NationStates Jolt Archive

Something great has happened to me! I have been given a chance to testify to those around me of God's eternal love. After long periods of prayer, and soul on the brink of breaking down into despair, last night God answered many of my long awaited prayers seemingly all at once.

For instance, I was very worried about finances for my schooling, and apartment for this year, and well I prayed for a blessing, and prayed and prayed some more. Last night, at around 7 pm, my father called and told me that if was available to watch my cousin harold(he had a stroke and requires constant care) for a week, during my dad's wedding and honey moon, then he'd give me the money that he is paid to watch him. That is nearly a thousand dollars. That covers my books and my apartment! And since i receive the Illinois MAP grant, most of my tuition is paid off. How amazing for that! By allowing me to get the funds, i get to go back to school, and ultimately back to the campus church, where i have grown exponentially in the past year. Sure to some it seems that it is a nice coincidence. But guess what? there is more!

As many as you know, I plan on going into the mission field after i get done with school, specifically to Lebanon, and more than likely, Palestinian territories as well. Well, I really have this desire to go and show Christ's love to the people in need of hope, but I had no idea how to start it, what to do, who to contact etc etc. So i prayed for God to show me a way and so on. Well, i had almost all but given up on the idea of going over there period as it was useless since I had no idea of anything. But again God has other plans. Last night, I log onto a christian forum and the first thing i see if a girl my age looking for help on what to do regarding a mission field towards people of the middle east. Not only that, but I got an email from a gal in Lebanon, saying that she was more than willing to get me all the info I want, and to get me contacts.

Finally, Last night, although i was excited to hear such good news, i was still kind of down, because I realized that I suck a lot of times, emulating Christ, as I should. I mean you can even see that on here, when I have been hateful to someone like Fass, for example. I don't want to be that though, ya know? I want to be an example, and well, all those thoughts of people I rubbed the wrong way, brought me down, because I wasn't able to show them the truth of Christ. Well, I was praying, and asking God to heal my hurt heart, and to raise me up from that despair, and, I swear on my life and those that I love the most, two or three minutes I got an email from a random gentlemen, saying :

You will most certainly come into your full potential in serving Jesus, as it is He that is bringing you along into what He has already planned and set into motion.

I know that You are having a definite impact on friends and family alike, especially in the Spirit, He is affecting their souls, and hearts and minds through you, in ways that even they do not quite recognize yet.

In all of this, and especially your overwhelming Love for Him, your Great Gratitude.....He is So Glorified Already. He Loves you So Much that He cannot take His eyes off of You.
He is So Pleased with You, and You bring Such Joy to His Heart Day and Night.

Be Very Encouraged Thomas, you are His Faithful and Precious Child!

I was in shock! I replied telling him how i was praying for something just like that, and he replied back to me:

Thomas, I Just felt that I needed to write to you in that moment, and the words just seemed to flow out.

It most surely Is Him!

Write back whenever you like.

I mean, how would a total stranger, who was just happening to pray at the same time as I, know to contact me, and give an answer to that last prayer? There is no way that it was by luck, accident, or coincidence. It has to be God. There is no other way to it.

Now what does this mean? For me, a lot. I kind of feel renewed, and more faithful to God now. Sometimes, as believers we get bogged down because it seems like He isn't working miracles in our lives. But I am here to testify that He is alive and He is still working Miracles.

To ensure that this thread will not be reported for spam/ being a blog, I ask of you NSG, is this coincidence, or not? If you are a believer, what can you testify to God doing for you as of late? As always, keep it cordial, and free of flames :)

oh and for those that think i may be lying or stretching the truth, I'd ask you to consider what it would benefit me to lie to a bunch of internet strangers? Its not like I am getting a reward or anything for this. The reward is the experience in its self.

*The thumbs go up*

It's nice that some people have imaginary sky friends.

Why does God only seem to appear believers and never me

Why does God only seem to appear believers and never me

He is imaginary and only appears before those who live in a world with elves and magic pixies.

He is imaginary and only appears before those who live in a world with elves and magic pixies.

Or people who went to bible study after snorting pixie sticks.

So much for, "we only attack christians when they attack us" :rolleyes:

He is imaginary and only appears before those who live in a world with elves and magic pixies.

I'm always a fan of the "You have to be open to him to have him appear" line.

I'm always a fan of the "You have to be open to him to have him appear" line.

I think I just took that the wrong way... "open"... hehehehe... it has sexual connotations!

get a blog, some kind of jesus blog if you must, but a blog

Uh, Zilam, didn't you not two weeks ago post about how Religion was duping people?

Edit: Found it (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12824268&postcount=22).

I think I just took that the wrong way... "open"... hehehehe... it has sexual connotations!

Thats what I meant *nods*

The last time I prayed, I was horrifically thirsty, so I prayed for a Diet Coke. To my surprise, He said unto me, "O, go to the McDonald's a block away, for there they have Diet Coke for the faithful."

And I said unto God, "Dude, I could have figured that out. Can't you magically create one, or, at the very least, make it free?"

And God said unto me, "Stfu, n00b."

Thats what I meant *nods*

Good so I didn't take it the wrong way. Good, I didn't piss off the imaginary sky friend. :)

He is imaginary and only appears before those who live in a world with elves and magic pixies.

And I am sure that those miracles which happened to me last night, plus the miracles of healings I have witnessed, are just acts of an imaginary being.

So much for, "we only attack christians when they attack us" :rolleyes:

It doesn't bother me anymore. I used to get mad and attack back, but eh, "don't be in awe when the world hates you, because they hated first"- Jesus

And I am sure that those miracles which happened to me last night, plus the miracles of healings I have witnessed, are just acts of an imaginary being.

It's called having a "good day".

And I am sure that those miracles which happened to me last night, plus the miracles of healings I have witnessed, are just acts of an imaginary being.



Miracles vs Chance

Uh, Zilam, didn't you not two weeks ago post about how Religion was duping people?

I said I hate religion. Christianity is not meant to be a religion. Its the continuing of our original relationship and fellowship with God, as it was intended. Unfortunatly, people(i am guilty of this) turn a lifestyle into a religion, and Jesus would opposed to that, no?

get a blog, some kind of jesus blog if you must, but a blog

I point you to this:
To ensure that this thread will not be reported for spam/ being a blog, I ask of you NSG, is this coincidence, or not? If you are a believer, what can you testify to God doing for you as of late? As always, keep it cordial, and free of flames

If I wanted to see miracles, I could just get out some LSD. :) Even if I witnessed nothing at least I'd see cool stuff.

Somehow, ingesting a mind altering substance doesn't seem to be as awesome of God working miracles, but hey, if you want to do it, more power to you!

Somehow, ingesting a mind altering substance doesn't seem to be as awesome of God working miracles, but hey, if you want to do it, more power to you!

What is it that makes something a miracle? Is it based on the probability of the event being small or.....?

Well I'm glad things are gong right for you, Zilam. But it's hardly a series of miracles.

I said I hate religion. Christianity is not meant to be a religion. Its the continuing of our original relationship and fellowship with God, as it was intended. Unfortunatly, people(i am guilty of this) turn a lifestyle into a religion, and Jesus would opposed to that, no?



I point you to this:

How is Christianity not a religion? You are accepting, on faith, claims about the supernatural (even the claim that the supernatural even exists is unfounded). Sounds exactly like a religion to me.

Zilam, while I enjoy laughing my ass off at your naïve notions of the nonsensical and religiously desperate (oh, so, desperate that I almost resorted to calling them wretched) as much as the next semi-normal person, I have to ask you: why do you make yourself open to such ridicule with these disjointed and almost incoherent blog posts? I mean, you must have at least some remnant of a sense of propriety left when it comes to what you can seriously say and have people not laugh at you? That campus church can't have robbed you of all of it, now could it?

So, why? Why do you make yourself such an easy and lachrymose target?

You needed god to help you fund your schooling, I did it myself through hard work.

My hard work payed for 6 years of schooling (undergrad and grad) 4 degrees and is now paying both for my place and paying off the farm for my parents.

I relied on myself, no lucky breaks no miracles just determination

It is nice that you enjoy your experiences, I just have no need for them, I have never been spared the low points in my life and I have always dug my own way out of them. The high points in my life I made myself and I don't need no god trying to take credit for my hard work.

I don't get breaks I make them

So, why? Why do you make yourself such an easy and lachrymose target?

No offense Zilam but I have to agree, especially with such a lame title.

I said I hate religion. Christianity is not meant to be a religion. Its the continuing of our original relationship and fellowship with God, as it was intended. Unfortunatly, people(i am guilty of this) turn a lifestyle into a religion, and Jesus would opposed to that, no?



I point you to this:

Christianity has and always will be a RELIGION... I think you mean organized religion, that makes a bit more sense.

Zilam, while I enjoy laughing my ass off at your naïve notions of the nonsensical and religiously desperate (oh, so, desperate that I almost resorted to calling them wretched) as much as the next semi-normal person, I have to ask you: why do you make yourself open to such ridicule with these disjointed and almost incoherent blog posts? I mean, you must have at least some remnant of a sense of propriety left when it comes to what you can seriously say and have people not laugh at you? That campus church can't have robbed you of all of it, now could it?

So, why? Why do you make yourself such an easy and lachrymose target?

Im sorry, I don't feel like being quiet when it comes to my relationship with God. And don't you find it at least a bit hypocritical when you complain in the past of christians mocking you and your lifestyle, but here you are here mocking my lifestyle? if you feel compelled to laugh and make fun of me, then do so. But as I said, I cannot be quiet about it.

How is Christianity not a religion? You are accepting, on faith, claims about the supernatural (even the claim that the supernatural even exists is unfounded). Sounds exactly like a religion to me. Religion is a set of rules and regulations made by man to try and reach God's level. Christianity, is about restoring our fellowship with God, and having Him meet us where we are at.

You needed god to help you fund your schooling, I did it myself through hard work.

My hard work payed for 6 years of schooling (undergrad and grad) 4 degrees and is now paying both for my place and paying off the farm for my parents.

I relied on myself, no lucky breaks no miracles just determination

It is nice that you enjoy your experiences, I just have no need for them, I have never been spared the low points in my life and I have always dug my own way out of them. The high points in my life I made myself and I don't need no god trying to take credit for my hard work.

I don't get breaks I make them

And you don't think I haven't worked hard to get where I am at? This is just an example of how, when I was at a low point, God has shown me He is helping out. Good for you for relying on yourself, I however, realize that my own attempts to good in this world won't get me much but a temporary reward, but instead relying on God to work with me and through me, i reap rewards now and in the here after.

The last time I prayed, I was horrifically thirsty, so I prayed for a Diet Coke. To my surprise, He said unto me, "O, go to the McDonald's a block away, for there they have Diet Coke for the faithful."

And I said unto God, "Dude, I could have figured that out. Can't you magically create one, or, at the very least, make it free?"

And God said unto me, "Stfu, n00b."

Maybe if you had actually gone to the McDonald's and asked to recieve your holy Diet God Cola, they would have given it to you. :p

Snip

Religion is a set of rules and regulations made by man to try and reach God's level. Christianity, is about restoring our fellowship with God, and having Him meet us where we are at.


snip

No religon can encompas such things it is not limited to them though

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

No religon can encompas such things it is not limited to them though

You can give me all the dictionary meanings you want. I know religion though, i used to be a religionist. It got me no where. But I cast it aside for a new way of life, and things are changing rapidly and for the better. Its not my fault that people are blind to see how God works.

Religion is a set of rules and regulations made by man to try and reach God's level. Christianity, is about restoring our fellowship with God, and having Him meet us where we are at.



What about the 10 Commandments? or any other part of the Bible?

No offense Zilam but I have to agree, especially with such a lame title.

Yeah presentation can mean all the difference

I mean think of your perception between a friend honestly talking about their faith with you and a street preacher yelling it on the corner

Both are talking about the same subject but presentation makes the difference in the reaction to both of them

You can give me all the dictionary meanings you want. I know religion though, i used to be a religionist. It got me no where. But I cast it aside for a new way of life, and things are changing rapidly and for the better. Its not my fault that people are blind to see how God works.

You can re-define words all you want it will also get you no where.

If you want to honestly argue or even preach you have to use real words and definition so other people can understand what the hell you are trying to convey to them.

I am reminded of an experiment that was described in Carl Sagan's book The Demon-Haunted World. It was an experiment conducted by a astronomy professor after he brought the class to the subject of astrology. He said that as astronomers who study the stars, they should test the theory of astronomy.

he had each student fill out a form including the date, time, and place of birth. He said that with this information he would send it to a professional astronomer who would create a detailed personal report on each individual.

Then some lcasses later the professor said that the reports were done, and handed a sealed envelope with each student's name written on it. He asked them each to open their own personal report and read it, silently to themselves. Afterwards he asked if the students felt the report was an accurate review of their personalities. almost everyone in the 50 or so person class said that the report was at least somewhat accurate. About 50% said it was very accurate, and about 30%, so about 15 people of the 50 person or so class, said the report was almost entirely accurate, describing them almost perfectly.

The professor said that it was fair to say that almost everyone in the class felt that the professionally prepared astronomy report was at least a generally decent overview of each person, and many like their specially personally prepared reports was specifically describing them with great detail.

The professor then said he should read his own report. At which point he took up his own envelope, opened it, and proceded to read his results to the class. As he did so, wispers could be heard from the students as general confusion seemed to set in. When the professor finished it was clear what had happened.

