of any kind and not gone, "What the hell?" If Quality is Job 1, I'm afraid of what Job 2 is...

Let us not get confused here between pay-to-play and having to pay for hire of a venue, PA equipment, a sound op and so on. The two are very different things.

I despise the former, but the latter is how I earn my daily crust.

Fords are just not that good. I have yet to get in one of any kind and not gone, "What the hell?" If Quality is Job 1, I'm afraid of what Job 2 is...
Unfortunately, my companies fleet of trucks is almost entirely Ford F350s (Foremen and higher are allowed to pick what they get when they get a new vehicle). They suck. They are totally gutless, and the ride is terrible. The Chevy's (I got to drive the superintendent's truck once) are much better. More torque, and you don't piss blood after five minutes of driving. I am quite envious of all the other companies on site that get to drive Chevys Dodges, or even go halfers on a truck (you pick the truck, but have to log X many hours on it).

Let us not get confused here between pay-to-play and having to pay for hire of a venue, PA equipment, a sound op and so on. The two are very different things.

I despise the former, but the latter is how I earn my daily crust.

Well, absolutely, if you're using someone, that someone needs to get paid just like anyone else.

Frankly, if it was upfront-you are renting the venue and the event is yours, that's one thing. But paying to play in someones bar, thats ridiculous.

I won't defend the pay to play scam for established local bands. Once a band has it's feet on the floor, unless it is opening for a bigger group, it should be being payed for it's time. For starting bands, and places that get small crowds, or draw in small crowds because of genre, it makes some sense. It gives those bands a chance for exposure, and, at that level, that's more important.

I won't defend the pay to play scam for established local bands. Once a band has it's feet on the floor, unless it is opening for a bigger group, it should be being payed for it's time. For starting bands, and places that get small crowds, or draw in small crowds because of genre, it makes some sense. It gives those bands a chance for exposure, and, at that level, that's more important.

I don't really buy that, I think thats taking advantage of new bands. A live band, even an unestablished band, is a draw for the club/bar. It's a reason to go, and they shouldn't be paying for the privilege of being a draw.

If it's a small venue and can't afford established bands then not paying a new band, so their helping each other out, is as bad as it should get. But if you're paying to play you should be renting the venue and you should be calling the shots, not paying for the privilege of being an attraction for the bar/club.

It goes back to when I was playing. I was part of the atmosphere. Not many people were coming to see me play, but they were coming knowing that someone was going to be playing, and that was worth the money I got from the owner. More people, if we're going to be honest, come to see a rock band, why shouldn't they get the same deal I managed?

I don't really buy that, I think thats taking advantage of new bands. A live band, even an unestablished band, is a draw for the club/bar. It's a reason to go, and they shouldn't be paying for the privilege of being a draw.

If it's a small venue and can't afford established bands then not paying a new band, so their helping each other out, is as bad as it should get. But if you're paying to play you should be renting the venue and you should be calling the shots, not paying for the privilege of being an attraction for the bar/club.

It goes back to when I was playing. I was part of the atmosphere. Not many people were coming to see me play, but they were coming knowing that someone was going to be playing, and that was worth the money I got from the owner. More people, if we're going to be honest, come to see a rock band, why shouldn't they get the same deal I managed?

Fuck if I know. I was just trying to take the position to add some more depth to the discussion. At any rate, for me, I see a lot more value in getting my name out by playing a show than I do in the hundred-someodd dollars I might make at a good show. If by not being payed, I can drive the price down, I benefit, right now. Similarly, I'm willing to lose money to open for a bigger band, because that also gives me more exposure.

I agree that it's only fair to pay someone for their work, but I also see that the most valuable thing for me right now is not making a hundred bucks for a show, it's getting press and getting attention from that show.

Fuck if I know. I was just trying to take the position to add some more depth to the discussion. At any rate, for me, I see a lot more value in getting my name out by playing a show than I do in the hundred-someodd dollars I might make at a good show. If by not being payed, I can drive the price down, I benefit, right now. Similarly, I'm willing to lose money to open for a bigger band, because that also gives me more exposure.

I agree that it's only fair to pay someone for their work, but I also see that the most valuable thing for me right now is not making a hundred bucks for a show, it's getting press and getting attention from that show.
That's an advocacy for the band to not get paid, and I can see that (though it is still a tad exploitive, but in cases where it's a small venue that doesn't really have the money or something-in that way I can see it as an exchange, you're helping the bar and the bar is helping you. But the band shouldn't be paying the bar's bills (except by bringing in paying costumers).

I think new bands get so starry eyed that they've allowed themselves to be exploited. Again, I'm not saying that playing these smaller venues should be making bands rich-but paying dues shouldn't be a literal thing.

