NationStates Jolt Archive

link (http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/National/2007/06/30/4302256-sun.html)
Divided by method but united in their message, Canadian aboriginal groups gathered across the country yesterday to demand action on resolving decades-old grievances they say have stunted their growth and nearly destroyed their culture.

First Nations groups and their supporters, both militant and middle-ground, marked the national day of action with marches, blockades, information sessions and even newspaper ads.

Well, we kept it peaceful. There were marches (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm8kCGXEo2o&NR=1), blockades (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/06/28/protest-aboriginal.html?ref=rss) that shut down railway lines and major highways, and protests from west to east coast.

Did you notice? Did you know about this beforehand? Comments?

AFN Chief, Phil Fontain, announcing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_bK_ww0rDA) the day of action.

Armed blockades seem a bit much

And this doesn't sound too good:

"It's our intent to go out and ensure a safe day. Unfortunately, previous incidents have shown that aggressive tactics by the police need to be met with equal resistance by the people they're bringing those against."

Armed blockades seem a bit much

And this doesn't sound too good:

"It's our intent to go out and ensure a safe day. Unfortunately, previous incidents have shown that aggressive tactics by the police need to be met with equal resistance by the people they're bringing those against."

Goddamned right.
Ipperwash (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/ipperwash/) and Oka (http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-71-99/conflict_war/oka/) prove that point well.

Nonetheless, both sides have hopefully learned from those situations, and although segements of BOTH sides came into this day armed, and ready, there was no violence. You should have seen the police in their riot gear. It was ridiculous.

The point is, you had a broad front, from very moderate, to more militant. We didn't all agree on what tactics to use, and really, that wasn't the issue for us. The point was getting enough momentum and solidarity to get some attention for aboriginal issues. I'm not going to condemn Kahnawake for their blockades, any more than I'm going to deride Alberta chiefs who just put out adds in papers.

Nonetheless, both sides have hopefully learned from those situations, and although segements of BOTH sides came into this day armed, and ready, there was no violence. You should have seen the police in their riot gear. It was ridiculous.



They came armed all the same. If the police had moved aggresively against them I don't see how firing on them would help things. I'm not really sure I should be debating here anywho what with my not being Canadian and all that. Got an aunt and uncle in Ontario if that counts :)

They came armed all the same. If the police had moved aggresively against them I don't see how firing on them would help things. I'm not really sure I should be debating here anywho what with my not being Canadian and all that. Got an aunt and uncle in Ontario if that counts :)

*shrugs* Their choice, and considering the history in that particular area, I don't disagree with their concerns. No one I came across was armed, except the police.

Congratulations. It sounds like it was a fun time.

*shrugs* Their choice, and considering the history in that particular area, I don't disagree with their concerns. No one I came across was armed, except the police.

Well apart from that small issue I have with it it seems like a great achievement

Well apart from that small issue I have with it it seems like a great achievement

And remember...we're only about 4% of the population, and incredibly spread out. Quite honestly, to get this going, considering the diversity of our nations, and our politics (Phil Fontaine may appear to speak for all the chiefs, but that is hardly the case) was very touch and go. I'm really proud of people for coming out, and I include the non-aboriginals that were supporting us.

And remember...we're only about 4% of the population, and incredibly spread out. Quite honestly, to get this going, considering the diversity of our nations, and our politics (Phil Fontaine may appear to speak for all the chiefs, but that is hardly the case) was very touch and go. I'm really proud of people for coming out, and I include the non-aboriginals that were supporting us.

Yikes thats almost the population of Northern Ireland. I didn't realise it was that many

Yikes thats almost the population of Northern Ireland. I didn't realise it was that many

1.3 million...but again, spread out over a huge area.

1.3 million...but again, spread out over a huge area.

Live and learn I guess. Thanks :)

I especially like the use of information sessions as part of all this

While I agree with the fundamental idea that there needs to be a better response from the federal government in regards to the land claims, and a proper implementation of the Kelowna Accord, the methods used to achieve their ends are detrimental to the cause.

The Aboriginals have a right to express themselves and demand government action but I believe that this course of action, their method of civil disobedience will hurt their cause more than it'll help.

If they want to educate Canadians about their plight, they first need to not irritate those they need to win over.

You attract flies with honey and not vinegar.

Sorry. We're a little tired of history repeating. We involve ourselves in consultation processes that stretch on for decades and cost millions upon millions of tax dollars...we work at building bridges all the time. Report after report comes out admitting to system-wide racism, and urges real change...only to be published and gather dust.

So sometimes we need to make some noise and say, 'hey, we're still fucking here at the negotiating table...how about you try again, in good faith this time?'

You'd be amazed at how many people still know next to nothing about aboriginal issues in Canada. At least we got to talk to some of those people yesterday, and get them to take notice. The screaming idiots hurling eggs and racist slurs were never going to support us...if we ticked them off, I really don't care. The ones who came and asked questions, and were genuinely shocked by what they were hearing? That made it all worth it.

Action IS education. Just another form of it.

It's too bad it had to happen on my grad day. If it had been another time, I would have been brainstorming ways to pretend to be Native so I could participate. I hate being white.

It's too bad it had to happen on my grad day. If it had been another time, I would have been brainstorming ways to pretend to be Native so I could participate. I hate being white.

Why?

Not to mention that the bulk of action were information sessions. Blockades were in the minority, but of course received a lot of attention. As they should. You need a good mix of actions for this sort of thing to have any impact. If it was ALL blockades, you know how we would be portrayed...but it wasn't. The Mi'kmaq, for example, didn't even block a road going through their lands...they just stood out there on the side of the road with placards and made their presence known. But a bunch of burly Mi'kmaq will get anyone's attention :D

It's too bad it had to happen on my grad day. If it had been another time, I would have been brainstorming ways to pretend to be Native so I could participate. I hate being white.

???

Plenty of non-aboriginal people were out in solidarity with us. I didn't see any who felt they had to pretend to be native...do you just mean so you could skip out or something? Is this some tongue-in-cheek barb about how you know someone who knows someone who said that native kids used this as an excuse to cut class?

???

Plenty of non-aboriginal people were out in solidarity with us. I didn't see any who felt they had to pretend to be native...do you just mean so you could skip out or something? Is this some tongue-in-cheek barb about how you know someone who knows someone who said that native kids used this as an excuse to cut class?

No, we don't even have class right now. It was a tongue-in-cheek barb about how I'm always trying to pretend I'm not white, because I'm so ashamed of the past behaviour of my race. I always claim to be asian or whatever, and then people are like, "You are whiter than skim milk."

No, we don't even have class right now. It was a tongue-in-cheek barb about how I'm always trying to pretend I'm not white, because I'm so ashamed of the past behaviour of my race. I always claim to be asian or whatever, and then people are like, "You are whiter than skim milk."

Why should you be ashamed of something you had no part in? Be ashamed if you ignore it and perpetuate it rather than trying to improve it but it is stupid to be ashamed of your race.

Why?

It's boring, and I sunburn so easily. Plus, people with darker skin get to wear awesome brightly coloured make-ups.

Neesika, I realise this is a delicate issue, but, I think in a way, the blockades hurt more than they help because the Aboriginals target is the federal government and not the Canadian people. Unfortunately, the action taken hurts the public as well and it doesn't foster good feelings.

You say that action IS education, but when that action affects others who have done no wrong, that action is not justifiable. Why should those of us who have no bearing over the federal (and provincial) government's treatment of Aboriginals be target of your collective (and rightful) anger?

Yes we vote for them, but we don't have control over what they do once they've been elected...

Why should you be ashamed of something you had no part in? Be ashamed if you ignore it and perpetuate it rather than trying to improve it but it is stupid to be ashamed of your race.