All of these personal reports, that most felt was at least a fair explanation of their personality and many felt described their particular personality exactly, every single student, and the professor, had exactly the same report.

There was no personalized personality report. No astrological star gazing. Each student was given the exact same report, and yet many felt like it described them specifically. Of course this report contianed comments like "you often feel social but yet other times wish to be aone" and "you feel great love for your family, but often feel conflicted between your sense of loyalty, and your sense of individuality".

The report was so generic that it cfould have been used to describe basically anybody. Which was the whole point of these exercises. That many of these things work by describing things in such general terms such as "some good things are coming your way" that they're bound to fit most people.

Which is all this is. Let's look at this email:

You will most certainly come into your full potential in serving Jesus, as it is He that is bringing you along into what He has already planned and set into motion.

I know that You are having a definite impact on friends and family alike, especially in the Spirit, He is affecting their souls, and hearts and minds through you, in ways that even they do not quite recognize yet.

In all of this, and especially your overwhelming Love for Him, your Great Gratitude.....He is So Glorified Already. He Loves you So Much that He cannot take His eyes off of You.
He is So Pleased with You, and You bring Such Joy to His Heart Day and Night.


There's nothing in this email that screams "you". There's nothing that seems specific to you.

Now if you wish to believe that youa re the only person in the world who is feeling concerned that they might not be living up to their religious tenants and are feeling conflicted between their religious practices and their private lives well...ok.

But I'm willing to bet I can pick 100 names out of the phonebook and that will equally apply to at least 30 of them.

What about the 10 Commandments? or any other part of the Bible?

All summed up as Christ Said "Love God with all your mind heart and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself" Its about love, which God is Love, and its not about rules. they hinder us. Keep us from reaching our God ordained potential.

He is imaginary and only appears before those who live in a world with elves and magic pixies.

Don't dis the elves and pixies, they're good friends of mine, unlike that jackass god who put salt in the sugar bowl:mad:

Seriously though isn't what was said in the OP a kind gesture any human could make instead of omni-benevolence from an omnipotent force?

Yeah presentation can mean all the difference

I mean think of your perception between a friend honestly talking about their faith with you and a street preacher yelling it on the corner

Both are talking about the same subject but presentation makes the difference in the reaction to both of them

Yeah, and it doesn't help his non religion argument, by using the most stereotypically religious title.

All summed up as Christ Said "Love God with all your mind heart and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself" Its about love, which God is Love, and its not about rules. they hinder us. Keep us from reaching our God ordained potential.

Ah so you're of the St Augustine of Hippo school of Christianity

snip

Argh! You edited it! :mad:

Im sorry, I don't feel like being quiet when it comes to my relationship with God.

We've seen that by now, and we've laughed profusely at it as well, not just because it is a "relationship with God" (although that does set the tone of the poppycock sure to follow), but with you actually using such phrases as "relationship with God", "testify" and "soul on the brink of breaking down into despair" - I mean, how can it get more woefully emo than that?

And don't you find it at least a bit hypocritical when you complain in the past of christians mocking you and your lifestyle

You see, Christians haven't "mocked my lifestyle" - Christians are pretty bad at mocking anything, by the way - but they have attacked my sexual orientation and my right to equality before the law, neither of which is a "lifestyle".

but here you are here mocking my lifestyle?

That's the point, I don't even need to mock what you write in these discombobulated blog posts of yours (your "lifestyle" I couldn't really give a fuck about other than hoping there's more to it than this sad display of religious lack of sophistication), as they are already a mockery in unto themselves. Hence, I ask you, why do you write them to be so?

if you feel compelled to laugh and make fun of me, then do so. But as I said, I cannot be quiet about it.

More laughter for me then, more lachrymosity from you. I don't lose one bit at it, while you... well, fall further into emo.

Why does God only seem to appear believers and never me


You are Irish, and thus cast out. You may only call forlornly for him on the great white blower...

Snip the goodness

I agree, this is a tool used by astrologist, gypsies,Terrot card readers, and all other manner of personality or fortune tellers and religions.

There are things all of us really do go through or something that could be construed in such a way. Humans are fantastically varied but at the same time share a lot of commonality.

So many people fall for it ... I just hope he does not loose something valuable (time, money, safety whatever) in pursuit of smoke.

Christianity is not meant to be a religion.
Whaa?

Somehow, ingesting a mind altering substance doesn't seem to be as awesome of God working miracles, but hey, if you want to do it, more power to you!
You realise that there is a specific part of your brain that makes people sense/see a holy presence, or feel the existence of a greater being, or whatever, when stimulated, right? It's all chemicals, man. No drug vision or religious raving is any different or more real than any other. So I think that's a bit narrow minded of you.

<snip>
Well said!

As many as you know, I plan on going into the mission field after i get done with school, specifically to Lebanon, and more than likely, Palestinian territories as well. Well, I really have this desire to go and show Christ's love to the people in need of hope, but I had no idea how to start it, what to do, who to contact etc etc. So i prayed for God to show me a way and so on. Well, i had almost all but given up on the idea of going over there period as it was useless since I had no idea of anything. But again God has other plans. Last night, I log onto a christian forum and the first thing i see if a girl my age looking for help on what to do regarding a mission field towards people of the middle east. Not only that, but I got an email from a gal in Lebanon, saying that she was more than willing to get me all the info I want, and to get me contacts.



What, might I enquire, are you going to do there, bearing in mind the fact that its a dangerous place, and twice so for an American, for obvious reasons....

Something great has happened to me!

[snipped]

To ensure that this thread will not be reported for spam/ being a blog, I ask of you NSG, is this coincidence, or not? If you are a believer, what can you testify to God doing for you as of late? As always, keep it cordial, and free of flames :)
I'm happy for you! :p

Not to mention that the last thing which the Levant needs is more fundamentalist dogma, I would be so bold as to suggest that the region already has a surfeit.

Zilam, I'd be interested to know what denomination you would describe yourself to be and what denomination your parents fall into?

How did you come to your faith, has it always been something in your life or is it a newfound phenomenon?

Religion is a set of rules and regulations made by man to try and reach God's level.


And Christianity is not?

Then what are the 10 Commandments? Rules and Regulations made not for

...restoring our fellowship with God, and having Him meet us where we are at.

But to try to make us reach God's level.

How did you come to your faith, has it always been something in your life or is it a newfound phenomenon?

Does the flailing not remove any doubt as to the latter?

I'm happy for you about your good day Zilam. The events you so sensationally described aren't exactly supernatural manifestations though. Jobs come up. Forruming yields contacts. Spam emails are recieved. etc.

Also, I agree with the previous poster. Lebanon and Palestine hardly need more self-satisfied proselitizers. It's incredible to persume that you will show up and create world peace by spreading God's love. There far more love for god than is healthy in that region already. Also, there's already chrsitians there, so you're covered.

Not to mention that the last thing which the Levant needs is more fundamentalist dogma, I would be so bold as to suggest that the region already has a surfeit.

Zilam, I'd be interested to know what denomination you would describe yourself to be and what denomination your parents fall into?

How did you come to your faith, has it always been something in your life or is it a newfound phenomenon?
And Christianity is not?

Then what are the 10 Commandments? Rules and Regulations made not for



But to try to make us reach God's level.
Two first posts! Congratulations!

You need a better spam filter.

Always wonderful to see someone find the Lord. Congratulations.

Yay! :)

How is Christianity not a religion? You are accepting, on faith, claims about the supernatural (even the claim that the supernatural even exists is unfounded). Sounds exactly like a religion to me.

Religion means ritual, obeying rules legalistically etc. If you read Pauls letters he explains why this isnt good.

And Christianity is not?

Then what are the 10 Commandments? Rules and Regulations made not for

But to try to make us reach God's level.

Religion is the story of man trying to reach God. He will do this in many ways, by obeying rules, by observing rituals, by visiting holy places, by attending services etc.

However Christianity is the story of God reaching out to us. We cannot reach God of our own volition, no matter how much we pray, how much we go to church, how much we follow the rules or do the rituals and read the litergy. God reached out to us by dying in our place. Nothing we could do can make us reach him, so all we do is trust him to do it for us.

Religion means ritual, obeying rules legalistically etc. If you read Pauls letters he explains why this isnt good.

No it does not

It can involve that , it does not have to. At least according to the English language.

Religion is the story of man trying to reach God. He will do this in many ways, by obeying rules, by observing rituals, by visiting holy places, by attending services etc.

However Christianity is the story of God reaching out to us. We cannot reach God of our own volition, no matter how much we pray, how much we go to church, how much we follow the rules or do the rituals and read the litergy. God reached out to us by dying in our place. Nothing we could do can make us reach him, so all we do is trust him to do it for us.

God chose to make dying necessary, as for that last part seems to be the lazy way to me. One would think it would be a good thing to strive and be like god, him being good and all.

God chose to make dying necessary, as for that last part seems to be the lazy way to me. One would think it would be a good thing to strive and be like god, him being good and all.

You do strive to become better, but it is impossible to become like him, IE Sinless.

I'm happy for you, but I still don't believe. And nothing will convince me.

I'm happy for you, but I still don't believe. And nothing will convince me.

Isn't that a bit closed minded

Congratulations, I'm glad things worked out for you.

I'm not a believer. Religion didn't work for me. Perhaps I did it wrong?

I'm happy for you, but I still don't believe. And nothing will convince me.

What if I hit you over the head with a mallet, tie you to an office chair and spin you around real fast? Would that convince you? :p

God chose to make dying necessary, as for that last part seems to be the lazy way to me. One would think it would be a good thing to strive and be like god, him being good and all.

It is good to strive to be like him, but ultimately we cannot be the same as him and that striving is not in itself what takes us to be with him. And God did not choose for dying to be nessecary. It is in his nature that it was. He is not omnipotent in the stupid Greek classical way (he cannot lie for instance).

I'm happy for you, but I still don't believe. And nothing will convince me.

I will make note of this for when I become Almighty. Should be fun. :)

It is good to strive to be like him, but ultimately we cannot be the same as him and that striving is not in itself what takes us to be with him. And God did not choose for dying to be nessecary. It is in his nature that it was. He is not omnipotent in the stupid Greek classical way (he cannot lie for instance).

Why is the idea of an omnipotent God stupid?

Religion didn't work for me. Perhaps I did it wrong?

No, no, you did just what's supposed to be done - discarded the notion.

Why is the idea of an omnipotent God stupid?

I didn't say an idea of an omnipotent God was stupid. I said the idea of omnipotence in the classic greek sense was stupid, because it then goes on to suggest things like God can make 4 sided triangles and other such foolish notions.

It is good to strive to be like him, but ultimately we cannot be the same as him and that striving is not in itself what takes us to be with him. And God did not choose for dying to be nessecary. It is in his nature that it was. He is not omnipotent in the stupid Greek classical way (he cannot lie for instance).

That's both blasphemy as well as heresy.

Have fun with that. Eris and I are doing well!

That's both blasphemy as well as heresy.

Care to explain why rather than just accuse away.

Have fun with that. Eris and I are doing well!

Remember to use protection when attempting intercourse with divine beings.

I see he's failed to explain what he plans to do in the Leb/OT......

Care to explain why rather than just accuse away.

Heresy, because it's contrary to dogma and a dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice, and blasphemy because it shows contempt or lack of reverence for God. Don't think it matters one iota to me, but you are resorting to both in your unwillingness to accept omnipotence; having absolute power over all. That's probably because you realise the untenable inanity that lies in such a belief, but instead of rejecting it completely - and thus rejecting belief in this imagined deity which is per definition omnipotent - you choose to try to have your denial cake and eat it, too, by inventing your own, flawed claims as to what omnipotence is. Sort of like Zilam, who sees what religion leads to and distances himself from it, but to do so has to fool himself into thinking that he isn't part of it.

Remember to use protection when attempting intercourse with divine beings.

I made that mistake once. Ow. :(

I see he's failed to explain what he plans to do in the Leb/OT......

Didn't he say missionary work?

Remember to use protection when attempting intercourse with divine beings.

With eris, it rarely matters... As a wise man once said, when it's your turn to get reamed, you might as well bend over and pray for lube. And frankly, we're living proof right now (just found out my great aunt in England died... :()

hmmm, what can I say to you? First of all: congrats on the money. But then: have you taken into account that these people knew of your financial situation and thus decided to help you without the involvement of a God? Third: The Bhagwagita states that Krishna answers all prayers, even if they are addressed to different Gods. What made you think it was not him but Jesus. Fourth: Can't it have been chance?

With eris, it rarely matters... As a wise man once said, when it's your turn to get reamed, you might as well bend over and pray for lube. And frankly, we're living proof right now

Indeed, but if Zeus can get women pregnant when he's a swan or a cow or something like that, Eris can get men pregnant via buttsecks.
(just found out my great aunt in England died... :()

:( My condolences.

Didn't he say missionary work?
He did.

*hands out reading glasses*

Indeed, but if Zeus can get women pregnant when he's a swan or a cow or something like that, Eris can get men pregnant via buttsecks.

Troof.


:( My condolences.

Thanks. Aunt Lil was a hell of a lady. She had to be one, to be part of this family! Mom has asked us not to tell grandma because she and my aunt are going over tomorrow. Since we have to drop her groceries tonight, that's not going to be easy.

Last night, I log onto a christian forum and the first thing i see if a girl my age looking for help on what to do regarding a mission field towards people of the middle east

I see it now...I had sort of hoped he was going out there in some way that might do some good. "Christian peace patrol" or something similar.