That's an advocacy for the band to not get paid, and I can see that (though it is still a tad exploitive, but in cases where it's a small venue that doesn't really have the money or something-in that way I can see it as an exchange, you're helping the bar and the bar is helping you. But the band shouldn't be paying the bar's bills (except by bringing in paying costumers).

I think new bands get so starry eyed that they've allowed themselves to be exploited. Again, I'm not saying that playing these smaller venues should be making bands rich-but paying dues shouldn't be a literal thing.

I agree. I've never played a bar, per se, because it's hard to get an all ages show at a bar (and, being as how getting over 21 shows is impossible for me, I don't get a choice), but a lot of local venues do make younger bands sell tickets if we're opening for another group. The band I was in last opened for an okay local group once, and even then, we had to sell some tickets. Opening for out-of-town bands is even more difficult. Most local bands just go for a break-even on those, because, once again, getting a bigger audience is more important.

One of the best things for local bands, however, is that the local youth centers all have stages, and they do a much better job of making sure everyone gets to play and everyone gets a cut.

I'm a young, budding musician myself.
I live in WA state, in college. Me and a friend of mine are slowly putting a Metal piece together. We're both guitarists, and both just shred away the 16th notes at 200+ bpm... you know, good old fasion death metal, complete with lyrics about... dead stuff.
He's graduating next spring though, and is probably going on to be some high-paid C++ Programmer, whereas I've only just finished my first year.
I figure in the long run I'll do solo shit with a backing band... dunno.

Any advice for making a living off of this stuff?

I'd like to start a band knowing so many people who are in bands and one friends band having the prospect of being signed thsi summer, but I really don't know how at all. I know a couple of people who play insturments, not very well and it'd be hard to get a place in any of the local venues because its the bands with the bigger followings that get stage time. Maybe I'll try at university. This pay to play stuff is bullshit however. The clubs are generating miney from the drinks they sell and in some cases the tickets so having the band pay for the privelage is ridicoulous.

I'm a young, budding musician myself.
I live in WA state, in college. Me and a friend of mine are slowly putting a Metal piece together. We're both guitarists, and both just shred away the 16th notes at 200+ bpm... you know, good old fasion death metal, complete with lyrics about... dead stuff.
He's graduating next spring though, and is probably going on to be some high-paid C++ Programmer, whereas I've only just finished my first year.
I figure in the long run I'll do solo shit with a backing band... dunno.

Any advice for making a living off of this stuff?

Yup. Relegate the death metal to the back burner and form a covers band playing Sweet Home Alabama/American Pie/Summer of '69.

Sad but true.

I jest somewhat, but the point is that a lot of people in bands fail to see that they are in the end just entertainers, and that what they are selling is entertainment. You'll have more chance of making a meagre living by whoring yourself as a cover band 5 nights a week and reserving your death metal art for the other two. You got to sell what the market wants.

Sure, some people do make a living off playing death metal, but even chaps like Bill Steer still work in factories five days a week so as to keep the wolf from the door.

I know a couple of people who play insturments, not very well and it'd be hard to get a place in any of the local venues because its the bands with the bigger followings that get stage time.

Go and talk to the promoters, give them a copy of your demo, be seen actively supporting their efforts, and you'd be surprised at how easy it can be to get a gig - that's my experience anyhow.

If not: hire out a venue yourself, book a sound engineer and ask one or two of the bigger local bands to play, and get your band to play the opening slot. Do some advertising till everyone who could even remotely care about the gig knows about it. Play the show, pay the venue and the sound engineer, then split whats left of the door takings between the bands. It ain't rocket science.

We normally get paid depending on how big the crowd is that we generate.

I was a jazz musician for a while. Not a really successful one, but I generated income from my playing.

One thing that NEVER EVER happened was me paying the venue for the 'privilige' of playing in their establishment.

My brother is a rocker, and from my days in the record store, I knew a lot of other rockers. I would hear about things ranging from them having to buy and then sell themselves a block of tickets, to straight up paying for the stage time. None of these bands got a cut of the cover (unless they sold the tickets for more than they bought them for), nor a take from the bar.

The bar/venues seem to be coming out like fucking bandits. What the hell is up with that? I understand the whole "Lotta people knocking on the door" thing that lowers the take, to get my job I had to do it for free first. Even as it is, I get paid very little mostly because there are so many people willing to do it, demeaning as it is.

But seriously? The venue is getting it at both ends, the entertainment, the draw, is paying them and then so are the fans. How did things get this way, and why on earth would bands put up with this nonsense?

Anyone heard of things like band collectives that have their own venue, fuck the clubs? Alternatives? I mean, even when my brother plays The Whiskey in LA he still has to buy a ticket block, and he's in Sac. (His band rented a 'party bus' to haul fans down for the show, which was clever I thought.)