It's mostly a joke. What's the point in belonging to any group if you can't make fun of yourself for it?

It's mostly a joke. What's the point in belonging to any group if you can't make fun of yourself for it?

You're jokingly ashamed of being white so you jokingly pretend to be asian?

You're jokingly ashamed of being white so you jokingly pretend to be asian?

Sort of. It's really complicated. I can't believe one stupid little thing I said as a joke turned into such a big deal for everybody to get all offended over. I'm remembering now why I've been avoiding NSG for the past couple weeks.

link (http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/National/2007/06/30/4302256-sun.html)


Well, we kept it peaceful. There were marches (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm8kCGXEo2o&NR=1), blockades (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/06/28/protest-aboriginal.html?ref=rss) that shut down railway lines and major highways, and protests from west to east coast.

Did you notice? Did you know about this beforehand? Comments?

AFN Chief, Phil Fontain, announcing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_bK_ww0rDA) the day of action.

I heard about it. Didn't affect me. Who was that dick Shawn Brant, though - with all his blustery talk beforehand, of guns and rifles? Quite a novel way to win friends and influence people, I must say.

I heard about it. Didn't affect me. Who was that dick Shawn Brant, though - with all his blustery talk beforehand, of guns and rifles? Quite a novel way to win friends and influence people, I must say.
You already said it..he's a dick. Trashed some RCMP offices a while back as I recall. I heard through the grapevine that he's up on charges for his part in the blockades.

And I disagree. Our target is the federal, provincial, and municipal governments AND the Canadian people. Yes yes, we vote them in and then they go off and do their thing, so really we have nothing to do with this whole thing...

No. Actually, that's a bit of a cop out. Political will doesn't arise out of the merry blue yonder. Politicians don't make a single move that doesn't have some sort of basis in constituent support. The various Royal Commissions, and inquiries happened because enough NON-aboriginal people were making noise. Ditto on the Residential schools issue, the Kelowna Accords, the treaty negotiations.

Those people who want to say, 'I support you, but you've alienated me with this', well...frankly I call bullshit. It's the same BS that people who obstensibly support unions pull out during a strike. It's the same BS that people who supposedly are behind teachers pull out during contract negotiations. It's a fair-weather support and I don't particularily count on it.

We are many people, many nations. We run the gamut from the most conservative to the most insanely liberal, but in the end, we are united in a common desire to actually see some movement when it comes towards dealing with our issues. The Shawn Brants of the movement are no more totaly representative of us than the Phil Fontaines. But again, I begrude neither of them their part.

We have numerous political organisations that do nothing but work with government and attempt to educate the public. But we also need those among us who are willing to engage in civil disobedience.

When it comes to non-aboriginal support, well once again...if someone is willing to 'abandon us' because of this day of action, I really can't say much more than...oh well.

In terms of your own position, Dobbs, hey, it's your opinion and you're welcome to it. We've discussed this sort of thing before, and I doubt either of us are going to budge. I know many people do not support civil disobedience, or not past a certain point...many of our OWN people do not. But the last thing I ever want us to become is one, monolithic group with a single goal, and a single method. If avoiding that means putting up with some of the crazies in our midst...so be it. My take on it, anyway.

I think this protest was about 130 years too late.

I think this protest was about 130 years too late.

How insightful of you.

Yes. One protest in 130 years. That's exactly what we're talking about. Not a sustained movement tied into various struggles.

How insightful of you.

Yes. One protest in 130 years. That's exactly what we're talking about. Not a sustained movement tied into various struggles.

I'd like to post my real opinion but I think it might make you explode.

I'd like to post my real opinion but I think it might make you explode.

No, do go on. I've already seen what an incredible grasp you have on aboriginal issues...I'm sure whatever you say will both enlighten me, and anyone who reads it.

No, do go on. I've already seen what an incredible grasp you have on aboriginal issues...I'm sure whatever you say will both enlighten me, and anyone who reads it.

Actually, I'm kindof expecting the explosion too. I brought an underground bunker and everything.

Actually, I'm kindof expecting the explosion too. I brought an underground bunker and everything.

Why explode? I can decimate whatever weak argument he brings, and he knows it...unless he provides a pure opinion, with no attempt to declare any 'facts'...at which point I will simply say, 'thanks for the input'.

Though underground bunkers are just fun, period.

So basically 90% of his argument is good.

Why explode? I can decimate whatever weak argument he brings, and he knows it.

Though underground bunkers are just fun, period.

What I know is that you will read but not intake what I'm bothered to post, and then tell me how horribly mutilated my opinion is, rather than debating my argument.

Although I respect you and what you have to say on almost everything else, here it's like trying to put a napalm fire out with water.

You already said it..he's a dick. Trashed some RCMP offices a while back as I recall. I heard through the grapevine that he's up on charges for his part in the blockades.

And I disagree. Our target is the federal, provincial, and municipal governments AND the Canadian people. Yes yes, we vote them in and then they go off and do their thing, so really we have nothing to do with this whole thing...

No. Actually, that's a bit of a cop out. Political will doesn't arise out of the merry blue yonder. Politicians don't make a single move that doesn't have some sort of basis in constituent support. The various Royal Commissions, and inquiries happened because enough NON-aboriginal people were making noise. Ditto on the Residential schools issue, the Kelowna Accords, the treaty negotiations.

Those people who want to say, 'I support you, but you've alienated me with this', well...frankly I call bullshit. It's the same BS that people who obstensibly support unions pull out during a strike. It's the same BS that people who supposedly are behind teachers pull out during contract negotiations. It's a fair-weather support and I don't particularily count on it.

We are many people, many nations. We run the gamut from the most conservative to the most insanely liberal, but in the end, we are united in a common desire to actually see some movement when it comes towards dealing with our issues. The Shawn Brants of the movement are no more totaly representative of us than the Phil Fontaines. But again, I begrude neither of them their part.

We have numerous political organisations that do nothing but work with government and attempt to educate the public. But we also need those among us who are willing to engage in civil disobedience.

When it comes to non-aboriginal support, well once again...if someone is willing to 'abandon us' because of this day of action, I really can't say much more than...oh well.

In terms of your own position, Dobbs, hey, it's your opinion and you're welcome to it. We've discussed this sort of thing before, and I doubt either of us are going to budge. I know many people do not support civil disobedience, or not past a certain point...many of our OWN people do not. But the last thing I ever want us to become is one, monolithic group with a single goal, and a single method. If avoiding that means putting up with some of the crazies in our midst...so be it. My take on it, anyway.

Neesika, when I said, "Way to win friends and influence people", I wasn't referring to the nationwide event - I was referring specifically to Mr. Brant. I actually do support civil disobedience, strongly in fact - but I thought you knew that. I also know the media most likely sought him out in order to sensationalize yesterday's events & provide the best possible rallying point for negativity on either side of the equation. I'd like to think I'm not so gullible as to let myself be spoonfed some hitherto-unmentioned homegrown villain of sorts, concocted by the press.

I suppose more than anything, I'd wondered to what extent Brant's sensibilities resonate on anything other than a local level. And insofar as we've disagreed in the past, I don't really believe we're on opposing sides where yesterday's Day of Action is concerned.

Well, we kept it peaceful. There were marches (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm8kCGXEo2o&NR=1), blockades (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/06/28/protest-aboriginal.html?ref=rss) that shut down railway lines and major highways, and protests from west to east coast.

Did you notice? Did you know about this beforehand? Comments?

AFN Chief, Phil Fontain, announcing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_bK_ww0rDA) the day of action.
Talk about ineffectual, eh? Go you. (I don't turn on the television or radio.)