Heresy, because it's contrary to dogma and a dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice, and blasphemy because it shows contempt or lack of reverence for God. Don't think it matters one iota to me, but you are resorting to both in your unwillingness to accept omnipotence; having absolute power over all. That's probably because you realise the untenable inanity that lies in such a belief, but instead of rejecting it completely - and thus rejecting belief in this imagined deity which is per definition omnipotent - you choose to try to have your denial cake and eat it, too, by inventing your own, flawed claims as to what omnipotence is. Sort of like Zilam, who sees what religion leads to and distances himself from it, but to do so has to fool himself into thinking that he isn't part of it.

If you read the Bible, it is the Bible where I get this view from. The Bible does not say he is omnipotent in the classicaly Greek sense. He is not the God of three sided squares or Purple cars that are blue etc. The Bible says God cannot lie and do many other things. It also says that its in Gods nature that Jesus's death would be nessecary because God is Just.

If you read the Bible, it is the Bible where I get this view from. The Bible does not say he is omnipotent in the classicaly Greek sense. He is not the God of three sided squares or Purple cars that are blue etc. The Bible says God cannot lie and do many other things. It also says that its in Gods nature that Jesus's death would be nessecary because God is Just.

As I said, to have your denial cake and eat it too, you have to go: "Oh, God is omnipotent! Just not in the omnipotent sense." Not very honest with yourself, are you.

Jeez, can't there be a thread where people aren't at each other's throats?

This thread is so bizarre on so many levels.

Isn't that a bit closed minded

He has his belief, I have mine. I've seen nothing to convince me of God's existence. I don't want to start a debate.

I will make note of this for when I become Almighty. Should be fun. :)

You do that, man.

What if I hit you over the head with a mallet, tie you to an office chair and spin you around real fast? Would that convince you? :p

Let me think about that...uhh...No.

It speaks volumes about a person who has to turn to an imaginary voice for purpose.

I am always amazed at Christian resiliency: when things go from extra shitty to normal shitty, they revel in the benevolence of their god.

I am always amazed at Christian resiliency: when things go from extra shitty to normal shitty, they revel in the benevolence of their god.

You know, I've noticed this "what a great and benevolent god he is for curing me of my cancer!"

"you mean the benevolent god who gave you cancer in the first place?"

I will make note of this for when I become Almighty. Should be fun. :)

LG Almighty... *shudder*

*Imagines a flood of mud pies*

You know, I've noticed this "what a great and benevolent god he is for curing me of my cancer!"

"you mean the benevolent god who gave you cancer in the first place?"

No...wasn't that Satan?

I get so confused!

Something great has happened to me! I have been given a chance to testify to those around me of God's eternal love. After long periods of prayer, and soul on the brink of breaking down into despair, last night God answered many of my long awaited prayers seemingly all at once.

If you are a believer, what can you testify to God doing for you as of late? As always, keep it cordial, and free of flames :)

It's nice that some people have imaginary sky friends.
Here is a guy celebrating his good fortune and revelling in his faith and yet you feel compelled to waste your finite time by declaring how atheist you are?

How mean spirited can you be?

Here is a guy celebrating his good fortune and revelling in his faith and yet you feel compelled to waste your finite time by declaring how atheist you are?

How mean spirited can you be?

I dont know street corner preaching really deserves to be returned in kind I suppose

I did not partake in it but if you get up and stand up on a soapbox thumping your chest you have to expect someone to not agree with what you are saying or even find it silly

I dont know street corner preaching really deserves to be returned in kind I suppose

I did not partake in it but if you get up and stand up on a soapbox thumping your chest you have to expect someone to not agree with what you are saying or even find it silly
I didn't quite see it as bragging as such, more of a celebration of good fortune. Also his direction for the thread was quite clear.

I have seen the nasty rebuttal from many an atheist on these forums when it was totally uncalled for. I have also seen it the other way round as well and that being the case, the parties can bait each other for all I care.

I just felt it was totally unnecessary for Kryozerkia to say what she said. If one believes or doesn't believe, that is their business, but the focus of this thread was not on those who do not believe.......

Originally Posted by Zilam

If you are a believer, what can you testify to God doing for you as of late?
Simple question.

I didn't quite see it as bragging as such, more of a celebration of good fortune. Also his direction for the thread was quite clear.

I have seen the nasty rebuttal from many an atheist on these forums when it was totally uncalled for. I have also seen it the other way round as well and that being the case, the parties can bait each other for all I care.

I just felt it was totally unnecessary for Kryozerkia to say what she said. If one believes or doesn't believe, that is their business, but the focus of this thread was not on those who do not believe.......

Originally Posted by Zilam


Simple question.

With his pie in the sky past posting history? Hell I think it was intended exactly for non believers

How mean spirited can you be?

I'm mean spirited because I found a snarky way of saying that I found it highly unprobable that "God" made it possible for those so-called "miracles".

I also wanted a say of saying, "how cute". :p

I just felt it was totally unnecessary for Kryozerkia to say what she said. If one believes or doesn't believe, that is their business, but the focus of this thread was not on those who do not believe.......

So? We're still allowed to reply and post. There is no restriction on being a jackass to a degree here.

I believe in God and He doesn't talk to me. :(

Most things seen in the past and present as miraculous can be explained. Receiving spam from a religious forum into which you were required to submit your email address is not a miracle. Receiving a financial boon from a relative who has certainly heard about your need is not a miracle.

However, can anyone say with absolute certainty if either event would have happened if Zilam hadn't prayed? No. But again, is that God or just random chance?

My point is that if Zilam wishes to attribute his fortune to God, that's his lookout, and more power to him. It's one less person willing to step on his neighbor for personal gain (in theory).

But he posted his perception of miracles in General, and he got the response anyone should reasonably expect in here -- skepticism and outright mockery. So more power to the skeptics and mockers as well.

For just as Zilam needs to tell himself God helped him, you mockers are just as needful of the antitheistic reassurance that not praying and not believing is fine and dandy and that your immortal soul is not in peril for rejecting popular belief.

I'm not saying that anyone's soul even exists, let alone is in danger (I cannot know for certain about either statement, regardless of how it makes me feel to believe or disbelieve either one), but admit it -- the religious culture is pervasive enough that antitheists actively seek reassurance from other antitheists and their arguments in order to downplay the Divine in any form it is seen to take. You therefore can relax whenever God is mentioned, instead of feeling guilty about not believing.

Whatever you believe, it's my point by posting this to imply that neither side has the corner on truth. The only thing more pointless, then, than the open declaration of what you believe, is the subsequent (often nasty and certainly unfruitful) debate.

In short, if it's unknowable, and someone on either side presents a statement of belief of their personal knowledge, and does so without outright or deliberate offense to anyone -- as did Zilam -- what is the point of mockery? Surely the only reason to shred such an inoffensive post is to make yourselves feel better about being antitheists. Therefore, if tearing down another person's epiphany is a way of reinforcing your beliefs, whose belief (or absence thereof) is more deserving of mockery?

I'm not advocating censorship, but rather sensitivity when and where it is called for. Had Zilam stated that his epiphany included the complete damnation of all non-believers, homosexuals, Liberals, and so forth (as a few who post in General occasionally profess), then, by all means, fire away -- that particular poster is getting what he deserves.

Zilam attacked nobody.

And that's all.

Most things seen in the past and present as miraculous can be explained. Receiving spam from a religious forum into which you were required to submit your email address is not a miracle. Receiving a financial boon from a relative who has certainly heard about your need is not a miracle.

However, can anyone say with absolute certainty if either event would have happened if Zilam hadn't prayed? No. But again, is that God or just random chance?

My point is that if Zilam wishes to attribute his fortune to God, that's his lookout, and more power to him. It's one less person willing to step on his neighbor for personal gain (in theory).

But he posted his perception of miracles in General, and he got the response anyone should reasonably expect in here -- skepticism and outright mockery. So more power to the skeptics and mockers as well.

For just as Zilam needs to tell himself God helped him, you mockers are just as needful of the antitheistic reassurance that not praying and not believing is fine and dandy and that your immortal soul is not in peril for rejecting popular belief.

I'm not saying that anyone's soul even exists, let alone is in danger (I cannot know for certain about either statement, regardless of how it makes me feel to believe or disbelieve either one), but admit it -- the religious culture is pervasive enough that antitheists actively seek reassurance from other antitheists and their arguments in order to downplay the Divine in any form it is seen to take. You therefore can relax whenever God is mentioned, instead of feeling guilty about not believing.

Whatever you believe, it's my point by posting this to imply that neither side has the corner on truth. The only thing more pointless, then, than the open declaration of what you believe, is the subsequent (often nasty and certainly unfruitful) debate.

In short, if it's unknowable, and someone on either side presents a statement of belief of their personal knowledge, and does so without outright or deliberate offense to anyone -- as did Zilam -- what is the point of mockery? Surely the only reason to shred such an inoffensive post is to make yourselves feel better about being antitheists. Therefore, if tearing down another person's epiphany is a way of reinforcing your beliefs, whose belief (or absence thereof) is more deserving of mockery?

I'm not advocating censorship, but rather sensitivity when and where it is called for. Had Zilam stated that his epiphany included the complete damnation of all non-believers, homosexuals, Liberals, and so forth (as a few who post in General occasionally profess), then, by all means, fire away -- that particular poster is getting what he deserves.

Zilam attacked nobody.

And that's all.

I agree with you, good manners derserve a show of good manners back.

Yet that is my belife, others do not nesicerily subscribe to it, nor would I expect them too.
It really is too much asking in a general forum that all of us obey some unwritten law of curtersie, and then makeing noise when it doesn't happen.

*Shrug* disagreement, rudness, and mockery are all part and parcel of places like heres, get used to it or bugger orf! Heh the choice is yours.;)

I believe in God and He doesn't talk to me. :(

Obviously you're not praying loud enough then. ;)

I agree with you, good manners derserve a show of good manners back.

Yet that is my belife, others do not nesicerily subscribe to it, nor would I expect them too.
It really is too much asking in a general forum that all of us obey some unwritten law of curtersie, and then makeing noise when it doesn't happen.

*Shrug* disagreement, rudness, and mockery are all part and parcel of places like heres, get used to it or bugger orf! Heh the choice is yours.;)

You know, I kinda agree. And I haven't taken part in a lot of the dickery that just went on in this thread. At the same time though, Zilam has shown a tendency to drop into NSG with a new thread every time he either has a revelation on his future or some esoteric interaction with the divine. It gets a bit old, and a bit bloggy, and he really sets himself up to be torn to shreds by the skeptics and mockers.

On the one hand, more power to him for his faith. On the other hand, a lot of the flak he takes is justified. No one likes a street preacher, least of all one who has shown time and again a need to blog on NSG (The "I'm going to be a missionary" and "I'm going to join the army" threads come to mind, to say the least)

Edit: And I get the impression that a lot of the really irate and snarky atheists on here are by and large projecting onto Zilam all the qualities that either drove them away from faith, or are attacking Zilam in response to victimization in their own personal lives. It doesn't make it right, but it's understandable.

Obviously you're not praying loud enough then. ;)

Fucker has me on ignore :(

...God I mean, not Terrorem.

Fucker has me on ignore :(

...God I mean, not Terrorem.

No, God's inbox bandwidth has exceed its infinite bandwidth for eternity. And his voice mail is broken. ;)

Fucker has me on ignore :(

...God I mean, not Terrorem.

Huh you Mirc with God?

You know, I kinda agree. And I haven't taken part in a lot of the dickery that just went on in this thread. At the same time though, Zilam has shown a tendency to drop into NSG with a new thread every time he either has a revelation on his future or some esoteric interaction with the divine. It gets a bit old, and a bit bloggy, and he really sets himself up to be torn to shreds by the skeptics and mockers.

On the one hand, more power to him for his faith. On the other hand, a lot of the flak he takes is justified. No one likes a street preacher, least of all one who has shown time and again a need to blog on NSG (The "I'm going to be a missionary" and "I'm going to join the army" threads come to mind, to say the least)

Edit: And I get the impression that a lot of the really irate and snarky atheists on here are by and large projecting onto Zilam all the qualities that either drove them away from faith, or are attacking Zilam in response to victimization in their own personal lives. It doesn't make it right, but it's understandable.

Well said. Point taken.

No, God's inbox bandwidth has exceed its infinite bandwidth for eternity. And his voice mail is broken. ;)

Ah, that explains it. I thought He was just ignoring my calls. He gets a bit pissy when he loses his shirt at poker to you.

Huh you Mirc with God?

All of Gods Mirc. Even the Evil ones ;)
In fact, Jesus and I had a pretty interesting debate on the effects of sowing misinformation into your follower-base. I'm going to have to apply some of that in the future.

In short, if it's unknowable, and someone on either side presents a statement of belief of their personal knowledge, and does so without outright or deliberate offense to anyone -- as did Zilam -- what is the point of mockery? Surely the only reason to shred such an inoffensive post is to make yourselves feel better about being antitheists. Therefore, if tearing down another person's epiphany is a way of reinforcing your beliefs, whose belief (or absence thereof) is more deserving of mockery?

I'm not advocating censorship, but rather sensitivity when and where it is called for. Had Zilam stated that his epiphany included the complete damnation of all non-believers, homosexuals, Liberals, and so forth (as a few who post in General occasionally profess), then, by all means, fire away -- that particular poster is getting what he deserves.

Zilam attacked nobody.

