NationStates Jolt Archive

Police: Diabetic Man Missing After Being Kicked Off Train

POSTED: 7:24 am PDT June 28, 2007
UPDATED: 11:06 am PDT June 28, 2007

PHOENIX -- A 65-year-old St. Louis man is missing after Amtrak personnel, mistaking his diabetic shock for drunk and disorderly behavior, kicked him off a train in the middle of a national forest, according to police in Williams, Ariz.

Police said Roosevelt Sims was headed to Los Angeles but was asked to leave the train shortly before 10 p.m. Sunday at a railroad crossing five miles outside Williams.

"He was let off in the middle of a national forest, which is about 800,000 acres of beautiful pine trees," Lt. Mike Graham said.

Police said there is no train station or running water at the crossing, which is about two miles from the nearest road, at an elevation of about 8,000 feet.

Amtrak personnel told police dispatchers that Sims was drunk and unruly.

The Sims family said Sims is diabetic and was going into shock.

Sims' brother, Brian Mason, said his family tried to call Sims on his cell phone that night, but Sims was incoherent.

When officers arrived at the crossing, police said, Sims ran into the woods, leaving his luggage and medication behind.

Cell phone records show that Sims' phone was last used in Litchfield Park, Ariz., 180 miles from Williams.

Williams police told CBS 5 that Amtrak has used the abandoned crossing as a drop-off site in the past. Graham said that whether drunk or not, no one should be dropped off there.

"You don't put anyone off in an area like that," Graham said.

Amtrak said the company is looking into the matter.

"I just want to find him," Mason said. "I'm not mad at anybody."

"I want to find a way to make sure he's OK," Mason added.

"Our thoughts and prayers are that there's no way he's out there in those woods," Graham said.
Link (http://www.kpho.com/news/13586605/detail.html?1)

After reading this story, I am going to boycott Amtrak and not give them anymore of my business, I mean comon even if the guy was drunk, they should've at least drop him off at the next station into police custody, not put him out in the middle of NO WHERE!

This is just another reason why Amtrak should be made into a private company. Amtrak is made of fail.

Amtrak = PHAIL

This is just another reason why Amtrak should be made into a private company. Amtrak is made of fail.

While I agree that the situation is inexcusable, I fail to see how privatizing Amtrak would make the slightest bit of difference in this regard.

Privately owned companies are just as likely to hire such idiots...perhaps even more so.

Link (http://www.kpho.com/news/13586605/detail.html?1)

After reading this story, I am going to boycott Amtrak and not give them anymore of my business, I mean comon even if the guy was drunk, they should've at least drop him off at the next station into police custody, not put him out in the middle of NO WHERE!

This is just another reason why Amtrak should be made into a private company. Amtrak is made of fail.

Oh Jesus effing Christ--if you boycott every company whose employees makes a boneheaded move once in a while, you'll never buy a damn thing. The employees who are responsible ought to be reprimanded at the very least, and perhaps fired, but you're making a retarded leap to blame Amtrak as a whole for this.

Amtrak's service is generally top notch, and they'd be even better if Congress didn't have it out for them every time their funding comes up.

Privately owned companies are just as likely to hire such idiots...perhaps even more so.

And lose their customers to competitors who hire less idiotic people?

Oh Jesus effing Christ--if you boycott every company whose employees makes a boneheaded move once in a while, you'll never buy a damn thing. The employees who are responsible ought to be reprimanded at the very least, and perhaps fired, but you're making a retarded leap to blame Amtrak as a whole for this.

Amtrak's service is generally top notch, and they'd be even better if Congress didn't have it out for them every time their funding comes up.

The problem though is that Amtrak isn't accountable to anyone, since it's a state run business. The state will fund it whether or not it provides the best service world wide, or it's a ghetto train. If Amtrak was a private business, then it would be accountable to the market, and when people see how Amtrak takes care of it's passenger, it'll think twice before riding with them. Let me put it in bullet point.


Amtrak mistreats it's passenger
Word gets out about the mistreatment
People opt for other means of travel beside Amtrak
Amtrak loses money
Amtrak either rectify the problem or go out of business


That is how the system would've work if Amtrak was a private company.

And lose their customers to competitors who hire less idiotic people?

If the airline industry is any indication, they just go into bankruptcy and come out again a year later with the same idiots in charge.

"'He was let off in the middle of a national forest, which is about 800,000 acres of beautiful pine trees,' Lt. Mike Graham said."

well at least it wasn't ugly oaks

If the airline industry is any indication, they just go into bankruptcy and come out again a year later with the same idiots in charge.

The only reason that happens is that the government bails them out. If the government would stop bailing them out and let some airliners go out of business, then maybe we'd see some changes, and this is coming from someone who loves aviation.

Who the hell rides Amtrak anyway?

The problem though is that Amtrak isn't accountable to anyone, since it's a state run business. The state will fund it whether or not it provides the best service world wide, or it's a ghetto train. If Amtrak was a private business, then it would be accountable to the market, and when people see how Amtrak takes care of it's passenger, it'll think twice before riding with them. Let me put it in bullet point.


Amtrak mistreats it's passenger
Word gets out about the mistreatment
People opt for other means of travel beside Amtrak
Amtrak loses money
Amtrak either rectify the problem or go out of business


That is how the system would've work if Amtrak was a private company.
Except that Amtrak provides stellar service the vast majority of the time, even though they're at a distinct handicap because they're competing with planes and cars.

You're picking out one bad thing that happened and trying to paint the entire company as bad--well, I'm calling bullshit on that, because my experiences with them have been topnotch. When my train out of Denver was delayed last Christmas because of snow on the tracks, they not only fed us on the train for nothing, they put us up in a nice hotel in Chicago and gave us money for meals the next day when we could catch the next train to New Orleans. No airline would do that, no matter the delay--if your flight is cancelled, you're fucked, so sorry, and we'll get you out when we can, and there's a nice little corner of the airport for you to sleep in.