What I know is that you will read but not intake what I'm bothered to post, and then tell me how horribly mutilated my opinion is, rather than debating my argument.

Although I respect you and what you have to say on almost everything else, here it's like trying to put a napalm fire out with water.

I can't really debate your opinions. I can, however, debate whatever points you'd like to bring up to back up those opinions.

If you think I'm not understanding something that you are saying, then please tell me so, and clarify your position.

BUT, if all you have is opinion...you don't have an argument. Which is true of any issue.

So? Try me. Or not. Whatever.

Edit: and by the way...I seem to recall that YOU were the one freaking out in that australian aborigine thread, when you made a random comment about diet, and you were asked by both me and Jocabia to elaborate. Got all huffy and such.

Neesika, when I said, "Way to win friends and influence people", I wasn't referring to the nationwide event - I was referring specifically to Mr. Brant. I actually do support civil disobedience, strongly in fact - but I thought you knew that. I'm not sure to what extent you support civil disobedience, at at what point it crosses a line in your mind from civil...to just idiocy. That line seems to be set in different place in different people. So...I was trying not to make assumptions :P

Ugh. Mr. Brant. Well. I really have nothing good to say about him. However, for the most part, his trashy demeanour and gap-toothed idiocy seem to have prevented most people from painting us all with the same shit-stained stick he deserves. Yes, some people have held him up and said, 'see! See how these uppity Indians get!?'...but they do that anyway.

I also know the media most likely sought him out in order to sensationalize yesterday's events & provide the best possible rallying point for negativity on either side of the equation. I'd like to think I'm not so gullible as to let myself be spoonfed some hitherto-unmentioned homegrown villain of sorts, concocted by the press. Good, good. If it wasn't him, I have no doubt there would have been some other provocateur.

I suppose more than anything, I'd wondered to what extent Brant's sensibilities resonate on anything other than a local level. And insofar as we've disagreed in the past, I don't really believe we're on opposing sides where yesterday's Day of Action is concerned.Na, I doubt we are...though I think we have come to loggerheads in terms of my stridency...but anyway. No, Brant is not very favourably looked upon by the majority of leaders or average natives. He has his followers, of course, but mostly he's a 'meh'.

Talk about ineffectual, eh? Go you. (I don't turn on the television or radio.)

:P What...you expected the nation to be transformed afterwards? Come on now. We don't really expect much more than a possible return to discussing the Kelowna Accords...which would still be an incredibly favourably outcome, all things considering.

Are aboriginals the only disenfranchised group in Canada?

Are aboriginals the only disenfranchised group in Canada?

Buh?

It wasn't 'National Disenfranchised Canadian Day of Action'...so what relevance does your rhetorical question have?

Buh?

It wasn't 'National Disenfranchised Canadian Day of Action'...so what relevance does your rhetorical question have?
Just wondering why they think they deserve special treatment, is all. I mean "aboriginal issues," what the hell?

Just wondering why they think they deserve special treatment, is all. I mean "aboriginal issues," what the hell?

Um...yes...'aboriginal issues'. As opposed to other issues...you know, a way of telling them apart? Aboriginal issues would be issues that are specific to aboriginal people. Not that difficult to understand, is it?

Um...yes...'aboriginal issues'. As opposed to other issues...you know, a way of telling them apart? Aboriginal issues would be issues that are specific to aboriginal people. Not that difficult to understand, is it?

:rolleyes: C'mon, be realistic; we've all got issues. :p

Um...yes...'aboriginal issues'. As opposed to other issues...you know, a way of telling them apart? Aboriginal issues would be issues that are specific to aboriginal people. Not that difficult to understand, is it?
What issues do they have to any other disenfranchised group doesn't also struggle with?

:rolleyes: C'mon, be realistic; we've all got issues. :p
Yeah...it's terribly unfair to seek certainty, and differentiate between them at all. That clearly demonstrates an abusive hierachy of issues.

Yeah...it's terribly unfair to seek certainty, and differentiate between them at all. That clearly demonstrates an abusive hierachy of issues.
Well... to say "aboriginal issues" is kind of rather... vague. I mean, really. What issues? I mean, there are issues, then there are issues.

What issues do they have to any other disenfranchised group doesn't also struggle with?

Are you kidding?

What issues do they have to any other disenfranchised group doesn't also struggle with?

Well, I'd say it has to do with their antlers. Come on, give me a break NU. You're being deliberately obtuse.

Bah! Damned uppity natives getting p*ssy again. Sheesh, you'd think they thought they owned the land or something.....




Actually, saddly that's not far off a pretty common reaction. Largely because the background to the day of action, the issues, requests, etc. doesn't really get out to the general public. All they hear is the ten-second spot on the radio hearing to avoid Highway 2 for the day, and - because it isn't their issue - they tune out. At least in most parts of Ontario. Got an issue relating to women? Well, everyone has a mother/wife/daughter/siter/friend that it affects. Similarly with many other minority issues that gain more support as members of that minority gain better penetration in mainstream society. Natives, at 4% with so much of that largely still existing in remote communities, become one of those issues noted, but largely relegated to a non-issue for the average John Q. Whitey. Not because they are unfeeling, but because they are bombarded with so many causes and injustices these days.

From my own perspective though, the blockade downgraded a 3-day visit from the inlaws to a 2-day visit, so...... yay natives!! :D


I'll call you next time they're coming and see if you can block it for even longer, m'kay?

Never heard about it. Far too busy drink beer.

Well, I'd say it has to do with their antlers. Come on, give me a break NU. You're being deliberately obtuse.
I really don't know anything about the state of Canadian aboriginals. If it's anything like it is in the US, then yes, they do have some special concerns, concerns they aren't approaching productively in my opinion, but unique concerns none the less, but like I said, I don't know.

No, we don't even have class right now. It was a tongue-in-cheek barb about how I'm always trying to pretend I'm not white, because I'm so ashamed of the past behaviour of my race. I always claim to be asian or whatever, and then people are like, "You are whiter than skim milk."
Its ok to be white. Those shitholes are all dead or getting there.

Barely even noticed it. Though I was well aware of it in advance. Television and radio coverage was pretty much nill out in the Lower Mainland. This doesn't say much though, barely anything of foreign or domestic importance is covered in Canadian media. (Though we did get some nice spots on Paris Hilton getting out of jail and her Larry King episode on Global's world news segment.) Maybe they'll do some stories in a week after it's been thoroughly spin-dried.

Actually, even though I was aware of the upcoming Day of Action, and was reading about VIA's plans to shut down that day, the actual day itself seemed like a non-event (from a news standpoint.) That might just be due to it happening on the cusp of Canada Day, when people are more concerned with fireworks and Molson.

I'm a little divided on the various methods of protest and disobedience, but the important thing is raising the issue in the minds of all Canadians. I do, on one hand, understand what Kryozerkia is saying. It's like when the farmers were protesting in Toronto, and crawled down the 401 slowing down traffic (actually truck-drivers did the same thing.) This generally doesn't engender sympathy towards one's cause. But I think the most important aspect of this Day of Action was the truly Canada-wide scope of it. I'm thinking that scheduling it during the middle of a work-week or something might have been more effective.

Its ok to be white. Those shitholes are all dead or getting there.

Well the sun is kicking our ass, so those of us who are left will all be red-skinned anyway! Who needs a Day of Action then?

I really don't know anything about the state of Canadian aboriginals. If it's anything like it is in the US, then yes, they do have some special concerns, concerns they aren't approaching productively in my opinion, but unique concerns none the less, but like I said, I don't know.
Fair enough.

It's not as though all of our concerns are purely aboriginal concerns, and have nothing in common with any other group. Poverty and social justice issues are definitely some common ground we find with other groups.

