NationStates Jolt Archive

Ever since the dawn of man, man has worshiped a higher power, whether it's the Druids, Norse, Egyptian, Greeks, Roman, or the Christians, Jews, Muslim of today. While religion does give answers (until a better one came along) to life's great mysteries, in this modern day and age, I can't help but wonder, does religion really matter? I mean why would an entity, that pretty much is greater than humans really care about how we worship it, or if we even acknowledge it? I just don't see the point in religion nowadays espically since really all religion does is just divides humanity up instead of bringing them together. I just think that ultimately, the way you worship a higher power isn't going to matter as much as the way you act towards your fellow man and how you conduct yourself as a human being. What do you guys think?

Agreed and agreed, though I can only imagine this thread will quickly de-evolve into eventual fireworks.

Nope, we're all gonna die and what comes after that doesn't matter.

Well of course it wont matter unless you actually are religious.

If it's a religion with an afterlife then it matters if it's right.

If it's a religion with an afterlife then it matters if it's right.

Yea, well if you can tell me which religion is the 'right' one (without using holy scriptures/books/Holy men) then I'll sign up for that one.

It does seem like the whole point of religion is "What Ultimately Matters?" It's trying to agree on those points where it gets messy.

Yea, well if you can tell me which religion is the 'right' one (without using holy scriptures/books/Holy men) then I'll sign up for that one.

I'd love to, but if one of them is right and that one does have an afterlife of some kind then we probably won't know until we die. At which point it's probably too late.
Nope, we're all gonna die and what comes after that doesn't matter.
No, dead organisms are important parts of the ecosystem.

What do you guys think?
I think you're going to be an atheist in a couple of weeks at the rate you're going. ;)

I'd love to, but if one of them is right and that one does have an afterlife of some kind then we probably won't know until we die. At which point it's probably too late.

Knowing our luck, the right religion is probably a cargo cult on some barren island where only 150 people live and only 20 people believe in it.

I think you're going to be an atheist in a couple of weeks at the rate you're going. ;)

lol! Damn you NSG, opening my mind and such, damn you all to Hell! lol j/k :p

I'd love to, but if one of them is right and that one does have an afterlife of some kind then we probably won't know until we die. At which point it's probably too late.

No, dead organisms are important parts of the ecosystem.

So which is better? To live your life as if there is a God and find out when you die there isn't one, or to live your life as if there is no God and find out when you die there is one? :eek:

What do you guys think?

since there is no higher power it's obvious that it doesn't matter. If you wish to believe there is a higher power I think it does matter how you worship him/her/it, after all you believe that the bible/koran/whatever is the word of that entity and why would he/she/it say that stuff when it wasn't serious? (of course this doesn't really count for people who believe in higher powers but don't follow a religion or who don't take their holy book or their religion that serious or literal) And if you don't follow the words you're not going to the afterlife, so yeah, it does matter. How you behave against non-believers (unless it's specifically described by your holly scripture of course) is a personal choice of course, so it doesn't have to lead to hate amongst people of different religions.

No, dead organisms are important parts of the ecosystem.

Oh, right.

Hey, you know those air seals they try to sell you in funeral homes? Did you know those not only don't keep bugs and germs out, they also cause your corpse to explode?

So which is better? To live your life as if there is a God and find out when you die there isn't one, or to live your life as if there is no God and find out when you die there is one? :eek:Rut Row! Pascal's Wager sneaks into the thread!

Yeah, Pascal really didn't think that one through.

* You live as though God exists.
o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.

* You live as though God does not exist.
o If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.


Good job remembering that there's more religions that just Christianity, Pascal!

It seems the human brain is programmed to create answers to things they cannot explain, even if it means creating elaborate stories to do it. I personally could not care less.

So which is better? To live your life as if there is a God and find out when you die there isn't one, or to live your life as if there is no God and find out when you die there is one? :eek:

IF there is an entity which created the whole universe it would probably intelligence on a whole other level than us and be so different from us that we can't communicate with each other and that it really doesn't care. If a scientist creates a new kind of bacteria would he care that they don't worship him and how can he test this? (not a perfect analogy, i know, but you get what i mean) also it is so much more intelligent and powerful than us, would it know that we exist? and could we know that it exists? For it it would be like there was some kind of intelligence to small for us to see, and for us it could be like that we can't really see that the earth is a ball because it is to large, it might be so large that we can only "experience" parts of it, and probably even don't.

So which is better? To live your life as if there is a God and find out when you die there isn't one, or to live your life as if there is no God and find out when you die there is one? :eek:

Pascal's Wager suggests the former, but I say if you're enjoying your life and not hurting anyone then have at it.

Does anything matter? Insofar as religion answers, or, rather, invents an answer to, the finality of death, I would imagine it is rather important, but not at any scale above the merely human.

Knowing our luck, the right religion is probably a cargo cult on some barren island where only 150 people live and only 20 people believe in it.
Or one of the sects from Life of Brian (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079470/). "Follow the shoe!" "No, follow the gourd!" Imagine if those were our only choices :eek:

Yeah, Pascal really didn't think that one through.



Good job remembering that there's more religions that just Christianity, Pascal!

Unfortunately, Pascal wrote in a Christian paradigm. Unlike you.

Ever since the dawn of man, man has worshiped a higher power, whether it's the Druids, Norse, Egyptian, Greeks, Roman, or the Christians, Jews, Muslim of today. While religion does give answers (until a better one came along) to life's great mysteries, in this modern day and age, I can't help but wonder, does religion really matter? I mean why would an entity, that pretty much is greater than humans really care about how we worship it, or if we even acknowledge it? I just don't see the point in religion nowadays espically since really all religion does is just divides humanity up instead of bringing them together. I just think that ultimately, the way you worship a higher power isn't going to matter as much as the way you act towards your fellow man and how you conduct yourself as a human being. What do you guys think?

Personally, I think religion is bogus.
I do however acknowledge that a good part of the human population has a spiritual need for explanations that go beyond the physical and the rational. So there will always be people taking refuge in religion, as religions seem to provide answers that appear adequat to believers. Which religion is picked is mostly a cultural thing, whichever religion merged most with the culture the believer grew up in is the religion most likely to answer the questions satisfactorily, mainly due to the fact that the particular religion has been tailored to reflect the moral, social and traditional aspects of the culture in question.

I've tried for quite a while now to understand why some people feel the need for supernatural explanations and answers, and the above are my conclusions in a nutshell.

Religion is no longer useful for survival.

So which is better? To live your life as if there is a God and find out when you die there isn't one, or to live your life as if there is no God and find out when you die there is one? :eek:Just don't live your life as if there were the Yhvh god but keep other options as possible, and you are safe either way.

Religion is no longer useful for survival.Had it ever been?

So which is better? To live your life as if there is a God and find out when you die there isn't one, or to live your life as if there is no God and find out when you die there is one? :eek:

Personally, it makes not the slightest bit of difference to my life if there is a god or not, so that question is m00t.

Had it ever been?

Yup. Getting people to think higher of their individual selves, conformity, etc.

Had it ever been?

Well, imagine you were an atheist in 13th century France...

Yup. Getting people to think higher of their individual selves, conformity, etc.
Why would you need religion for that?

So which is better? To live your life as if there is a God and find out when you die there isn't one, or to live your life as if there is no God and find out when you die there is one? :eek:
The last one, because if you do believe it, and it turns out wrong, your entire beleif system shatters. I personally don't beleive in a God, and if it turns out there is one, I'll probably just be, "Oh. Well what do you know. Looks like I'll be meeting Satan soon huh"?
That and I'd have a nice little chat with him about the state of the world. :)

Well, imagine you were an atheist in 13th century France...?? Good time, all the Christian retards have gone to Jerusalem...