But none of that matters in this discussion, because you're making a stupid leap--one bad act by one employee or group of employees doesn't make the company as a whole bad, and to boycott them over it is stupid. Further, to make the claim that the sole reason Amtrak did this one bad act was because they aren't private is beyond ridiculous--it happened because the people on that one train at that one time made a bad judgment, and they should pay for it.

This is a rather myopic perspective. Regardless of whether or not an industry is subsidized, that industry still has managers, and managers still get fired when shit goes bad.

And one thing that gets managers fired is when their customers sue the ever loving shit out of them. And due to a lovely doctrine we call respondeat superior, when someone in a company screws up, the company gets hurt.

And when a company gets hurt, subsidizes or not, people get fired. And self interest is one of the most powerful motivators there is.

This is a rather myopic perspective. Regardless of whether or not an industry is subsidized, that industry still has managers, and managers still get fired when shit goes bad.

And one thing that gets managers fired is when their customers sue the ever loving shit out of them. And due to a lovely doctrine we call respondeat superior, when someone in a company screws up, the company gets hurt.

And when a company gets hurt, subsidizes or not, people get fired. And self interest is one of the most powerful motivators there is.

Agree.

wtf is this, attack nationalized industry week or something?

And when a company gets hurt, subsidizes or not, people get fired. And self interest is one of the most powerful motivators there is.

You make the mistake of assuming that most people are capable of thinking that far ahead, especially that those typically hired by Amtrak are capable of thinking that far ahead.
The ownership of a company has no effect on the idiocy perpetuated by employees who don't give a shit about their employer.

wtf is this, attack nationalized industry week or something?

I always attack nationalized industry.

This is Amtrak after all. The one train company in the world that can only get better if you put the Addams Family in charge.

wtf is this, attack nationalized industry week or something?

Yes! And on Saturday, we're handing out free T-shirts. :)

You make the mistake of assuming that most people are capable of thinking that far ahead, especially that those typically hired by Amtrak are capable of thinking that far ahead.
The ownership of a company has no effect on the idiocy perpetuated by employees who don't give a shit about their employer.

except the whole premise of wilgrove's argument is that privatization would prevent this from occuring because the owners/managers of private companies stop it from occuring for fear of boycots and reduction in customers which would hurt the business. Likewise, subsidized companies don't have to worry about going out of business, and thus, no incentive to prevent this from happening.

Which is just not true because shit like this gets people sued.

And let's tell a story. A few years ago, some guy in upper management in McDonalds got a memo that said that the coffee McDonald's was serving was dangerously hot, and someday somebody was going to get seriously burned. And this fellow in upper management chose to ignore that memo.

Do you think that fellow is still employed by McDonald's?

The only reason that happens is that the government bails them out. If the government would stop bailing them out and let some airliners go out of business, then maybe we'd see some changes, and this is coming from someone who loves aviation.
Or all the others go out of business leading to a single company that can give whatever service it wants. And charge 9000$ to fly to the next city if they wanted to.

You silly Lazi-fare Capitalists, you think that the market is the solution for everything.

I always attack nationalized industry.
It's because you'd rather have people starving in the streets than have a government. Because the 'market' is the universal problem solver.

You guys are just as deluded as the communists. Except on the other side of the equation.

Or all the others go out of business leading to a single company that can give whatever service it wants. And charge 9000$ to fly to the next city if they wanted to.

And will soon face competition from new companies, or lose lots and lots of customers, because only someone very rich or very stupid would spend such an absurd amount.[/QUOTE]

Amtrak is indeed made of phail.

I'm no fan of nationalization, however I don't see this one incident as a real argument for privatization. The real reasons are economic.

And will soon face competition from new companies, or lose lots and lots of customers, because only someone very rich or very stupid would spend such an absurd amount.

And if it was oh so very simple then we wouldn't need a little thing called the Sherman Antitrust Act, would we?

You guys are just as deluded as the communists. Except on the other side of the equation.
My sentiments exactly.

And if it was oh so very simple then we wouldn't need a little thing called the Sherman Antitrust Act, would we?

Read Antitrust: The Case for Repeal and The Myths of Antitrust: Economic Theory and Legal Cases, both by Dominick T. Armentano.

Read Antitrust: The Case for Repeal and The Myths of Antitrust: Economic Theory and Legal Cases, both by Dominick T. Armentano.

I've read the histories of the period prior to Sherman, and as someone who's lived his entire life on the short end of the economic stick, I have to say I much prefer the current system to that one, thanks all the same. I'm much more into histories of the labor movement, that sort of thing.

Read Antitrust: The Case for Repeal and The Myths of Antitrust: Economic Theory and Legal Cases, both by Dominick T. Armentano.

I have a bachelors in international political economies and a law degree with a specialty in anti-trust litigation and corporate transactions.

No thanks.

Oh Jesus effing Christ--if you boycott every company whose employees makes a boneheaded move once in a while, you'll never buy a damn thing. The employees who are responsible ought to be reprimanded at the very least, and perhaps fired, but you're making a retarded leap to blame Amtrak as a whole for this.

Amtrak's service is generally top notch, and they'd be even better if Congress didn't have it out for them every time their funding comes up.
AmTrak has never turned a profit. Not once. Ever. As a business it fails. As a waste of money it rulezorz!

AmTrak.
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/0/02/DONOTWANT_doggy2.jpg

I have a bachelors in international political economies and a law degree with a specialty in anti-trust litigation and corporate transactions.

No thanks.

http://www.mises.org/books/antitrust.pdf

Here it is, free of charge. I would recommend giving it a look.

AmTrak has never turned a profit. Not once. Ever. As a business it fails. As a waste of money it rulezorz!

Passenger rail never turns a profit on its own anywhere--it's always heavily subsidized by the government in one form or another, generally in the form of infrastructure at the very least. So what's your point? Fuck--airlines are heavily subsidized as well and tend to lose money, and if car companies had been forced to pay for road construction, the industry would have died aborning. I fail to see how rail is any different in these respects.

Edit: And what did your response have to do with the substance of the post you originally replied to in the first place?

I'm much more into histories of the labor movement, that sort of thing.

I'm into both.