However, some of the main ‘aboriginal’ issues:

a)We were dealt with as sovereign nations, with a recognised right to the lands. The Proclamation of 1763 made it clear that the Crown was the only one who had any right to extinguish aboriginal title to land. No subservient government, and no individual could buy land from Indians, and extinguish title. Therefore, aboriginal people living in areas where there has been no extinguishment (all of BC, most of the Maritimes, and much of the North) still retain title to the land. The fight here is for recognition of this and negotiation of modern treaties.

b) Because the Crown was the only one we could sell our lands to, a fiduciary responsibility arose on the part of the Crown. For example…if by law, I can only sell my lands to you…then what is to prevent you from setting the price as low as possible? Fiduciary responsibility. This is where you are bound to deal with us, with OUR best interests in mind, instead of yours. This fiduciary duty has been extended to treaty dealings, and to legal disputes based in treaty, or areas where there has been no title extinguishment. The fight here is to deal with breaches of this duty.

c) Aboriginal peoples are unique in that we come under the jurisdiction of the Federal government in almost all matters. Our health-care, our education etc, are all dealt with at a Federal, as opposed to Provincial level. The fight here is to ensure accountability, and to have adequate programs in place. In terms of education in particular, we want more say over how the schools are run for our people, and what programs are provided.

d) Although we are many nations, with many different languages, customs and beliefs, our basic systems are similar. We are a communal people, and remain so. Our land is held in common, as are our traditions, our laws, and our systems of governance. In fact, we have more in common with other indigenous peoples in other countries around the globe than we do with most of the people living in Canada. The fight here is to protect our traditional forms of community, law, and governance through self-government.

Most of all, we want to become a self-sufficient people again, without sacrificing our identities, our traditions, or our rights.

Fair enough.
Most of that seems pretty uniquely Canadian, except for the last bit.
Most of all, we want to become a self-sufficient people again, without sacrificing our identities, our traditions, or our rights.
Why?

Most of that seems pretty uniquely Canadian, except for the last bit.

Why?
Self-sufficient...for obvious reasons. We want sustainable communities. That means having more control over our resources, and more control over our own governance. Since our laws are rooted in our language, and our traditions, we need to maintain those ties to heal our communities.

The communities that have had the most success, and are the most healthy, are those with strong identities. Strip the identiy away from a people, and you strip their self-worth. We do not wish to be assimilated (no, resistance is not futile). Rather, we want to have one foot planted firmly in each our culture, and the wider Canadian culture. That can't happen, however, until our culture is no longer so threatened by poverty, abuse, and systemic racism.

And the things I mentioned aren't really all that different in the US, Australia, New Zealand etc... aside from some legal variations.

Self-sufficient...for obvious reasons. We want sustainable communities. That means having more control over our resources, and more control over our own governance. Since our laws are rooted in our language, and our traditions, we need to maintain those ties to heal our communities.

The communities that have had the most success, and are the most healthy, are those with strong identities. Strip the identiy away from a people, and you strip their self-worth. We do not wish to be assimilated (no, resistance is not futile). Rather, we want to have one foot planted firmly in each our culture, and the wider Canadian culture. That can't happen, however, until our culture is no longer so threatened by poverty, abuse, and systemic racism.
But don't you think, just for a moment, that if you stopped trying to preserve your stone-age culture things would be just a tad bit easier?
Yeah, keep some of your traditions and try to to teach your kids your language, but come on, some things, like freedom and equality, are more important than holding on to ancient traditions. The fact that a lot of it is rooted in spirituality doesn't make it any more tasteful.

Andy Scott is/was (retiring) the representative from one of the ridings I live in, and I've had the opportunity to speak with him on a variety of topics in person and informally on a number of different occasions. The program I took at university had segments studying public policies surrounding native rights here in New Brunswick, and some of the struggles including forestry, health care, social issues, and internal corruption (which has been a big problem in my province for the local bands).

As you may know Scott was the Minister for Indian Affairs, as it was called, for many years. He recounted tales of the department, and its no wonder the situation is so dire. Everybody who joins with the department, civil servant or political appointee, arrive there with the best of intentions (well most do at any rate) ready to change the world. That doesn't last too long. The black sheep department, it is really seen as an aberration by most politicians and other civil servants - they cannot get funding or money, staff, or any kind of support. A year in the same person who was ready and had great enthusiasm and ideas to tackle the injustices our government has perpetrated for years is worn down, jaded, cynical, and tired. Its heartbreak after heartbreak as you see situations that are so easy to avert go unchecked and your calls to change go unheard.

I just think thats a story you rarely hear about, and it highlights just how uphill this battle is for the native people of Canada. There have been localized successes, especially in the territories and isolated communities, but these have not carried on for those who are in the middle of everything.

In my experiences I've had the opportunity to join in on a great many wonderful traditions, like sweat lodges, various blessings (I admit terminology evades me, but Ive been blazed for the past 7 hours), and a great pow wow. I've had the chance to sit down in Elsipogtog and chat with elders, community leaders, local volunteers, and everyday individuals about hardships, issues, and their lives in general, both good and bad.

When I come home though, its a continual struggle. While my immediate family remains pretty understanding, partially through my insistence on many different issues, my extended family has very little concern or even, dare I say, patience for native communities in these areas. They keep regurgitating how lazy and self-destructive these people are, how corrupt their political leadership is, how wasteful they are with financial resources, and how they just want to live off the government and never do anything. They all seem to hold some kind of resentment about treaties and land rights, and scoff/laugh at any notion of land ownership. Economically unfeasible, and if they want it they can buy it like everybody else.

Yah. While there are occasional kernels of truth, like the fact that political leadership of the local bands has often had major issues with accountability and corruption, so much of the rest is just.. garbage. And the thing is most average Caucasian Canadians think like that. Its tough to argue with them, and of course most of these people are also pretty staunch conservatives and Christian to the core. When I've finally cornered them they just wave their hands dismissively and run on faith. Faith might have a place in some things, but most definitely not here.

I don't know where I am going with this... Solidarity mostly. You should know that my university program, which is the only interdisciplinary leadership program in Canada (brags), makes great effort to educate all of our students about these issues, and furthermore as a part of our worldviews and cultures segment we spend alot of time with the Mi'kmaq and Maliseet who live in New Brunswick. Oh, and don't think we are typical ivory tower detached observers who cast value judgments, and there is absolutely nothing like anthropology or sociology going on. Serious communication and very enlightening, and very personal.

Ok. Forgive me. I'm bakeder. Imma go smoke more now. Peace.

But don't you think, just for a moment, that if you stopped trying to preserve your stone-age culture things would be just a tad bit easier? Ha ha.

Yeah, keep some of your traditions and try to to teach your kids your language, but come on, some things, like freedom and equality, are more important than holding on to ancient traditions. The fact that a lot of it is rooted in spirituality doesn't make it any more tasteful.
I find it interesting that you both admit your ignorance of our cultures, and yet claim to know enough to dismiss them.

We have complex legal traditions, complex systems of governance, all of which are completely applicable to the 21st, or 31st, or 41st centuries. I've explained how many times before. You might take a look at the following links for examples, rather than have me repeat myself yet again. If you still have questions, I'll be happy to answer them when I can.
Nothing stone age about it (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12813451&postcount=134)
Aboriginal law (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12813955&postcount=139)
relevance of our traditions (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12815528&postcount=145)

Self-sufficient...for obvious reasons. We want sustainable communities. That means having more control over our resources, and more control over our own governance. Since our laws are rooted in our language, and our traditions, we need to maintain those ties to heal our communities.