I AGREE WITH ISIADORE. except that i personally belive that we all have our own destiny (ramble) that what we belive in is our after life... life is around us, and within us. its how we experience it that matters... thats all

?? Good time, all the Christian retards have gone to Jerusalem...

Nah, only those with money. Those without are happily burning heretics at home.

Knowing our luck, the right religion is probably a cargo cult on some barren island where only 150 people live and only 20 people believe in it.

You, sir. Rule. I'm gonna worship you going forward.

Um... Valid points... but when you're religious and feel the need for a higher power, or you were brought up to not question what your elders told you about universal truths then your questions are cognitive dissonance and are pretty much tossed aside as just white noise that interferes with truth. Your question is pretty much only going to find resonance with agnostics and atheists as it's kind of narrowly focused.

Religious folks who aren't offended or annoyed at your question will probably be forced to acknowledge that it is their faith and belief outside of what they can touch physically that drives them and that they feel comfortable with that decision. Who could or would gainsay such a free choice?

I AGREE WITH ISIADORE. except that i personally belive that we all have our own destiny (ramble) that what we belive in is our after life... life is around us, and within us. its how we experience it that matters... thats allSo I'll go to Valinor when I die.... hurray :D

I generally think that the existence of any deity is unknowable and that people don't generally even know what they mean when they ask the question "is there a god?" the whole thing is rather absurd.

So I'll go to Valinor when I die.... hurray :D

:D Can you get any more nerdy?






... can I come, too? Please?

Why would you need religion for that?

A. Do this because it is good for society.

B. Do this or you will burn in hell for all eternity.

B works better.

:D Can you get any more nerdy?






... can I come, too? Please?

Not if you're a Christian.

And the ship went out into the High Sea and passed on into the West, until at last on a night of rain... the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise.

damn, I need to find my LotR text file, oh but look what I found :p
The Adventures Of Tom Bombadil

Old Tom Bombadil was a merry felow;
bright blue his jacket was and his bloots were yellow,
green were his girdle and his breeches all of leather;
he wore in his tall hat a swan-wing feather.
He lived up under Hill, where the Withywindle
ran from a grassy well down into the dingle.
Old Tom in summertime walked about the meadows
gathering the buttercups, running after shadows,
tickling the bumblebees that buzzed among the flowers,
sitting by the waterside for hours upon hours.
There his beard dangled long down into the water:
up came Goldberry, the River-woman's daughter;
pulled Tom's hanging hair. In he went a-wallowing
under the water-lilies, bubbling and a-swallowing.
'Hey, Tom Bombadil! Whither are you going?'
said fair Goldberry. 'Bubbles you are blowing,
frightening the finny fish and the brown water-rat,
startling the dabchicks, and drowning your feather-hat!'
'You bring it back again, there's a pretty maiden!'
said Tom Bombadil. 'I do not care for wading.
Go down! Sleep again where the pools are shady
far below willow-roots, little water-lady!'
Back to her mother's house in the deepest hollow
swam young Goldberry. But Tom, he would not follow;
on knotted willow-roots he sat in sunny weather,
drying his yellow boots and his draggled feather.
Up woke Willow-man, began upon his singing,
sang Tom fast asleep under branches swinging;
in a crack caught him tight: snick! it closed together,
trapped Tom Bombadil, coat and hat and feather.
'Ha. Tom Bombadil! What be you a-thinking,
peeping inside my free, watching me a-drinking
deep in my wooden house, tickling me with feather,
dripping wet down my face like a rainy weather?'
'You let me out again, Old Man Willow!
I am stiff lying here; they're no sort of pillow,
your hard crooked roots. Drink your river-water!
Go back to sleep again like the River-daughter!'
Willow-man let him loose when he heard him speaking;
locked fast his wooden house, muttering and creaking,
whispering inside the tree. Out from willow-dingle
Tom went walking on up the Withywindle.
Under the forest-eaves he sat a while a-iistening:
on the boughs piping birds were chirruping and whistling.
Butterflies about his head went quivering and winking,
until grey clouds came up, as the sun was sinking.
Then Tom hurried on. Rain began to shiver,
round rings spattering in the running river;
a wind blew, shaken leaves chilly drops were dripping;
into a sheltering hole Old Tom went skipping.
Out came Badger-brock with his snowy forehead
and his dark blinking eyes. In the hill he quarried
with his wife and many sons. By the coat they caught him,
pulled him inside their earth, down their tunnels brought him.
Inside their secret house, there they sat a-mumbling:
'Ho, Tom Bombadil' Where have you come tumbling,
bursting in the front-door? Badger-folk have caught you.
You'll never find it out, the way that we have brought you!'
'Now. old Badger-brock, do you hear me talking?
You show me out at once! I must be a-walking.
Show me to your backdoor under briar-roses;
then clean grimy paws, wipe your earthy noses!
Go back to sleep again on your straw pillow,
like fair Goldberry and Oid Man Willow!'
Then all the Badger-folk said: 'We beg your pardon!'
They showed Tom out again to their thorny garden,
went back and hid themselves, a-shivering and a-shaking,
blocked up all their doors, earth together raking.
Rain had passed. The sky was clear, and in the summer-gloaming
Old Tom BombadH laughed as he came homing,
unlocked his door again, and opened up a shutter.
In the kitchen round the lamp moths began to flutter:
Tom through the window saw waking stars come winking,
and the new slender moon early westward sinking.
Dark came under Hill. Tom, he lit a candle;
upstairs creaking went, turned the door-handle.
'Hoo. Tom Bombadil' Look what night has brought you!
I'm here behind the door. Now at last I've caught you!
You'd forgotten Barrow-wight dwelling in the old mound
up there on hill-top with the ring of stones round.
He's got loose again. Under earth he'll take you.
Poor Tom Bombadilt pale and cold he'll make you!'
'Go out! Shut the door, and never come back after!
Take away gleaming eyes, take your hollow laughter!
Go back to grassy mound, on your stony pillow
lay down your bony head, like Old Man Willow,
like young Goldberry, and Badger-folk in burrow!
Go back to buried gold and forgotten sorrow!'
Out fled Barrow-wight through the window leaping,
through the yard, over wall like a shadow sweeping,
up hill wailing went back to leaning stone-rings,
back under lonely mound, rattling his bone-rings.
Old Tom Bombadil lay upon his pillow
sweeter than Goldberry, quieter than the Willow,
snugger than the Badger-folk or the Barrow-dwellers;
slept like a humming-top, snored like a bellows.
He woke in morning-light, whistled like a starling,
sang, 'Come, derry-dol, merry-dol, my darling!'
He clapped on his battered hat, boots, and coat and feather;
opened the window wide to the sunny weather.
Wise old Bombadil, he was a wary fellow;
bright blue his jacket was, and his boots were yellow.
None ever caught old Tom in upland or in dingle,
walking the forest-paths, or by the Withywindle,
or out on the lily-pools in boat upon the water.
But one day Tom, he went and caught the River-daughter,
in green gown, flowing hair, sitting in the rushes,
singing old water-songs to birds upon the bushes.
He caught her, held her fast! Water-rats went scuttering
reeds hissed, herons cried, and her heart was fluttering.
Said Tom Bombadil: 'Here's my pretty maiden!
You shall come home with me! The table is all laden:
yellow cream, honeycomb, white bread and butter;
roses at the window-sill and peeping round the shutter.
You shall come under Hill! Never mind your mother
in her deep weedy pool: there you'll find no lover!'
Old Tom Bombadil had a merry wedding,
crowned all with buttercups, hat and feather shedding;
his bride with forgetmenots and flag-lilies for garland
was robed all in silver-green. He sang like a starling,
hummed like a honey-bee, lilted to the fiddle,
clasping his river-maid round her slender middle.
Lamps gleamed within his house, and white was the bedding;
in the bright honey-moon Badger-folk came treading,
danced down under Hill, and Old Man Willow
tapped, tapped at window-pane, as they slept on the pillow,
on the bank in the reeds River-woman sighing
heard old Barrow-wight in his mound crying.
Old Tom Bombadil heeded not the voices,
taps, knocks, dancing feet, all the nightly noises;
slept till the sun arose, then sang like a starling:
'Hey! Come derry-dol, merry-dol, my darling!'
sitting on the door-step chopping sticks of willow,
while fair Goldberry combed her tresses yellow.

