NationStates Jolt Archive

This behavior is utterly unbelievable. The gall of people to do this to someone.

As stabbing victim LaShanda Calloway lay dying on the floor of a Wichita convenience store, five shoppers stepped over her. One of the shoppers stopped to take a picture of Calloway with a cell phone.

http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003607207

Happy 4th of July. Oh the joy of it.

Modern times. People are caring bout things less and less these days. Soon no-one will care that no-one cares. Buddhist heaven.

Kansas will be Kansas...

Sarcastic responses aside, that is *truly* appalling. I don't see how anyone can find this not hard to believe.

The best I can come up with is that they couldn't see she was injured and thought she was, I don't know, drunk or on drugs.

But of course nobody would have taken a pic with their phone if that had been the case, so... :/

Kansas will be Kansas...

Not like there's any history there or anything ... :(

Someone lies bleeding on the ground and people walk by?


Society fails.

Who has time to be a hero, anymore?

Places to go, people to see...

Is it so hard to call "911"? :rolleyes:

Is it so hard to call "911"? :rolleyes:

Apparently its easier to bring up the camera function on your cell phone.

This behavior is utterly unbelievable. The gall of people to do this to someone.



http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003607207

Happy 4th of July. Oh the joy of it.

Uh...what the fuck?

I live in Salford, Greater Manchester and despite how rough the area can be, I KNOW that that would NEVER happen here. It's got nothing to do with any community spirit or having other things to deal with, it's a basic sense of compassion for someone who is injured.

Granted most people probably would do fuck all about a fight, or someone actually in the process of being beaten up due to fear, but if someone saw someone else lying on the floor I know they'd help in this city (this whole country in fact I'm sure).

I'm one of the people who's been helped.

Bystander mentality. I learned all about it in psychology and sociology in university.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

Even more appalling example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese

---

Of course, if you have a cell phone and don't call 911 to help someone at the very least, you're "life unworthy of life" and should be summarily executed. Hopefully whoever took those pictures will be beaten to death, stabbed, raped, or generally murdered and no one will care. Hell, I hope that when that happens to our callous photographer the bystanders sit back and laugh.

In future, I think that the bystander effect and elementary sociology should become required subjects of study in high school.

Who has time to be a hero, anymore?

Places to go, people to see...

It's not about being a hero, it's about not being an absolute twat. It's about basic compassion and basic decency. Does the US still have any left?

What's more...

In the article, the DA is considering the possibility of charging the shoppers for this, but there's currently no laws that covers this kind of trangression. What's next? Legal action to force people to be considerate and kind?

I mean, I think it's a good thing that these people should be punished for their actions. The girl would probably still be alive if that dumbfuck cell phone girl dialed 911, or the other shoppers asked the clerk to call 911 the instant they saw the girl bleeding on the floor of the store.

But still- has it gotten this bad that we might have to threaten legal action, jail time, or what have you to slap some sense into these kinds of apathetic people?

Bassham said the district attorney’s office would decide whether any of the shoppers could be charged.

“If the Police Department wants to present additional charges, we will look at that,” said Georgia Cole, a spokeswoman for District Attorney Nola Foulston.

It was uncertain what law, if any, would apply. A Kansas statute for failure to render aid refers only to victims of car accidents.

I wonder if there is more to it than described in the story. It's very scant on details, so I don't really know what to say about it.

Glad to see this community cares about the welfare of each other.

Bystander mentality. I learned all about it in psychology and sociology in university.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

Even more appalling example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese

---

Of course, if you have a cell phone and don't call 911 to help someone at the very least, you're "life unworthy of life" and should be summarily executed. Hopefully whoever took those pictures will be beaten to death, stabbed, raped, or generally murdered and no one will care. Hell, I hope that when that happens to our callous photographer the bystanders sit back and laugh.

In future, I think that the bystander effect and elementary sociology should become required subjects of study in high school.

QFT.

I'm not hoping something bad happens to them, because technically, they haven't done anything.

But if they do get stabbed or are otherwise near death in a situation requiring medical attention, it would be ironic if somebody showed them that store video...

And then walked away, laughing.

I heard of a case similar to this some time ago. Back in early May Edith Rodriguez died of a ruptured colon in the King-Harbor hospital in LA, after 45 minutes of vomiting up blood...in the waiting room

Here's the ABC story: http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3273239&page=1

I live in Salford, Greater Manchester and despite how rough the area can be, I KNOW that that would NEVER happen here. It's got nothing to do with any community spirit or having other things to deal with, it's a basic sense of compassion for someone who is injured.

Granted most people probably would do fuck all about a fight, or someone actually in the process of being beaten up due to fear, but if someone saw someone else lying on the floor I know they'd help in this city (this whole country in fact I'm sure).

I'm one of the people who's been helped.

It's not a matter of whether you live in the UK or US. We're not heartless, compassion-less drones, you know. Anywhere in the US, you KNOW people will help. Basic humanity. That's why this is so shocking.

It's not about being a hero, it's about not being an absolute twat. It's about basic compassion and basic decency. Does the US still have any left?

Hey, this is disgusting and appalling, but don't paint ALL of us with that brush of yours. There's 300 million of us and you're judging all of us on the basis of five morons from Kansas? That's like saying that everyone in England is a Burberry-wearing chav happy-slapping old ladies. And someone who was NOT a moron DID call 911...

It took about two minutes for someone to call 911 to report the crime, he said.
If you were in the back of the store, and you weren't a moron, it might have taken two minutes to see what was happening and call.


I heard of a case similar to this some time ago. Back in early May Edith Rodriguez died of a ruptured colon in the King-Harbor hospital in LA, after 45 minutes of vomiting up blood...in the waiting room

Here's the ABC story: http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3273239&page=1

Except that there, bystanders WERE calling 911 -- from the emergency room -- because the STAFF did nothing to aid her, and the 911 operator said they could do nothing because she was already IN a hospital.

* 'Faith in Humanity meter' plummets*

:(

What's more...