And that's all.
I concur wholeheartedly!! ;)

Something great has happened to me! I have been given a chance to testify to those around me of God's eternal love. After long periods of prayer, and soul on the brink of breaking down into despair, last night God answered many of my long awaited prayers seemingly all at once.

For instance, I was very worried about finances for my schooling, and apartment for this year, and well I prayed for a blessing, and prayed and prayed some more. Last night, at around 7 pm, my father called and told me that if was available to watch my cousin harold(he had a stroke and requires constant care) for a week, during my dad's wedding and honey moon, then he'd give me the money that he is paid to watch him. That is nearly a thousand dollars. That covers my books and my apartment! And since i receive the Illinois MAP grant, most of my tuition is paid off. How amazing for that! By allowing me to get the funds, i get to go back to school, and ultimately back to the campus church, where i have grown exponentially in the past year. Sure to some it seems that it is a nice coincidence. But guess what? there is more!

As many as you know, I plan on going into the mission field after i get done with school, specifically to Lebanon, and more than likely, Palestinian territories as well. Well, I really have this desire to go and show Christ's love to the people in need of hope, but I had no idea how to start it, what to do, who to contact etc etc. So i prayed for God to show me a way and so on. Well, i had almost all but given up on the idea of going over there period as it was useless since I had no idea of anything. But again God has other plans. Last night, I log onto a christian forum and the first thing i see if a girl my age looking for help on what to do regarding a mission field towards people of the middle east. Not only that, but I got an email from a gal in Lebanon, saying that she was more than willing to get me all the info I want, and to get me contacts.

Finally, Last night, although i was excited to hear such good news, i was still kind of down, because I realized that I suck a lot of times, emulating Christ, as I should. I mean you can even see that on here, when I have been hateful to someone like Fass, for example. I don't want to be that though, ya know? I want to be an example, and well, all those thoughts of people I rubbed the wrong way, brought me down, because I wasn't able to show them the truth of Christ. Well, I was praying, and asking God to heal my hurt heart, and to raise me up from that despair, and, I swear on my life and those that I love the most, two or three minutes I got an email from a random gentlemen, saying :



I was in shock! I replied telling him how i was praying for something just like that, and he replied back to me:



I mean, how would a total stranger, who was just happening to pray at the same time as I, know to contact me, and give an answer to that last prayer? There is no way that it was by luck, accident, or coincidence. It has to be God. There is no other way to it.

Now what does this mean? For me, a lot. I kind of feel renewed, and more faithful to God now. Sometimes, as believers we get bogged down because it seems like He isn't working miracles in our lives. But I am here to testify that He is alive and He is still working Miracles.

To ensure that this thread will not be reported for spam/ being a blog, I ask of you NSG, is this coincidence, or not? If you are a believer, what can you testify to God doing for you as of late? As always, keep it cordial, and free of flames :)

My opinion (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d83/that1guy86/118356905021.jpg)

edit: to avoid spam.

yeah... (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d83/that1guy86/118356905021.jpg)why not post it?
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d83/that1guy86/118356905021.jpg

why not post it?
[IMG]http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d83/that1guy86/118356905021.jpg[IMG]

Because it adds nothing to the discussion and insults people?

why not post it?
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d83/that1guy86/118356905021.jpg

Because I like to add a catchy phrase before people must click it.

why not post it?

Because it's too true...

Because it adds nothing to the discussion and insults people?

... see?

Because it adds nothing to the discussion and insults people?

Why is it insulting? What about it wasn't true?

"Its not what he said but how he said it" I assume

You can give me all the dictionary meanings you want. I know religion though, i used to be a religionist. It got me no where. But I cast it aside for a new way of life, and things are changing rapidly and for the better. Its not my fault that people are blind to see how God works.
This is why I don't like Jesus' fan club. Holier-than-thou shit blaming the people who didn't drink the kool aid for being unable to see the obvious. :rolleyes: Seriously, do you not see how terribly condescending you are?

Also, an inability to properly understand statistics and selectively interpreting one's data != god.

Why is it insulting? What about it wasn't true?

"Its not what he said but how he said it" I assume

It is completely factual. But that is not the point. Is it insulting because it is reductionist. It's like telling a gay man that his life is simply about sucking cock. At certain instances, this may be a factual description, but it renders all other aspects of his life meaningless.

Now tell me, how does this image add to the discussion?

Heresy, because it's contrary to dogma and a dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice, and blasphemy because it shows contempt or lack of reverence for God. Don't think it matters one iota to me, but you are resorting to both in your unwillingness to accept omnipotence; having absolute power over all.

What the fuck does that have to do with creating paradoxes? Nothing.

It is completely factual. But that is not the point. Is it insulting because it is reductionist. It's like telling a gay man that his life is simply about sucking cock. At certain instances, this may be a factual description, but it renders all other aspects of his life meaningless.

Now tell me, how does this image add to the discussion?

It's much more like saying to a gay man that his attraction to men rather than women is what makes him gay

It's much more like saying to a gay man that his attraction to men rather than women is what makes him gay

No, I do not think that would be an apt comparison. If you were to define Christianity that way to any Christian, they would probably be insulted. If you said that to a gay man, I think they would just tell you that you are pointing out the obvious.

But if you can't see what's reductionist and insulting about that image, I don't think I can help you understand.

No, I do not think that would be an apt comparison. If you were to define Christianity that way to any Christian, they would probably be insulted. If you said that to a gay man, I think they would just tell you that you are pointing out the obvious.

But if you can't see what's reductionist and insulting about that image, I don't think I can help you understand.

I was comparing a basic definition of homosexual men with a basic definition of christianity. My suspicion is that it is the wording itself which you find insulting such as the use of words such as zombie, etc which are generally only used in fiction. That is the point itself. The implication that Christianity is a based on fiction is what I think insults people.

You do strive to become better, but it is impossible to become like him, IE Sinless.
I'm sinless!

I have a different definition of sin than christians use though... :p

I was comparing a basic definition of homosexual men with a basic definition of christianity. My suspicion is that it is the wording itself which you find insulting such as the use of words such as zombie, etc which are generally only used in fiction. That is the point itself. The implication that Christianity is a based on fiction is what I think insults people.

Yes, that is also insulting. Thank you for pointing out how this image detracts from the discussion in yet one more manner.

I don't think that that image and its caption comprise a 'basic definition of Christianity'. A basic definition of Christianity is something like this: a belief that Jesus Christ is the Messiah of Judaic mythology.

Again, how does that image and its caption add to the discussion?

What the fuck does that have to do with creating paradoxes? Nothing.

If there is something a being cannot do, it is not omnipotent. Some things cannot be done - no being can thus truly be omnipotent, but the Christian deity is supposed to be according to their zaniness. Now, the poster I was replying to was trying to redefine what omnipotence was in a desperate attempt to try to have his cake and eat it, too; to get to claim that the Christian deity was omnipotent, even though he realises that it is a ludicrous notion.

So, really, I would appreciate it if you actually did not respond to my posts in the future when you so clearly have not read the context they have been written in. I will automatically ignore you when it is apparent that your response is as inconsequential to what I wrote as most of yours have been so far, including this one. Just an FYI, because I am tired of dandling and coddling your constant irrelevance.

I don't think that that image and its caption comprise a 'basic definition of Christianity'. A basic definition of Christianity is something like this: a belief that Jesus Christ is the Messiah of Judaic mythology.

Again, how does that image and its caption add to the discussion?

You're right that this is a bit of a thread jack so i'll stop however I believe your definition is just the same as the one in the caption, but using less controversial wording. Why is that wording controversial though? Is it simply that someone thinks that Christianity is based on fictional events? Why should that be insulting to you? Plenty of people have differing hypotheses about a wide variety of subjects and they can happily dispute the truth behind the others. No-one gets overly offended by that

You're right that this is a bit of a thread jack so i'll stop however I believe your definition is just the same as the one in the caption, but using less controversial wording. Why is that wording controversial though? Is it simply that someone thinks that Christianity is based on fictional events? Why should that be insulting to you? Plenty of people have differing hypotheses about a wide variety of subjects and they can happily dispute the truth behind the others. No-one gets overly offended by that

It is not simply that someone thinks that Christianity is based on fictional events. Nor is it insulting to me, as I am not a Christian.

Like I said, if you can't figure out what's insulting about that caption, I can't help you. It seems like it would be obvious, but whatever.

It is not simply that someone thinks that Christianity is based on fictional events. Nor is it insulting to me, as I am not a Christian.

Like I said, if you can't figure out what's insulting about that caption, I can't help you. It seems like it would be obvious, but whatever.

I can see why some would see it as insulting but I think that their feeling of being insulted is based on an incorrect view of things. That is all

Because it adds nothing to the discussion and insults people?People who consider themselves insulted by facts very well deserve to be insulted. They might even deserve further punishment.

People who consider themselves insulted by facts very well deserve to be insulted.

You're probably correct. If anyone knows about everything about being insulting to Christians. it's you.

You're probably correct. If anyone knows about everything about being insulting to Christians. it's you.With no biblical god existing, clearly everybody believing in such a god in spite of the (obvious) facts is delusional. But that's again only insulting if you consider facts insulting.
And really, if the biblical god does exist, then why has nobody believed in him prior to fivehundredsomething BCE ?

With no biblical god existing, clearly everybody believing in such a god in spite of the (obvious) facts is delusional. But that's again only insulting if you consider facts insulting.
And really, if the biblical god does exist, then why has nobody believed in him prior to fivehundredsomething BCE ?

Please point to one fact that disproves the existence of the Biblical God. The best you can do is to disprove some aspect of him that is accorded to him by Christain theology, or disprove the literal truth of a Bible story. Big deal. I could do that when I was fourteen.

You cannot logically disprove the existence of a being that can exist outside of logic. Or maybe you can. You're welcome to try. Until then, any ranting you may do about what is delusional or not is simply your opinion.

Please point to one fact that disproves the existence of the Biblical God. The best you can do is to disprove some aspect of him that is accorded to him by Christain theology, or disprove the literal truth of a Bible story. Big deal. I could do that when I was fourteen.

You cannot logically disprove the existence of a being that can exist outside of logic. Or maybe you can. You're welcome to try. Until then, any ranting you may do about what is delusional or not is simply your opinion.

So it is as equally likely that there is a god than not is what you're saying?

And i'll add in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BcqG8xrMRc because of your asking God to be disproved

So it is as equally likely that there is a god than not is what you're saying?

For the purposes of intelligent discussion, yes. A belief in God can be just as logical or idiotic as a belief in a lack of god.

EDIT: Sorry, don't have a sound card. Don't watch YouTube.

Please point to one fact that disproves the existence of the Biblical God. The best you can do is to disprove some aspect of him that is accorded to him by Christain theology, or disprove the literal truth of a Bible story. Big deal. I could do that when I was fourteen.

You cannot logically disprove the existence of a being that can exist outside of logic. Or maybe you can. You're welcome to try. Until then, any ranting you may do about what is delusional or not is simply your opinion.
Show me that anyone, any one in ancient times worshiped the biblical god, and that it was not later made up by Jewish "scholars". One artifact, one piece of text, anything. Any confirmation of anything that the bible claims about people's beliefs in the Middle East in the pre-Persian era. There is nothing, not the tiniest trace.
Asking me to disprove the biblical God is like asking me to disprove the existence of Harry Potter. Both are fabricated characters in books, and nobody had ever heard of the two characters before the respective books were written.
Well, there has been a prototype for the biblical god, good old Enki, but we all know that's not the same.

Show me that anyone, any one in ancient times worshiped the biblical god, and that it was not later made up by Jewish "scholars". One artifact, one piece of text, anything. Any confirmation of anything that the bible claims about people's beliefs in the Middle East in the pre-Persian era. There is nothing, not the tiniest trace.
Asking me to disprove the biblical God is like asking me to disprove the existence of Harry Potter. Both are fabricated characters in books, and nobody had ever heard of the two characters before the respective books were written.

Wow, that proof really sucked. Honestly. That was abysmal.

Did gravity exist before the idea of it was written in a book? Did human beings exist before there was any mention of them in any text anywhere? Of course they did. Coud god do the same thing? Yes.

The cute catchphrase for remembering it is this: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Wow, that proof really sucked. Honestly. That was abysmal.

Did gravity exist before the idea of it was written in a book? Did human beings exist before there was any mention of them in any text anywhere? Of course they did. Coud god do the same thing? Yes.

The cute catchphrase for remembering it is this: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Show me anything, then we'll talk. There is tons of evidence showing people's religions in the area at issue, but biblical stuff is not among it. This is not absence of evidence for the biblical god, it is abundance of evidence against. Again: show me anything. Anything that gives a hint that the bible is not lying. Humans could write, they could build, they made art, and what they have made we can see today. But out of chance nothing has remained to give substance to the biblical theology? Curious.
Did gravity exist before the idea of it was written in a book? What a rubbishy question. Did Harry Potter exist before the idea of it was written in a book?

Show me anything, then we'll talk. There is tons of evidence showing people's religions in the area at issue, but biblical stuff is not among it. This is not absence of evidence for the biblical god, it is abundance of evidence against. Again: show me anything. Anything that gives a hint that the bible is not lying. Humans could write, they could build, they made art, and what they have made we can see today. But out of chance nothing has remained to give substance to the biblical theology? Curious.
Did gravity exist before the idea of it was written in a book? What a rubbishy question. Did Harry Potter exist before the idea of it was written in a book?

Why should I show you anything? I don't care if you believe in Christianity or not. I asked you to provide me proof that the Biblical God does not exist. You have not done that. At all.