The communities that have had the most success, and are the most healthy, are those with strong identities. Strip the identiy away from a people, and you strip their self-worth. We do not wish to be assimilated (no, resistance is not futile). Rather, we want to have one foot planted firmly in each our culture, and the wider Canadian culture. That can't happen, however, until our culture is no longer so threatened by poverty, abuse, and systemic racism.

And the things I mentioned aren't really all that different in the US, Australia, New Zealand etc... aside from some legal variations.

I mostly agree with what you are saying Neesika, but how would you propose to end poverty, I mean every year the crown gives out hundreds of millions of dollars to first nations, and it never seems to be enough. In Alberta, some tribes are very wealthy, through resource revenue, while others are very poor. Should the crown cut a deal with each tribe individually, or should we deal with groups of tribes? Should wealthy tribes pay some sort of transfer payments to tribes that have no oil?

Ha ha.

I find it interesting that you both admit your ignorance of our cultures, and yet claim to know enough to dismiss them.

We have complex legal traditions, complex systems of governance, all of which are completely applicable to the 21st, or 31st, or 41st centuries. I've explained how many times before. You might take a look at the following links for examples, rather than have me repeat myself yet again. If you still have questions, I'll be happy to answer them when I can.
Nothing stone age about it (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12813451&postcount=134)
Aboriginal law (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12813955&postcount=139)
relevance of our traditions (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12815528&postcount=145)

Meh. As pointless as dealing with anyone who views their particular group as somehow separate from the greater human race. As long as there are blatant and obvious differences between groups, those groups will be in conflict in some form or another. That is the tendency of the People.

In the end, aboriginals are no different than any other regionalist or nationalist group. That is not to say that your people's troubles are anything resembling their own fault, or that your particular lifestyle is any less savory than any other group of traditionalists. In fact, the communal understanding of property exhibited by many aboriginal groups is a small-scale model for a functional world-state, I think, but I am still at a loss to understand how an intelligent person can have pride in, or even strongly identify with a group they were merely born into.

Canadian aboriginals? WTF?

Canadian aboriginals? WTF?

Ignorant n00bs? WTF?

Aboriginals are Australian.

Aboriginals are Australian.

ab·o·rig·i·nal /ˌæbəˈrɪdʒənl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation [ab-uh-rij-uh-nl] Pronunciation Key
1. of, pertaining to, or typical of aborigines: aboriginal customs.
2. original or earliest known; native; indigenous: the aboriginal people of Tahiti. –noun
3. aborigine (def. 1).
4. (initial capital letter) aborigine (def. 2).
[Origin: 1660–70; aborigine + -al1]

Ah. But, the Australian Aboriginals are actually called Aboriginals. And they've been here for an estimated 60,000 years.

Ah. But, the Australian Aboriginals are actually called Aboriginals. And they've been here for an estimated 60,000 years.

God, you're fucking dense.

I assume they did not call themselves aboriginals. It sure does look like a derivative of an english word, ie original.

And if they did then their name now has a second meaning I suppose.

Oh, I know it's an English word. I'm just saying that the only race I knew of in the world called Aboriginals were indigenous Australians.

God, you're fucking dense.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j315/crashcow/NSG/robot_monkeys.jpg

Only the robot monkeys can help us now.

And man, do they look pissed.

But don't you think, just for a moment, that if you stopped trying to preserve your stone-age culture things would be just a tad bit easier?

this question is wrong on so many levels

It was a nice day. The usual noise and vibration from the train tracks that run under my kitchen window was stilled as the Via and cargo trains ground to a 24 hour halt.

The air seemed cleaner, the sky bluer and the birdsong clearer and braver. I haven't had such a peaceful day since 9/11 when they grounded all those planes at the airport a mile from the house. I approve.

this question is wrong on so many levels

And so is nearly everything you believe and value. So...

And so is nearly everything you believe and value. So...

yeah, but at least i'm prettier than you

yeah, but at least i'm prettier than you
That is not a feat of any difficulty.

Draneidan. In Canada, the term aboriginal refers to First Nations, Inuit and Metis. It's a catch-all phrase. It came into general parlance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms of 1982. So yeah. Canadian aboriginals.

but I am still at a loss to understand how an intelligent person can have pride in, or even strongly identify with a group they were merely born into.

So you're going to pull a Llewdor, and say, "I can't understand this, I'm just too logical", and not bother to debate anything I've presented you with.

Boy am I glad I saved myself some effort and just copied links to previous posts...since you don't seem to have any interest in the topic you were professing interest in.

So you're going to pull a Llewdor, and say, "I can't understand this, I'm just too logical", and not bother to debate anything I've presented you with.

Boy am I glad I saved myself some effort and just copied links to previous posts...since you don't seem to have any interest in the topic you were professing interest in.
I can't speak for Llewdor, but I would like to hear a legitimately intelligent explanation of pride in one's heritage. I can understand how an average person would pride ancestry, as it is what they are told to do all their lives.
However, I don't understand how anyone who thinks often and deeply could possibly retain the idea that their ancestry is anything to be ashamed or proud of.
Maybe I give you too much credit.

I can't speak for Llewdor, but I would like to hear a legitimately intelligent explanation of pride in one's heritage. I can understand how an average person would pride ancestry, as it is what they are told to do all their lives.
However, I don't understand how anyone who thinks often and deeply could possibly retain the idea that their ancestry is anything to be ashamed or proud of.
Maybe I give you too much credit.It seems to me that aboriginal customs are tied to their heritage, and so if they like the customs that they were brought up under, they would be extension like their heritage, as well.

I would say that this holds true for everyone, except the people who don't like the customs they were brought up with.

I mostly agree with what you are saying Neesika, but how would you propose to end poverty, I mean every year the crown gives out hundreds of millions of dollars to first nations, and it never seems to be enough. In Alberta, some tribes are very wealthy, through resource revenue, while others are very poor. Should the crown cut a deal with each tribe individually, or should we deal with groups of tribes? Should wealthy tribes pay some sort of transfer payments to tribes that have no oil?

I think this is what most Canadians hear about.

We hear about how the government pays out; how the various groups are receiving money, yet some of them still maintain that they are dreadfully impoverished. There are reports that agree with this, yet there is still money that is being handed out.

Is it that it's being disproportionately distributed?

Neesika, I will be honest, I think many Canadians don't want to hear about the "issues" because we see this as the aboriginal continually whining while being paid exorbitant amounts of money to supposedly fight poverty and right an injustice.

We would sympathise more but we keep seeing and hearing about how the groups are getting all this money yet there is none for the cities; we're strapped with more taxes because of downloaded costs, and we're constantly told there is no money for the cities.

I will not deny that poverty amongst other things is a cause for concern in native communities, but there is poverty even in the cities amongst non-natives and yet they get very little help as well. The government tell us it cannot afford to raise welfare rates; we're told that it is our responsibility to lift ourselves out and pay for everything.

I have a legitimate question and this isn't meant to be taken the wrong way, but if aboriginals want to be self-sufficient, why do only a select few control the pay out the governments give while bemoaning the impoverished situation of the thousands of aboriginal communities instead of redistributing the millions they have been paid?

Blockades seems excessive and more likely to contribute to a negative opinion of the aboriginals.

Just wondering why they think they deserve special treatment, is all. I mean "aboriginal issues," what the hell?