A. Do this because it is good for society.

B. Do this or you will burn in hell for all eternity.

B works better.No, it doesn't. If you are a good person out of fear of punishment, you in fact are not a good person but a hypocrite. If you are a good person, because you understand why you ought to be one, you really are a good person.

Ever since the dawn of man, man has worshiped a higher power, whether it's the Druids, Norse, Egyptian, Greeks, Roman, or the Christians, Jews, Muslim of today. While religion does give answers (until a better one came along) to life's great mysteries, in this modern day and age, I can't help but wonder, does religion really matter? I mean why would an entity, that pretty much is greater than humans really care about how we worship it, or if we even acknowledge it? I just don't see the point in religion nowadays espically since really all religion does is just divides humanity up instead of bringing them together. I just think that ultimately, the way you worship a higher power isn't going to matter as much as the way you act towards your fellow man and how you conduct yourself as a human being. What do you guys think?
Religion matters if you are religious. Can we really determine how a non-human entity will behave or its desires? Really though, if we assume that it intervenes with human existence to some extent then a desire by such an entity for some aim wouldn't be completely illogical in the context of the prior assumption, we can still assume that its action is purposeful. I'd say that you have essentially become an agnostic with your assumptions, as your previous religion was catholicism, correct? Given that most branches of Christianity seem to claim that salvation is by grace and not works you have turned away from your original beliefs.

No, it doesn't. If you are a good person out of fear of punishment, you in fact are not a good person but a hypocrite. If you are a good person, because you understand why you ought to be one, you really are a good person.

It's not about being a "good person" or a "bad person". It's about getting everyone to agree about the same set of rules.

It's not about being a "good person" or a "bad person". It's about getting everyone to agree about the same set of rules.Fear is not agreement.

Fear is not agreement.
Then why do we use punishment to maintain rule of law?

Then why do we use punishment to maintain rule of law?Because education is ineffective on some folks?

Fear is not agreement.

But it worked. And now, it is more of a problem than a help.

Fear is not agreement.

Does it really matter if someone obeys the law out of fear of going to jail or because they're good people?

Does it really matter if someone obeys the law out of fear of going to jail or because they're good people?

Depends on the context, I think. It matters not a bit when you're talking about society as a whole.

Religion doesn't matter in the end because after your dead, maggots will be eatin' your corpse for lunch.

Spiritual fulfilment should be a personal thing; something done that makes your feel like you've found the answers you want and not the ones fed to you through mass religion. Everyone is different so why should we all believe the same thing?

There is no right or wrong answer, just the answer that fulfils your spiritual hunger.

Religion doesn't matter in the end because after your dead, maggots will be eatin' your corpse for lunch.

And the worst part?

The maggots won't have ketchup! How could you be so cruel to the maggots?

And the worst part?

The maggots won't have ketchup! How could you be so cruel to the maggots?

I'm going to be finely seasoned before they put me in the ground. None of those cheap spices, either.

I'm going to be finely seasoned before they put me in the ground. None of those cheap spices, either.

Just remember that those poor maggots are allergic to paprika, and pepper gives them phlegm.

I personally liked Hunter S. Thompson's way of dealing with his remains.

Religion doesn't matter in the end because after your dead, maggots will be eatin' your corpse for lunch.

I disagree. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Ubud_Cremation_1.jpg/480px-Ubud_Cremation_1.jpg) :D

Spiritual fulfilment should be a personal thing; something done that makes your feel like you've found the answers you want and not the ones fed to you through mass religion. Everyone is different so why should we all believe the same thing?

There is no right or wrong answer, just the answer that fulfils your spiritual hunger.

So, basically, you're saying that there's no wrong answer, except for the ones that the majority of people choose? :confused:

I disagree. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Ubud_Cremation_1.jpg/480px-Ubud_Cremation_1.jpg) :D

:

When you're cremated, the maggots use you as a drink mix instead.

When you're cremated, the maggots use you as a drink mix instead.

Nah, that's just Cartman.

And, anyways, I plan to have my ashes spread into the sea... with a trebuchet. So, I'll be tasty krill snacks!

Because education is ineffective on some folks?
Given that morality doesn't seem to be the same as knowledge, I am not sure that this is a matter of education. I mean, what, are you going to say that Dr. Evil is undereducated?

Given that morality doesn't seem to be the same as knowledge, I am not sure that this is a matter of education. I mean, what, are you going to say that Dr. Evil is undereducated?

"Frickin' laser cannons!"

Not if you're a Christian.



damn, I need to find my LotR text file, oh but look what I found :p

Stop spamming Tom Bombadil! I always skipped that stuff (along with the other poetry and general italicised texts) in LotR due to the length *shudders*.

No, it doesn't. If you are a good person out of fear of punishment, you in fact are not a good person but a hypocrite. If you are a good person, because you understand why you ought to be one, you really are a good person.

And? It is still useful as a social binding system and/or a control mechanism.

So, basically, you're saying that there's no wrong answer, except for the ones that the majority of people choose? :confused:
I'm saying people don't need religion to find answers and that the answers they seek don't have to conform to anyone else's standards.

I'm saying people don't need religion to find answers and that the answers they seek don't have to conform to anyone else's standards.

Yes, that's completely true.

However, some people (e.g. me) were raised into a religion, and, upon much reflection (seriously, a lot of reflection), have found that their religion is the path they want to follow.

All of the Catholics I know are like me: they don't follow the scripture blindly. A lot of the Bible is a political writing, and even if it truly is the word of God, it's the word of God as interpreted by Man, and is, therefore, flawed. Most Catholics I know would never commit violence in the name of their religion, except in defense of our right to follow it (and many wouldn't even then). And a lot of us have the basic idea that there are many paths to God, and the only constant between all of them is the need for virtue and, essentially, good conduct in this life.

As long as your religion is not in conflict with others, and does not interfere with the welfare of others* (e.g. fundamentalism of almost any type), or with the welfare of the Earth, is there really anything wrong with following it?


*"others" as in other people, not other religions. It's a poorly written sentence, I know.

Religion is worthless to me, but faith-not nessisarily in god, but in anything-is everything, along with love.

I am a Catholic and believe all that Mother Church teaches because God has threatened me, and all of us, with eternal damnation if I don't.

I am a Catholic because "outside of the Church there no salvation," and "it is necessary to salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

So does Religion ultimately matter? Yes. Jesus demands it.