Why should I show you anything? I don't care if you believe in Christianity or not. I asked you to provide me proof that the Biblical God does not exist. You have not done that. At all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

Show me anything, then we'll talk. There is tons of evidence showing people's religions in the area at issue, but biblical stuff is not among it. This is not absence of evidence for the biblical god, it is abundance of evidence against. Again: show me anything. Anything that gives a hint that the bible is not lying. Humans could write, they could build, they made art, and what they have made we can see today. But out of chance nothing has remained to give substance to the biblical theology? Curious.
Did gravity exist before the idea of it was written in a book? What a rubbishy question. Did Harry Potter exist before the idea of it was written in a book?

No - he's right.

You claim an absence of evidence. You say there is nothing before 500BC-something.

Even if this is true (and it isn't true - you can't PROVE there is no earlier evidence... only that we don't have it)... it doesn't prove the absence of 'god'... just the absence of evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

That doesn't disprove God exists. It just shows how dumb it is to ask for proof either way. This is what I am trying to point out.

I know I can't provide proof for god's existence. Why can't you just admit that you can't prove his lack of existence either?

That doesn't disprove God exists. It just shows how dumb it is to ask for proof either way. This is what I am trying to point out.

I know I can't provide proof for god's existence. Why can't you just admit that you can't prove his lack of existence either?

You seem to think that there is an equal chance of Gods existence and his existence being fiction. It's just not a 50/50 split

No - he's right.

Sorry to be a weird nitpicker, but can you please not assume that I am male?

Thank you.

You seem to think that there is an equal chance of Gods existence and his existence being fiction. It's just not a 50/50 split

I'm not saying it is. I'm saying it's foolish to assume we know what the percentages are. Even if we did know, it still wouldn't disprove the remote possibility that the weirdest Christian cult out there just may be right.

Sorry to be a weird nitpicker, but can you please not assume that I am male?

Thank you.

Sure. I've seen no reason to assume you were female, but I'll certainly take your preference on board. It's nothing personal - it's projection. I am male, so I assume that every non-specific text I see is male, because I read it in my voice.

Why is it you're crazy unless the invisible guy who talks to you has a book?

I'm not saying it is. I'm saying it's foolish to assume we know what the percentages are. Even if we did know, it still wouldn't disprove the remote possibility that the weirdest Christian cult out there just may be right.

The problem is, it still doesn't make it just as reasonable to believe in it. For example, theoretically, gravity could possibly be false. Maybe tomorrow, we'll all start floating away from the planet. Would you say that it's at all rational to believe this, then, because you really can't disprove it? Of course not! You would, or so I assume, call anybody who believed this mad! Why, then, is it sensible to believe in the Christian mythology, just because you cannot 100% disprove it?

The cute catchphrase for remembering it is this: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Cute, but inaccurate. A better phrase would be "Absence of evidence is not proof of absence."

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence; the strength of that evidence depends on the context: if you're looking for a rampaging herd of elephants in central London and find no sign of them then that's very strong evidence that there isn't a herd of rampaging elephants in central London, if you're looking for the remains of one man who supposedly died while trying to cross the Sahara desert then a lack of evidence isn't particularly strong evidence for his non-existence.

Sure. I've seen no reason to assume you were female, but I'll certainly take your preference on board. It's nothing personal - it's projection. I am male, so I assume that every non-specific text I see is male, because I read it in my voice.

Funny, I always mentally read things out from you people in Kiera Knightley's voice unless I know you're male.

Gift-of-God: It's incorrect to suggest that Russel's Teapot shows it to be wrong to ask for evidence either way. What it does show is that someone making a positive assertion must provide evidence for that assertion's truth, not the other way around.

So one must provide proof that God exists, or assume that all things imaginable must exist as well, for lack of proof otherwise.

So much for, "we only attack christians when they attack us" :rolleyes:

:p

So that this post is worthwhile, I have decded to say in a pompous voice 'You (one) cannot prove a negative'. Like, I cannot prove that there are no pixies making your car work for you, but I can (theoretically!) explain how your engine works without resorting to the realm of bedtime stories.

Something great has happened to me! I have been given a chance to testify to those around me of God's eternal love. After long periods of prayer, and soul on the brink of breaking down into despair, last night God answered many of my long awaited prayers seemingly all at once.

For instance, I was very worried about finances for my schooling, and apartment for this year, and well I prayed for a blessing, and prayed and prayed some more. Last night, at around 7 pm, my father called and told me that if was available to watch my cousin harold(he had a stroke and requires constant care) for a week, during my dad's wedding and honey moon, then he'd give me the money that he is paid to watch him. That is nearly a thousand dollars. That covers my books and my apartment! And since i receive the Illinois MAP grant, most of my tuition is paid off. How amazing for that! By allowing me to get the funds, i get to go back to school, and ultimately back to the campus church, where i have grown exponentially in the past year. Sure to some it seems that it is a nice coincidence. But guess what? there is more!

As many as you know, I plan on going into the mission field after i get done with school, specifically to Lebanon, and more than likely, Palestinian territories as well. Well, I really have this desire to go and show Christ's love to the people in need of hope, but I had no idea how to start it, what to do, who to contact etc etc. So i prayed for God to show me a way and so on. Well, i had almost all but given up on the idea of going over there period as it was useless since I had no idea of anything. But again God has other plans. Last night, I log onto a christian forum and the first thing i see if a girl my age looking for help on what to do regarding a mission field towards people of the middle east. Not only that, but I got an email from a gal in Lebanon, saying that she was more than willing to get me all the info I want, and to get me contacts.

Finally, Last night, although i was excited to hear such good news, i was still kind of down, because I realized that I suck a lot of times, emulating Christ, as I should. I mean you can even see that on here, when I have been hateful to someone like Fass, for example. I don't want to be that though, ya know? I want to be an example, and well, all those thoughts of people I rubbed the wrong way, brought me down, because I wasn't able to show them the truth of Christ. Well, I was praying, and asking God to heal my hurt heart, and to raise me up from that despair, and, I swear on my life and those that I love the most, two or three minutes I got an email from a random gentlemen, saying :



I was in shock! I replied telling him how i was praying for something just like that, and he replied back to me:



I mean, how would a total stranger, who was just happening to pray at the same time as I, know to contact me, and give an answer to that last prayer? There is no way that it was by luck, accident, or coincidence. It has to be God. There is no other way to it.

Now what does this mean? For me, a lot. I kind of feel renewed, and more faithful to God now. Sometimes, as believers we get bogged down because it seems like He isn't working miracles in our lives. But I am here to testify that He is alive and He is still working Miracles.

To ensure that this thread will not be reported for spam/ being a blog, I ask of you NSG, is this coincidence, or not? If you are a believer, what can you testify to God doing for you as of late? As always, keep it cordial, and free of flames :)

I got it too - it was addressed to "Occupant" :p
It was postmarked from Max Barry. :eek:

Wasn't the OP going on about how awful organized religion was a few days ago?

Wasn't the OP going on about how awful organized religion was a few days ago?My God man, surely you're not implying this topic reeks of identity crisis?

Something great has happened to me! I have been given a chance to testify to those around me of God's eternal love. After long periods of prayer, and soul on the brink of breaking down into despair, last night God answered many of my long awaited prayers seemingly all at once.

For instance, I was very worried about finances for my schooling, and apartment for this year, and well I prayed for a blessing, and prayed and prayed some more. Last night, at around 7 pm, my father called and told me that if was available to watch my cousin harold(he had a stroke and requires constant care) for a week, during my dad's wedding and honey moon, then he'd give me the money that he is paid to watch him. That is nearly a thousand dollars. That covers my books and my apartment! And since i receive the Illinois MAP grant, most of my tuition is paid off. How amazing for that! By allowing me to get the funds, i get to go back to school, and ultimately back to the campus church, where i have grown exponentially in the past year. Sure to some it seems that it is a nice coincidence. But guess what? there is more!

As many as you know, I plan on going into the mission field after i get done with school, specifically to Lebanon, and more than likely, Palestinian territories as well. Well, I really have this desire to go and show Christ's love to the people in need of hope, but I had no idea how to start it, what to do, who to contact etc etc. So i prayed for God to show me a way and so on. Well, i had almost all but given up on the idea of going over there period as it was useless since I had no idea of anything. But again God has other plans. Last night, I log onto a christian forum and the first thing i see if a girl my age looking for help on what to do regarding a mission field towards people of the middle east. Not only that, but I got an email from a gal in Lebanon, saying that she was more than willing to get me all the info I want, and to get me contacts.

Finally, Last night, although i was excited to hear such good news, i was still kind of down, because I realized that I suck a lot of times, emulating Christ, as I should. I mean you can even see that on here, when I have been hateful to someone like Fass, for example. I don't want to be that though, ya know? I want to be an example, and well, all those thoughts of people I rubbed the wrong way, brought me down, because I wasn't able to show them the truth of Christ. Well, I was praying, and asking God to heal my hurt heart, and to raise me up from that despair, and, I swear on my life and those that I love the most, two or three minutes I got an email from a random gentlemen, saying :

You will most certainly come into your full potential in serving Jesus, as it is He that is bringing you along into what He has already planned and set into motion.

I know that You are having a definite impact on friends and family alike, especially in the Spirit, He is affecting their souls, and hearts and minds through you, in ways that even they do not quite recognize yet.

In all of this, and especially your overwhelming Love for Him, your Great Gratitude.....He is So Glorified Already. He Loves you So Much that He cannot take His eyes off of You.
He is So Pleased with You, and You bring Such Joy to His Heart Day and Night.

Be Very Encouraged Thomas, you are His Faithful and Precious Child!

I was in shock! I replied telling him how i was praying for something just like that, and he replied back to me:

Thomas, I Just felt that I needed to write to you in that moment, and the words just seemed to flow out.

It most surely Is Him!

Write back whenever you like.

I mean, how would a total stranger, who was just happening to pray at the same time as I, know to contact me, and give an answer to that last prayer? There is no way that it was by luck, accident, or coincidence. It has to be God. There is no other way to it.

Now what does this mean? For me, a lot. I kind of feel renewed, and more faithful to God now. Sometimes, as believers we get bogged down because it seems like He isn't working miracles in our lives. But I am here to testify that He is alive and He is still working Miracles.

To ensure that this thread will not be reported for spam/ being a blog, I ask of you NSG, is this coincidence, or not? If you are a believer, what can you testify to God doing for you as of late? As always, keep it cordial, and free of flames :)

Gah, why does all this super-religious talk always have to sound so ridiculously sanctimonious and antiquated? And do you really Need to Capitalize to Make It even More so?

Gah, why does all this super-religious talk always have to sound so ridiculously sanctimonious and antiquated? And do you really Need to Capitalize to Make It even More so?

Being religious talk and all, doesn't it kinda beg the whole "sanctimonious/antiquated" approach?
:)

As far as the capitalization, perhaps that's homage to Ritlina.

Why should I show you anything? I don't care if you believe in Christianity or not. I asked you to provide me proof that the Biblical God does not exist. You have not done that. At all.
And I ask you to prove that there isn't an invisible leprachaun sitting on my shoulder at the moment whispering all the secrets of the universe in my ear.

Dear shithead,
This isn't happening;
The sky is really falling,
The paint's all made of lead,
There's asbestos in the walls,
Hell's coming to rip off the doors
To your priveleged heaven.
Do you want to love and feel it?
You can look but you can't taste it.
You can reach but you'll never have it.
We are untouchable;
Untouchable is something to be.

Can anybody tell me why God won't speak to me?
Why Jesus never called on me to part the fucking seas?
Why death is easier than living?
You can be almost anything
When you're on your fucking knees.
Not today,
Not my son,
Not my family,
Not while walking is still honest,
And you haven't given up on me,
And you haven't given up on me,
And you haven't forgotten me...

If there is something a being cannot do, it is not omnipotent. Some things cannot be done - no being can thus truly be omnipotent, but the Christian deity is supposed to be according to their zaniness. Now, the poster I was replying to was trying to redefine what omnipotence was in a desperate attempt to try to have his cake and eat it, too; to get to claim that the Christian deity was omnipotent, even though he realises that it is a ludicrous notion.

So, really, I would appreciate it if you actually did not respond to my posts in the future when you so clearly have not read the context they have been written in. I will automatically ignore you when it is apparent that your response is as inconsequential to what I wrote as most of yours have been so far, including this one. Just an FYI, because I am tired of dandling and coddling your constant irrelevance.

I understood the context, and you miss my point. I bolded your part, because the point was, as you showed, that it never actually uses the term omnipotent in the Bible. The poster never claimed he was omnipotent in the strict definition you adhere to, and he is right whether or not there is no other definition of omnipotence. So arguing about what omnipotence actually means is irellavent to the point, and absurd to accuse him of heresy and blasphemy.

I was comparing a basic definition of homosexual men with a basic definition of christianity. My suspicion is that it is the wording itself which you find insulting such as the use of words such as zombie, etc which are generally only used in fiction. That is the point itself. The implication that Christianity is a based on fiction is what I think insults people.

Christ wasn't a zombie. Once risen, he kept rising and sat at the Right Hand of God, so we're told. Were he a zombie, he'd have lumbered around, half-decayed, looking for a few brains to eat -- surely THAT would have made ONE of the Gospels?