Anything on the subject you'd recommend?

http://www.mises.org/books/antitrust.pdf

Here it is, free of charge. I would recommend giving it a look.

from an institution named after one of the most completely out of touch arch-libertarian economists in the last 100 years?

No thanks. I've heard all these arguments before. They're all crap.
As someone who has worked on multiple anti-trust cases on both sides of the aisle, I'll trust my own background over a crackpot right wing economic group with a bias so big you could drive a truck through it.

They're all crap.

Prove it.

Passenger rail never turns a profit on its own anywhere--it's always heavily subsidized by the government in one form or another, generally in the form of infrastructure at the very least. So what's your point? Fuck--airlines are heavily subsidized as well and tend to lose money, and if car companies had been forced to pay for road construction, the industry would have died aborning. I fail to see how rail is any different in these respects.

Edit: And what did your response have to do with the substance of the post you originally replied to in the first place?
Congress oughtta have it out for AmTrak. And all other corporate welfare. If a predator is dying out because a new and better predator has shown up its called evolution. If a business starts bleeding money because new and better businesses have shown up they can run to the government and demand a subsidy.

For those of you who don't know, a subsidy is when the government takes money from you in the form of taxes and gives it to obsolete or unprofitable ventures. In other words it's when the government completely wastes your taxes away on something that has negative to no returns.

I too have been on an AmTrak train before. My experience sucked balls. I haven't been on any other trains so I can't compare it to anything but that isn't the point. The staff as a whole was rude and the food was terrible and late. I had better service and a better experience on my flight to Vegas.

Prove it.

Wow.

You win this thread. Really.

Amazing.

"Here, read this!"

"No thanks, it's crap."

"Prove it."

"Um...no. How about you actually make an argument first?"

"Oh. Is that how it works?"

"Yeah. It kind of is."

snip

In other words, you have nothing intelligent to say. He said the "arguments are crap," without elaborating. The burden of proof is on him. Now run off and let the adults talk.

In other words, you have nothing intelligent to say. He said the "arguments are crap," without elaborating. The burden of proof is on him. Now run off and let the adults talk.

And you popped off, got a source from teh interwebs and said, 'lookey here! I've got an argument'.

Made. Of. Fail.

Prove it.

what the fuck? Seriously, you show up with some theory the premise of which has been discredited by basic every respected modern economist, and is backed by a crackpot organization that has the stated goal of

to undermine statism in all its forms. Its methodology is based on praxeology, a description of individual human action which seeks to avoid errors in scientific behavioral observation that could be induced by human self-consciousness and complexity. The Institute's economic theories depict any government intervention as destructive, whether through welfare, inflation, taxation, regulation, or war.

and then YOU expect ME to take my time and explain to you why monopolies are a bad thing?

That your whole defense to your entire position is a "freely distributed" treaties like some fucking LaRoche crap, and the poor debator's mantra of "prove me wrong or I'm right automatically!"

I don't have to prove anything to you. I think it's crap. I'm free to believe it's crap. You think you're right, you want me to read your crap little booklet? YOU prove it.

Seriously, you show up with some theory the premise of which has been discredited by basic every respected modern economist

Except that it hasn't.

and then YOU expect ME to take my time and explain to you why monopolies are a bad thing?

No, I asked you to explain why antitrust laws are a good thing.

I don't have to prove anything to you.

But you do.

I think it's crap. I'm free to believe it's crap.

And free to be wrong.

crap little booklet

I love how leftists automatically dismiss every source without even reading it, bitching about "bias," yet the sources they use are just as biased.

And you popped off, got a source from teh interwebs and said, 'lookey here! I've got an argument'.

Made. Of. Fail.

Except that I said no such thing.

I don't have an argument, Armamento does. Why bother wasting time coming up with an argument on someone who will just dismiss it offhand without even going over it?

I have better things to do than waste time on people whose lack of knowledge of economics rivals that of my dogs.

Originally Posted by Neo Art
You guys are just as deluded as the communists. Except on the other side of the equation.

My sentiments exactly. Hey that was MY post, not Neo Art's. Timewarp?

The problem though is that Amtrak isn't accountable to anyone, since it's a state run business. The state will fund it whether or not it provides the best service world wide, or it's a ghetto train. If Amtrak was a private business, then it would be accountable to the market, and when people see how Amtrak takes care of it's passenger, it'll think twice before riding with them. Let me put it in bullet point.


Amtrak mistreats it's passenger
Word gets out about the mistreatment
People opt for other means of travel beside Amtrak
Amtrak loses money
Amtrak either rectify the problem or go out of business


That is how the system would've work if Amtrak was a private company.
Not true. Amtrak is highly accountable for the basic reason that it has to get it's subsidy in the first place, if there is a problem people look at the subsidy and question whether it is worth it, it's the reason the for the loss of one of it's Acela routes. The problem is is that the nature of competition with, for example, cars is unfair as whilst Amtrak has to pay it's employees, its running costs, maintenance etc, road costs are covered by the government.
AmTrak has never turned a profit. Not once. Ever. As a business it fails. As a waste of money it rulezorz!

AmTrak.
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/0/02/DONOTWANT_doggy2.jpg

Passenger rail networks never make a profit. The last one to make any type of money was INTERCITY in the UK, part of British Rail, which did make a profit but was subsequently sold off to private companies and now needs massive amounts of public subsidy to operate. Well done private businesses, can't even run a service profitably that the State sector could.

Except that I said no such thing.

I don't have an argument,You've at least got that right.

Armamento does. Why bother wasting time coming up with an argument on someone who will just dismiss it offhand without even going over it? Hey, I've got a great idea! From now on, we all just post other people's ideas, and yell 'FTW' loudly when no one feels like reading those ideas and refuting them! In fact, why don't we just program our computers to debate for us!

Fucking lazy. Seriously.

I have better things to do than waste time on people whose lack of knowledge of economics rivals that of my dogs.
Yeah....better things to do. Like go 'hey guys, here are someone else's ideas! Aren't I cool?'

I'm uber-impressed.