I am a Catholic and believe all that Mother Church teaches because God has threatened me, and all of us, with eternal damnation if I don't.

I am a Catholic because "outside of the Church there no salvation," and "it is necessary to salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

So does Religion ultimately matter? Yes. Jesus demands it.

GTFO troll.

GTFO troll.

Actually, I sort of pity him... Assuming of course that he means what he says and isn't a satirical sort.

GTFO troll.

I am only reiterating the doctrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus) of the Church.

Actually, I sort of pity him... Assuming of course that he means what he says and isn't a satirical sort.

Of course he doesn't mean what he says.

The term Mother Church means, essentially, one thing in relation to Catholicism: the Lateran Basilica. You can't be taught something from the Lateran Basilica, because it's a pile of bricks. A very beautiful pile of bricks (assuming you like Baroque architecture), but, nonetheless, a pile of bricks.

Furthermore, one of his quotes is from an address in 1302 (the Unam Sanctum). It is the single most extreme statement ever made by the church regarding spirituality, and is rarely accepted, considering the character of the Pope who made the statement (Boniface, who constantly tried to use the Church to increase his own power. He's one of the worst Catholic popes I know of).

The other is the "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus", which is a bit of Catholic dogma, yes, but it is basically designed to justify missions. There aren't really that many missions left in the world.

And, "Jesus demands it"? That's just ridiculous. He's sounds more like a fundie than a Catholic.

I am a Catholic and believe all that Mother Church teaches because God has threatened me, and all of us, with eternal damnation if I don't

Okay, for some reason, when I just randomly scroll past that, I keep reading "Mother Church" as "Motley Crue".

I have NO idea why.

Of course he doesn't mean what he says.

The term Mother Church means, essentially, one thing in relation to Catholicism: the Lateran Basilica. You can't be taught something from the Lateran Basilica, because it's a pile of bricks. A very beautiful pile of bricks (assuming you like Baroque architecture), but, nonetheless, a pile of bricks.

Metaphor/ Synecdoche or whatever it's called.

Furthermore, one of his quotes is from an address in 1302 (the Unam Sanctum). It is the single most extreme statement ever made by the church regarding spirituality.

True, true... But he could be a fundie

The other is the "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus", which is a bit of Catholic dogma, yes, but it is basically designed to justify missions. There aren't really that many missions left in the world.

Actually, there are still quite a few, if memory serves.

And, "Jesus demands it"? That's just ridiculous. He's sounds more like a fundie than a Catholic.

And? Maybe he IS a fundie.

...

Or maybe he's a satirical troll. Either way, I feel sorry for those who live their lives based on fear of some powerful egotistical person/organization/being.

Okay, for some reason, when I just randomly scroll past that, I keep reading "Mother Church" as "Motley Crue".

I have NO idea why.

lol.

"I am a Catholic and believe all that Motley Crue teaches because God has threatened me, and all of us, with eternal damnation if I don't."

So... I need to drink, overdose on heroin, and put umlauts on everything, or I'll go to hell.

Well, 1 out of 3 ain't bad.

Extreme or not, it was spoken Ex Cathedra.

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

That hits every one of the 5 constituent parts required simultaneously to effect an infallible Papal statement.


The True Pope
By Virtue of his office
must define
a matter of faith or morality
as applicable to the whole Church

True, true... But he could be a fundie

I am a traditionalist, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Traditionalism) comrade.

I trully believe my religion is the correct one, but since it only says treat other fairly, and the fair thing to do is to allow avery one to have their opinion...


I dont remember who said it "I dont believe in what you are saying but I will defend your right to say it"

I am a traditionalist, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Traditionalism) comrade.

Do you believe the Bible and the Church are both absolutely correct and also both infalliable and inerrant? If so, you're a fundie. If not... then you're still a comparative fundie.

Ever since the dawn of man, man has worshiped a higher power, whether it's the Druids, Norse, Egyptian, Greeks, Roman, or the Christians, Jews, Muslim of today. While religion does give answers (until a better one came along) to life's great mysteries, in this modern day and age, I can't help but wonder, does religion really matter? I mean why would an entity, that pretty much is greater than humans really care about how we worship it, or if we even acknowledge it? I just don't see the point in religion nowadays espically since really all religion does is just divides humanity up instead of bringing them together. I just think that ultimately, the way you worship a higher power isn't going to matter as much as the way you act towards your fellow man and how you conduct yourself as a human being. What do you guys think?

Religion does matter. It has the power to bind together massive groups of people unhindered by borders or political affiliation, the power to motivate people to do terrible or wonderful things, and it has a profound impact on history and continues to affect the modern world in ways both huge and very small.

If you want to debate the purpose or existence of a higher being, you phrased your question poorly; but religion, the structure surrounding a system of core beliefs, does exist, and it's very powerful, for good or ill.

I trully believe my religion is the correct one, but since it only says treat other fairly, and the fair thing to do is to allow avery one to have their opinion...


I dont remember who said it "I dont believe in what you are saying but I will defend your right to say it"

Voltaire said it...

Metaphor/ Synecdoche or whatever it's called.
Seriously, it refers to a building. The Church or The Vatican would have been far more appropriate.

Actually, there are still quite a few, if memory serves.
Yeah, I think you're right, actually. Most missions seem to work to aid the populace, not subjugate them, nowadays.

Although, I think some were caught embezzling funds or something. Assholes.

Or maybe he's a satirical troll. Either way, I feel sorry for those who live their lives based on fear of some powerful egotistical person/organization/being.
Me, too.

I may be Catholic, but I don't live in fear of God or the Church.

Extreme or not, it was spoken Ex Cathedra.

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

That hits every one of the 5 constituent parts required simultaneously to effect an infallible Papal statement.


The True Pope
By Virtue of his office
must define
a matter of faith or morality
as applicable to the whole Church


Yeah, and it promptly proclaimed a load of bollocks.

King Philip issued a refutation (via John of Paris), and was promptly excommunicated. Twenty-nine accusations were made against the Pope, including "infidelity, heresy, simony, gross and unnatural immorality, idolatry, magic, loss of the Holy Land, and the death of Celestine V". No less than five archbishops sided with Philip, along with 21 bishops.

In any case, the bull was meant as an attack against King Phillip of France. No Catholic worth their salt will buy into it.

Seriously, it refers to a building. The Church or The Vatican would have been far more appropriate.

Oh, well, I figured it would be that because the religion seems to be full of that stuff.

Yeah, I think you're right, actually. Most missions seem to work to aid the populace, not subjugate them, nowadays.

Although, I think some were caught embezzling funds or something. Assholes.

They [the assholes] are everywhere. Just ask Lord Helmet. :p


Me, too.

I may be Catholic, but I don't live in fear of God or the Church.

Maybe someday people won't have to live in fear of the will of the dead (or, if they are correct, the transcendent) imposed upon the living.

I agree with willgrove..I do however find religion to be the dumbest thing man has ever come up with and the world would be a much happier and peaceful place if religion didn't exist...

Yeah, and it promptly proclaimed a load of bollocks.

Whether you think it's bullocks or not, it was infallibly proclaimed, and you must believe it, if you are a Catholic, lest you commit heresy.

Whether you think it's bullocks or not, it was infallibly proclaimed, and you must believe it, if you are a Catholic, lest you commit heresy.

Umm...If the leader of your religion claims something stupid, and you believe it even though you think it's stupid, you're not some paragon of faith. You're an idiot.

Whether you think it's bullocks or not, it was infallibly proclaimed, and you must believe it, if you are a Catholic, at pain of heresy.

