NationStates Jolt Archive

There are not enough servicemen and women to meet the demands placed on the UK armed forces by the situations in Afghanistan and Iraq, MPs have said.

The Commons public accounts committee said the overall shortfall in personnel stood at 5,850, or 3.2%, of full strength in April.

Numbers leaving early reached a 10-year peak in some areas, the report said.
More here, clicky clicky. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6263654.stm)

Well I'm not surprised by this. People don't want to sign up knowing that they'll be binned off to fight in another pointless war. I'm still at school and when I leave, I sure as hell won't be signing up. My dad thinks this is the right decision, and he's ex-army himself. I'd be willing to defend this country but all the recent conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia and Sierra Leone have had nothing to do with defending this country and everything to do with politicians being obsessed with their own legacy. Then there's the crap pay, crap conditions such as the closure of military hospitals, crap equipment, ect. Is it any wonder there are shortages?

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847540']SNIP


shortages of numbers isn't news, its pretty much the tradition of the British army

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847540']My dad thinks this is the right decision, and he's ex-army himself.

you should try it from what I've seen and done its good fun

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847540']I'd be willing to defend this country

cancel that, your talking like a would be war criminal and clearly have no idea what a modern army is

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847540']but all the recent conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia and Sierra Leone have had nothing to do with defending this country

are you honestly going to argue about the involvement in Bosnia? do you understand the concept of fighting over there so its not in your street?

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847540']Then there's the crap pay, crap conditions such as the closure of military hospitals, crap equipment, ect.

pay is fairly good compared to civilian life especially the two pay rises a year

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847540']Is it any wonder there are shortages?

there is only so many Welshmen :p

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847540']...

The OP makes me utterly LOL!
So much for professional armies.:p

I wanted to be in the Royal Navy for quite a while in my childhood. That was until I found out they don't accept people who suffer from red-green colourblindness. Anyway.

This is the fault of Blair's interventionist attitudes with regards to use of the military. Unilateral interventionist military policy leads to long-term engagements, where the direct benefits to the country are slim, and any indirect benefits are complex and lost upon the ordinary citizen and soldier.

Then basically the public perception is that our soldiers are getting attacked everyday, sometimes killed, for various intangible reasons not of direct benefit to the country, such as "upholding International peace". Bosnia and similiar peacekeeping ventures are perfect examples of this.

Young men and women do not want to get caught up in the next Iraq, a conflict that has not benefitted them or thier country one iota.

you should try it from what I've seen and done its good fun
Well I'm in the army cadets and I enjoy it. But the idea of getting killed in Iraq or Afghanistan doesn't seem like my idea of fun.

cancel that, your talking like a would be war criminal and clearly have no idea what a modern army is
'War criminal', what the hell are you on about? All I said was that I'd only be willing to fight to defend my country, not get dragged into other people's wars and fight for the glory of politicians.

are you honestly going to argue about the involvement in Bosnia? do you understand the concept of fighting over there so its not in your street?
You mean fighting in Bosnia to prevent the conflict from spilling over into Britain? Because as far as I know there was no indication whatsoever that it would have spilled over into Britain. It was never our fight.

you should try it from what I've seen and done its good fun

Fun? Fighting, risking one's own hide and killing people is FUN?:p
On a second thought, I get that is more fun when you kill people without risking your hide.


cancel that, your talking like a would be war criminal and clearly have no idea what a modern army is...that is a bunch of mercenaries.


are you honestly going to argue about the involvement in Bosnia? do you understand the concept of fighting over there so its not in your street?
Pray, now, explain HOW the Jugoslav secession wars would have taken the fight to Great Britain.

And don't give me some bullshit about Slobodan Milosevic being the new Hitler. He was a nationalist (and a moderate one, compared to the nationalists are in the Serb cabinet today) and a corrupt leader (like many, many leaders), but I don't think you can say he was a dictator, since at the time of the NATO attack against Serbia 40% of the serbian cities were ruled by the parties who were the opposition in the serbian parliament.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847633']
'War criminal', what the hell are you on about? All I said was that I'd only be willing to fight to defend my country, not get dragged into other people's wars and fight for the glory of politicians.