Dear shithead
*snip the childish ranting*


Wow. With lyrics that bad, I'd hate to hear the song. Sometimes the only thing worse than "Christian contemporary" is "atheist/emo/goth contemporary". *shudder*

Christ wasn't a zombie. Once risen, he kept rising and sat at the Right Hand of God, so we're told. Were he a zombie, he'd have lumbered around, half-decayed, looking for a few brains to eat -- surely THAT would have made ONE of the Gospels?

zombi: a dead body that has been brought back to life by a supernatural force

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

I don't see anything about the characteristics of the body once it has returned to life

"atheist/emo/goth contemporary"

That is definitely the stupidest amalgamation I've seen in a long time.

This thread is disappointing because it is not about Michael Vaughan.

Not to burst your bubble, or anything, but I get random emails that say stuff like that all the time. It's some weird missionary thing that some organizations do. They send me these emails telling me how God loves me and has a plan for me and I'm destined to do great things and yada yada. They're automated, in most cases.

It's an effective way to win people over. Most people like hearing that they're special and important and there's a giant invisible force on their side. Flattery works on most people more than they would like to admit. As somebody who once worked in retail, let me assure you that flattery is a fantastic way to sell things.

It's an effective way to win people over. Most people like hearing that they're special and important and there's a giant invisible force on their side. Flattery works on most people more than they would like to admit. As somebody who once worked in retail, let me assure you that flattery is a fantastic way to sell things.

That's because people, even the most modest respond to flattery because our egos like to be stroked and our egos demand attention.

Christ wasn't a zombie. Once risen, he kept rising and sat at the Right Hand of God, so we're told. Were he a zombie, he'd have lumbered around, half-decayed, looking for a few brains to eat -- surely THAT would have made ONE of the Gospels?

Not true. Once risen, the 'dead' body (apparently) wandered around for a while, still bearing the fatal wounds. That certainly fits in with some definitions of what constitutes a 'zombie'.

Curiously, the whole eating brains thing is a very thin sub section of the zombie mythos.

Christ wasn't a zombie. Once risen, he kept rising and sat at the Right Hand of God, so we're told. Were he a zombie, he'd have lumbered around, half-decayed, looking for a few brains to eat -- surely THAT would have made ONE of the Gospels?

He wasn't the only zombie either:

The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

:eek:

I wonder why nobody apart from Matthew thought to mention this sudden influx of the walking dead, were zombie invasions really a common event in ancient Judea?

"Dad! There are zombies outside going through our rubbish bins!"
"Not again! Throw them some brains will you, I can't sleep with all that moaning."

Wow. With lyrics that bad, I'd hate to hear the song. Sometimes the only thing worse than "Christian contemporary" is "atheist/emo/goth contemporary". *shudder*

Atheist =/= Emo

Faith in a god is not a necessity for happiness

And I ask you to prove that there isn't an invisible leprachaun sitting on my shoulder at the moment whispering all the secrets of the universe in my ear.

Pffft you need a book and plenty of followers to be real silly

That is definitely the stupidest amalgamation I've seen in a long time.
Second. And I don't even know what amalgamation is.

Something great has happened to me! I have been given a chance to testify to those around me of God's eternal love. After long periods of prayer, and soul on the brink of breaking down into despair, last night God answered many of my long awaited prayers seemingly all at once.
For instance, I was very worried about finances for my schooling, and apartment for this year, and well I prayed for a blessing, and prayed and prayed some more.

Excuse me, but here seems that you are reducing your deity to someone who "if I pray him a lot he gives me money". Bit demeaning, if you ask me.


Last night, at around 7 pm, my father called and told me that if was available to watch my cousin harold(he had a stroke and requires constant care) for a week, during my dad's wedding and honey moon, then he'd give me the money that he is paid to watch him. That is nearly a thousand dollars.
I thought that good deeds, like helping people in need, should be made for free, not for bucks. Also, I wouldn't accept money as a payment for helping a relative, or a friend, who has had a stroke. If someone offered me money for that, I would just refuse. There are some obligations between relatives, I think.
Also, money... Caesaris Caesarem.


Sure to some it seems that it is a nice coincidence.

Yes, it does.


As many as you know, I plan on going into the mission field after i get done with school, specifically to Lebanon, and more than likely, Palestinian territories as well. Well, I really have this desire to go and show Christ's love to the people in need of hope, but I had no idea how to start it, what to do, who to contact etc etc. So i prayed for God to show me a way and so on.

Going to help people in need is a good thing. May I suggest you to show them Christ's love for them without looking too militant, if you catch my meaning. Do it by your example, not by preaching. My two cents, of course.

Also, Internet and Google are usually helpful when looking for NGOs and things like that.


Well, i had almost all but given up on the idea of going over there period as it was useless since I had no idea of anything. But again God has other plans.
Do you think that "God's plan" has pre-determined your life - and, like yours, the life of every other human? In this case, where is the merit of being a good person - letting alone being a believer?


Finally, Last night, although i was excited to hear such good news, i was still kind of down, because I realized that I suck a lot of times, emulating Christ, as I should. I mean you can even see that on here, when I have been hateful to someone like Fass, for example. I don't want to be that though, ya know? I want to be an example, and well, all those thoughts of people I rubbed the wrong way, brought me down, because I wasn't able to show them the truth of Christ.

I think that it is ok to be sorry of being excessively tough - but not because you "failed to emulate Christ" - incidentally, Jesus wasn't exactly always soft-spoken, was he? Think of the episode of the merchants at the Temple - but because you were too tough to some other fellow humans who maybe didn't deserve that.


There is no way that it was by luck, accident, or coincidence. It has to be God. There is no other way to it.

So, basically, whenever something makes you happy, you say that it has to come from God. This clearly shows faith. But what about the things that make you sad?
Remember, there are millions of people on the Internet - and in different time zones to boot. Again, remember, in a broader meaning, Deo Dei, Caesaris Caesarem.


Now what does this mean? For me, a lot. I kind of feel renewed, and more faithful to God now. Sometimes, as believers we get bogged down because it seems like He isn't working miracles in our lives. But I am here to testify that He is alive and He is still working Miracles.
If you are a Christian, the mere existance of the Universe and Life should be enough to you.
As for non-believers, you know, it is quite impossible to communicate to someone else a mystical experience - for this is what you experienced, isn't it? "Mystic" - same root of "mystery".

So, really, I'm happy that you're feeling better, and I'm sure that you'll be doing the right thing by helping people who are in need, but this won't make any non-believer, like me, believe. Religion is quite a personal business, you see.

:)

I despise missionaries for their arrogance.

I despise missionaries for their arrogance.

They can be quite militant. But they'd never admit it because to them, everyone who stands in their way is militant and they are merely "humble" servants of God, who just want to "spread the love"* of Jesus.

* open for interpretation.

That's because people, even the most modest respond to flattery because our egos like to be stroked and our egos demand attention.

Not ME! I'm the MOST modest of all! Flattery doesn't work on me! No one can beat me at being modest...

...oh wait, damn.;)

The problem is, it still doesn't make it just as reasonable to believe in it. For example, theoretically, gravity could possibly be false. Maybe tomorrow, we'll all start floating away from the planet. Would you say that it's at all rational to believe this, then, because you really can't disprove it? Of course not! You would, or so I assume, call anybody who believed this mad! Why, then, is it sensible to believe in the Christian mythology, just because you cannot 100% disprove it?

I am not saying it is sensible to believe in the Christian mythology. Nor did I say it was just as reasonable to believe in the Christian god as it is to believe in science. I am pointing out that it is ludicrous to dismiss Christianity, or any other spirituality, as delusional because it deals with beings that exist outside of logic. Your opinion as to the existence of god may be more rational or logical than someone else's, but it still carries an element of faith. The only position that has no faith or blind belief is to admit that we do not know.

Cute, but inaccurate. A better phrase would be "Absence of evidence is not proof of absence."

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence; the strength of that evidence depends on the context: if you're looking for a rampaging herd of elephants in central London and find no sign of them then that's very strong evidence that there isn't a herd of rampaging elephants in central London, if you're looking for the remains of one man who supposedly died while trying to cross the Sahara desert then a lack of evidence isn't particularly strong evidence for his non-existence.

If you wish to discuss the semantic difference between proof and evidence, have a ball.

The context of this discussion: does the Christian god exist? is what, exactly? The discussion demands proof of a being that lives outside of all reality as we know it, defies the laws of said reality, and can change any and all of reality at any moment. I think it's safe to say that any discussions we have about such a being could not possibly embrace the scope of such a being.

Gift-of-God: It's incorrect to suggest that Russel's Teapot shows it to be wrong to ask for evidence either way. What it does show is that someone making a positive assertion must provide evidence for that assertion's truth, not the other way around.

So one must provide proof that God exists, or assume that all things imaginable must exist as well, for lack of proof otherwise.

I can agree with that. However, my assertion is that it is impossible to make any definite statement about the Christian god. I can provide logical proof for that assertion. Anyone who claims that they can make a definite statement about the Christian god (e.g. he does not exist) should also pony up. I like you, Deus Malum. You're calm.

And I ask you to prove that there isn't an invisible leprachaun sitting on my shoulder at the moment whispering all the secrets of the universe in my ear.

I can't. No one can make any definite assertions about the supernatural. The most I can say is that the concensus of observations by third party observers shows no evidence of such a being.

Anyone who claims that they can make a definite statement about the Christian god (e.g. he does not exist) should also pony up.
No. Whoever makes an affirmative definitive statement should pony up.
1) You have to prove an affirmative statement. How do you prove a negative statement? Especially if the affirmative hasn't bee proved.
2) Ok, I will pony up. Occam's Razor. Where's my prize money?

I've asked him before about the nature of his "mission" and whether or not it was going to be like this lot
http://www.cpt.org/
in the hope that he might do some good.

The lack of an answer, plus his general 'tone' indicate no. So hes going to be just what the middle East needs...another fucking arrogant American with a smug look on his face waving a poxy Bible at them.

No. Whoever makes an affirmative definitive statement should pony up.
1) You have to prove an affirmative statement. How do you prove a negative statement? Especially if the affirmative hasn't bee proved.
2) Ok, I will pony up. Occam's Razor. Where's my prize money?

I will say this one more time, and omly one more time:

I am not making any positive assertions about the existence of the Christian god.

Just for those who didn't get it the first time:

I am not making any positive assertions about the existence of the Christian god.

What I am saying is this: those of us who believe that the Christian god does not exist do so without any proof.

What I am saying is this: those of us who believe that the Christian god does not exist do so without any proof.

and should therefore show respect for those who feel that faith is a virtue?

So much for, "we only attack christians when they attack us" :rolleyes:

Who said that? A preemptive strike reminds Christians their belief system belongs in the fiction section of the library.

I will say this one more time, and omly one more time:

I am not making any positive assertions about the existence of the Christian god.

Just for those who didn't get it the first time:

I am not making any positive assertions about the existence of the Christian god.

What I am saying is this: those of us who believe that the Christian god does not exist do so without any proof.

Obviously you didn't get my damn point.
YOU CAN ONLY PROVE AN AFFIRMATIVE ASSERTION.

You cannot prove "God does not exist" because that is (a)a negative assertion and (b)against Occam's Razor - you would have to create a God to prove it doesn't exist.

Can you prove you don't have 6 fingers? No. To prove that negative assertion, you would have to prove the positive assertion that you have the number of fingers you have that is not 6.

So much for, "we only attack christians when they attack us" :rolleyes:

What is the downside to two sides arguing their points?

Wait a minute, some random stranger knows your name and just happened to email you? Personally, I'd start getting worried at this point.

Here is a guy celebrating his good fortune and revelling in his faith and yet you feel compelled to waste your finite time by declaring how atheist you are?

How mean spirited can you be?
Not to put too fine a point on it, but I've known some drug addicts who were extremely eager to revel in their new-found "consciousness raising" even as they consumed dangerous and physical harmful levels of unsafe, impure compounds.

I've also heard spiels much like the OP from individuals who have recently fallen into cults. These individuals are often euphoric and cannot wait to share the new enlightenment and purpose that has come into their lives. If they are extremely lucky, they may one day be able to thank the people who try desperately to caution them and restrain them from plunging head-long into their newfound "faith."

Just because somebody is super-stoked about something doesn't necessarily make it a good idea.

Wait a minute, some random stranger knows your name and just happened to email you? Personally, I'd start getting worried at this point.
I bet the next email is telling him that the random guy will soon be moving out of the country but can't take his millions with him and he should send him his name, SSN, and bank account information so the guy can send him the money.

I bet the next email is telling him that the random guy will soon be moving out of the country but can't take his millions with him and he should send him his name, SSN, and bank account information so the guy can send him the money.
Bingo.

I don't know the OP, but his self-description makes him sound like an emotionally vulnerable individual who has, unfortunately, been targeted by one of the countless internet scammers out there. These scammers count on people like the OP, people who are so eager to "find God" that they're going to find Him in just about anything with very little prompting. They're already primed to rationalize, so all they need is a little push and they'll be easy pickings.

It's kind of like if the whole world is a Rorschach test; in a great many cases, you'll see exactly what you're looking for.

Obviously you didn't get my damn point.
YOU CAN ONLY PROVE AN AFFIRMATIVE ASSERTION.

You cannot prove "God does not exist" because that is (a)a negative assertion and (b)against Occam's Razor - you would have to create a God to prove it doesn't exist.

Can you prove you don't have 6 fingers? No. To prove that negative assertion, you would have to prove the positive assertion that you have the number of fingers you have that is not 6.

If I show someone I have ten fingers, I can prove the negative statement: I don't have eleven fingers. So you can prove a negative.