In the article, the DA is considering the possibility of charging the shoppers for this, but there's currently no laws that covers this kind of trangression. What's next? Legal action to force people to be considerate and kind?

I mean, I think it's a good thing that these people should be punished for their actions. The girl would probably still be alive if that dumbfuck cell phone girl dialed 911, or the other shoppers asked the clerk to call 911 the instant they saw the girl bleeding on the floor of the store.

But still- has it gotten this bad that we might have to threaten legal action, jail time, or what have you to slap some sense into these kinds of apathetic people?

I'm no lawyer, but would failing to help somebody who subsequently died fall under negligent homicide?

Appalling, sure, but not unbelievable.

A naked, bleeding rape victim was ignored by half a restaurant full of people until they realized she wouldn't leave. Then they called the police to get rid of her... Sick fuckers one and all.

I've been staggering around looking for an ambulance a couple of times myself, and seriously.. Most people just head the other way when a dazed, bleeding guy asks them to call an ambulance on their mobile. Some actually run for it.

It's not an American thing, and it's nothing to do with urban living. I don't know why average people are spineless sacks of shit, but my personal theory is that they just are. Pity the fucked up excuses for human beings. Nothing else to do.

Appalling, sure, but not unbelievable.

A naked, bleeding rape victim was ignored by half a restaurant full of people until they realized she wouldn't leave. Then they called the police to get rid of her... Sick fuckers one and all.

I've been staggering around looking for an ambulance a couple of times myself, and seriously.. Most people just head the other way when a dazed, bleeding guy asks them to call an ambulance on their mobile. Some actually run for it.

It's not an American thing, and it's nothing to do with urban living. I don't know why average people are spineless sacks of shit, but my personal theory is that they just are. Pity the fucked up excuses for human beings. Nothing else to do.

Where and when did this rape victim being ignored happen? Also was there a story done on it or was it a personal witnessing experience?

Appalling, sure, but not unbelievable.

A naked, bleeding rape victim was ignored by half a restaurant full of people until they realized she wouldn't leave. Then they called the police to get rid of her... Sick fuckers one and all.

When was this? And where?

I've been staggering around looking for an ambulance a couple of times myself, and seriously.. Most people just head the other way when a dazed, bleeding guy asks them to call an ambulance on their mobile. Some actually run for it.

Damn. I'm pretty positive I wouldn't run, or turn a blind eye. At least, I hope wouldn't. I don't know if I'd be able to live with myself if I did...

Except that there, bystanders WERE calling 911 -- from the emergency room -- because the STAFF did nothing to aid her, and the 911 operator said they could do nothing because she was already IN a hospital.

While indeed a good that bystanders were willing to help, it says something when total strangers care more about the dying lady on the floor than trained medical professionals.

And that something isn't good...

I mean...the only member of the hospital staff who paid her any mind was the janitor who cleaned up the blood around her.

Bystander effect, etc., have already been mentioned. But yeah, the more people around, the less likely a person is to help someone in need. Why? They feel less responsible (shared responsibility. The responsibility doesn't go down, but the people sharing it goes up, so less responsibility per person...).

And yes, some people just can't be bothered because they are clearly most important. And whatever they are doing cannot wait.
And others are just too scared.

Similization, you may have looked like you were crazy or something and scared the people. That said, if you were asking for help, you'd think they'd have been willing to call and allow the medical professionals to decide if it's a case of medical badness vs. insanity....
I feel for you. :(

Was in Copenhagen. On the central train station, no less. I've been trying to find a news article about it, but it was a few years ago and I'm drawing a blank. Seems to be plenty of people still talking about it in various debates around the web though. If any of you have access to a proper news database, it shouldn't be that hard to find.Damn. I'm pretty positive I wouldn't run, or turn a blind eye. At least, I hope wouldn't. I don't know if I'd be able to live with myself if I did...I hope not, but I suppose it has to be said that I'm one of those evil, homicidal punkers, so I suppose I'm mindnumbingly terrible to behold even when I'm covered in blood and can't walk right... Yeh, maybe not.

But my point was, I don't know what this 'bystander effect' is. I don't think there's anything new about it. People have always treated each other like shit. I'm absolutely certain it doesn't have anything to do with urban living or Americans, or any other random silly excuse. I think people are just fucking cowards, and will tell themselves whatever excuse they need to avoid getting dragged into something unpleasant - whether it's burning a witch or watching a girl get dragged screaming down a busy street a Saturday evening by three men [Yups. That really happened too].

Maybe it's self preservation. Maybe it just offends people's sense of aesthetics. I don't know. But in a country with states, coppers and other useless shit like that, I can't think of any reason not to reward braindead bystanders with as slow and painful a demise as medical science can possibly achieve. OK, a fine will do, but some people seriously need a kick in the ass.

Yes, I'm grumpy. Coffee, Painkillers, Where Art Thou?

Bystander mentality. I learned all about it in psychology and sociology in university.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect


Thank you. (Or, "QFT" if anyone prefers.). ;)

This phenomenon is very real, in my experience - I basically had to be yelled at by the cop just to know what my name was, after my car was totalled while I was idling in traffic by a drunk driver doing about 40+ MPH, and the other bystanders weren't much help, either. I wasn't terribly injured, but it was definitely in my best interest to co-operate and get everyone's information, but I was more or less useless for a good while. I've seen this a few times at a few different places, and while I couldn't say it was absolutely the case with the woman who was stabbed, I would believe it.

As for blaming Kansas, that's silly. They're some of the more friendly and courteous people I've met, out there - a bit more religious on average I'm sure, but that's not usually a cause of callous behavior, and is often responsible for the opposite.

Happy 4th of July. Oh the joy of it.

The stabbing happened on the 23rd of last month, according to the article. Not that you were interested in anything more than a cynical comment on the holiday, I'm sure, but I thought I'd note it. ;)

Happy Fourth to everyone else, though. :fluffle:

To be honest, I can understand the "Bystander Problem" when someone is hurt. Probably a gash, a bad cut, a sprained ankle, a broken bone or two, etc. as well as in cases where violence is involved (witnessing someone being attacked by a gang with guns or knives).