He doesn't agree to the standard definition of war criminal. He thinks that a 'war criminal' is someone who doesn't obey blindly the orders of the upper-ups.
:rolleyes: O tempora, o mores! Quo usque tandem abuteris patientia nostra?

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847633']Well I'm in the army cadets and I enjoy it. But the idea of getting killed in Iraq or Afghanistan doesn't seem like my idea of fun.

statistically war zones are safer than workplaces ;)

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847633']'War criminal', what the hell are you on about? All I said was that I'd only be willing to fight to defend my country, not get dragged into other people's wars and fight for the glory of politicians.

patriotism is the excuse of war criminals see: Nuremberg trials

and joining the army just to follow some Rambo–esque hoo hah about defending your country is ridicules

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847633']You mean fighting in Bosnia to prevent the conflict from spilling over into Britain? Because as far as I know there was no indication whatsoever that it would have spilled over into Britain. It was never our fight.

1) all wars affect nations welcome to the global economy and the lesson that should of been drummed into since childhood about Nazi Germany

2) protecting civilians is always worth it unless of course somehow you isolate British citizens from the human race

Fun? Fighting, risking one's own hide and killing people is FUN?:p

awww bless, do you realize how much time actually gets spent in combat?

...that is a bunch of mercenaries.

no mercenaries don't tend to have ideals they uphold or the will to work till they drop dead without any pay increase

Pray, now, explain HOW the Jugoslav secession wars would have taken the fight to Great Britain.

wars are contagious

And don't give me some bullshit about Slobodan Milosevic being the new Hitler

so committing war crimes in the name of some idealistic state isn't what Slobodan Milosevic did in your mind?

Whilst I applaud Call to Power's willingness to fight for globalist idealism, the reality is that many youths liable to join the British Armed Forces are not as globally minded. They couldn't really give two hoots whether such and such a dictator was spreading genocide, or protecting refugees or fighting in conflicts at the behest of international allies.

Many feel that if it won't directly affect them or thier country, they aren't prepared to die for it.

Many feel that if it won't directly affect them or thier country, they aren't prepared to die for it.

thats not what I see and hear, the guys I've met would jump (well not jump everyone knows there aren't many respawn points) at the chance to die for something right

then again finding sources to prove a certain mentality is always a pain...

patriotism is the excuse of war criminals see: Nuremberg trials
Just because war criminals use patriotim as an excuse don't mean that all patriots are war criminals or even potential war criminals.

and joining the army just to follow some Rambo–esque hoo hah about defending your country is ridicules
Nothing rambo-esque about what I'm saying. I don't take any glory in war, I'm just saying that I'd be willing to do what's necessary if my country was under attack.

all wars affect nations welcome to the global economy and the lesson that should of been drummed into since childhood about Nazi Germany
Not all wars do, plenty of wars have gone on throughout the twentieth century without really spreading to anyone. It depends on the circumstances of each conflict.

2) protecting civilians is always worth it unless of course somehow you isolate British citizens from the human race
Well what can I say, I'm just callous.

thats not what I see and hear, the guys I've met would jump (well not jump everyone knows there aren't many respawn points) at the chance to die for something right

then again finding sources to prove a certain mentality is always a pain...
No, they say they would jump in. When most people talk about how they want to stop a conflict, what they really mean is that they want to watch somebody else stop it on their behalf. If these people were really called up for that kind of thing, do you think they would be so willing to go out there and fight? They're the ones who are rambo-esque, not me.

thats not what I see and hear, the guys I've met would jump (well not jump everyone knows there aren't many respawn points) at the chance to die for something right

then again finding sources to prove a certain mentality is always a pain...