Hey that was MY post, not Neo Art's.
I apologize. Profusely.

ok you want proof though? Fine.

Answer me a few questions. Primarily it is this. Once you factor in the marginal cost and marginal variable costs associated with producing additional units, if the profit maximizing point for any particular firm is to the right of supply/demand intersection (IE, at a point where there is less supply at a greater price) a firm will seek to move the cost per unit towards that right most point, wherever such a profit maximizing point lies.

Because the point is now shifted to the right of the supply/demand intersection, you have less units of widgets entering the economy at large, and as such less people buying, which creates an overall system of economic waste. And any firm seeking to maximize personal profits wont care about waste.

So likewise if firms are free to conspire and set prices they will set to the right of this supply/demand intersection. Additionally, if this is not hte case, the largest firm can set to the left of the intersection forcing other firms out of business.

So my question for you is threefold, please answer any one of these:

1) do you think companies will not conspire to price fix at profit maximizing positions which create economic waste

or

2) do you think that barries to entry are non existant and firms are free to enter and leave a market as they wish (IE do you think fixed costs and large initial marginal variable costs do not exist)

or

3) do you think economic waste is a good thing

Because if you can't demonstrate why firms will not price fix, or why firms are free to enter and leave markets, or why waste is a good thing, the idea that monopoly laws are not necessary to a functioning economy is pure crap.

Hey, I've got a great idea! From now on, we all just post other people's ideas, and yell 'FTW' loudly when no one feels like reading those ideas and refuting them! In fact, why don't we just program our computers to debate for us!

Fucking lazy. Seriously.

No, because it's a waste of time. It's like trying to teach chess to a goldfish - a fool's errand. If others want to make the effort, I'm not stopping them.

Yeah....better things to do. Like go 'hey guys, here are someone else's ideas! Aren't I cool?'

Except that I said no such thing.

I'm uber-impressed.

I couldn't give less of a shit.

1) do you think companies will not conspire to price fix at profit maximizing positions which create economic waste

They might. But there is nothing stopping others from competing against them.

2) do you think that barries to entry are non existant and firms are free to enter and leave a market as they wish (IE do you think fixed costs and large initial marginal variable costs do not exist)

Yes.

3) do you think economic waste is a good thing

No.

Because if you can't demonstrate why firms will not price fix, or why firms are free to enter and leave markets, or why waste is a good thing, the idea that monopoly laws are not necessary to a functioning economy is pure crap.

It has been demonstrated. Or don't you know the real purpose behind 'antitrust' laws?

Yes.

Prove.

It.

of course, a lot of economists would be interested in your theory of "fixed costs to entry don't exist"

It has been demonstrated.

Suuuuuure it has. You wont have ANY problem proving it then, will you?

Or don't you know the real purpose behind 'antitrust' laws?

oh this is gonna be goooood.

No, because it's a waste of time. It's like trying to teach chess to a goldfish - a fool's errand. If others want to make the effort, I'm not stopping them. So your purpose here is to.......

Maybe you could fill in the blank, since you aren't here with an opinion or position of your own. Me, I'm here just enjoying the show.


Except that I said no such thing. It was implicit in your 'prove this other guy wrong or I win'. Oh sorry, I mean 'prove it'.



I don't know shit.
Fixed.

And will soon face competition from new companies, or lose lots and lots of customers, because only someone very rich or very stupid would spend such an absurd amount.
And where would these companies land hmm??? The airports will be all owned by one group as well. 9000 is stepping it some but if you eliminate compitition, IT'S not just going to magically reappear out of nowhere.

Who hear can imagine a new Airline company appearing in the modern world?

You know what happens to upstart companies that become a threat? They get crushed, Violently.

Like I said Deluded.



No, I asked you to explain why antitrust laws are a good thing.
It prevents monopolies.

Congress oughtta have it out for AmTrak. And all other corporate welfare. If a predator is dying out because a new and better predator has shown up its called evolution. If a business starts bleeding money because new and better businesses have shown up they can run to the government and demand a subsidy. Of course this leads to a single dominant Predator, and however often in nature does a predator get knocked off it's domaince?
Never. Hence a monopoly. Failure. *Declares Victory*

Or don't you know the real purpose behind 'antitrust' laws?

IT'S A CONSPIRICY!!!!
*Dons Tinfoil Hat*

The fact is, anyone who is trying to have a discussion about economics while at the same time says that fixed cost barriers to entry don't exist has well entered the land of mythical nonsense.

Where do all these factories come from I wonder? The magical factory faerie? Are you able to go and set up a car manufacturing firm? no? Gee, then I guess there's a barrier to your entry then, isn't there?

Dr. Doolittle is too busy hanging out with his goldfish and dogs.

Link (http://www.kpho.com/news/13586605/detail.html?1)

After reading this story, I am going to boycott Amtrak and not give them anymore of my business, I mean comon even if the guy was drunk, they should've at least drop him off at the next station into police custody, not put him out in the middle of NO WHERE!

This is just another reason why Amtrak should be made into a private company. Amtrak is made of fail.
When private companies do crap like this, do you argue for nationalisation, out of interest?

http://www.kpho.com/news/13586605/detail.html?1

Here in the US, the train service is run by the government under the artificial company, Amtrak. Here's an example of their idiocy.

I've ridden a variety of European trains as well as US Amtrak in my life, and I can say that even the trains in Russia are far cleaner and better run than any Amtrak train in the US.

Here's a taste of the kind of service you get here.

A 65-year-old St. Louis man is missing after Amtrak personnel, mistaking his diabetic shock for drunk and disorderly behavior, kicked him off a train in the middle of a national forest, according to police in Williams, Ariz.

Police said Roosevelt Sims was headed to Los Angeles but was asked to leave the train shortly before 10 p.m. Sunday at a railroad crossing five miles outside Williams.

"He was let off in the middle of a national forest, which is about 800,000 acres of beautiful pine trees," Lt. Mike Graham said.

Police said there is no train station or running water at the crossing, which is about two miles from the nearest road, at an elevation of about 8,000 feet.

Amtrak personnel told police dispatchers that Sims was drunk and unruly.