Solutions? Ways around it? Bitching that agrees? Defending the clubs?

I'm really young (even though that didn't stop Andy Fraser) and I'm in a small suburb. No clubs unless I go into the city, and then I'd end up in a Boston band. Which could be a good thing, or a bad thing.

I'm a young, budding musician myself.
I live in WA state, in college. Me and a friend of mine are slowly putting a Metal piece together. We're both guitarists, and both just shred away the 16th notes at 200+ bpm... you know, good old fasion death metal, complete with lyrics about... dead stuff.
He's graduating next spring though, and is probably going on to be some high-paid C++ Programmer, whereas I've only just finished my first year.
I figure in the long run I'll do solo shit with a backing band... dunno.

Any advice for making a living off of this stuff?
This is the way my brother managed it, and he started off doing death metal. (Cookie Monster voice and everything)-

He took the time to really learn his instrument. I mean really learn it. He studied theory and learned the way it works.

He shed anyone who just wanked and surrounded himself by people who were serious about playing.

After he had gotten himself to a level of confidence and skill, he walked into a small music store, one of only two in a rich district, and bugged them until he got himself a teaching position. Now all the wannabe rockers could either learn from the old man in the other store or the hesher in the Maiden shirt.

His docket is so full that he has to turn students away.

He spends the bulk of every day with his guitar in his hands. He makes a decent amount of money (something like $50k a year) and has plenty of time for his band. He also picks up fill in gigs from time to time.

While he still has the stadium dreams, he took the idea of making music for a living seriously. Out serioused his big brother who everyone thought was going to do the same thing.
We normally get paid depending on how big the crowd is that we generate.
The way it should be.

I hate pay for play, but it my general vicinity of living it kind of makes sense.

You see, the vast majority of the musicians around are either tastelessly untalented and arrogant highschool students or midlife crisis sufferers who couldn't make the cut 30 years ago.

If anything, those people need to pay for me to listen to them. They really are that bad.

Also, the local venues are probably much different than other areas. It mainly consists of coffee shops, smaller establishments and the like. It's set up for background music not obnoxcious distractions.

This is the way my brother managed it, and he started off doing death metal. (Cookie Monster voice and everything)-

He took the time to really learn his instrument. I mean really learn it. He studied theory and learned the way it works.

He shed anyone who just wanked and surrounded himself by people who were serious about playing.

After he had gotten himself to a level of confidence and skill, he walked into a small music store, one of only two in a rich district, and bugged them until he got himself a teaching position. Now all the wannabe rockers could either learn from the old man in the other store or the hesher in the Maiden shirt.

His docket is so full that he has to turn students away.

He spends the bulk of every day with his guitar in his hands. He makes a decent amount of money (something like $50k a year) and has plenty of time for his band. He also picks up fill in gigs from time to time.

While he still has the stadium dreams, he took the idea of making music for a living seriously. Out serioused his big brother who everyone thought was going to do the same thing.

The way it should be.

Lessons are most certainly, definitely, the best way to pursue music and get consistent returns.

I like to do the show-offy kind of thing though, where I walk in to Guitar Center and play circles around everone else in the room. It gets good notice when all the pro's see some skinny white guy play slap (I play bass, not guitar).

In these situations I go in incredibly rude, but never rude TO people. See, the last time I went and did this I met the guy who played bass for Tina Turner and was a personal friend of Stanley Clarke (touring together!), got offered a club feature and recording session with this one other guy's band (I declined), and free merchandise from the store.

Extortion at its finest. Not really a way of living, but rather a preparation for such.:D

Lessons are most certainly, definitely, the best way to pursue music and get consistent returns.

I like to do the show-offy kind of thing though, where I walk in to Guitar Center and play circles around everone else in the room. It gets good notice when all the pro's see some skinny white guy play slap (I play bass, not guitar).

In these situations I go in incredibly rude, but never rude TO people. See, the last time I went and did this I met the guy who played bass for Tina Turner and was a personal friend of Stanley Clarke (touring together!), got offered a club feature and recording session with this one other guy's band (I declined), and free merchandise from the store.

Extortion at its finest. Not really a way of living, but rather a preparation for such.:D
Whenever I needed actual service at a music store I'd ask to try out their bari sax. Hardly anyone can or even bothers to get a sweet tone out that monster, so when I do suddenly I get the help I need. (thank you dick head sax instructor who wouldn't leave me alone until he improved my tone. I still hate that guy, but there's no getting around the fact that he was right)

Anyone heard of things like band collectives that have their own venue, fuck the clubs? Alternatives? I mean, even when my brother plays The Whiskey in LA he still has to buy a ticket block, and he's in Sac. (His band rented a 'party bus' to haul fans down for the show, which was clever I thought.)As far as alternatives go, an example of one is www.therobotoproject.org although it's just a local thing.