Why-- why do they think... "special treatment???" Like, for instance, being specially treated to having their culture and way of life destroyed, or specially treated to having their families ripped apart to send the children off to residential schools to be sexually abused and beaten for speaking their own mother tongues? Special treatment like that? Special treatment like being given particular mention as a group in our constitution in order to facilitate their 'protection,' which is essentially code for paternalistic oppression. Oh, sure, that's all "in the past," and they should "get over it." Except the state of things today-- complete with all the priviledge and advantages afforded to the white majority, all of the inherited riches and estates and education and all of it-- is built on the foundation of our predecessors' misdeeds. People talk about addressing history's 'scars,' but the truth is that the wounds are still open; what 'is' today is a perpetuation of what has been. I mean we have a law having to do with the 'spoils of criminal activity,' yet our politicians don't seem to recognise the same principle when it's applied on the scale of a country, so they drag their feet in dealing with aboriginals' disenfranchisement, they meander on settling 'land claims' when 'reclaimations' would be more accurate, given the petitioners they're trying to eke back a few scraps of the 2nd biggest country-- with one of the lowest population densities-- in the world, all of which used to be theirs until their lax immigration policies :-P It's seriously fucking disgraceful, it's a black mark on the country that I love, and while I'm too selfish to advocate that we fuck off back to the Old World and give the whole country back, I think a lot is still owed. Justice requires some kind of restitution, some sort of penance for the wrong that was done; if we're unwilling to give up any of the spoils of our culture's history of criminal activity, then we might as well dispense with calling ourselves 'just' and accept that the best we can hope for is to be forgiven instead of vindicated. Personally, I hate the idea of my government looking like some sleazy convict asking for lenient sentencing.

I have a legitimate question and this isn't meant to be taken the wrong way, but if aboriginals want to be self-sufficient, why do only a select few control the pay out the governments give while bemoaning the impoverished situation of the thousands of aboriginal communities instead of redistributing the millions they have been paid?


Because 'Whitey'-- including, maybe, my great-great-great-great-grandcousins or whoever-- and all of his descendants have provided a couple centuries of very powerful tutelage in corruption. Europeans greedily took North America from the people who were living here, and now we wonder how some of those 'awful Injuns' can be so greedy and on the take? That's like brutally beating a kid every day of his life and then wondering why he turns out as a violent adult.

Why-- why do they think... "special treatment???" Like, for instance, being specially treated to having their culture and way of life destroyed, or specially treated to having their families ripped apart to send the children off to residential schools to be sexually abused and beaten for speaking their own mother tongues?

...not to mention having to file down their antlers...


(sorry, Neese. Couldn't resist)

Because 'Whitey'-- including, maybe, my great-great-great-great-grandcousins or whoever-- and all of his descendants have provided a couple centuries of very powerful tutelage in corruption. Europeans greedily took North America from the people who were living here, and now we wonder how some of those 'awful Injuns' can be so greedy and on the take? That's like brutally beating a kid every day of his life and then wondering why he turns out as a violent adult.

I was asking why the leaders who have received the extensive cash settlement have failed to use it to lift their people out of poverty. It's an honest question. Why they have failed to use it to improve the lives of those who are still on the rocks.

I never said that they weren't suffering or hadn't suffered. I was focusing on the present in my question because the protests that are taking place are focusing on the present.

I was wondering why the few who have received money haven't shown goodwill to their fellow natives and shared it to help lift them all out of poverty in a sign of solidarity in an attempt to be, as Neesika says the natives would like to be, self-sufficient.

I was asking why the leaders who have received the extensive cash settlement have failed to use it to lift their people out of poverty. It's an honest question. Why they have failed to use it to improve the lives of those who are still on the rocks.

I never said that they weren't suffering or hadn't suffered. I was focusing on the present in my question because the protests that are taking place are focusing on the present.

I was wondering why the few who have received money haven't shown goodwill to their fellow natives and shared it to help lift them all out of poverty in a sign of solidarity in an attempt to be, as Neesika says the natives would like to be, self-sufficient.

how much money do you think it being given for aboriginal programs?

why do you think that after paying for education, healthcare and elderly programs there is enough left to lift everyone out of poverty?

how much money do you think it being given for aboriginal programs?

why do you think that after paying for education, healthcare and elderly programs there is enough left to lift everyone out of poverty?

Well, if they have the education programmes in place, that would help because with the knowledge, they can find their calling beyond the life they have known. With health, people can do more.

Where are the reports about how the money was spent? Honestly, why have these never been reported? Why do we never hear about how the money was spent? We only hear about the payouts, the protests, the negotiations, the accords, commission reports... everything but how the pay outs were spent.

Further, as Neesika has historically pointed out, not all natives live on reserves, many are in the cities, so they have access to the same level of healthcare and other programmes that the average Canadian does. This leaves a smaller percentage who don't live in the cities.

*snip*
Special treatment like being given particular mention as a group in our constitution in order to facilitate their 'protection,' which is essentially code for paternalistic oppression.
*snip*
People talk about addressing history's 'scars,' but the truth is that the wounds are still open; what 'is' today is a perpetuation of what has been.
*snip*
It's seriously fucking disgraceful, it's a black mark on the country that I love, and while I'm too selfish to advocate that we fuck off back to the Old World and give the whole country back, I think a lot is still owed.
*snip*
Personally, I hate the idea of my government looking like some sleazy convict asking for lenient sentencing.

Decent post. See how paragraphs help?

Though I'm an Australian, and only really partially aware of this issue in my own country's context, I agree.

I'm distraught at the damage being done to ancient cultures in New Guinea and Tibet and the Amazon. But when it comes down to it, the real test is what is happening in my own country. Here, it will cost me money and rights to make a settlement with the people whose land this was.

Yep, I can do it. I'm OK with giving up some of the prosperity Australians get from mining (well, did I ever dig a lump of ore out of the ground? No.) I'm OK with giving up National Parks and other Crown land to modern aborigines. I'm OK with native title challenging the concept of ownership of land (not much to lose there, I got nothing.)

Why? Because those ancient cultures had some principle, or lacked some negative principle, which allowed them to survive over tens of thousands of years without genociding each other and without destroying their own agrarian base. We need that knowledge, that principle ... we need it to survive.

Letting old cultures die out is a crime against all humanity. Like burning a library or smashing a sculpture ... we should respect what we don't understand, in the hope that we may one day understand it, and add it to our own history. Or at the very least, keep it in our own libraries.

Well, if they have the education programmes in place, that would help because with the knowledge, they can find their calling beyond the life they have known. With health, people can do more.

Where are the reports about how the money was spent? Honestly, why have these never been reported? Why do we never hear about how the money was spent? We only hear about the payouts, the protests, the negotiations, the accords, commission reports... everything but how the pay outs were spent.

Further, as Neesika has historically pointed out, not all natives live on reserves, many are in the cities, so they have access to the same level of healthcare and other programmes that the average Canadian does. This leaves a smaller percentage who don't live in the cities.

that didnt answer my question.

your previous posts seemed to indicate that you think that the various first nations are being given so much money that if it were fairly distributed no member would be poor.

what makes you think that?

and are you thinking that it is somehow THEIR fault that the news outlets dont report these things or that you cant be bothered to look it up somewhere?

You could lose the bolded bit. My own post won't be here long ... :)

I'm not telling you what to post. I just think that last bit is wildly distracting.
What was before it should give Kryoz serious thinking to answer. Don't make it easy by invoking the "my sources / your sources" thing, huh ? I love you both.

i have no sources.

im pointing out to her that its silly to blame any group for not getting the right kind of PR. its very hard to do. the first nations are not in charge of what gets printed in the paper or reported on TV. that she doesnt know how the money is spent doesnt mean that it is spent badly, that they supress the information or that it isnt freely available on some govt website somewhere.

I still say it is beyond your knowledge what Kryozerkia bases an opinion on. And only likely to make her (well, OK) defensive.

Wasn't your previous post a clear question? "Why do you think that?"

Trying to answer it yourself ("because of the stupid media you watch") isn't likely to get a well-thought-out answer, surely?