However, its utterly inexcusable for a "Bystander Syndrome" excuse to be used when someone's life is at stake like the woman in the grocery store or the colon lady in the hospital. I mean, come on! All it takes is a quick 911 call and say a quick phrase "Someone is dying at (insert the caller's location). Send help immediately!"- all this would take only 30 seconds tops. Then the person can either lend further help to the victim or go home or whatever. Is that too much to ask, really?

As someone mentioned earlier about negligent homicide. I think it should be modified to cover these cases like in the grocery and hospital, and then be made federal law. That way, people like the cell phone girl and the neligient hospital staff would be prosecuted without question, and set an example that you don't walk away when someone's life is in danger (and your life is not).

Is it so hard to call "911"? :rolleyes:

not if your too busy taking a picture.

utterly deplorable and disgusting.

As someone mentioned earlier about negligent homicide. I think it should be modified to cover these cases like in the grocery and hospital, and then be made federal law. That way, people like the cell phone girl and the neligient hospital staff would be prosecuted without question, and set an example that you don't walk away when someone's life is in danger (and your life is not).If you'd seen especially the US responses to France holding coppers responsible for just that kind of behaviour, I don't think you'd hold out much hope of such legislation passing.

But you could always move to France, I guess.

I think that the person with the Cellphone can be charged with criminal neglect.

If you'd seen especially the US responses to France holding coppers responsible for just that kind of behaviour, I don't think you'd hold out much hope of such legislation passing.

But you could always move to France, I guess.

It might pass if enough legislators suffer this firsthand, either to themselves, to a loved one, a family member, a friend, or a co-worker. Experience does change one's outlook.

Failing that, we could always spread news like this all over. I for one will spread the news about the grocery woman and the hospital victim to everybody I know. Then hopefully the people I tell will be so disgusted that they'd spread the word to their friends, and so on. Maybe that can make this "Neligient Homicide" law idea passing work?

At least in the case of the waste of oxygen that took the cell phone pictures, if not the others who simply stepped over the victim, this goes beyond the simple "bystander effect". This is more like the way that people get entertainment from explosions and car crashes. What kind of a sick fuck takes a picture like that?

You know, I am not surprised by this. I know people tend to believe that others used to be more compassionate overall, but that was simply not the case. This is actually typical human behavior: it is atypical for people to care all that much.

And it makes sense too, from a biological standpoint, especially considering how many of us there are. We're in no danger of dying from extinction, so why care about the life of one human?

Does the US still have any left?

The fact that you even need ask that proves how uneducated you are.

I'm no lawyer, but would failing to help somebody who subsequently died fall under negligent homicide?

I am a lawyer, and the answer is no.

Both in tort and in criminal law, the law imposes no duty on somebody to help another person. There is only a duty to come to somebody's aid in three situations:
1) special relationship between the defendant and the victim (parental, school teacher, spousal, or the some type of contractual relationship)
2) the defendant created the peril
3) the defendant began to help the victim but abandoned it (I don't remember from law school but this may only be the case if the defendant's efforts left the victim in a situation where no other potential rescuer could help)

Basically, the rationale is that people are free to do whatever they want so long as they don't harm other people. I think there is a bit of slippery-slope rationale too: Should the law just make people call 911 or should the law make people provide first aid?

Keep in mind that the law should not impose morality. Despite the efforts of some overzealous segments of our society, the law should only provide order and freedom of the citizenry. Telling somebody you must save someone else b/c it's "the right thing to do" is not the proper realm of the law. I personally think that the behavior of the bystanders in this instance is deplorable and worthy of informal shame. But I don't think the law should be invoked to punish them.

This behavior is utterly unbelievable. The gall of people to do this to someone.



http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003607207

Happy 4th of July. Oh the joy of it.


That's something I guess you'd expect out of New York but hey we rule :).

Basically, the rationale is that people are free to do whatever they want so long as they don't harm other people. I think there is a bit of slippery-slope rationale too: Should the law just make people call 911 or should the law make people provide first aid?I don't think anyone's asking people put themselves in harm's way, or try to perform actions they can't be expected to be able to do. If tits for brains Joe comes across some senseless bugger lying somewhere, I'd expect him to call 999 and scream his lungs out to attract others. If he can do something more than that, I expect 999 to be able to talk him through it.
If the same thing happened to my Sergeant mate, I'd expect him to provide first aid as well, because he is able to do so - just like everyone else with that job.Keep in mind that the law should not impose morality.Whether you view law as a matter of practicality or morality, is all in your head. As is this. Obviously requiring people to do whatever they can, without endangering themselves and others, for peers in distress, adds to the stability and prosperity of society. That wrecked 4WD burning in the middle of the road, might just kill the next half-sleeping peddler coming by if you don't alert the proper authorities. The pregnant chick inside might just save your beloved cat from a tree next week, if you pull her out before she's toast.. Or bacon.. Or whatever.
Enabling people to do what they can't on their own, is the sole justification for a coherent society. This is exactly that sort of thing. Morality has no more to do with it than you want it to. Despite the efforts of some overzealous segments of our society, the law should only provide order and freedom of the citizenry. Telling somebody you must save someone else b/c it's "the right thing to do" is not the proper realm of the law. I personally think that the behavior of the bystanders in this instance is deplorable and worthy of informal shame. But I don't think the law should be invoked to punish them.That 'the right thing' isn't within the sphere of the law is utter bollocks. Any system based on common law, indeed any legal system I've ever heard about, including ancient ones, are all about 'the right thing'. Whether those things are truly right, is open to interpretation. But that law is all about intent when it comes to condemning people for their actions, is no more debatable than gravity. Of course, my extreme prejudice against lawyers leads me to expect you to deny the existence of gravity, so I'll just wish you a bon voyage through the atmosphere and be done with it.

Ah.. On second thought, I believe I better mention - again - that other countries with almost identical legal systems, do in fact place such basic responsibility on the citizens. Now I won't hold you back any further, so have a nice trip. You might want to pack a good sunscreen.