The Sims family said Sims is diabetic and was going into shock.

Too late. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=531465)

Even if he were drunk and unruly, what right does that give them to abandon him in the middle of nowhere?!

Note to self: never ride Amtrak. Damn...

I wouldn't say this is so much an issue with them misinterpreting hypoglycaemia as a poor choice of drop off location

Even if he were drunk and unruly, what right does that give them to abandon him in the middle of nowhere?!

Exactly what I was thinking. Complete and total idiocy on the part of the employees responsible.

Even if he were drunk and unruly, what right does that give them to abandon him in the middle of nowhere?!

Exactly. I fail to see how him being in a diabetic shock really makes these guys look any more like dicks than they already do for kicking some one out in the middle of fucking nowhere.

Note to self: never ride Amtrak. Damn...

I like Amtrak. :( Well, except this one time, when the train I was on derailed into a swamp. Other than that, Amtrak's fun.

Unless it's a matter of company policy, why do you blame the company?

I had the pleasure of getting a train in the wrong direction, and getting kicked off in the middle of a forest, simply because my valid ticket was valid to the train I thought I was on.

And I've had the pleasure of getting busted for not having a ticket, but being allowed to buy a ticket without getting fined, and obviously being allowed to continue unimpeded to my destination.

- on two different lines, run and owned by the same gov't company.

The former was no fun, by the way. I eventually found the home of some forest hermit type, who gave me a meal, a bed and a ride to the nearest village in the morning.

They just stop the train and kick you off in the middle of nowhere over there? As opposed to waiting until the next station, calling the cops and fining the pants off you? Funny old country, America.

They just stop the train and kick you off in the middle of nowhere over there? As opposed to waiting until the next station, calling the cops and fining the pants off you? Funny old country, America.

I was starting to think just the same thing.

They just stop the train and kick you off in the middle of nowhere over there? As opposed to waiting until the next station, calling the cops and fining the pants off you? Funny old country, America.

I've seen just the opposite, though I guess I can't say that it never happens, given the couple of examples. In my experience, though, Amtrak is pretty courteous. In fact, one time, at the Albuquerque checkpoint, when I was watching police come and remove a dope-smuggling woman, I remember the conductor and stewardesses were giving the lady's kids cookies and apple juice and stuff. They're not all bad people. :p

This is quite terrible, but hardly an argument for the privatisation of Amtrak.

"He was let off in the middle of a national forest, which is about 800,000 acres of beautiful pine trees"
...with a dead body somewhere between them.

Who the hell rides Amtrak anyway?

I do. Generally, it's fine -- better than airliners most of the time.

Yes! And on Saturday, we're handing out free T-shirts. :)

Pfff, on Promote Nationalised Industry week we hand out free shirts and socks on the Friday ;) .

I do. Generally, it's fine -- better than airliners most of the time.

I think so too. And you tend to meet interesting people. Maybe the airlines need an observation car. :p

Link (http://www.kpho.com/news/13586605/detail.html?1)

After reading this story, I am going to boycott Amtrak and not give them anymore of my business, I mean comon even if the guy was drunk, they should've at least drop him off at the next station into police custody, not put him out in the middle of NO WHERE!

This is just another reason why Amtrak should be made into a private company. Amtrak is made of fail.
Oh my.

That is deeply awful. Now I'm worried, because my boyfriend and I are taking a trip by train in a couple of weeks, and I think we're taking an Amtrak train. After reading this, I don't particularly feel like giving those people any of my money.

I think so too. And you tend to meet interesting people. Maybe the airlines need an observation car. :p

I quite like the electrical outlets, tables, and being able to use my laptop along with the chatting with folks -- including the staff.

I think so too. And you tend to meet interesting people. Maybe the airlines need an observation car. :p
They do - I think it is called the first class lounge.

They do - I think it is called the first class lounge.

Interesting - I've never been up there, myself. :p Except one time, back around '93, when the passenger next to me had some kind of seizure. I got bumped to first class on United, a 737. Didn't see anything like that on the 737, though. :(

http://www.mises.org/books/antitrust.pdf

Here it is, free of charge. I would recommend giving it a look.

The Austrian School doesn't use the the scientific method in an attempt to prove their claims. That in itself is something to worry about when considering works using that economic school.

Oh Jesus effing Christ--if you boycott every company whose employees makes a boneheaded move once in a while, you'll never buy a damn thing. The employees who are responsible ought to be reprimanded at the very least, and perhaps fired, but you're making a retarded leap to blame Amtrak as a whole for this.

Amtrak's service is generally top notch, and they'd be even better if Congress didn't have it out for them every time their funding comes up.

It's not once in a while though is it?

Even if he had been drunk (and by the way, someone going into a diabetic shock can look drunk - learned it on a First Aid course), you don't put them off in the middle of nowhere. I hope he's still alive.

It's not once in a while though is it?

Even if he had been drunk (and by the way, someone going into a diabetic shock can look drunk - learned it on a First Aid course), you don't put them off in the middle of nowhere. I hope he's still alive.

Unless he managed to find a bottle of lucozade out there I think its pretty likely he's dead

If the Nazz thinks that Amtrak is a well run rail system, he needs his head examined.

That, and a trip to Germany to see how a rail system should be run.

Anything less is just crap. Amtrak is crap from one end to the other, when compared to most European rail systems.

It's not once in a while though is it?

Even if he had been drunk (and by the way, someone going into a diabetic shock can look drunk - learned it on a First Aid course), you don't put them off in the middle of nowhere. I hope he's still alive.
I think the chance of him being alive is about that of a spaceship making a good deep water submarine. Points for reference.

Link (http://www.kpho.com/news/13586605/detail.html?1)

After reading this story, I am going to boycott Amtrak and not give them anymore of my business, I mean comon even if the guy was drunk, they should've at least drop him off at the next station into police custody, not put him out in the middle of NO WHERE!

This is just another reason why Amtrak should be made into a private company. Amtrak is made of fail.

That sucks. As a certified train geek from the age of five, I can say you're stating the obvious.