EDIT: This one is for the chop, too. I really should get private messagng happening :(

its true that im guessing that she is basing her info on popular opinion.

i suppose youre right but she didnt answer it the first time around so a bit more prodding seemed appropriate.

are you thinking that you are going to get suspended again for posts like this?

its true that im guessing that she is basing her info on popular opinion.

i suppose youre right but she didnt answer it the first time around so a bit more prodding seemed appropriate.

are you thinking that you are going to get suspended again for posts like this?

If I got suspended I didn't notice it. I suspended myself, and believe me it hurt.

Hey, you're both big girls. Do what you think is best, I'll stop interfering ...

If I got suspended I didn't notice it. I suspended myself, and believe me it hurt.

Hey, you're both big girls. Do what you think is best, I'll stop interfering ...

its best to not try to make private messaging work. i dont log into my nation every day so id get it weeks after the fact.

its a terrible messaging system really.

its best to not try to make private messaging work. i dont log into my nation every day so id get it weeks after the fact.

its a terrible messaging system really.

Which is why we can use ICQ, IM, YM, etc ... what I meant by private messaging. I'm stuck with telegrams and email, because I've never made any of those work. I'm a linux loser, I use it on principle but I can't be bothered making stuff work.

I think you and I basically agree, but I'll go look for something we can argue about ...

EDIT: I looked at the second half of the thread. You are questioning Kryozerkias statements, but getting nothing much in reply ... so I can see why you might raise the stakes a bit.

EDIT(2): I've read the whole thread. Kryozerkia put in serious contributions early and throughout the thread, and was studiously ignored by Neesika. Now it's Kryozerkia's turn to ignore you.

No big deal. We're just chatting here.

But I do sincerely believe it is in the self-interest of iPod-wearing, stock-owning mainstream progress types to protect our heritage: in the form of living history (cultures passed on by stories, songs and experience) and in the form of unspoiled ecosystems. We know so much, it is an easy step to think we know it all. We don't.

EDIT(2): I've read the whole thread. Kryozerkia put in serious contributions early and throughout the thread, and was studiously ignored by Neesika. Now it's Kryozerkia's turn to ignore you.
Uh, or maybe Neesika isn't online 24 fucking 7?

The reports on how the money is spent are out there. Good luck tracking them down though. Even getting a clear accounting of how the government is spending Band money 'on our behalf' can take years.

Which is why we can use ICQ, IM, YM, etc ... what I meant by private messaging. I'm stuck with telegrams and email, because I've never made any of those work. I'm a linux loser, I use it on principle but I can't be bothered making stuff work.

I think you and I basically agree, but I'll go look for something we can argue about ...

EDIT: I looked at the second half of the thread. You are questioning Kryozerkias statements, but getting nothing much in reply ... so I can see why you might raise the stakes a bit.

EDIT(2): I've read the whole thread. Kryozerkia put in serious contributions early and throughout the thread, and was studiously ignored by Neesika. Now it's Kryozerkia's turn to ignore you.

No big deal. We're just chatting here.

But I do sincerely believe it is in the self-interest of iPod-wearing, stock-owning mainstream progress types to protect our heritage: in the form of living history (cultures passed on by stories, songs and experience) and in the form of unspoiled ecosystems. We know so much, it is an easy step to think we know it all. We don't.

i dont mind her "ignoring" me since she wasnt talking to me to begin with. (not that i think she is ignoring me, there are many reason to not respond that have nothing to do with anger)

i think we have room in our various countries to let those whose culture started well before we came keep as much of their culture as they choose to keep. its not a threat to the majority culture and we would lose so much if it disappeared.

the indigenous peoples are in a different position than the descendants of immigrants are. they cant "go back where they came from" if they want to participate in their family's culture. this is it for them. they have to strike a balance between tradition and modernity.

Uh, or maybe Neesika isn't online 24 fucking 7?

The reports on how the money is spent are out there. Good luck tracking them down though. Even getting a clear accounting of how the government is spending Band money 'on our behalf' can take years.

there is an ongoing lawsuit in the US to get an accounting and payout of decades of gas and mineral fees collected by the govt on behalf of the various tribes.

the money is in the billions but its proven to be a huge chore to determine just how much is owed to whom due to years of bad collections and record keeping.

I think this is what most Canadians hear about.

We hear about how the government pays out; how the various groups are receiving money, yet some of them still maintain that they are dreadfully impoverished. There are reports that agree with this, yet there is still money that is being handed out.

Is it that it's being disproportionately distributed?

Neesika, I will be honest, I think many Canadians don't want to hear about the "issues" because we see this as the aboriginal continually whining while being paid exorbitant amounts of money to supposedly fight poverty and right an injustice.

We would sympathise more but we keep seeing and hearing about how the groups are getting all this money yet there is none for the cities; we're strapped with more taxes because of downloaded costs, and we're constantly told there is no money for the cities.

I will not deny that poverty amongst other things is a cause for concern in native communities, but there is poverty even in the cities amongst non-natives and yet they get very little help as well. The government tell us it cannot afford to raise welfare rates; we're told that it is our responsibility to lift ourselves out and pay for everything.

I have a legitimate question and this isn't meant to be taken the wrong way, but if aboriginals want to be self-sufficient, why do only a select few control the pay out the governments give while bemoaning the impoverished situation of the thousands of aboriginal communities instead of redistributing the millions they have been paid?

I'd love to hear some concrete examples from you so I could address them better, but I suspect you are making assumptions drawn from vague media reports, or complaints by pundits. No offence...but that's how this is coming across...vague.

So let me give YOU some specific examples. There is a Treaty 6 Education council. Now, education is federally funded, not provincially. It is also run by Indian Affairs, like pretty much any program we have. The Treaty 6 Education Council is an advisory board, and is responsible for overseeing all the band schools within that huge area. Take a look here (http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/dfrp-rbif/treaty-traite.asp) to see what Treaty 6 covers.

So, Treaty 6 schools are given a certain amount of funding. With that funding, they must pay for curriculum development, salaries, infrastructure, (also often living accommodation for staff on Reserve in order to attract people to remote communities) etc. Just like any school board must organise. On top of that, any early-childhood intervention programs done through the schools, like Headstart, or nutrition programs come out of those coffers.

Just like most public education throughout Canada, the band schools are seriously underfunded. We work with the money we get, and we also funnel band monies into improving as best we can, the educational opportunities for aboriginal students. Look at that as fund-raising akin to what parent groups will do to help their local cash-strapped schools.

This is not a situation where millions upon millions of dollars are going into certain pockets and benefiting no one. The amount of money going in is insufficient, and is spread out as thinly as possible in order to keep things struggling along. Do you hear about this? About the lengths our communities go to in order to keep the schools running? No.

So before I can deal with vague...I don't want to call them accusations, but frankly, that's what they are...of huge amounts of money coming to us, and being funneled away somehow, I'm going to need an idea of what you're talking about.

I also want you to consider the perception out there in terms of other 'have not' regions. Atlantic Canada for one. Unemployment levels are extremely high there, and if left to their own devices, without transfer payments, those living on the East Coast would be unable to sustain their social systems etc.

Are those people lazy? Stupid? Backwards, and all the various things aboriginal peoples are accused of? I'm not putting words into your mouth, I'm simply repeating the things I hear about us all the time. How many millions in transfer payments disappear into Atlantic Canada each year? Where are the cries for reports as to how that money is spent?

Just look at how much it costs to provide potable water to our communities. Even the Federal government has acknowledged that there simply isn't enough money to ensure safe drinking water to over 70 reserves throughout Canada...most of which have been living with boiled water advisories for over 5 years.

Imagine a small non-aboriginal town in the interior of BC living with a boiled water advisory for that amount of time. How long would that stand?