I'm not really that surprised. Not much of anything I hear that people do does anymore. It's still really terrible though.

I am disgusted. Just disgusted.

If I saw someone like that, I would immediately attempt to administer first aid (I am qualified to do so), after calling 911 (which is the first step in any first aid procedure).

And I think we can use negligent homicide to convict the bystanders. Make sure to get the media involved, so we can humiliate these people.

Dorothy didn't know how good she had it... in Oz.

I think that the person with the Cellphone can be charged with criminal neglect.

Aye...at least I think they should.

Hmm..If I'm not entirely mistaken I think it's a law around here that you have a responsibility to help unless it puts you under a risk.

Besides, choosing to do nothing is a descision in the same way as choosing to act.

:confused:
Failing to help a person in need of aid is a serious crime in Belgium. Isn't it elsewhere then ??

Wow...I'd at least call 911 or something...that's bloody horrible.

:confused:
Failing to help a person in need of aid is a serious crime in Belgium. Isn't it elsewhere then ??

Apparently not across the Atlantic. :(

Obviously requiring people to do whatever they can, without endangering themselves and others, for peers in distress, adds to the stability and prosperity of society.
Na und? Enslaving a minority of people could arguably increase the "stability and prosperity of a society". Should we start violating individual rights on such a flimsy pretext? I say no.

Enabling people to do what they can't on their own, is the sole justification for a coherent society.
And coercing others into doing it for them, fits in this scheme how exactly? Such a shame that I can't gas those damn Jews on my own... (says Adolph.)

Here's a question for you - let us assume a hypothetical society in which birth rates have plummeted. It evidently requires a boost in the number of babies born to be stable and to prosper. Would it now be justifiable to force homosexuals (or anyone generally not interested in procreating) into having children in the name of the society's prosperity and stability? If not, why not?

Any system based on common law, indeed any legal system I've ever heard about, including ancient ones, are all about 'the right thing'.
Opinions differ on what the "right thing" is. About the only thing most moral systems share in common is a disdain for harming another (and even then, some do make exceptions, irrational though they may be.)

Ah.. On second thought, I believe I better mention - again - that other countries with almost identical legal systems, do in fact place such basic responsibility on the citizens.
I'd like to know which these are (in order to avoid them.)

*snip*
I am in full agreement.

Jeez...people care enough to take a picture with their stupid cell phones, but not enough to call 911? Jesus H. Fucking Christ on a stick. Anyone who refuses to help a victim of a crime like this should be sent away for manslaughter at the very least. It's not a legal responsibility, but it damn sure should be. It's our responsibility as human beings.

Anyone who walked over her should be given a long prison sentence complete with severe beatings and a healthy dose of common sense knocked into their heads. Maybe a prisoner named Bubba or Big John who lost their mother to ignorant assholes like these should assist. Maybe kick the person in the kidney and in the junk a few times and leave them to cry in pain on the floor like the bastards they are, just to teach them a lesson.

I could understand if you saw, say, bin Laden lying on the floor of a convenience store and didn't help. But a stabbing victim who's done jack-shit to deserve it? It's this kind of stuff that makes me hope there's a hell and that they're going there.

On a more sarcastic note, at least this happened in Kansas so the Phelps clan won't have to drive too far to picket the funeral.

Yes, yes, I'm sorry, But after this event, Phelps has to do something to reclaim the title of World's Biggest Asshole again.

Jeez...people care enough to take a picture with their stupid cell phones, but not enough to call 911? Jesus H. Fucking Christ on a stick. Anyone who refuses to help a victim of a crime like this should be sent away for manslaughter at the very least.
I think the prosecutor can get criminal negligence if they bring in the legal taffy machine.

It's not about being a hero, it's about not being an absolute twat. It's about basic compassion and basic decency. Does the US still have any left?

Of course it does- people in the US in general show tremendous compassion and decency.

This is an isolated-but still disgraceful- incident.

What hope does an individual have when America is guilty everyday of metaphorically stepping over and on global victims, sometimes pausing to put the boot in along the way.

I don't find it unbelievable at all.

Ok-time to bail out-the flood of bullshit is getting too deep..

Of course it does- people in the US in general show tremendous compassion and decency.

This is an isolated-but still disgraceful- incident.

Exactly.

The only reason we're hearing about this is beacuse it's rare. It's like blue lobsters.

Of course, small minded people tend to generalize about these sorts (not the lobster..) of stories.

"What the hell is wrong with Americans?"

i'm sorry i was only stirring the pot......it is bad. hopefully it wasn't as bad as it was reported because sometimes the media do get it wrong.

ps i think all lobsters are a kind of bluey grey colour until they hit the pot.

Exactly.

The only reason we're hearing about this is beacuse it's rare. It's like blue lobsters.

Of course, small minded people tend to generalize about these sorts (not the lobster..) of stories.

"What the hell is wrong with Americans?"

yeah-same small minded people are usually squeaking from the bastions of human decency,charity and forgiveness.

there are likley more contributing factors and details that were left out. Its still a lousy story and to spend your final,desperate moments with indifferent people strolling by or pausing to snap a picture has to be horrendous.
I'd like to think I would have helped her in some way if I were there,but-thats the type of person I am.

While indeed a good that bystanders were willing to help, it says something when total strangers care more about the dying lady on the floor than trained medical professionals.

And that something isn't good...

I mean...the only member of the hospital staff who paid her any mind was the janitor who cleaned up the blood around her.

Yes, but this hospital has been in trouble for a long time for precisely this reason. They didn't can the head admin for nothing. THe city's in a shit position here, too -- if they shut the hospital to clean house and replace all the gibbering idiots in charge, there will be no health care whatever in a poor neighborhood, and the city ambulances will have to take victims further, risking their safety. Unfortunately, leaving the place open is no guarantee of getting proper attention.