*Ahem*

I am a heretic to the Catholic Church (or at least the one GR advocates).

...


Nope, didn't hurt a bit.

*Ahem*

I am a heretic to the Catholic Church (or at least the one GR advocates).


From what I've heard, the only unforgivable heresy is "attributing the miracles of the holy ghost to a demonic entity, such as Donald Trump." or something along those lines.

From what I've heard, the only unforgivable heresy is "attributing the miracles of the holy ghost to a demonic entity, such as Donald Trump." or something along those lines.

Oh...

What if one thinks the God those like GR advocate is an egotistical sadist?

Oh...

What if one thinks the God those like GR advocate is an egotistical sadist?

I'm pretty sure that's okay.

I think this came up because of that program to have people posting videos of themselves denying to existence of god were saying this was staking your immortal soul, and somebody pointed out that that wasn't necessarily staking your immortal soul.

Interestingly, even Morbid Angel song "Blasphemy" doesn't commit unforgivable blasphemy. It's a pretty small category of blasphemy. Not usually one you usually think of.

I'm pretty sure that's okay.

Oh... Well, I guess that's all good then. :)

Does religion ultimately matter?

Yes

Religion is no longer useful for survival.

In actuality, it runs counter to the survival of humanity as a species. It is the one thing that will keep us too divided to save ourselves.

Sooner or later the universe, or the planet, or our own weapons are going to make life for human beings on this planet impossible...and we're going to look mighty foolish if we're still stuck on this single, fragile little planet because we were too blinded by our differences to work together towards the only end that matters in the long term...making sure all of our eggs are not in one basket.

So yes, religion ultimately matters...I suspect it will be the downfall of the human race.


Religion is worthless to me, but faith-not nessisarily in god, but in anything-is everything, along with love.

Very well said...I second this statement. :)

Not if you're a Christian.



Do I look like a Christian??? :eek::eek::eek:

Matters because it's not easy to find a sense of purpose and order.

Though sometimes you got to take in this stuff moderately.

If there is a god, he or she does nothing to or for us now, therefore he or she is irrelevant.

Voltaire said it...

Almost right. The actual quote was devised by Tallentyre, but used as a summary of Voltaires ideas:

The men who had hated [the book], and had not particularly loved Helvétius, flocked round him now. Voltaire forgave him all injuries, intentional or unintentional. 'What a fuss about an omelette!' he had exclaimed when he heard of the burning. How abominably unjust to persecute a man for such an airy trifle as that! 'I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,' was his attitude now.

Yea, well if you can tell me which religion is the 'right' one (without using holy scriptures/books/Holy men) then I'll sign up for that one.

Thats a good question and the answer to it is, what ever religion feels right to you is the right one for you. Heh of course this is subject to change.

Thats a good question and the answer to it is, what ever religion feels right to you is the right one for you. Heh of course this is subject to change.So factual truth depends on the individual's opinion?

Ever since the dawn of man, man has worshiped a higher power, whether it's the Druids, Norse, Egyptian, Greeks, Roman, or the Christians, Jews, Muslim of today. While religion does give answers (until a better one came along) to life's great mysteries, in this modern day and age, I can't help but wonder, does religion really matter? I mean why would an entity, that pretty much is greater than humans really care about how we worship it, or if we even acknowledge it? I just don't see the point in religion nowadays espically since really all religion does is just divides humanity up instead of bringing them together. I just think that ultimately, the way you worship a higher power isn't going to matter as much as the way you act towards your fellow man and how you conduct yourself as a human being. What do you guys think?
People follow the religion that best fits with the morality they've already decided to hold. Religion doesn't create morality, and is not remotely necessary for maintaining or enforcing it. Religion doesn't provide any answers beyond those which the individual chooses to create for themselves. Religion is a way that some people choose to vent their creative and moral impulses, nothing more and nothing less.

So factual truth depends on the individual's opinion?

What factual truth? Its religion and God we talk about, since when has there been any factual truth there?

People follow the religion that best fits with the morality they've already decided to hold. Religion doesn't create morality, and is not remotely necessary for maintaining or enforcing it. Religion doesn't provide any answers beyond those which the individual chooses to create for themselves. Religion is a way that some people choose to vent their creative and moral impulses, nothing more and nothing less.

Ohh I don't know about that! I would have said there is more to religoin. It helps some be at peace with their lives, man there is a lot more to religioin than just moral or creative impulses.

Ohh I don't know about that! I would have said there is more to religoin. It helps some be at peace with their lives,

Like I said: people choose religion to suit their personal needs and wants. It's a reflection of the individual. A person who wants a certain kind of comfort will find a religion that offers it. They're seeking the comfort, not the religion in particular.


man there is a lot more to religioin than just moral or creative impulses.
Not in my opinion. Religion is a kind of a tool that some humans choose to use to ease their lives. The choice of religion, or the specific expressions of religiosity, are simply a reflection of the individual in question.

What factual truth? Its religion and God we talk about, since when has there been any factual truth there??? How do you define the "right" religion then? It's surely the one that describes reality most accurately? So if the God that is described by one particular religion really exists, how can another religion be the "right" one for other people? If Vishnu and the pantheon around is the real one then how could Christianity be the right religion for Christians nevertheless?

Not in my opinion. Religion is a kind of a tool that some humans choose to use to ease their lives. The choice of religion, or the specific expressions of religiosity, are simply a reflection of the individual in question.

Yeah you are undoubedtly right on that score, but you really think that such expresion is only ever a manifestation of morality or creativity? Nope I just don't belive that is the case.

Ohh I don't know about that! I would have said there is more to religoin. It helps some be at peace with their lives, man there is a lot more to religioin than just moral or creative impulses.Religion is supposed to accurately describe the world including the supernatural. If a religion does not do that it is pointless, no matter what peace it may give to its followers.

?? How do you define the "right" religion then? It's surely the one that describes reality most accurately?

Some of us believe that all superstitions are equally bunk. Therefore, pretty much all religions are equally "wrong" in that regard. This means we have to find some other standard for "rightness" of a religion.

I suppose I would have to define the "right" religion for an individual as the religion which functions as the best tool for their needs. Like any other tool, this means that the "right" religion will depend on who the individual is and what they are trying to accomplish.


So if the God that is described by one particular religion really exists, how can another religion be the "right" one for other people?
The problem is that you are assuming there is a God that conforms to one of the ludicrously anthropomorphic projections held forth by human religions, or at least conforms more closely to it than the ludicrously anthropomorphic projection advocated by any other human religion. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to assume this.

?? How do you define the "right" religion then? It's surely the one that describes reality most accurately? So if the God that is described by one particular religion really exists, how can another religion be the "right" one for other people?

Its about personal choice, and right and wrong is subjective anyway.

Switch it to politics, why if there is only one subjective 'right' way of goverment do we have so many flavours of politics? Even with politics, something that we can objectivly show to exist, we all have differing opinions on what is the right way.

Back over to questions of God, for which there is no objective proof whatso ever, then it all becomes opinion. How to prove which subjctive opinion is objectivly right?

Can't be done, hence whatever religoin you feel more comfatable is the right one for you, in this period of your life.

Religion is supposed to accurately describe the world including the supernatural. If a religion does not do that it is pointless, no matter what peace it may give to its followers.
I'd say it's the opposite.

Accurately describing the world is what religion is worst at. Religion is, and always has been, about stories and metaphors and human desires being used to shape an image of the world around us. Religion is more about the ideal than the reality. More about the should be than the is, if you get my drift.