So...if you have some areas that you are concerned about in terms of funding, please list them, and I can start getting you some more information. I'm just not sure that the answers are going to actually address the feelings you, and many other Canadians have however.

there is an ongoing lawsuit in the US to get an accounting and payout of decades of gas and mineral fees collected by the govt on behalf of the various tribes.

the money is in the billions but its proven to be a huge chore to determine just how much is owed to whom due to years of bad collections and record keeping.

So even if we're not talking about what the government is collecting on our behalf...just what they are paying into say, aboriginal heath care in the various regions...getting those public records are difficult. It's no different really than walking up to Capital Health and saying, "I want a detailed list of your expenditures". Oh you'll get it....eventually....

So even if we're not talking about what the government is collecting on our behalf...just what they are paying into say, aboriginal heath care in the various regions...getting those public records are difficult. It's no different really than walking up to Capital Health and saying, "I want a detailed list of your expenditures". Oh you'll get it....eventually....

exactly

plus the idea that any group would get so much money that it would by itself lift them out of poverty is unbelievable on the face of it. if canadian first nations were getting that kind of money every canadian would be claiming membership.

or on a less ludicrous scale...

you cant fight accounting. if money is set to be spent on schools, you cant open a caribou farm with it. money must be spent as allocated, you cant spend it on other more lucrative programs.

I'd love to hear some concrete examples from you so I could address them better, but I suspect you are making assumptions drawn from vague media reports, or complaints by pundits. No offence...but that's how this is coming across...vague.

Yes, I get my info from them, but I'm asking for clarification because I know there is a bias in that information. I can only present the information as I know it, even if it is false.

I wasn't making assumptions, I was using the limited info I had to ask a question.

BTW - I don't begrudge that you didn't answer right away. I just had some thoughts floating around and wanted to write them down before they went away.

So let me give YOU some specific examples. There is a Treaty 6 Education council. Now, education is federally funded, not provincially. It is also run by Indian Affairs, like pretty much any program we have. The Treaty 6 Education Council is an advisory board, and is responsible for overseeing all the band schools within that huge area. Take a look here (http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/dfrp-rbif/treaty-traite.asp) to see what Treaty 6 covers.

So, Treaty 6 schools are given a certain amount of funding. With that funding, they must pay for curriculum development, salaries, infrastructure, (also often living accommodation for staff on Reserve in order to attract people to remote communities) etc. Just like any school board must organise. On top of that, any early-childhood intervention programs done through the schools, like Headstart, or nutrition programs come out of those coffers.

So... it's handled by the same run of the mill bumbling incompetent bureaucrats who excel at cranking out excuses faster than cheap sweat shop-made sneakers that fall apart in 2 uses? ;)

This is not a situation where millions upon millions of dollars are going into certain pockets and benefiting no one. The amount of money going in is insufficient, and is spread out as thinly as possible in order to keep things struggling along. Do you hear about this? About the lengths our communities go to in order to keep the schools running? No.

Yes you're right, we don't hear about this, and we should.

We hear about the rest of the system, as limited as the reporting is.

We should be hearing more, but the government has trouble airing out its dirty laundry. If we got more information about this, there would be more sympathy but when there is a significant lack of information, people become sceptical about the situation and take what we're told with a grain of salt.

So before I can deal with vague...I don't want to call them accusations, but frankly, that's what they are...of huge amounts of money coming to us, and being funneled away somehow, I'm going to need an idea of what you're talking about.

The general public is told about the deals. We hear about how the government is going to try and set things right.

We hear the aboriginals talk about their situation, but we don't find there is a lot of information so we don't have a lot to make our judgements on.

You ask questions with the information you have, not the information you wish you had.

Are those people lazy? Stupid? Backwards, and all the various things aboriginal peoples are accused of? I'm not putting words into your mouth, I'm simply repeating the things I hear about us all the time. How many millions in transfer payments disappear into Atlantic Canada each year? Where are the cries for reports as to how that money is spent?

I think that those accusations could be applied to many people in the region. But, like aboriginals, not to all because there are those who are decent folks, and then there are those simply aren't.

There are too many payments at the expense of the so-called "have provinces". The equalization payment scheme is a joke.

The reason I gather we don't hear the same outrage is because the payments are part of the "have not" province's budget and goes to the people. There are those who object but their voices aren't heard because there are voices that are louder.

Imagine a small non-aboriginal town in the interior of BC living with a boiled water advisory for that amount of time. How long would that stand?

Not long I imagine.

The media would get all over it and the government would react.

The media controls a lot in the nation even if we don't realise it.

So...if you have some areas that you are concerned about in terms of funding, please list them, and I can start getting you some more information. I'm just not sure that the answers are going to actually address the feelings you, and many other Canadians have however.

- Education
- Healthcare
- social programming

Alright, I'll get you some specific info on those areas, but as I'm off very soon for some Canada Day stuff, I'll have to get back to it. I'll be pulling data from mostly Treaty 6 area, which includes Edmonton. I'll also explain how some of the funding works for urban aboriginals, since some people have some misconceptions about that.

So...until then :D

Alright, I'll get you some specific info on those areas, but as I'm off very soon for some Canada Day stuff, I'll have to get back to it. I'll be pulling data from mostly Treaty 6 area, which includes Edmonton. I'll also explain how some of the funding works for urban aboriginals, since some people have some misconceptions about that.

So...until then :D

I think that's why there is resentment and a lack of understanding - no one could be arsed to explain this to us average Canadians who get our info from a n inept media and a government that doesn't know its ass from a hole in a doughnut.

Hey, check this out...it's about Australian aboriginals, but it's an excellent, simple fact sheet on aboriginal health funding.

http://www.eniar.org/news/pdfs/3_funding.pdf

This is scarily similar to our system, especially the part about there being no effective oversight for delivering health care to indigenous communities.

You know, having given this a good read...I'll keep looking for something specific to Canada, but I think you have an excellent summary of how healthcare is delivered and funded here. The stats are going to be different, but I'm a little surprised to see how similar the issues are.

The majority of our health programs are run by non-profit organisations. They apply for funding, and then administer various programs. The Aboriginal Health Initiative Project (http://www.vch.ca/ahip/) is one, Naho (http://www.naho.ca/english/) is another. AHIP uses their funding to run these programs (http://www.vch.ca/ahip/docs/AHIP_Projects_new.pdf). There are Metis specific programs, Inuit specific programs, programs for First Nations, urban aboriginals etc. You'll note that the Federal government is not itself providing these services. Finding out exactly how much they are paying out in grants to these programs is proving to be unbelievably difficult. The cost shifting that goes on between the feds and the provinces is also insane.

Hmmm, I had something else to add...ah yes, Harper has slashed the budgets for many aboriginal programs, including for health. A number of groups have gone under because of it.

Alright, alright, enough...more later.

Aus aboriginal health funding (http://www.eniar.org/news/pdfs/3_funding.pdf) was indeed a simple read, and informative.

ATSIC (ATSIS) does not have funding and does not have responsibility for Indigenous health. The Commonwealth Department of Health looks after Indigenous health through the Office of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Health (OATSIH). ATSIC is usually not able to put extra funds into health because most of its budget is 'tied' and must be spent as the Commonwealth Government directs.

I quote this passage because ATSIC was abolished by the current Federal government in 2005. It was directly elected by registered aboriginal people. The government found it to be spending its grants corruptly (at the same time the chairman was accused of involvement in gang rapes) and abolished it. Despite talk at the time of reconstituting it as ATSIS, no organization with spending powers represents aboriginal people, so far as I know. Spending is directly ('temporarily') in the hands of the federal minister Mal Brough.

Just so no-one gets the rosy idea that aboriginal people here have any say above the local level in how federal money specifically targeted at them is spent ...