You cannot prove the negative assertion that God does not exist. This is not because it is a negative statement. It is relatively easy to prove some negative statements. It is because of the context, as RLI pointed out upthread. In this context, we are dealing with a mystical being who defies logic. Just like you can't prove that the invisible pink unicorn exists, though you can prove that something cannot be invisible and pink at the same time.

Here are some links that discuss this. Oddly enough, both are written by atheists.

http://www.graveyardofthegods.net/articles/cantprovenegative.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/theory.html

If you wish to discuss the semantic difference between proof and evidence, have a ball.

The context of this discussion: does the Christian god exist? is what, exactly? The discussion demands proof of a being that lives outside of all reality as we know it, defies the laws of said reality, and can change any and all of reality at any moment. I think it's safe to say that any discussions we have about such a being could not possibly embrace the scope of such a being.

'Semantic difference'? The two things are completely different. When people say 'the God of Christianity exists as portrayed in the Bible' then they aren't just making vague, metaphysical claims, they're also making claims about past events in the world which can be tested. We now know that the first five books of the Bible have little, if any, foundation in fact. An examination of the NT shows that the various sources are unreliable when it comes to accurately reporting history, and it beggars belief to suppose that a man could do the things that Jesus supposedly did without being mentioned by any writers of the time. So although we don't have 'proof' that the God of Christianity exists, we are supported by shedloads of evidence when we say he doesn't.

'Semantic difference'? The two things are completely different. When people say 'the God of Christianity exists as portrayed in the Bible' then they aren't just making vague, metaphysical claims, they're also making claims about past events in the world which can be tested. We now know that the first five books of the Bible have little, if any, foundation in fact. An examination of the NT shows that the various sources are unreliable when it comes to accurately reporting history, and it beggars belief to suppose that a man could do the things that Jesus supposedly did without being mentioned by any writers of the time. So although we don't have 'proof' that the God of Christianity exists, we are supported by shedloads of evidence when we say he doesn't.
I think this is really just about whether or not credulity is the default state.

In the absence of evidence for something, do you assume the something?

For example: in the absence of evidence that a deer was in your room while you were away, do you automatically assume a deer was in your room while you were away?

Remember, it's possible that a deer WAS in your room, and simply did not leave evidence for any of a range of reasons. You actually don't have any specific evidence that there WASN'T a deer in your room. It's just that you also don't have any evidence that there was a deer.

Most of us don't automatically assume the deer was there, unless there's some particular reason to believe that there was a deer.

When it comes to religion, people who have been steeped in superstition since childhood will often have a credulous default. For them, the assumption is that the deer was in the room, and it will remain thus until there is concrete evidence that a deer was NOT there.

I think this is really just about whether or not credulity is the default state.

In the absence of evidence for something, do you assume the something?

For example: in the absence of evidence that a deer was in your room while you were away, do you automatically assume a deer was in your room while you were away?

Remember, it's possible that a deer WAS in your room, and simply did not leave evidence for any of a range of reasons. You actually don't have any specific evidence that there WASN'T a deer in your room. It's just that you also don't have any evidence that there was a deer.

Most of us don't automatically assume the deer was there, unless there's some particular reason to believe that there was a deer.

When it comes to religion, people who have been steeped in superstition since childhood will often have a credulous default. For them, the assumption is that the deer was in the room, and it will remain thus until there is concrete evidence that a deer was NOT there.

Agreed.

'Semantic difference'? The two things are completely different. When people say 'the God of Christianity exists as portrayed in the Bible' then they aren't just making vague, metaphysical claims, they're also making claims about past events in the world which can be tested. We now know that the first five books of the Bible have little, if any, foundation in fact. An examination of the NT shows that the various sources are unreliable when it comes to accurately reporting history, and it beggars belief to suppose that a man could do the things that Jesus supposedly did without being mentioned by any writers of the time. So although we don't have 'proof' that the God of Christianity exists, we are supported by shedloads of evidence when we say he doesn't.

So, without getting into the historicity of the bible, could you please explain the difference between proof and evidence? because they seem synonymous to me.

To me it seems like we have lots of evidence, or proof, that the Torah is not factually correct when it comes to describing past geological and historical events, like the Flood. This does not really change the fact that there is no evidence for no Christian god. The believer merely needs to assert that the stories are parables in order to maintain a rational worldview. It does not necessarily follow that the Christian god cannot exist.

Bingo.

I don't know the OP, but his self-description makes him sound like an emotionally vulnerable individual who has, unfortunately, been targeted by one of the countless internet scammers out there. These scammers count on people like the OP, people who are so eager to "find God" that they're going to find Him in just about anything with very little prompting. They're already primed to rationalize, so all they need is a little push and they'll be easy pickings.

It's kind of like if the whole world is a Rorschach test; in a great many cases, you'll see exactly what you're looking for.

Zilam has previously been Christian, and suddenly a couple days ago, he started claiming religion was a huge scam, and now he's back the religious side.

Zilam has previously been Christian, and suddenly a couple days ago, he started claiming religion was a huge scam, and now he's back the religious side.
Again, I don't know Zilam, and I am not a mental health professional, so I don't mean to imply that I'm any kind of expert. With that said, however...

I have a lot of life experience with people like this. If somebody is oscillating between extremes a lot, you have to factor that in as you listen to them talk about their current passion. It doesn't mean they're nuts, or even that they're necessarily wrong at all, but you've got to keep your perspective instead of being drawn completely into theirs. They're perspective is likely to be completely different next week. Or even tomorrow.

So, without getting into the historicity of the bible, could you please explain the difference between proof and evidence? because they seem synonymous to me.

It's the difference between science and mathematics. Proof caters for absolute certainty, with no possibility of error (assuming the proof is valid), so I can prove that the square of the hypotenuse is always equal to the sum of the squares on the opposite two sides in all examples of Euclidean geometry. A nice example of evidence is the search for a black swan: if you conjecture that all swans are white, then every white swan you find will serve as evidence for your belief, but even one black swan will completely disprove it. Evidence cannot guarantee universal principles, which is why mathematicians are so wary of it, but it can still be useful.

To me it seems like we have lots of evidence, or proof, that the Torah is not factually correct when it comes to describing past geological and historical events, like the Flood. This does not really change the fact that there is no evidence for no Christian god. The believer merely needs to assert that the stories are parables in order to maintain a rational worldview. It does not necessarily follow that the Christian god cannot exist.

The first problem is that most of the Old Testament doesn't seem to have been written in an obviously metaphorical way. If it was never meant to be taken literally, then why do the authors take so much time over geneologies and the time between the birth of a man and the birth of his sons?

Secondly, although most of the Old Testament can be considered to be allegorical, there are still events which can't really be denied while remaining a Christian. Sure, a Christian doesn't have to believe in the Flood, but if they don't believe in the Ressurection either then it's debatable whether they're still a Christian at all. Some of the key events described in the NT are so extraordinary that it's simply inconceivable that nobody would have thought to mention them, and there are also serious contradictions.

Thirdly, as there's no way to decide whether a passage is to be taken literally or not before examining external evidence, the Liberal Christian is reduced to saying "the Bible is true, let's find out whether it's literally or metaphorically true". I don't think that anyone who assumes the truth of any book without evidence can describe their world view as 'rational'.

As I've already said, I don't consider the existence of the Christian God to be impossible, just very unlikely. I've got to take the dog out for his walk now but I'll try to reply later today or tomorrow. :)

If I show someone I have ten fingers, I can prove the negative statement: I don't have eleven fingers. So you can prove a negative.
You did not prove the negative assertion "I don't have 11 fingers." You proved the positive assertion "I have 10 fingers." In doing so, you "prove" you don't have 11 fingers, or any other number of fingers that is not 10.

Just like you can't prove that the invisible pink unicorn exists, though you can prove that something cannot be invisible and pink at the same time.
That is one of those philosophical questions though, but on the very base of logic, that would be correct. But that is still an affirmative assertion, not a negative one.

It's the difference between science and mathematics. Proof caters for absolute certainty, with no possibility of error (assuming the proof is valid),...A nice example of evidence is the search for a black swan: if you conjecture that all swans are white, then every white swan you find will serve as evidence for your belief...

...As I've already said, I don't consider the existence of the Christian God to be impossible, just very unlikely. I've got to take the dog out for his walk now but I'll try to reply later today or tomorrow. :)

Thanks for the definitions. It seems clearer now. My last math class that involved proofs was in 1991, so I may be a bit rusty. I agree with you about the very tiny likelihood that the Christian god exists. In fact, I am betting my immortal soul on it.

You did not prove the negative assertion "I don't have 11 fingers." You proved the positive assertion "I have 10 fingers." In doing so, you "prove" you don't have 11 fingers, or any other number of fingers that is not 10.


That is one of those philosophical questions though, but on the very base of logic, that would be correct. But that is still an affirmative assertion, not a negative one.

I can prove that five does not equal four. Does that count as a provable negative? I'm kinda getting tired of this, to be honest.

I can prove that five does not equal four. Does that count as a provable negative? I'm kinda getting tired of this, to be honest.
No, but it is really a semantical problem - semantically, you prove a negative, but all your really do is prove what 4 equals.

No, but it is really a semantical problem - semantically, you prove a negative, but all your really do is prove what 4 equals.

Fine. Do it. Show me the mathematical proof.

Fine. Do it. Show me the mathematical proof.
That 4 equals 4? I would but I don't think I'm that far into math yet.

That 4 equals 4? I would but I don't think I'm that far into math yet.

That was actually a trick question. I knew a person who had a Doctorate in mathematics and he said it was very difficult to prove that any number is equal to itself. It is easier, according to him, to prove that it is not equal to any other number.

look at this:

http://home.att.net/~numericana/answer/proof.htm#intro

That was actually a trick question. I knew a person who had a Doctorate in mathematics and he said it was very difficult to prove that any number is equal to itself. It is easier, according to him, to prove that it is not equal to any other number.

look at this:

http://home.att.net/~numericana/answer/proof.htm#intro
Which is why I hate math. What isn't flat out made up doesn't make any sense.

Fine. Do it. Show me the mathematical proof.

You are never proving a negative. You are proving a different positive that contradicts the first.

Symbollically:

A XOR B
A
Therefore
NOT B

Since it must be either A or B (you can either have 10 fingers or 11 fingers) proving A (that you have 10 fingers) forces a False conclusion for B (that you do not have 11 fingers).

That was actually a trick question. I knew a person who had a Doctorate in mathematics and he said it was very difficult to prove that any number is equal to itself. It is easier, according to him, to prove that it is not equal to any other number.

look at this:

http://home.att.net/~numericana/answer/proof.htm#intro

It's heavily in abstract algebra. The actual proof for 1 = 1 is 2 pages worth of writing, or thereabouts.

Ok I am confused...the thread about Underwear ends up a huge religious debate...and the thread about jesus or w/e ends up a math discussion wtf is with you people lol

Ok I am confused...the thread about Underwear ends up a huge religious debate...and the thread about jesus or w/e ends up a math discussion wtf is with you people lol

Welcome to NSG, where "On Topic" lasts roughly 20 seconds.

Which is why I hate math. What isn't flat out made up doesn't make any sense.

And that is exactly the reason I almost flunk it every year...despite extra help....

I noticed...everything comes down to a political or religious flame war..in the end..

Just like you can't prove that the invisible pink unicorn exists, though you can prove that something cannot be invisible and pink at the same time.
Of course somethign can be invisible and pink at the same time. It's all how you look at it.

Pffft you need a book and plenty of followers to be real silly
The leprachaun informs me that he's written a book on the planet zeprisrmso and that the inhabitants of this planet all adore him. He's in the process of translating this book into all the languages of the Earthlings because he's seen what we do when given the opportunity to translate holy texts and he doesn't like it one bit.

The leprachaun informs me that he's written a book on the planet zeprisrmso and that the inhabitants of this planet all adore him. He's in the process of translating this book into all the languages of the Earthlings because he's seen what we do when given the opportunity to translate holy texts and he doesn't like it one bit.

He truly is a wise Lord

snip logic. Just like you can't prove that the invisible pink unicorn exists, though you can prove that something cannot be invisible and pink at the same time.

Snip

Sure he can he is all powerful of course he can be invisible and pink at the same time

Good luck to you Zilam. I hope things work out for you in your missionary journey. So when are you leaving?

btw...this is Darrian from KOBP (I booted you for hitting 3 weeks....) if you log back in just send me or Dallandra a pm, we'll reinvite you if you want to rejoin.

Zilam: I stand here to testify of His Greatness

You stand when you type?

You stand when you type?

In all fairness, when my chair was broken I had to kneel to type. Worst week on these forums I ever had. :(

In all fairness, when my chair was broken I had to kneel to type. Worst week on these forums I ever had. :(

sounds like it. I think I would have just knocked the legs off the table and sat on the floor.:p

sounds like it. I think I would have just knocked the legs off the table and sat on the floor.:p

It's more of an entertainment system with no legs. It would be me smashing at it with a maul for about 30 minutes and then my mom beating me for another 500 minutes. >.<

If god existed, Dubya and Cheney would have been tortured to death.

Something great has happened to me! I have been given a chance to testify to those around me of God's eternal love. After long periods of prayer, and soul on the brink of breaking down into despair, last night God answered many of my long awaited prayers seemingly all at once.