Hmm. You have a point. All I know is that many potential young recruits associate joining the British military with being sent over to Iraq. Which is overall, not an entirely popular conflict right now.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847728']Just because war criminals use patriotim as an excuse don't mean that all patriots are war criminals or even potential war criminals.

the willingness to do anything for a nation is the first step, next comes to order to massacre a village and so on

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847728']I'm just saying that I'd be willing to do what's necessary if my country was under attack.

even commit crimes against humanity? piss on the Geneva convention? become what your fighting?

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847728']Not all wars do, plenty of wars have gone on throughout the twentieth century without really spreading to anyone. It depends on the circumstances of each conflict.

no most wars of the 20th century where spurred by the cold wars and the proxy wars within it

all in all the 20th century wars where created by the wars of the centuries before e.g. WWI can be blamed on the aftermath of the Napoleonic wars

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847728']Well what can I say, I'm just callous.

then I prey you never find yourself in the military or any position of power at all (hopefully you won't vote either no doubt I'm looking a a future BNP member by your attitude)

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847728']what they really mean is that they want to watch somebody else stop it on their behalf.

no there is something called doing the right thing and sacrifice

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847728']If these people were really called up for that kind of thing, do you think they would be so willing to go out there and fight? They're the ones who are rambo-esque, not me.

no they have the balls to do whats right instead of living in some fantasy land where what happens around them doesn't affect them at all

Hmm. You have a point. All I know is that many potential young recruits associate joining the British military with being sent over to Iraq. Which is overall, not an entirely popular conflict right now.

odds are such attitudes are more common in the basic grunt walking through the recruitment door if at all, there is allot of emphasis put into recruits during training about doing whats right and the pillars of honor, courage, commitment and that other one which I always forget :p

the willingness to do anything for a nation is the first step, next comes to order to massacre a village and so on
I don't think patriotism means unquestioning obedience. I can see the difference between fighting for my country and fighting for my government.

then I prey you never find yourself in the military or any position of power at all (hopefully you won't vote either no doubt I'm looking a a future BNP member by your attitude)
Just because I admit that I have no desire to get into other people's wars doesn't make me a BNP supporter. The only difference between me and most other people is that I can see what sort of person I am. Like most people, conflicts in some far flung part of the world don't get to me like one on my own doorstep.

no there is something called doing the right thing and sacrifice

no they have the balls to do whats right instead of living in some fantasy land where what happens around them doesn't affect them at all
And you really think they would keep their word? I'd have thought that someone who's been on this world a bit longer than me would realise that people often say things and make promises they don't keep. Particularly when they promise that they'd do something which they cannot forsee themselves ever being called up to do (Such as fighting in a war). I'm not the one living in fantasy land here.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847878']I don't think patriotism means unquestioning obedience.

so the will to do anything for a line in the dirt isn't unquestioning obedience?

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847878']I can see the difference between fighting for my country and fighting for my government.

I don't seeing as how a country is an idea created by a government

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847878']Just because I admit that I have no desire to get into other people's wars doesn't make me a BNP supporter.

the blinding will to isolate yourself from the rest of the planet makes you the perfect sheep for such ideals

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847878']The only difference between me and most other people is that I can see what sort of person I am.

good acceptance is the first step

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847878']Like most people, conflicts in some far flung part of the world don't get to me like one on my own doorstep.

conflicts in some "far flung part of the world" (yeah those areas exist:rolleyes:) have a domino affect and a bad habit of biting you in the arse à la Pearl harbor

http://www.johndclare.net/images/Leaning.jpg

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847878']And you really think they would keep their word?

yes, people have a habit of keeping there ideals and fighting for them without the need to be forced to do so for example the Spanish civil war, Iran-Iraq war, Soviet-Afghan war etc

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12847878']I'd have thought that someone who's been on this world a bit longer than me would realise that people often say things and make promises they don't keep.

yeah like that band of "patriots" who say they will do anything to defend there country

so the will to do anything for a line in the dirt isn't unquestioning obedience?