I'd say it's the opposite.

Accurately describing the world is what religion is worst at. Religion is, and always has been, about stories and metaphors and human desires being used to shape an image of the world around us. Religion is more about the ideal than the reality. More about the should be than the is, if you get my drift.

Read Pratchett much ;) ?

If Vishnu and the pantheon around is the real one then how could Christianity be the right religion for Christians nevertheless?


Heh easy, what if all perceptions of God where just perceptions? Just mankinds attempt to describe what may be indescribeable. What if there was only one God, and this God was all Gods.

Then both followers of Vishu, and followers of Jehova could both be right. It is only their perceptions that differ.

Yeah you are undoubedtly right on that score, but you really think that such expresion is only ever a manifestation of morality or creativity? Nope I just don't belive that is the case.
I suppose it can also be a manifestation of necessity.

Like I said: people choose religion to suit their personal needs and wants. It's a reflection of the individual.I agree with your general sentiment, but even at a casual glance, the world would seem to contradict the quoted bit.

I think it's more accurate to say the people who want religion, have whatever religion's thrust upon them. And then interpret it in whichever way suits them.

Its about personal choice, and right and wrong is subjective anyway.

Switch it to politics, why if there is only one subjective 'right' way of goverment do we have so many flavours of politics? Even with politics, something that we can objectivly show to exist, we all have differing opinions on what is the right way.

Back over to questions of God, for which there is no objective proof whatso ever, then it all becomes opinion. How to prove which subjctive opinion is objectivly right?

Can't be done, hence whatever religoin you feel more comfatable is the right one for you, in this period of your life.So religion is in fact disconnected from the issue of religion, from the actual divine? Then why engage in religion at all?

Read Pratchett much ;) ?
Actually, no. But now I'm thinking I should!

Switch it to politics, why if there is only one subjective 'right' way of goverment do we have so many flavours of politics?

Because circumstances and people change. God, gods, spiritual energy or whatever one believes in are generally considered to be eternal.

Heh easy, what if all perceptions of God where just perceptions? Just mankinds attempt to describe what may be indescribeable. What if there was only one God, and this God was all Gods.

Then both followers of Vishu, and followers of Jehova could both be right. It is only their perceptions that differ.Yeah, that's what Mormons claim. :rolleyes:
So which is the truly "right" religion then? And why?

Actually, no. But now I'm thinking I should!

For this specific quote you could also watch the hogfather movie ;)


Susan “You’re saying that humans need fantasies to make life bearable”
Death “No, humans need fantasy to be human, to be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape”
Susan “With Tooth Fairies, Hogfathers”
Death “Yes, as practise, you have to start out learning to believe the little lies”
Susan “So we can believe the big ones”
Death “Yes, Justice, Mercy, Duty, that sort of thing”
Susan “They’re not the same at all”
Death “You think so? Then take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve, and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy. And yet; you try to act as if there is some ideal order in the world, as if there is some, some rightness in the universe by which it may be judged”
Susan “But people have got to believe that, or what’s the point”
Death “You need to believe in things that aren’t true, how else can they become”

(Capitals from Deaths words and some sentences removed for easier reading)

I'd say it's the opposite.

Accurately describing the world is what religion is worst at. Religion is, and always has been, about stories and metaphors and human desires being used to shape an image of the world around us. Religion is more about the ideal than the reality. More about the should be than the is, if you get my drift.So there should be a God but there is none?

I agree with your general sentiment, but even at a casual glance, the world would seem to contradict the quoted bit.

I think it's more accurate to say the people who want religion, have whatever religion's thrust upon them. And then interpret it in whichever way suits them.
To be sure, a lot of social and cultural forces will create needs and wants, and religion is a huge social/cultural force. So it can be a bit of a snake-eating-its-own-tail kind of thing.

For instance, my culture creates a lot of anxieties about sex. A lot of people have a lot of worries about what is "moral" sex and what isn't, what kind of sex "moral" people will have, and how their sexual choices will reflect on their "moral purity" and whatnot. Religions often provide answers to these questions, and help reassure people and calm their anxieties by providing guidelines for what is and is not appropriate sexuality.

But the anxieties about sex are largely due to religiously-based cultural and social ideas in the first place! So it's circular.

Jane grows up being taught to feel good, pure "Catholic guilt" about her body and sex. Adult Jane, therefore, carries around concerns about purity and sexuality. She finds comfort in using the rules of the Catholic faith to reassure herself that she's a good person and she's following the rules, and therefore can feel more comfortable about the sex she's having.

This is just a small example, and certainly does NOT apply to all people (or even all Catholics). But you get the idea.

So religion is in fact disconnected from the issue of religion, from the actual divine? Then why engage in religion at all?

No I don't see how religoin can be disconected from itself?

There are all sorts of people in the world some are unconcerned with the big questions of life, some are only concered with the how questions of life, and some are more concerend with the whys.

Religoin, God is an answer to some of these why questions. If you are the sort of person that just needs to know why, then you will undoubtedly have a look at religion to see if any of it makes sense.

Like anything else in life, why do some people collect stamps? I don't get that urge myself, but I do understand that some people do. Its a strange question to ask, you may as well ask why do some people support Man Utd football club?

So there should be a God but there is none?
Not quite.

God is a should be.

So religion is in fact disconnected from the issue of religion, from the actual divine? Then why engage in religion at all?I think you're looking at it wrong.

I can't think of a single thing the existence or non-existence of divinity would affect. I do, however, associate every day with people whose equilibrium is greatly affected by their own opinion of the existence and nature of divinity.

For this specific quote you could also watch the hogfather movie ;)



(Capitals from Deaths words and some sentences removed for easier reading)
Wow, that's actually kinda cool.

TO THE LIBRARY!!

Yeah, that's what Mormons claim. :rolleyes:
So which is the truly "right" religion then? And why?

Heh you havn't go it yet?

Can you prove to me that God exists?

No you can't so there is no 'right' there is no objective right about it. So the only answer that I can give is one that I have already given. It is up to the idividual to find what is right for them.

Because circumstances and people change. God, gods, spiritual energy or whatever one believes in are generally considered to be eternal.

Yeah but people change, and so our view of things change. God is eternal, but our ideas of God are bound to change.

No I don't see how religoin can be disconected from itself?

There are all sorts of people in the world some are unconcerned with the big questions of life, some are only concered with the how questions of life, and some are more concerend with the whys.

Religoin, God is an answer to some of these why questions. If you are the sort of person that just needs to know why, then you will undoubtedly have a look at religion to see if any of it makes sense.

Like anything else in life, why do some people collect stamps? I don't get that urge myself, but I do understand that some people do. Its a strange question to ask, you may as well ask why do some people support Man Utd football club?The issue of religion is not religion itself, but god(s). And now that you say it doesn't matter what religion one follows, i.e. the rituals and beliefs, then the god(s) become irrelevant and religion is only exercised for religion's sake.

Heh you havn't go it yet?

Can you prove to me that God exists?

No you can't so there is no 'right' there is no objective right about it. So the only answer that I can give is one that I have already given. It is up to the idividual to find what is right for them."right for them" is a meaningless phrase. The individual's opinions are of no relevance if you want to know about the divine. If there is no objective "right", how can there be a subjective "right" without being empty?

"right for them" is a meaningless phrase. The individual's opinions are of no relevance if you want to know about the divine. If there is no objective "right", how can there be a subjective "right" without being empty?
Religion can't tell you anything more about the divine than jumping rope can. If you're using religion to try to gain factual understanding of the external universe, you're using it wrong.