The OP, however, was talking about BYSTANDERS stepping over and not helping a stabbing victim, and in THIS case, bystanders were frantic to get her help. It was the institution -- and the police stationed in the hospital, and the 911 operator -- who failed to do something to save her (which is frankly frightening and appalling -- and all of THEM ought to have been sacked.)

However, its utterly inexcusable for a "Bystander Syndrome" excuse to be used when someone's life is at stake like the woman in the grocery store or the colon lady in the hospital. I mean, come on! All it takes is a quick 911 call and say a quick phrase "Someone is dying at (insert the caller's location). Send help immediately!"- all this would take only 30 seconds tops. Then the person can either lend further help to the victim or go home or whatever. Is that too much to ask, really?

For the lady in the hospital, SEVERAL people called. They were ignored -- that's the whole point of the article. They called and even berated 911 for not doing anything -- but it did no good. And as far as I am concerned, the hospital personnel on duty in the ER, the cops stationed there, and the 911 operator who told the lady berating him that he wasn't going to hell, she was, should have been sacked as well.

For the lady in the grocery, someone did call. It was too late. Maybe wouldn't have if the first five morons had done something, but -- someone did call.

So again -- a lot of blame to put on an entire country when the examples provided DID show bystanders getting involved.

That's something I guess you'd expect out of New York but hey we rule :).

Really? I've been on subways and seen people fall over each other to help a pregnant woman who's feeling woozy, help a person who's slipped between the train and platform...

...people during the blackout some years ago went out to direct traffic....

...after 9/11 people were collecting and donating water, clothes, dog food, etc to people and the rescue animals working at Ground Zero....

I admit we're a prickly bunch and often ignore a lot -- but when I've seen someone hurt or sick, I've also see a LOT of people stop to help.

Really? I've been on subways and seen people fall over each other to help a pregnant woman who's feeling woozy, help a person who's slipped between the train and platform...

...people during the blackout some years ago went out to direct traffic....

...after 9/11 people were collecting and donating water, clothes, dog food, etc to people and the rescue animals working at Ground Zero....

I admit we're a prickly bunch and often ignore a lot -- but when I've seen someone hurt or sick, I've also see a LOT of people stop to help.

Perhaps you're all bipolar?

Perhaps you're all bipolar?

Could be. You have to be a little unstable to live in a city that has more people in it than some states.

Could be. You have to be a little unstable to live in a city that has more people in it than some states.

The naked cowboy, for instance.

The naked cowboy, for instance.

Did you know there's a naked cowgirl too? A friend of mine ran into her.

Did you know there's a naked cowgirl too? A friend of mine ran into her.
At a strip joint.

So again -- a lot of blame to put on an entire country when the examples provided DID show bystanders getting involved.

I did not say or imply that America was full of people like that. I was merely arguing for the point that people just like the cell phone girl should be severely punished.

At the very least the other store customers could have had somewhat legit excuses like "I don't know how to do first aid." This is not so with the cell phone girl- she had the tool to call 911 right in front of her. Instead, she used that tool to not help someone.

Now *that* kind of behavior should be illegal, and punishment limited to those instances.

This behavior is utterly unbelievable. The gall of people to do this to someone.



http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003607207

Happy 4th of July. Oh the joy of it.

Yeah epic is correct. Its modern times, people either don't care or are too scared to intervene.

I really hope that they all end up in jail, though the fact that it was not illegal to just ignore her is really horrible. Hopefully they can use that car crash law somehow. If it doesn't work, I hope it gets put into law as fast as possible, though it will probably be forgotten in a week. People just don't care if it's not directly affecting them or someone they know.

This reminds me of when I was in Spain and had a viral infection of the stomach, after I had got a shot of medicin and some pills they just send me out on the street. Ended up walking back 2 miles back to the hotel with a severe fever, I was lucky that I even found the place since I had been to sick on the cab too even take notice of where I was going. That and I was only wearing a t-shirt and it was 10 degrees celsius outside. Not nearly as bad as the other stories, but the feeling of helplesness as people around you just ignore you when you're asking them for help is really awful. Must have been hell for that girl, atleast I knew it would be alright in the end, no matter how much it sucked while I was sick.:(

Yeah epic is correct. Its modern times, people either don't care or are too scared to intervene.

Fear has no justification in the hospital and grocery store case as there were no threats (nobody was waving a knife or gun around in these two places).

Indifference might be understandable if someone's life was *NOT* at stake. Otherwise, it is not understandable.

hmmm, not good, Im not sure if such people are representative of the majority, maybe they are, a hidden majority, I blame it on uncontrolled consumerism and dumbing down

Is it wrong that I am completely unsurprised or shocked by this? I think I would be more surprised if people actually did help.

Is it wrong that I am completely unsurprised or shocked by this? I think I would be more surprised if people actually did help.

No, it's not wrong of you. It is, however, very sad that you're absolutely right about people.

OK, as related the incident is despicable. Taking place on private property, I think there's a clear legal requirement for someone to act. Presumably the manager or other staff was unaware but surely in any jurisdiction they would have an obligation to help someone in distress on their property. Perhaps in using the shop, other customers are obliged to co-operate in this responsibility. I'm no lawyer, btw.

Heck, it's a crime. It's "not reporting a crime" and surely that's a crime anywhere?

The first person to see the woman lying bleeding has the primary responsibility (morally if not legally.) To walk around the corner, see someone sick or dying, and just think "oh, someone will be doing something already" when there is no-one even talking to the victim, is cowardice and self-deception. To actually witness the attack and do nothing is worse: there is no grounds at all to assume the situation is already being dealt with.

The second person to step over the victim has less responsibility, if they saw the first one not rendering aid. People are sheep that way.

And the woman who took a picture with her phone? Yeah, it's bad because we KNOW she had a phone, but really the others probably did too, and in any case could have gone to the store staff and had them call an ambulance. She probably went home, posted a thread about "People are so callous nowdays. I saw this today at the shops."
The picture she took might even have been useful to an investigation. We don't know what her motives were, we just assume the worst. I think she's beeing scapegoated here when clearly she didn't do the worst thing: pretend she didn't see the victim at all.