I think the chance of him being alive is about that of a spaceship making a good deep water submarine. Points for reference.

http://www.emaginacion.com.ar/cym/images/futurama.jpg

:p

Oh Jesus effing Christ--if you boycott every company whose employees makes a boneheaded move once in a while, you'll never buy a damn thing. The employees who are responsible ought to be reprimanded at the very least, and perhaps fired, but you're making a retarded leap to blame Amtrak as a whole for this.

Amtrak's service is generally top notch, and they'd be even better if Congress didn't have it out for them every time their funding comes up.

I agree with Nazz.

Now brace yourselves, the world is about to come to an end.

;)

I agree with Nazz.

Now brace yourselves, the world is about to come to an end.

;)

Compared to most European train service (especially German), Amtrak train service sucks.

It's worse than the train service in India, as far as I'm concerned.

Compared to most European train service (especially German), Amtrak train service sucks.

It's worse than the train service in India, as far as I'm concerned.

Amtrak gets 0.1% of the national budget, compared with Germany (which is around 20%). And they can't spend what little money they can get well. The railways were better in the hands of private companies and the private freight railways are doing really good business. So, the only way out is privatization.

Amtrak gets 0.1% of the national budget, compared with Germany (which is around 20%). And they can't spend what little money they can get well. The railways were better in the hands of private companies and the private freight railways are doing really good business. So, the only way out is privatization.

I agree with that.

I can't, however, agree with Nazz's assertion that Amtrak provides good service.

It SUCKS ASS.

I agree with that.

I can't, however, agree with Nazz's assertion that Amtrak provides good service.

It SUCKS ASS.

It provided great service on my last trip on them--Christmas holiday period on the City of New Orleans and the California Zephyr both ways. Not a single complaint either way, even though we were delayed 11 hours in Denver due to weather. I was treated better by the people on that train than I've been treated on many flights that weren't delayed, and if we're comparing a delayed train to a delayed or cancelled flight, it's not even close.

Now notice--I'm not comparing Amtrak to European rail service--of course they don't match up because the US won't put nearly the funding into the service here that you get in Europe. But I'd rather be on Amtrak than a Greyhound, and the actual service on the train more than competes with a plane in my experience. Now, if we could only get high-speed rail going in this country, we'd be on to something.

For those of you who don't know, a subsidy is when the government takes money from you in the form of taxes and gives it to obsolete or unprofitable ventures. In other words it's when the government completely wastes your taxes away on something that has negative to no returns.

I too have been on an AmTrak train before. My experience sucked balls. I haven't been on any other trains so I can't compare it to anything but that isn't the point. The staff as a whole was rude and the food was terrible and late. I had better service and a better experience on my flight to Vegas.

Unprofitable does not mean waste. See various nationalised health services etc.

Now, if we could only get high-speed rail going in this country, we'd be on to something.

The tracks won't support it really. It's really more of a freight network. And even places where upgrades would make sense, like the Bo-Wash corridor, there is far too much NIMBYism and politicking to make if feasible.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the idea, I fucking hate flying, it's just a non starter.

It provided great service on my last trip on them--Christmas holiday period on the City of New Orleans and the California Zephyr both ways. Not a single complaint either way, even though we were delayed 11 hours in Denver due to weather. I was treated better by the people on that train than I've been treated on many flights that weren't delayed, and if we're comparing a delayed train to a delayed or cancelled flight, it's not even close.

Now notice--I'm not comparing Amtrak to European rail service--of course they don't match up because the US won't put nearly the funding into the service here that you get in Europe. But I'd rather be on Amtrak than a Greyhound, and the actual service on the train more than competes with a plane in my experience. Now, if we could only get high-speed rail going in this country, we'd be on to something.

Try riding on the train from DC to New York - a heavily used line that makes money - it's the dirtiest, nastiest train I've ever ridden - and that includes any train I've ever ridden in any other country.

The crew is nasty as well. Surly, sullen, and idiotic.

When I was in Germany, I was in Stuttgart one Christmas Eve, and I was waiting on a snowy train platform for the train back to Weissach.

The train was 2 minutes late. TWO MINUTES.

When the train arrived on the platform, a conductor dismounted, and profusely apologized on behalf of the rail service for the lateness of the train.

THAT NEVER FUCKING HAPPENS ON AMTRAK.

NEVER EVER.

The degree of professionalism displayed by German rail workers is miles above what Amtrak employees ever display - and it's not just a matter of money.

Try riding on the train from DC to New York - a heavily used line that makes money - it's the dirtiest, nastiest train I've ever ridden - and that includes any train I've ever ridden in any other country.


I took the acela to boston once. The fucking thing was broken.

Driving is quicker and easier.

I took the acela to boston once. The fucking thing was broken.

Driving is quicker and easier.

Even when it's working, the contractors who built the track fucked it up, so that the train can't even go it's designed speed on rails that were built for it.

Try riding on the train from DC to New York - a heavily used line that makes money - it's the dirtiest, nastiest train I've ever ridden - and that includes any train I've ever ridden in any other country.

The crew is nasty as well. Surly, sullen, and idiotic.

When I was in Germany, I was in Stuttgart one Christmas Eve, and I was waiting on a snowy train platform for the train back to Weissach.

The train was 2 minutes late. TWO MINUTES.

When the train arrived on the platform, a conductor dismounted, and profusely apologized on behalf of the rail service for the lateness of the train.

THAT NEVER FUCKING HAPPENS ON AMTRAK.

NEVER EVER.

The degree of professionalism displayed by German rail workers is miles above what Amtrak employees ever display - and it's not just a matter of money.

I ride from DC to NY on Amtrak several times a year and guess what?
I've never seen it dirty, it's been on time, the crew's been at worst merely professional and at best friendly.

What trains are you riding on? I've done Acela, and I've also done coach unreserved. Neither of them has been anything like what you're suggesting.

(I do BWI-NY Penn Station and vice-versa.)

I ride from DC to NY on Amtrak several times a year and guess what?
I've never seen it dirty, it's been on time, the crew's been at worst merely professional and at best friendly.