"right for them" is a meaningless phrase. The individual's opinions are of no relevance if you want to know about the divine. If there is no objective "right", how can there be a subjective "right" without being empty?That depends. Is it important to you that I don't rape, kill and eat you? If it is, then it can't be entirely "empty" that such actions would violate my ethics.

The issue of religion is not religion itself, but god(s). And now that you say it doesn't matter what religion one follows, i.e. the rituals and beliefs, then the god(s) become irrelevant and religion is only exercised for religion's sake.

No I didn't say that. For the religous it matters wholey what religoin they are. What does not matter(from my relgious perspective) is what religoin people choose to be. I see Christians jews,muslims, pagans whatever as fundemently looking towards the same God(there is only one) call God Paul, Ringo, George or John, it dosn't matter.

"right for them" is a meaningless phrase. The individual's opinions are of no relevance if you want to know about the divine. If there is no objective "right", how can there be a subjective "right" without being empty?

No I belive you are quite wrong. When talking about a sphere of knowledge for which there is no (objective)evidance, then opinion is all that counts, as that is all there is.

Even my belife can only be my opinion, and so as such there is no right or wrong, only on a personal level. Hence right for me.

No I belive you are quite wrong. When talking about a sphere of knowledge for which there is no (objective)evidance, then opinion is all that counts, as that is all there is.

Even my belife can only be my opinion, and so as such there is no right or wrong, only on a personal level. Hence right for me.Let me just hurry to add that this was what I was getting at. I wasn't threatening to eat anyone. I'm a vegan ;)

No I belive you are quite wrong. When talking about a sphere of knowledge for which there is no (objective)evidance, then opinion is all that counts, as that is all there is.No. In that case you should not form an opinion at all, and just leave the matter for future research to figure out.

Even my belife can only be my opinion, and so as such there is no right or wrong, only on a personal level. Hence right for me.The personal level is of no significance if you want to make statements on the value of religion as such, because it is not measured against the individual's beliefs but against (apparent) reality.

That depends. Is it important to you that I don't rape, kill and eat you? If it is, then it can't be entirely "empty" that such actions would violate my ethics.Ethics do not depend on religion.

No. In that case you should not form an opinion at all, and just leave the matter for future research to figure out.

Really? In fact I should only do that which I want to, or need to. Do you really say though that we should not think about, contemplate, wonder and form opinions on things just because we don't know the answer?



The personal level is of no significance if you want to make statements on the value of religion as such, because it is not measured against the individual's beliefs but against (apparent) reality.

No it is merely my opinions weighted agaisnt others opinions. Are you saying that there is something inherently wrong with this?

Let me ask you this, what is the best genre of music and why?

Now because this question also cannot be objectivly answered along right and wrong lines, it can only be discussed on a subjective basis, should we not even bother?

Ethics do not depend on religion.Nor did I claim that they do. I'm an atheist, so my ethics aren't build around my interpretation of a religion. But that's the sole difference. You can no more accurately claim the ethics of an atheist or the loosely religion-based morality of a theist, are "empty".

But I guess that's ignoring the better question; what difference is there, or would there be, between something that is subjectively right/true and something that is objectively right/true?

Deity X may well exist. I can't rule out the possibility. But whether or not it does, makes no difference to me. Deity X could be my neighbour. It still wouldn't make it's decrees override, or even affect, my own. Deity X isn't me, and doesn't matter to me.

Really? In fact I should only do that which I want to, or need to. Do you really say though that we should not think about, contemplate, wonder and form opinions on things just because we don't know the answer?You should at least not pretend to know the answer, as religions habitually do.

No it is merely my opinions weighted agaisnt others opinions. Are you saying that there is something inherently wrong with this?

Let me ask you this, what is the best genre of music and why?

Now because this question also cannot be objectivly answered along right and wrong lines, it can only be discussed on a subjective basis, should we not even bother?Music taste is a matter of opinion, the actual existence of a god is not. Either the god exists or not, there is no middle option.

Nor did I claim that they do. I'm an atheist, so my ethics aren't build around my interpretation of a religion. But that's the sole difference. You can no more accurately claim the ethics of an atheist or the loosely religion-based morality of a theist, are "empty".

But I guess that's ignoring the better question; what difference is there, or would there be, between something that is subjectively right/true and something that is objectively right/true?

Deity X may well exist. I can't rule out the possibility. But whether or not it does, makes no difference to me. Deity X could be my neighbour. It still wouldn't make it's decrees override, or even affect, my own. Deity X isn't me, and doesn't matter to me.

And because ther can be no objective veriycation of your belife on the subject, your opinion is as good as anybody elses on the subject. Note when I say good, I do not mean has merit, that is a whole other debate.

You should at least not pretend to know the answer, as religions habitually do.

Heh I'll tell you what if you can point me out anywhere I have said that, or alluded to it, over my past two years here than I'll agree with you. Bearing in mind the nature of our recent conversation though you don't really belive I have said it yourself do ya.

I don't know the answer, i don't know if God exists or not. I belive God does, and I belive the religoin I practice to be right for me.


Music taste is a matter of opinion, the actual existence of a god is not. Either the god exists or not, there is no middle option.

How do you get there then? Can you either prove that God exists or does not exist?

How do you get there then? Can you either prove that God exists or does not exist?

It is impossible to prove wether "something that could be defined as god" exists or not. But it is possible to prove that "God" (as a personified and identifiable character) does not. For proof, please refer to UB's sig :
There Is No Biblical God.

Ever since the dawn of man, man has worshiped a higher power, whether it's the Druids, Norse, Egyptian, Greeks, Roman, or the Christians, Jews, Muslim of today. While religion does give answers (until a better one came along) to life's great mysteries, in this modern day and age, I can't help but wonder, does religion really matter? I mean why would an entity, that pretty much is greater than humans really care about how we worship it, or if we even acknowledge it? I just don't see the point in religion nowadays espically since really all religion does is just divides humanity up instead of bringing them together. I just think that ultimately, the way you worship a higher power isn't going to matter as much as the way you act towards your fellow man and how you conduct yourself as a human being. What do you guys think?

I have become increasingly proud of you, Wilgrove...you're moving further and further towards understanding reality. Sure, it's taking you a while, but hey, you're changing for the better.

Now if only you'd stop being a libertarian...

Religion does indeed divide and cause wars true enough..but mankind is
still as primitive as the day he stepped out of the caves..
and needs religion to teach humanity right from wrong
for evidence i would sight the French revolution..soon after burning the churches and executing the priests the leaders of the "enlightenment"
realized they had a mob of mindless savages loose and realized religion serves a vital purpose in society..social cohesion..besides there very well may be a god a very large white man sitting on a throne on a cloud...and he is having a good laugh..like a young child playing with an ant colony..
google gnosticism the answer lies there.:cool:

Heh I don't think for a second that mankind needs religoin to to teach us right from wrong. Indeed much wrong has been done by religous people, so we certianly do not get our morals from religoin.

It seems astounding to me that people talk about any one thing, idea or principle being the fix for the whole of humainty.

We are all differant and we should therefore be handled diferantly. One fix for all, makes no sense at all.

Wow, we managed to avoid the flame wars. Amazing. Or did I miss it?

Here's my two cents' worth, not sure if its even worth two cents though... Just defining stuff and making the question clearer...

The question being "Does religion matter?" pertains either to how religion matters towards humanity as a whole or personally to the reader.