First aid training is very important, more important than having a current first aid certificate. Essentially, once trained most people have an idea of what they can do without causing harm, and what not to do, even if they forget the details of CPR for instance. Doing the wrong thing can be harmful, but more importantly once trained people know that they can do something in almost every case. Without it, they are liable to look at the spurting blood and think "there's nothing I can do. She needs surgery and I can't do that."

Certainly that's the message I got from first aid training, and I'd try to use what I remember even if that puts my ass on the line. Of course, I should renew my certification so my ass is less on the line if something like this happens in front of me, but the training is the first priority. Everyone should do it.

You know, I am not surprised by this. I know people tend to believe that others used to be more compassionate overall, but that was simply not the case. This is actually typical human behavior: it is atypical for people to care all that much.

And it makes sense too, from a biological standpoint, especially considering how many of us there are. We're in no danger of dying from extinction, so why care about the life of one human?

I disagree that it's typical human behaviour. I'm positive that unless someone was worried about getting hurt theirself, people in this country would help someone who is clearly injured - crying on a bench, no. Sat down against a wall holding stomach, no. Bleeding on the fucking floor, when it's obvious the person is injured - yes.

hmmm, not good, Im not sure if such people are representative of the majority, maybe they are, a hidden majority, I blame it on uncontrolled consumerism and dumbing down

I can't imagine that has much to do with it. The adrenaline response your brain gets at the scene of some horrible or confusing incident is probably a bit more basic than whether you're into conspicuous consumption. ;)

This behavior is utterly unbelievable. The gall of people to do this to someone.



http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003607207

Happy 4th of July. Oh the joy of it.

there's something about big cities and apathy..

there was a case of a gang of rowdies raping a mentally retarded girl in a Mumbai suburban train when the train was full and all the commuters did nothing to prevent it.

For a few days I could'nt eat properly.

there's something about big cities and apathy..

there was a case of a gang of rowdies raping a mentally retarded girl in a Mumbai suburban train when the train was full and all the commuters did nothing to prevent it.

For a few days I could'nt eat properly.
Isn't fear a possible cause for apathy in this case?

Yeah epic is correct. Its modern times, people either don't care or are too scared to intervene.

there's something about big cities and apathy..

there was a case of a gang of rowdies raping a mentally retarded girl in a Mumbai suburban train when the train was full and all the commuters did nothing to prevent it.

For a few days I could'nt eat properly.

That's even more sickening tha the original post. Plenty of people know how damaging rape is, physically and mentally and emotionally, and it was an obvious rape and they did nothing.

You know what, Wiccan or not, I can't say with 100% certainty that I wouldn't be so angry at that moment I would shoot all the passengers. Seriously. If I stopped to think then I wouldn't, but I would be SO pissed off.

As for fear, with such a sickening thing happening that's no excuse at all. Girl's life permanently destroyed or you POSSIBLY get a beating from preventing it... not a difficult choice.

ps i think all lobsters are a kind of bluey grey colour until they hit the pot.

I'm no lobster eater, but I thought they were brownish prior to being cooked...

First aid training is very important, more important than having a current first aid certificate. Essentially, once trained most people have an idea of what they can do without causing harm, and what not to do, even if they forget the details of CPR for instance. Doing the wrong thing can be harmful, but more importantly once trained people know that they can do something in almost every case. Without it, they are liable to look at the spurting blood and think "there's nothing I can do. She needs surgery and I can't do that."

Certainly that's the message I got from first aid training, and I'd try to use what I remember even if that puts my ass on the line. Of course, I should renew my certification so my ass is less on the line if something like this happens in front of me, but the training is the first priority. Everyone should do it.

100% agreement on that part.

That's even more sickening tha the original post. Plenty of people know how damaging rape is, physically and mentally and emotionally, and it was an obvious rape and they did nothing.

As for fear, with such a sickening thing happening that's no excuse at all. Girl's life permanently destroyed or you POSSIBLY get a beating from preventing it... not a difficult choice.

<3

there's something about big cities and apathy..

there was a case of a gang of rowdies raping a mentally retarded girl in a Mumbai suburban train when the train was full and all the commuters did nothing to prevent it.



Gangs are somewhat different though. To take on a gang, you need a gang. And a similar level of rowdiness or personal armament.

I'd be exchanging glances with the other blokes on the train and trying to get up a posse. Not physically intervening all on my own.

In this case, one person could have made a difference. And in defence of whoever was there, 911 was called within 2 minutes ... perhaps even by the girl who took a pic with her phone. It just doesn't say.

*...*

As for fear, with such a sickening thing happening that's no excuse at all. Girl's life permanently destroyed or you POSSIBLY get a beating from preventing it... not a difficult choice.

Yes, difficult choice. Girl gets raped or you get killed. Girl might get raped anyway if no-one follows your lead.

Link so I know what I'm talking about, Ayar ?

100% agreement on that part.


Yeah, should have been two posts. The first half was more rhetorical.

First aid should be an obligatory course in high school. At least recognized as a unit, instead of a no-credit option.

Yeah, should have been two posts. The first half was more rhetorical.

First aid should be an obligatory course in high school. At least recognized as a unit, instead of a no-credit option.

It was obligatory at my high school. But I learned it when I was 6, via girl scouts. A bit young for me, but my mum was my sister's troup leader, so I learned with their troup. And then I learned it again and again via their troup, as well as a few more times via my own. :P

It was obligatory at my high school. But I learned it when I was 6, via girl scouts. A bit young for me, but my mum was my sister's troup leader, so I learned with their troup. And then I learned it again and again via their troup, as well as a few more times via my own. :P

Wow! I knew nothing about it until I took a course in my late twenties.

In Australia (now, not when I went to school) the kids learn some resuscitation but not enough to be certified. They can do an out-of-hours course for certification, but ... they get no course credits for it! How stupid is that.

Actually, there's some sense to be introduced to it early. Teenagers can be a bit ... nervous ... about touching. Even making a sling can be a huge drama.