What trains are you riding on? I've done Acela, and I've also done coach unreserved. Neither of them has been anything like what you're suggesting.

(I do BWI-NY Penn Station and vice-versa.)

Same route. Sometimes the Acela.

It's never clean. Rarely on time.

By on time, I mean within 15 minutes of where it's supposed to be, when it's supposed to be.

It's almost always severely overbooked on Fridays.

The crews are sullen and surly. Universally.

Maybe I'm spoiled by German train service.

Metropark in New Jersey (as well as Newark) is a fucking armpit of a train station.

I'm surprised you got this wrong. Fail is made of Amtrak, not the other way around.

I ride from DC to NY on Amtrak several times a year and guess what?
I've never seen it dirty, it's been on time, the crew's been at worst merely professional and at best friendly.

What trains are you riding on? I've done Acela, and I've also done coach unreserved. Neither of them has been anything like what you're suggesting.

(I do BWI-NY Penn Station and vice-versa.)

In general, public transport in the US tends to be much dirtier than in Europe. Americans don't seem to notice it though.

I wonder how the Australian rail systems fare up to the better European ones?

Same route. Sometimes the Acela.

It's never clean. Rarely on time.

By on time, I mean within 15 minutes of where it's supposed to be, when it's supposed to be.

It's almost always severely overbooked on Fridays.

The crews are sullen and surly. Universally.

Maybe I'm spoiled by German train service.

Metropark in New Jersey (as well as Newark) is a fucking armpit of a train station.

Metropark and Newark are not exactly wonderful cities either. And the stations are shared by NJ transit, so it's not as if it's only Amtrak's responsibility in the stations.

I find it hard to believe we've had such amazingly different experiences.

Metropark and Newark are not exactly wonderful cities either. And the stations are shared by NJ transit, so it's not as if it's only Amtrak's responsibility in the stations.

I find it hard to believe we've had such amazingly different experiences.

The European rail definition of "clean" and "professional" and "on time" is so far above the Amtrak definition that you're having trouble identifying what I mean by "clean" and "professional" and "on time".

Metropark and Newark are not exactly wonderful cities either. And the stations are shared by NJ transit, so it's not as if it's only Amtrak's responsibility in the stations.

I find it hard to believe we've had such amazingly different experiences.
I don't.

The European rail definition of "clean" and "professional" and "on time" is so far above the Amtrak definition that you're having trouble identifying what I mean by "clean" and "professional" and "on time".

Really?

By "on time" I mean in the station at the time they promise it, or earlier.
By "professional" I mean using please, thank you, helping you put your luggage away, answering your questions, warning you when you're getting close to your station, waking you if necessary, telling you what tourist sites you're likely to enjoy where you're headed.

By clean I mean no visible detritus on the seats on on the floors, no stains.

What definitions are you using for these words?

The European rail definition of "clean" and "professional" and "on time" is so far above the Amtrak definition that you're having trouble identifying what I mean by "clean" and "professional" and "on time".
Someone's never been on a British railway...

I took the acela to boston once. The fucking thing was broken.

Driving is quicker and easier.

It's actually faster to take a train to New York, but that's because of the rampant traffic.

Really?

By "on time" I mean in the station at the time they promise it, or earlier.
By "professional" I mean using please, thank you, helping you put your luggage away, answering your questions, warning you when you're getting close to your station, waking you if necessary, telling you what tourist sites you're likely to enjoy where you're headed.

By clean I mean no visible detritus on the seats on on the floors, no stains.

What definitions are you using for these words?

By clean, I mean I can rub my hand on the inside or outside of the train (anywhere a passenger can touch the train without having to really reach) and not come up with a dirty hand.

I've had clothes ruined just by brushing against doorways on Amtrak trains.

On time means on time to the exact second. Anything after that is late.

Every Amtrak train I've ridden on has been 15 minutes late departing or later. Including ones that START their run at Union Station, and are already sitting in the station.

Professional includes those things you listed - it also includes apologies if the train is late - even if it's only two minutes late. It means having a presentable, professional appearance - not looking and smelling like an unwashed slob in an ill-fitting uniform who wishes to God that they had some other job.

When private companies do crap like this, do you argue for nationalisation, out of interest?

No, I just don't give the company my business. See, in the market, when there's more than one company providing the same service, that gives the consumer choice, so I can choose to boycott Amtrak for another form of travel that'll get me from point A to point B.

I always attack nationalized industry.
very true. That's why you make so many threads attacking the police, the fire dept, coast guard and the military and calling for them all to be privatised every time one member of those departments make a fuck up.

Amtrak gets 0.1% of the national budget, compared with Germany (which is around 20%). And they can't spend what little money they can get well. The railways were better in the hands of private companies and the private freight railways are doing really good business. So, the only way out is privatization.
You have obviously never travelled on the British Railway network.
Better in private hands, bloody awful in private hands more like. If you want dirty, late, or just nonexistant, travel on the privatised British Railways. Getting you there, never.

very true. That's why you make so many threads attacking the police, the fire dept, coast guard and the military and calling for them all to be privatised every time one member of those departments make a fuck up.

Actually I never did that, you're confusing me with someone else.

I support the police, fire dept., coast guards and military.

very true. That's why you make so many threads attacking the police, the fire dept, coast guard and the military and calling for them all to be privatised every time one member of those departments make a fuck up.

Wait, the police, the fire dept, coast guard and the military are "industries" now? When did that happen?

You have obviously never travelled on the British Railway network.
Better in private hands, bloody awful in private hands more like. If you want dirty, late, or just nonexistant, travel on the privatised British Railways. Getting you there, never.

You've obviously never had to interact with the average American government worker, more specifically, a salt and pepper haired lesbian at the American embassy in Tokyo after a cousin has accidentally taken your passport.

Actually I never did that, you're confusing me with someone else.