Not if you are only protecting everything behind that line because you love everything behind that line and believe it is worthy of defence

thats not what I see and hear, the guys I've met would jump (well not jump everyone knows there aren't many respawn points) at the chance to die for something right


So if there's one thing we've learnt today it's that if you meet CTP you tend to want to die.

Oh and that he seems to think patriotism removes the ability to think for yourselve sticking you in the "just following orders" mentality and turning you into a war criminal.

thats not what I see and hear, the guys I've met would jump (well not jump everyone knows there aren't many respawn points) at the chance to die for something right

then again finding sources to prove a certain mentality is always a pain...

Those are the kind of guys I don’t want in my rifle company. I want guys around me who are smart, aggressive professionals and strong willed, who work hard for the team, but not looking to get killed doing something pointlessly heroic and get other people around them killed. I’m not interested in being in the Western equivalent of a martyr’s brigade thank you very much.

I can understand Befriend Chestnuts perspective. If your government is involved in wars that you yourself believe your country shouldn’t be in, it’s hypocrisy for you to join the military knowing you’ll be sent there. On the other hand, the military, particularly the infantry, presents the opportunity of brotherhood like nothing else out there in life.

Not if you are only protecting everything behind that line because you love everything behind that line and believe it is worthy of defence

things are confined to imaginary lines though are they

So if there's one thing we've learnt today it's that if you meet CTP you tend to want to die.

oooh no people are willing to die for causes, how inhuman! :rolleyes:

Oh and that he seems to think patriotism removes the ability to think for yourselve sticking you in the "just following orders" mentality and turning you into a war criminal.

if you love your country over anything else then what does that mean for silly things like international law and humanity

its not that patriotism makes you a war criminal its the fact that it allows a loss of humanity and a them vs. us way of thinking

Those are the kind of guys I don’t want in my rifle company.

weird I want people who have courage and commitment funny how you seem to think that these traits don't fit into teamwork

things are confined to imaginary lines though are they


Government structures, etc are

if you love your country over anything else then what does that mean for silly things like international law and humanity

its not that patriotism makes you a war criminal its the fact that it allows a loss of humanity and a them vs. us way of thinking


Who said anything about loving it over anything else?

Patriotism is a feeling of love and devotion to one's own homeland (patria, the land of one's fathers). This article surveys the concept of patriotism from the viewpoints of history, politics, ethics, and biology.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism

Government structures, etc are

those are ideals, try again

Who said anything about loving it over anything else?

you must have a different understanding of love and devotion to me, you see if your getting off to the flag then nifty little things can be done like: calling something anti-[insert national] so its ignored and hated or proclaiming things like cold showers as threats to the nation

but of course you will already be thinking up the excuse that there is somehow a difference and that miraculously patriotism isn't a tool invented by whatever Kingdom your area happened to spur from

I was going to say something, but I think Call to Power's got it all covered.

Just one thing, though, about the line. Why would you only love everything behind the line? Why would you not love everything beyond it as well?

I started the application process to join the MOD Army but the doctor wouldn't complete my forms, situation sort of changed a bit.. now I'm likely attending university in the fall living in a double dorm. Would have been a long shot flying in from Canada etc.. how different life might have been. NO saying if I would have even been eligible. I'm not even as far as I know eligible for joining the Canadain MOD due to having two summary convictions (Assault and trespassing which I still don't really agree with) if theyre still there one more year until I can get that sealed what little that would do. I'm generally a pacifist anyway.

It's only going to get heavier if there isn't a backout unless there is just a 10 year + war in the middle east...... I'm guessing if Hilary etc.. gets in in the US and Canada supports the 2009 withdrawl from Afganastan etc.. and NATO goes along with it Britain would oddly be in a very odd position.. I'm guessing there will be stragling for years to come but I'm guessing proping up the newly created bodies and having the old gaurd die off to a younger generation who only new obediance to the occupiers will create two distinct groups.

It is really hard to see what the point of all this is or what it really accomplished.. 5 years 6 years 20-30-60-1000-1 million years later. weird world