Yes, difficult choice. Girl gets raped or you get killed. Girl might get raped anyway if no-one follows your lead.

Link so I know what I'm talking about, Ayar ?

Why would you get killed? Most likely you'd either get beaten up or they'd stop without beating you up. They did it because they knew nobody would stop them - if somebody did something, it ruins their plan.

And trying's better than doing fuck all. Judging from your post I guess you'd do fuck all - it's cowards who help these things happen

Anyway ignore middle bit of last post, I wouldn't go that far, I was just angry when I read about that. I'd just break all the necks of those who were raping her and shout nasty things at the cowards who helped it happen by ignoring her

Gangs are somewhat different though. To take on a gang, you need a gang. And a similar level of rowdiness or personal armament.

I'd be exchanging glances with the other blokes on the train and trying to get up a posse. Not physically intervening all on my own.

In this case, one person could have made a difference. And in defence of whoever was there, 911 was called within 2 minutes ... perhaps even by the girl who took a pic with her phone. It just doesn't say.

Exchanging glances does nothing if you don't physically act as well - cus others just exhange glances back. Unless they don't give a toss about a woman's life being destroyed.

Oh and P.S. I've seen the harm rape can do (as well as researched it). I'd rather be killed preventing/trying to prevent a rape than watch people destroy a person's life so she lives in constant severe suffering - death = dead, no more suffering for you... rape = lifetime of torment (it can, after years, be dealt with on some level but not "got over")

What's more...

In the article, the DA is considering the possibility of charging the shoppers for this, but there's currently no laws that covers this kind of trangression. What's next? Legal action to force people to be considerate and kind?


Oh shit.
Well, here such people would be prosecuted for "omissione di soccorso" (more or less "omission of help"). It is a felony here.

Why would you get killed? Most likely you'd either get beaten up or they'd stop without beating you up. They did it because they knew nobody would stop them - if somebody did something, it ruins their plan.

Huge assumption. Without a link or any idea of how mean those "rowdies" were, I can't refute it.

And trying's better than doing fuck all. Judging from your post I guess you'd do fuck all - it's cowards who help these things happen

Ah. "Idle hands do the Devil's work."
‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’

I counter with "Heroes are rare. With every act of heroism, they become rarer."
And "he who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day."

And I say, as a coward perhaps, that I would calculate the risks to myself. I'd nod to the members of the posse (not all necessarily blokes, I amend that) and if I was the leader, I'd count on my fingers or give some signal so we'd all get up together. If we outnumbered the gang, yeah it might end peacefully ... but I'd be ready for a stoush.

I would not assume that being cowards, I can take them all.

Standing up on your own is just stupid. Don't count on others following your example, they've seen too much bullshit action-movie, they'd expect you to win all on your own.

Anyway ignore middle bit of last post, I wouldn't go that far, I was just angry when I read about that. I'd just break all the necks of those who were raping her and shout nasty things at the cowards who helped it happen by ignoring her

With respect for your intentions, if you take on more than two guys, you no longer have any control over the outcome. Stop watching superhero flicks, it really ain't like that.

Without weapons, 3 cowards > 1 hero. Cowards have a tendency to gang up.

Standing up on your own is just stupid. Don't count on others following your example, they've seen too much bullshit action-movie, they'd expect you to win all on your own.


Sometimes, though, I just have to react. Just so I can still look at my face in a mirror without feeling disgusted.

Fear has no justification in the hospital and grocery store case as there were no threats (nobody was waving a knife or gun around in these two places).

Indifference might be understandable if someone's life was *NOT* at stake. Otherwise, it is not understandable.

Then I would go with the peolpe don't care.

Cowards have a tendency to gang up.
Learn to use it to your adantage. Single out amongst the witnesses a person you think might need only a impulse to act and say "We must stop them! Let's do something!". Together you have much better chances to get others aboard.
In big cities there should be lessons on how to react in such situations taught in the college.

Yes, difficult choice. Girl gets raped or you get killed. Girl might get raped anyway if no-one follows your lead.

Link so I know what I'm talking about, Ayar ?

http://www.indiatogether.org/2004/jan/wom-trains.htm
A year and a half ago in August 2002, a young woman was raped on a suburban train near in Mumbai. There were half a dozen male passengers on that compartment - all of whom saw the rape and none stepped in to stop it. Interestingly one of the passengers was a journalist.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/aug/29spec.htm
What shocked Mumbai residents was the fact that when the girl was being raped, five male commuters present remained mute spectators, either too fearful or too indifferent to intervene. It is this Mumbai attitude of seeking to stay away from trouble ('lafde se door rehne ka') that is of concern. Nobody wants to get involved in the city; intervention occurs only if people are personally affected.

It was not a gang, but one man and these commuters did nothing to prevent it..

I am a lawyer, and the answer is no.

Both in tort and in criminal law, the law imposes no duty on somebody to help another person. There is only a duty to come to somebody's aid in three situations:
1) special relationship between the defendant and the victim (parental, school teacher, spousal, or the some type of contractual relationship)
2) the defendant created the peril
3) the defendant began to help the victim but abandoned it (I don't remember from law school but this may only be the case if the defendant's efforts left the victim in a situation where no other potential rescuer could help)

Basically, the rationale is that people are free to do whatever they want so long as they don't harm other people. I think there is a bit of slippery-slope rationale too: Should the law just make people call 911 or should the law make people provide first aid?

Keep in mind that the law should not impose morality. Despite the efforts of some overzealous segments of our society, the law should only provide order and freedom of the citizenry. Telling somebody you must save someone else b/c it's "the right thing to do" is not the proper realm of the law. I personally think that the behavior of the bystanders in this instance is deplorable and worthy of informal shame. But I don't think the law should be invoked to punish them.



I'm sure you will think diffrently if you were stabbed and left to die while bystanders did nothing.

The best I can come up with is that they couldn't see she was injured and thought she was, I don't know, drunk or on drugs.

But of course nobody would have taken a pic with their phone if that had been the case, so... :/

There are have been a lot of pics taken from me with a cellphone while I was drunk.