I support the police, fire dept., coast guards and military.
My post was being facetious.
sigh

No, I just don't give the company my business. See, in the market, when there's more than one company providing the same service, that gives the consumer choice, so I can choose to boycott Amtrak for another form of travel that'll get me from point A to point B.
Well, I can't speak for American railways, but the British privatised system doesn't give that choice either. There's one company providing the same service on my local line - it's crap - but I can't do a damned thing about it.

You've obviously never had to interact with the average American government worker, more specifically, a salt and pepper haired lesbian at the American embassy in Tokyo after a cousin has accidentally taken your passport.

You're right, I've never had that pleasure.
My point about the railways stand however.

You're right, I've never had that pleasure.
My point about the railways stand however.

As a rule of thumb, privitized businesses work better because they're more concerned about things like profit and stock options. The government run programs and businesses however, typically don't give a rat's ass about anything.

So if the British government workers like their jobs and strive to make their railway system all around better, than yay for them. Keep it government regulated.

But here in America if you're relying on government workers to help you out, then typically you're quite fucked.

As a rule of thumb, privitized businesses work better because they're more concerned about things like profit and stock options. The government run programs and businesses however, typically don't give a rat's ass about anything.

So if the British government workers like their jobs and strive to make their railway system all around better, than yay for them. Keep it government regulated.

But here in America if you're relying on government workers to help you out, then typically you're quite fucked.

QFT!

As a rule of thumb, privitized businesses work better because they're more concerned about things like profit and stock options. The government run programs and businesses however, typically don't give a rat's ass about anything.

So if the British government workers like their jobs and strive to make their railway system all around better, than yay for them. Keep it government regulated.

But here in America if you're relying on government workers to help you out, then typically you're quite fucked.

Just sounds like poor management to me rather than a public/private divide. It also seems to be more to do with the American psyche that if they work for the government then they can screw them for everything they're worth whereas if they work for a private firm the firm screws them over instead.

In regards the government businesses not giving a rat's ass, again it seems mostly an American thing. Surely if their businesses fail then the government lose votes so the idea would be to make them successful in order to maintain support. Of course, privatising those businesses allows the government not to take responsibility so...

In regards the British Rail system, they should've renationalised it. We spend more on private companies in both State handouts and ticket prices then we ever did on BR for a worse service. Well done former Tory government.:rolleyes:

You have obviously never travelled on the British Railway network.
Better in private hands, bloody awful in private hands more like. If you want dirty, late, or just nonexistant, travel on the privatised British Railways. Getting you there, never.

From what I've heard, it varies from franchise to franchise.

From what I've heard, it varies from franchise to franchise.
The long distance services tend to be better than medium and commuter services which make up the bulk of services in the South-East and North, but are, from my experience, very expensive and oversubscribed, but the latter isn't really their fault if there's nobody prepared to front the money for more infrastructure.

By clean, I mean I can rub my hand on the inside or outside of the train (anywhere a passenger can touch the train without having to really reach) and not come up with a dirty hand. You can't expect the outside of a train to be spotless, do you expect cars to?
Do you want them to wash and wax every train before they enter the station???

I've had clothes ruined just by brushing against doorways on Amtrak trains. Outer doorways? If so blame them for not washing and waxing the trains... If they were PRIVATE they would vaccum all the dust off the tracks and dry clean your clothes if they got dirty right?


On time means on time to the exact second. Anything after that is late. OH noez 1 second late! I want you to get on your knees and apologize!

Every Amtrak train I've ridden on has been 15 minutes late departing or later. Including ones that START their run at Union Station, and are already sitting in the station. Shit happens, how do you know that they would leave on time if they were privatized... Wait you don't. Sometimes it's not the train's fault. I once had to wait 2 hours on a train trip because the entire eastern seaboard had it's rail control system crash.
No one knew where a train was, so every train east of the Applachians was forced to stop.


Professional includes those things you listed - it also includes apologies if the train is late - even if it's only two minutes late. I severely doubt that even a privatized Amtrak will apologize for being 2 minutes late.

It means having a presentable, professional appearance - not looking and smelling like an unwashed slob in an ill-fitting uniform who wishes to God that they had some other job. Ever been to Mc Donalds? Privatized company full of people in sometimes ill-fitting uniforms who wished to god that they had another job. Hmm... Yep Private is the way to go.

The market fixes E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G.!!!

D.E.L.U.D.E.D.

For those opposed to nationalized rail systems, have any of you ridden on the French SNCF? I used to ride on it all the time when I lived there and it was great. It got places on time (most of the time) and the trains were clean and well kept.

The long distance services tend to be better than medium and commuter services which make up the bulk of services in the South-East and North, but are, from my experience, very expensive and oversubscribed, but the latter isn't really their fault if there's nobody prepared to front the money for more infrastructure.

More infrastructure is indeed what's needed. The problem with privatisation is they only run what is profitable, which is not always best for the consumer. It wasn't profitable for a rail link between South Wales and the rest of Wales, so they shut it. Meaning if I want to catch a train to mid wales I have to do two and a half sides of a triangle in order to get there. That's the basic idea of nationalised industry, it's there to serve the public interest rather than make profit.

Privatised industries on things like mail and trains lead to less populated places getting cut out.

Privatised industries on things like mail and trains lead to less populated places getting cut out.
And a number of other "improvements" that harm the consumer in favor of profit.

The long distance services tend to be better than medium and commuter services which make up the bulk of services in the South-East and North, but are, from my experience, very expensive and oversubscribed, but the latter isn't really their fault if there's nobody prepared to front the money for more infrastructure.

The British had a more structured national system. Amtrak was just thrown together.

For those opposed to nationalized rail systems, have any of you ridden on the French SNCF? I used to ride on it all the time when I lived there and it was great. It got places on time (most of the time) and the trains were clean and well kept.

Most countries with nationalized rail systems had well thought out ones. Amtrak was a pile of old rails and rolling stock thrown together, very ad hoc.

I absolutely believe it. My dad had a problem with Amtrak that we should've sued for millions for, but my dad is crazy and wouldn't let the lawyer do his job.

It's actually faster to take a train to New York, but that's because of the rampant traffic.

No. It's far faster for me to drive to boston and park in a garage (door to door) than take the stupid train.