I'm not in a band, sadly, and I don't know the people there too well so I dunno exactly how it works, but it is an example of what you're talking about.

As far as alternatives go, an example of one is www.therobotoproject.org although it's just a local thing.

I'm not in a band, sadly, and I don't know the people there too well so I dunno exactly how it works, but it is an example of what you're talking about.

THIS is the kind of shit I'm talking about. There needs to be more things like this.

I keep wanting to start a collective for guerilla filmmakers, theater artists, artists and musicians. I wanted to center it around this abandoned movie theater, but I haven't the foggiest idea how to go about it.

I keep wanting to start a collective for guerilla filmmakers, theater artists, artists and musicians. I wanted to center it around this abandoned movie theater, but I haven't the foggiest idea how to go about it.


Been there, done that - pretty much.

Either network like a bastard with everybody who could care and then squat the fucker and fuck the man, or network like a bastard with everybody who could care, see about setting yourselves up as a charity or similar bureaucracy friendly organisation, and then fuck the man.

Been there, done that - pretty much.
Yeah, well-I didn't claim to be inventing the wheel...
See about setting yourselves up as a charity and go from there.

Might as well have told me to see about setting myself up as an astronaught. Don't know how to do either.

Not looking for lessons on the forum, either. It was just a passing mention.

Might as well have told me to see about setting myself up as an astronaught. Don't know how to do either.

Not looking for lessons on the forum, either. It was just a passing mention.

That's the joy of collectivism: you hook up with someone who knows these kind fo things, or has an aptitude for that kind of work, while you work away on what you're good at...

That's the joy of collectivism: you hook up with someone who knows these kind fo things, or has an aptitude for that kind of work, while you work away on what you're good at...

The trick is weeding those cats out from the ones building a rocket to Mars in their backyard.

THIS is the kind of shit I'm talking about. There needs to be more things like this.

I keep wanting to start a collective for guerilla filmmakers, theater artists, artists and musicians. I wanted to center it around this abandoned movie theater, but I haven't the foggiest idea how to go about it.

I'll join your collective, I was a script supervisor once, but mostly I have been a PA and craft service grunt.

The trick is weeding those cats out from the ones building a rocket to Mars in their backyard.

Association of Autonomous Astronauts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Autonomous_Astronauts)

...for a grass roots, community based space program.

I'll join your collective, I was a script supervisor once, but mostly I have been a PA and craft service grunt.
There's only a few problems with that-
First, you could be the collective...I've seen half of the stuff you've done. You wouldn't need me at all.

Second, we're in different states. We could form a collectives of collectives, which would be cool, but on a local level I'd need someone who is wwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more organized than me.

Third, with all you do already, wouldn't adding something require adding a 25th hour in the day?

Fourth...dear god am I tired of being a PA...time to move up positions, like 6 months ago...
Association of Autonomous Astronauts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Autonomous_Astronauts)

...for a grass roots, community based space program.

Quality

Association of Autonomous Astronauts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Autonomous_Astronauts)

...for a grass roots, community based space program.

Have they actually done anything even vaguely related to being an astronaut? Or is this just all another excuse to make puppets and bore people.

Have they actually done anything even vaguely related to being an astronaut? Or is this just all another excuse to make puppets and bore people.

Thinking they were actually aiming for outer space, rather than inner, would be missing the point entirely.

There's only a few problems with that-
First, you could be the collective...I've seen half of the stuff you've done. You wouldn't need me at all.
I totally need you and your various instruments of destruction.

Second, we're in different states. We could form a collectives of collectives, which would be cool, but on a local level I'd need someone who is wwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more organized than me.
we could start a world-wide collective.....it could all be web-based except for once a year when we all descend on towns for our film festival and convention......or I could move to CA.

Third, with all you do already, wouldn't adding something require adding a 25th hour in the day?
I am totally working on that.....I am up to 24.5...

Fourth...dear god am I tired of being a PA...time to move up positions, like 6 months ago...
it sucked ass. I didn't even get paid. I am never working with craft service again either, all people do is bitch "I didn't get a bagel", "why aren't there grapes today? there were grapes yesterday!"

I loved script supervisor, but it was a very uncomplicated film, and I was only doing it really for the credit and to snoop on hubby while he was acting.

Thinking they were actually aiming for outer space, rather than inner, would be missing the point entirely.

Just all puppets and boring people then.

You know what would be really cool: if a bunch of anarchists actually launched their own set of communications satellites.

Just all puppets and boring people then.

You know what would be really cool: if a bunch of anarchists actually launched their own set of communications satellites.

Ah, the literal rocket to mars. Nice to know there is one after talking about the figurative one all these years.