Yes, difficult choice. Girl gets raped or you get killed. Girl might get raped anyway if no-one follows your lead.

Link so I know what I'm talking about, Ayar ?
http://www.indiatogether.org/2004/jan/wom-trains.htm
A year and a half ago in August 2002, a young woman was raped on a suburban train near in Mumbai. There were half a dozen male passengers on that compartment - all of whom saw the rape and none stepped in to stop it. Interestingly one of the passengers was a journalist.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/aug/29spec.htm

What shocked Mumbai residents was the fact that when the girl was being raped, five male commuters present remained mute spectators, either too fearful or too indifferent to intervene. It is this Mumbai attitude of seeking to stay away from trouble ('lafde se door rehne ka') that is of concern. Nobody wants to get involved in the city; intervention occurs only if people are personally affected.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/aug/29spec.htm


It was not a gang, but one man and these commuters did nothing to prevent it..

That completely changes the perception I had. Thanks for the link ... it's one of those things I didn't want to dig into myself.

It might seem irrelevant just here, but trying to track down a story mentioned on NSG about a tourist held in Japan for assaulting a taxi-driver I heard about the Black Trucks there. So I'm a bit wary of trying to find stories not covered by the western media ... there's a ton of terrible stories if you go looking.

And this one is terrible. Not as I thought a "gang" ... experienced in fighting, probably armed ... but one guy.

And my reaction is different. One-on-one I'd fight him. I guess I'd look around still, see if I could improve the odds, but if it came to it I'd be talking to him to distract him, shaping up to punch and then teh kick to the balls.

There's not a lot of detail in those stories (I mean legal detail, which would come from the trial usually). Perhaps to prevent copycat offences?

Learn to use it to your advantage. Single out amongst the witnesses a person you think might need only a impulse to act and say "We must stop them! Let's do something!". Together you have much better chances to get others aboard.

This sounds right. I am also a believer in negotiation, verbal solutions. Don't be too abstract, don't be too craven, but keep the focus on the perpetrator's ego ... until you get close enough for TEH KICK TO TEH BALLS! ;)

In big cities there should be lessons on how to react in such situations taught in the college.

Yes, perhaps. Not that everyone be prepared to risk their life for others, but that they should do something.

There's some things that yes, everyone should be prepared to do. Basically, stand up and start talking. Outnumber the ruffians, even if they know you aren't all prepared to fight. If you're standing up (literally) and protesting, they can't kid themselves you are an audience.

Numbers count, face to face. It's not just a martial thing (the more numerous will always win, not necessarily so) it's a question of moral pressure.

Huge assumption. Without a link or any idea of how mean those "rowdies" were, I can't refute it.

Assumption based on viwed evidence, first-hand. But since I don't have a link to my life...

Ah. "Idle hands do the Devil's work."
‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’

I counter with "Heroes are rare. With every act of heroism, they become rarer."
And "he who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day."

"Heroes are rare. With every act of heroism, they become rarer." is a load of bollocks. There have been numerous stories in national and local newspapers about "hero" citizens, and only a tiny percentage have severely suffered because of it. As for "he who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day." - 1, it says he who fights

And I say, as a coward perhaps, that I would calculate the risks to myself. I'd nod to the members of the posse (not all necessarily blokes, I amend that) and if I was the leader, I'd count on my fingers or give some signal so we'd all get up together. If we outnumbered the gang, yeah it might end peacefully ... but I'd be ready for a stoush.

I would not assume that being cowards, I can take them all.

Standing up on your own is just stupid. Don't count on others following your example, they've seen too much bullshit action-movie, they'd expect you to win all on your own.

With respect for your intentions, if you take on more than two guys, you no longer have any control over the outcome. Stop watching superhero flicks, it really ain't like that.

Without weapons, 3 cowards > 1 hero. Cowards have a tendency to gang up.

Standing up on your own is only stupid if you don't give a toss about the person being raped. And I've faced gangs before (one of which had a knife) and they are cowards when you actually confront them. And I know what I'm capable of. Up to 5 people (and no, that's not just a convenient example because of the story), I could easily beat. More than that, I would still try - most likely I'd do what my friend did once, which is grab one guy, floor him, and keep kicking the shit out of him till the others stopped attacking (both me and the girl).

That completely changes the perception I had. Thanks for the link ... it's one of those things I didn't want to dig into myself.

It might seem irrelevant just here, but trying to track down a story mentioned on NSG about a tourist held in Japan for assaulting a taxi-driver I heard about the Black Trucks there. So I'm a bit wary of trying to find stories not covered by the western media ... there's a ton of terrible stories if you go looking.

And this one is terrible. Not as I thought a "gang" ... experienced in fighting, probably armed ... but one guy.

And my reaction is different. One-on-one I'd fight him. I guess I'd look around still, see if I could improve the odds, but if it came to it I'd be talking to him to distract him, shaping up to punch and then teh kick to the balls.

There's not a lot of detail in those stories (I mean legal detail, which would come from the trial usually). Perhaps to prevent copycat offences?

That journalist sickens me even more - he had the courage to write down a story about it, yet he did nothing to stop it. More interested in his pay than a life.

One more thing. You may remember I argued against grabbing someone's balls when it is not a sexual attack situation. Well since it was, if somebody grabbed this guy's balls he wouldn't be throwing anyone off the train.

This is like Kitty Genovese to a whole new level...

Really? I've been on subways and seen people fall over each other to help a pregnant woman who's feeling woozy, help a person who's slipped between the train and platform...

...people during the blackout some years ago went out to direct traffic....

...after 9/11 people were collecting and donating water, clothes, dog food, etc to people and the rescue animals working at Ground Zero....

I admit we're a prickly bunch and often ignore a lot -- but when I've seen someone hurt or sick, I've also see a LOT of people stop to help.

You know our "stigma" as the worlds' most indifferent city to people and what not although you're right I've really seen more humanity here in NYC than in some of the most "friendly" southern places in the US.