For instance, I was very worried about finances for my schooling, and apartment for this year, and well I prayed for a blessing, and prayed and prayed some more. Last night, at around 7 pm, my father called and told me that if was available to watch my cousin harold(he had a stroke and requires constant care) for a week, during my dad's wedding and honey moon, then he'd give me the money that he is paid to watch him. That is nearly a thousand dollars. That covers my books and my apartment! And since i receive the Illinois MAP grant, most of my tuition is paid off. How amazing for that! By allowing me to get the funds, i get to go back to school, and ultimately back to the campus church, where i have grown exponentially in the past year. Sure to some it seems that it is a nice coincidence. But guess what? there is more!

As many as you know, I plan on going into the mission field after i get done with school, specifically to Lebanon, and more than likely, Palestinian territories as well. Well, I really have this desire to go and show Christ's love to the people in need of hope, but I had no idea how to start it, what to do, who to contact etc etc. So i prayed for God to show me a way and so on. Well, i had almost all but given up on the idea of going over there period as it was useless since I had no idea of anything. But again God has other plans. Last night, I log onto a christian forum and the first thing i see if a girl my age looking for help on what to do regarding a mission field towards people of the middle east. Not only that, but I got an email from a gal in Lebanon, saying that she was more than willing to get me all the info I want, and to get me contacts.

Finally, Last night, although i was excited to hear such good news, i was still kind of down, because I realized that I suck a lot of times, emulating Christ, as I should. I mean you can even see that on here, when I have been hateful to someone like Fass, for example. I don't want to be that though, ya know? I want to be an example, and well, all those thoughts of people I rubbed the wrong way, brought me down, because I wasn't able to show them the truth of Christ. Well, I was praying, and asking God to heal my hurt heart, and to raise me up from that despair, and, I swear on my life and those that I love the most, two or three minutes I got an email from a random gentlemen, saying :



I was in shock! I replied telling him how i was praying for something just like that, and he replied back to me:



I mean, how would a total stranger, who was just happening to pray at the same time as I, know to contact me, and give an answer to that last prayer? There is no way that it was by luck, accident, or coincidence. It has to be God. There is no other way to it.

Now what does this mean? For me, a lot. I kind of feel renewed, and more faithful to God now. Sometimes, as believers we get bogged down because it seems like He isn't working miracles in our lives. But I am here to testify that He is alive and He is still working Miracles.

To ensure that this thread will not be reported for spam/ being a blog, I ask of you NSG, is this coincidence, or not? If you are a believer, what can you testify to God doing for you as of late? As always, keep it cordial, and free of flames :)

See? I was right about God being too busy to answer prayes sometimes. *nods*

Glad to see He got round to you eventually. but now I have another theory that, except for urgent prayers, He writes a big list of all people's prayers and ticks em off as He gets round to them. Sorta like that guy outa "My Name is Earl".

You stand when you type?

Yup. He does the male equivalent of "shooting pingpong balls" to press the keys with. Like jumping jacks, sorta.
:)

This thread is disappointing because it is not about Michael Vaughan.
Yet.

Yup. He does the male equivalent of "shooting pingpong balls" to press the keys with. Like jumping jacks, sorta.
:)

wow...that was an impressive one, even by my standards....

I stand here to testify that He wants you all to know He doesn't think He's particularly great, and that you're actually embarassing Him. In fact, He's about had it with the capitalized personal pronouns too, He thinks it's rather ridiculous that a male pronoun should be considered a proper name.

wow...that was an impressive one, even by my standards....

Thanks, Sark. :)
Not much time b4 Daily Show, so i lucked out with that one. :p

I stand here to testify that He wants you all to know He doesn't think He's particularly great, and that you're actually embarassing Him. In fact, He's about had it with the capitalized personal pronouns too, He thinks it's rather ridiculous that a male pronoun should be considered a proper name.

Then why does he keep posting around here as Ritlina and all the other incarnations?

Then why does he keep posting around here as Ritlina and all the other incarnations?

Our insignificant mortal minds cannot comprehend the greatness of his master plan there.

Our insignificant mortal minds cannot comprehend the greatness of his master plan there.

But i MUST TRY! MUST!
*grits teeth* :headbang:

If something with a low(er) probability occurs, that must mean it's the work of almighty GAWD!

If god existed, Dubya and Cheney would have been tortured to death.

God X (GWB + torture) = haha

I'd tell you to grow up, but maybe NSG isn't the best place for that ...

See? I was right about God being too busy to answer prayes sometimes. *nods*

Glad to see He got round to you eventually. but now I have another theory that, except for urgent prayers, He writes a big list of all people's prayers and ticks em off as He gets round to them. Sorta like that guy outa "My Name is Earl".

Uh, what about all that omnipotence and stuff? What happened to that?

Uh, what about all that omnipotence and stuff? What happened to that?

Television. Burning bushes and wheels made of eyes just look fake nowdays.

Uh, what about all that omnipotence and stuff? What happened to that?

What omnipotence ?

No - he's right.

You claim an absence of evidence. You say there is nothing before 500BC-something.

Even if this is true (and it isn't true - you can't PROVE there is no earlier evidence... only that we don't have it)... it doesn't prove the absence of 'god'... just the absence of evidence.So the reason why we do not have evidence for the existence of Harry Potter prior to the 1990s is simply that we just haven't found it yet? And it doesn't prove that Harry Potter does not exist?

And why would anyone assume that the biblical God exists although there is no evidence or even the slightest hint that it does? That's even worse than looking into the historical and archaeological record and only finding beliefs in ancient times that are exactly not like the bible describes ancient times. Face it: the claim of the biblical god's existence is devoid of any basis. All you have is a weird collection of arbitrarily assembled Jew-ish texts that pop into existence in the 4th or 3rd century BCE, with no theologically similar precursors whatsoever.

So the reason why we do not have evidence for the existence of Harry Potter prior to the 1990s is simply that we just haven't found it yet? And it doesn't prove that Harry Potter does not exist?

Why all this frustration on the existence of god?

Oh yeah, Harry Potter's a nice analog on this, yet there are none who contested his none existence.

Science is a lot like religion in this:

There are mystics. Crazy people, people who can't express their ideas in a commonly-understood way. Seekers after truth who often sacrifice all worldly things for it.

There are scholars. They can express some of the mystics' ideas in a commonly-understood way, though not follow every detail. They also can't do what the mystics do, strike out into the unknown or talk with God. They make a decent living, because all below them want to understand the mystics or the God they channel.

There are acolytes. They study hard, hoping to be scholars. Most give up in their later youth in favour of easier work and a normal life. Usually, they have the modesty not to preach to followers.

There are followers. The vast bulk of scientific and religious believers are followers. They listen to the scholars and revere the mystics. They rarely recant, because their beliefs rarely confict with other life choices.

Then there are heathens. Some heathens correctly pronounce Shibboleth, but generally they regard the entire heirarchy as being an enourmous wank with no practical value. If the mundane world kicks them in the guts, sometimes they try to escape into being followers.

Yeah, there are probably devil-worshippers and liars, but they don't play the game. I'd rather have a beer with a heathen or smoke a joint with a follower.

Oh yeah, Harry Potter's a nice analog on this, yet there are none who contested his none existence.

You can't say that until the post has sat there for 24 hours. Time-zones, yeah?

EDIT: Oh, crap. I still haven't got the hang of this. I hook into a thread when it gets all funky, but usually that's because everyone is half-worn-out and posting whatever. When I refresh the page to see if anyone has replied or even posted to the same thread, the last twenty posters are all offline.

I could make a really rude comment about lemmings, but hey: no lemming ever called me "ferret."

I stand here to testify of His Greatness.


Better sit down, dude.

You can't say that until the post has sat there for 24 hours. Time-zones, yeah?

EDIT: Oh, crap. I still haven't got the hang of this. I hook into a thread when it gets all funky, but usually that's because everyone is half-worn-out and posting whatever. When I refresh the page to see if anyone has replied or even posted to the same thread, the last twenty posters are all offline.

I could make a really rude comment about lemmings, but hey: no lemming ever called me "ferret."

Heh, general assumption, I'm sure someone's bound to correct me with facts.

That's the nature of an argument, is it not?

So the reason why we do not have evidence for the existence of Harry Potter prior to the 1990s is simply that we just haven't found it yet? And it doesn't prove that Harry Potter does not exist?

And why would anyone assume that the biblical God exists although there is no evidence or even the slightest hint that it does? That's even worse than looking into the historical and archaeological record and only finding beliefs in ancient times that are exactly not like the bible describes ancient times. Face it: the claim of the biblical god's existence is devoid of any basis. All you have is a weird collection of arbitrarily assembled Jew-ish texts that pop into existence in the 4th or 3rd century BCE, with no theologically similar precursors whatsoever.

A better example than 'Harry Potter' would be the Lemony Snickett books. I wonder if you know why.

But you are right - the absence of Harry Potter books doesn't preclude the possible existence of Harry Potter... although Rowling admitting that he is a fiction does suggest that it probably isn't a literal history. We have no similar disclaimer wrt the Biblical scripture.

And, you are (again) wrong - there IS evidence of the existence of the Judeo-Christian god. Mountains of the stuff. The problem is, it's all either interpretative... or anecdotal. Neither of which means there ISN'T a god, just that the evidence isn't really very useful to a scientific investigation.

As for the idea that there are no theologically similar precursors... I think perhaps your reach has exceeded your grasp. Not only are there clear paths to other 'earlier' stories of the region, a number of the Judeocentric myths actually show direct influence, if not actual wholesale theft, of earlier texts.

That's the nature of an argument, is it not?

Yeah I suppose. I'm done for now, while not conceding whatever the pint may have been.

I like your posts, btw. I will try to put up some kind of fact-interpretation-goad-irony thing next time. :)

He is imaginary and only appears before those who live in a world with elves and magic pixies.

Are you saying pixies aren't real? :confused:

Are you saying pixies aren't real? :confused:

I'm sorry. But... you can find comfort in the fact pixels are real even if pixies aren't. :)

I'm sorry. But... you can find comfort in the fact pixels are real even if pixies aren't. :)

But... but... but... I have one sitting on my shoulder right now. Honest guv.

But... but... but... I have one sitting on my shoulder right now. Honest guv.

I'm afraid it's not a pixie. It's really a pixel. ;)

Are you saying pixies aren't real? :confused:

They are, I remember well the screams of Frank Black, without The Pixes there would have been no Nirvana. Indeed 'I got a broken face, uh-hu, uh-hu'

You are never proving a negative. You are proving a different positive that contradicts the first.

Symbollically:

A XOR B
A
Therefore
NOT B

Since it must be either A or B (you can either have 10 fingers or 11 fingers) proving A (that you have 10 fingers) forces a False conclusion for B (that you do not have 11 fingers).

I was thinking about this last night, and I realised I got carried away with the debate and got distracted from my point. I realise that you can only prove a negative in certain contexts, only prove apositive in certain other contexts, and in other contxts, you can't prove anything at all. I think the nature of god is one of these latter situations.

We can discuss the nature of the evidence, the comparative rationality of viewpoints, and the likelihood of the Bible's accuracy until we are blue in the face, but really we are arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The nature of god, being mystical, is such that definite assertions can not be made as to that nature. It would be like trying to describe the joy of orgasm using only binary.

It's heavily in abstract algebra. The actual proof for 1 = 1 is 2 pages worth of writing, or thereabouts.

Thanks for the info. I'll take your word for it. In my field, you build it and wait. If people aren't suing each other ten years later, that's all the proof you get that it worked.

Sure he can he is all powerful of course he can be invisible and pink at the same time

That's what I'm getting at. The Christian god can make a rock so big that He can't lift it. And He can lift it. It doesn't have to be logical to be true when you are dealing with the mystical. I love my pretty mystical unicorn.

And why would anyone assume that the biblical God exists although there is no evidence or even the slightest hint that it does? That's even worse than looking into the historical and archaeological record and only finding beliefs in ancient times that are exactly not like the bible describes ancient times. Face it: the claim of the biblical god's existence is devoid of any basis. All you have is a weird collection of arbitrarily assembled Jew-ish texts that pop into existence in the 4th or 3rd century BCE, with no theologically similar precursors whatsoever.

I don't assume that the Biblical god exists. I simply do not display my ignorance by trumpetting His nonexistence as a fact when it is simply my opinion.

They are, I remember well the screams of Frank Black, without The Pixies there would have been no Nirvana. Indeed 'I got a broken face, uh-hu, uh-hu'

You know, there were rumours, there were rumours, there were rumours he was into field hockey players. So I applied basically, I tried out for the team...

Nirvana is to the Pixies what stale Twinkies are to fresh chocolate croissants.

Thanks for the info. I'll take your word for it. In my field, you build it and wait. If people aren't suing each other ten years later, that's all the proof you get that it worked.

Arch E?

Uh, Zilam, didn't you not two weeks ago post about how Religion was duping people?

Edit: Found it (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12824268&postcount=22).

So? Zilam had a change of heart. I have a freind who was atheist, he called my religion a sham and Joseph Smith of a fraud. I bore my testimoney and now he's a true beliver. People change.

So? Zilam had a change of heart. I have a freind who was atheist, he called my religion a sham and Joseph Smith of a fraud. I bore my testimoney and now he's a true beliver. People change.

Shame ;)

So? Zilam had a change of heart. I have a freind who was atheist, he called my religion a sham and Joseph Smith of a fraud. I bore my testimoney and now he's a true beliver. People change.

Except that two weeks before that, Zilam was a devout Christian.

Two weeks before that, he wanted to join the army.

Two weeks before that, he wanted to be a missionary.

And every single time, he came up with a new thread for it.

Pfft. My encounter/hallucination with a shadow being was cooler. Way cooler.