1. How religion matters towards humanity as a whole involves what sort of impact humanity having or not having religion would have and if those effects were desirable.
Religion has been argued in this thread (as far as I read anyway) to have a negative (most agreed it is negative) effect of dividing society and causing conflict among social members having differing religions. In response, a positive (once again, most agreed it is positive) effect could be that religion serves to let society remain organized.

-This establishes the fact that religion does indeed have an impact on society, making our debate center on whether the net effect of religion is positive or negative. Which should be what this question essentially is, and which I will keep silent on. =) (for this post anyway)

I would especially like to read if anyone else would define the question differently. And if anyone has thought of any other effects of religion, I would like to read them too.

2. My personal take on the impact of religion is that religion has a net positive effect, at least the more benign ones do. (eg. Christianity, Buddhism...) But allowing every person his/her own take on religion (so long as he/she does not disrupt efficient running of society) would have a greater net positive value by allowing for the exchange of differing ideas.

Then again, even if I thought that religion had a net negative impact, I couldn't do very much could I? =(

-Oh well, so much for big words... Comments? Ideas?

I would especially like to read if anyone else would define the question differently. And if anyone has thought of any other effects of religion, I would like to read them too.I don't think it can be simplified this much. Religion can and have added to social cohesion, but so has a number of other things, and a number of other things might well do so far better than religion can.

In a nutshell, it comes down to circumstance, and since religion both help create and maintain 'circumstance', any claim that it's effect is positive or negative is basically inanity. There's no way, or at least no terribly accurate way, to make that sort of determination.

Still.. Would the world be better in general, if we all were atheist syndicalists? I think it would. I can't imagine anything that could stop it from being a better place. But it's a personal opinion based on wishful thinking.

2. My personal take on the impact of religion is that religion has a net positive effect, at least the more benign ones do. (eg. Christianity, Buddhism...) But allowing every person his/her own take on religion (so long as he/she does not disrupt efficient running of society) would have a greater net positive value by allowing for the exchange of differing ideas.If you were less all-inclusive, I'd agree. I'm pretty sure people like UB, Bottle and myself aren't compatible with any kind of religion. I know I'm not, and since there's always been non-religious and anti-religious people around (the distinction is in the eyes of the beholder, I think), I'm inclined to think lots of people simply aren't compatible with religion.

But for those unlike me, I'm sure you're right. My wife is religious, and while it is mildly befuddling to me on occasion, it seems exclusively a positive thing for her. I've come to think of it as akin to meditation, since the over-all effect seems very similar.

I'm also sure there's lots of exceptions, but whether those are religious in nature, or rather a result of stagnant and regressive social values and peer pressure, I simply can't determine. I'm inclined to think the latter though, since people outside such environments generally seem pleased with their beliefs, if they have them.

Ever since the dawn of man, man has worshiped a higher power, whether it's the Druids, Norse, Egyptian, Greeks, Roman, or the Christians, Jews, Muslim of today. While religion does give answers (until a better one came along) to life's great mysteries, in this modern day and age, I can't help but wonder, does religion really matter? I mean why would an entity, that pretty much is greater than humans really care about how we worship it, or if we even acknowledge it? I just don't see the point in religion nowadays espically since really all religion does is just divides humanity up instead of bringing them together. I just think that ultimately, the way you worship a higher power isn't going to matter as much as the way you act towards your fellow man and how you conduct yourself as a human being. What do you guys think?
Ever since the dawn of man, man has eaten food, pissed, and slept, too. They eat different things all over the world. Sometimes they piss standing, other times sitting, sometimes outdoors, sometimes indoors. Sometimes they sleep in beds, or on the floor, or on the back of a horse. It does not matter how we do these things. It only matters that we do them because we have to in order to live.

Now, granted, religion is not quite on the same order of necessity as food, urination and sleep, but it is universal enough to qualify, in my opinion (and others') as a human trait (albeit one with vast normal individual variations, like physical appearance; normal variation apparently includes everything from zero to whoa-nelly!). It is something we do. The fact that we do it in different ways and to such vastly different degrees shows, to me, that the form of it is the part that doesn't matter.

Yet it is the forms of religion that tend to cause all the troubles related to it. Why?

I don't know the answer, exactly, but I can't help thinking of Swift's "Gulliver's Travels" and the Lilliputians, who fought endless decades of war against their neighbors over a dispute over whether it was more proper to crack open a boiled egg at the big end or the little end.

I also can't help thinking of my favorite quote from another of my favorite authors, Lawrence Sterne: "Life's too short to be long about the forms of it."

So, does religion matter? Possibly, but probably not in the way that people are used to talking about it.

Let me just hurry to add that this was what I was getting at. I wasn't threatening to eat anyone. I'm a vegan ;)

Vegan? Yuck. Hand me another pork chop :p .

You should at least not pretend to know the answer, as religions habitually do.

Music taste is a matter of opinion, the actual existence of a god is not. Either the god exists or not, there is no middle option.

Actually, in that case it depends on what criteria are used to denote godhood.

I have become increasingly proud of you, Wilgrove...you're moving further and further towards understanding reality. Sure, it's taking you a while, but hey, you're changing for the better.

Now if only you'd stop being a libertarian...

I will always be a Libertarian! :D

Deity X may well exist. I can't rule out the possibility. But whether or not it does, makes no difference to me. Deity X could be my neighbour. It still wouldn't make it's decrees override, or even affect, my own. Deity X isn't me, and doesn't matter to me.Exactly.

The funny thing is, all people work this way, most especially the religious.

Whether or not God actually exists as they envision Him doesn't really matter, in terms of their personal morality. They have "faith." Whether or not their God actually exists doesn't matter in practice.

Ever since the dawn of man, man has worshiped a higher power, whether it's the Druids, Norse, Egyptian, Greeks, Roman, or the Christians, Jews, Muslim of today. While religion does give answers (until a better one came along) to life's great mysteries, in this modern day and age, I can't help but wonder, does religion really matter? I mean why would an entity, that pretty much is greater than humans really care about how we worship it, or if we even acknowledge it? I just don't see the point in religion nowadays espically since really all religion does is just divides humanity up instead of bringing them together. I just think that ultimately, the way you worship a higher power isn't going to matter as much as the way you act towards your fellow man and how you conduct yourself as a human being. What do you guys think?

From a Christian perspective I will answer you thus.

Christianity isn't about worship. This is a mistake people often make. God is not some sort of egotist needing us to bow down to him to make him feel good. What he wants is for us to love him, but thats not an egotist thing, its the same way a parent would like their son/daughter to love them back. I agree with you, Jesus said how you love your fellow man is important. Jesus said those were the two commands on which conducting yourself as a human being hinges. Love the lord your God and love your neighbour as yourself. Ultimately being a Christian is about your reaction to God and sin. Being a Christian is about three things
1. Saying sorry to God for the sin you have done
2. Saying thank you to God for taking it from you (Jesus)
3. Saying that you will do your best for God now on
Doing your best for God doesnt mean singing the loudest and worshiping the most, it means doing what he asks of you. And you find that out through prayer and reading the Bible

Is religion important?

I'm not going to get into the positives and negatives of religion on people/society/world.

This is for the afterlife -- we'll find out if religion is important at judgment (if there is one), when each of us dies.

If there is a God, and if it/he/she is omnipotent, then it/he/she will decide what happens to us when we die... that is to say, I doubt highly we'll be able to "pick" where we go.

Man proposes, God disposes. This is likely the case, if there is a God.